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Direckshun
07-24-2008, 09:33 PM
Cards probably wouldn't go for it, but would you be open-minded?

What's the highest pick you'd forfeit with Tony G?

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 09:34 PM
None.

blueballs
07-24-2008, 09:35 PM
What did Tony G do to you

petegz28
07-24-2008, 09:35 PM
Cards probably wouldn't go for it, but would you be open-minded?

What's the highest pick you'd forfeit with Tony G?



What did the 5 fingers say to the face???

Direckshun
07-24-2008, 09:36 PM
None.
Tony's got like 5 years left, max. Only 2 or 3 pro bowl years left, max.

Boldin's going to be this good for like 7 or 8 more years.

You're going to need to forfeit a pick.

DaFace
07-24-2008, 09:36 PM
If TG requested it, I'd consider it I suppose. But it would be one hell of a slap to the face for Gonzo after he's stuck with the organization all these years if he weren't all for it. I'd have to agree with the above - no way.

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 09:36 PM
Tony's got like 5 years left, max. Only 2 or 3 pro bowl years left, max.

Boldin's going to be this good for like 7 or 8 more years.

You're going to need to forfeit a pick.

Id rather forfeit picks than tony g. Think about his LEGACY here.

SPchief
07-24-2008, 09:37 PM
If TG requested it, I'd consider it I suppose. But it would be one hell of a slap to the face for Gonzo after he's stuck with the organization all these years if he weren't all for it. I'd have to agree with the above - no way.

And not to mention, trading him to the freaking cards

SNR
07-24-2008, 09:41 PM
I wouldn't do the trade.

Joie
07-24-2008, 09:42 PM
I wouldn't even consider trading Tony G. He's done great things for this organization. To trade him without him requesting it would be an insult.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:42 PM
Why the **** would he want to plat for the Cards for any other reason than money?

rambleonthruthefog
07-24-2008, 09:42 PM
F no!! terrible idea.

Dicky McElephant
07-24-2008, 09:43 PM
How about this.......what would you give up in picks for Boldin?

I'd go with a 2nd.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:43 PM
Um the Cards have a damn good young roster.....

Some of the best players at their position in the league are on that team, even though I guess no one wants to notice it.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:43 PM
How about this.......what would you give up in picks for Boldin?

I'd go with a 2nd.

WR's are becoming harder and harder to find.......so his value will be very high.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:44 PM
No No. Tony needs to break every TE record, on this team, and hopefully we can get him a playoff win, and maybe even a ring in the twilight of his career. We owe it to him.

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 09:44 PM
How about this.......what would you give up in picks for Boldin?

I'd go with a 2nd.

I was thinking the same thing. Conditional second, prolly.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:45 PM
Um the Cards have a damn good young roster.....

Some of the best players at their position in the league are on that team, even though I guess no one wants to notice it.

I agree with that, but they have been touted as breakout team every year, and every year, nothing.

PastorMikH
07-24-2008, 09:46 PM
We have a young QB we are trying to develop and we want to trade away his ONLY proven option to pass to?


No thanks.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:46 PM
I agree with that, but they have been touted as breakout team every year, and every year, nothing.

I think they're getting there, if Matt Leinart proves to be the man this year, and with the return of Adrian Wilson and Rolle moving back to safety I think this may be the year they do break out.

To me Rolle and Wilson make maybe the best safety tandem in the league.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:47 PM
We have a young QB we are trying to develop and we want to trade away his ONLY proven option to pass to?


No thanks.

Um you'd be trading him for another weapon, 1 that could be argued is more valuable....

Having 2 top flight WR's is a huge advantage...

PastorMikH
07-24-2008, 09:47 PM
I agree with that, but they have been touted as breakout team every year, and every year, nothing.



Yeah, kinda like Sandy Eggo a few years back, stinking forever in the league can land you some pretty good draft picks to develop.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:48 PM
Um the Cards have a damn good young roster.....

Some of the best players at their position in the league are on that team, even though I guess no one wants to notice it.

You just said in another thread, they may not have the money to keep some of their players, and they've won Jack to date, so how are they in any position to give Tony G a shot at anything? Are the Cards gonna be winning playoff games next season?

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:48 PM
Wait so you guys wouldn't trade talent with Arizona?

They're ahead of us in this process....

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:49 PM
Yeah, kinda like Sandy Eggo a few years back, stinking forever in the league can land you some pretty good draft picks to develop.

Yea, like they have for the last 30 yrs.

Or the Lions, they pick high a lot.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:49 PM
You just said in another thread, they may not have the money to keep some of their players, and they've won Jack to date, so how are they in any position to give Tony G a shot at anything? Are the Cards gonna be winning playoff games next season?

They have to re-do some deals, but Dansby is on the tag so they'll have to pay him, they can keep it together it's the question if they will or not.

In the end though like I said I think Boldin is posturing to get more money when even he knows a team can't have 2 top 5 paid WR's on the same team.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:52 PM
Wait so you guys wouldn't trade talent with Arizona?

They're ahead of us in this process....

Yes, they are. I never said that. I'm just saying Tony G is gonna want a chance at the Bowl if he's going somewhere.

Please tell me you're not putting the Cqards anywhere near the Bowl.

Oh shit USC. I forgot. I'd imagine you believe Lienart is going to become a franchise QB, and lead them to the promised land.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:53 PM
I think it's alot more likely Leinart is that guy than it is Croyle is that guy......

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:54 PM
So basically the Cards are short in a lot of areas, and are going to have to start shedding players, instead of having the space to add the pieces they need the way I envision our plan to be laid out.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:54 PM
I think it's alot more likely Leinart is that guy than it is Croyle is that guy......

Yeah, I figured.

blueballs
07-24-2008, 09:56 PM
either he can't beat out Kurt warner
or he has a injury problem

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 09:56 PM
I think it's alot more likely Leinart is that guy than it is Croyle is that guy......

You must have thought that I meant that the promised land was some 17 yr olds panties.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:58 PM
Why wouldn't anyone think that?

Leinart has always been a winner, he's supremely confident, he suffered an injury last year but prior to that he had never been injured. He has the body, the size, the head for the game....

The only thing Croyle has over him is that his arm is strong but having a rocket arm isn't needed.

I'm talking in pure prospect notions here not being a SC fan, cause I don't think Booty has it never did. Explain to me how in any way shape or form Croyle starts with a better chance of succeeding than Matt Leinart does?

Mecca
07-24-2008, 09:59 PM
either he can't beat out Kurt warner
or he has a injury problem

Apparently it's ok for Croyle to struggle in his early starts but when Matt Leinart does it he blows right......and their coach was a total dumbass for playing Warner when Leinart wasn't injured..

Notice Leinart is their starter ahead of Warner right now...

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:01 PM
Why wouldn't anyone think that?

Leinart has always been a winner, he's supremely confident, he suffered an injury last year but prior to that he had never been injured. He has the body, the size, the head for the game....

The only thing Croyle has over him is that his arm is strong but having a rocket arm isn't needed.

I'm talking in pure prospect notions here not being a SC fan, cause I don't think Booty has it never did. Explain to me how in any way shape or form Croyle starts with a better chance of succeeding than Matt Leinart does?

It was a joke, but your man crush is also injury prone, and looks like he's got happy feet. Didnt hurt that he played for one of the best college offenses in recent memory.

Tiger's Fan
07-24-2008, 10:01 PM
I think it's alot more likely Leinart is that guy than it is Croyle is that guy......

To this point, Leinart is bordering on being a bust. We don't know much about Croyle yet.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-24-2008, 10:01 PM
Apparently it's ok for Croyle to struggle in his early starts but when Matt Leinart does it he blows right......and their coach was a total dumbass for playing Warner when Leinart wasn't injured..

Notice Leinart is their starter ahead of Warner right now...

That was kind of strange that they went with Warner. Heck weren't the 2 splitting series for a while or something. As for the Cards, until that talent starts producing wins it doesn't mean a whole lot.

blueballs
07-24-2008, 10:02 PM
Apparently it's ok for Croyle to struggle in his early starts but when Matt Leinart does it he blows right......and their coach was a total dumbass for playing Warner when Leinart wasn't injured..

Notice Leinart is their starter ahead of Warner right now...

is this a good time to bring up
reggie bush

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:02 PM
Apparently it's ok for Croyle to struggle in his early starts but when Matt Leinart does it he blows right......and their coach was a total dumbass for playing Warner when Leinart wasn't injured..

Notice Leinart is their starter ahead of Warner right now...

HA HA HA! You hold a double standard for the two. You think it's alright for lienart to struggle but not Croyle.

Only Lienart has the best WR duo in the league.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:03 PM
It was a joke, but your man crush is also injury prone, and looks like he's got happy feet. Didnt hurt that he played for one of the best college offenses in recent memory.

And that offense took major steps back without him.....I know people talk about the other talent there but Leinart was one of the biggest reasons that offense was what it was.

I don't consider Leinart injury prone, he broke a collarbone, if he gets year ending injuries 2 more times then he's equal to Croyle.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:04 PM
HA HA HA! You hold a double standard for the two. You think it's alright for lienart to struggle but not Croyle.

Only Lienart has the best WR duo in the league.

Nope it's fine for him to struggle to, it's expected...

I just don't wanna hear how Matt Leinart sucks from the same people who say "lets give Croyle some time" it's a major double standard and that's all that meant.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:04 PM
To this point, Leinart is bordering on being a bust. We don't know much about Croyle yet.

Weren't they drafted in the same class?

How is Leinart a bust and Croyle not then.......

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:05 PM
Nope it's fine for him to struggle to, it's expected...

I just don't wanna hear how Matt Leinart sucks from the same people who say "lets give Croyle some time" it's a major double standard and that's all that meant.

It's funny how you can determine who those people are.

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 10:05 PM
Nope it's fine for him to struggle to, it's expected...

I just don't wanna hear how Matt Leinart sucks from the same people who say "lets give Croyle some time" it's a major double standard and that's all that meant.

Croyle sucks too. That's why he needs time. :shrug:

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:06 PM
It's funny how you can determine who those people are.

It's all that talk of Leinart being a bust already, how is that any different? He hasn't started that many games, people are so nice with the Croyle thing for the most part, Leinarts college success I guess made people think he was gonna be great from day 1.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:06 PM
And I never said Matt Lienart Sucks either. Do I think He's a frnchise QB? NO.

I haven't touted Croyle as being one either, but i don't think he sucks either.

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:06 PM
To this point, Leinart is bordering on being a bust. We don't know much about Croyle yet.


:clap:

Oh wait, I mean - croyle sucks [/mecca]

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:08 PM
:clap:

Oh wait, I mean - croyle sucks [/mecca]

This is what I'm talking about.......

Matt Leinart and Brodie Croyle were drafted the same year, why is Leinart bordering on bust while "Croyle needs time" ?

Is it because Leinart was a better college player?

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:08 PM
It's all that talk of Leinart being a bust already, how is that any different? He hasn't started that many games, people are so nice with the Croyle thing for the most part, Leinarts college success I guess made people think he was gonna be great from day 1.

Lienart needs more time without question, but I do worry about his happy feat,

He looks like he's scared to get hit by NFL players.

FTR I was really hoping the Titans would take Lienart over young.

He probably would have had a better career there.

blueballs
07-24-2008, 10:09 PM
Chiefsplanet can be a raging bitch

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:10 PM
This is what I'm talking about.......

Matt Leinart and Brodie Croyle were drafted the same year, why is Leinart bordering on bust while "Croyle needs time" ?

Is it because Leinart was a better college player?


or is it because Matt has had more playing time?
I don't know, call me silly but it may mean SOMETHING!!!!

macdawg
07-24-2008, 10:10 PM
I think the most the Chiefs would give up would be a 2nd for Boldin.

Boldin's performance in the league is worthy of a 1st round pick, he was drafted 2nd and has played like a 1st round pick all along, I'm sure the Cards could easily find a team willing to cough up a 1st for him if they wanted.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:10 PM
I still think he'll be ok, I know people poke fun at Leinart but he's a very smart guy their coach in his 2nd year now, I think he'll show major improvement this year.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:11 PM
This is what I'm talking about.......

Matt Leinart and Brodie Croyle were drafted the same year, why is Leinart bordering on bust while "Croyle needs time" ?

Is it because Leinart was a better college player?

No, It's because like you said, 1st rnd picks, high ones at that, are expected to be much better than 3rd rnders, and Lienart was supposed to be the most NFL ready QB in a while. When you don't live up to expectations....you become a bust.

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 10:11 PM
I think the most the Chiefs would give up would be a 2nd for Boldin.

Boldin's performance in the league is worthy of a 1st round pick, he was drafted 2nd and has played like a 1st round pick all along, I'm sure the Cards could easily find a team willing to cough up a 1st for him if they wanted.

Yea, but a chiefs second is like a first, only a second.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:12 PM
or is it because Matt has had more playing time?
I don't know, call me silly but it may mean SOMETHING!!!!

I think you're on to something my friend.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:13 PM
I still think he'll be ok, I know people poke fun at Leinart but he's a very smart guy their coach in his 2nd year now, I think he'll show major improvement this year.

If he played for the Chiefs, and went to college anywhere but USC, you might think differently.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:14 PM
or is it because Matt has had more playing time?
I don't know, call me silly but it may mean SOMETHING!!!!

Career 17 71.2 274 489 56.0 3194 187.9 6.5 13 16


Those are Leinarts career numbers which aren't all starts....

Career 11 65.8 130 231 56.3 1250 113.6 5.4 6 8

Those are Croyles, there's not that much of a difference so don't give me this "way more games thing" also Leinart already dealt with a head coach and system change in his tenure...

They're almost in the exact same spot in development with Leinart being slightly ahead and also being slightly more productive.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:15 PM
BTW, College football is about home state pride, and tradition.

Where are you from Mecca?

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:15 PM
If he played for the Chiefs, and went to college anywhere but USC, you might think differently.

Really I thought Ben Roethlisberger would be good, I'm pretty honest about if I think a player sucks SC or not.

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 10:15 PM
Career 17 71.2 274 489 56.0 3194 187.9 6.5 13 16


Those are Leinarts career numbers which aren't all starts....

Career 11 65.8 130 231 56.3 1250 113.6 5.4 6 8

Those are Croyles, there's not that much of a difference so don't give me this "way more games thing" also Leinart already dealt with a head coach and system change in his tenure...

They're almost in the exact same spot in development with Leinart being slightly ahead and also being slightly more productive.

Yea, 489 attempts versus 231. But NBD.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:16 PM
Career 17 71.2 274 489 56.0 3194 187.9 6.5 13 16


Those are Leinarts career numbers which aren't all starts....

Career 11 65.8 130 231 56.3 1250 113.6 5.4 6 8

Those are Croyles, there's not that much of a difference so don't give me this "way more games thing" also Leinart already dealt with a head coach and system change in his tenure...

They're almost in the exact same spot in development with Leinart being slightly ahead and also being slightly more productive.
And a HELL of a lot more expensive.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:16 PM
BTW, College football is about home state pride, and tradition.

Where are you from Mecca?

That has a ton to do with Matt Leinart doesn't it......

I'm sorry that when I was 10 years old I didn't latch onto the shitty big 8 and it's option football, I was more drawn to the Pac and Keyshawn and I'm still with that team.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:17 PM
Yea, 489 attempts versus 231. But NBD.

I'll do a Chiefs fan here....."But he has no running game or line it's not fair to judge him!"

Tiger's Fan
07-24-2008, 10:17 PM
Weren't they drafted in the same class?

How is Leinart a bust and Croyle not then.......

I've watched Croyle play 6 games in what might be the most retarded offense ever esembled in team history, with a line-up of bums that, for the most part, had no business in the league. I've also watched Leinart suck in quite a few more games played, with considerably more talent on his side of the ball. It's just an observation. BTW, Warner is miles better than Leinart, and im afraid for the Cards, always will be.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:17 PM
That has a ton to do with Matt Leinart doesn't it......

I'm sorry that when I was 10 years old I didn't latch onto the shitty big 8 and it's option football, I was more drawn to the Pac and Keyshawn and I'm still with that team.

Right. It has nothing to do with Lienart.

It was just a ???

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:18 PM
Career 17 71.2 274 489 56.0 3194 187.9 6.5 13 16


Those are Leinarts career numbers which aren't all starts....

Career 11 65.8 130 231 56.3 1250 113.6 5.4 6 8

Those are Croyles, there's not that much of a difference so don't give me this "way more games thing" also Leinart already dealt with a head coach and system change in his tenure...

They're almost in the exact same spot in development with Leinart being slightly ahead and also being slightly more productive.

Matt has had more pro reps than croyle = end of discussion. Also, matt was supposed to be more "pro ready" than Brodie, and brodie is now going through a coaching change too.

you show your colors so easily my friend. I'm not saying brodie is going to be a better QB, but he's not had the chance that matt has, and even in your rose colored glasses you can't admit that.

Whatever.....

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:19 PM
I'll do a Chiefs fan here....."But he has no running game or line it's not fair to judge him!"


that's just an additive to the whole "judging him too early" thingy....

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:20 PM
I'll do a Chiefs fan here....."But he has no running game or line it's not fair to judge him!"

Imitating a Chiefs fan shouldn't be hard for you at this point.

markk
07-24-2008, 10:20 PM
it would be like the Packers dealing away Favre.

well, before he turned into a menstruating woman

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:20 PM
That was out of line i'm sorry.

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:21 PM
Imitating a Chiefs fan should be pretty hard for you at this point.


FYP

Mecca
07-24-2008, 10:22 PM
Imitating a Chiefs fan shouldn't be hard for you at this point.

Just sayin.....

This is an important year for Leinart, I think he'll succeed.

markk
07-24-2008, 10:24 PM
Just sayin.....

This is an important year for Leinart, I think he'll succeed.

if the tards wanted Brodie Croyle they should have just drafted him.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:24 PM
That has a ton to do with Matt Leinart doesn't it......

I'm sorry that when I was 10 years old I didn't latch onto the shitty big 8 and it's option football, I was more drawn to the Pac and Keyshawn and I'm still with that team.

Big 8?

No Pride for your home.

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:24 PM
Just sayin.....

This is an important year for Leinart, I think he'll succeed.

and it could be a very important year, next year even, for Brodie. I don't know if he will or not, but I'm going to watch then decide....

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:25 PM
FYP

Actually he's been doing it for years, so, no, It shouldn't be that hard.

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:26 PM
Actually he's been doing it for years, so, no, It shouldn't be that hard.


I stand corrected....

Valiant
07-24-2008, 10:26 PM
Um the Cards have a damn good young roster.....

Some of the best players at their position in the league are on that team, even though I guess no one wants to notice it.

Yeah I hear that every year..

markk
07-24-2008, 10:26 PM
Yeah I hear that every year..

when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight you ought to have some young talent

Nightfyre
07-24-2008, 10:27 PM
when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight you ought to have some young talent

And some old talent.

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:29 PM
And some old talent.

nice

beach tribe
07-24-2008, 10:31 PM
Big 8?

No Pride for your home.

You're like a Dallas Cowboys fan of college football.

Direckshun
07-24-2008, 10:31 PM
Holy shit. 82 replies in an hour?

Nice work, gents.

Valiant
07-24-2008, 10:34 PM
when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight you ought to have some young talent

I mean on them being good with said talent..


Honestly though if this goes through maybe GB can send Favre there with a pick for Boldin.. They can use the pick they get from the Vikings for tampering.. That is if Goodell does not step in and do some more unethical shit like destroy evidence..

crazycoffey
07-24-2008, 10:36 PM
when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight you ought to have some young talent


those picks are who we thought they were!!!!

Der Flöprer
07-24-2008, 11:42 PM
This is what I'm talking about.......

Matt Leinart and Brodie Croyle were drafted the same year, why is Leinart bordering on bust while "Croyle needs time" ?

Is it because Leinart was a better college player?

Leinart was drafted top ten, Brodie in the 3rd round. It's makes a difference and you know it.

Guru
07-24-2008, 11:47 PM
no

Der Flöprer
07-24-2008, 11:48 PM
those picks are who we thought they were!!!!

LMAO Now that's ****in funny for a joke that jumped the shark a year ago.

ClevelandBronco
07-24-2008, 11:50 PM
My guess: Boldin would like to sign a short term deal now with a team that will feature him so he can get paid big time Randy Moss dollars two years from now.

There no way he can do it with the Chiefs. There's Bowe to contend with and no proven QB to throw to him.

Pissing in the wind.

Mecca
07-24-2008, 11:51 PM
Leinart was drafted top ten, Brodie in the 3rd round. It's makes a difference and you know it.

Actually it means Leinart will get more time than Croyle will...due to the investment.

Leinart will be given this season and maybe another one.

ClevelandBronco
07-24-2008, 11:53 PM
Actually it means Leinart will get more time than Croyle will...due to the investment.

Leinart will be given this season and maybe another one.

I have to agree. Look at Cutler's situation.

JuicesFlowing
07-25-2008, 01:55 AM
Absolutely nothing.

redgoldexpress
07-25-2008, 03:50 PM
I would offer a second and a conditional third round if he has a great year.

DTLB58
07-25-2008, 04:00 PM
I wouldn't trade Tony to get Boldin!

The whole point of getting Boldin would be to then have 3 viable options for Brodie and more for opposing Defenses to worry about.

:cuss:

Dicky McElephant
07-25-2008, 04:23 PM
Holy shit. 82 replies in an hour?

Nice work, gents.

It doesn't count when the thread gets highjacked into a Leinart vs. Croyle argument. :D

DTLB58
07-25-2008, 04:34 PM
It doesn't count when the thread gets highjacked into a Leinart vs. Croyle argument. :D

:clap: No shit. Jeez can't we stay on subject in any of these threads.

But then you get ripped if you start a new thread these days. :D

Ari Chi3fs
07-26-2008, 11:07 PM
Man, I had a dream last night that Boldin was on the Chiefs with Bowe and TG.

Oh man, it would be SOOO awesome, if this could happen.

He was wearing #81... we would be a difficult task for defenses, if this came true.

Please Dear Carl. Make this happen.

J Diddy
07-26-2008, 11:13 PM
you should go straight to hell for wanting to do that to tony

jidar
07-26-2008, 11:29 PM
oh horay. time for our bi monthly trade Tony G thread.
awesome

DaneMcCloud
07-26-2008, 11:29 PM
Sorry Direckshun, I think this is an absolutely horrific idea.

NEVER trade a HOFer, especially a HOFer who's still putting up huge numbers and recently signed a contract to stay with his original team. That would be the ultimate betrayal.

I'd love to have Boldin, but I think anything higher than a 3rd is too much. He's 28 and while he might put up two sensational seasons, it's difficult to predict if Boldin will successful past 30. It's not like he's currently Randy Moss or Terrell Owens.

alanm
07-26-2008, 11:35 PM
when you pick in the top 5 for 20 years straight you ought to have some young talent
Problem with the Cardinals is that their saddled with Bidwell as a owner. Al Davis is 2nd fiddle to him only because of advanced stages of senility. :D

Skip Towne
07-26-2008, 11:41 PM
No to trading Tony G.

KcMizzou
07-26-2008, 11:54 PM
Sorry Direckshun, I think this is an absolutely horrific idea.

NEVER trade a HOFer, especially a HOFer who's still putting up huge numbers and recently signed a contract to stay with his original team. That would be the ultimate betrayal.

I'd love to have Boldin, but I think anything higher than a 3rd is too much. He's 28 and while he might put up two sensational seasons, it's difficult to predict if Boldin will successful past 30. It's not like he's currently Randy Moss or Terrell Owens.What he said.

I might give up a second rounder. But that's all.

crazycoffey
07-27-2008, 12:14 AM
LMAO Now that's ****in funny for a joke that jumped the shark a year ago.


I'm way behind my prime, and the real world....

Ari Chi3fs
07-27-2008, 12:46 AM
in my dream, we DIDNT trade Tony Gonzalez. Just an FYI.

JuicesFlowing
07-27-2008, 02:43 AM
Trading Tony G would be equivalent to the Royals trading George Brett ... not a good idea.

cardken
07-27-2008, 07:30 AM
It was a joke, but your man crush is also injury prone, and looks like he's got happy feet. Didnt hurt that he played for one of the best college offenses in recent memory.
Lest we forget Leinart threw 3 first half TD's against us, in his first NFL start?

SBK
07-27-2008, 07:49 AM
I wouldn't trade Gonzo for near anything. When you have the best player to ever play his position in the history of the league, you let him finish out his career with you.

milkman
07-27-2008, 08:05 AM
Lest we forget Leinart threw 3 first half TD's against us, in his first NFL start?

Our defense could have made Damon Huard look like a HoFer.

StcChief
07-27-2008, 09:17 AM
no way Jose. Tony goes out as a Chief.

luv
07-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Cards probably wouldn't go for it, but would you be open-minded?

What's the highest pick you'd forfeit with Tony G?

None, because I wouldn't give up Tony.

How many seasons have people been talking about the "what if we gave up Tony" idea, anyway?

I guess it could happen, but I definitely don't see it.

In this purely hypothetical situation, why would you have to give up a draft pick? Do you not think Tony is valuble enough by himself?

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 11:09 AM
How about this....Boldin and James for LJ and "Gonzo"? Yeah, I am one of the few that does not like TG. That to me would be an interesting trade. Not that it is realistic or anything.

milkman
07-27-2008, 11:26 AM
How about this....Boldin and James for LJ and "Gonzo"? Yeah, I am one of the few that does not like TG. That to me would be an interesting trade. Not that it is realistic or anything.

I'm not a fan of either Tony or LJ, but that deal is terrible.

TG is on the downside but is still one of the top 3 TEs in the game, and LJ, while while I don't expect him to produce at the level that he's produced previously, is still going to be far more productive than Edge has been the last couple of years.

I might trade Tony for Boldin straight up, but LJ for Edge, hell no.

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 11:36 AM
I'm not a fan of either Tony or LJ, but that deal is terrible.

TG is on the downside but is still one of the top 3 TEs in the game, and LJ, while while I don't expect him to produce at the level that he's produced previously, is still going to be far more productive than Edge has been the last couple of years.

I might trade Tony for Boldin straight up, but LJ for Edge, hell no.

First of all, I don't have any more faith in LJ than I do in James. I might tend to believe that Edge can still actually be better. As far as Gonzo for Boldin, that would be a steal for the Chiefs. Maybe the RB deal is a slight downgrade, but Boldin is a damn good WR.

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 11:39 AM
Also, I would take Gates, Witten, Cooley and Winslow over TG. Not a top 3 TE to me. And I freakin hate Winslow!

RedNeckRaider
07-27-2008, 11:40 AM
I'm not a fan of either Tony or LJ,

I understand why you would not like LJ but what do you have against Tony?

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-27-2008, 11:46 AM
Also, I would take Gates, Witten, Cooley and Winslow over TG. Not a top 3 TE to me. And I freakin hate Winslow!

So, Tony isn't one of the top 3 Tight Ends in the league??? :bong:

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 11:50 AM
COOLEY AND WINSLOW OVER TONY? ARE YOU INSANE?

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 11:52 AM
gates and witten are up there with him but the other two, cooley? i keep thinking and cant come up with ANYTHING that would put cooley up there. winslow had to have ANOTHER surgery this off season. maybe you just like soldiers.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 11:55 AM
cooley's career stats 4 years 231 rec 27 tds 2608 yards man thats like 2 years for TG

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-27-2008, 11:59 AM
cooley's career stats 4 years 231 rec 27 tds 2608 yards man thats like 2 years for TG

The other guy must be a troll. Can't imagine a Chief fan would think that Gonzo isn't one of or the best in the biz.

milkman
07-27-2008, 12:07 PM
I understand why you would not like LJ but what do you have against Tony?


I've always thought that he was a little overrated by Chiefs fans.

Is he one of the best in the game?
Yes.

Is he the best ever?
IMO, no.

Did he revolutionize the position?
Not by a long shot.

RedNeckRaider
07-27-2008, 12:13 PM
I've always thought that he was a little overrated by Chiefs fans.

Is he one of the best in the game?
Yes.

Is he the best ever?
IMO, no.

Did he revolutionize the position?
Not by a long shot.

I think he will be in the conversations of alltime when he retires. He has never been a problem off the field. That is why I asked. I agree with you on him.

milkman
07-27-2008, 12:17 PM
I think he will be in the conversations of alltime when he retires. He has never been a problem off the field. That is why I asked. I agree with you on him.

He should be in the conversation, but the conversation shouldn't end with him.

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 12:38 PM
COOLEY AND WINSLOW OVER TONY? ARE YOU INSANE?

As I said, I hate Winslow, but this season he will prolly have the best stats of all TE's (glorified WR in his case). Cooley is a redzone TD machine. He is also way younger and improving still, so yeah, they both rate above TG to me.

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 12:49 PM
cooley's career stats 4 years 231 rec 27 tds 2608 yards man thats like 2 years for TG

Gonzo's first four years were 3041 yds, 24 TD's. Yeah he beats Cooley in yardage in the first 4, but Cooley is going to be good for awhile. We are talking about NOW.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 01:08 PM
I'm not a fan of either Tony or LJ, but that deal is terrible.

TG is on the downside but is still one of the top 3 TEs in the game, and LJ, while while I don't expect him to produce at the level that he's produced previously, is still going to be far more productive than Edge has been the last couple of years.

I might trade Tony for Boldin straight up, but LJ for Edge, hell no.

How is Tony G on his downside when he just played better last year (all around) than he ever has in his entire career?

I know age suggests who should be on his downside, but he has certainly showed zero signs of it...so I won't say he's on his downside until we see something that suggests it...

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 01:12 PM
I've always thought that he was a little overrated by Chiefs fans.

Is he one of the best in the game?
Yes.

Is he the best ever?
IMO, no.

Did he revolutionize the position?
Not by a long shot.

Hilarious!

Did you watch the way he played the last few years and the way he bails out Huard with his amazing catches?

The true crime is the fact Tony is hidden in Kansas City...if he played for Dallas or New York EVERYONE would, without a question, consider him the best TE to ever grace the game...

Antonio Gates wouldn't be getting a higher Madden rating...that's for sure.

Tony Gonzalez is so good, and he is getting better with age, that it is purely INSANE for a "Chiefs" fan to consider him to be overrated by Chiefs fans...

You're just the devil's advocate, Milkman...and you know it.

Rausch
07-27-2008, 01:49 PM
I've always thought that he was a little overrated by Chiefs fans.

Is he one of the best in the game?
Yes.

Is he the best ever?
IMO, no.

Did he revolutionize the position?
Not by a long shot.

Is he the most talented TE ever?

No.

When he retires will he be the most productive TE ever?

Yes.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 02:12 PM
Is he the most talented TE ever?

No.

When he retires will he be the most productive TE ever?

Yes.

I just wish someone could tell me who is more talented than Tony Gonzalez...

Kellen Winslow before the motorcycle accident? Possibly...

Tony has size, speed, great body control, a great mindset, he makes big plays...he blocks...he's team first...

I guess I just don't see how people think Antonio Gates is a better tight end than Tony Gonzalez...is he more of a focal point in that loaded San Diego offense? Sure...but I don't see him making spectacular play after play after play...the only reason Huard was somewhat successful the last two seasons in KC is because he literally relied on TG to bail him out again and again...I never once considered Huard to be a good QB...not one time...I simply liked the way he put it up to his playmakers to make plays...he'd throw it to TG in triple coverage and TG would make the play more often than not...

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 02:14 PM
our offense last year, when we scored points (which wasn't often)...was either Tony or Bowe making spectacular plays...Tony didn't have an LT or any sort of a running game to allow him to run free or be covered by a LB...every time Huard was in the game the opposing team had TG blanketed with defenders...if I was a coordinator for an opposing team I would have had TG triple covered every down...Huard knew where he was throwing the ball before he even took the snap...

Rausch
07-27-2008, 02:17 PM
I just wish someone could tell me who is more talented than Tony Gonzalez...

Sharpe, Winslow Sr., Gates.

I guess I just don't see how people think Antonio Gates is a better tight end than Tony Gonzalez...

He's not. He's got better physical gifts but he's not a better TE.

Hell, Mike Vick might have been the most talented player to ever suit up but he still wasn't consistent or even good IMHO.

A great athlete does not always a great football player make.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
Gonzo's first four years were 3041 yds, 24 TD's. Yeah he beats Cooley in yardage in the first 4, but Cooley is going to be good for awhile. We are talking about NOW.

OK NOW TG's LAST 4 Years 352 catches, 4235 yards,19 tds so NOW TG clowns cooley in everything but td catches and you can make the case that LJ hurt him on that because wash has NO ONE with 20 or more TDS in ANY of those years

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 03:30 PM
THAT'S TALKING ABOUT NOW

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 03:31 PM
also someone said he didnt revolutionize the positon what ive got for them is: Who started the whole power forward to TE trend that EVERY TEAM in the nfl is looking for?
answer is TG

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 03:45 PM
I just wish someone could tell me who is more talented than Tony Gonzalez...

Kellen Winslow before the motorcycle accident? Possibly...

Tony has size, speed, great body control, a great mindset, he makes big plays...he blocks...he's team first...

I guess I just don't see how people think Antonio Gates is a better tight end than Tony Gonzalez...is he more of a focal point in that loaded San Diego offense? Sure...but I don't see him making spectacular play after play after play...the only reason Huard was somewhat successful the last two seasons in KC is because he literally relied on TG to bail him out again and again...I never once considered Huard to be a good QB...not one time...I simply liked the way he put it up to his playmakers to make plays...he'd throw it to TG in triple coverage and TG would make the play more often than not...

Gates more of a focal point? I guess what they do is more obvious than LJ to the left, LJ to the right, Gonzo over the middle, punt. Gates is way better.

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:07 PM
also someone said he didnt revolutionize the positon what ive got for them is: Who started the whole power forward to TE trend that EVERY TEAM in the nfl is looking for?
answer is TG

This Tony debate is an old one that I've been through before, so I won't go through it all again.

However, the fact that Tony played power forward, and that others have followed since has nothing to do with revolutionizing the TE position.

If you want to make the argument that it has revolutionized how scouts and talent evaluators go about evaluating a prospect's potential, then I won't argue that.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:13 PM
OK ILL GIVE you that but if not for TG's success then would gates even gotten a chance? if you give scouts and talent evaluators chances to look at other types of people then didnt you revolutionize the position?

Consistent1
07-27-2008, 04:15 PM
This Tony debate is an old one that I've been through before, so I won't go through it all again.

However, the fact that Tony played power forward, and that others have followed since has nothing to do with revolutionizing the TE position.

If you want to make the argument that it has revolutionized how scouts and talent evaluators go about evaluating a prospect's potential, then I won't argue that.

I think you are sensible about it from what I have seen. If you could get Cooley for TG right now, would you take it? The Skins would not be dumb enough to do it, but just for kicks. He can be used the same way and much younger. I would go for Boldin for sure straight up.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 04:15 PM
No offense or anything but a pass catching TE isn't rare anymore, it's much the norm, Tony Gonzalez isn't the rare player he was anymore now numerous teams have them and drafted them later than the 1st round.

When he was drafted he was rare, now he's not.....

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:17 PM
not saying hes rare anymore, just still one of the top three at his position

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:17 PM
also cooley was(might still be listed as a hb)

Mecca
07-27-2008, 04:19 PM
not saying hes rare anymore, just still one of the top three at his position

If you were going to give me 3 to pick he wouldn't be in it just because he's older and doesn't have as many years left...not saying he's any worse though.

And yes I think a top flight WR is more valuable than a TE and harder to find.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:22 PM
wr're talking about now and this year and maybe next hes top 3

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:26 PM
OK ILL GIVE you that but if not for TG's success then would gates even gotten a chance? if you give scouts and talent evaluators chances to look at other types of people then didnt you revolutionize the position?

You are talking about how scouts find talent.

I am talking about how the position itself has evolved.

Before John Mackey, TEs were viewed as extra O-Linemen who occassinally caught passes.

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:28 PM
I think you are sensible about it from what I have seen. If you could get Cooley for TG right now, would you take it? The Skins would not be dumb enough to do it, but just for kicks. He can be used the same way and much younger. I would go for Boldin for sure straight up.

I'm not as high on Cooley as you are.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:28 PM
IT STILL CHANGES THE POSITION BECAUSE IT PUTS PEOPLE THERE WHO WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE. NOT JUST ABOUT SCOUTS BUT THE ACTUAL PLAYERS MAY NOT OF EVEN CONSIDERED IT

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:30 PM
IT STILL CHANGES THE POSITION BECAUSE IT PUTS PEOPLE THERE WHO WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE. NOT JUST ABOUT SCOUTS BUT THE ACTUAL PLAYERS MAY NOT OF EVEN CONSIDERED IT

We're never going to agree on this, and yelling isn't going to change that.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:30 PM
and those guys play the position differently than the guys before them . its an evolutionary pattern

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:31 PM
actually i have to log in in caps and sometimes forget

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 04:32 PM
Gates more of a focal point? I guess what they do is more obvious than LJ to the left, LJ to the right, Gonzo over the middle, punt. Gates is way better.

The fact that the KC offense is more predictable than SD would make Tony's numbers more impressive not less. Yes Tony is a focal point but when everyone knows it, especially after LJ got hurt, wouldn't it be harder for TG not easier?

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:33 PM
No offense or anything but a pass catching TE isn't rare anymore, it's much the norm, Tony Gonzalez isn't the rare player he was anymore now numerous teams have them and drafted them later than the 1st round.

When he was drafted he was rare, now he's not.....

If Tony G was 23 with this skill set and coming out of college, he'd be a top 10 pick...you agree?

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:34 PM
Further, I think the only reason that teams have started to look at BB players more has to do with the fact that the money is such now that they can get better athletes to play than they were able to before the free agency era.

In hoops you could play for longer and make more money over a period of time than you could in football, where the average career was about 4 to 5 years, and the money wasn't nearly on the level it is now.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:34 PM
youre comparing mackey to TG? if thats your comparison then hell yeah TG has revolutioized the position mackey had only 331 career recs. thats only 4 years for TG

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:34 PM
And yes I think a top flight WR is more valuable than a TE and harder to find.

Absolutely.

A top flight WR is much harder to find...but I don't think we'd win any more or less games if we swapped Tony Gonzalez for Anquan Boldin...they'd both have similar effects to the offense.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:35 PM
The fact that the KC offense is more predictable than SD would make Tony's numbers more impressive not less. Yes Tony is a focal point but when everyone knows it, especially after LJ got hurt, wouldn't it be harder for TG not easier?

That's what I'm saying...

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:37 PM
Further, I think the only reason that teams have started to look at BB players more has to do with the fact that the money is such now that they can get better athletes to play than they were able to before the free agency era.

In hoops you could play for longer and make more money over a period of time than you could in football, where the average career was about 4 to 5 years, and the money wasn't nearly on the level it is now.

If you could make as much money playing football as you could in the NBA...lets say you could make more money just so I can prove a point...

If Kobe Bryant could make 300M playing football and only 30M playing basketball...he'd choose football...but I'm telling you RIGHT now...those superstars like Kobe and LeBron (#2 Mr. Football in Cleveland) and Tracy McGrady...the super freakish athletes who can jump through the roof and run 4.5 40s...even Chris Paul and those 6'2" guys...

they would dominate the NFL at WR...every one of them...Randy Moss would be ORDINARY...

If LeBron concentrated on being a WR...he'd be better than Jerry Rice...the NFL wouldn't know what to do...give those NBA guys one year to learn the WR position and 95% of current NFL WR's would be out of a job.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:37 PM
Further, I think the only reason that teams have started to look at BB players more has to do with the fact that the money is such now that they can get better athletes to play than they were able to before the free agency era.

In hoops you could play for longer and make more money over a period of time than you could in football, where the average career was about 4 to 5 years, and the money wasn't nearly on the level it is now.

but in bb the contracts are GUARANTEED no chance to get cut and lose out

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:41 PM
youre comparing mackey to TG? if thats your comparison then hell yeah TG has revolutioized the position mackey had only 331 career recs. thats only 4 years for TG

Different eras.

In his career, Johnny Unitas was considered pass happy, and he only had two seasons in which he attempted more than 400 passes.

Peyton Manning has only had two seasons in which he's attempted fewer than 500 passes.

Mackey was the first to be considered a receiving threat.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:43 PM
but in bb the contracts are GUARANTEED no chance to get cut and lose out

that's why America's best athletes (excluding baseball because that's a whole different beast) choose basketball over football...

A superstar non QB playing in the NFL will make, TOPS, 40M in contracts...maybe more if they are like LT or a WR who plays 15 years...

LeBron could be a billionaire when it is all said and done...

and LeBron could play in the NFL, easily...6'8" HUGE vertical, strong as hell...and probably runs a pretty fast 40...

you'd have to constantly double or triple team the guy...look at the Randy Moss effect...double that because Randy is not even half the athlete of LeBron...

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:43 PM
ok then whats the difference with tg being known as the first pf to te superstar? same difference

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:43 PM
If you could make as much money playing football as you could in the NBA...lets say you could make more money just so I can prove a point...

If Kobe Bryant could make 300M playing football and only 30M playing basketball...he'd choose football...but I'm telling you RIGHT now...those superstars like Kobe and LeBron (#2 Mr. Football in Cleveland) and Tracy McGrady...the super freakish athletes who can jump through the roof and run 4.5 40s...even Chris Paul and those 6'2" guys...

they would dominate the NFL at WR...every one of them...Randy Moss would be ORDINARY...

If LeBron concentrated on being a WR...he'd be better than Jerry Rice...the NFL wouldn't know what to do...give those NBA guys one year to learn the WR position and 95% of current NFL WR's would be out of a job.

I agree.

In Tony's case, if he didn't have football, he could have made good money playing in Europe for a few years.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:44 PM
i'm right there with you hootie read this whole strand and you'll get where im at

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 04:44 PM
To me it really doesn't matter if TG is the best TE ever or if he is 3rd. He is a Chief player who is a HOF lock and he has only played for KC and it needs to stay that way.

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:44 PM
ok then whats the difference with tg being known as the first pf to te superstar? same difference

What?

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:45 PM
I agree.

In Tony's case, if he didn't have football, he could have made good money playing in Europe for a few years.

EUROPE???????? Come on you are obviously a TONY GONZALEZ HATER

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 04:47 PM
EUROPE???????? Come on you are obviously a TONY GONZALES HATER

TG was not an NBA talent player or he would have went to BB instead off football. He will tell you that.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 04:47 PM
Gonzalez.




And no, I wouldn't do the deal.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:48 PM
mackey =1st pass threat
gonzales=1st POWER FORWARD TO TIGHT END SUPERSTAR
if noone had given mackey the chance to catch the ball he wouldnt have and it mightve stayed that way
if noone had looked at the power forward to be a tight end it mightve stayed that way

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:49 PM
EUROPE???????? Come on you are obviously a TONY GONZALES HATER

I'm saying before the money in the NFL started to make it a financial option, marginal BB players would try out for the NBA, and when they didn't make it, they would go to Europe to earn a decent salary playing hoops rather than explore football options.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:49 PM
do you think that TG couldnt have been as good as some of the nba bigs of today?

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:50 PM
EUROPE???????? Come on you are obviously a TONY GONZALES HATER

He's talking about basketball...Tony G was pretty good at Cal...not NBA material but he could have made a couple of million playing overseas...

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:51 PM
mackey =1st pass threat
gonzales=1st POWER FORWARD TO TIGHT END SUPERSTAR
if noone had given mackey the chance to catch the ball he wouldnt have and it mightve stayed that way
if noone had looked at the power forward to be a tight end it mightve stayed that way

I highly doubt that.

Tony came along at just the right time, but someone else would have evntually been that first player.

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:52 PM
do you think that TG couldnt have been as good as some of the nba bigs of today?

Tony, at best, would be the last guy off the bench on the worst team in the league.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:52 PM
TG was not an NBA talent player or he would have went to BB instead off football. He will tell you that.

Absolutely...that's a no brainer...easier on the body...12th man still makes more money than a decent football player...

Tony Gonzalez, hall of fame lock, will probably end up making what...$30M in NFL contracts TOTAL? If that...

Sure, a lot of money...but he's a hall of fame lock...

Brian Cardinal, NBA stiff, when he finishes out his contract he will have already made $40+M dollars...

and he's Brian friggin' Cardinal...

Who? I know...Brian Cardinal.

That's why these idiots in the NFL that don't realize they have a life span of a 3 year career always go broke because they spend it like it won't stop and it does stop.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:53 PM
you can say that but how do you know maybe mackey was in the same boat.

look im just saying that the tight end position is thought about differently because of TG and thats what i would call revolutionary

Bowser
07-27-2008, 04:56 PM
Absolutely...that's a no brainer...easier on the body...12th man still makes more money than a decent football player...

Tony Gonzalez, hall of fame lock, will probably end up making what...$30M in NFL contracts TOTAL? If that...

Sure, a lot of money...but he's a hall of fame lock...

Brian Cardinal, NBA stiff, when he finishes out his contract he will have already made $40+M dollars...

and he's Brian friggin' Cardinal...

Who? I know...Brian Cardinal.

That's why these idiots in the NFL that don't realize they have a life span of a 3 year career always go broke because they spend it like it won't stop and it does stop.

The NBA cap is retarded. I don't which is worse cap wise, the NBA or MLB.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:56 PM
Personally, as an avid Chiefs fan and an avid Tony Gonzalez fan...I don't give two shits if he revolutionized anything...

I know he used to go in the 1st round of FFL drafts because there was no one like Tony Gonzalez for a few years...and I know he doesn't anymore because there are 10 TE's that put up comparable numbers and score more touchdowns...

but watching him play every year of his career...every game...every quarter...he was never better than he was last year...and people say he's on the downside?! Ha! He was SIMPLY the ONLY bright spot of our team last year (minus Jared Allen and D Bowe)...he was so outstanding I would brag on the other message board I am on (not Chiefs related) that the rest of the NFL fans are missing out on a truly special talent because no one gives two shits about the Chiefs other than Chiefs fans...

Seriously. I am going to miss Tony Gonzalez when he hangs them up...

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:57 PM
so TG was worse than a brian cardinal?
highly doubtful

Mecca
07-27-2008, 04:58 PM
so TG was worse than a brian cardinal?
highly doubtful

Um Tony Gonzalez as a basketball player would have been an undrafted undersized power forward.

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:58 PM
you can say that but how do you know maybe mackey was in the same boat.

look im just saying that the tight end position is thought about differently because of TG and thats what i would call revolutionary

And I'm saying that because of Mackey, teams started to look for big, athletic players with some speed who could be downfield threats and catch the ball consistently, while bringing that extra O-Lineman blocking ability to the table.

That's exactly what Tony is.
The fact that he was a credible college hoops player was just confirmation of his athleticism.

He fit the profile of the type of player that teams were looking for.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 04:59 PM
The NBA cap is retarded. I don't which is worse cap wise, the NBA or MLB.

They make a ton of money and only have 15 man rosters...the product (the players) are going to want their fare share of the profit..it makes sense.

The NBA, sadly enough, is probably the best set up salary structure in sports...

Sure, GM's give out some DUMB BAD contracts (Dampier over Nash, Brian Cardinal, Theo Ratliff, etc...) but they have a rookie pay scale, a cap, the ability for teams to sign their own players...ability for teams to trade as long as the cap numbers are within 20%, etc...

The NFL is great for owners, but it gives players ZERO leverage...every year we here about so and so that refuses to report won't ever play for said team again blah blah blah and they always cave because they have to...

and in baseball teams like NYY who spend 300M every year really leaves a sour taste in my mouth, since baseball used to be my favorite sport.

milkman
07-27-2008, 04:59 PM
Personally, as an avid Chiefs fan and an avid Tony Gonzalez fan...I don't give two shits if he revolutionized anything...

I know he used to go in the 1st round of FFL drafts because there was no one like Tony Gonzalez for a few years...and I know he doesn't anymore because there are 10 TE's that put up comparable numbers and score more touchdowns...

but watching him play every year of his career...every game...every quarter...he was never better than he was last year...and people say he's on the downside?! Ha! He was SIMPLY the ONLY bright spot of our team last year (minus Jared Allen and D Bowe)...he was so outstanding I would brag on the other message board I am on (not Chiefs related) that the rest of the NFL fans are missing out on a truly special talent because no one gives two shits about the Chiefs other than Chiefs fans...

Seriously. I am going to miss Tony Gonzalez when he hangs them up...

I say he's on the downside because of age, not because he's shown any decline in his ability.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 04:59 PM
so what youre saying is that mackey revolutionized SCOUTING?

LiL stumppy
07-27-2008, 05:00 PM
I would have no problem if TG wanted it. I think it would be a dick move if he didn't.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:01 PM
you can say that but how do you know maybe mackey was in the same boat.

look im just saying that the tight end position is thought about differently because of TG and thats what i would call revolutionary

I don't know if he was revolutionary but I will say he definatley revitalized the position. A lot of the "new" TE's came after him and there weren't many big name guys other than Sharpe at the time.

In TG's second year you had him and Sharpe as real weapons.I may be missing a player but really, who else do you remember from the late 90's?

Now you have TG, Gates, Heap, Shockey, Winslow, Cooley, and Whitten that all make a real impact.

And of all of those players in their prime I would take TG hands down.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:01 PM
I would have no problem if TG wanted it. I think it would be a dick move if he didn't.

Let me clarify: This ^ is my position. If Gonzalez wants to be traded to the Cardinals, or anyone for that matter, then trade him. Just be sure that we get an impact player in return.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:02 PM
so TG was worse than a brian cardinal?
highly doubtful

he is...

Cardinal, before his knee injuries (which were bound to happen), was a 90% free throw shooter, a 50% from the floor shooter, a 40% 3 point shooter who had unbelievable energy...and he still wasn't really ever anything more than an 8th man spark...

Tony Gonzalez, and I've stood right next to him, is 6'4"...he wouldn't have been drafted in the 3rd round (if it existed)...maybe 5th or 6th...he was solid at Cal but was never anything more than a role player...and that was in college...

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:02 PM
I don't know if he was revolutionary but I will say he definatley revitalized the position. A lot of the "new" TE's came after him and there weren't many big name guys other than Sharpe at the time.

In TG's second year you had him and Sharpe as real weapons.I may be missing a player but really, who else do you remember from the late 90's?

Now you have TG, Gates, Heap, Shockey, Winslow, Cooley, and Whitten that all make a real impact.

And of all of those players in their prime I would take TG hands down.

Ben Coates...

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:03 PM
Let me clarify: This ^ is my position. If Gonzalez wants to be traded to the Cardinals, or anyone for that matter, then trade him. Just be sure that we get an impact player in return.

And why in the hell would he want go to AZ? Like they have a real chance to win the SB. Case closed.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:04 PM
I say he's on the downside because of age, not because he's shown any decline in his ability.

and people have said that for the last few years...

I'll believe he's on a downside when I see him start slipping...who knows, maybe he's an exception to the rule? He should have already been going on that downside by now...

milkman
07-27-2008, 05:05 PM
so what youre saying is that mackey revolutionized SCOUTING?

No.
I'm saying that what Mackey did on the field changed the perception of the TE position.

He changed the profile.

He changed the way the position was played.

Because of him, TEs are thought of as receivers.
Before him, TEs were viewed as another O-Lineman who was eligible to receive.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:06 PM
I still think if you had a choice you should take the pro bowl WR over the pro bowl TE 99.9% of the time, WR's are more valuable in my view.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 05:06 PM
youve also said basically that TG changed the profile of a player at that position

milkman
07-27-2008, 05:06 PM
I don't know if he was revolutionary but I will say he definatley revitalized the position. A lot of the "new" TE's came after him and there weren't many big name guys other than Sharpe at the time.

In TG's second year you had him and Sharpe as real weapons.I may be missing a player but really, who else do you remember from the late 90's?

Now you have TG, Gates, Heap, Shockey, Winslow, Cooley, and Whitten that all make a real impact.

And of all of those players in their prime I would take TG hands down.

Revitalized.

That is perfect.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:06 PM
Ben Coates...

Figured I missed at least one. I had a buddy who was a big NE fan and we used to talk about Coates a lot. We had Kieth Cash at that time. I think he had a huge catch against Denver on Monday night when Joe M was QB.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:09 PM
To show you how things have changed, when Gonzalez was drafted he was a top 15 pick, today I don't even think you need to use a 1st round pick to get a very productive TE.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:12 PM
I still think if you had a choice you should take the pro bowl WR over the pro bowl TE 99.9% of the time, WR's are more valuable in my view.

If you're talking about TRADE value...of course...who's going to let a pro bowl Larry Fitz go for anything less than two 1sts...assuming Fitz and Tony G were the same age...you'd be hard pressed to get more than a 2nd and 5th for Tony G (a la Shockey)...

More valuable, yes...more valuable to an offense...meh.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:13 PM
I think the offense would be better with Boldin and Bowe than Gonzalez and Bowe...

milkman
07-27-2008, 05:15 PM
youve also said basically that TG changed the profile of a player at that position

Where did I say that?

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:15 PM
The NBA cap is retarded. I don't which is worse cap wise, the NBA or MLB.

I am guessing you mean because of the high dollar value.

I think the NBA cap is actually better than the NFL due to the fact that draft picks have slotted salaries, there is no haggling at all which makes sense to me. They also have a contract $ per year cap max which I think is smart and players that resign with their current teams can make more than going to a new team.

When was the last NBA hold out that you heard of?

I think the NFL could use some of the NBA system. The big differene is in the NBA, each player has a like value potential unlike the NFL where a good fullback would never be worth as much as a good QB for example. I would like to see a posiiton by position max and have a higher salary potential for players who stay with their original team.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:15 PM
To show you how things have changed, when Gonzalez was drafted he was a top 15 pick, today I don't even think you need to use a 1st round pick to get a very productive TE.

Ok...

but a Tony Gonzalez, with his current skill set, at age 23 would be a top 10 pick...just like Vernon Davis.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:17 PM
Ok...

but a Tony Gonzalez, with his current skill set, at age 23 would be a top 10 pick...just like Vernon Davis.

Probably well I dunno, I don't think Tony ever ran a 4.3 something in a 40 and that was what got Davis picked that high..

Either way I would tell you that using a top 10 pick on a TE isn't very smart like I don't think interior OL or regular LB's should be picked overly high either.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:17 PM
Ok...

but a Tony Gonzalez, with his current skill set, at age 23 would be a top 10 pick...just like Vernon Davis.

Oh yea. If a team knew they were going to get a HOF player I am pretty sure he would be a top 5 pick at the least no matter the position.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:18 PM
I am guessing you mean because of the high dollar value.

I think the NBA cap is actually better than the NFL due to the fact that draft picks have slotted salaries, there is no haggling at all which makes sense to me. They also have a contract $ per year cap max which I think is smart and players that resign with their current teams can make more than going to a new team.

When was the last NBA hold out that you heard of?

I think the NFL could use some of the NBA system. The big differene is in the NBA, each player has a like value potential unlike the NFL where a good fullback would never be worth as much as a good QB for example. I would like to see a posiiton by position max and have a higher salary potential for players who stay with their original team.

Good post. I do agree that the rookie cap the NBA uses makes a ton more sense than what the NFL uses. Give the rooks a three year max contract for X amount, based on their draft position, or something.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:19 PM
I do however think sometimes this fan base has gotten caught up in things because of the players that have been here, in positional value..

Sure Shields, Gonzalez, Holmes, LJ and Richardson are/were great players here but as a general rule they play positions that aren't as valued as others.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:19 PM
I think the offense would be better with Boldin and Bowe than Gonzalez and Bowe...

On paper, I agree. But Gonzalez is going to be Brodie's security blanket this year. I just hope Tony doesn't get killed trying to go for high passes over the middle.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:21 PM
Good post. I do agree that the rookie cap the NBA uses makes a ton more sense than what the NFL uses. Give the rooks a three year max contract for X amount, based on their draft position, or something.

Yeah but most NFL players only get 1 contract...

You can't do incentive laced contracts either because then every player will be a me, me, me, me player...

It's just a lose/lose...

They should just make it so NO rookie can be in the top 10 highest paid player in their position group...that's the only logical thing IMO.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:21 PM
I do however think sometimes this fan base has gotten caught up in things because of the players that have been here, in positional value..

Sure Shields, Gonzalez, Holmes, LJ and Richardson are/were great players here but as a general rule they play positions that aren't as valued as others.


I'll argue all day that it was a major ****up that the Chiefs let Richardson walk for pennies (essentially). They ended up being worse off for letting him go.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:21 PM
On paper, I agree. But Gonzalez is going to be Brodie's security blanket this year. I just hope Tony doesn't get killed trying to go for high passes over the middle.

Have you seen Boldin? He's huge, he's also the best blocking WR in the league, put some more muscle and polish on Bowe and that's Boldin.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:22 PM
Yeah but most NFL players only get 1 contract...

You can't do incentive laced contracts either because then every player will be a me, me, me, me player...

It's just a lose/lose...

They should just make it so NO rookie can be in the top 10 highest paid player in their position group...that's the only logical thing IMO.

Agreed. I'm all for capatalism and getting all you can when you can, but the signing bonuses that Jake Long and Matt Ryan received are just a horrifically bad idea, money wise..

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:23 PM
Have you seen Boldin? He's huge, he's also the best blocking WR in the league, put some more muscle and polish on Bowe and that's Boldin.

Bowe and Boldin would be sick...

the Boldin has ZERO leverage over the Cardinals and will be a Cardinal for as long as the Cardinals want him to be a Cardinal...

Remember when LJ was never going to play another down in KC?

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:23 PM
Unless the o-line blocks better then Boldin and Bowe wouldn't be a better combo. TG is a better option because he is better middle option than either Bowe or Blodin.

TG is mismatch for linebackers and thats what helps in the middle to short passing game which is what you need when your o-line can't block. He also will help more in the running game which is what we need to open the passing game.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:24 PM
I'll argue all day that it was a major ****up that the Chiefs let Richardson walk for pennies (essentially). They ended up being worse off for letting him go.

I agree to that 1,000%

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:25 PM
I mostly just think Boldin is posturing knowing he has to say something to get paid when he has another highly paid WR on his own team....

Now for the argument, you'd be better off with the WR's know why? No team would ever show you 8 in the box, teams fear getting beat deep, they think ok if we bring them up with Gonzalez and they throw he might beat us for 15 but he won't beat us for 75.

Having 2 WR's that are feared helps the run game more than any blocking would.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:26 PM
Have you seen Boldin? He's huge, he's also the best blocking WR in the league, put some more muscle and polish on Bowe and that's Boldin.

Let's flip the perspective - Carl is having his mouthpieces write these columns on kcchiefs.com about how nobody can badmouth Carl since he got all the picks in camp on time, for all intents and purposes. He obviously has a problem with being thought of in a negative light. Trading Gonzalez would enrage the majority of Chiefs fans, especially if we pull another 4-12 season. I'm not saying we shouldn't give up Tony and a third for Boldin, but I am saying that there is no way Carl has it in him to pull it off.

And no, I didn't realize Boldin was such a beast.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:27 PM
I mostly just think Boldin is posturing knowing he has to say something to get paid when he has another highly paid WR on his own team....

Now for the argument, you'd be better off with the WR's know why? No team would ever show you 8 in the box, teams fear getting beat deep, they think ok if we bring them up with Gonzalez and they throw he might beat us for 15 but he won't beat us for 75.

Having 2 WR's that are feared helps the run game more than any blocking would.

Only if the line can block which we don't know yet.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 05:27 PM
And I'm saying that because of Mackey, teams started to look for big, athletic players with some speed who could be downfield threats and catch the ball consistently, while bringing that extra O-Lineman blocking ability to the table.

That's exactly what Tony is.
The fact that he was a credible college hoops player was just confirmation of his athleticism.

He fit the profile of the type of player that teams were looking for.

so basically mackey changed the wats teams SCOUT tight ends?
which is essentially the profile of a position

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:29 PM
And bottom line, I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE TG IN ANOTHER UNIFORM.

Even if it is the difference between us going 4-12 or 9-7 next year.

Boldin will not make us an instant SB contender and it won't make TG a SB contender going to AZ.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:29 PM
I just think this is a dumb thread...Tony Gonzalez isn't going to be traded...how often do you see player swaps in the NFL? If a player is traded, 90% of the time it is for a draft pick...not another star player.

JASONSAUTO
07-27-2008, 05:30 PM
And bottom line, I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE TG IN ANOTHER UNIFORM.

Even if it is the difference between us going 4-12 or 9-7 next year.

Boldin will not make us an instant SB contender and it won't make TG a SB contender going to AZ.

AGREED

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:31 PM
In order to ever sniff having a WR duo like that it would require us using a top 5 pick on a WR next year..which I'm actually ok with I think WR is one the most valuable positions on a team.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:31 PM
I just think this is a dumb thread...Tony Gonzalez isn't going to be traded...how often do you see player swaps in the NFL? If a player is traded, 90% of the time it is for a draft pick...not another star player.

Well it's something to talk about.....would you rather talk about how guys look in their shorts at camp?

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:33 PM
Well it's something to talk about.....would you rather talk about how guys look in their shorts at camp?

Yes.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:33 PM
I just think this is a dumb thread...Tony Gonzalez isn't going to be traded...how often do you see player swaps in the NFL? If a player is traded, 90% of the time it is for a draft pick...not another star player.

Agreed. The concept is crazy because why would TG change teams to go to AZ?

If he was going to go to NE or Dallas I could see why. It makes no sense to ruin his run in KC to go to another shitty team.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:34 PM
In order to ever sniff having a WR duo like that it would require us using a top 5 pick on a WR next year..which I'm actually ok with I think WR is one the most valuable positions on a team.

Can you imagine Crabtree lining up opposite of Bowe?

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:35 PM
Can you imagine Crabtree lining up opposite of Bowe?

That's what I was referring to.

Marcellus
07-27-2008, 05:35 PM
Well it's something to talk about.....would you rather talk about how guys look in their shorts at camp?

I guess not since I have about 8 post on this thread.:)

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:36 PM
Ok for the argument of what I said earlier what do you guys think are the most valued positions on a team? The first 3 should be easy after that it's debatable.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:36 PM
I still think the Chiefs are going to surprise people this year....8 or 9 wins.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:37 PM
Ok for the argument of what I said earlier what do you guys think are the most valued positions on a team? The first 3 should be easy after that it's debatable.

1. QB
2. LT
3. DT
4. MLB
5. WR

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:37 PM
Ok for the argument of what I said earlier what do you guys think are the most valued positions on a team? The first 3 should be easy after that it's debatable.

In order, from 1-22? Or top 5?

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:37 PM
I still think the Chiefs are going to surprise people this year....8 or 9 wins.

Now I'm not being an asshole here, just show me who they're gonna beat and how you think that, when you start running the roster even if you feel guys will step up there are still a ton of holes.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Now I'm not being an asshole here, just show me who they're gonna beat and how you think that, when you start running the roster even if you feel guys will step up there are still a ton of holes.

I'm optimistic.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:38 PM
In order, from 1-22? Or top 5?

You can do as many as you want......I disagree with Hooties list...

I think it goes..

QB
DE
LT
WR
DT

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:39 PM
1. QB
2. LT
3. DT
4. MLB
5. WR

I'd flip and flop QB and LT. And depending on scheme, you could throw a safety in there, since they call out signals in the defensive backfield.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm optimistic.

That's going past optimism, I think they'll show some good signs and some guys will show they are pieces I just don't think it'll really translate in the win column yet.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:40 PM
I'd flip and flop QB and LT. And depending on scheme, you could throw a safety in there, since they call out signals in the defensive backfield.

Let me ask you this do you think a safety is ever worth a top 10 pick, that is what I mean when I say positional value, for me to use a top 10 pick on a safety he has to be the definition of freak, a once in 50 years type of talent.

Short Leash Hootie
07-27-2008, 05:42 PM
1. QB
2. LT
3. DT
4. MLB
5. WR
6. DE
7. CB
8. SS
9. TE
10. RT
11. S
12. OG
13. C
14. HB (dime a dozen)
15. FB

I don't give a shit about kickers...and I just realized I forgot OLB...probably right before safeties...

Direckshun
07-27-2008, 05:44 PM
QB

DT
DE
WR
OT

MLB

CB (lower in the Cover 2)
S (higher in the Cover 2)
C
RB
OLB

OG
TE

ST
FB

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:45 PM
Let me ask you this do you think a safety is ever worth a top 10 pick, that is what I mean when I say positional value, for me to use a top 10 pick on a safety he has to be the definition of freak, a once in 50 years type of talent.

Yeah, I looked at that post as soon as I posted it and disagreed with myself, lol.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:46 PM
I would have used a top 10 pick on Sean Taylor he was the only safety I ever saw I thought was worth that.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:48 PM
I would have used a top 10 pick on Sean Taylor he was the only safety I ever saw I thought was worth that.

Ed Reed is money. There have been a few others, ubut no, safety is not in the "most important" disucssion. More important than fullback, though.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:52 PM
If I actually ran down how I rank positional value, obviously there is some flux when you factor in the players you are looking at but I'd break them up into sections and it would be like this...

Firstly the most important positions that are worth top 10 picks
QB
DE
LT
DT
WR
CB
------
After that I'm not sure how many of those other positions I'd even consider taking in the first round....

I think interior line RB/FB and TE are positions that should never be drafted with a first round pick.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Ed Reed is money. There have been a few others, ubut no, safety is not in the "most important" disucssion. More important than fullback, though.

And Reed was damn near a 2nd round pick, he was a good pick but got picked right about where his position would dictate even though he was a great college player.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 05:54 PM
And Reed was damn near a 2nd round pick, he was a good pick but got picked right about where his position would dictate even though he was a great college player.

Dman, I'm off today. I was thinking he was taken around 10.

Mecca
07-27-2008, 05:57 PM
Dman, I'm off today. I was thinking he was taken around 10.

I'm pretty sure he was like pick 28, him and Ray Lewis were both very low 1st round picks.

milkman
07-27-2008, 05:57 PM
1. QB
2. LT
3. DT
4. MLB
5. WR
6. DE
7. CB
8. SS
9. TE
10. RT
11. S
12. OG
13. C
14. HB (dime a dozen)
15. FB

I don't give a shit about kickers...and I just realized I forgot OLB...probably right before safeties...

I think we are in agreement here, though I might trade the C and G positions.

Bowser
07-27-2008, 06:00 PM
I'm pretty sure he was like pick 28, him and Ray Lewis were both very low 1st round picks.

He was pick 24. Good call.