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View Full Version : Int'l Issues While Obama visits Germany, McCain visits a German Restaurant


Chiefnj2
07-24-2008, 01:30 PM
You can't make this stuff up.

http://thepage.time.com/2008/07/24/mccain-swings-by-german-restaurant-to-target-obama/

As his rival tours Berlin, the presumptive GOP nominee recreates his own German setting to take his opponent to task.

He tells reporters outside a Columbus, Ohio German restaurant he’d love to give a speech in Germany.

“But I’d much prefer to do it as president of the United States rather than as a candidate for president.” Watch video above.


Followed by pointing out he was devoting this week to campaigning across the nation’s heartland.

Direckshun
07-24-2008, 01:35 PM
He also paid to have a commercial aired in three Berlins throughout America.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 01:41 PM
McCain is just a little out of touch. I do not want this Bush part two leading our country.

markk
07-24-2008, 01:52 PM
At least he is campaigning for the approval of Americans rather than Europe.

Redrum_69
07-24-2008, 01:54 PM
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/POLITICS/07/24/obama.speech/t1home.obama.thurs.04.ap.jpg


uh..i'll take "which president nominee will be the next dictator?" for $666.66 Alex....

http://www.cnn.com/

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:01 PM
At least he is campaigning for the approval of Americans rather than Europe.ROFL, Yea, Obama wants the Germans to elect him. That's pure horseshit.

Will the rightwing fanatics ever get a grip on reality or has shit spewing become their actual platform for their campaign?
Pathetic.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:05 PM
ROFL, Yea, Obama wants the Germans to elect him. That's pure horseshit.

Will the rightwing fanatics ever get a grip on reality or has shit spewing become their actual platform for their campaign?
Pathetic.

Honestly, I can understand Barack Hussein going overseas during a presidential campaign, although I can't recall a previous candidate giving a public speech. Meeting heads of state and such, but not a speech to the public.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:09 PM
“It is not going to be a political speech,” said a senior foreign policy adviser, who spoke to reporters on background. “When the president of the United States goes and gives a speech, it is not a political speech or a political rally.”

That answer prompted a reporter to remind the adviser: “But he is not president of the United States.”

“It will not be a speech about campaign issues,” an adviser said. “He’s not going to address campaign issues in terms of other candidates, it is not a speech about American politics, and so it’s not a campaign event. We’re not trying to recruit support from the crowds that are coming. It’s not a campaign event.

That's quite a lot of words to say what the speech is not. I wonder what the speech was all about, then? What was its purpose?

|Zach|
07-24-2008, 02:12 PM
Will the rightwing fanatics ever get a grip on reality or has shit spewing become their actual platform for their campaign?
Pathetic.

Worth quoting.

markk
07-24-2008, 02:13 PM
ROFL, Yea, Obama wants the Germans to elect him. That's pure horseshit.

Will the rightwing fanatics ever get a grip on reality or has shit spewing become their actual platform for their campaign?
Pathetic.

No, he like most liberals experiences self-loathing feelings on behalf of the United States, and sees Western Europe as more enlightened and advanced than we are (because Europe has embraced socialism and we have yet to do so) , worthy of our attempting to ingratiate ourselves to them and placing the approval of others at an extremely high level of importance.

Most people are secure in our national identity, what America is, why it is great, and want us to continue being who and what we are. Liberals go around like Eeyore, feeling sorry for ourselves that they feel we aren't as cosmopolitan as Europe is, and wishing someday we could get contacts and a new wardrobe to be one of the popular kids and go out with the prom king too.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:14 PM
Worth quoting.

Why? What is Barack Hussein doing giving speeches in Germany?

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:18 PM
To have a world prescence, you have to be out in the world. The U.S. works with many nations, so I believe he is doing this to help restore our prescence amongst the world leaders.

InChiefsHell
07-24-2008, 02:18 PM
ROFL, Yea, Obama wants the Germans to elect him. That's pure horseshit.

Will the rightwing fanatics ever get a grip on reality or has shit spewing become their actual platform for their campaign?
Pathetic.

Uh huh. Pathetic. But going overseas acting like you are a President, while swearing that you are not campaigning in order to pander to the cameras...that's not pathetic. Obviously it's not about the Germans electing him you dolt, it's about Barack selling the idea "Look everyone, the Europeans love me to death, you should to! If you don't elect me, it just means that you are all out of touch with the rest of the world...America should want to be like the rest of the world...blah blah blah..."

But that's not pathetic...

InChiefsHell
07-24-2008, 02:19 PM
To have a world prescence, you have to be out in the world. The U.S. works with many nations, so I believe he is doing this to help restore our prescence amongst the world leaders.

Oh...lord...:Lin:

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:20 PM
No, he like most liberals experiences self-loathing feelings on behalf of the United States, and sees Western Europe as more enlightened and advanced than we are (because Europe has embraced socialism and we have yet to do so) , worthy of our attempting to ingratiate ourselves to them and placing the approval of others at an extremely high level of importance.

Most people are secure in our national identity, what America is, why it is great, and want us to continue being who and what we are. Liberals go around like Eeyore, feeling sorry for ourselves that they feel we aren't as cosmopolitan as Europe is, and wishing someday we could get contacts and a new wardrobe to be one of the popular kids and go out with the prom king too. So we should be isolated and not work with other world leaders? That's ****ing moronic.

markk
07-24-2008, 02:20 PM
Oh...lord...:Lin:

prescience eh, so the messiah has gained even more super powers?

markk
07-24-2008, 02:22 PM
So we should be isolated and not work with other world leaders? That's ****ing moronic.

i never said anything about working with others. i would wager john mccain has taken far more trips overseas and spent more time with far more foreign leaders than our neighborhood organizer and 143 day senate veteran has.

i was talking about the chronic low self esteem that libs seem to have and their overpowering need for approval from others, particularly europe, whom they hold us as the socialist ideal they hope to install here.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:22 PM
Folks need to understand something: There is nothing that Barack Hussein could do that would make his followers have pause. He could take a crap on their heads and they would respond, "Look at the texture of that thing!"

markk
07-24-2008, 02:23 PM
Folks need to understand something: There is nothing that Barack Hussein could do that would make his followers have pause. He could take a crap on their heads and they would respond, "Look at the texture of that thing!"

well, we already saw how they erupt in cheers when he blows his nose

Ultra Peanut
07-24-2008, 02:30 PM
Folks need to understand something: There is nothing that Barack Hussein could do that would make his followers have pause. He could take a crap on their heads and they would respond, "Look at the texture of that thing!"And he could shit gold bricks at your feet and you'd still be opposed to him. We get it.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:31 PM
And he could shit gold bricks at your feet and you'd still be opposed to him. We get it.

Thanks for the confirmation.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Folks need to understand something: There is nothing that Barack Hussein could do that would make his followers have pause. He could take a crap on their heads and they would respond, "Look at the texture of that thing!"

The vast majority of the posters in this forum have their minds made up already. We aren't here to convince each other to change parties.

Its really a shameful product of the party system. We ally ourselves to these identities and stick by it vehemently and vilify each other. We make decisions to support policies based on the letter D or R next to a name, rather than the merit of the policy. But that's the nature of our system, and I don't think anyone out there should be surprised that Obama fans haven't switched sides over the attempts of some in this forum.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Also Donger, I think you overestimate the quality of the attacks on Obama when you act surprised that his supporters aren't switching against him.

vailpass
07-24-2008, 02:36 PM
The lady will have the knockwurst. And a coke.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Uh huh. Pathetic. But going overseas acting like you are a President, while swearing that you are not campaigning in order to pander to the cameras...that's not pathetic. Obviously it's not about the Germans electing him you dolt, it's about Barack selling the idea "Look everyone, the Europeans love me to death, you should to! If you don't elect me, it just means that you are all out of touch with the rest of the world...America should want to be like the rest of the world...blah blah blah..."

But that's not pathetic...
No, it's about working with other nations, not some fabricated euro envy-that's really reaching there for something that isn't there. What the **** would that do for his cause? Absolutely nothing. However reaching out to other nations, shows we are serious about becoming a global leader again.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Also Donger, I think you overestimate the quality of the attacks on Obama when you act surprised that no one is switching against him.

I'm not surprised at all.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:40 PM
The lady will have the knockwurst. And a coke.The cable guy??

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:40 PM
The cable guy??

Fast Times at Ridgemont High

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:41 PM
i never said anything about working with others. i would wager john mccain has taken far more trips overseas and spent more time with far more foreign leaders than our neighborhood organizer and 143 day senate veteran has.

i was talking about the chronic low self esteem that libs seem to have and their overpowering need for approval from others, particularly europe, whom they hold us as the socialist ideal they hope to install here.
I don't know where you get because people disagree with your political views they are some how self-loathing? Talk about left field-whew that's some pretty imaginative horseshit there.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm not surprised at all.

Its really nothing unique to Obama. Stubborn political allegiances are common.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Its really nothing unique to Obama. Stubborn political allegiances are common.

In the case of Barack Hussein, I believe it goes beyond political allegiances. It's personal.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Fast Times at Ridgemont HighEven better.

markk
07-24-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't know where you get because people disagree with your political views they are some how self-loathing? Talk about left field-whew that's some pretty imaginative horseshit there.

The left worships Europe because Europe has largely implemented the socialist model that the American left want to foist upon us here in the United States. They think those countries are better than we are and that we should emulate them and slavishly devote ourselves to gaining their approval.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't know where you get because people disagree with your political views they are some how self-loathing? Talk about left field-whew that's some pretty imaginative horseshit there.

We have a presumptive Democrat candidate for POTUS giving a public speech in Germany where he declares himself as a "citizen of the world." That's all fine and dandy, but why is he giving the speech in the first place?

And, would you agree that the left tends to care much more deeply about what the rest of the world thinks about us than does the right?

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:45 PM
In the case of Barack Hussein, I believe it goes beyond political allegiances. It's personal.
It does become personal when someone(of any political affiliation) is constantly slandered for falsehoods. Most stand up for justice when faced with a constant barrading of hatred and lies.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:47 PM
It does become personal when someone(of any political affiliation) is constantly slandered for falsehoods. Most stand up for justice when faced with a constant barrading of hatred and lies.

That sounds like a personal issue to me. When Bush was slandered, I didn't take it personally.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:48 PM
If you listen to his speech, he explains why lefts care about Europe. The 9/11 hijackers got together in Hamburg, they trained in Kandahar (yes I know Kandahar isn't in Europe, but the point is how you need global cooperation).
You can't fight the war on terror without the help of Europeans.
And the best way to ensure positive cooperation is not to alienate your allies.
Rightly or wrongly, many Europeans formed negative views of America based on the Bush administration.
We shouldn't necessarily care what they think for our own self-esteem, but we should care that they will work with us on achieving our common goals.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:50 PM
We have a presumptive Democrat candidate for POTUS giving a public speech in Germany where he declares himself as a "citizen of the world." That's all fine and dandy, but why is he giving the speech in the first place?

And, would you agree that the left tends to care much more deeply about what the rest of the world thinks about us than does the right? I really don't know how the left FEEL? Again, to be a world leader, one must have a prescence in the world. A WORLD LEADER must reach out to the nations-there is nothing flawed in that line of thinking.

markk
07-24-2008, 02:50 PM
If you listen to his speech, he explains why lefts care about Europe. The 9/11 hijackers got together in Hamburg, they trained in Kandahar (yes I know Kandahar isn't in Europe, but the point is how you need global cooperation).
You can't fight the war on terror without the help of Europeans.
And the best way to ensure positive cooperation is not to alienate your enemies.
Rightly or wrongly, many Europeans formed negative views of America based on the Bush administration.
We shouldn't necessarily care what they think for our own self-esteem, but we should care that when it comes time to work together, we will have respect and support for our common goals.

So, is what you are saying that these countries have been withholding intelligence on terrorist threats because they are miffed about something?

noa
07-24-2008, 02:51 PM
So, is what you are saying that these countries have been withholding intelligence on terrorist threats because they are miffed about something?

No.
Do you think prudent foreign policy dictates that you shouldn't care about pissing off your allies?

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:51 PM
If you listen to his speech, he explains why lefts care about Europe. The 9/11 hijackers got together in Hamburg, they trained in Kandahar.
You can't fight the war on terror without the cooperation of Europeans.
And the best way to ensure positive cooperation is not to alienate your enemies.
Rightly or wrongly, many Europeans formed negative views of America based on the Bush administration.
We shouldn't necessarily care what they think for our own self-esteem, but we should care that when it comes time to work together, we will have respect and support for our common goals.

The so-called lack of cooperation began after we invaded Iraq in 2003. Considering 9/11 happened in 2001, I fail to see your point.

People need to realize that the European public's view of us is not the same as their governments view of us.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:52 PM
I really don't know how the left FEEL? Again, to be a world leader, one must have a prescence in the world. A WORLD LEADER must reach out to the nations-there is nothing flawed in that line of thinking.

I don't disagree. But, perhaps Barack Hussein should become a world leader first.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:52 PM
That sounds like a personal issue to me. When Bush was slandered, I didn't take it personally.I'm not taking this personal either, but I can see how SOME are. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bush deserves the CRITISISM for doing a lousy job. So will Obama or McCain, or Tim Buck Two if they do a lousy job at running our country.

markk
07-24-2008, 02:53 PM
I really don't know how the left FEEL? Again, to be a world leader, one must have a prescence in the world. A WORLD LEADER must reach out to the nations-there is nothing flawed in that line of thinking.

I'm surprised that Osama doesn't come out and surrender right now. He obviously hasn't heard that BO gave a flowery speech and threw a concert in Berlin.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:54 PM
The so-called lack of cooperation began after we invaded Iraq in 2003. Considering 9/11 happened in 2001, I fail to see your point.

People need to realize that the European public's view of us is not the same as their governments view of us.

He's not saying they didn't cooperate with us before 9/11. He's saying that 9/11 was an illustration of why a new level of cooperation is necessary. And for Europe to be fully on board with our approach to the WoT, and for us to have credibility in terms of getting them on board with our tactics and goals, then it would help not to be doing crap that pisses them off, like extraordinary rendition in their countries (i.e., Italy).

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 02:55 PM
I don't disagree. But, perhaps Barack Hussein should become a world leader first.
Well that's hard to do since Bush still holds the office, now isn't it? That shouldn't stop him from reaching out to the nations to show a readiness, now should it?

So now some are critisizing him for being to worldly? Christ, when will the madness end?

Radar Chief
07-24-2008, 02:55 PM
The vast majority of the posters in this forum have their minds made up already. We aren't here to convince each other to change parties.

Its really a shameful product of the party system. We ally ourselves to these identities and stick by it vehemently and vilify each other. We make decisions to support policies based on the letter D or R next to a name, rather than the merit of the policy. But that's the nature of our system, and I don't think anyone out there should be surprised that Obama fans haven't switched sides over the attempts of some in this forum.

:spock: What do you mean, “we”. You French or something?



:D

markk
07-24-2008, 02:55 PM
People need to realize that the European public's view of us is not the same as their governments view of us.

I think anyone who does business there or spends much time on holiday will know that. Most of the people I hear in deep despair over loathed we are among the European public doesn't know what they are talking about.

It's kind of condescending anyway to paint the population of an entire continent as single-minded oafs who can't draw a distinction between people and their government.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:56 PM
:spock: What do you mean, “we”. You French or something?



:D

I am the Lorax, I speak for the "we's" :)

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:56 PM
He's not saying they didn't cooperate with us before 9/11. He's saying that 9/11 was an illustration of why a new level of cooperation is necessary. And for Europe to be fully on board with our approach to the WoT, and for us to have credibility in terms of getting them on board with our tactics and goals, then it would help not to be doing crap that pisses them off, like extraordinary rendition in their countries (i.e., Italy).

And, they were cooperating before 9/11 and it still happened.

Donger
07-24-2008, 02:57 PM
Well that's hard to do since Bush still holds the office, now isn't it? That shouldn't stop him from reaching out to the nations to show a readiness, now should it?

So now some are critisizing him for being to worldly? Christ, when will the madness end?

I think it's fine that he went. I just find it unusual that he would give a public speech.

That's all.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:57 PM
It's kind of condescending anyway to paint the population of an entire continent as single-minded oafs who can't draw a distinction between people and their government.

Its also condescending to think that we can act however we want and the entire continent will go along with it, no matter what we do or how imprudent we are.

noa
07-24-2008, 02:58 PM
And, they were cooperating before 9/11 and it still happened.

Donger, he's not saying that we could have prevented 9/11. Its the lesson we learned from it.

markk
07-24-2008, 03:00 PM
Its also condescending to think that we can act however we want and the entire continent will go along with it, no matter what we do or how imprudent we are.

Some went along with us to Iraq. Two notably did not. So what? They didn't want to come and they didn't.

What does that have to do with them not cooperating to stop international terrorism? Is it not in their interest to do so? Are the Germans going to hear about a terror plot in the US and not tell us because they think we insulted their honor in some way?

I frankly give the people of Europe a lot more credit than you do.

vailpass
07-24-2008, 03:03 PM
Fast Times at Ridgemont High

Way to go Hamilton!!!!!!!

noa
07-24-2008, 03:03 PM
I gotta go, but you guys can continue advocating a foreign policy that doesn't factor into decision-making whether what we are doing is going to piss off our allies. That's fine. I simply disagree.
And I absolutely think it is in Europe's best interest to cooperate with us. That is plenty motivation. Obama doesn't argue otherwise. The argument is just that it will be even better if we both believe in our common missions, and if some people view our mission with extraordinary renditions and torture in mind, then it might taint their view of our motivations.

Donger
07-24-2008, 03:07 PM
I gotta go, but you guys can continue advocating a foreign policy that doesn't factor into decision-making whether what we are doing is going to piss off our allies. That's fine. I simply disagree.
And I absolutely think it is in Europe's best interest to cooperate with us. That is plenty motivation. Obama doesn't argue otherwise. The argument is just that it will be even better if we both believe in our common missions, and if some people view our mission with extraordinary renditions and torture in mind, then it might taint their view of our motivations.

I don't think anyone is saying that at all. I would hope that even Barack Hussein would put America's interests first and before Europe's, that's all.

Oh, and he might want to actually win the election, too.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:16 PM
Oh, and he might want to actually win the election, too.

I'm pretty sure he's working to attain that goal, no?

Donger
07-24-2008, 03:16 PM
I'm pretty sure he's working to attain that goal, no?

Yes, in Germany and France.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:18 PM
McCain is just a little out of touch. I do not want this Bush part two leading our country.
Get an original thought.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:18 PM
Yes, in Germany and France. Yep, he hasn't toured the states at all, right?


Mountain meet Mr. Molehill.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:20 PM
Get an original thought.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Sorry, but McCain should probably be the one worrying about getting an original thought before me, don't ya think?

beer bacon
07-24-2008, 03:22 PM
Get an original thought.

Subtle advice to McCain.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:24 PM
The vast majority of the posters in this forum have their minds made up already. We aren't here to convince each other to change parties.

Its really a shameful product of the party system. We ally ourselves to these identities and stick by it vehemently and vilify each other. We make decisions to support policies based on the letter D or R next to a name, rather than the merit of the policy. But that's the nature of our system, and I don't think anyone out there should be surprised that Obama fans haven't switched sides over the attempts of some in this forum.Since when? McCain sucks, and would fit in nicely with the Democrat party. He was considered for Kerry as a VP, and has given consideration to Lucky Lieberman as VP now.

Speak for yourself, just give me some freaking gas at an affordable price, and plenty of it. Don't tell me to turn off my thermostat.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:25 PM
Subtle advice to McCain.Can't say that I disagree with this, the man is a buffoon.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:25 PM
The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Sorry, but McCain should probably be the one worrying about getting an original thought before me, don't ya think?Its the OIL STUPID.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:28 PM
Its the OIL STUPID.
No comprende. You really should open your mouth wider when you try to speak.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:28 PM
It's the Oil stupid, that is what that lispy voiced Mary Matlin, wife of the the ragin cajin, is saying to that fool right now.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:29 PM
No comprende. You really should open your mouth wider when you try to speak.
I realize this is your first campaign, but, try to keep up.

keg in kc
07-24-2008, 03:30 PM
Someone has to start to repair our international image after the damage brought by 8 years of Bush. Figure it can't hurt to start now instead of waiting for January, regardless of who wins.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:34 PM
IOW, the war is passe, we won the mfugger. THat's right bitch, we won. That means, that we will be able to double Iraqs oil ouput within a couple of years. Do you know how many bpd they produce right now? Do you give a shit? As long as we don't drill in Anwar right?

Tell that to all the blue collar people, that the dems purport to support, that have to pay 100 bucks a tank to get to work.

It's the oil stupid. Every time McCain speaks, he needs to be splainin how he is going to deliver more, more, MORE OIL to the American consumer, each of whom has a vote.

That trumps all the rest of this bullshit plain and simple. We don't want to hear about how a solar panel is going to fill our tanks.

It's the OIL stupid. If McCain isn't stupid, he will go for it, and win, cause NOBAMA aint going to drill. He already said, that this is good long term for the US, it just would have been nice if the price would have gotten here a bit slower.

I would expect nothing lest from a Marxist, central planner, who thinks they can tweak every aspect of our multi-trillion dollar international economy.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:34 PM
I realize this is your first campaign, but, try to keep up.
Okay bunny boy, yu r so edjamucated on yur politiks, Hows dos Is keeps ups wit yas...

memyselfI
07-24-2008, 03:35 PM
I think this low key response will be helpful in the future. McCain has far less further to fall than NObama.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:35 PM
Someone has to start to repair our international image after the damage brought by 8 years of Bush. Figure it can't hurt to start now instead of waiting for January, regardless of who wins.Dude, I could give 2 rats asses about what some citizen from a country we had to kick ass or save twice in the last century thinks about me, or my government when I am paying 100 bucks per tank of gas.

Spew that shit all you want, just give me cheaper, affordable energy.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:37 PM
Okay bunny boy, yu r so edjamucated on yur politiks, Hows dos Is keeps ups wit yas...
You have to type faster, see my post above.

***SPRAYER
07-24-2008, 03:38 PM
The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Sorry, but McCain should probably be the one worrying about getting an original thought before me, don't ya think?


Shut up, Piss boy! Prepare thy bucket!

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:38 PM
I think this low key response will be helpful in the future. McCain has far less further to fall than NObama.
What a great plan for a leader of the free world. Sit back and do nothing and say very little. Whew, McCain it is. Those are the qualities I want in my leaders.

Jesus, what a bunch of tripe.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 03:45 PM
Okay bunny boy, yu r so edjamucated on yur politiks, Hows dos Is keeps ups wit yas...Who you calling a boy?

VAChief
07-24-2008, 03:49 PM
I think this low key response will be helpful in the future. McCain has far less further to fall than NObama.

Speaking of falling far Denise, it is hard for me to believe you put any credence into some of this purely hate filled rhetoric you have begun to champion. I mean the "AntiChrist?"

Obama in my opinion is vulnerable on his experience, just like Bush Jr. was when he was elected...well maybe that isn't a good example, but my gosh the hatred for this man goes beyond simple logic and especially for someone who proclaimed to be against the war in the first place.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Who you calling a boy? What are you going to do try and kick my ass? You're taking this just a little too far when somebody doesn't see things they way that you do, Oh that's right, it's the ****ing oil, right? That's the only GD issue in the states today, the oil damnit.

Sorry, but you called me out FIRST, if you can't roll with it, than don't play.

memyselfI
07-24-2008, 03:55 PM
What a great plan for a leader of the free world. Sit back and do nothing and say very little. Whew, McCain it is. Those are the qualities I want in my leaders.

Jesus, what a bunch of tripe.

Look, it's a matter of experience and substance vs. impetuousness and style. I am not a McCain supporter and I certainly do not want NObama to win but I think that gives me a unique view of their actions.

IMO, having 200k Germans rallying for NObama will cause a pause for Independents who value the US sense of identity and individualism. They will not be swayed or appealed to the call for 'one world' or an orchestrated well attended photo op over seas. If anything, I think it will cause a backlash.

McCain, playing the lowkey opposite and actually playing his situation as the inferior photo op it is simply reinforces his image as being a real person with real flaws while NObama's reinforces his rock star, cult, messianic image.

I just find the contrast by McCain to be purposeful and SMART. He's playing to the American voter while NObama is playing past them. Literally and figuratively.

memyselfI
07-24-2008, 03:58 PM
Speaking of falling far Denise, it is hard for me to believe you put any credence into some of this purely hate filled rhetoric you have begun to champion. I mean the "AntiChrist?"

Obama in my opinion is vulnerable on his experience, just like Bush Jr. was when he was elected...well maybe that isn't a good example, but my gosh the hatred for this man goes beyond simple logic and especially for someone who proclaimed to be against the war in the first place.

The links are for NObama websites. I need to update my signature because theire are literally HUNDREDS now where there were simply dozens before. Now, to chose which ones to like to will be hard.

BigChiefFan
07-24-2008, 04:00 PM
Look, it's a matter of experience and substance vs. style and impetuousness. I am not a McCain supporter and I certainly do not want NObama to win but I think that gives me a unique view of their actions.

IMO, having 200k Germans rallying for NObama will cause a pause for Independents who value the US sense of identity and individualism. They will not be swayed or appealed to the call for 'one world.' If anything, I think it will cause a backlash.

McCain playing the lowkey opposite and actually playing his situation as the inferior photo op it is simply reinforces his image as being a real person with real flaws while NObama's reinforces his rock star, cult, messianic image.

I just find the contrast by McCain to be purposeful and SMART. He's playing to the American voter while NObama is playing past them. You just have redass and you can't stand it. Your candidate wasn't picked, so now you want to throw a tantrum without any basis for factual information.

beer bacon
07-24-2008, 04:18 PM
The links are for NObama websites. I need to update my signature because theire are literally HUNDREDS now where there were simply dozens before. Now, to chose which ones to like to will be hard.

Are you a supporter of Larry Sinclair?

beer bacon
07-24-2008, 04:23 PM
IOW, the war is passe, we won the mfugger. THat's right bitch, we won. That means, that we will be able to double Iraqs oil ouput within a couple of years. Do you know how many bpd they produce right now? Do you give a shit? As long as we don't drill in Anwar right?

Tell that to all the blue collar people, that the dems purport to support, that have to pay 100 bucks a tank to get to work.

It's the oil stupid. Every time McCain speaks, he needs to be splainin how he is going to deliver more, more, MORE OIL to the American consumer, each of whom has a vote.

That trumps all the rest of this bullshit plain and simple. We don't want to hear about how a solar panel is going to fill our tanks.

It's the OIL stupid. If McCain isn't stupid, he will go for it, and win, cause NOBAMA aint going to drill. He already said, that this is good long term for the US, it just would have been nice if the price would have gotten here a bit slower.

I would expect nothing lest from a Marxist, central planner, who thinks they can tweak every aspect of our multi-trillion dollar international economy.

IMHO whichever candidate runs as the imperialist that will insure the spice flows will win.

The fact that you are hurling insults at others while you proclaim that the only thing that matters to the American people is who can conquer more oil-producing states is absurd. You should start a thread where you reconcile this imperialist doctrine with the ideals this country was founded upon.

Your post is even more idiotic because since Bush has taken office, a man who apparently conquered Iraq to lower gas prices for hard-working blue collar empire loving Americans, the price of oil has gone from under $1.50/gallon to $4.00/gallon. This could be the most incompetent war for treasure in the history of mankind.

Adept Havelock
07-24-2008, 04:32 PM
IMHO whichever candidate runs as the imperialist that will insure the spice flows will win.


Frank certainly hit on the truth of Hydraulic Empires, didn't he.

This could be the most incompetent war for treasure in the history of mankind.

I'm going to reserve that honor for the War in Europe, circa 1939-1945.

That was a specularly incompetent war for treasure.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 04:33 PM
IMHO whichever candidate runs as the imperialist that will insure the spice flows will win.

The fact that you are hurling insults at others while you proclaim that the only thing that matters to the American people is who can conquer more oil-producing states is absurd. You should start a thread where you reconcile this imperialist doctrine with the ideals this country was founded upon.

Your post is even more idiotic because since Bush has taken office, a man who apparently conquered Iraq to lower gas prices for hard-working blue collar empire loving Americans, the price of oil has gone from under $1.50/gallon to $4.00/gallon. This could be the most incompetent war for treasure in the history of mankind.This is bullshit. Because we all know, that whatever we do to get more oil today, "it won't lower the price of gas by a penny in over 10 years".

Please square that asinine statement with your blame of the increase on only 5 years of Invasion, regime change(Klinton supported), occupation, defeated insurgency, and lastly political reconstruction?

Soon Iraq will be "safe" enough for billions in capital investment needed to exploit the vast oil reserves that it has. Yes, another 2 million BPD can be brought online with that investment. As far as all the lives that were spent making this possible, we can thank all the goddamned enviromental assholes for not letting us exploit our own natural resources.

penchief
07-24-2008, 04:39 PM
No, he like most liberals experiences self-loathing feelings on behalf of the United States, and sees Western Europe as more enlightened and advanced than we are (because Europe has embraced socialism and we have yet to do so) , worthy of our attempting to ingratiate ourselves to them and placing the approval of others at an extremely high level of importance.

Most people are secure in our national identity, what America is, why it is great, and want us to continue being who and what we are. Liberals go around like Eeyore, feeling sorry for ourselves that they feel we aren't as cosmopolitan as Europe is, and wishing someday we could get contacts and a new wardrobe to be one of the popular kids and go out with the prom king too.

How do righties know that liberals are self-loathing and think Europeans are more enlightened? I'm not self-loathing. I don't think Europe is more enlightened.

I do, however, think righties like to assign motives to liberals when they can't come up with a legitimate counter-argument. It's typical of righties to resort to the tact of belittlement and derision.

Having self-awareness is not the same thing as being self-loathing.

ROYC75
07-24-2008, 04:59 PM
Oh come on now, he went to Germany to get his winer schnitzel.

Calcountry
07-24-2008, 05:00 PM
How do righties know that liberals are self-loathing and think Europeans are more enlightened? I'm not self-loathing. I don't think Europe is more enlightened.

I do, however, think righties like to assign motives to liberals when they can't come up with a legitimate counter-argument. It's typical of righties to resort to the tact of belittlement and derision.

Having self-awareness is not the same thing as being self-loathing.It is typical of lefties to condescend to the level of main streem Americans, you know, the kind that "clings to their god and their guns", while at the same time inserting themselves as a "man of the people".

Crap.

markk
07-24-2008, 05:02 PM
How do righties know that liberals are self-loathing and think Europeans are more enlightened? I'm not self-loathing. I don't think Europe is more enlightened.

I do, however, think righties like to assign motives to liberals when they can't come up with a legitimate counter-argument. It's typical of righties to resort to the tact of belittlement and derision.

Having self-awareness is not the same thing as being self-loathing.

I was not interested in a counter arugment. that has been discussed ad nauseum. I was interested in discussing motives. I think self loathing is an identifying leftist trait.

penchief
07-24-2008, 05:50 PM
I was not interested in a counter arugment. that has been discussed ad nauseum. I was interested in discussing motives. I think self loathing is an identifying leftist trait.

I would think you are wrong. When righties assign "self-loathing" to liberals they are projecting (a rightist trait) their own sins onto others. They project because they are in denial (another rightist trait).

Righties are incapable of self-examination. They are so rigid in their thinking that any objective evaluation of oneself is viewed as self-loathing. This is why righties live in a black and white world. It is why they have a hard time changing course or are unwilling to admit a mistake. It is why righties in this country would just as soon see Bush drive the bus off the cliff than admit that we could do better. It is why they are so easily drawn to fascism.

It's not self-loathing to want to do better. Wanting to do better is a form of self-respect. It isn't self-loathing to want to do the right thing, either. Since righties are incapable of making that distinction they resort to projecting. Only a self-loathing person would want to continue punishing oneself rather than change the behavior that is causing the harm. It is easier to project their self-loathing ways onto those who actually want to improve their lot.

As you can see, there is a high level of cognitive dissonance involved in right wing logic.

markk
07-24-2008, 06:11 PM
Alright, I've been a bit of a troll lately. But I'll try to put on my serious hat now.


Righties are incapable of self-examination. They are so rigid in their thinking that any objective evaluation of oneself is viewed as self-loathing.


I see the self loathing in the relentless wish that we were socialist europe. I would not think that would be a controversial premise. Europe has descended into socialism and the left agrees with most of it to one extent or another. Being consumed with what one sees as one's own overpowering shortcomings would constitute self-loathing I believe.


This is why righties live in a black and white world. It is why they have a hard time changing course or are unwilling to admit a mistake. It is why righties in this country would just as soon see Bush drive the bus off the cliff than admit that we could do better. It is why they are so easily drawn to fascism.


I think there is more black and white in the world than anything else. I suppose those are fundamentals on which we would never agree.

I don't agree that I would "rather see Bush drive the bus off the cliff than admit we could do better." I'm moderately dissatisfied with him because I don't believe he is a classical conservative as he was played up in 2000. I would never say, no matter who the leader, that we can't do any better.

And I find it difficult to believe that you really think we as conservatives all want fascism. The point of fascism I see as being the sacrifice of all liberty for the advancement of the state. Its identifying characteristics are central government control and administration of all social, economic, political behavior.

As a liberal, I can see why you might say in hyperbole that conservatives want government control of all social behavior, it isn't so. As a conservative I want the government out of every part of social engineering, save those things that protect basic inalienable things like human life. Certainly conservatives do not want capitalism eradicated in favor of government run economy.

Fascism is simply a slur, much as it would be to call a liberal a communist. Calling a liberal a socialist however might be descriptive and defensible. But to say a conservative wants fascism is simply to muddy the waters, even if we probably weren't going to be sailing anywhere anyway.


It isn't self-loathing to want to do the right thing, either.

I think your major fault is that you attribute malice where only disagreement exists on what the 'right' think to do is. You've dressed us all in black hats and mustaches with aplomb, when we simply feel we have a different blueprint to build the most durable and free system we can have in an imperfect world.

Only a self-loathing person would want to continue punishing oneself rather than change the behavior that is causing the harm. It is easier to project their self-loathing ways onto those who actually want to improve their lot.

I suppose that "I know you are, but what am I?" is also easier.

penchief
07-24-2008, 06:50 PM
I see the self loathing in the relentless wish that we were socialist europe. I would not think that would be a controversial premise. Europe has descended into socialism and the left agrees with most of it to one extent or another. Being consumed with what one sees as one's own overpowering shortcomings would constitute self-loathing I believe.

You are assigning motives again. I have no desire to copy Europe and neither do most liberals in this country. Most liberals I know were quite content with the United States before Corpo-fascism started to erode our own special brand of democracy.

Because you are incapable of understanding where liberals are coming from you choose to assign a motive only because it puts things neatly in a box for you.

I think there is more black and white in the world than anything else. I suppose those are fundamentals on which we would never agree.

I don't agree that I would "rather see Bush drive the bus off the cliff than admit we could do better." I'm moderately dissatisfied with him because I don't believe he is a classical conservative as he was played up in 2000. I would never say, no matter who the leader, that we can't do any better.

And I find it difficult to believe that you really think we as conservatives all want fascism. The point of fascism I see as being the sacrifice of all liberty for the advancement of the state. Its identifying characteristics are central government control and administration of all social, economic, political behavior.

As a liberal, I can see why you might say in hyperbole that conservatives want government control of all social behavior, it isn't so. As a conservative I want the government out of every part of social engineering, save those things that protect basic inalienable things like human life. Certainly conservatives do not want capitalism eradicated in favor of government run economy.

You are confusing right-wingers with conservatives. I consider myself a conservative even though I am a political liberal. I am a fiscal conservative and I am an advocate of self-reliance. It's just that history has proven that you can't have liberty and justice without a level playing field. I am an advocate of free-enterprise but I am not an advocate of Darwinian economics. Regulation is necessary to ensure that everyone has a chance to pull themselves up by the bootstraps instead of being subjected to slave-like conditions.

I believe that it is conservative to treat our natural habitat with caution. I don't believe that it is conservative to place the pofit motive above all else in life, including the environment and human justice.

Righties throw out those terms like "social engineering" in order to skew the debate. They always employ diversionary tactics so that the gist of the debate is lost in rhetoric. Trying to enforce laws that protect the rights of everyone to not be exploited is not the same as social engineering. We are the land of opportunity because we are a land of laws. Regulations are laws intended to protect everyone's right to succeed. Not just the opportunities of those who can dominate, usurp, and monopolize.

Fascism is simply a slur, much as it would be to call a liberal a communist. Calling a liberal a socialist however might be descriptive and defensible. But to say a conservative wants fascism is simply to muddy the waters, even if we probably weren't going to be sailing anywhere anyway.

I never called conservatives fascists. I said that righties are drawn toward fascism. And as I've already stated, I see myself as much or more conservative than most righties.

That said, fascism is a political reality. And when aspects of fascism are successfully employed to accomplish political ends (as they are in this country at this moment), it can be said that we are experiencing evolving fascism. And those who advocate those fascist behaviors by the Bush Administration are advocating evolving fascism. I think those people are right-wingers but not necessarily conservatives.

I think your major fault is that you attribute malice where only disagreement exists on what the 'right' think to do is. You've dressed us all in black hats and mustaches with aplomb, when we simply feel we have a different blueprint to build the most durable and free system we can have in an imperfect world.

I don't think I apply malice when I'm debating. I try to be as gentlemanly as I can. I endure a lot of insults but they don't bother me much because I prefer to stay on topic. As far as applying malice to the motives of the current administration, I believe that the proof is in the pudding.

It is they who have been malicious in what they do. Whether it be belittling political opponents or equating dissention to treason. Whether it be corrutping justice or hurling insults at our allies. Whether it be lying us into war or lying about spying on us. The list is long and I could go on but you get the picture.

I challenge anyone to name one thing this administration has made better.

I suppose that "I know you are, but what am I?" is also easier.

I think you will find that I generally try to avoid using that as a debating technique.

memyselfI
07-25-2008, 08:53 AM
You just have redass and you can't stand it. Your candidate wasn't picked, so now you want to throw a tantrum without any basis for factual information.

Wow, great rebuttal. Guess we'll see how the Messiah's trip plays back home. My guess it won't be the slam drunk his Koolade drinkers believe it to be.

tiptap
07-25-2008, 09:02 AM
Alright, I've been a bit of a troll lately. But I'll try to put on my serious hat now.



I see the self loathing in the relentless wish that we were socialist europe. I would not think that would be a controversial premise. Europe has descended into socialism and the left agrees with most of it to one extent or another. Being consumed with what one sees as one's own overpowering shortcomings would constitute self-loathing I believe.



I think there is more black and white in the world than anything else. I suppose those are fundamentals on which we would never agree.

I don't agree that I would "rather see Bush drive the bus off the cliff than admit we could do better." I'm moderately dissatisfied with him because I don't believe he is a classical conservative as he was played up in 2000. I would never say, no matter who the leader, that we can't do any better.

And I find it difficult to believe that you really think we as conservatives all want fascism. The point of fascism I see as being the sacrifice of all liberty for the advancement of the state. Its identifying characteristics are central government control and administration of all social, economic, political behavior.

As a liberal, I can see why you might say in hyperbole that conservatives want government control of all social behavior, it isn't so. As a conservative I want the government out of every part of social engineering, save those things that protect basic inalienable things like human life. Certainly conservatives do not want capitalism eradicated in favor of government run economy.

Fascism is simply a slur, much as it would be to call a liberal a communist. Calling a liberal a socialist however might be descriptive and defensible. But to say a conservative wants fascism is simply to muddy the waters, even if we probably weren't going to be sailing anywhere anyway.



I think your major fault is that you attribute malice where only disagreement exists on what the 'right' think to do is. You've dressed us all in black hats and mustaches with aplomb, when we simply feel we have a different blueprint to build the most durable and free system we can have in an imperfect world.



I suppose that "I know you are, but what am I?" is also easier.

Actually liberals tend to view Fascism as letting Industry run the government. That is what big business Republicans trump. It does tend to be centralized and militant. You know thinking the military is the first, second and third choice in solving problems. There is always an enemy is so great as to need ever larger military. Now you may be a libertarian Republican but that ignores the real influence of corporations as opposed to small businesses and middle class interests.

So in our understanding of fascism, there are similarities that are not removed by impugning we have got fascism altogether wrong simply because we don't dwell solely on the centralized aspect.

penchief
07-25-2008, 09:06 AM
Wow, great rebuttal. Guess we'll see how the Messiah's trip plays back home. My guess it won't be the slam drunk his Koolade drinkers believe it to be.

Am I a Kool-Ade drinker because I'm going to vote for him?

Adept Havelock
07-25-2008, 09:09 AM
So in our understanding of fascism, there are similarities that are not removed by impugning we have got fascism altogether wrong simply because we don't dwell solely on the centralized aspect.

A good point. Militant Corporatism is certainly a component, as it was when Benito first put forth the idea.

Granted, when it comes to the definition of a word, I'm inclined to go with the Oxford English Dictionary, over the definition of some guy on a bulletin board, or a group interested in painting all extremists as leftists or rightists.

fascism

/fashiz’m/

• noun 1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government. 2 extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

— DERIVATIVES fascist noun & adjective fascistic adjective.

— ORIGIN Italian fascismo, from fascio ‘bundle, political group’, from Latin fascis ‘bundle’.

As the OED is the closest thing we have to an "authoritative" repository of definitions in the English Language... :shrug:

I suggest you take it up with those chaps, if you have a problem with it. :)

memyselfI
07-25-2008, 09:15 AM
Am I a Kool-Ade drinker because I'm going to vote for him?

No, you haven't been pimping the guy with reckless abandoned like some around here. You are supporting him with reservation. I do think you are still drinking some Democratic party koolade though, sorry.

penchief
07-25-2008, 09:42 AM
No, you haven't been pimping the guy with reckless abandoned like some around here. You are supporting him with reservation. I do think you are still drinking some Democratic party koolade though, sorry.

Just because I haven't completely disowned the democratic party like you have?

I have my own mind. Even though I do believe that a democratic president is the first step to turning this catastrophe around, I have no illusions about how much housecleaning is needed in both parties before our government starts representin' again.

|Zach|
07-25-2008, 10:11 AM
No, you haven't been pimping the guy with reckless abandoned like some around here. You are supporting him with reservation. I do think you are still drinking some Democratic party koolade though, sorry.

And we all appreciate the ideas you bring forward.

Whenever you find some.