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Redrum_69
07-24-2008, 07:04 AM
Simple question with a simple answer..


Do you believe in heaven or hell?

Redrum_69
07-24-2008, 09:33 AM
So everyone here is an atheist?

Smed1065
07-25-2008, 10:48 PM
Being a chiefs fan has made me ponder that question.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 10:49 PM
Honestly?

I'm not sure what to believe.

I just try to be a good guy and hope for the best.

KCUnited
07-25-2008, 10:51 PM
Neither.

Deist.

But I'd like to send a shout out to both Satan and Lucifer, both those guys have stood by me through thick and thin. I'd also like to shout at the Dark Lord for casting his shadow over my competition. Long live Cthuculu.

FAX
07-25-2008, 10:55 PM
I believe that a form of Heaven certainly awaits us after death. I'm not so sure about hell, though.

Unless it's where Faider fans go to have tatoos removed.

FAX

Baconeater
07-25-2008, 10:55 PM
I believe Heaven and Hell was a great album.

RJ
07-25-2008, 10:58 PM
For most of us that is neither a simple question nor a simple answer.

Mark Twain's "Captain Stormfield's Visit to heaven" pretty much covers my idea of how things will/should be.

Smed1065
07-25-2008, 11:06 PM
If I knew, I would not be here!

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:08 PM
Nope.

But if there is:
You go to heaven for the food. You go to hell for the people.

Fairplay
07-25-2008, 11:10 PM
There has to be something after this life. Why not.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:14 PM
There has to be something after this life. Why not.
Maybe another?

You learn something from each life... until you're ready to move on?

I read a book about that once...

luv
07-25-2008, 11:15 PM
Honestly?

I'm not sure what to believe.

I just try to be a good guy and hope for the best.

I think that's all any of us can do. Only, I try to be a good woman instead of guy.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:16 PM
I think that's all any of us can do. Only, I try to be a good woman instead of guy.

ORLY?
o:-)

luv
07-25-2008, 11:17 PM
Maybe another?

You learn something from each life... until you're ready to move on?

I read a book about that once...

You mean I've got to do this again?

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 11:18 PM
You mean I've got to do this again?

Yep. And you have to keep trying until you get promoted.

luv
07-25-2008, 11:19 PM
Yep. And you have to keep trying until you get promoted.

How long is earth scheduled to be in existence again?

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 11:20 PM
How long is earth scheduled to be in existence again?

Depends. According to the Mayans...2012.

According to other calendars 4000 AD or so.

According to the Vogon Construction Fleet that is here to make way for a Hyperspace Bypass, next Thursday.

Fairplay
07-25-2008, 11:21 PM
Heck, even (most) everyone's conscience narks on you from doing stuff wrong or right.

I feel bad for giving luv crap on some her threads even.

I don't really mean it though.

Baconeater
07-25-2008, 11:23 PM
Depends. According to the Mayans...2012.

According to other calendars 4000 AD or so.

According to the Vogon Construction Fleet that is here to make way for a Hyperspace Bypass, next Thursday.
I thought it was going to end next month when they turn on that supercollider thingy? :shrug:

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 11:24 PM
I thought it was going to end next month when they turn on that supercollider thingy? :shrug:

I hope not. That would play havoc with the rebuilding process.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:24 PM
You mean I've got to do this again?

If you really think about it, that could be worse than hell. Or is that possible? Maybe this is hell, and we have to deal with this bullshit until we figure it out. So simple, yet so intricate. Kind of like poker.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:25 PM
I thought it was going to end next month when they turn on that supercollider thingy? :shrug:

Consider yourself having a front row seat. :)

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:26 PM
I think that's all any of us can do. Only, I try to be a good woman instead of guy.Yeah... because anyone who tells you they know for a fact is either misguided, or delusional.

I believe in a higher power... I do. I also believe in evolution.

Science can explain a lot... but... I don't know how you can explain consciousness, if that makes sense...

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:28 PM
Yeah... because anyone who tells you they know for a fact is either misguided, or delusional.

I believe in a higher power... I do. I also believe in evolution.

Science can explain a lot... but... I don't know how you can explain consciousness, if that makes sense...

The difference between right and wrong. It is a sense. Evolution through Creation? Who woulda thunk it?

Fairplay
07-25-2008, 11:28 PM
I grew up a catholic. I remember thinking that i would be spending a ton of time in purgatory before the man let me in the front gates. For sure.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:29 PM
Where did the bang come from? Something, somewhere, sometime, somehow HAD to be created.

luv
07-25-2008, 11:29 PM
Heck, even (most) everyone's conscience narks on you from doing stuff wrong or right.

I feel bad for giving luv crap on some her threads even.

I don't really mean it though.

If I wasn't the one catching shit, then it would be some other poor soul who might not handle it as well.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:30 PM
Where did the bang come from? Something, somewhere, sometime, somehow HAD to be created.

Not really. The universe could have created itself.

luv
07-25-2008, 11:31 PM
Yeah... because anyone who tells you they know for a fact is either misguided, or delusional.

I believe in a higher power... I do. I also believe in evolution.

Science can explain a lot... but... I don't know how you can explain consciousness, if that makes sense...

Makes sense to me.

Fairplay
07-25-2008, 11:32 PM
If I wasn't the one catching shit, then it would be some other poor soul who might not handle it as well.



Yeah. Don't take me seriously. I'm just mess'in with ya.

I like sarcasm. That's how i am. Just with some people though. Depends who they are i guess.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:33 PM
"consciousness" is the best word I can think of... That's hard to explain. It's why we ask these questions, and wonder about these things.

Science can't explain that... can it?

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:33 PM
Not really. The universe could have created itself.

Who created the universe? I just don't understand how something that doesn't exist can become something that does exist.

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 11:35 PM
Who created the universe? I just don't understand how something that doesn't exist can become something that does exist.

I think he's alluding to the theory of an infinite series of expansions, contractions, and re-expansions.

As for a "prime cause", it's certainly possible though I have no idea if it's a "higher power" or an unexplained natural process. :shrug:

luv
07-25-2008, 11:35 PM
"consciousness" is the best word I can think of... That's hard to explain. It's why we ask these questions, and wonder about these things.

Science can't explain that... can it?

Free will?

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:36 PM
Free will?Or a soul...

It's there. I don't pretend to know what it is... but it exists.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:37 PM
I think he's alluding to the theory of an infinite series of expansions, contractions, and re-expansions.

As for a "prime cause", it's certainly possible though I have no idea if it's a "higher power" or an unexplained natural process. :shrug:

What expands? What contracts? That's where I'm lost. It had to be created at some point.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:38 PM
I'm getting waaay to deep...lol

But yeah...

Simply Red
07-25-2008, 11:40 PM
I thought I was in hell when your mom fixed me some kool-aide and grilled cheese sandwiches last night.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:40 PM
I'm getting waaay to deep...lol

But yeah...

For anyone who doesn't ponder this kind of stuff, I hope that ignorance is bliss. We have a responsibility to ourselves to expand our consciousness as much as possible.

luv
07-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Or a soul...

It's there. I don't pretend to know what it is... but it exists.

I think emotions could be part of it as well. I still wonder why I like to just sit and cry sometimes. I'm a chick, I know.

I get what you're saying though. The part of you that feels, imagines, hopes, cares, wonders, etc.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:41 PM
I think he's alluding to the theory of an infinite series of expansions, contractions, and re-expansions.

As for a "prime cause", it's certainly possible though I have no idea if it's a "higher power" or an unexplained natural process. :shrug:That's the thing...

Nobody knows anything. We guess and wonder.

I have no doubt that 99.99999% of religion is mythology.

But we can think about where we came from, and and question it.

How did that happen?

luv
07-25-2008, 11:42 PM
For anyone who doesn't ponder this kind of stuff, I hope that ignorance is bliss. We have a responsibility to ourselves to expand our consciousness as much as possible.

Is it me, or is it just really hard to take you seriously whenever you've got Mario 1UP'ing what looks like a dead princess as your avatar? :p

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:43 PM
Is it me, or is it just really hard to take you seriously whenever you've got Mario 1UP'ing what looks like a dead princess as your avatar? :p

Ha, I'm in at work mode. I forgot about stocking up on life.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:44 PM
Is it me, or is it just really hard to take you seriously whenever you've got Mario 1UP'ing what looks like a dead princess as your avatar? :pLMAO

Don't hate on Mario... ;)

Fairplay
07-25-2008, 11:45 PM
"consciousness" is the best word I can think of... That's hard to explain. It's why we ask these questions, and wonder about these things.

Science can't explain that... can it?



I seriously doubt it. Or a ineffectual explanation at best.

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 11:46 PM
What expands? What contracts? That's where I'm lost. It had to be created at some point.

In the case of this part of the multiverse, a bubble of space-time.

As for "it had to be created at some point"..just to play Advocatus Diaboli, if something cannot come from nothing, then whence came God?



How did that happen?


I don't know. Perhaps it's something "mystical", perhaps it's simply an unknown threshold that is crossed when a neural network reaches a sufficient level of complexity.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:47 PM
Who created the universe? I just don't understand how something that doesn't exist can become something that does exist.

Actually, there are some things wrong with that premise.

First, on earth, something cannot come from nothing. But we have not begun to explore the universe. Moreover, at this time something cannot come from nothing. Maybe in the future, it can.

Second, what created the creator? See, you merely insert an unnecessary addition to the equation. Occams Razor. If you don't, you'll be stuck in the loop of "what created the creator's creator".

luv
07-25-2008, 11:47 PM
It's all about where you decide to put your trust. Especially when something tragic happens. How do you get through? Do you pray? Do you rely on your own strength of character? Do you just write it off to fate?

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:48 PM
Actually, there are some things wrong with that premise.

First, on earth, something cannot come from nothing. But we have not begun to explore the universe. Moreover, at this time something cannot come from nothing. Maybe in the future, it can.

Second, what created the creator? See, you merely insert an unnecessary addition to the equation. Occams Razor. If you don't, you'll be stuck in the loop of "what created the creator's creator".In layman's terms...

The chicken or the egg.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:48 PM
In layman's terms...

The chicken or the egg.

At the current time, yes.

Fairplay
07-25-2008, 11:49 PM
Is it me, or is it just really hard to take you seriously whenever you've got Mario 1UP'ing what looks like a dead princess as your avatar? :p


Good news! She just has a date rape drug in her. Princess is out of it. So Mario is pounding the **** out of her for a while.

She will wake up tomorrow though. Bright eyed and bushy tailed.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:50 PM
It's all about where you decide to put your trust. Especially when something tragic happens. How do you get through? Do you pray? Do you rely on your own strength of character? Do you just write it off to fate?

I contend that prayer is merely someone expressing themselves outside themselves. Essentially, they are practicing their own psychotherapy. And psychotherapy shouldn't be taken with a negative correlation.

luv
07-25-2008, 11:51 PM
Good news! She just has a date rape drug in her. Princess is out of it. So Mario is pounding the **** out of her for a while.

She will wake up tomorrow though. Bright eyed and bushy tailed.

And possibly wondering why she's walking funny.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:51 PM
Word. I suppose if God is infinite the Universe could be as well. So God is a way for the mentally ill to rationalize? Heh, It's really kind of f*cked up on both sides of the fence.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:53 PM
I guess I've spilled the beans as far as my "spirituality" goes.

(like I said before.. I'll try to be a good guy, and hope for the best.)

Out before the arguments start....

:)

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:54 PM
Word. I suppose if God is infinite the Universe could be as well. So God is a way for the mentally ill to rationalize? Heh, It's really kind of f*cked up on both sides of the fence.

God is merely the personification of the unknown. A substitute for the gaps other areas of knowledge cannot fill. That's why the number of gaps are decreasing rapidly. An example of a gap would be what came before "Germ Theory".

Smed1065
07-25-2008, 11:54 PM
Where did the bang come from? Something, somewhere, sometime, somehow HAD to be created.

You can say that about everything?

Chicken or egg or?

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:55 PM
God is merely the personification of the unknown. A substitute for the gaps other areas of knowledge cannot fill. That's why the number of gaps are decreasing rapidly. An example of a gap would be what came before "Germ Theory".Man, you're in for a world of shit when the catholics wake up. :D

LMAO

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 11:56 PM
Word. I suppose if God is infinite the Universe could be as well. So God is a way for the mentally ill to rationalize? Heh, It's really kind of f*cked up on both sides of the fence.

I don't think "mentally ill" enters into it. I think it has to do with the finite attempting to comprehend the infinite.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:57 PM
You can say that about everything?

Chicken or egg or?

Technically, the chicken comes before the egg. The reproductive system has to come before the reproductive product. Now, what came before the chicken is entirely different. Most likely, it's just a decedent through natural selection (and now through domestication) from a single celled organism. Just like us.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:57 PM
I was just being a smart ass.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:57 PM
I don't think "mentally ill" enters into it. I think it has to do with the finite attempting to comprehend the infinite.Yet you, yourself, are finite.

Again... none of us know a damned thing...

luv
07-25-2008, 11:57 PM
I'm getting dizzy.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:57 PM
Man, you're in for a world of shit when the catholics wake up. :D

LMAO

I think I said it pretty objectively. And not very offendingly. Yeah, I made that word up.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:58 PM
I mean how could anyone take me seriously when I have Mario humpin a dead Princess in my avatar?

Mr. Flopnuts
07-25-2008, 11:58 PM
I think I said it pretty objectively. And not very offendingly. Yeah, I made that word up.

So you created it? Or did it evolve?

Smed1065
07-25-2008, 11:58 PM
Damn someone beat me to it.

I am amazed at the honesty of this thread. Most would say their way or the Highway.

irishjayhawk
07-25-2008, 11:59 PM
I don't think "mentally ill" enters into it. I think it has to do with the finite attempting to comprehend the infinite.

FTR, I agree with Adept re the "mentally ill" part. I do think that it is illogical of someone to arrive at the God Conclusion, but they are hardly mentally ill. Except, maybe, in some cases. Bill Donahue might be one. Which reminds me of the sweet South Park episode I watched today.

luv
07-25-2008, 11:59 PM
Some people just have to have an answer for everything. I'm content in my ignorance.

KcMizzou
07-25-2008, 11:59 PM
I think I said it pretty objectively. And not very offendingly. Yeah, I made that word up.
Ya know...

It was a pretty cool conversation.

These things usually turn ugly.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:00 AM
Damn someone beat me to it.

I am amazed at the honesty of this thread. Most would say their way or the Highway.

I'm only here because the other posters in this thread are guys who I know to be objective. Oh, and gals. I usually avoid these threads like the plague.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:00 AM
Yet you, yourself, are finite.

Again... none of us know a damned thing...

Of course I am. And I quite agree. The only thing I'm really fairly certain of is if this universe was "created", whomever/whatever did it was very fond of Mathematics, Hydrogen, and Vacuum.

Ya know...

It was a pretty cool conversation.

These things usually turn ugly.

Nice to keep a thread like this from imploding. :thumb:

luv
07-26-2008, 12:00 AM
So you created it? Or did it evolve?

LMAO

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:00 AM
So you created it? Or did it evolve?

I'm not sure I understand your question?

Certainly, in the event of some single event "creating" the universe, it can also have evolved from that point. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Does that answer it?

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:01 AM
Some people just have to have an answer for everything. I'm content in my ignorance.

Ahh, bliss. That's what most people are chasing. You win.

Smed1065
07-26-2008, 12:01 AM
Ya know...

It was a pretty cool conversation.

These things usually turn ugly.

Or In DC-LOL

I actually bumped it from 7 days ago-then no one replied (for a reason I bet)

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:01 AM
Of course I am. And I quite agree. The only thing I'm really fairly certain of is if this universe was "created", whomever/whatever did it was very fond of Mathematics, Hydrogen, and Vacuum.

What would you speculate the creator's creator was fond of? :)

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:02 AM
I'm not sure I understand your question?

Certainly, in the event of some single event "creating" the universe, it can also have evolved from that point. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Does that answer it?

I was just talking about the word offendingly, you're gettin all DEEP on me man. :bong:

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:03 AM
I was just talking about the word offendingly, you're gettin all DEEP on me man. :bong:

Well, that joke definitely flew past me. Alas, it's late.

luv
07-26-2008, 12:03 AM
Ahh, bliss. That's what most people are chasing. You win.

I have enough things in my life that I have to be in control of. Sometimes it's nice to know there's an autopilot available. Having things together can really wear a person out.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:03 AM
I don't pretend that I know shit from shinola as my grandpappy used to say. I have my beliefs, and others have theirs. I respect them all. No one knows Jack shit, and Jack left town.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:03 AM
What would you speculate the creator's creator was fond of? :)

I have no data from which to speculate. I only speculate on those three specifics as they appear to be the most common elements regarding our part of the multiverse.

I don't pretend that I know shit from shinola as my grandpappy used to say. I have my beliefs, and others have theirs. I respect them all. No one knows Jack shit, and Jack left town.

Words of wisdom, from the man with the videogame date-rape avatar. Rep things in your direction.

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 12:04 AM
I'm still waiting for the science boys to explain consciousness. (I know there's a better word, but damned if I can think of it at the moment)

:p

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:06 AM
I have no data from which to speculate. I only speculate on those three specifics as they appear to be the most common elements regarding our part of the multiverse.



Words of wisdom, from the man with the videogame date-rape avatar. Rep things in your direction.

I'll tell you what though. As long as I can look at myself in the mirror every day and know I did the best I could, I can live with whatever happens. I like nirvana, and I like to sleep. So **** it, I win.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:06 AM
I'm still waiting for the science boys to explain consciousness.

:p

I'm generally a "science" guy, but I wouldn't presume to. I don't have sufficient data. :p

As a biology professor once said to me...a Frog can't explain a frog brain, but a Human generally can. I can't expect a Human to understand a Human brain.

I'll tell you what though. As long as I can look at myself in the mirror every day and know I did the best I could, I can live with whatever happens. I like nirvana, and I like to sleep. So **** it, I win.

Again, wise words. As long as I can face myself in the mirror, and feel I've stuck to my ideals (especially the Platinum Rule), I think I can be content with whatever happens.

luv
07-26-2008, 12:06 AM
This thread has been surprisingly entertaining. Especially for a Redrum thread. I have him on ignore, so I can only read his thread starters.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:07 AM
I have no data from which to speculate. I only speculate on those three specifics as they appear to be the most common elements regarding our part of the multiverse.


I command you to speculate. It could be anything. It could even be a boat.


I don't pretend that I know shit from shinola as my grandpappy used to say. I have my beliefs, and others have theirs. I respect them all. No one knows Jack shit, and Jack left town.

Unfortunately, and I note Adept's response, I have to disagree with that. And I believe that disagreement is where things turn ugly. So, I'll just give a brief thought:

How did we come to know anything we know if we started with that premise?

Fairplay
07-26-2008, 12:07 AM
Good game, this thread should be going through the weekend.

Night'

luv
07-26-2008, 12:07 AM
I'll tell you what though. As long as I can look at myself in the mirror every day and know I did the best I could, I can live with whatever happens. I like nirvana, and I like to sleep. So **** it, I win.

Hey. I thought I won!

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:07 AM
I'm still waiting for the science boys to explain consciousness. (I know there's a better word, but damned if I can think of it at the moment)

:p


I believe they have - in a general sense. Neurons firing to neurons creating different electrical pulses, which we have put into language.

:shrug:

luv
07-26-2008, 12:08 AM
Good game, this thread should be going through the weekend.

Night'

Sweet dreams.

luv
07-26-2008, 12:08 AM
I believe they have - in a general sense. Neurons firing to neurons creating different electrical pulses, which we have put into language.

:shrug:

I'm getting dizzy again.....

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 12:09 AM
I think "sentient" was the word I was looking for...

Damned Sci-fi flicks

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:09 AM
I command you to speculate. It could be anything. It could even be a boat.




Unfortunately, and I note Adept's response, I have to disagree with that. And I believe that disagreement is where things turn ugly. So, I'll just give a brief thought:

How did we come to know anything we know if we started with that premise?

Well, when I know I'm right, I don't respect what you think if you're wrong. If I don't know what the **** I'm talking about, and am certain you don't either, it doesn't really matter. So why worry about your evolution? I have my own that takes plenty of my energy.

Or maybe I just missunderstood what you were saying, and don't make any ****ing sense at all.

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 12:10 AM
I believe they have - in a general sense. Neurons firing to neurons creating different electrical pulses, which we have put into language.

:shrug:That's all you are?

Really?

I knew I shouldn't trust your movie reviews.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:11 AM
I command you to speculate.
I am no automaton. I have free will, and choose not to. :p

I believe they have - in a general sense. Neurons firing to neurons creating different electrical pulses, which we have put into language.

:shrug:

I think that is certainly part of it, but it's like peeking at an elephant through a keyhole. We're only seeing a small part of a vastly complex "process" for lack of a better term.

Furthermore, I'm far from certain if what you describe is a cause or an effect. :shrug:

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:12 AM
Well, when I know I'm right, I don't respect what you think if you're wrong. If I don't know what the **** I'm talking about, and am certain you don't either, it doesn't really matter. So why worry about your evolution? I have my own that takes plenty of my energy.

Or maybe I just missunderstood what you were saying, and don't make any ****ing sense at all.

I don't think you misunderstood but I don't think you made much sense either. :p

If we all start at the premise that no one knows, then how did we discover the things we've discovered?

We cannot be content on "well, I don't know and you don't know, so that's that". Otherwise we cannot go anywhere. And obviously, we've violated it because we're where we are - knowledge wise - now.

luv
07-26-2008, 12:13 AM
I think we started our journey talking about heaven and hell, and we've taken one hell of a detour.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:13 AM
That's all you are?

Really?

I knew I shouldn't trust your movie reviews.

:p

That's not all we are. It explains how we are. There's plenty of bacteria living inside of us. In fact, they outnumber us. Certainly, we wouldn't be here with out them. But no one really ever recognizes them.

We pick and choose what we want to make up ourselves. It doesn't explain anything, it just gives it a nice story.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:13 AM
I think we started our journey talking about heaven and hell, and we've taken one hell of a detour.

Did the hell of a detour lead to heaven? :hmmm:

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:14 AM
I think we started our journey talking about heaven and hell, and we've taken one hell of a detour.

I knew I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque!

luv
07-26-2008, 12:14 AM
Did the hell of a detour lead to heaven? :hmmm:

Not yet. But it's been a fun ride.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:16 AM
Not yet. But it's been a fun ride.

So it's not a stairway to heaven?

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:16 AM
Not yet. But it's been a fun ride.


I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe. But at least I'm enjoying the ride.

:)

luv
07-26-2008, 12:17 AM
So it's not a stairway to heaven?

Stairs?

Now I know I'll never make it.

LMAO

luv
07-26-2008, 12:17 AM
:)

We're going off the rails on a crazy train.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:18 AM
So it's not a stairway to heaven?

Dude! Didn't you see the sign?

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:18 AM
We're going off the rails on a crazy train.

ALL ABOARD!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Driving that train, high on cocaine...Casey Jones you better watch your speed.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:19 AM
Dude! Didn't you see the sign?

"He's put a blindfold on"
"It's a bold strategy. Let's see if it pays off for him, cotton"

Mr. Flopnuts
07-26-2008, 12:21 AM
I don't think you misunderstood but I don't think you made much sense either. :p

If we all start at the premise that no one knows, then how did we discover the things we've discovered?

We cannot be content on "well, I don't know and you don't know, so that's that". Otherwise we cannot go anywhere. And obviously, we've violated it because we're where we are - knowledge wise - now.

No, but we can believe what we believe, and not be short sighted enough to think it MUST be correct. We see our own mistakes all the time, it's not hard to imagine that what you know now may change.

How we learned it? ****, I don't know. The past doesn't mean much too me, but maybe it does to you. That's evolution. It's not right, or wrong, just different. Now I'm not making any sense.

luv
07-26-2008, 12:23 AM
Well, in thinking about heading to bed, dreams come to mind. I've always heard that dreams are your subconscious mind trying to convey something to your conscious mind.

To expand on the Deep Thought by KcMizzou, it would seem that we have more than one conscious mind, and they're trying to communicate with each other!

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:24 AM
No, but we can believe what we believe, and not be short sighted enough to think it MUST be correct. We see our own mistakes all the time, it's not hard to imagine that what you know now may change.

To quote Adept: Aye, therein lies the rub. See religion.

How we learned it? ****, I don't know. The past doesn't mean much too me, but maybe it does to you. That's evolution. It's not right, or wrong, just different. Now I'm not making any sense.

No, you are not making any sense now. :)

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:25 AM
Well, in thinking about heading to bed, dreams come to mind. I've always heard that dreams are your subconcsious mind trying to convey something to your conscious mind.

To expand on the Deep Thought by KcMizzou, it would seem that we have more than one conscious mind, and they're trying to communicate with each other!

Dreams are the royal road to the unconscious- Sigmund Freud

Then again, take the words of a coke-freak sex-obsessed guy for what they are worth. :p

luv
07-26-2008, 12:27 AM
Dreams are the royal road to the unconscious- Sigmund Freud

Then again, take the words of a coke-freak sex-obsessed guy for what they are worth. :p

Are you trying to tell me I've got issues with my mother?

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:28 AM
To quote Adept: Aye, therein lies the rub. See religion.


Actually, the quote is "Aye, there's the rub", and it belongs to The Bard.

Hamlet's Soliloquy, to be precise.

Are you trying to tell me I've got issues with my mother?

First, you need to lie down on this couch... :p

Now, tell me about your mother.

luv
07-26-2008, 12:33 AM
First, you need to lie down on this couch... :p


Actually, bed sounds good. To sleep. Alone.

There's just no way to make that sound right.

Trying to tie in to saying goodnight.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 12:34 AM
Actually, bed sounds good. To sleep. Alone.

There's just no way to make that sound right.

Trying to tie in to saying goodnight.

Goodnight. To sleep, perchance to dream (as we've already brought the Bard into the thread, thanks to IJH).

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 12:45 AM
Goodnight. To sleep, perchance to dream (as we've already brought the Bard into the thread, thanks to IJH).

To dream or not to dream, that's the question.


Er wait...

Smed1065
07-26-2008, 01:59 AM
This thread has been surprisingly entertaining. Especially for a Redrum thread. I have him on ignore, so I can only read his thread starters.

He started it 7 days ago with no reply but his own. I thought it merited a bump and I now have belief in CP again.

Threads like these are why I started posting here.

Blame him. I am impressed with the direction it took!

Guru
07-26-2008, 02:23 AM
I think we started our journey talking about heaven and hell, and we've taken one hell of a detour.

Detour? We are Chiefs fans. Of course we believe in hell.

JuicesFlowing
07-26-2008, 06:18 AM
Good news! She just has a date rape drug in her. Princess is out of it. So Mario is pounding the **** out of her for a while.

She will wake up tomorrow though. Bright eyed and bushy tailed.

It feels great to laugh at 7 in the morning ... that was funny.

tmax63
07-26-2008, 08:31 AM
Wouldn't it be more sticky-tailed or crusty-tailed?????

LiL stumppy
07-26-2008, 08:35 AM
I believe in Heaven and hell (in a different way than most.)

Mr. Kotter
07-26-2008, 09:05 AM
Yes.

petegz28
07-26-2008, 09:05 AM
Where did the bang come from? Something, somewhere, sometime, somehow HAD to be created.

Some will say the energy generated from the "natural" vaccuum of space.

That still relies on some form of physical laws. So even at that point one must ask what makes vacuum vaccuum? Where did the physical properties of vaccuum come from?

LocoChiefsFan
07-26-2008, 10:21 AM
Nope.

blueballs
07-26-2008, 10:29 AM
we'll all find out soon enough

CosmicPal
07-26-2008, 11:13 AM
Heaven

http://bp0.blogger.com/_D-UbfdB64Vo/Rndq4ZQu0aI/AAAAAAAAAkI/WsOMRL3O9Zs/s400/elisha-cuthbert005.jpg

Hell

http://people.zoy.org/~sam/douche.gif

HolyHandgernade
07-26-2008, 11:34 AM
Simple question with a simple answer..


Do you believe in heaven or hell?

Sure, but I call them knowledge and ignorance.

-HH

Bearcat
07-26-2008, 11:44 AM
Word. I suppose if God is infinite the Universe could be as well. So God is a way for the mentally ill to rationalize? Heh, It's really kind of f*cked up on both sides of the fence.

Maybe not mentally ill, but for some it's mental weakness. I've heard the more rational arguments that "I'm more spiritual than religious", "I don't know if God exists, but it gives me hope", etc. But, I think the mental weakness comes in when you start saying things like "I know where I'm going when I die", "There's absolutely no way I came from a monkey", "Everything is explained by God", "Everything is explained by science", etc.

It really is f***ed up on both sides of the fence. Either something came from nothing, which then exploded, or a creator came from nothing and made the whole freakin' universe. We're 99% monkey DNA either because of evolution or because someone upstairs didn't want to start from scratch.

As for the original question... I don't believe in heaven or hell. I live in too logical of a world where questions have to be asked, and when I went to church as a kid I thought I was blindly following a belief that shouldn't be questioned. If I'm wrong, I'll see you in Hell. :)

petegz28
07-26-2008, 12:21 PM
Maybe not mentally ill, but for some it's mental weakness. I've heard the more rational arguments that "I'm more spiritual than religious", "I don't know if God exists, but it gives me hope", etc. But, I think the mental weakness comes in when you start saying things like "I know where I'm going when I die", "There's absolutely no way I came from a monkey", "Everything is explained by God", "Everything is explained by science", etc.

It really is f***ed up on both sides of the fence. Either something came from nothing, which then exploded, or a creator came from nothing and made the whole freakin' universe. We're 99% monkey DNA either because of evolution or because someone upstairs didn't want to start from scratch.

As for the original question... I don't believe in heaven or hell. I live in too logical of a world where questions have to be asked, and when I went to church as a kid I thought I was blindly following a belief that shouldn't be questioned. If I'm wrong, I'll see you in Hell. :)


Agreed 100%. We share some similarities with all life forms, it's just that we match up with monkeys the most. The simple fact that we cannot exist without plantlife is often overlooked. Think about a world without any vegetation, there would not be any oxygen to breathe. We often look down the paths of mamals and at least superficially ignore the plant life.

Everything is God and Goddess and everything the Devil if you want to look at it that way. Both Sun and Moon give life along with water, fire and air.


But here is the capper........we are physically who we are because of our environment. In other words if we were in Space rather than on Earth our legs would be growing out of our necks, our muscles would be almost non-existent and really would be totally different beings physically.

So when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together to just sustain life on this planet, i.e., sun, air, water, gravity, one can hardly say it is a mere freak of nature tht all these things lines up perfectly. Then again though until something else is proven otherswise it is what most will go on.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 09:37 PM
Sure, but I call them knowledge and ignorance.

-HH

Wow, that's a pretty good way to look at it. :hmmm:

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 09:38 PM
Agreed 100%. We share some similarities with all life forms, it's just that we match up with monkeys the most. The simple fact that we cannot exist without plantlife is often overlooked. Think about a world without any vegetation, there would not be any oxygen to breathe. We often look down the paths of mamals and at least superficially ignore the plant life.

Everything is God and Goddess and everything the Devil if you want to look at it that way. Both Sun and Moon give life along with water, fire and air.


But here is the capper........we are physically who we are because of our environment. In other words if we were in Space rather than on Earth our legs would be growing out of our necks, our muscles would be almost non-existent and really would be totally different beings physically.

So when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together to just sustain life on this planet, i.e., sun, air, water, gravity, one can hardly say it is a mere freak of nature tht all these things lines up perfectly. Then again though until something else is proven otherswise it is what most will go on.


You should read the 747 gambit on wikipedia. It highlights this fallacy of an argument.

The bottom line is that any odds needed to create what we have now will always be smaller than the odds needed to create the creator/ee.

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 09:41 PM
We're 99% monkey DNA either because of evolution or because someone upstairs didn't want to start from scratch.
LMAO

A valid, and interesting point.

plbrdude
07-26-2008, 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearcat
We're 99% monkey DNA either because of evolution or because someone upstairs didn't want to start from scratch.

or there's the possibility that our creator made the monkeys very similar to us, just to mess with our heads.

plbrdude
07-26-2008, 09:57 PM
oh, and yes i do.

petegz28
07-26-2008, 09:59 PM
You should read the 747 gambit on wikipedia. It highlights this fallacy of an argument.

The bottom line is that any odds needed to create what we have now will always be smaller than the odds needed to create the creator/ee.

I stopped reading it shortly after the begining. I have heard all this before. I am not proposing intelligent design nor evolution exclusively. We are a product of our environment and symbiotic with EVERYTHING in this universe. Without any parts known and unknown of this universe we probably would not exist. Pretty elementary I know but it still begs the question, who or what created this paticular universe?

Dude the Egyptians allegedly built the pyramids but someone could not document among all of their writings on how they did it? To this day we can put a man on the moon and mars for that matter but we cannot figure out how too build or how the pyramids were built when using the same exact materials. So for all we know life was seeded here by aliens as part of a bigger colonization of the universe. Stars live and die like everything else and through the study of stars we know there cannot be life without death. It is a huge leap to state something came from nothing when we base everything on what little physics we think we know about the universe we think we see.

KCChiefsMan
07-26-2008, 10:00 PM
can you really believe in one without the other?

petegz28
07-26-2008, 10:02 PM
can you really believe in one without the other?

Actually yes and no. HA HA.

Jesus I believe told Peter that all who go to hell eventually get out.

Also I truly believe hell was a place invented to scare people into good behavior, i.e. God-Fearing.

plbrdude
07-26-2008, 10:02 PM
can you really believe in one without the other?

i don't see how myself.

petegz28
07-26-2008, 10:04 PM
i don't see how myself.

Why can't you? I understand God banished Lucifer to the pits of the earth but we also know the earth will one day be destroyed and no trace of our physical existance will be found ever again.

KCChiefsMan
07-26-2008, 10:14 PM
Why can't you? I understand God banished Lucifer to the pits of the earth but we also know the earth will one day be destroyed and no trace of our physical existance will be found ever again.

oh there will be a trace

plbrdude
07-26-2008, 10:14 PM
Why can't you? I understand God banished Lucifer to the pits of the earth but we also know the earth will one day be destroyed and no trace of our physical existance will be found ever again.

so let's move past hell then, because we know that the Bible does say death and hell will give up the dead in them. and whoevers' name is not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Groves
07-26-2008, 10:14 PM
If going to heaven depends on a bright and polished spic-span life, who of us can go? Not me, certainly.

I can see where God wouldn't want anything less than great people up there, though.

It's like I need to have the perfect life of another applied to me to make it.

It's my only chance, and that's what I'm counting on.

petegz28
07-26-2008, 10:16 PM
oh there will be a trace

doubtful....we may be a burt rock floating around a dwarf start that was once our sun. But that's it.

petegz28
07-26-2008, 10:20 PM
so let's move past hell then, because we know that the Bible does say death and hell will give up the dead in them. and whoevers' name is not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

More God-fearing mumbo-jumbo. To be cliche I am more spiritual than religous as they say. But the Bible is a prime example of mans desire for power that the tellings and teachings of God. For Christ's sake (no pun intended) a bunch of men sat around a table and decided what should be in the Bible and what should not. That in and of itself is complete and total evidence that the Bible was written by man through man for man. Power, dominance and all that jazz go back to the very beginnings of time and continue on to this day. Unfortunately I believe the Bible in modern times has been so distored and manipulated and misinterpreted and used to control the masses that it is far from the word of God. In my opine I feel that way that is.

plbrdude
07-26-2008, 10:26 PM
my opinion differs

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 10:27 PM
can you really believe in one without the other?

Certainly. The Jewish concept of sheol, to my understanding, is nothing more than a deep sense of shame, or a state of non-life.

Some Jewish mystics speak of Gehenna, which does not fit the traditional definition of "hell" either, but is somewhat akin to the notion of a "Limbo" or "Purgatory".

petegz28
07-26-2008, 10:28 PM
my opinion differs

Everyone is free to believe what they wish. Or shouldbe anyway. No one knows the right anwer for sure. No one. It is the riddle of life. Mind you God-loving, Jesus following Christians also committed things like the Crusades and burning people at the stake for things like witchcraft. Rather ironic. Muslims are some of the most evil and barbaric people in the world and yet they feel they are right in the eyes of God.

Seems to me the true essence of what we are supposed to believe of God has been ****ed up by man time and time again with their Bibles, and Tora's and Qurans, and wars, and corruption among the alleged "holy people", priests molesting, ministers embezzling, Imams preaching hate and destruction.......all done in the name of or done by people of "God".


Somehow I don't think God would approve of that if you believe in that type of a God.

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 10:32 PM
It'll be interesting to see if tonight's discussion will be as thoughtful and entertaining as last night's.

You know how religion threads usually go... Kinda like politics.

petegz28
07-26-2008, 10:37 PM
It'll be interesting to see if tonight's discussion will be as thoughtful and entertaining as last night's.

You know how religion threads usually go... Kinda like politics.

People are amazing that way.

I always say if you want to see God stick your head out of your back door and look at the trees, and grass and plants and everything that is alive around you.

Princely robes and incese and communions and prayers and all that do not put you closer to God. Generally speaking they are very selfish acts save prayers for others.

Adept Havelock
07-26-2008, 10:39 PM
It'll be interesting to see if tonight's discussion will be as thoughtful and entertaining as last night's.

You know how religion threads usually go... Kinda like politics.

I'll have to check back on it in the morning.

I'm afraid this finite talking primate is pretty wiped out and headed for his nest. :)

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 10:41 PM
People are amazing that way.

I always say if you want to see God stick your head out of your back door and look at the trees, and grass and plants and everything that is alive around you.

Princely robes and incese and communions and prayers and all that do not put you closer to God. Generally speaking they are very selfish acts save prayers for others.Sounds about right to me...

SithCeNtZ
07-26-2008, 10:47 PM
I can believe in heaven, but hell makes no sense to me. Therefore I just can't bring myself to believe in either.

HolyHandgernade
07-26-2008, 10:51 PM
It really is f***ed up on both sides of the fence. Either something came from nothing, which then exploded, or a creator came from nothing and made the whole freakin' universe. We're 99% monkey DNA either because of evolution or because someone upstairs didn't want to start from scratch.

I think we can get into a trap thinking in either/or alternatives. Why can't matter and consciousness arise together, evolving together, collapsing together, reforming together? Can there be perceived beginnings and endings
within infinity?

As for the monkey thing, I think of it this way. If evolution builds towards complexity, perhaps consciousness requires a certain level of complex matter before consciousness becomes the side of the coin that gains the lion's share of the attention. In other words, once an organism has evolved to a point that it can support complex consciousness, perhaps further evolution of the matter that supports it is unnecessary. Kind of like an electrical outlet, it can power a light bulb or it can power a computer, but the outlet itself doesn't really require any more evolution to support these different appliances, its the evolution of the appliances that is now important.

Likewise, the human brain may have the sufficient material makeup to "host" very complex forms of consciousness, and so evolution is occurring right before our eyes, its focus simply isn't biologically driven any longer.

Despite the implications of a monkey having 95-99% of the same DNA as a human, it would seem quite obvious that the difference between us is not in our genetic code, otherwise monkeys would exhibit more complexity in consciousness or humans just wouldn't be as complex as many of them are.

-HH

Bearcat
07-26-2008, 11:06 PM
For Christ's sake (no pun intended) a bunch of men sat around a table and decided what should be in the Bible and what should not. That in and of itself is complete and total evidence that the Bible was written by man through man for man.
...
Unfortunately I believe the Bible in modern times has been so distored and manipulated and misinterpreted and used to control the masses that it is far from the word of God. In my opine I feel that way that is.

One of my professors in college wrote a book "The Dark Side of the Good Book"... it doesn't pick apart the Bible for science's sake, or just rip religion... it asks basic questions like 'why are there 4 different interpretations and 4 different sequence of events from 4 different disciples in the New Testament?'. So, along with all of the modern interpretations and crap like "a God-day is actually thousands of years", the Bible lends itself to crap like "the Old Testament is just fable.. well, except for the creation of the Earth, that really happened... and uh, the Ten Commandments are cool, but you can ignore the stoning part". It's almost a George Carlin outlook on religion.

Anyway, if there is a God/higher being, I seriously doubt he had anything to do with the Bible (or any other scripture on Earth for that matter). If so, he should apply at Warpaint.


How's that, KcMizzou? :evil:

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 11:09 PM
Yes, evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive.

Out of curiosity, does anyone share my opinion/theory that Islam is going through the same stage that Christianity did back in the day?

I contend that the violence and intolerance we're seeing now is the same as the Christian reign of violence. In fact, since Islam came about after Christianity, it makes sense that the cycle would appear later.

Thoughts?

DaneMcCloud
07-26-2008, 11:13 PM
No heaven. No hell. No God, per se.

"God" is the Universe. We were created by the universe. All creatures on planet Earth share more than 90% of the same DNA. Those same elemental particles exist in the vacuum of space and many of them exist in one form or another in our solar system.

We are all a product of this ever expanding universe. I don't think the universe created a "good" or "bad" place for us to reside when we "die".

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 11:15 PM
No heaven. No hell. No God, per se.

"God" is the Universe. We were created by the universe. All creatures on planet Earth share more than 90% of the same DNA. Those same elemental particles exist in the vacuum of space and many of them exist in one form or another in our solar system.

We are all a product of this ever expanding universe. I don't think the universe created a "good" or "bad" place for us to reside when we "die".

Dane and I agree. :eek:o:-)

DaneMcCloud
07-26-2008, 11:15 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone share my opinion/theory that Islam is going through the same stage that Christianity did back in the day?

I do not.

The Muslims and Christians have been at war for the Holy Land (i.e, the Crusades) for more than 1,500 years.

This is certainly nothing new.

DaneMcCloud
07-26-2008, 11:15 PM
Dane and I agree. :eek:o:-)

Hertz donut?

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 11:16 PM
I do not.

The Muslims and Christians have been at war for the Holy Land (i.e, the Crusades) for more than 1,500 years.

This is certainly nothing new.

Well, yes, I know. But it's interesting that the violence cycle seems to mirror Christianity.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 11:20 PM
Better question: Is hell irrelevant?

You have heaven to reward. And if you don't get the reward, you don't get in.

Why do we need a place where people are eternally punished?

Bearcat
07-26-2008, 11:26 PM
I think we can get into a trap thinking in either/or alternatives.

I agree, and that's why I think it's absurd when people say one or the other is the only answer. For all we know, someone created basic life, in whatever form that could be... it evolved into the dinosaur, the dinosaurs died, and whatever was leftover evolved into what we see now. No one will ever know if it was a big bang, God, a combination of those two, none of those things, etc.




Despite the implications of a monkey having 95-99% of the same DNA as a human, it would seem quite obvious that the difference between us is not in our genetic code, otherwise monkeys would exhibit more complexity in consciousness or humans just wouldn't be as complex as many of them are.

Interesting thought, but I'm not sure I completely agree. At one point in time humans were just another group trying to survive, with little communication or reasoning or problem solving skills. Maybe that 1 percent was all we needed.

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 11:30 PM
I agree, and that's why I think it's absurd when people say one or the other is the only answer. For all we know, someone created basic life, in whatever form that could be... it evolved into the dinosaur, the dinosaurs died, and whatever was leftover evolved into what we see now. No one will ever know if it was a big bang, God, a combination of those two, none of those things, etc.

And that's not necessarily true.

In an aside, the thing that gets me is when institutions claim to know. That is, religion claims to know for a fact. 100%. No doubts. Science, on the other hand, is very ready to concede it doesn't know and the best guess it has right now is the Big Bang. It is in no way a certainty, even though the PR for religious groups would have evolution and the big bang linked, which is, itself, a fallacy.


Interesting thought, but I'm not sure I completely agree. At one point in time humans were just another group trying to survive, with little communication or reasoning or problem solving skills. Maybe that 1 percent was all we needed.


I have to agree with you here.

SithCeNtZ
07-26-2008, 11:32 PM
Better question: Is hell irrelevant?

You have heaven to reward. And if you don't get the reward, you don't get in.

Why do we need a place where people are eternally punished?

Because without hell there is no big difference between heaven and "not getting in"?

PastorMikH's Hoe
07-26-2008, 11:32 PM
PastorMikH is going to hell.

blueballs
07-26-2008, 11:34 PM
but his tomatoes will be weed free
bitch

irishjayhawk
07-26-2008, 11:35 PM
Because without hell there is no big difference between heaven and "not getting in"?

Well, that's basically my answer except I play the "fear card". It was simply designed to scare primitive people.

JuicesFlowing
07-26-2008, 11:54 PM
I can believe in heaven, but hell makes no sense to me. Therefore I just can't bring myself to believe in either.

It seems to me that a lot of people believe in God, but not the Devil. For instance, they blame God for bad things that happen. I don't believe God makes bad things happen. But at the same time, it's hard for me to visualize an evil force out there, i guess I'd just rather be in denial and not think about an evil entity opposing our souls ...

Mr. Kotter
07-27-2008, 12:13 AM
Better question: Is hell irrelevant?

You have heaven to reward. And if you don't get the reward, you don't get in.

Why do we need a place where people are eternally punished?

Hell isn't "irrelevant."

Hell is simply "over-looked"

Eternal "punishment"??? My goodmess. it seems to get re-assessed during times.....is the best "deal"..... :shrug:

irishjayhawk
07-27-2008, 12:16 AM
Hell isn'r "irrelevant."

Hell is simply "over-looked"

Eternal "punishment"??? My goodmess. it seems to ge re-assessed.....is the best "deal"..... :shrug:

Hell is overlooked?

How so?

Unless you are playing for fear, it seems irrelevant. Either you get into Heaven to join the "good" club, or you do not.

HolyHandgernade
07-27-2008, 12:19 AM
Interesting thought, but I'm not sure I completely agree. At one point in time humans were just another group trying to survive, with little communication or reasoning or problem solving skills. Maybe that 1 percent was all we needed.

That would be a powerful 1%! Here are some quandaries for the monkey (chimp) comparison:

Four nucleotides write the entire human code (A, C, G, T), so, a completely random assortment would report us sharing 25 percent of our DNA with any known life form, whether it has a brain or not! We share 40% the same DNA as most fish, but few would say fish are 40% human (or that humans are 250% fish)!

Behaviorists tend to focus on common behaviors between chimps and humans, but recent studies (Robert Sussman of Wash. Univ.; Paul Graber of Ill. Univ.) pointed out that apes aren't that social. Gorillas only spending about 3% of their time in social activites; Chimps only 25%. So, trying to find primitive socialization in humans by studying chimps may not be the best model for human brain development amongst highly social species.

Chimps and humans don't share, in general, close emotional bonds. Dogs exhibit more emotional bonding with humans than apes do. Despite the closer facial resmblences of humans to apes, dogs were much better a detecting human clues of pointing and facial expressions to guess what dish food was under with chimps barely (after much work) able to do better than chance would indicate.

Most apes and chimps lack the neural cokmplexity for anything approaching language and it is therefore not an emphasis in communication among apes. Coordination seen for hunts is not any more complex than what has been observed in African wild dogs on a hunt, indicating that the positioning, surrounding, and task of each member of the hunt is communicated in ways that are mostly instinctual with little verbal cues.

So, when we talk about things of intellectual and even spiritual natures, perhaps the material similarities isn't where we should be turning our attention to. That's quite a leap for 1% to make.

-HH

irishjayhawk
07-27-2008, 12:21 AM
That would be a powerful 1%! Here are some quandaries for the monkey (chimp) comparison:

Four nucleotides write the entire human code (A, C, G, T), so, a completely random assortment would report us sharing 25 percent of our DNA with any known life form, whether it has a brain or not! We share 40% the same DNA as most fish, but few would say fish are 40% human (or that humans are 250% fish)!

Behaviorists tend to focus on common behaviors between chimps and humans, but recent studies (Robert Sussman of Wash. Univ.; Paul Graber of Ill. Univ.) pointed out that apes aren't that social. Gorillas only spending about 3% of their time in social activites; Chimps only 25%. So, trying to find primitive socialization in humans by studying chimps may not be the best model for human brain development amongst highly social species.

Chimps and humans don't share, in general, close emotional bonds. Dogs exhibit more emotional bonding with humans than apes do. Despite the closer facial resmblences of humans to apes, dogs were much better a detecting human clues of pointing and facial expressions to guess what dish food was under with chimps barely (after much work) able to do better than chance would indicate.

Most apes and chimps lack the neural cokmplexity for anything approaching language and it is therefore not an emphasis in communication among apes. Coordination seen for hunts is not any more complex than what has been observed in African wild dogs on a hunt, indicating that the positioning, surrounding, and task of each member of the hunt is communicated in ways that are mostly instinctual with little verbal cues.

So, when we talk about things of intellectual and even spiritual natures, perhaps the material similarities isn't where we should be turning our attention to. That's quite a leap for 1% to make.

-HH

It's late and I can't address all of it but the bolded part seems weak.

Dogs benefitted from our domestication of them. Chimps have not. I would assume that after years and years of domestication they've learned to pick up on cues from us. Chimps, having not been in the same light, haven't.

Am I missing your point?


EDIT: Also, isn't it significant that the majority of our DNA is junk DNA.

HolyHandgernade
07-27-2008, 12:27 AM
It's late and I can't address all of it but the bolded part seems weak.

Dogs benefitted from our domestication of them. Chimps have not. I would assume that after years and years of domestication they've learned to pick up on cues from us. Chimps, having not been in the same light, haven't.

Am I missing your point?

Well, we have taken extensive studies with chimps, attempting to teach them sign language and all sorts of things, but I suppose the basic premise would be that the chimp's brain is more complex than the dog's, so if we are arguing a material basis for "consciousness" and its complexity, do we see a more complex brain develop in domestic dogs as opposed to wild dogs, assuming visual cues is an advance in complex thinking.

-HH

HolyHandgernade
07-27-2008, 12:36 AM
It seems to me that a lot of people believe in God, but not the Devil. For instance, they blame God for bad things that happen. I don't believe God makes bad things happen. But at the same time, it's hard for me to visualize an evil force out there, i guess I'd just rather be in denial and not think about an evil entity opposing our souls ...

That's why I prefer knowledge and ignorance. People assume there must be an opposite for things as opposed to an absence of something. For example, many say you can't have a god without a devil, which is a product of personalized dualistic thinking. But, if you ask if light is the opposite of dark, a more informed answer will tell you darkness is the absence of light. So there is no real opposite of the light, just a proximity to it. So, what if "evil" is simply a proximity to "the good". The closer we are to the light, the more knowledge we have because things are esy and clear to see. But, as we move our proximity from the light, images become hazier until they cannot be detected at all, leaving us in ignorance of our surroundings leading to fear.

If we think of ignorance as darkness and knowledge as light, then our pursuit should be as close to the light as possible, increasing our confidence in what we "know" thereby decreasing our fear in what we are unsure of or cannot know. By de-personalizing both god and the devil, into knowledge and ignorance, it now is incumbent of us to try and know, as oppose to only hope, to the nature of our being.

-HH

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 12:54 AM
So back to the very question, belief in Heaven or Hell. We can easily visualize the cartoonish image of Hell as a place of dark caves and flames. Yet we can't really visualize Heaven so much, can we? The walking-on-white-clouds vision isn't what I'd want to think of as Heaven ... interesting that Hell has this specific mental image, if you will ... so for me, God is more understandable than Satan, yet Hell is more imaginable than Heaven.

petegz28
07-27-2008, 07:34 AM
Yes, evolution and creation are not mutually exclusive.

Out of curiosity, does anyone share my opinion/theory that Islam is going through the same stage that Christianity did back in the day?

I contend that the violence and intolerance we're seeing now is the same as the Christian reign of violence. In fact, since Islam came about after Christianity, it makes sense that the cycle would appear later.

Thoughts?

I would agree about Islam.

petegz28
07-27-2008, 07:36 AM
I do not.

The Muslims and Christians have been at war for the Holy Land (i.e, the Crusades) for more than 1,500 years.

This is certainly nothing new.

Yeh but Christians quit killing people in the name of God.

petegz28
07-27-2008, 07:40 AM
If you ever want proof that we don't know shit then look at any of the pyramids, egyptian or myan doesn't matter. Stonehenge is another one. These things were built in ways we still cannot understand. Some scholar can sit there and explain to me everything about their culture except how they built some of the biggest and most complex objects on this planet and we cannot figure out how they did it or exactly why?

I call shenanigans on it....SHENANIGANS!!!!!

It would not shock me at all of life were seeded here by other alien cultures that are cultivating life throughout the universe. The Bible even states technology was taught to man. Ok, by who? Chariots of fire in the sky? Sounds like Moses was talking to ET rather than a burning bush. And scientifically that is more believable as unbelieveable as it is.

petegz28
07-27-2008, 07:43 AM
It is a proven fact that all things you see are driectly related to our immedite environment. Everything on Earth is made to live on Earth. That is a big boon for the evolution crowd.

Astronauts will be the first to tell you how much your body changes once you get into 0 gravity. That proves we are a product of our environment but yet the building blocks of life did not start with nor come from the earth. So chew on that.

Bill Parcells
07-27-2008, 07:51 AM
What has happened to redrum?

http://theprudentindian.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/egg-on-face1.jpg

Programmer
07-27-2008, 08:07 AM
If you believe in one logically you believe in both.

If you read the bible and believe the question is answered.

If you are like a percentage of the people here you don't have the basis to believe in either.

I believe in the premise and promise of the Bible.

Programmer
07-27-2008, 08:10 AM
Hell is overlooked?

How so?

Unless you are playing for fear, it seems irrelevant. Either you get into Heaven to join the "good" club, or you do not.

Dude, it's not a club. It's a belief and faith.

You can join any club you want and it will not make you right with God.

Oops! I forgot you don't have the ability to believe.

Wear shorts to your own funeral, you will need to be cool as possible.

petegz28
07-27-2008, 08:21 AM
Dude, it's not a club. It's a belief and faith.

You can join any club you want and it will not make you right with God.

Oops! I forgot you don't have the ability to believe.

Wear shorts to your own funeral, you will need to be cool as possible.

That makes 0 sense. A specific religeon is nothing more than a club or cult or what have you. It just has a different label on it so it can be differentiated and therefore accepted by the majority.

So in that sense just because you are a Christian or whathaveyou does not put you closer to God.

Going to church 1 hour a week, reciting standard prayers, eating a wafer and sucking down wine amongst priests in robes and surrounded my incnese and candles does not put you closer to God. In my opine.

tiptap
07-27-2008, 08:38 AM
Those who point to the Bible as a source for Heaven and Hell, have fundamentalist reasons to place Hell within the earth. It is conceived as a pit. Heaven is literally another name for sky. So Yahweh is up there. Taking the Bible literally points to actual locations just like a literal reading of other events have locations.

Yet when we physically look for heaven we have troubles. (Hell sort of works since vulcanism of the earth sort of matches up. Not surprisingly since we have more direct encounters with volcanoes.) Heaven has receded in that as we look across space we fail to see evidence that can be considered a mansion or location.

As such the thoughts about heaven and hell then split between those who see those places as spiritual locations that are outside or overaching to our physical existence, and those who see those words as abstractions and therefore derived (and subject to) our physical existence.

BigMeatballDave
07-27-2008, 08:51 AM
Creation, evolution, heaven, and hell. ALL based on belief. ALL are theories. NONE can be proven as factual. Where you go when you die, only matters in what you believe. Could the 'Big Bang' theory actually have happened? Sure. Maybe God created the 'Big Bang'. Honestly, I do not know what I believe. I live my life the best way I know how, and hope for the best.

irishjayhawk
07-27-2008, 09:01 AM
Creation, evolution, heaven, and hell. ALL based on belief. ALL are theories. NONE can be proven as factual. Where you go when you die, only matters in what you believe. Could the 'Big Bang' theory actually have happened? Sure. Maybe God created the 'Big Bang'. Honestly, I do not know what I believe. I live my life the best way I know how, and hope for the best.

Actually, that's not quite true. Evolution can be proven.

BigMeatballDave
07-27-2008, 09:20 AM
Actually, that's not quite true. Evolution can be proven.No, it cannot. Can you tell me where man came from? Sure, science suggests that we evolved from primates into 'cavemen', etc. NO WAY can this be proven as fact, beyond any doubt. If you can, by all means, show me. I'm a science guy. I love it.

luv
07-27-2008, 09:25 AM
Better question: Is hell irrelevant?

You have heaven to reward. And if you don't get the reward, you don't get in.

Why do we need a place where people are eternally punished?

According to a major belief, Earth was Heaven until sin entered. Due to sin, our bond was broken with God. Hell is punishment for sin. Heaven isn't a reward. It's where you go whenever you are forgiven for sin. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, then we would not even be having this discussion right now.

As for me, I'm not really sure what I believe. I know there has to be a higher power. I hope there are not black and white answers for everything. I like that there is the mystique of not knowing why everything happens. Some would just call that ignorance, but that's just fine with me.

Over-Head
07-27-2008, 09:26 AM
As a JW I was forced to believe that only 144,000 (known as either "the great crowd" or "Remnant") magicly got their buss pass to the great beyond in 1914 and the rtest of us get to sit around as worm food until "Armageddon" when we get resurrected to a 1000 year judgement on paradise earth, where the righteous get to keep living forever in paradise on earth, the wicked go to everlasting death. (Is it any wonder I smoke dope after being force fed that crap for 25 years????)


Now as a Catholic Iím just supposed to act go , go to confession, and have communion once a week in order to get to heaven.
Although with my past "purgatory" is where I figure Iíll end up with this bunch.



Me personally, donít know, and donít really care. When Iím dead Iíll find out.
Heaven- Watching my 18month old son do something that makes me laugh
Hell- The 13 years I spent with my ex-wife.

DaFace
07-27-2008, 09:28 AM
I'd just like to give kudos to everyone for keeping this thread civil. I thought sure I would have to move it to DC at some point.

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 09:35 AM
That would be a powerful 1%! Here are some quandaries for the monkey (chimp) comparison:

Four nucleotides write the entire human code (A, C, G, T), so, a completely random assortment would report us sharing 25 percent of our DNA with any known life form, whether it has a brain or not! We share 40% the same DNA as most fish, but few would say fish are 40% human (or that humans are 250% fish)!

Behaviorists tend to focus on common behaviors between chimps and humans, but recent studies (Robert Sussman of Wash. Univ.; Paul Graber of Ill. Univ.) pointed out that apes aren't that social. Gorillas only spending about 3% of their time in social activites; Chimps only 25%. So, trying to find primitive socialization in humans by studying chimps may not be the best model for human brain development amongst highly social species.

Chimps and humans don't share, in general, close emotional bonds. Dogs exhibit more emotional bonding with humans than apes do. Despite the closer facial resmblences of humans to apes, dogs were much better a detecting human clues of pointing and facial expressions to guess what dish food was under with chimps barely (after much work) able to do better than chance would indicate.

Most apes and chimps lack the neural cokmplexity for anything approaching language and it is therefore not an emphasis in communication among apes. Coordination seen for hunts is not any more complex than what has been observed in African wild dogs on a hunt, indicating that the positioning, surrounding, and task of each member of the hunt is communicated in ways that are mostly instinctual with little verbal cues.

So, when we talk about things of intellectual and even spiritual natures, perhaps the material similarities isn't where we should be turning our attention to. That's quite a leap for 1% to make.

-HH

I've heard about chimps learning basic sign language and then putting words together on their own... I believe there's a book on one of the famous chimps. Obviously that's not much of a rebuttal, but there seems to be some evidence out there regarding communication and more complex brain function. I should really read more about the stuff, and how they try to pin down the chain in evolution and so forth.

Like I said before, even if we didn't come from chimps, I think there was a time when we weren't much different... the last 5000 years is just a small part of our existence.

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 09:41 AM
I heard an interesting theory on NPR one time about "progressive creationism." It explains the dinosaurs extinction. Basically, it's the theory that God created new forms of life as time went on ... it was one of the most interesting theories I have ever heard ...

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 09:42 AM
I'd just like to give kudos to everyone for keeping this thread civil. I thought sure I would have to move it to DC at some point.

It's refreshing to have civil discussions about such a deep topic, I agree. It's a good thread.

luv
07-27-2008, 09:49 AM
If you have to have proof in order to believe in something, then what's the point in faith?

HolyHandgernade
07-27-2008, 09:52 AM
I've heard about chimps learning basic sign language and then putting words together on their own... I believe there's a book on one of the famous chimps. Obviously that's not much of a rebuttal, but there seems to be some evidence out there regarding communication and more complex brain function. I should really read more about the stuff, and how they try to pin down the chain in evolution and so forth.

Like I said before, even if we didn't come from chimps, I think there was a time when we weren't much different... the last 5000 years is just a small part of our existence.

There absolutely were such studies. The only problem is that the chimps only used the sign language to gain their rewards with humans, they never translated it to other chimps, and of course, it never occurs in the wild.

-HH

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 09:53 AM
If we think of ignorance as darkness and knowledge as light, then our pursuit should be as close to the light as possible, increasing our confidence in what we "know" thereby decreasing our fear in what we are unsure of or cannot know. By de-personalizing both god and the devil, into knowledge and ignorance, it now is incumbent of us to try and know, as oppose to only hope, to the nature of our being.

-HH

That's a very good way to think about life in general, regardless of religion. Actually, it's a little strange to associate that with religion, because there's the infamous "don't ask questions in church", which goes against gaining knowledge. Anyway, that's the type of idea I try to get across to my younger siblings.... the whole idea that "knowledge is power" and to question everything.


So back to the very question, belief in Heaven or Hell. We can easily visualize the cartoonish image of Hell as a place of dark caves and flames. Yet we can't really visualize Heaven so much, can we? The walking-on-white-clouds vision isn't what I'd want to think of as Heaven ... interesting that Hell has this specific mental image, if you will ... so for me, God is more understandable than Satan, yet Hell is more imaginable than Heaven.

I don't think it's hard to have a fear in the popular version of Hell.... it's going to be painful and there's no air conditioning. But what about Heaven? What am I going to do there? Well, that's when you are told to imagine your own version of Heaven, because you can do anything... so everyone has their own "personal Heaven". If it was the same for everyone, not everyone would want to go... and what's the point of giving money to the Country Club every Sunday if you don't like to play golf? ;)

BigMeatballDave
07-27-2008, 09:55 AM
If you have to have proof in order to believe in something, then what's the point in faith?Exactly. That is why none of it can be proven. Someone who believes in Creationism as fact, will NEVER believe humans evolved from primates. I'm in the middle. I have little faith. I believe in a higher power. Thats about it.

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 10:05 AM
That's a very good way to think about life in general, regardless of religion. Actually, it's a little strange to associate that with religion, because there's the infamous "don't ask questions in church", which goes against gaining knowledge. Anyway, that's the type of idea I try to get across to my younger siblings.... the whole idea that "knowledge is power" and to question everything.




I don't think it's hard to have a fear in the popular version of Hell.... it's going to be painful and there's no air conditioning. But what about Heaven? What am I going to do there? Well, that's when you are told to imagine your own version of Heaven, because you can do anything... so everyone has their own "personal Heaven". If it was the same for everyone, not everyone would want to go... and what's the point of giving money to the Country Club every Sunday if you don't like to play golf? ;)

That is very well put. I have always thought about the personalized Heaven ... You put my thoughts into words.

luv
07-27-2008, 10:05 AM
That's a very good way to think about life in general, regardless of religion. Actually, it's a little strange to associate that with religion, because there's the infamous "don't ask questions in church", which goes against gaining knowledge. Anyway, that's the type of idea I try to get across to my younger siblings.... the whole idea that "knowledge is power" and to question everything.

Which church is this?

Adept Havelock
07-27-2008, 10:13 AM
If you have to have proof in order to believe in something, then what's the point in faith?

An excellent point. I'm always amused by those (including myself, when I was younger) who don't acknowledge that atheism, or a lack of belief, is also a form of faith. In the absence of proof of the non-existence of a higher power, what else can it be but faith that said higher power does not exist?

It's a matter of faith for both sides of the discussion, though I do get a chuckle out of those that deny it. Even the die-hard rationalist is showing faith in his Scientific Methodology and the correctness of his (or others) observations.

On a related note, Douglas Adams had a wonderfully humorous take on the question of faith vs. proof:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You do exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore, he goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

LMAO

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 10:13 AM
Which church is this?

The institution of Church. I understand what Bearcat means. Or perhaps the institution of religion. I have never been to any service anywhere where open discussion and free-thinking is involved; you are taught beliefs and there is no questioning them ... what church has open debates and discussions, questions?

Dave Lane
07-27-2008, 10:18 AM
not at all. Its rather obvious.

Dave

Dave Lane
07-27-2008, 10:19 AM
If you have to have proof in order to believe in something, then what's the point in faith?

Because you are already an Atheist already.

Dave

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 10:19 AM
If you have to have proof in order to believe in something, then what's the point in faith?

Personally, it's not necessarily about proof, it's about logic and reasoning and I guess wrapping my brain around it. Obviously, just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but being a computer geek means that everything works or breaks for a reason.

While there are obviously decisions people make where you can't take the time to analyze every outcome, or decisions where you choose to ignore the possible negative outcomes, there's a risk/reward factor in all important decisions, and IMHO taking a leap of faith without knowing how far you have to leap isn't a smart decision. I might not always exactly know how something works, but by digging for knowledge and asking questions, I can at least minimize the leap of faith. I went to church for years and have read both sides of the argument, and I was never able to narrow the chasm.



I'd just like to give kudos to everyone for keeping this thread civil. I thought sure I would have to move it to DC at some point.

Thanks for keeping it here... I've probably gone into the DC forum 10 times since it was created, and I'd like to keep it that way. :)

Dave Lane
07-27-2008, 10:23 AM
An excellent point. I'm always amused by those (including myself, when I was younger) who don't acknowledge that atheism, or a lack of belief, is also a form of faith. In the absence of proof of the non-existence of a higher power, what else can it be but faith that said higher power does not exist?

It's a matter of faith for both sides of the discussion, though I do get a chuckle out of those that deny it. Even the die-hard rationalist is showing faith in his Scientific Methodology and the correctness of his (or others) observations.

On a related note, Douglas Adams had a wonderfully humorous take on the question of faith vs. proof:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You do exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore, he goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

LMAO

Very nice AH. My big question of the day is why is god insecure? Why does he require people to worship him and why in just the way that each church prescribes it? And why does he have a different method for each church? I mean if there is just one god why all the different splinter groups?

Dave

Adept Havelock
07-27-2008, 10:23 AM
The institution of Church. I understand what Bearcat means. Or perhaps the institution of religion. I have never been to any service anywhere where open discussion and free-thinking is involved; you are taught beliefs and there is no questioning them ... what church has open debates and discussions, questions?

When I was a teenager and exploring different faiths, I spent quite a bit of time at one where the Rector was very welcoming of questions, especially in "Sunday School". He shared with me a piece of Wisdom I should have held closer to, but now recognize the value of. "Many of these stories are to be taken figuratively, but that doesn't lessen their value. However, for some of your questions all I can say is that is where evidence and faith both come into play. I have found my path to what I believe to be truth, and you must seek your own."

A very wise man, Rev. Trelease was.

Very nice AH. My big question of the day is why is god insecure? Why does he require people to worship him and why in just the way that each church prescribes it? And why does he have a different method for each church? I mean if there is just one god why all the different splinter groups?

Dave

I couldn't tell you, but I don't believe that it is the higher power that is insecure and requires it.

I think it is human beings that do, for any number of reasons. Some nefarious, but many worthy of respect and admiration.

Why all the different splinter groups (including Atheists and non-believers)? As a Rabbi and scholar I respected told me once "There are many roads one can walk to find truth", or put in a religious context "There are many mansions in my Father's House".

Perhaps Dr. Harry Wolper was right when he said "One of these days Science will climb to the top of the Mountain, and find Religion has been sitting there all along".

:shrug:

I don't have the answers and I'm content at this point to believe there are some things I will never have answers for.

SithCeNtZ
07-27-2008, 10:30 AM
I don't think it's hard to have a fear in the popular version of Hell.... it's going to be painful and there's no air conditioning. But what about Heaven? What am I going to do there? Well, that's when you are told to imagine your own version of Heaven, because you can do anything... so everyone has their own "personal Heaven". If it was the same for everyone, not everyone would want to go... and what's the point of giving money to the Country Club every Sunday if you don't like to play golf? ;)

See, I do have a hard time fearing the popular version of hell and visualizing it. So many questions run through my mind about hell that I just don't get it. Of the many questions I have:

1)Who is going to keep me in hell if I wanted to leave?
2)What is keeping the inmates from running the asylum so to speak? Couldn't they just revolt if they didn't want to be there? Furthermore, if satan has some kind of magical powers to keep me there, what are my magical powers? Just how strong would I, or anyone else be?
3)Pain is a physiological response from the body that says something is harming the body and you need to stop it. But if you are already dead, what is the need for pain? If I was eternally being tortured, wouldn't I just get used to the pain since it really doesn't mean anything?
4)What about the people who get pleasure from pain? Wouldn't hell be the greatest thing ever? How do you punish someone who wants to be punished? In theory, you could even train yourself to enjoy pain, and therefore wouldn't suffer.

I just look at these questions and find it hard to conceptualize a hell given these questions have no answers.

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 10:35 AM
See, I do have a hard time fearing the popular version of hell and visualizing it. So many questions run through my mind about hell that I just don't get it. Of the many questions I have:

1)Who is going to keep me in hell if I wanted to leave?
2)What is keeping the inmates from running the asylum so to speak? Couldn't they just revolt if they didn't want to be there? Furthermore, if satan has some kind of magical powers to keep me there, what are my magical powers? Just how strong would I, or anyone else be?
3)Pain is a physiological response from the body that says something is harming the body and you need to stop it. But if you are already dead, what is the need for pain? If I was eternally being tortured, wouldn't I just get used to the pain since it really doesn't mean anything?
4)What about the people who get pleasure from pain? Wouldn't hell be the greatest thing ever? How do you punish someone who wants to be punished? In theory, you could even train yourself to enjoy pain, and therefore wouldn't suffer.

I just look at these questions and find it hard to conceptualize a hell given these questions have no answers.

If it's difficult to escape prison on earth, I'm guessing that escaping Hell is much more difficult. And moreso, are we physical bodies in Hell, or souls? Perhaps once you are "there" you are just ... THERE. Leaving might not be a physical option.

luv
07-27-2008, 10:43 AM
The institution of Church. I understand what Bearcat means. Or perhaps the institution of religion. I have never been to any service anywhere where open discussion and free-thinking is involved; you are taught beliefs and there is no questioning them ... what church has open debates and discussions, questions?

There's the sermon, yes. But we also had Sunday school and Bible studies. People asked lots of questions, and there was a lot of discussion.

luv
07-27-2008, 10:46 AM
Personally, it's not necessarily about proof, it's about logic and reasoning and I guess wrapping my brain around it. Obviously, just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but being a computer geek means that everything works or breaks for a reason.

While there are obviously decisions people make where you can't take the time to analyze every outcome, or decisions where you choose to ignore the possible negative outcomes, there's a risk/reward factor in all important decisions, and IMHO taking a leap of faith without knowing how far you have to leap isn't a smart decision. I might not always exactly know how something works, but by digging for knowledge and asking questions, I can at least minimize the leap of faith. I went to church for years and have read both sides of the argument, and I was never able to narrow the chasm.





Thanks for keeping it here... I've probably gone into the DC forum 10 times since it was created, and I'd like to keep it that way. :)

You take a huge leap of faith whenever you put your trust in someone. Even if you've known them for years, there's a chance they'll let you down.

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 10:47 AM
Which church is this?

The institution of Church. I understand what Bearcat means. Or perhaps the institution of religion. I have never been to any service anywhere where open discussion and free-thinking is involved; you are taught beliefs and there is no questioning them ... what church has open debates and discussions, questions?

That's a good way to put it... the history of the church and religion is all about faith and not asking questions. You are taught lessons directly from the Bible, while ignoring other sections because it's not what the church believes. You're taught the birth of Jesus, but you aren't supposed to ask why there are 4 different interpretations and 4 different sequence of events from 4 different disciples. I think Catholicism is the infamous "don't ask questions" religion. You aren't taught to read the Bible and dig and ask questions, you're taught to read the 'nice' parts of the Bible that are in line with the church's beliefs.

When I went to church it was a mix of "don't ask questions"/"it is what it is" and a customizable religion. All of a sudden a day in the Bible "could mean thousands of years", and you had groups that openly acknowledge that the Old Testament is fable, even though they still believed in parts of it. It's like they were trying to answer to science or at least trying to convince those who didn't want to take such a huge leap of faith, which didn't make any sense to me. If you don't know something, that's fine, but don't rationalize questions just so I'll believe. And if you're rationalizing what's in the Bible, shouldn't you maybe question your own beliefs? It's either 'what it is' or it's not.... you're either leaping or you aren't, right? [/rant]

Like I said before, my brain is wired for logic and "there's a reason for everything"... and that makes me left or right brained, I don't remember. Those who are more creative and imaginative can take that leap without thinking twice about it, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm reading Blink right now, and it's all about first impressions and quick decisions, which has given me more respect for those who can take that leap without spending time gathering all the facts and going through all the outcomes.

luv
07-27-2008, 10:48 AM
If it's difficult to escape prison on earth, I'm guessing that escaping Hell is much more difficult. And moreso, are we physical bodies in Hell, or souls? Perhaps once you are "there" you are just ... THERE. Leaving might not be a physical option.

What is the scientific definition of a soul?

HolyHandgernade
07-27-2008, 10:49 AM
Here are my thoughts on proof, or more appropriately, evidence. If we take the scientific method in a broad sense, it can be used for more than material confirmation. Its only when materialism is the only assumed reality, that we run into problems. This is from Ken Wilber about the broad application of the scientific method and its common three strands, and how one can use them in either empirical, intellectual, or spiritual research:

1. A practical injunction or exemplar. If you want to know whether it is raining or not, you must go to the window and look. The point is that "facts" are not lying around waiting for all and sundry to see. If you want to know this, you must do this--an experiment, an injunction, a pragmatic series of engagements, a social practice: these lie behind most forms of good science. This is actually the meaning of Kuhn's notion of "paradigm," which does not mean a super-theory but an exemplar or actual practice.

2. An apprehension, illumination, or experience. Once you perform the experiment or follow the injunction--once you pragmatically engage the world--then you will be introduced to a series of experiences or apprehensions that are brought forth by the injunction. These experiences are technically known as data. As William James pointed out, the real meaning of "datum" is immediate experience. [8] Thus, you can have physical experiences (or physical data), mental experiences (or mental data), and spiritual experiences (or spiritual data). All good science--whether narrow or broad--is anchored to some degree in data, or experiential evidence.

3. Communal checking (either rejection or confirmation). Once we engage the paradigm (or social practice) and bring forth a series of experiences and evidence (or data), it helps if we can check these experiences with others who have also completed the injunction and seen the evidence. A community of peers--or those who have adequately completed the first two strands (injunction and data)--is perhaps the best check possible, and all good science tends to turn to a community of the adequate for confirmation or rejection. This is where the principle of falsifiability is very useful. Although the fallibility criterion cannot stand on its own, as Sir Karl Popper believed, it is often an important ingredient in good science. The idea is simply that bad data can be rejected by a community of the adequate. If there is no way that your belief system can be challenged, then there is no way to dislodge it at all, even if it is patently incorrect--and therefore whatever else you have, your beliefs are not very scientific (they are instead what is called "dogma," or a truth-claim backed only by authoritative fiat). Of course, there are many realities that are not open to the fallibility test--for example, you cannot reject, or even doubt, your own consciousness, as Descartes knew. But this third criteria simply says that good science constantly attempts to confirm (or reject) its knowledge claims, and the fallibility criterion is often used as one part of this third strand of good science.

The following will give a general outline to illustrate the method to each category:

Empirical:

"I want to find a cure for cancer."

1. Instrumental Injunction: (If I want to know this I must do this) I must learn how to strain cells, study biology, and use an electron microscope.

2. Intuitive Apprehension: (data disclosed) When I strain the cells, apply my biological learning, and peer through my microscope, what do I see?

3. Communal Confirmation or Rejection: (falsification process) When I have collected and compiled my data, how will my peers who have adequately completed the first two steps comment? I will not ask people who are not adequately familiar with this process because they are not knowledgeable in this category.

Intellectual:

"I want to understand the meaning of 'Hamlet'."

1. Instrumental Injunction: (If I want to know this I must do this) I have to learn how to read, understand story structure, comprehend symbolism, have a background of an historical period, be familiar with human psychological drama.

2. Intuitive Apprehension: (data disclosed) When I have learned how to read and comprehend literary structure, understand the time period, and have personally experienced love, tragedy, and conflict in my own interactions, what do I understand when I read 'Hamlet'?

3. Communal Confirmation or Rejection: (falsification process) After I have read 'Hamlet', what will my (English Professor; book club) make of my interpretation? I will not ask someone who has not adequately completed the first two steps to critique my interpretation.

Contemplative:

"I want to understand the meaning of the Tao."

1. Instrumental Injunction: (If I want to know this I must do this) I have to learn how to meditate.

2. Intuitive Apprehension: (data disclosed) When I meditate what do I experience?

3. Communal Confirmation or Rejection: (falsification process) When I recall what I experience I want to ask someone who has completed the first two steps what the meaning of my insights reveal.

Each category has its particular data even if intellectual data is different from empirical data and contemplative data is different from the other two. Each category is capable of a bad interpretation. Misreading of cellular structure can lead to a rejection on an empirical scale.

Claiming 'Hamlet' is a comedy is a bad interpretation even if one cannot prove such empirically. The only thing we can determine empirically about 'Hamlet' is how much the manuscript weighs, how many words it contains, how much ink was used, etc. But we can absolutely give a "correct" value judgment that 'Hamlet' is not a comedy.

Conversely, we are not going to prove our cancer research because "it feels right". Empirical research is done with a cold monological eye. Intellectual research is done with an engaging dialogical eye.

So when we study the nature of the Tao, we do not ask for our data to be empirical because it had no physicality. And we do not ask to fully describe it intellectually, because it is not an intellectual concept. It is a spiritual reality only known by direct contemplative experience. This is why attempts to describe such are always paradoxical (The sound of one hand clapping) and why any claim someone can physically describe such always receives a healthy degree of skepticism from empirically minded individuals.

When one understands this distinction then they can easily determine what category one is dealing with. If you can measure it or quantify it, it is physics. If you can give value and meaning to it, it is intellectual. If you can intuitively know it without attachment and devoid of belief or opinion, it is contemplative.

Of course the tricky part is that although they are three different categories they do have correlations. An emotion associated with the psyche will have physical correlations with the body; a contemplative knowing may calm the mind and reduce blood pressure. But reduced blood pressure isn't necessarily a spiritual event, nor does a calm mind also relate an individual who is one with the Tao. A "heavy heart' may just as well have a completely physical symptom devoid of an emotional correlate.

luv
07-27-2008, 10:52 AM
Like I said before, my brain is wired for logic and "there's a reason for everything"... and that makes me left or right brained, I don't remember. Those who are more creative and imaginative can take that leap without thinking twice about it, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm reading Blink right now, and it's all about first impressions and quick decisions, which has given me more respect for those who can take that leap without spending time gathering all the facts and going through all the outcomes.

I'm a firm believer in that everything happens for a reason. However, I don't always know the reason. Who knows if I'll ever find out? I just have faith, or trust, that I will be a better person for having gone through whatever, good or bad.

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 10:53 AM
Very nice AH. My big question of the day is why is god insecure? Why does he require people to worship him and why in just the way that each church prescribes it? And why does he have a different method for each church? I mean if there is just one god why all the different splinter groups?

Dave

Perhaps you should join the Spaghedeity....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_The_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

SithCeNtZ
07-27-2008, 11:08 AM
What is the scientific definition of a soul?

That's exactly my point on the concept of hell. No matter what definition you make for a soul, heaven makes sense. If we are some abstract entity, or a person like in the form of an angel, heaven still "works" and makes reasonable sense. But hell always has some unanswerable questions depending on what definition you chose.

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 11:12 AM
You take a huge leap of faith whenever you put your trust in someone. Even if you've known them for years, there's a chance they'll let you down.

That probably goes along with the creative/imaginative person... the 'people-person'. If you're the type of person that can open up to anyone, you take that leap without thinking twice about it. While I generally get along with everyone I meet and have no problems meeting new people, I'm more of a 'ask and I'll tell' type of person. I don't open up and tell someone all about myself for the sake of doing so like other people (except in religious threads on football message boards :) ). I'd rather take the time to get to know the other person so I know if it's worth making a larger connection. Again, I guess to make the leap shorter. Of course, that lends itself to 'I wouldn't want to lose you as a friend', but that's a whole other conversation. ;)

I'm a firm believer in that everything happens for a reason. However, I don't always know the reason. Who knows if I'll ever find out? I just have faith, or trust, that I will be a better person for having gone through whatever, good or bad.

Do you believe in a 'master plan'... that we're all here for a reason and God has a plan for all of us? The flip side of that is that everything happens for a reason because God is merely guiding us, not necessarily to a specific end point.

I've definitely had major points in my life where I've wondered... things that have happened over the course of years where I'm left with the thought of "maybe I was supposed to go through that, because now this has happened and I have a much better perspective". We are nothing more than the sum of our experiences, regardless of whether they're planned or it's all just chaos.

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 11:14 AM
What is the scientific definition of a soul?

I don't know. Science can't explain God, so it cannot explain a soul. But I'm guessing it's feeling and conscience, collectively. Of course this brings up another question: if you are a soul in heaven or hell, do you not "see" ... do souls have eyes? Can ghosts see, do ghosts have eyes? Are souls vapors, I don't know. I equate soul with feeling though.

stumppy
07-27-2008, 11:19 AM
What is the scientific definition of a soul?


duh

stumppy
07-27-2008, 11:20 AM
duh

Oops, my bad. I posted soul not "a soul".

Ebolapox
07-27-2008, 11:26 AM
So back to the very question, belief in Heaven or Hell. We can easily visualize the cartoonish image of Hell as a place of dark caves and flames. Yet we can't really visualize Heaven so much, can we? The walking-on-white-clouds vision isn't what I'd want to think of as Heaven ... interesting that Hell has this specific mental image, if you will ... so for me, God is more understandable than Satan, yet Hell is more imaginable than Heaven.

I've been trying to avoid this thread (as it's impossible to do anything but come to a draw in religious debates, even ones as mundane as this one)-- but here's my two cents.

heaven, hell, god, and the devil (and how we visualize them, which is why I picked this thread) seem to me to be a product of archetypes hammered into us by our parents, grandparents, and the collective whole of society's history. what better way to get one's kids to behave than say there's an invisible man in the clouds that will punish you with everlasting flame, pain, and suffering if you don't do what he wants. and he allows his archenemy to do this for all of eternity--but he loves you! he loves you, and if you do exactly what he wants, you'll be able to live in the gigantic mansion in the sky.

it all seems pointless to me. I don't claim for a fact to know what happens after we die. I'm an atheist. I wish that I could believe that the world we live in has an ultimate purpose. I wish I could wrap my mind around the belief that we aren't just all spinning our wheels. but there's too much evidence to the contrary. logic leads me to believe that there's nothing after I die except to become compost fertilizer for a few plants.

it's kind of depressing. and the sad thing is that religion as a whole reminds me of what my grandpa (a minister, as was my father) used to call 'fire insurance.' people believing just because they don't want to burn in the flame everlasting. and there's a lot of people who 'believe' in god because they don't want the flame. the sad thing to me is that (if there is a god, I don't claim to understand its thought process or what it wants out of us) if there IS a god, are these people really the ones he wants to worship him? all out of fear, not out of desire?

I could go on and on. sorry for the novel. (and THIS is the reason I don't reply to subjects on religion anymore. I go on and on)

DeezNutz
07-27-2008, 11:40 AM
Hell can also be defined as "absence from God." In other words, the farther one is from God, the worse the existence. In this sense, hell could ostensibly be a total lack of being.

luv
07-27-2008, 11:52 AM
That probably goes along with the creative/imaginative person... the 'people-person'. If you're the type of person that can open up to anyone, you take that leap without thinking twice about it. While I generally get along with everyone I meet and have no problems meeting new people, I'm more of a 'ask and I'll tell' type of person. I don't open up and tell someone all about myself for the sake of doing so like other people (except in religious threads on football message boards :) ). I'd rather take the time to get to know the other person so I know if it's worth making a larger connection. Again, I guess to make the leap shorter. Of course, that lends itself to 'I wouldn't want to lose you as a friend', but that's a whole other conversation. ;)

How do you ever get to know someone unless one of you opens up? :p



Do you believe in a 'master plan'... that we're all here for a reason and God has a plan for all of us? The flip side of that is that everything happens for a reason because God is merely guiding us, not necessarily to a specific end point.

I've definitely had major points in my life where I've wondered... things that have happened over the course of years where I'm left with the thought of "maybe I was supposed to go through that, because now this has happened and I have a much better perspective". We are nothing more than the sum of our experiences, regardless of whether they're planned or it's all just chaos.

I'm not a big fan of chaos. I'm much too much of a planner. I don't know if there's a "plan" someone has for my life, but I hate to think of myself as having complete control, either. Both scare me.

luv
07-27-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't know. Science can't explain God, so it cannot explain a soul. But I'm guessing it's feeling and conscience, collectively. Of course this brings up another question: if you are a soul in heaven or hell, do you not "see" ... do souls have eyes? Can ghosts see, do ghosts have eyes? Are souls vapors, I don't know. I equate soul with feeling though.

I honestly can't see a person who is logical enough not to consider the existence of God as being able to believe in ghosts. If there is no such thing as heaven and hell, do we really even have souls? What would the point be?

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 12:00 PM
what better way to get one's kids to behave than say there's an invisible man in the clouds that will punish you with everlasting flame, pain, and suffering if you don't do what he wants. and he allows his archenemy to do this for all of eternity--but he loves you! he loves you, and if you do exactly what he wants, you'll be able to live in the gigantic mansion in the sky.



George Carlin's great. :)



I wish I could wrap my mind around the belief that we aren't just all spinning our wheels. but there's too much evidence to the contrary. logic leads me to believe that there's nothing after I die except to become compost fertilizer for a few plants.

it's kind of depressing.


I agree. The concept that we're all so insignificant is hard to handle... especially in a time when everyone gets 15 minutes of fame and today's news always becomes yesterday's trash (except, of course, when it's about an athlete, someone in Hollywood, or a missing white girl). Everyone wants to believe they'll leave a mark, but relatively, hardly anyone does.



and there's a lot of people who 'believe' in god because they don't want the flame. the sad thing to me is that (if there is a god, I don't claim to understand its thought process or what it wants out of us) if there IS a god, are these people really the ones he wants to worship him? all out of fear, not out of desire?


I've had discussions end like that, and it's annoying.... "Well, I don't know one way or another, but I don't want to deny Him and be wrong". I hope there's a Commandment against that.

el borracho
07-27-2008, 12:12 PM
There has to be something after this life. Why not.

There doesn't have to be anything. Nobody knows- life may be the equivalent of a really long episode of Seinfeld, a show about nothing.

Claynus
07-27-2008, 12:14 PM
The afterlife is the adult version of the bogeyman.

luv
07-27-2008, 12:14 PM
There doesn't have to be anything. Nobody knows- life may be the equivalent of a really long episode of Seinfeld, a show about nothing.

That's depressing. It's like saying life is worth nothing.

el borracho
07-27-2008, 12:24 PM
That's depressing. It's like saying life is worth nothing.

You didn't enjoy Seinfeld?

Bearcat
07-27-2008, 12:29 PM
How do you ever get to know someone unless one of you opens up? :p


Sounds like the woman's job to me. o:-)

Just kidding... that's where the 'ask and I'll tell' comes in. Generally speaking, I've found there are people who want to know about you, there are people who want you to know about them, and there are people who want both or neither.

I'm the type of person that wants to know someone else's story and doesn't particularly care about telling my own; so to be clichť, opposites attract, because I'm more comfortable asking the questions and then relating the answers to my own life rather than coming up with random conversation and stories that aren't tied to anything. If it was up to me to provide conversation about myself, I'd just end up talking about work and traveling, because that's basically all I've been doing the last several months. I've gone out with people just like me, which leads to dull conversation... not in all cases, because everyone's different and everyone has a different degree of what they want to know and what they'll tell... but, to say the least, it's hard to explain.



I'm not a big fan of chaos. I'm much too much of a planner. I don't know if there's a "plan" someone has for my life, but I hate to think of myself as having complete control, either. Both scare me.

As far as day-to-day life, I'm not a big fan of chaos, either. I'm the information gatherer, so I like to know where I'm going and what I'm doing before getting started. But, I know results will vary because you can almost never be 100% confident in an outcome. It's a strange mix.... as much as I'd like everything to work the way it's supposed to and know the outcome to everything, if I could be 100% confident in the outcome, life would be boring and I'd be out of a job.

Rausch
07-27-2008, 12:37 PM
it all seems pointless to me. I don't claim for a fact to know what happens after we die. I'm an atheist. I wish that I could believe that the world we live in has an ultimate purpose. I wish I could wrap my mind around the belief that we aren't just all spinning our wheels. but there's too much evidence to the contrary. logic leads me to believe that there's nothing after I die except to become compost fertilizer for a few plants.

it's kind of depressing.

Not really.

I mean, if you've accomplished little or don't have a particularly rewarding life up to this point I guess it could be.

Is it depressing that friends and family took great meaning and comfort from you, in life? Did you impact anyone outside yourself? Did YOU give your life a meaning, a point, a purpose?

God or no God, he can't do that for you...

luv
07-27-2008, 01:00 PM
Not really.

I mean, if you've accomplished little or don't have a particularly rewarding life up to this point I guess it could be.

Is it depressing that friends and family took great meaning and comfort from you, in life? Did you impact anyone outside yourself? Did YOU give your life a meaning, a point, a purpose?

God or no God, he can't do that for you...

Why not? It's gets kind of tiring trying to do it all for yourself. Of course, that's when friends and loved ones come into play.

Claynus
07-27-2008, 01:04 PM
That's depressing. It's like saying life is worth nothing.

Life is what you make of it. The point of life is to ENJOY LIFE.

The afterlife would SUCK. No satellite, no internet, no NFL Sunday Ticket.

**** THAT!

Rausch
07-27-2008, 01:13 PM
Why not? It's gets kind of tiring trying to do it all for yourself. Of course, that's when friends and loved ones come into play.

That's my point. You can believe in God all you want but YOU have to give your life meaning.

CosmicPal
07-27-2008, 01:15 PM
The afterlife would SUCK. No satellite, no internet, no NFL Sunday Ticket.

**** THAT!

How do you know that?

Adept Havelock
07-27-2008, 01:15 PM
Life is what you make of it. The point of life is to ENJOY LIFE.

The afterlife would SUCK. No satellite, no internet, no NFL Sunday Ticket.

**** THAT!

????

If there is an afterlife, I think you couldn't be further off base.

Think of the libraries, and the ability to talk to the long-dead authors themselves.

Or, as I pointed out in another thread, nightclubs with the likes of Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, and Frank Sinatra doing regular appearances?

Discussions with DesCartes, Copernicus, Plato, Aristotle, etc. Watching Newton endlessly tease Nietzsche?

Football games between Lombardi and Halas, watching Walter Payton and Sid Luckman? Seeing Derrick Thomas tackle Jim Thorpe?

The legendary Baseball Games...watching Babe Ruth against Ty Cobb?

If you would be bored with all that, you're hopeless.

That's my point. You can believe in God all you want but YOU have to give your life meaning.

:clap:

CosmicPal
07-27-2008, 01:22 PM
????

If there is an afterlife, I think you couldn't be further off base.

Think of the libraries, and the ability to talk to the long-dead authors themselves.

Or, as I pointed out in another thread, nightclubs with the likes of Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, and Frank Sinatra doing regular appearances?

Discussions with DesCartes, Copernicus, Plato, Aristotle, etc. Watching Newton endlessly tease Nietzsche?

Football games between Lombardi and Halas, watching Walter Payton and Sid Luckman? Seeing Derrick Thomas tackle Jim Thorpe?

The legendary Baseball Games...watching Babe Ruth against Ty Cobb?

If you would be bored with all that, you're hopeless.


Add in the 40 or so virgins and my own private island where the weather is always perfect, and I'll go outside and stand in front of an oncoming Mack truck right now. If that was heaven, I'd be there in a minute.

Adept Havelock
07-27-2008, 01:23 PM
Add in the 40 or so virgins and my own private island where the weather is always perfect, and I'll go outside and stand in front of an oncoming Mack truck right now. If that was heaven, I'd be there in a minute.

LMAO...I don't know that's the case, I'm just saying... :shrug:

I can see your POV, but I'd rather exhaust the possibilities of this life, before considering anything else.

Claynus
07-27-2008, 02:13 PM
????

If there is an afterlife, I think you couldn't be further off base.

Think of the libraries, and the ability to talk to the long-dead authors themselves.

Or, as I pointed out in another thread, nightclubs with the likes of Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, and Frank Sinatra doing regular appearances?

Discussions with DesCartes, Copernicus, Plato, Aristotle, etc. Watching Newton endlessly tease Nietzsche?

Football games between Lombardi and Halas, watching Walter Payton and Sid Luckman? Seeing Derrick Thomas tackle Jim Thorpe?

The legendary Baseball Games...watching Babe Ruth against Ty Cobb?

If you would be bored with all that, you're hopeless.



:clap:

OK, that would be cool. But according to all the religious texts, the afterlife is nothing like that.

picasso
07-27-2008, 02:39 PM
You have to have faith to believe in heaven or hell. And that in itself is a contradiction of words that christians have preached to the masses since the coming of Christ. Because the definitions are totally opposite and one can not achieve the other without it. Faith is not based on truth but on the promise made through Christ so humankind can be justified and saved from eternal damnation in hell. Based on the bible we are all born sinners so you do not have a choice. Belief is to have confidence in the truth, and truth is the actuality that something exists. Then if it exists it must be a fact and a fact is far from faith, thus making belief and faith so far apart from each other you shouldn't use them in the same sentence. The existence of heaven and hell are fictions of faith so that humans are aware of their own moral paths and the doctrine of this is the bible. But to have faith in this doctrine you must also believe in a power higher than yourself and that it's son died for your sins allowing you passage to heaven if you follow his lifes example.
Why people need this is out of fear, self doubt, to feel grounded, to have a sense of belonging that is like your neighbor as you congregate in mass to celebrate something in common. The faith in heaven and hell keeps you on that path and the weekly reminders and teachings of it keeps you safe with the expectation that you will someday see your loved ones again. I understand it but I don't believe it, or that heaven and hell exists.

angelo
07-27-2008, 03:38 PM
I do not believe.

I do not think you show faith by not believing you just do not believe.

There is no god, devil, heaven or hell.

All religions kill people for their gods. (even Christians)

That being said I respect everyones views and love to learn about all religions.
The psychological aspects of religion fascinates me.

I think consciousness develop when we were learn to communicate. We had to learn to interpret facial expressions of others so we had to become more introspective of our own feelings which over millions of years led to deeper thinking and contemplation of existence.

These are thoughts from a uneducated mind.

Ang

Ebolapox
07-27-2008, 03:53 PM
Not really.

I mean, if you've accomplished little or don't have a particularly rewarding life up to this point I guess it could be.

Is it depressing that friends and family took great meaning and comfort from you, in life? Did you impact anyone outside yourself? Did YOU give your life a meaning, a point, a purpose?

God or no God, he can't do that for you...

oh, absolutely. I love my life. wouldn't change it if given a choice. but on the same token, none of us (save a VERY select few) have that great an impact on the world we live in after even as insignificant time period of 1000 years. by the time 1000 years is up, almost all of the genetics that we passed on have been through countless 'crossing over' events, so the chromosomes of even our great great great great grandchildren wouldn't even resemble ours. same with friends and family. the personal impact is gone after the grave, etc. I'm sure there were some memorable ancestors that I have. but I have no evidence of them, no anecdotes, etc. they're gone with the wind so to speak.

Ebolapox
07-27-2008, 03:56 PM
George Carlin's great. :)




I agree. The concept that we're all so insignificant is hard to handle... especially in a time when everyone gets 15 minutes of fame and today's news always becomes yesterday's trash (except, of course, when it's about an athlete, someone in Hollywood, or a missing white girl). Everyone wants to believe they'll leave a mark, but relatively, hardly anyone does.



I've had discussions end like that, and it's annoying.... "Well, I don't know one way or another, but I don't want to deny Him and be wrong". I hope there's a Commandment against that.

heh, I was going to put in a caveat that I borrowed some of that from carlin, but it was far enough away that it only borrowed an idea or two.

I've gotten to the point that I can't even discuss religion with a few of my friends because the 'fire insurance' issue hits too close to home for them. unfortunately, not a lot of people like to think that the only reason they believe is to save their asses.

Programmer
07-27-2008, 04:50 PM
That makes 0 sense. A specific religeon is nothing more than a club or cult or what have you. It just has a different label on it so it can be differentiated and therefore accepted by the majority.

So in that sense just because you are a Christian or whathaveyou does not put you closer to God.

Going to church 1 hour a week, reciting standard prayers, eating a wafer and sucking down wine amongst priests in robes and surrounded my incnese and candles does not put you closer to God. In my opine.

OK, tell me how often I go to church. Tell me how often I read the bible. Tell me how often I pray. Tell me if I have accepted Christ as my savior.

The things you bring up is correct, but you can't judge all of Christianity by what you believe. Your view seems to be exceptionally biased and mostly towards the Catholic Church.

I am closer to God due to my beliefs and my convictions. If you don't feel you are, maybe you should research the subject.

Programmer
07-27-2008, 04:51 PM
Actually, that's not quite true. Evolution can be proven.

So prove it.

Mr. Flopnuts
07-27-2008, 04:53 PM
Is he STILL claiming to not be T to teh C?

CosmicPal
07-27-2008, 05:12 PM
So prove it.

He can't. They wouldn't teach it in school. :D