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jAZ
07-22-2008, 01:04 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25786952/

Iraqi backing of Obama plan irks White House
Says Baghdad may be using U.S. election as leverage in negotiations
The Associated Press
updated 5:13 p.m. MT, Mon., July. 21, 2008

WASHINGTON - The White House expressed unhappiness Monday about Iraqi leaders' public backing for Barack Obama's troop withdrawal timetable. And it said that Baghdad may be trying to use the U.S. presidential election as leverage in talks about the future of American's military presence and obligations in the war.

Washington and Baghdad probably will miss a July 31 target for reaching an agreement, said White House press secretary Dana Perino, characterizing the negotiations as "hard-driving."

"We don't think that talking about specific negotiating tactics or your negotiating position in the press is the best way to negotiate a deal," Perino said after Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was quoted in a magazine article supporting the 16-month troop withdrawal timeline proposed by Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate. "However, we understand that they're a sovereign country and they'll be able to do that," Perino said. "We're just not going to do it on our end."

Al-Maliki's spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, initially appeared to try to discredit the magazine report but on Monday he expressed hopes that U.S. combat forces could be out of Iraq by 2010, the timeframe proposed by Obama. Buoyed by a sharp reduction in violence, Iraqi leaders have become more assertive about the country's sovereignty, giving rise to demands for a specific plan for American forces to leave.

The Iraqi statements suggested that Iraqi officials were setting the agenda on the timing of U.S. troop withdrawals and forcing President Bush to make concessions. "Let's squeeze them," Al-Maliki was quoted by The Associated Press as telling his advisers. Bush last week reversed course and agreed to set a "general time horizon" for bringing home more U.S. troops, based on Iraq's ability to take care of its own security.

"The key issue," Perino said, "is that they understand it will not be arbitrary; it will not be a date that you just pluck out of thin air; it will not be something that Americans say, `We're going to do — we're going to leave at this date,' which is what some have suggested," she said.

The White House acknowledged the Iraqis might be trying to use the election for leverage.


"I think that a lot of other people look through the lens of a 2008 presidential election," Perino said. "Might they be? Sure. I mean, it's possible.

"Do they have their own political — domestic politics that they need to think about? Sure," Perino said. "Dare I say that they actually have domestic politics, but they do. And, so all of those things are being taken into account, but I believe that Ambassador (Ryan) Crocker and Prime Minister Maliki's negotiator are working together in a way that is very serious that they understand the implications."

She said she could not speculate about specific dates for withdrawals. "Whether or not it's 16 months, or later, or earlier, I just don't know."


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Taco John
07-22-2008, 01:29 AM
It's unbelievable to me that even one more soldier has to die for this cause when they just want us out.

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 01:41 AM
It's unbelievable to me that even one more soldier has to die for this cause when they just want us out.

Not true. I certainly do not completely agree with everything surrounding this war, but your statement that they just want us out is false. I have spent days with numerous sunni and shia families over the course of two deployments and the vast majority of my (admittedly relatively small) sample do not want us out.

Guru
07-22-2008, 02:21 AM
Not true. I certainly do not completely agree with everything surrounding this war, but your statement that they just want us out is false. I have spent days with numerous sunni and shia families over the course of two deployments and the vast majority of my (admittedly relatively small) sample do not want us out.
Probably a difference between what the leaders want and what the people want. I would go with the people.

patteeu
07-22-2008, 07:32 AM
Not true. I certainly do not completely agree with everything surrounding this war, but your statement that they just want us out is false. I have spent days with numerous sunni and shia families over the course of two deployments and the vast majority of my (admittedly relatively small) sample do not want us out.

As small as your sample is, it's infinitely larger than most of ours, including Taco John's.

mlyonsd
07-22-2008, 07:32 AM
Not true. I certainly do not completely agree with everything surrounding this war, but your statement that they just want us out is false. I have spent days with numerous sunni and shia families over the course of two deployments and the vast majority of my (admittedly relatively small) sample do not want us out.

Thanks for your service.

patteeu
07-22-2008, 07:34 AM
Probably a difference between what the leaders want and what the people want. I would go with the people.

I doubt if that's really the case. Until the Iraqi government is sure it can defend itself, I suspect there are quite a few leaders who are keen on keeping the US military around for a while. I'm sure there are others who would be happy if we left and the Iranians took over, but I doubt if the majority of key players in the Iraqi government want us out right now.

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 07:52 AM
As small as your sample is, it's infinitely larger than most of ours, including Taco John's.
Kind of. (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/poll/2008/0308opinion.pdf)

Q20 Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq?

Strongly Support
7
Somewhat Support
19
Somewhat Oppose
31
Strongly Oppose
41
Refused/don’t know
1

Q14. I am going to name a number of organizations. For each one, please tell me if you have a great deal of confidence, quite a lot of confidence, not very much confidence, or none at all?

US occupation forces

Great deal of confidence
4
Quite a lot of confidence
16
Not very much confidence
33
None at all
46
Refused/don’t know
1

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 07:53 AM
I doubt if that's really the case. Until the Iraqi government is sure it can defend itself, I suspect there are quite a few leaders who are keen on keeping the US military around for a while. I'm sure there are others who would be happy if we left and the Iranians took over, but I doubt if the majority of key players in the Iraqi government want us out right now.

It was strange. Every religious sect distrusted the other and wanted protection from each. The Iraqi Sunni’s were highly skeptical of any shia (they thought they were somehow placed there by the Iranian shia majority). In mixed religious areas (Abu Ghraib) shia would "disappear" and the sunni would never even acknowledge their existence from the day prior. I have dealt with Iranians, Syrians and Jordanians in Iraq which brought up another interesting dynamic. If my team was in a Sunni area and there were Iranians "operating" against coalition forces, they would not hesitate to drop dimes and tell us where they were. If they were Jordanian, however, they would (many times) let us know but were much more reluctant. If we were in a Shia area then that whole situation was reversed. It's like a real, live soap opera but the characters do not reappear on the next episode.

Anyway, I know I tout my service here a lot, and that is not my intention to bring attention to me. I am simply not very far removed from being right in the middle of things and want to offer my two cents.

Finally, as I have said before, I still COMPLETELY appreciate all the thank you's I still receive.

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 07:56 AM
Kind of. (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/poll/2008/0308opinion.pdf)

Q20 Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq?

March 08 %

Strongly Support
7
Somewhat Support
19
Somewhat Oppose
31
Strongly Oppose
41
Refused/don’t know
1

Yeah, I have seen that before and it is surprising to me. I'm sure it is correct but, did it take interview from Kurd, Sunni, and Shia?

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 07:58 AM
Kind of. (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/poll/2008/0308opinion.pdf)


Q14. I am going to name a number of organizations. For each one, please tell me if you have a great deal of confidence, quite a lot of confidence, not very much confidence, or none at all?

US occupation forces

Great deal of confidence
4
Quite a lot of confidence
16
Not very much confidence
33
None at all
46
Refused/don’t know
1

Ouch. That hurts. Seriously.

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 08:00 AM
Yeah, I have seen that before and it is surprising to me. I'm sure it is correct but, did it take interview from Kurd, Sunni, and Shia?

"461 sampling points were distributed proportionate to population size in each of Iraq’s 18 provinces, then in all 102 districts within the provinces, then by simple random sampling among Iraq’s nearly 11,000 villages or neighbourhoods, with urban/rural stratification at each stage.

Maps or grids were used to select random starting points within each sampling point, with household selection by random route/random interval and within-household selection by the “next-birthday” method. An average of five interviews were conducted per sampling point. Seven of the 461 sampling points were inaccessible for security reasons and were substituted with randomly selected replacements."

Ouch. That hurts. Seriously.

It doesn't make me feel too good, either.

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 08:03 AM
"461 sampling points were distributed proportionate to population size in each of Iraq’s 18 provinces, then in all 102 districts within the provinces, then by simple random sampling among Iraq’s nearly 11,000 villages or neighbourhoods, with urban/rural stratification at each stage.

Maps or grids were used to select random starting points within each sampling point, with household selection by random route/random interval and within-household selection by the “next-birthday” method. An average of five interviews were conducted per sampling point. Seven of the 461 sampling points were inaccessible for security reasons and were substituted with randomly selected replacements."



It doesn't make me feel too good, either.

It's just that all the guys there are trying very hard and really sacrificing. Kinda wish I hadn't seen that.;)

InChiefsHell
07-22-2008, 08:12 AM
I don't even agree with the premise that Iraq "backs Obama's plan". I know this link is from Glenn Beck, a conservative, but his analysis is spot on...

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/12674/

Check out the video...it's BO in his own words, flip-flopping like a fish out of water...

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 09:09 AM
It's just that all the guys there are trying very hard and really sacrificing. Kinda wish I hadn't seen that.;)
I promise you, it hasn't been your guys' fault.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 09:11 AM
Maliki wants B.O. to win the election because the sooner we get out of Iraq, the sooner Malaki can finish cleaning out all the Sunni's and Christians.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 09:30 AM
It's just that all the guys there are trying very hard and really sacrificing. Kinda wish I hadn't seen that.;)

You were asked to do an all but impossible task. The good news is that signs seem to point to the fact that it's going to be coming to an end relatively soon.

I hope that's true because all of your (all) good work is coming at tremendous sacrifice.

Thank you to all.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 09:31 AM
Maliki wants B.O. to win the election because the sooner we get out of Iraq, the sooner Malaki can finish cleaning out all the Sunni's and Christians.

Bush picked Hitler to run Iraq? Wow.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 09:35 AM
Bush picked Hitler to run Iraq? Wow.

I was always under the impression Malaki was chosen by the elected parliament.

Taco John
07-22-2008, 10:43 AM
It's just that all the guys there are trying very hard and really sacrificing.


No one here doubts the sacrifice of the troops. The doubt is in the ever-changing mission in itself. And regardless of what your sample of people will say to your face, every poll I've ever seen coming out of Iraq confirms what I said: they don't want us there. There's even been polls that have shown that a healthy number of them think that it's legitimate to SHOOT at coalition forces. Meanwhile, I'm back home reading these numbers and am being called anti-troop because I want them to come home from a place where they don't want us, and think it's ok to kill our guys.

And that's not even mentioning the numbers at home, which show Americans don't really care about the mission.

A lot of good American lives are being wasted for an unworthy cause.

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 02:33 PM
No one here doubts the sacrifice of the troops. The doubt is in the ever-changing mission in itself. And regardless of what your sample of people will say to your face, every poll I've ever seen coming out of Iraq confirms what I said: they don't want us there. There's even been polls that have shown that a healthy number of them think that it's legitimate to SHOOT at coalition forces. Meanwhile, I'm back home reading these numbers and am being called anti-troop because I want them to come home from a place where they don't want us, and think it's ok to kill our guys.

And that's not even mentioning the numbers at home, which show Americans don't really care about the mission.

A lot of good American lives are being wasted for an unworthy cause.

Valid point. And I agree my sample may have been blowing smoke up my a$$. I mean here are 4 Marines that are staying at your house for the next 3-5 days. They are obviously going to tell me what I want to hear.

I just WANT to think that I developed good relationships with those families. I got to know their kids, they taught me Arabic and I helped them with their homework (when I wasn't "working") I talked soccer and American Idol with the father and ate many meals with them. I value those relationships and I simply don't want to believe that those Iraqi's that I become close with would tell me anything but the truth.

I see exactly your point. I'm not sure if I don't agree with it or I don't want to agree with it. Obviously, I want us all home ASAP, but not until its absolutely clear that we can.

I know I am sounding cheesy, and that is not my intention.

HC_Chief
07-22-2008, 02:52 PM
Valid point. And I agree my sample may have been blowing smoke up my a$$. I mean here are 4 Marines that are staying at your house for the next 3-5 days. They are obviously going to tell me what I want to hear.

I just WANT to think that I developed good relationships with those families. I got to know their kids, they taught me Arabic and I helped them with their homework (when I wasn't "working") I talked soccer and American Idol with the father and ate many meals with them. I value those relationships and I simply don't want to believe that those Iraqi's that I become close with would tell me anything but the truth.

I see exactly your point. I'm not sure if I don't agree with it or I don't want to agree with it. Obviously, I want us all home ASAP, but not until its absolutely clear that we can.

I know I am sounding cheesy, and that is not my intention.

Thanks for your first-hand insight and your service. :thumb: I have a tremendous amount of respect for all that you and your brothers (and sisters) in arms do. Semper Fi.

Taco John
07-22-2008, 05:49 PM
Valid point. And I agree my sample may have been blowing smoke up my a$$. I mean here are 4 Marines that are staying at your house for the next 3-5 days. They are obviously going to tell me what I want to hear.

I just WANT to think that I developed good relationships with those families. I got to know their kids, they taught me Arabic and I helped them with their homework (when I wasn't "working") I talked soccer and American Idol with the father and ate many meals with them. I value those relationships and I simply don't want to believe that those Iraqi's that I become close with would tell me anything but the truth.

I see exactly your point. I'm not sure if I don't agree with it or I don't want to agree with it. Obviously, I want us all home ASAP, but not until its absolutely clear that we can.

I know I am sounding cheesy, and that is not my intention.



Nothing cheezy about it. Personal relationships are the most important thing in the world. Which is the number one reason I'm against this war, only I'd rather see our soldiers developing personal relationships with their wives, their children, and people in their community, and not over on another continent in a policing the world conflict, empowering the Dawa party.

I wish people understood who the Dawa party is, and what our intervention has done to empower them. It's horrific that a single drop of American soldier blood has been shed to empower an Iranian backed political wing.

I appreciate your service. Unfortunately, so does the Dawa party. Look them up, and find out who blood is being shed for.