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View Full Version : Elections BREAKING... John McCain/Mitt Romney 08


recxjake
07-22-2008, 03:01 PM
1

Chiefnj2
07-22-2008, 03:03 PM
All of Romney's testicle fondling payed off.

McCain has to do something the try to get in the news and keep Obama out of the spotlight.

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 03:05 PM
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Very good. Very good.

noa
07-22-2008, 03:06 PM
No surprise there

blueballs
07-22-2008, 03:06 PM
i though he was going to go with the cross dresser

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 03:06 PM
Oh I like this!

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 03:07 PM
I like Mitt Romney, but it seems like they are on opposite ends of the conservative political spectrum.

penchief
07-22-2008, 03:07 PM
I'm not sure how Romney will impact McCain's chances but I know I'm going to get sick of hearing his schtick between now and November.

All Romney will be talking about is how we have to have more tax cuts for the wealthy and more deregulation, blah, blah, blah....

banyon
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
Foreign Policy and Economics Vs.... Nothing... McCain will win

"more of the same" vs. "change" + <30% presidential approval = loss

Thig Lyfe
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
hahahaha I hope this is true.

recxjake
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
I like Mitt Romney, but it seems like they are on opposite ends of the conservative political spectrum.

And that is why McCain picked him... to bring the GOP together, make independents worried about the ecomomy come over... etc

A VP is supposed to create a bigger tent... thats what Romney does.

Thig Lyfe
07-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Foreign Policy and Economics Vs.... Nothing... McCain will win

And we all know you're a veritable Nostradamus when it comes to political prognostication.

markk
07-22-2008, 03:11 PM
Will the corporate media break their embargo on any McCain coverage?

Or will they continue to faint at Pope Obama I's masses all over the globe?

bkkcoh
07-22-2008, 03:11 PM
It will be interesting to see how the MSM spins this. Also, to see how much of a bounce this might give McCain.

HC_Chief
07-22-2008, 03:13 PM
I would have preferred a Romney/McCain ticket, but I digress.

AustinChief
07-22-2008, 03:13 PM
And if true McCain just lost my vote...

markk
07-22-2008, 03:13 PM
it's a solid, safe choice.

McCain does well with moderates and independents. Romney did well with conservatives during the primary cycle and won the governorship in an extremely liberal state. Raised a lot of money too.

There are also 6 or 7 million Mormons in the United States, but they were probably already voting conservative.

Mizzou_8541
07-22-2008, 03:14 PM
And that is why McCain picked him... to bring the GOP together, make independents worried about the ecomomy over... etc

A VP is supposed to create a bigger tent... thats what Romney does.

Noted.

BigCatDaddy
07-22-2008, 03:19 PM
Isn't he supposed to help in Michigan or somewhere inthe NW?

penguinz
07-22-2008, 03:19 PM
Foreign Policy and Economics Vs.... Nothing... McCain will win
McCain has no foreign policy other than lets invade everyone. Hell... He does not even have any idea where the ME countries are located.

BigMeatballDave
07-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Wow. This election's candidates are even more retarded than the current POTUS.

markk
07-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Isn't he supposed to help in Michigan or somewhere inthe NW?

his father was the governor of michigan.

recxjake
07-22-2008, 03:21 PM
Isn't he supposed to help in Michigan or somewhere inthe NW?

His dad was governor of Michigan... McCain is down a few points w/out Romney... with him... they put it very much into play. He should help big in Colorado and Nevada...

Bottom line, this guy got second place in the GOP primary... a lot of people voted for him, and liked him more than McCain... He gracefully excited the race... unlike Hillary.... and started helping McCain right away...

If its true.... its a very solid, smart pick...

Guru
07-22-2008, 03:22 PM
No surprise there

It was the only logical choice he could make. Especially since he desperately needs the conservative vote.

Ultra Peanut
07-22-2008, 03:24 PM
McCain has no foreign policy other than lets invade everyone.I'll bet McCain doesn't want to invade Czechoslovakia.

noa
07-22-2008, 03:24 PM
It was the only logical choice he could make. Especially since he desperately needs the conservative vote.

Yeah. The signs had been coming for a while. One I read was that Romney swallowed the debt his campaign incurred all by himself. That indicated that he wanted to help out the party and not just get his own a$$ bailed out like Hillary does.

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 03:24 PM
Brilliant move if this is true. Romney would be the one guy involved in this election that truly understands finance and economics. He will have major credibility at a time like this.

banyon
07-22-2008, 03:24 PM
ROFL... is that why McCain is up 10% in Ohio now?

:spock: He's up six points and within the MOE in your own poll, genious.

Ultra Peanut
07-22-2008, 03:25 PM
It was the only logical choice he could make. Especially since he desperately needs the conservative vote.Picking Mitt Romney to bolster your conservative standing is p. funny.

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 03:26 PM
I would have preferred a Romney/McCain ticket, but I digress.

Same here.

SBK
07-22-2008, 03:29 PM
Good pick.

markk
07-22-2008, 03:29 PM
dont really see why this is that big of a deal. romney is better than mccain, but who would vote based on the VP candidate? you really like that guy going to funerals and showing up to the senate once every couple years? doesn't make any sense to me.

Taco John
07-22-2008, 03:31 PM
I wonder how well this tested among evangelicals. McCain and Romney seems to be the ultimate ticket to depress that voter base - the largest in the country.

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 03:31 PM
Larry Kudlow is going to bust a nut on live tv tonight.

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 03:32 PM
I wonder how well this tested among evangelicals. McCain and Romney seems to be the ultimate ticket to depress that voter base - the largest in the country.

McCain's also going to now make Romney's flip-flopping a big focus of his own campaign. Yum.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 03:32 PM
dont really see why this is that big of a deal. romney is better than mccain, but who would vote based on the VP candidate? you really like that guy going to funerals and showing up to the senate once every couple years? doesn't make any sense to me.

Considering the age of McCain though I think it has more influence than in the past election cycles.

Guru
07-22-2008, 03:34 PM
Picking Mitt Romney to bolster your conservative standing is p. funny.

He was the only real conservative choice he had though. He obviously was not going to ask Paul or Barr.

markk
07-22-2008, 03:34 PM
Considering the age of McCain though I think it has more influence than in the past election cycles.

Good point.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 03:35 PM
Good point.

Thanks but I guess we will see in upcoming polls if that has any vaildity of not....

SBK
07-22-2008, 03:36 PM
Considering the age of McCain though I think it has more influence than in the past election cycles.

Yes.

Guru
07-22-2008, 03:37 PM
I wonder how well this tested among evangelicals. McCain and Romney seems to be the ultimate ticket to depress that voter base - the largest in the country.

Meh. The public can get through that. Personally, I just want the candidates to believe in God. I'm sick and tired of DC trying to eliminate God from everything. These past couple of years have been a nice change of pace.

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 03:37 PM
He was the only real conservative choice he had though. He obviously was not going to ask Paul or Barr.

Real conservative?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a9IJUkYUbvI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a9IJUkYUbvI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

YOU WILL NOT SEE ME WAVERING ON THAT

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
I wonder how well this tested among evangelicals. McCain and Romney seems to be the ultimate ticket to depress that voter base - the largest in the country.


You know though honestly a lot of my evangelical friends in Missouri like Romney. (I know I don't have data, I am providing an example from my own life.

Guru
07-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Real conservative?

<object width="425" height="344">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a9IJUkYUbvI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

YOU WILL NOT SEE ME WAVERING ON THAT

I didn't say he was the perfect choice. just the closest option available to McCain.

Pitt Gorilla
07-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Romney likely won't help in Iowa (not that it matters to many non-Iowans).

markk
07-22-2008, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
I wonder how well this tested among evangelicals. McCain and Romney seems to be the ultimate ticket to depress that voter base - the largest in the country.


You know though honestly a lot of my evangelical friends in Missouri like Romney. (I know I don't have data, I am providing an example from my own life.

he moved to the right quite a bit the past few years. during the primary season he sounded like a staunch dyed in the wool type. i dont have any strong feelings on him one way or another.

it's one of those things, if a guy moves and he moves a direction you like, you don't care because he's "coming around". if he moves away from you then you talk about how he's gone insane, like the left is talking about mccain. but, curiously, how they are not talking about obama for doing the same.

recxjake
07-22-2008, 03:42 PM
Romney likely won't help in Iowa (not that it matters to many non-Iowans).

Iowa is going blue.

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 03:43 PM
I didn't say he was the perfect choice. just the closest option available to McCain.

Jindal's considerably more conservative than Romney, he's just to the extreme.

Pitt Gorilla
07-22-2008, 03:44 PM
if he moves away from you then you talk about how he's gone insane, like the left is talking about mccain. but, curiously, how they are not talking about obama for doing the same.Do you have any evidence for this trend?

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 03:45 PM
he moved to the right quite a bit the past few years. during the primary season he sounded like a staunch dyed in the wool type. i dont have any strong feelings on him one way or another.

it's one of those things, if a guy moves and he moves a direction you like, you don't care because he's "coming around". if he moves away from you then you talk about how he's gone insane, like the left is talking about mccain. but, curiously, how they are not talking about obama for doing the same.


Yea I guess it is all in perspective of your side of the issues and policy.

penguinz
07-22-2008, 03:47 PM
Don;t you find it odd that the Mormon is the only one to run for the Rep Pres Candidacy that has had only one wife?

Guru
07-22-2008, 03:48 PM
Jindal's considerably more conservative than Romney, he's just to the extreme.
I don't know anything about him at all. Think I caught him on Beck once or twice though. Didn't wow me but I didn't really know who he was either.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 03:48 PM
Iowa is going blue.

Speaking of that I wonder if this helps McCain's chances in Michigan and Nevada? We know Mass. will go blue, Utah will just be dark red now. :)

markk
07-22-2008, 03:49 PM
Do you have any evidence for this trend?

ask the hard left, the anti-war people, those who were outraged by FISA, people who hate NAFTA, gun-control advocates, and the abortion industry, since he said that partial birth abortion bans need not have an exemption for mental as well as physical health... ask those people if he's been consistent with primary season...

the founder of daily kos said he was starting to look like every other politician out there. that ought to tell us something

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 03:53 PM
ask the hard left, the anti-war people, those who were outraged by FISA, people who hate NAFTA, gun-control advocates, and the abortion industry, since he said that partial birth abortion bans need not have an exemption for mental as well as physical health... ask those people if he's been consistent with primary season...

the founder of daily kos said he was starting to look like every other politician out there. that ought to tell us something

McCain and Obama have both run to the center for the General. It's usually more of an emphasizing of positions they have that they think will play better with the center, not a complete flipping of their previous stance.

That's entirely different than doing a complete 180 on every moral issue you've stood for the in past. There's a reason Romney was pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-affirmative action, anti-Reagan, etc.., when he was running in Massachusetts and the inverse of all those things when he was running for the Republican nomination.

Pitt Gorilla
07-22-2008, 03:53 PM
ask the hard left, the anti-war people, those who were outraged by FISA, people who hate NAFTA, gun-control advocates, and the abortion industry, since he said that partial birth abortion bans need not have an exemption for mental as well as physical health... ask those people if he's been consistent with primary season...

the founder of daily kos said he was starting to look like every other politician out there. that ought to tell us somethingSo, you're saying that people ARE talking about it? You just said that people are NOT talking about it. Which is it?

markk
07-22-2008, 03:56 PM
So, you're saying that people ARE talking about it? You just said that people are NOT talking about it. Which is it?

sorry. i mean, people other places are, but people here seem to be denying that he has moved at all.

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 03:57 PM
sorry. i mean, people other places are, but people here seem to be denying that he has moved at all.

Clearly.

McCain and Obama have both run to the center for the General.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:01 PM
The Republicans are using the bland and blander ticket to get votes. Romney is a ****ing flip-flopper.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:07 PM
The Republicans are using the bland and blander ticket to get votes. Romney is a ****ing flip-flopper.

Wow what great insight to your post, I think I will change my vote b/c of this. :rolleyes:

I understand the flip flopper arguement on social issues considering the comments he has made in the past. But to say he is a bland pick? I think he would be a great addition to the McCain camp considering that he is a more youthful and energetic speaker than McCain. In addition to his economic knowledge and his ability to convey those concepts is very sound. Bland would not be the word I would use to describe him.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:07 PM
The Republicans are using the bland and blander ticket to get votes. Romney is a ****ing flip-flopper.

Romney is a politician. They all flip-flop. None of them are above that.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:09 PM
Wow what great insight to your post, I think I will change my vote b/c of this. :rolleyes:

I understand the flip flopper arguement on social issues considering the comments he has made in the past. But to say he is a bland pick? I think he would be a great addition to the McCain camp considering that he is a more youthful and energetic speaker than McCain. In addition to his economic knowledge and his ability to convey those concepts is very sound. Bland would not be the word I would use to describe him.
What economic knowledge?
The guy is no more of an economist than I am.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:10 PM
Romney is a politician. They all flip-flop. None of them are above that.

To be honest though I still don't like it. I do understand he was from a very liberal state in Mass. and it would have been political suicide to be more conservative on social issues.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:11 PM
To be honest though I still don't like it. I do understand he was from a very liberal state in Mass. and it would have been political suicide to be more conservative on social issues.

Thats what stinks about the electoral process though. Its rare that we actually have somebody WORTH voting for anymore.:(

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:12 PM
Thats what stinks about the electoral process though. Its rare that we actually have somebody WORTH voting for anymore.:(That's why you have to vote your conscience and screw the political affiliation tripe.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:13 PM
What economic knowledge?
The guy is no more of an economist than I am.

Have you ever heard him speak? He is vary good conveying his thoughts about his view of the economy.
Also just a few things....

Romney graduated from a joint Juris Doctor/Master of Business Administration program coordinated between Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School. He graduated cum laude from the law school and was named a Baker Scholar for graduating in the top five percent of his business school class.
Romney was CEO of Bain & Company, a management consulting firm, and co-founder of Bain Capital, a private equity investment firm. After his business career and serving as the CEO of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

No more of an economist than you?

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:14 PM
What economic knowledge?
The guy is no more of an economist than I am.

The man is an incredible business success, that doesn't happen by either accident or stupidity. One must know a thing or two in order to achieve that level of uber success.

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:15 PM
Have you ever heard him speak? He is vary good conveying his thoughts about his view of the economy.
Also just a few things....

Romney graduated from a joint Juris Doctor/Master of Business Administration program coordinated between Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School. He graduated cum laude from the law school and was named a Baker Scholar for graduating in the top five percent of his business school class.
Romney was CEO of Bain & Company, a management consulting firm, and co-founder of Bain Capital, a private equity investment firm. After his business career and serving as the CEO of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

No more of an economist than you?

Romney doesn't post on Chiefsplanet so he don't know %(#@!!!

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:15 PM
Thats what stinks about the electoral process though. Its rare that we actually have somebody WORTH voting for anymore.:(

I hear you and agree.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:17 PM
That's why you have to vote your conscience and screw the political affiliation tripe.
I do vote my conscience. Every single election. This year, I will take any candidate over Obama. That being said, I have no choice but to vote for McCain.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:17 PM
Romney doesn't post on Chiefsplanet so he don't know %(#@!!!

ROFL

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:17 PM
The man is an incredible business success, that doesn't happen by either accident or stupidity. One must know a thing or two in order to achieve that level of uber success.
Running your own business is hell of alot easier than running the country. Again, he IS NOT an economist, no matter how many want to spin it that way.

I guess I'm over-qualified than, too.

Meet BCF, chief economist because he has his own business.

MGRS13
07-22-2008, 04:17 PM
Wow two extremely rich old guys. The GOP is really branching out this year. I love hearing the "elitist" argument against Obama, when hes running against a two people who have no idea how real Americans live.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:18 PM
Wow two extremely rich old guys. The GOP is really branching out this year. I love hearing the "elitist" argument against Obama, when hes running against a two people who have no idea how real Americans live.
I would argue that Obama has no clue as well.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
Running your own business is hell of alot easier than running the country. Again, he IS NOT an economist, no matter how many want to spin it that way.

I guess I'm over-qualified than, too.

Meet BCF, chief economist because he has his own business.

I never said he was an economist...please read my posts. I said he knows a lot about the economy and that he can convey his thoughts well. Please dont spin my posts, spin your own.

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
Wow two extremely rich old guys. The GOP is really branching out this year. I love hearing the "elitist" argument against Obama, when hes running against a two people who have no idea how real Americans live.

Elitist is an attitude sherlock.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:21 PM
I do vote my conscience. Every single election. This year, I will take any candidate over Obama. That being said, I have no choice but to vote for McCain.So you'd rather vote for a crook, who illegally took money from Charles Keating, than a person with some moral fortitude?

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 04:21 PM
Have you ever heard him speak? He is vary good conveying his thoughts about his view of the economy.
Also just a few things....

Romney graduated from a joint Juris Doctor/Master of Business Administration program coordinated between Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School. He graduated cum laude from the law school and was named a Baker Scholar for graduating in the top five percent of his business school class.
Romney was CEO of Bain & Company, a management consulting firm, and co-founder of Bain Capital, a private equity investment firm. After his business career and serving as the CEO of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

No more of an economist than you?

Heh, you didn't know BigChiefFan was actually the CEO and founder of Goldman Sachs? :)

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:21 PM
What economic knowledge?
The guy is no more of an economist than I am.

You were the one that first refered to him as an economist.

whatsmynameagain
07-22-2008, 04:22 PM
Meh. The public can get through that. Personally, I just want the candidates to believe in God. I'm sick and tired of DC trying to eliminate God from everything. These past couple of years have been a nice change of pace.

you want the candidates to believe in things that are non existent? that's what your saying? one thing that I hate about all politicians is the religion factor. can people be moral and live a good life without religion being a part of it? I feel I do as best I can.

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 04:22 PM
Wow two extremely rich old guys. The GOP is really branching out this year. I love hearing the "elitist" argument against Obama, when hes running against a two people who have no idea how real Americans live.

No politicians that reach this level know how the middle class lives. So does that mean you'll just never vote again?

Thig Lyfe
07-22-2008, 04:23 PM
This is getting picked up literally nowhere. Not by Wonkette, not by Drudge, not by anyone.

I'm guessing this site is just as reliable a political barometer as Jake himself.

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:23 PM
Running your own business is hell of alot easier than running the country. Again, he IS NOT an economist, no matter how many want to spin it that way.

I guess I'm over-qualified than, too.

Meet BCF, chief economist because he has his own business.

The President is the CEO of America basically. The only true difference I see is as Commander in Chief.

The President controls vision, and direction of the nation, and has tons of employees and advisers who do all the hard work--just like the CEO of a big company.

A little different, yes, but much the same.

Added benefit of a business man in the white house is that he'll have a direct understanding of how policy will affect small businesses in the US, and not just have theories based upon political statement.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:23 PM
Heh, you didn't know BigChiefFan was actually the CEO and founder of Goldman Sachs? :)

I wasn't aware of that :)

MGRS13
07-22-2008, 04:24 PM
Elitist is an attitude sherlock.
No elitist is exactly what Rommney and McCain are. You think they would go the same store as you, or eat where you eat. They are both WAY out of touch with middle america, of course any one who matters in the GOP is also. I was just saying the elitist argument makes no sense when the comp. is Mac and Rom.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:24 PM
You said he had economic knowledge as if he were so qualified for the job.

An expert at the economy=economist. Which is it? Is he an expert on the economy or not?

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 04:24 PM
Running your own business is hell of alot easier than running the country. Again, he IS NOT an economist, no matter how many want to spin it that way.

I guess I'm over-qualified than, too.

Meet BCF, chief economist because he has his own business.

Are you seriously comparing whatever small business you run to Bain Capital? Do you know how ridiculous and ignorant that makes you look?

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:24 PM
you want the candidates to believe in things that are non existent? that's what your saying? one thing that I hate about all politicians is the religion factor. can people be moral and live a good life without religion being a part of it? I feel I do as best I can.

God is not religion. Religion is a system that is man made. Heck, Jesus himself hated religion.

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:25 PM
This is getting picked up literally nowhere. Not by Wonkette, not by Drudge, not by anyone.

I'm guessing this site is just as reliable a political barometer as Jake himself.

LOL....I know I have been checking drudge and nothing, I wonder if all the Romneyites are just having a wet dream lol. (To be fair personally I like the pick if true).

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:25 PM
No elitist is exactly what Rommney and McCain are. You think they would go the same store as you, or eat where you eat. They are both WAY out of touch with middle america, of course any one who matters in the GOP is also. I was just saying the elitist argument makes no sense when the comp. is Mac and Rom.

You don't understand elitism. Fair enough....

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 04:26 PM
The man is an incredible business success, that doesn't happen by either accident or stupidity. One must know a thing or two in order to achieve that level of uber success.

True. He got a great return on all that money he invested during the primary.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:27 PM
So you'd rather vote for a crook, who illegally took money from Charles Keating, than a person with some moral fortitude?

I would rather not vote for either one. However, I do feel votes count. I have no love for Obama and never will. Spin it however you want. If I thought Barr actually had a shot to win or even place a CLOSE third, I would vote for him.

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:27 PM
True. He got a great return on all that money he invested during the primary.

Where did all that money come from? STFU

Bearcat2005
07-22-2008, 04:28 PM
True. He got a great return on all that money he invested during the primary.

LOL! Suckling from the McCain tit.

Thig Lyfe
07-22-2008, 04:28 PM
No elitist is exactly what Rommney and McCain are. You think they would go the same store as you, or eat where you eat. They are both WAY out of touch with middle america, of course any one who matters in the GOP is also. I was just saying the elitist argument makes no sense when the comp. is Mac and Rom.

The elitist argument makes no sense because electing somebody we'd "like to have a beer with" is what got us into the 8-year-long clusterf*ck we're in now.

Obama's smarter, richer, fitter and more cultured than most of us. So the f*ck what? Why wouldn't we want somebody like that to be our international representative, rather than some moronic malapropism machine? McCain and Romney are no less "out-of-touch" than Obama, and at least Obama worked with real people in the southside of Chicago for all those years.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:30 PM
The President is the CEO of America basically. The only true difference I see is as Commander in Chief.

The President controls vision, and direction of the nation, and has tons of employees and advisers who do all the hard work--just like the CEO of a big company.

A little different, yes, but much the same.

Added benefit of a business man in the white house is that he'll have a direct understanding of how policy will affect small businesses in the US, and not just have theories based upon political statement.
Tell it to someone who isn't an economist.:D

I should be lecturing you, afterall I'm more than qualified.

Again, Romney is a LAWYER.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:34 PM
Are you seriously comparing whatever small business you run to Bain Capital? Do you know how ridiculous and ignorant that makes you look?

It's said tongue in cheek.

I'm showing that Romney is no more of an economist than any other CEO in the corporate world.



I guess because Bush ****ed over people in the oil business(prior to presidency) he's a great ****ing leader, too? Bush was a CEO-what a great grasp he has on the economy, wouldn't you say?


Again said tongue-in-cheek.

banyon
07-22-2008, 04:35 PM
LOL....I know I have been checking drudge and nothing, I wonder if all the Romneyites are just having a wet dream lol. (To be fair personally I like the pick if true).

This is just a blog post.

BREAKING- ROMNEY VP PICK
I am writing this in conjunction with Kavon, but according to several sources, Romney is the VP pick.

Remember who broke this story first.

by Jason Bonham @ 2:57 pm. Filed under John McCain, Mitt Romney, Veep Watch

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:36 PM
I would rather not vote for either one. However, I do feel votes count. I have no love for Obama and never will. Spin it however you want. If I thought Barr actually had a shot to win or even place a CLOSE third, I would vote for him.
So you choose the crook?

Yea, we should be out of this mess in no time.

SBK
07-22-2008, 04:37 PM
Tell it to someone who isn't an economist.:D

I should be lecturing you, afterall I'm more than qualified.

Again, Romney is a LAWYER.

You think you're the only guy with his own company? ;)

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 04:37 PM
It's said tongue in cheek.

I'm showing that Romney is no more of an economist than any other CEO in the corporate world.


But Romney founded and ran one of the best private equity firms in the world - it's not as if he was CEO of the downtown Gates BBQ. To reach that level of success at such an esteemed investment firm, a person has to have an extremely high level of intelligence and charisma, along with an amazing understanding of finance, value, and risk. That is the type of person I want behind the scenes making important financial decisions for this country.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:38 PM
You think you're the only guy with his own company? ;)
No, I think we are all overqualified to become VPs of this great nation of ours.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:41 PM
But Romney founded and ran one of the best private equity firms in the world - it's not as if he was CEO of Gate's BBQ. To reach that level of success at such an esteemed investment firm, a person has to have an extremely high level of intelligence and charisma, along with an amazing understand of finance, value, and risk. That is the type of person I want behind the scenes making important financial decisions for this country.

Need I remind you W. went to Harvard business school, too?

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 04:42 PM
Need I remind you W. went to Harvard business school, too?

That has nothing to do with what I just wrote.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 04:45 PM
Wow, we'll see if he just blew his "VP bounce" on a week when Obama will likely steal his thunder right back.

At least I was 1/2 right.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:45 PM
So you choose the crook?

Yea, we should be out of this mess in no time.

Then all of the politicians are crooks by your standards.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:47 PM
That has nothing to do with what I just wrote.

Bullshit, you are stating that business school equates to being a great economist. I mentioned George W. which shows that your statement is false or are you now going to tell me how great the economy is?

Silock
07-22-2008, 04:48 PM
And that is why McCain picked him... to bring the GOP together, make independents worried about the ecomomy come over... etc

A VP is supposed to create a bigger tent... thats what Romney does.

The only tent Romney creates is the one in your pants.

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 04:48 PM
Wow, we'll see if he just blew his "VP bounce" on a week when Obama will likely steal his thunder right back.

At least I was 1/2 right.

The only people who seem to care about Romney had already resigned themselves to the fact that they'd be voting for McCain in November anyway.

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 04:50 PM
Bullshit, you are stating that business school equates to being a great economist. I mentioned George W. which shows that your statement is false or are you now going to tell me how great the economy is?

Can you read? Here is my post again:

But Romney founded and ran one of the best private equity firms in the world - it's not as if he was CEO of the downtown Gates BBQ. To reach that level of success at such an esteemed investment firm, a person has to have an extremely high level of intelligence and charisma, along with an amazing understanding of finance, value, and risk. That is the type of person I want behind the scenes making important financial decisions for this country.

Not once did I mention a school he attended, but I did mention his professional success in the finance industry.

Saying Bush went to Harvard as a response to my point makes absolutely no sense.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:51 PM
Then all of the politicians are crooks by your standards.
Oh really, do all politians associate with the Mafia? Do they all get in bed and spend vacations with people who commit fraud? Do they all have to go through congressional hearings for taking campaign finances from criminals?Keep grasping at straws, your argument holds no water.

Guru
07-22-2008, 04:54 PM
Oh really, do all politians associate with the Mafia? Do they all get in bed and spend vacations with people who commit fraud? Do they all have to go through congressional hearings for taking campaign finances from criminals?Keep grasping at straws, your argument holds no water.

If I was forced to only vote for a perfectly moral candidate, I would be screwed. I don't believe there are any left.

I thought we were having a decent conversation but I can see I was wrong.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:56 PM
Can you read? Here is my post again:



Not once did I mention a school he attended, but I did mention his professional success in the finance industry.

Saying Bush went to Harvard as a response to my point makes absolutely no sense.
Again, Bush was the CEO of an OIL company. He was a big wig with the Texas Rangers-How did that turn out for the country?


See that's the point, just because somebody does something well in the business world does not equate to success at running a country, proof:none other than George W., himself.


Again, Romney and Bush both have the same type of experience in the business world and again, how's that working out for us?

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 04:58 PM
If I was forced to only vote for a perfectly moral candidate, I would be screwed. I don't believe there are any left.

I thought we were having a decent conversation but I can see I was wrong.

There's a difference between having grayed morals and being a criminal, no?

We are having a good conversation, I think you just don't like that the truth about McCain.

eazyb81
07-22-2008, 05:02 PM
Again, Bush was the CEO of an OIL company. He was a big wig with the Texas Rangers-How did that turn out for the country?


See that's the point, just because somebody does something well in the business world does not equate to success at running a country, proof:none other than George W., himself.


Again, Romney and Bush both have the same type of experience in the business world and again, how's that working out for us?

Ah, okay, so Bush went to great schools, was successful, and had money, so since he didn't work out we should never look for those attributes in a president. That's brilliant.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 05:04 PM
Ah, okay, so Bush went to great schools, was successful, and had money, so since he didn't work out we should never look for those attributes in a president. That's brilliant.
NO, I'm saying that Romney isn't the end and and be all of the economy like some are inferring he is.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 05:06 PM
NO, I'm saying that Romney isn't the end and and be all of the economy like some are inferring he is.


B.O. is?

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 05:12 PM
B.O. is?

Yea, I'd say this about covers it...


The Problem
Wages are Stagnant as Prices Rise: While wages remain flat, the costs of basic necessities are increasing. The cost of in-state college tuition has grown 35 percent over the past five years. Health care costs have risen four times faster than wages over the past six years. And the personal savings rate is now the lowest it's been since the Great Depression.

Tax Cuts for Wealthy Instead of Middle Class: The Bush tax cuts give those who earn over $1 million dollars a tax cut nearly 160 times greater than that received by middle-income Americans. At the same time, this administration has refused to tackle health care, education and housing in a manner that benefits the middle class.

Barack Obama's Plan
Jumpstart the Economy
Provide Additional Tax Rebates to American Workers: The economy has continued to weaken significantly, despite congressional action to provide immediate tax rebates to American consumers. Stimulus: $20 billion.
Establish a $10 billion Foreclosure Prevention Fund: Given the downturn in the economy, Obama is calling for immediate creation of his Foreclosure Prevention Fund that will dramatically increase emergency pre-foreclosure counseling, and will help families facing foreclosure to responsibly refinance their mortgages or sell their homes. Obama’s plan will not help speculators, people buying vacation homes or people that falsely represented their incomes. It is meant to help responsible homeowners through this difficult period. Stimulus: $10 billion.
Provide $10 billion in Relief for State and Local Governments Hardest-Hit by the Housing Crisis to Prevent Cuts in Vital Services: Because of the housing crisis and the weakening economy, many state and local governments are facing significant revenue shortfalls. Barack Obama believes that in the areas hardest-hit by the housing crisis we should provide immediate, temporary funding to state and local governments so that the decline in property values does not cause them to slash critical public services and cut vital infrastructure spending. Stimulus: $10 billion.
Extend and Expand Unemployment Insurance: Barack Obama believes we must extend and strengthen the Unemployment Insurance (UI) program to address the needs of the long-term unemployed, who currently make up nearly one-fifth of the unemployed and are often older workers who have lost their jobs in manufacturing or other industries and have a difficult time finding new employment. Expanding UI is one of the most effective ways to combat economic turmoil; every dollar invested in UI benefits results in $1.73 in economic output. Obama is calling for a temporary expansion of the UI program for those who have exhausted their current eligibility. Stimulus: $10 billion.
Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
Obama will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.

Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.
Eliminate Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less than $50,000: Barack Obama will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This proposal will eliminate income taxes for 7 million seniors and provide these seniors with an average savings of $1,400 each year. Under the Obama plan, 27 million American seniors will also not need to file an income tax return.
Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.
Trade
Obama believes that trade with foreign nations should strengthen the American economy and create more American jobs. He will stand firm against agreements that undermine our economic security.

Fight for Fair Trade: Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. He will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports.
Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.
Improve Transition Assistance: To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama would update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs.
Invest in the Manufacturing Sector and Create 5 Million New Green Jobs
Invest in our Next Generation Innovators and Job Creators: Obama will create an Advanced Manufacturing Fund to identify and invest in the most compelling advanced manufacturing strategies. The Fund will have a peer-review selection and award process based on the Michigan 21st Century Jobs Fund, a state-level initiative that has awarded over $125 million to Michigan businesses with the most innovative proposals to create new products and new jobs in the state.
Double Funding for the Manufacturing Extension Partnership: The Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) works with manufacturers across the country to improve efficiency, implement new technology and strengthen company growth. This highly-successful program has engaged in more than 350,000 projects across the country and in 2006 alone, helped create and protect over 50,000 jobs. But despite this success, funding for MEP has been slashed by the Bush administration. Barack Obama will double funding for the MEP so its training centers can continue to bolster the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers.
Invest In A Clean Energy Economy And Create 5 Million New Green Jobs: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial scale renewable energy, invest in low emissions coal plants, and begin transition to a new digital electricity grid. The plan will also invest in America's highly-skilled manufacturing workforce and manufacturing centers to ensure that American workers have the skills and tools they need to pioneer the first wave of green technologies that will be in high demand throughout the world.
Create New Job Training Programs for Clean Technologies: The Obama plan will increase funding for federal workforce training programs and direct these programs to incorporate green technologies training, such as advanced manufacturing and weatherization training, into their efforts to help Americans find and retain stable, high-paying jobs. Obama will also create an energy-focused youth jobs program to invest in disconnected and disadvantaged youth.
Boost the Renewable Energy Sector and Create New Jobs: The Obama plan will create new federal policies, and expand existing ones, that have been proven to create new American jobs. Obama will create a federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) that will require 25 percent of American electricity be derived from renewable sources by 2025, which has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs on its own. Obama will also extend the Production Tax Credit, a credit used successfully by American farmers and investors to increase renewable energy production and create new local jobs.
New Jobs Through National Infrastructure Investment
Barack Obama believes that it is critically important for the United States to rebuild its national transportation infrastructure – its highways, bridges, roads, ports, air, and train systems – to strengthen user safety, bolster our long-term competitiveness and ensure our economy continues to grow.

Create a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank: Barack Obama will address the infrastructure challenge by creating a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank to expand and enhance, not supplant, existing federal transportation investments. This independent entity will be directed to invest in our nation’s most challenging transportation infrastructure needs. The Bank will receive an infusion of federal money, $60 billion over 10 years, to provide financing to transportation infrastructure projects across the nation. These projects will create up to two million new direct and indirect jobs per year and stimulate approximately $35 billion per year in new economic activity.
Technology, Innovation and Creating Jobs
Barack Obama will increase federal support for research, technology and innovation for companies and universities so that American families can lead the world in creating new advanced jobs and products.

Invest in the Sciences: Barack Obama supports doubling federal funding for basic research and changing the posture of our federal government from being one of the most anti-science administrations in American history to one that embraces science and technology. This will foster home-grown innovation, help ensure the competitiveness of US technology-based businesses, and ensure that 21st century jobs can and will grow in America.
Make the Research and Development Tax Credit Permanent: Barack Obama wants investments in a skilled research and development workforce and technology infrastructure to be supported here in America so that American workers and communities will benefit. Obama wants to make the Research and Development tax credit permanent so that firms can rely on it when making decisions to invest in domestic R&D over multi-year timeframes.
Deploy Next-Generation Broadband: Barack Obama believes we can get broadband to every community in America through a combination of reform of the Universal Service Fund, better use of the nation's wireless spectrum, promotion of next-generation facilities, technologies and applications, and new tax and loan incentives.
Support Small Business
Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.
Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. Obama will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.
Labor
Obama will strengthen the ability of workers to organize unions. He will fight for passage of the Employee Free Choice Act. Obama will ensure that his labor appointees support workers' rights and will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers. Obama will also increase the minimum wage and index it to inflation to ensure it rises every year.

Ensure Freedom to Unionize: Obama believes that workers should have the freedom to choose whether to join a union without harassment or intimidation from their employers. Obama cosponsored and is strong advocate for the Employee Free Choice Act, a bipartisan effort to assure that workers can exercise their right to organize. He will continue to fight for EFCA's passage and sign it into law.
Fight Attacks on Workers' Right to Organize: Obama has fought the Bush National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) efforts to strip workers of their right to organize. He is a cosponsor of legislation to overturn the NLRB's "Kentucky River" decisions classifying hundreds of thousands of nurses, construction, and professional workers as "supervisors" who are not protected by federal labor laws.
Protect Striking Workers: Obama supports the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. He will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.
Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.
Protect Homeownership and Crack Down on Mortgage Fraud
Obama will crack down on fraudulent brokers and lenders. He will also make sure homebuyers have honest and complete information about their mortgage options, and he will give a tax credit to all middle-class homeowners.

Create a New FHA Housing Security Program: Barack Obama strongly supports the efforts of Senate Banking Committee Chair Chris Dodd (D–CT) to create a new Federal Housing Administration (FHA) program that will provide meaningful incentives for lenders to buy or refinance existing mortgages and convert them into stable 30-year fixed mortgages. This plan provides an important federal backstop – not a bailout – to this growing national problem. Neither lenders nor homeowners would receive a windfall from this plan.
Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Obama will create a 10 percent universal mortgage credit to provide homeowners who do not itemize tax relief. This credit will provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.
Ensure More Accountability in the Subprime Mortgage Industry: Obama has been closely monitoring the subprime mortgage situation for years, and introduced comprehensive legislation over a year ago to fight mortgage fraud and protect consumers against abusive lending practices. Obama's STOP FRAUD Act provides the first federal definition of mortgage fraud, increases funding for federal and state law enforcement programs, creates new criminal penalties for mortgage professionals found guilty of fraud, and requires industry insiders to report suspicious activity.
Mandate Accurate Loan Disclosure: Obama will create a Homeowner Obligation Made Explicit (HOME) score, which will provide potential borrowers with a simplified, standardized borrower metric (similar to APR) for home mortgages. The HOME score will allow individuals to easily compare various mortgage products and understand the full cost of the loan.
Create Fund to Help Homeowners Avoid Foreclosures: Obama will create a fund to help people refinance their mortgages and provide comprehensive supports to innocent homeowners. The fund will be partially paid for by Obama's increased penalties on lenders who act irresponsibly and commit fraud.
Close Bankruptcy Loophole for Mortgage Companies: Obama will work to eliminate the provision that prevents bankruptcy courts from modifying an individual's mortgage payments. Obama believes that the subprime mortgage industry, which has engaged in dangerous and sometimes unscrupulous business practices, should not be shielded by outdated federal law.
Address Predatory Credit Card Practices
Obama will establish a five-star rating system so that every consumer knows the risk involved in every credit card. He also will establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to stop credit card companies from exploiting consumers with unfair practices.

Create a Credit Card Rating System to Improve Disclosure: Obama will create a credit card rating system, modeled on five-star systems used for other consumer products, to provide consumers an easily identifiable ranking of credit cards, based on the card's features. Credit card companies will be required to display the rating on all application and contract materials, enabling consumers to quickly understand all of the major provisions of a credit card without having to rely exclusively on fine print in lengthy documents.
Establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to Protect Consumers: Obama will create a Credit Card Bill of Rights to protect consumers. The Obama plan will:
Ban Unilateral Changes
Apply Interest Rate Increases Only to Future Debt
Prohibit Interest on Fees
Prohibit "Universal Defaults"
Require Prompt and Fair Crediting of Cardholder Payments
Reform Bankruptcy Laws
Obama will reform our bankruptcy laws to protect working people, ban executive bonuses for bankrupt companies, and require disclosure of all pension investments.

Cap Outlandish Interest Rates on Payday Loans and Improve Disclosure: Obama supports extending a 36 percent interest cap to all Americans. Obama will require lenders to provide clear and simplified information about loan fees, payments and penalties, which is why he'll require lenders to provide this information during the application process.
Encourage Responsible Lending Institutions to Make Small Consumer Loans: Obama will encourage banks, credit unions and Community Development Financial Institutions to provide affordable short-term and small-dollar loans and to drive unscrupulous lenders out of business.
Reform Bankruptcy Laws to Protect Families Facing a Medical Crisis: Obama will create an exemption in bankruptcy law for individuals who can prove they filed for bankruptcy because of medical expenses. This exemption will create a process that forgives the debt and lets the individuals get back on their feet.
Work/Family Balance
Obama will double funding for after-school programs, expand the Family Medical Leave Act, provide low-income families with a refundable tax credit to help with their child-care expenses, and encourage flexible work schedules.

Expand the Family and Medical Leave Act: The FMLA covers only certain employees of employers with 50 or more employees. Obama will expand it to cover businesses with 25 or more employees. He will expand the FMLA to cover more purposes as well, including allowing workers to take leave for elder care needs; allowing parents up to 24 hours of leave each year to participate in their children's academic activities; and expanding FMLA to cover leave for employees to address domestic violence.
Encourage States to Adopt Paid Leave: As president, Obama will initiate a strategy to encourage all 50 states to adopt paid-leave systems. Obama will provide a $1.5 billion fund to assist states with start-up costs and to help states offset the costs for employees and employers.
Expand High-Quality Afterschool Opportunities: Obama will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs, the 21st Century Learning Centers program, to serve a million more children. Obama will include measures to maximize performance and effectiveness across grantees nationwide.
Expand the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit: The Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit provides too little relief to families that struggle to afford child care expenses. Obama will reform the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit by making it refundable and allowing low-income families to receive up to a 50 percent credit for their child care expenses.
Protect Against Caregiver Discrimination: Workers with family obligations often are discriminated against in the workplace. Obama will enforce the recently-enacted Equal Employment Opportunity Commission guidelines on caregiver discrimination.
Expand Flexible Work Arrangements: Obama will create a program to inform businesses about the benefits of flexible work schedules; help businesses create flexible work opportunities; and increase federal incentives for telecommuting. Obama will also make the federal government a model employer in terms of adopting flexible work schedules and permitting employees to request flexible arrangements.
Barack Obama's Record
Housing: In the U.S. Senate, Obama introduced the STOP FRAUD Act to increase penalties for mortgage fraud and provide more protections for low-income homebuyers, well before the current subprime crisis began.
Predatory Lending: In the Illinois State Senate, Obama called attention to predatory lending issues. Obama sponsored legislation to combat predatory payday loans, and he also was credited with lobbying the state to more closely regulate some of the most egregious predatory lending practices.
American Jobs: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.

Guru
07-22-2008, 05:14 PM
There's a difference between having grayed morals and being a criminal, no?

We are having a good conversation, I think you just don't like that the truth about McCain.

Yep, you are a prophet who completely understands everything about me.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 05:14 PM
And for comparasion sake, here's Romney's economic plan...

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More information

jAZ
07-22-2008, 05:15 PM
I wonder how much of his own $ Romney agreed to spend on the campaign?

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 05:17 PM
Yep, you are a prophet who completely understands everything about me.
I can only go by what you tell me and you've told me, you'd rather vote for a crook than Obama.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 05:18 PM
Yea, I'd say this about covers it...


The Problem
Wages are Stagnant as Prices Rise: While wages remain flat, the costs of basic necessities are increasing. The cost of in-state college tuition has grown 35 percent over the past five years. Health care costs have risen four times faster than wages over the past six years. And the personal savings rate is now the lowest it's been since the Great Depression.

Tax Cuts for Wealthy Instead of Middle Class: The Bush tax cuts give those who earn over $1 million dollars a tax cut nearly 160 times greater than that received by middle-income Americans. At the same time, this administration has refused to tackle health care, education and housing in a manner that benefits the middle class.

Barack Obama's Plan
Jumpstart the Economy
Provide Additional Tax Rebates to American Workers: The economy has continued to weaken significantly, despite congressional action to provide immediate tax rebates to American consumers. Stimulus: $20 billion.
Establish a $10 billion Foreclosure Prevention Fund: Given the downturn in the economy, Obama is calling for immediate creation of his Foreclosure Prevention Fund that will dramatically increase emergency pre-foreclosure counseling, and will help families facing foreclosure to responsibly refinance their mortgages or sell their homes. Obama’s plan will not help speculators, people buying vacation homes or people that falsely represented their incomes. It is meant to help responsible homeowners through this difficult period. Stimulus: $10 billion.
Provide $10 billion in Relief for State and Local Governments Hardest-Hit by the Housing Crisis to Prevent Cuts in Vital Services: Because of the housing crisis and the weakening economy, many state and local governments are facing significant revenue shortfalls. Barack Obama believes that in the areas hardest-hit by the housing crisis we should provide immediate, temporary funding to state and local governments so that the decline in property values does not cause them to slash critical public services and cut vital infrastructure spending. Stimulus: $10 billion.
Extend and Expand Unemployment Insurance: Barack Obama believes we must extend and strengthen the Unemployment Insurance (UI) program to address the needs of the long-term unemployed, who currently make up nearly one-fifth of the unemployed and are often older workers who have lost their jobs in manufacturing or other industries and have a difficult time finding new employment. Expanding UI is one of the most effective ways to combat economic turmoil; every dollar invested in UI benefits results in $1.73 in economic output. Obama is calling for a temporary expansion of the UI program for those who have exhausted their current eligibility. Stimulus: $10 billion.
Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
Obama will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.

Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.
Eliminate Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less than $50,000: Barack Obama will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. This proposal will eliminate income taxes for 7 million seniors and provide these seniors with an average savings of $1,400 each year. Under the Obama plan, 27 million American seniors will also not need to file an income tax return.
Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.
Trade
Obama believes that trade with foreign nations should strengthen the American economy and create more American jobs. He will stand firm against agreements that undermine our economic security.

Fight for Fair Trade: Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. He will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports.
Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.
Improve Transition Assistance: To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama would update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs.
Invest in the Manufacturing Sector and Create 5 Million New Green Jobs
Invest in our Next Generation Innovators and Job Creators: Obama will create an Advanced Manufacturing Fund to identify and invest in the most compelling advanced manufacturing strategies. The Fund will have a peer-review selection and award process based on the Michigan 21st Century Jobs Fund, a state-level initiative that has awarded over $125 million to Michigan businesses with the most innovative proposals to create new products and new jobs in the state.
Double Funding for the Manufacturing Extension Partnership: The Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) works with manufacturers across the country to improve efficiency, implement new technology and strengthen company growth. This highly-successful program has engaged in more than 350,000 projects across the country and in 2006 alone, helped create and protect over 50,000 jobs. But despite this success, funding for MEP has been slashed by the Bush administration. Barack Obama will double funding for the MEP so its training centers can continue to bolster the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers.
Invest In A Clean Energy Economy And Create 5 Million New Green Jobs: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial scale renewable energy, invest in low emissions coal plants, and begin transition to a new digital electricity grid. The plan will also invest in America's highly-skilled manufacturing workforce and manufacturing centers to ensure that American workers have the skills and tools they need to pioneer the first wave of green technologies that will be in high demand throughout the world.
Create New Job Training Programs for Clean Technologies: The Obama plan will increase funding for federal workforce training programs and direct these programs to incorporate green technologies training, such as advanced manufacturing and weatherization training, into their efforts to help Americans find and retain stable, high-paying jobs. Obama will also create an energy-focused youth jobs program to invest in disconnected and disadvantaged youth.
Boost the Renewable Energy Sector and Create New Jobs: The Obama plan will create new federal policies, and expand existing ones, that have been proven to create new American jobs. Obama will create a federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) that will require 25 percent of American electricity be derived from renewable sources by 2025, which has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs on its own. Obama will also extend the Production Tax Credit, a credit used successfully by American farmers and investors to increase renewable energy production and create new local jobs.
New Jobs Through National Infrastructure Investment
Barack Obama believes that it is critically important for the United States to rebuild its national transportation infrastructure – its highways, bridges, roads, ports, air, and train systems – to strengthen user safety, bolster our long-term competitiveness and ensure our economy continues to grow.

Create a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank: Barack Obama will address the infrastructure challenge by creating a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank to expand and enhance, not supplant, existing federal transportation investments. This independent entity will be directed to invest in our nation’s most challenging transportation infrastructure needs. The Bank will receive an infusion of federal money, $60 billion over 10 years, to provide financing to transportation infrastructure projects across the nation. These projects will create up to two million new direct and indirect jobs per year and stimulate approximately $35 billion per year in new economic activity.
Technology, Innovation and Creating Jobs
Barack Obama will increase federal support for research, technology and innovation for companies and universities so that American families can lead the world in creating new advanced jobs and products.

Invest in the Sciences: Barack Obama supports doubling federal funding for basic research and changing the posture of our federal government from being one of the most anti-science administrations in American history to one that embraces science and technology. This will foster home-grown innovation, help ensure the competitiveness of US technology-based businesses, and ensure that 21st century jobs can and will grow in America.
Make the Research and Development Tax Credit Permanent: Barack Obama wants investments in a skilled research and development workforce and technology infrastructure to be supported here in America so that American workers and communities will benefit. Obama wants to make the Research and Development tax credit permanent so that firms can rely on it when making decisions to invest in domestic R&D over multi-year timeframes.
Deploy Next-Generation Broadband: Barack Obama believes we can get broadband to every community in America through a combination of reform of the Universal Service Fund, better use of the nation's wireless spectrum, promotion of next-generation facilities, technologies and applications, and new tax and loan incentives.
Support Small Business
Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.
Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. Obama will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.
Labor
Obama will strengthen the ability of workers to organize unions. He will fight for passage of the Employee Free Choice Act. Obama will ensure that his labor appointees support workers' rights and will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers. Obama will also increase the minimum wage and index it to inflation to ensure it rises every year.

Ensure Freedom to Unionize: Obama believes that workers should have the freedom to choose whether to join a union without harassment or intimidation from their employers. Obama cosponsored and is strong advocate for the Employee Free Choice Act, a bipartisan effort to assure that workers can exercise their right to organize. He will continue to fight for EFCA's passage and sign it into law.
Fight Attacks on Workers' Right to Organize: Obama has fought the Bush National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) efforts to strip workers of their right to organize. He is a cosponsor of legislation to overturn the NLRB's "Kentucky River" decisions classifying hundreds of thousands of nurses, construction, and professional workers as "supervisors" who are not protected by federal labor laws.
Protect Striking Workers: Obama supports the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. He will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.
Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.
Protect Homeownership and Crack Down on Mortgage Fraud
Obama will crack down on fraudulent brokers and lenders. He will also make sure homebuyers have honest and complete information about their mortgage options, and he will give a tax credit to all middle-class homeowners.

Create a New FHA Housing Security Program: Barack Obama strongly supports the efforts of Senate Banking Committee Chair Chris Dodd (D–CT) to create a new Federal Housing Administration (FHA) program that will provide meaningful incentives for lenders to buy or refinance existing mortgages and convert them into stable 30-year fixed mortgages. This plan provides an important federal backstop – not a bailout – to this growing national problem. Neither lenders nor homeowners would receive a windfall from this plan.
Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Obama will create a 10 percent universal mortgage credit to provide homeowners who do not itemize tax relief. This credit will provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.
Ensure More Accountability in the Subprime Mortgage Industry: Obama has been closely monitoring the subprime mortgage situation for years, and introduced comprehensive legislation over a year ago to fight mortgage fraud and protect consumers against abusive lending practices. Obama's STOP FRAUD Act provides the first federal definition of mortgage fraud, increases funding for federal and state law enforcement programs, creates new criminal penalties for mortgage professionals found guilty of fraud, and requires industry insiders to report suspicious activity.
Mandate Accurate Loan Disclosure: Obama will create a Homeowner Obligation Made Explicit (HOME) score, which will provide potential borrowers with a simplified, standardized borrower metric (similar to APR) for home mortgages. The HOME score will allow individuals to easily compare various mortgage products and understand the full cost of the loan.
Create Fund to Help Homeowners Avoid Foreclosures: Obama will create a fund to help people refinance their mortgages and provide comprehensive supports to innocent homeowners. The fund will be partially paid for by Obama's increased penalties on lenders who act irresponsibly and commit fraud.
Close Bankruptcy Loophole for Mortgage Companies: Obama will work to eliminate the provision that prevents bankruptcy courts from modifying an individual's mortgage payments. Obama believes that the subprime mortgage industry, which has engaged in dangerous and sometimes unscrupulous business practices, should not be shielded by outdated federal law.
Address Predatory Credit Card Practices
Obama will establish a five-star rating system so that every consumer knows the risk involved in every credit card. He also will establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to stop credit card companies from exploiting consumers with unfair practices.

Create a Credit Card Rating System to Improve Disclosure: Obama will create a credit card rating system, modeled on five-star systems used for other consumer products, to provide consumers an easily identifiable ranking of credit cards, based on the card's features. Credit card companies will be required to display the rating on all application and contract materials, enabling consumers to quickly understand all of the major provisions of a credit card without having to rely exclusively on fine print in lengthy documents.
Establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to Protect Consumers: Obama will create a Credit Card Bill of Rights to protect consumers. The Obama plan will:
Ban Unilateral Changes
Apply Interest Rate Increases Only to Future Debt
Prohibit Interest on Fees
Prohibit "Universal Defaults"
Require Prompt and Fair Crediting of Cardholder Payments
Reform Bankruptcy Laws
Obama will reform our bankruptcy laws to protect working people, ban executive bonuses for bankrupt companies, and require disclosure of all pension investments.

Cap Outlandish Interest Rates on Payday Loans and Improve Disclosure: Obama supports extending a 36 percent interest cap to all Americans. Obama will require lenders to provide clear and simplified information about loan fees, payments and penalties, which is why he'll require lenders to provide this information during the application process.
Encourage Responsible Lending Institutions to Make Small Consumer Loans: Obama will encourage banks, credit unions and Community Development Financial Institutions to provide affordable short-term and small-dollar loans and to drive unscrupulous lenders out of business.
Reform Bankruptcy Laws to Protect Families Facing a Medical Crisis: Obama will create an exemption in bankruptcy law for individuals who can prove they filed for bankruptcy because of medical expenses. This exemption will create a process that forgives the debt and lets the individuals get back on their feet.
Work/Family Balance
Obama will double funding for after-school programs, expand the Family Medical Leave Act, provide low-income families with a refundable tax credit to help with their child-care expenses, and encourage flexible work schedules.

Expand the Family and Medical Leave Act: The FMLA covers only certain employees of employers with 50 or more employees. Obama will expand it to cover businesses with 25 or more employees. He will expand the FMLA to cover more purposes as well, including allowing workers to take leave for elder care needs; allowing parents up to 24 hours of leave each year to participate in their children's academic activities; and expanding FMLA to cover leave for employees to address domestic violence.
Encourage States to Adopt Paid Leave: As president, Obama will initiate a strategy to encourage all 50 states to adopt paid-leave systems. Obama will provide a $1.5 billion fund to assist states with start-up costs and to help states offset the costs for employees and employers.
Expand High-Quality Afterschool Opportunities: Obama will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs, the 21st Century Learning Centers program, to serve a million more children. Obama will include measures to maximize performance and effectiveness across grantees nationwide.
Expand the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit: The Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit provides too little relief to families that struggle to afford child care expenses. Obama will reform the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit by making it refundable and allowing low-income families to receive up to a 50 percent credit for their child care expenses.
Protect Against Caregiver Discrimination: Workers with family obligations often are discriminated against in the workplace. Obama will enforce the recently-enacted Equal Employment Opportunity Commission guidelines on caregiver discrimination.
Expand Flexible Work Arrangements: Obama will create a program to inform businesses about the benefits of flexible work schedules; help businesses create flexible work opportunities; and increase federal incentives for telecommuting. Obama will also make the federal government a model employer in terms of adopting flexible work schedules and permitting employees to request flexible arrangements.
Barack Obama's Record
Housing: In the U.S. Senate, Obama introduced the STOP FRAUD Act to increase penalties for mortgage fraud and provide more protections for low-income homebuyers, well before the current subprime crisis began.
Predatory Lending: In the Illinois State Senate, Obama called attention to predatory lending issues. Obama sponsored legislation to combat predatory payday loans, and he also was credited with lobbying the state to more closely regulate some of the most egregious predatory lending practices.
American Jobs: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.

Thanks! I always wanted to read the communist manifesto!!

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-22-2008, 05:19 PM
That's f*cking hilarious. He wastes his VP bounce for now, and has the integrity to pick a guy that he supposedly hated with the fire of 1,000 suns. Then again, the guy sold his soul so that the Bushies could run a train on his ass, what would you expect.

This ticket will go over like Hoover's bid for reelection.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 05:20 PM
Thanks! I always wanted to read the communist manifesto!!Like big tax breaks for the wealthy instead for the middle-class. Yea, he's a commie all right.

You sure don't bring much substance to the conversation, do you?

Also, love that Romney plan-wow.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-22-2008, 05:21 PM
Ah, okay, so Bush went to great schools, was successful, and had money, so since he didn't work out we should never look for those attributes in a president. That's brilliant.

Exactly what part of being a C student and running multiple oil and energy companies into the ground whilst accused of insider trading, only to be bailed out financially by the Saudis would make someone believe you are successful?

Guru
07-22-2008, 05:22 PM
I can only go by what you tell me and you've told me, you'd rather vote for a crook than Obama.

If that is your road then I would most definitely vote for Barr. Which is practically a vote for Obama. Congrats.

recxjake
07-22-2008, 05:24 PM
I wonder how much of his own $ Romney agreed to spend on the campaign?

VP candidates cannont donate unlimited amounts... only 2,300 bucks

Guru
07-22-2008, 05:25 PM
Like big tax breaks for the wealthy instead for the middle-class. Yea, he's a commie all right.

You sure don't bring much substance to the conversation, do you?

Also, love that Romney plan-wow.

I am major middle class and have seen big tax breaks.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121659695380368965.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

VAChief
07-22-2008, 05:28 PM
I'm a little surprised he picked Romney, but it will certainly be interesting to see how comfortable the evangelicals are with this selection, especially with McBush well into his 70's now.

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 05:32 PM
I am major middle class and have seen big tax breaks.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121659695380368965.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
How do you get people making a little over $100,000 a year paying 70% of the tax burden a huge tax break?:hmmm:

Adept Havelock
07-22-2008, 05:32 PM
You sure don't bring much substance to the conversation, do you?


He's the right wing version of Max Sleeper, or a slightly more humorous recxjake.

Taco John
07-22-2008, 05:35 PM
LOL! Suckling from the McCain tit.

I just threw up.

A lot.

SBK
07-22-2008, 05:35 PM
The only people who seem to care about Romney had already resigned themselves to the fact that they'd be voting for McCain in November anyway.

I like the Romney pick, and I've stated here before that I'm not voting for McCain.

VAChief
07-22-2008, 05:36 PM
Since none of the major networks are reporting this... I'm starting to think it may not be true... but more a head fake to get the attention off Obama this week... then come back in August with the pick.

Why would you want something leaked, but not covered where people could see it? I'm not sure there is any logic to that conclusion.

***SPRAYER
07-22-2008, 05:54 PM
Like big tax breaks for the wealthy instead for the middle-class. Yea, he's a commie all right.

You sure don't bring much substance to the conversation, do you?

Also, love that Romney plan-wow.

Don't get huffy with me.

:#

Guru
07-22-2008, 05:58 PM
How do you get people making a little over $100,000 a year paying 70% of the tax burden a huge tax break?:hmmm:

It's like talking to a brick wall with you. No wonder nothing gets done in DC. The people getting the biggest tax break are going to get a bigger tax break under Obama. I make less than 100k and am getting nice tax breaks under Bush. That doesn't mean I like Bush.

The whole "the rich are not taxed enough" is a bogus argument.

dirk digler
07-22-2008, 06:39 PM
That's f*cking hilarious. He wastes his VP bounce for now, and has the integrity to pick a guy that he supposedly hated with the fire of 1,000 suns. Then again, the guy sold his soul so that the Bushies could run a train on his ass, what would you expect.

This ticket will go over like Hoover's bid for reelection.

LMAO. Exactly. This proves without a doubt that McCain believes he is going to lose and is running scared shitless.

Direckshun
07-22-2008, 07:22 PM
Since none of the major networks are reporting this... I'm starting to think it may not be true... but more a head fake to get the attention off Obama this week... then come back in August with the pick.
You and Novak were tooled ten times over.

Not that you mind.

VAChief
07-22-2008, 07:28 PM
You and Novak were tooled ten times over.

Not that you mind.

This would be one time I hope he is right. Although Mittens reminds me a little too much of Sam Neill in "The Final Conflict."

Adept Havelock
07-22-2008, 07:33 PM
This would be one time I hope he is right. Although Mittens reminds me a little too much of Sam Neill in "The Final Conflict."

I was thinking Martin Sheen in "The Dead Zone", but you're right.

My comparison probably fits Huckabee better. :p

BigChiefFan
07-22-2008, 07:37 PM
It's like talking to a brick wall with you. No wonder nothing gets done in DC. The people getting the biggest tax break are going to get a bigger tax break under Obama. I make less than 100k and am getting nice tax breaks under Bush. That doesn't mean I like Bush.

The whole "the rich are not taxed enough" is a bogus argument.
I didn't bring that "bogus" argument up-you did. I merely stated that the Upper middle-class has the majority of the tax burden, which is exactly what the link you shared stated.

Guru
07-22-2008, 07:47 PM
I didn't bring that "bogus" argument up-you did. I merely stated that the Upper middle-class has the majority of the tax burden, which is exactly what the link you shared stated.

Whatever. Not wasting anymore time on this with you.

Ultra Peanut
07-22-2008, 07:50 PM
Jindal's considerably more conservative than Romney, he's just to the extreme.And he also has such a bright future that there's no reason for him to even consider hitching his cart to a worn-down horse that likes to ride in directions that make no sense.

Ultra Peanut
07-22-2008, 07:53 PM
If that is your road then I would most definitely vote for Barr. Which is practically a vote for Obama. Congrats.Why are you so opposed to Obama?

Guru
07-22-2008, 08:26 PM
Why are you so opposed to Obama?

I feel like no matter what I say here I won't get any respect for my answer. The Obama supporters come out in droves to defend each other but the conservatives here don't seem to want to do the same for their own.

I can't really explain why. There is just something about him I just don't trust. On paper, he looks good and sounds good. His personal friendships leave a lot to question. The fact that he has only been in the national process for a very short time concerns me. He comes across as naive as well. I don't feel that more taxes is the answer. I don't feel that he is realistic on the current oil situation at all. It was irritating when ABC had their primary forum and he whined about the questions he got. The Gibson/Stephanopolas one. When he is one on one with a reporter, he seems to struggle with his answers which is something you usually don't see in a politician. I don't like Hillary either but she definitely handles herself great in those one on ones.

Being a conservative, I am a hard sell anyway but he has never struck me as a realistic candidate I could consider throwing my vote to at all. I would love to buck the system and just vote for Barr but it just won't make any difference. Until the third parties are taken more seriously and allowed to be a bigger part of the process they are just a wasted vote. Hell, the only third party candidate to make a crack was Perot and that is just sad.

I'm sure I just wasted my breath here though since I am "just supporting a crook".

HolmeZz
07-22-2008, 08:46 PM
His personal friendships leave a lot to question.

Meh. Mainly because there's been a lot more time scrutinizing and focusing on what are or could be construed as bad relationships. You're not going to hear about the good ones. The bad ones were an attempt to paint a portrait of a man that wasn't widely known to the public.

He comes across as naive as well.

I find the use of the word naive funny, especially coming from people like us on this tiny irrelevant forum. Barack's a pretty intelligent guy. You'd have to be to be President of the Harvard Law Review. I might disagree with the foreign policy of a guy like John McCain, but to accuse him of naivete or to pretend like I have more of a knowledge about the world than him would be silly.

It was irritating when ABC had their primary forum and he whined about the questions he got. The Gibson/Stephanopolas one.

That was irritating to you? It wasn't more irritating that the questions being asked were "does Reverend Wright love America as much as you?" and "why don't you love our flag?!?"?

Guru
07-22-2008, 09:01 PM
Meh. Mainly because there's been a lot more time scrutinizing and focusing on what are or could be construed as bad relationships. You're not going to hear about the good ones. The bad ones were an attempt to paint a portrait of a man that wasn't widely known to the public.

The association with his pastor really left me with a poor impression. Just my opinion.



I find the use of the word naive funny, especially coming from people like us on this tiny irrelevant forum. Barack's a pretty intelligent guy. You'd have to be to be President of the Harvard Law Review. I might disagree with the foreign policy of a guy like John McCain, but to accuse him of naivete or to pretend like I have more of a knowledge about the world than him would be silly.

I agree, naive is the wrong word. Didn't mean to sound as if he not intelligent. He obviously is. That was really more directed at his stance on the oil issue though. Again, only my opinion.



That was irritating to you? It wasn't more irritating that the questions being asked were "does Reverend Wright love America as much as you?" and "why don't you love our flag?!?"? It would not have mattered what candidate it was. With what was going on at the time, they were inevitable questions. Play the hand you are dealt. It was an opportunity to put his views out there on it. During the forum, he dealt with the questions fine. Then he went on the next day to gripe about it when he had actually dealt with it fine during the forum. Had he just let it go, I might not have even thought twice about it.

WilliamTheIrish
07-22-2008, 09:11 PM
When he is one on one with a reporter, he seems to struggle with his answers which is something you usually don't see in a politician.

Have you been on earth the last eight years?

Guru
07-22-2008, 09:43 PM
Have you been on earth the last eight years?
Last I checked, I couldn't afford the new space flights.

SNR
07-22-2008, 09:47 PM
So is this true or not? It's not on the McCain website

penchief
07-22-2008, 09:49 PM
Brilliant move if this is true. Romney would be the one guy involved in this election that truly understands finance and economics. He will have major credibility at a time like this.

How does he understand the economy? He may have a record but all he's been doing since the start of his campaign is towing the corpo-fascist line. All he's been saying he wants to do is double down on Bush's policies of tax cuts for the wealthy and more deregulation.

Considering that it is exactly those policies that have caused the erosion of our infrastructure and our economy, how does that show an understanding of the economy?

Thig Lyfe
07-22-2008, 09:50 PM
Last I checked, I couldn't afford the new space flights.

That's 'cause rocket fuel prices are so high... THANKS A LOT, CHENEY!

Calcountry
07-22-2008, 09:50 PM
Romney, if this turns out to be true, is the clear frontrunner, both from the balance, and the fact that he puts Michigan in play.

SNR
07-22-2008, 09:53 PM
How does he understand the economy? He may have a record but all he's been doing since the start of his campaign is towing the corpo-fascist line. All he's been saying he wants to do is double down on Bush's policies of tax cuts for the wealthy and more deregulation.

Considering that it is exactly those policies that have caused the erosion of our infrastructure and our economy, how does that show an understanding of the economy?Clueless voters will associate "business + governorship" with "good economist"

Of course, if elected, they'll see that he's actually not that much of a step up from McCain in this department. McCain's advisors will still provide the majority of the information

Guru
07-22-2008, 09:54 PM
That's 'cause rocket fuel prices are so high... THANKS A LOT, CONGRESS!

FYP

jAZ
07-22-2008, 11:04 PM
Wow, we'll see if he just blew his "VP bounce" on a week when Obama will likely steal his thunder right back.

At least I was 1/2 right.

I took this to mean it was official. But after looking around, it's just unofficial.

I suspect that they are doing what they can to get people to talk about their campaign this week (which is smart) short of making their official annoucement this week (even smarter).

Leaking the annoucement is a smart move.

jAZ
07-22-2008, 11:06 PM
VP candidates cannont donate unlimited amounts... only 2,300 bucks

Is that true?

Ari Chi3fs
07-22-2008, 11:17 PM
ROFL... is that why McCain is up 10% in Ohio now?


Diebold HQ is in Ohio?? :hmmm:

Ari Chi3fs
07-22-2008, 11:19 PM
http://www.relentlesslyoptimistic.com/images/2008/07/09/mcain_feel_the_excitement.jpg

Guru
07-22-2008, 11:20 PM
http://www.relentlesslyoptimistic.com/images/2008/07/09/mcain_feel_the_excitement.jpg

ROFL

Thats funny.

sportsman1
07-22-2008, 11:24 PM
If this is true.. I am voting third party. I will not completely sell my soul. All the other Huckabee supporters wont support it either. Someone has to take a stand against the way the Party is going. I said id vote for mccain as long as romney wasnt vp. This is the worst case scenario.

VAChief
07-23-2008, 08:27 AM
If the right is going to make an issue about Obama's muslim heritage even though he disputes that as his faith, then it will be open season on Romney's faith in my opinion.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1619552,00.html

VAChief
07-23-2008, 08:36 AM
"At all but the top level, the church is sustained by Mormon men volunteering as lay leaders. Romney was bishop of a ward, or congregation, and eventually president of a stake in Boston, meaning he was responsible for 14 wards with a total of some 3,000 members. Women cannot serve in priestly roles, nor could African Americans until a new revelation brought a change of policy in 1978. Should Romney have to account for such church practices? When he married Ann, a Mormon convert, in 1969 in the temple in Salt Lake City, her family could not attend the ceremony since only Mormons are allowed inside. A separate ceremony was held for "gentiles," as non- Mormons are called."

From the link in the following post. Right or wrong regarding an individual's faith, I would have to think some of these issues will be discussed.

patteeu
07-23-2008, 09:10 AM
And if true McCain just lost my vote...

Really? What do you dislike about Romney enough to make you base your vote (or at least your non-vote) on a VP selection?

patteeu
07-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Brilliant move if this is true. Romney would be the one guy involved in this election that truly understands finance and economics. He will have major credibility at a time like this.

Romney could be John McCain's Dick Cheney! ;)

Smed1065
07-23-2008, 09:17 AM
www.race42008.com is confirming that Mitt Romney will be the Vice Presidential candidate with John McCain.

So you are a wronger? Hillary is not here, much like your opinion.........Oh No way Obama wins and CM is god?


Tell me more lies.

I am neutral but I was influenced by dumb comments and lies.

TY Republican Bullshitter.

I will vote against them now. TY for the advice.

Sincerely Undecided.

Well I am now!

***SPRAYER
07-23-2008, 09:19 AM
Really? What do you dislike about Romney enough to make you base your vote (or at least your non-vote) on a VP selection?


The Christian Right won't vote for a Mormon.

patteeu
07-23-2008, 09:19 AM
So you'd rather vote for a crook, who illegally took money from Charles Keating, than a person with some moral fortitude?

Link?

Adept Havelock
07-23-2008, 09:27 AM
The Christian Right won't vote for a Mormon.

But some will support a big-government nanny-stater like Huckabee.

eazyb81
07-23-2008, 09:45 AM
The Christian Right won't vote for a Mormon.

Fantastic. I'd love to see the majority of the evangelicals leave the Republican party.

eazyb81
07-23-2008, 09:52 AM
How does he understand the economy? He may have a record but all he's been doing since the start of his campaign is towing the corpo-fascist line. All he's been saying he wants to do is double down on Bush's policies of tax cuts for the wealthy and more deregulation.

Considering that it is exactly those policies that have caused the erosion of our infrastructure and our economy, how does that show an understanding of the economy?

His record is proof that he has a strong grasp on finance, economics, value, and risk - that's not something you can just discard. Bain is a mammoth force in the business world, and the fact that he played a prominent role in building that firm from the ground up says a lot to me.

On your second point, every developed economy has peaks and valleys, and we are currently attempting to get out of a valley after a long period of excellent growth. An economic downturn alone is not evidence that our system is screwed up and needs fundamental changes.

BigChiefFan
07-23-2008, 10:02 AM
Link?
Google Keating Five and you'll see report after report on this subject. I would post a link but every since I upgraded to 9.1 I can't copy a link-it's some damn glitch, the header gets cut off, only allowing part of a web address. What's funny is can copy and paste an entire article, though.


If you don't find anything I can copy and paste an article, but I can't provide a link, until my computer guy gets this issue resolved for me.

Adept Havelock
07-23-2008, 10:05 AM
Fantastic. I'd love to see the majority of the evangelicals leave the Republican party.

Especially if it means an end to Huckabee style nanny-statism and a return to common-sense fiscal policy.

Getting away from the (as BL has termed it) "I'm gonna get all up in your business" approach and back to "it's not the governments business/job" regarding their version of social engineering would be refreshing as well.

Then the Dobsonites can follow through on their threat to form yet another third party.

patteeu
07-23-2008, 12:47 PM
The elitist argument makes no sense because electing somebody we'd "like to have a beer with" is what got us into the 8-year-long clusterf*ck we're in now.

Obama's smarter, richer, fitter and more cultured than most of us.

I hate to break it to you, but George W. Bush is smarter, richer, fitter and more cultured than most of us too.

patteeu
07-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Google Keating Five and you'll see report after report on this subject. I would post a link but every since I upgraded to 9.1 I can't copy a link-it's some damn glitch, the header gets cut off, only allowing part of a web address. What's funny is can copy and paste an entire article, though.


If you don't find anything I can copy and paste an article, but I can't provide a link, until my computer guy gets this issue resolved for me.

How about copying and pasting a quote from the article that backs up what you said then.

VAChief
07-23-2008, 01:00 PM
Google Keating Five and you'll see report after report on this subject. I would post a link but every since I upgraded to 9.1 I can't copy a link-it's some damn glitch, the header gets cut off, only allowing part of a web address. What's funny is can copy and paste an entire article, though.


If you don't find anything I can copy and paste an article, but I can't provide a link, until my computer guy gets this issue resolved for me.

To be fair, McCain and Glenn were cleared. Which is not the same as innocent as we all know, but nothing was substantiated that he acted improperly.

Guru
07-23-2008, 02:03 PM
To be fair, McCain and Glenn were cleared. Which is not the same as innocent as we all know, but nothing was substantiated that he acted improperly.
Guilty until proven innocent. It is the American way. :shake:

BigChiefFan
07-23-2008, 04:28 PM
How about copying and pasting a quote from the article that backs up what you said then. The article is one of the most comprehensive about the Keating Five that I can find, here ya go...

Is John McCain a Crook?
Chris Suellentrop
Posted Friday, Feb. 18, 2000, at 2:35 PM ET
The controversial George W. Bush-sponsored poll in South Carolina mentioned John McCain's role in the so-called Keating Five scandal, and McCain says his involvement in the scandal "will probably be on my tombstone." What exactly did McCain do?

In early 1987, at the beginning of his first Senate term, McCain attended two meetings with federal banking regulators to discuss an investigation into Lincoln Savings and Loan, an Irvine, Calif., thrift owned by Arizona developer Charles Keating. Federal auditors were investigating Keating's banking practices, and Keating, fearful that the government would seize his S&L, sought intervention from a number of U.S. senators.


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At Keating's behest, four senators--McCain and Democrats Dennis DeConcini of Arizona, Alan Cranston of California, and John Glenn of Ohio--met with Ed Gray, chairman of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board, on April 2. Those four senators and Sen. Don Riegle, D-Mich., attended a second meeting at Keating's behest on April 9 with bank regulators in San Francisco.

Regulators did not seize Lincoln Savings and Loan until two years later. The Lincoln bailout cost taxpayers $2.6 billion, making it the biggest of the S&L scandals. In addition, 17,000 Lincoln investors lost $190 million.

In November 1990, the Senate Ethics Committee launched an investigation into the meetings between the senators and the regulators. McCain, Cranston, DeConcini, Glenn, and Riegle became known as the Keating Five.

(Keating himself was convicted in January 1993 of 73 counts of wire and bankruptcy fraud and served more than four years in prison before his conviction was overturned. Last year, he pleaded guilty to four counts of fraud and was sentenced to time served.)

McCain defended his attendance at the meetings by saying Keating was a constituent and that Keating's development company, American Continental Corporation, was a major Arizona employer. McCain said he wanted to know only whether Keating was being treated fairly and that he had not tried to influence the regulators. At the second meeting, McCain told the regulators, "I wouldn't want any special favors for them," and "I don't want any part of our conversation to be improper."

But Keating was more than a constituent to McCain--he was a longtime friend and associate. McCain met Keating in 1981 at a Navy League dinner in Arizona where McCain was the speaker. Keating was a former naval aviator himself, and the two men became friends. Keating raised money for McCain's two congressional campaigns in 1982 and 1984, and for McCain's 1986 Senate bid. By 1987, McCain campaigns had received $112,000 from Keating, his relatives, and his employees--the most received by any of the Keating Five. (Keating raised a total of $300,000 for the five senators.)

After McCain's election to the House in 1982, he and his family made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, three of which were to Keating's Bahamas retreat. McCain did not disclose the trips (as he was required to under House rules) until the scandal broke in 1989. At that point, he paid Keating $13,433 for the flights.

And in April 1986, one year before the meeting with the regulators, McCain's wife, Cindy, and her father invested $359,100 in a Keating strip mall.

The Senate Ethics Committee probe of the Keating Five began in November 1990, and committee Special Counsel Robert Bennett recommended that McCain and Glenn be dropped from the investigation. They were not. McCain believes Democrats on the committee blocked Bennett's recommendation because he was the lone Keating Five Republican.

In February 1991, the Senate Ethics Committee found McCain and Glenn to be the least blameworthy of the five senators. (McCain and Glenn attended the meetings but did nothing else to influence the regulators.) McCain was guilty of nothing more than "poor judgment," the committee said, and declared his actions were not "improper nor attended with gross negligence." McCain considered the committee's judgment to be "full exoneration," and he contributed $112,000 (the amount raised for him by Keating) to the U.S. Treasury.

Thig Lyfe
07-23-2008, 04:47 PM
I hate to break it to you, but George W. Bush is smarter, richer, fitter and more cultured than most of us too.

I really, really doubt that. Well, he's richer and fitter (he is in pretty good shape), but not smarter or more cultured.

And don't come back with "He had to be smart to go to Yale", because that's just not true either. Barack earned his way to Harvard. Bush got a free pass because of his last name.

BigChiefFan
07-23-2008, 05:07 PM
To be fair, McCain and Glenn were cleared. Which is not the same as innocent as we all know, but nothing was substantiated that he acted improperly.
From the article..."McCain did not disclose the trips (as he was required to under House rules) until the scandal broke in 1989." :hmmm:

BigChiefFan
07-23-2008, 06:32 PM
I see Mr. Pat got real quiet.

Calcountry
07-23-2008, 08:18 PM
I really, really doubt that. Well, he's richer and fitter (he is in pretty good shape), but not smarter or more cultured.

And don't come back with "He had to be smart to go to Yale", because that's just not true either. Barack earned his way to Harvard. Bush got a free pass because of his last name.And you don't think that Harvard Elites didn't "tap" Barack because he was black, but a "clean sounding" black? wtf?

What world are you living in?

Direckshun
07-23-2008, 08:21 PM
I see Mr. Pat got real quiet.
Oh, don't speak too soon.

Pat's got a good track record with sticking discussions out.

patteeu
07-24-2008, 09:55 AM
The article is one of the most comprehensive about the Keating Five that I can find, here ya go...

How can you not understand that your "most comprehensive" article doesn't support the allegation that you made? You said that McCain illegally took money from Charles Keating. He didn't. There was nothing illegal about those contributions. This was long before McCain-Feingold.

The issue in the Keating Five scandal was whether or not McCain took inappropriate action on behalf of Mr. Keating and on that issue, the Senate ethics committee cleared him of impropriety but criticized him for poor judgment. It's clearly false for you to say that he took money illegally because he wasn't even accused of that. And while it's always possible that the ethics committee got it wrong, for you to pretend that it's a known fact that he committed any crime in relation to the Keating Five is also false.

I see Mr. Pat got real quiet.

;)

patteeu
07-24-2008, 09:57 AM
I really, really doubt that. Well, he's richer and fitter (he is in pretty good shape), but not smarter or more cultured.

And don't come back with "He had to be smart to go to Yale", because that's just not true either. Barack earned his way to Harvard. Bush got a free pass because of his last name.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, but I'm sticking with my original position.

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 10:03 AM
I hate to break it to you, but George W. Bush is smarter, richer, fitter and more cultured than most of us too.

Hey, I only disagree with the smarter.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 11:07 AM
How can you not understand that your "most comprehensive" article doesn't support the allegation that you made? You said that McCain illegally took money from Charles Keating. He didn't. There was nothing illegal about those contributions. This was long before McCain-Feingold.

The issue in the Keating Five scandal was whether or not McCain took inappropriate action on behalf of Mr. Keating and on that issue, the Senate ethics committee cleared him of impropriety but criticized him for poor judgment. It's clearly false for you to say that he took money illegally because he wasn't even accused of that. And while it's always possible that the ethics committee got it wrong, for you to pretend that it's a known fact that he committed any crime in relation to the Keating Five is also false.



;)Wrong. He ILLEGALLY took money from Keating and then once he was caught, TWO YEARS LATER, he then paid back the money. The government protects their own. See Bill Clinton, George W. , Nixon, etc... for those doing things that aren't up to snuff, but they still got off with a slap on the wrist, same thing here.

He most certainly was caught of wrong-doing and even HE ACKNOWLEDGES it, why can't you?

patteeu
07-24-2008, 11:42 AM
Wrong. He ILLEGALLY took money from Keating and then once he was caught, TWO YEARS LATER, he then paid back the money. The government protects their own. See Bill Clinton, George W. , Nixon, etc... for those doing things that aren't up to snuff, but they still got off with a slap on the wrist, same thing here.

He most certainly was caught of wrong-doing and even HE ACKNOWLEDGES it, why can't you?

When you start providing quotes from reputable sources (I'd even accept wiki on something like this), I'll take your allegations seriously. As far as I can tell, you're still wrong. He didn't illegally take money and he hasn't acknowledged anything other than giving people the "wrong appearance".

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 11:58 AM
Your refusal to accept the truth shows you aren't very open to discussion on this issue, but here's another article among the THOUSANDS out there that you could easily access, if you actually sought the truth...BTW there are quotes from McCain himself...


http://www.arizonarepublic.com/special39/articles/1003mccainbook5.html

Chapter V: The Keating Five
By Bill Muller
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 03, 1999 12:12:00


As a war hero and U.S. senator, John McCain's life has been chronicled in pictures.

There are grainy mug shots of a young McCain, printed in U.S. newspapers after his jet was shot down over North Vietnam. There are black-and-white images of his return, grinning and waving, his hair turned prematurely gray by 5 1/2 years of malnutrition and torture in a Hanoi prison camp.

In happier times, there is McCain holding his newborn daughter while his wife, Cindy, smiles from her hospital bed.

But it is an innocent vacation picture that symbolizes McCain's Achilles heel and carries the reminder of the scandal that threatened his political career.

In the picture, which was taken in the Bahamas, McCain is seated on a bandstand while wearing an outrageous, straw party hat. Next to him on the dais, a bottle tipped to his lips, sits Charles Keating III, son of developer Charles H Keating Jr.

McCain calls the Keating scandal ''my asterisk.'' Over the years, his opponents have failed to turn it into a period.




It all started in March 1987. Charles H Keating Jr., the flamboyant developer and anti-porn crusader, needed help. The government was poised to seize Lincoln Savings and Loan, a freewheeling subsidiary of Keating's American Continental Corp.

As federal auditors crawled all over Lincoln, Keating was not content to wait and hope for the best. He'd spread a lot of money around Washington, and it was time to call in his chits.

One of his first stops was Sen. Dennis DeConcini. The Arizona lawmaker was one of Keating's most loyal friends in Congress, and for good reason. Keating had given thousands of dollars to DeConcini's campaigns. At one point, DeConcini even pushed Keating for ambassador to the Bahamas, where Keating owned a luxurious vacation home.

Now Keating had a job for DeConcini. He wanted him to organize a meeting with the regulators. The message: Get off Lincoln's back. Eventually, DeConcini would set up a meeting between five senators and the regulators. One of them was John McCain.

McCain knew Keating well. His ties to the home builder dated to 1981, when the two men met at a Navy League dinner where McCain was the speaker.

After the speech, Keating walked up to McCain and told him that he, too, was a Navy flier, and that he greatly respected McCain's war record. He met McCain's wife and family. The two men became friends.

Charlie Keating always took care of his friends, especially those in politics. John McCain was no exception.

In 1982, during McCain's first run for the House, Keating held a fund-raiser for him, collecting more than $11,000 from 40 employees of American Continental Corp. McCain would spend more than $550,000 to win the primary and the general election.

In 1983, during McCain's second House race, Keating hosted a $1,000-a-plate dinner for McCain, though he had no serious competition and coasted into his second term. When McCain pushed for the Senate in 1986, Keating was there with more than $50,000.

By 1987, McCain had received about $112,000 in political contributions from Keating and his associates.

McCain had also carried a little water for Keating in Washington. While in the House, McCain, along with a majority of representatives, co-sponsored a resolution to delay new regulations designed to curb risky investments by thrifts like Lincoln.
HESITANT PARTICIPANT


Despite his history with Keating, McCain was hesitant about intervening. At that point, he had been in the Senate only three months. DeConcini wanted McCain to fly to San Francisco with him and talk to the regulators. McCain refused.

Keating would not be dissuaded.

On March 24 at 9:30 a.m., Keating went to DeConcini's office and asked him if the meeting with the regulators was on. DeConcini told Keating that McCain was nervous.

''McCain's a wimp,'' Keating replied, according to the book Trust Me, by Michael Binstein and Charles Bowden. ''We'll go talk to him.''

Keating had other business on the Hill and did not reach McCain's office until 1:30. A DeConcini staffer had already told McCain about the wimp comment.

When he arrived, Keating presented McCain with a laundry list of demands for the regulators.

McCain told Keating that he would attend the meeting and find out whether Keating was getting treated fairly, but that was all.

''Keating gave me the clear impression that he expected me to do more,'' McCain said later. ''He had several specific requests.''

When Keating questioned his courage, McCain invoked his POW experience. He told Keating that he didn't spend 5 1/2 years in the Hanoi Hilton to be called a coward.

The two argued, then Keating stormed out.

Despite the dust-up, McCain attended not one but two meetings with the regulators. McCain later explained that he thought it was the right thing to do, because Keating was a constituent.

McCain would live to regret it.

The first meeting, on April 2 in DeConcini's office, included Ed Gray, chairman of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board, as well as four senators: DeConcini, McCain, Alan Cranston, D-Calif., and John Glenn, D-Ohio.

The meeting had a clandestine air. Gray came alone. None of the senators brought their aides. DeConcini asked Gray to withdraw a regulation in order to help Lincoln. Gray shook his head.

For Keating, the meeting was a bust. Gray told the senators that as head of the loan board, he worried about the big picture. He didn't have any specific information about Lincoln. Bank regulators in San Francisco would be versed in that, not him. Gray offered to set up a meeting between the senators and the San Francisco regulators.

The second meeting was on April 9. The same four senators attended, along with Sen. Don Riegle, D-Mich. Also at the meeting were William Black, then deputy director of the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corp., James Cirona, president of the Federal Home Loan Bank of San Francisco, and Michael Patriarca, director of agency functions at the FSLIC.

In a recent interview with The Republic, Black said the meeting was a show of force by Keating, who wanted the senators to pressure the regulators into dropping their case against Lincoln. The thrift was in trouble for violating ''direct investment'' rules, which prohibited S&Ls from taking large ownership positions in various ventures.

''The Senate is a really small club, like the cliche goes,'' Black said. ''And you really did have one-twentieth of the Senate in one room, called by one guy, who was the biggest crook in the S&L debacle.''

Black said the senators could have accomplished their goal ''if they had simply had us show up and see this incredible room and said, 'Hi. Charles Keating asked us to meet with you. 'Bye.' ''
'ALWAYS HAMLET'
The five senators, including McCain, seemed like a united front to Black.

''They presented themselves as a group,'' Black said, ''and DeConcini is the dad, who's going to take the primary speaking role. Both meetings are in his office, and in both cases it's 'we' want this, with no one going, 'What do you mean we, kemo sabe?' ''

According to nearly verbatim notes taken by Black, McCain started the second meeting with a careful comment.

''One of our jobs as elected officials is to help constituents in a proper fashion,'' McCain said. ''ACC (American Continental Corp.) is a big employer and important to the local economy. I wouldn't want any special favors for them. . . .

''I don't want any part of our conversation to be improper.''

Black said the comment had the opposite effect for the regulators. It made them nervous about what might really be going on.

''McCain was the weirdest,'' Black said. ''They were all different in their own way. McCain was always Hamlet . . . wringing his hands about what to do.''

Glenn, a former astronaut and the first American to orbit the Earth, was not as tactful.

''To be blunt, you should charge them or get off their backs,'' he told the regulators. ''If things are bad there, get to them. Their view is that they took a failing business and put it back on its feet. It's now viable and profitable. They took it off the endangered species list. Why has the exam dragged on and on and on?''

Added DeConcini, ''What's wrong with this if they're willing to clean up their act?''

Cirona, the banking official, told the senators that it was ''very unusual'' to hold a meeting to discuss a particular company.

DeConcini shot back: ''It's very unusual for us to have a company that could be put out of business by its regulators.''

The meeting went on. McCain was quiet, while DeConcini carried the ball. The regulators told the senators that Lincoln was in trouble. The thrift, Cirona said, was a ''ticking time bomb.''

Then Patriarca made a stunning comment, according to transcripts released later.

''We're sending a criminal referral to the Department of Justice,'' he said. ''Not maybe, we're sending one. This is an extraordinarily serious matter. It involves a whole range of imprudent actions. I can't tell you strongly enough how serious this is. This is not a profitable institution.''

The statement made DeConcini back off a little.

''The criminality surprises me,'' he said. ''We're not interested in discussing those issues. Our premise was that we had a viable institution concerned that it was being overregulated.''

''What can we say to Lincoln?'' Glenn asked.

''Nothing,'' Black responded, ''with regard to the criminal referral. They haven't, and won't be told by us that we're making one.''

''You haven't told them?'' Glenn asked.

''No,'' said Black. ''Justice would skin us alive if we did. Those referrals are very confidential. We can't prosecute anyone ourselves. All we can do is refer it to Justice.''

After the meeting, McCain was done with Keating.

''Again, I was troubled by the appearance of the meeting,'' McCain said later. ''I stated I didn't want any special favors from them. I only wanted them (Lincoln Savings) to be fairly treated.''

Black doesn't completely buy that argument. If McCain was concerned about Keating asking him to do things that were improper, why go to either meeting at all?

Black said McCain probably went because Keating was close to being the political godfather of Arizona and McCain still had plenty of ambition.

''Keating was incredibly powerful,'' Black said. ''And incredibly useful.''

McCain's reservations aside, Keating accomplished his goal. He had bought some time, though the price was very high.
SHORT-LIVED REPRIEVE
A month later, the San Francisco regulators finished a yearlong audit and recommended that Lincoln be seized. But the report was virtually ignored because of politics on the bank board.

Gray was being replaced as chairman by Danny Wall, who was more sympathetic to Keating.

The audit, which described Lincoln as a thrift reeling out of control, sat on a shelf.

In September 1987, the investigation was taken away from the San Francisco office, away from Black and Patriarca. In May 1988, it was transferred to Washington, where Lincoln would get a new audit.

It was a win for Keating. A battle, not the war.

In Phoenix, the move sparked a triumphant party at the posh headquarters of American Continental.

Someone hurled a computer from the second floor, shattering a window. Keating, all 6-feet-5 of him, struck a Superman pose and ripped open his shirt to display a hand-drawn skull and crossbones over the letters FHLBB - the Federal Home Loan Bank Board.

A secretary climbed onto a desk to take photos, and American Continental executive Robert Kielty joined her. Keating grabbed a roll of tape and lashed their legs together.

Potted plants were knocked over. Beer and champagne were spilled on the carved wood desks. Kielty took a bottle of champagne and poured it down another secretary's blouse.

''Get this champagne colder,'' Keating yelled.

Back in San Francisco, Black was fuming.

''Clearly, we were shot in the back,'' he would say later.

Despite the reprieve, Keating's businesses continued to spiral downward, taking the five senators with him. News of the meeting leaked out, and now all five men were answering some very embarrassing questions.

''Did you lean on regulators for Charlie Keating?''

''Did you get campaign contributions in exchange for your cooperation?''

''Why did you protect Keating?''

Together, the five senators had accepted more than $300,000 in contributions from Keating, and their critics added a new term to the American lexicon:

Keating Five.

As the S&L failure deepened, the sheer magnitude of the losses hit the press. Billions of dollars had been squandered. The Keating Five became shorthand for the kind of political influence that money can buy. The five senators were linked as the gang who went to bat for an S&L bandit.

S&L ''trading cards'' came out. The Keating Five card showed Charles Keating holding up his hand, with a senator's head adorning each finger. McCain was on Keating's pinkie.

As the Keating investigation dragged through 1988, McCain dodged the body blows. Most landed on DeConcini, who had arranged the meetings and had other close ties to Keating, including $50 million in loans from Keating to DeConcini's aides.

But McCain made a critical error.

In spinning his side of the Keating story, McCain adopted the blanket defense that Keating was a constituent and that he had every right to ask his senators for help. In attending the meetings, McCain said, he simply wanted to make sure that Keating was treated like any other constituent.

Keating was far more than a constituent to McCain, however.

On Oct. 8, 1989, The Republic revealed that McCain's wife and her father had invested $359,100 in a Keating shopping center in April 1986, a year before McCain met with the regulators.

The paper also reported that the McCains, sometimes accompanied by their daughter and baby-sitter, had made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, sometimes aboard the American Continental jet. Three of trips were made during vacations to Keating's opulent Bahamas retreat at Cat Cay.

McCain also did not pay Keating for the trips until years after they were taken, when he learned that Keating was in trouble over Lincoln. Total cost: $13,433.

When the story broke, McCain did nothing to help himself. When reporters first called him, he was furious. Caught out in the open, the former fighter pilot let go with a barrage of cover fire. Sen. Hothead came out in all his glory.

''You're a liar,''' McCain snapped Sept. 29 when a Republic reporter asked him about business ties between his wife and Keating.

''That's the spouse's involvement, you idiot,'' McCain said later in the same conversation. ''You do understand English, don't you?''

He also belittled the reporters when they asked about his wife's ties to Keating.

''It's up to you to find that out, kids.''

And then he played the POW card.

''Even the Vietnamese didn't question my ethics,'' McCain said.

The paper ran the story a few days later. At a news conference, McCain was a changed man. He stood calmly for 90 minutes and answered every question.

On the shopping center, his defense was simple. The deal did not involve him. The shares in the shopping center had been purchased by a partnership set up between McCain's wife and her father.

But McCain also had to explain his trips with Keating and why he didn't pay Keating back right away.

On that score, McCain admitted he had fouled up. He said he should have reimbursed Keating immediately, not waited several years. His staff said it was an oversight, but it looked bad, McCain jetting around with Keating, then going to bat for him with the federal regulators.

Meanwhile, Lincoln continued to founder.

In April 1989, two years after the Keating Five meetings, the government seized Lincoln, which declared bankruptcy. In September 1990, Keating was booked into Los Angeles County Jail, charged with 42 counts of fraud. His bond was set at $5 million.

During Keating's eventual trial, the prosecution produced a parade of elderly investors who had lost their life's savings by investing in American Continental junk bonds.
'THE ULTIMATE SURVIVOR'
In November 1990, the Senate Ethics Committee convened to decide what punishment, if any, should be doled out to the Keating Five.

Robert Bennett, who would later represent President Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones case, was the special counsel for the committee. In his opening remarks, he slammed DeConcini but went lightly on McCain, the lone Republican ensnared with four Democrats.

''In the case of Senator McCain, there is very substantial evidence that he thought he had an understanding with Senator DeConcini's office that certain matters would not be gone into at the meeting with (bank board) Chairman (Ed) Gray,'' Bennett said.

''Moreover, there is substantial evidence that, as a result of Senator McCain's refusal to do certain things, he had a fallout with Mr. Keating.''

McCain, the ultimate survivor, had dodged another missile.

Among the Keating Five, McCain received the most direct contributions from Keating. But the investigation found that he was the least culpable, along with Glenn. McCain attended the meetings but did nothing afterward to stop Lincoln's death spiral.

Lincoln's losses eventually were set at $3.4 billion, the most expensive failure in the national S&L scandal.

McCain also looked good in contrast to DeConcini, who continued to defend Keating until fall 1989, when federal regulators filed a $1.1 billion civil racketeering and fraud suit against Keating, accusing him of siphoning Lincoln's deposits to his family and into political campaigns.

In the end, McCain received only a mild rebuke from the Ethics Committee for exercising ''poor judgment'' for intervening with the federal regulators on behalf of Keating. Still, he felt tarred by the affair.

''The appearance of it was wrong,'' McCain said recently. ''It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do.''

McCain noted that Bennett, the independent counsel, recommended that McCain and Glenn be dropped from the investigation.

''For the first time in history, the Ethics Committee overruled the recommendation of the independent counsel,'' McCain said. ''I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that I was the only Republican of the five and the Democrats were in the majority (in the Senate).''

But McCain owns up to his mistake:

''I was judged eventually, after three years, of using, quote, poor judgment, and I agree with that assessment.''

patteeu
07-24-2008, 12:07 PM
Good grief. Could you at least highlight the section that that you mistakenly think specifically supports your allegations. FWIW, I've already seen that article and I didn't see anything that backs up what you've claimed in this thread.

And, yes, there are quotes from McCain himself in that article, but they say what I said he said not what you said he said.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 12:28 PM
Good grief. Could you at least highlight the section that that you mistakenly think specifically supports your allegations. FWIW, I've already seen that article and I didn't see anything that backs up what you've claimed in this thread.

And, yes, there are quotes from McCain himself in that article, but they say what I said he said not what you said he said.Do all this work to get you to accept the truth, when you have fought it tooth and nail? You refuse to see the truth, so this sounds like a waste of my time. I stand by what I said and if you are willing to actually admit McCain made a mistake, then we can carry on this discussion, otherwise I'll chalk up to you ducking and weaving. McCain was shown to have committed fraudelent behavior EVIDENCED by paying back the money and having a congressional hearing on the matter. Now I suppose you'll tell me a congressional hearing isn't a worthwhile "source."

You either can comprehend what was written or you can't. It's looking more and more like you refuse to see the truth, even McCain himself admits he ****ed up and yet, you can't. That's not surprising for a it's my politcal party or nothing at all-not exactly an open-minded approach.

patteeu
07-24-2008, 12:42 PM
Do all this work to get you to accept the truth, when you have fought it tooth and nail? You refuse to see the truth, so this sounds like a waste of my time. I stand by what I said and if you are willing to actually admit McCain made a mistake, then we can carry on this discussion, otherwise I'll chalk up to you ducking and weaving. McCain was shown to have committed fraudelent behavior EVIDENCED by paying back the money and having a congressional hearing on the matter. Now I suppose you'll tell me a congressional hearing isn't a worthwhile "source."

You either can comprehend what was written or you can't. It's looking more and more like you refuse to see the truth, even McCain himself admits he ****ed up and yet, you can't. That's not surprising for a it's my politcal party or nothing at all-not exactly an open-minded approach.

You've done nothing but make wild, unsupported accusations and after repeated requests for backup you've tried to snow me with a blizzard of nonresponsive BS. It shouldn't be difficult at all for you to pinpoint the specific part of that comprehensive article in post 197 that supports what you've alleged, but since it's not really there you can't do that. Your bluff was called and now it's time for you to get your hands off of my pot.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:29 PM
You've done nothing but make wild, unsupported accusations and after repeated requests for backup you've tried to snow me with a blizzard of nonresponsive BS. It shouldn't be difficult at all for you to pinpoint the specific part of that comprehensive article in post 197 that supports what you've alleged, but since it's not really there you can't do that. Your bluff was called and now it's time for you to get your hands off of my pot.
Apparently you can't read. I'm done ****ing with someone who can't even admit what they read. It is bull shit on your part and you know it. McCain , himself has admitted he made a mistake, which is more than I can say for you. If you want to acknowledge the comments, than I will be more than civil, but if you are going to be Ray Charles(blind), when the words are there in black and white, that's your problem.

You haven't admitted there is a Keating Five, that makes you a fool.

patteeu
07-24-2008, 03:13 PM
Apparently you can't read. I'm done ****ing with someone who can't even admit what they read. It is bull shit on your part and you know it. McCain , himself has admitted he made a mistake, which is more than I can say for you. If you want to acknowledge the comments, than I will be more than civil, but if you are going to be Ray Charles(blind), when the words are there in black and white, that's your problem.

You haven't admitted there is a Keating Five, that makes you a fool.

:LOL: Of course you're ****ing done. I'm the one who finished you. John McCain never "illegally took money from Charles Keating". You do remember saying that he did, don't you? It would have been so much better for you if you'd have just admitted you made a mistake and revised your original comments.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:32 PM
:LOL: Of course you're ****ing done. I'm the one who finished you. John McCain never "illegally took money from Charles Keating". You do remember saying that he did, don't you? It would have been so much better for you if you'd have just admitted you made a mistake and revised your original comments.Again, can you READ???


After McCain's election to the House in 1982, he and his family made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, three of which were to Keating's Bahamas retreat. McCain did not disclose the trips (as he WAS REQUIRED to under House RULES) until the scandal broke in 1989. At that point, he paid Keating $13,433 for the flights.

If he's not guilty why did he HAVE TO pay him back? He broke the House rules on ethics and was caught. What part of that don't you comprehend?

patteeu
07-24-2008, 04:57 PM
Again, can you READ???


After McCain's election to the House in 1982, he and his family made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, three of which were to Keating's Bahamas retreat. McCain did not disclose the trips (as he WAS REQUIRED to under House RULES) until the scandal broke in 1989. At that point, he paid Keating $13,433 for the flights.

If he's not guilty why did he HAVE TO pay him back? He broke the House rules on ethics and was caught. What part of that don't you comprehend?

LMAO I thought you were ****ing done. :shrug:

I think it's you who can't read. First of all, "illegal" and breaking House rules are two dramatically different things. Are you begging for a redo now that you've made yourself look the fool?

Second, he reimbursed Keating of his own volition not because he had to pay him back. He apparently decided that it was the right thing to do because it "looked bad" not because he had done something wrong. I get this from your source.

Third, the ethics committee cleared McCain of wrongdoing and merely described his actions as "poor judgment". You can't win a pissing contest if you're peeing down your leg.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 05:11 PM
LMAO I thought you were ****ing done. :shrug:

I think it's you who can't read. First of all, "illegal" and breaking House rules are two dramatically different things. Are you begging for a redo now that you've made yourself look the fool?

Second, he reimbursed Keating of his own volition not because he had to pay him back. He apparently decided that it was the right thing to do because it "looked bad" not because he had done something wrong. I get this from your source.

Third, the ethics committee cleared McCain of wrongdoing and merely described his actions as "poor judgment". You can't win a pissing contest if you're peeing down your leg.I asked if he was a crook. He most certainly was found of wrong-doing, whether you admit to or not, is of no consiquence to me.
Taking money without consideration for house rules is ILLEGAL. Again, they gave him a slap on the wrist for it, but he did do it and that's the entire basis of this discussion. I know you can't stand for your political party to have egg on their face but McCain could fry an egg on his ****ing forehead with all of his political blunders, but since he's a republican you'll back him no matter what, whether he's right or wrong, and he was most certainly WRONG in his actions. Surely, you can see that, but you'd rather make this personal, than actually quanify his actions. You can't back what he did, so you'd rather call me out as if I somehow have anything to do with the KEATING FIVE SCANDAL, rather than debunk what has been said.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 05:21 PM
Campaign finance reform is the common term for the political effort in the United States to change the involvement of money in politics, primarily in political campaigns.

Although attempts to regulate campaign finance by legislation date back to 1867, the first successful attempts nationally to regulate and enforce campaign finance originated in the 1970s. The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) of 1972 required candidates to DISCLOSE sources of campaign contributions and campaign expenditure. It was amended in 1974 with the introduction of legal limits on contributions, and creation of the Federal Election Commission (FEC). It attempted to restrict the INFLUENCE of wealthy individuals by limiting individual donations to $1000 and donations by Political Action Committees (PACs) to $5000. These specific election donations are known as ‘Hard money’.




Hmmm $13,000 is alot more than the maximum allowed BY LAW.

patteeu
07-24-2008, 09:41 PM
I asked if he was a crook. He most certainly was found of wrong-doing, whether you admit to or not, is of no consiquence to me.
Taking money without consideration for house rules is ILLEGAL. Again, they gave him a slap on the wrist for it, but he did do it and that's the entire basis of this discussion. I know you can't stand for your political party to have egg on their face but McCain could fry an egg on his ****ing forehead with all of his political blunders, but since he's a republican you'll back him no matter what, whether he's right or wrong, and he was most certainly WRONG in his actions. Surely, you can see that, but you'd rather make this personal, than actually quanify his actions. You can't back what he did, so you'd rather call me out as if I somehow have anything to do with the KEATING FIVE SCANDAL, rather than debunk what has been said.

You're getting a little twisted here. It's you who is on the hook for backing up your wild accusations, not me. You're wrong about him taking money illegally and that's why you can't find any source that supports what you're saying.

Campaign finance reform is the common term for the political effort in the United States to change the involvement of money in politics, primarily in political campaigns.

Although attempts to regulate campaign finance by legislation date back to 1867, the first successful attempts nationally to regulate and enforce campaign finance originated in the 1970s. The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) of 1972 required candidates to DISCLOSE sources of campaign contributions and campaign expenditure. It was amended in 1974 with the introduction of legal limits on contributions, and creation of the Federal Election Commission (FEC). It attempted to restrict the INFLUENCE of wealthy individuals by limiting individual donations to $1000 and donations by Political Action Committees (PACs) to $5000. These specific election donations are known as ‘Hard money’.




Hmmm $13,000 is alot more than the maximum allowed BY LAW.

For one thing, the $13,000 wasn't money given to McCain, it was the value (at least in someone's estimation) of trips he and his family took at Keating's expense. More importantly, relative to the campaign finance laws that you talk about here, it wasn't a campaign contribution. It's absolutely clear (although apparently not clear enough to get through to you) that McCain broke no law. I'm willing to entertain the idea that there might have been a House rule against him taking those trips, but you'd have to back that up with a reliable source to convince me. Everything I've read, including what you've tried to pass off in this thread, suggests that there isn't even enough evidence to say he violated House rules.

Your original claim was that he "illegally took money". In the events that you have in mind, he didn't take money and it wasn't illegal in any event. You can't get any more wrong than that.

tiptap
07-24-2008, 10:43 PM
Romney will be the attack dog... will go after Obama hard, will be able to raise 60 million and will keep Colorado and Nevada Red.... he makes the most sense.

I'll take that bet on Colorado and Nevada.