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HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 03:32 PM
Red Sox get:
- Jason Bay

Dodgers get:
- Manny Ramirez

Pirates get:
- Andy LaRoche
- Bryan Morris
- Brandon Moss
- Craig Hansen

Just breaking here.

NESN(the Sox station) seems to be indicating it was a 3-way deal involving the Pirates, and that Jason Bay is going to Boston.

JuicesFlowing
07-31-2008, 03:34 PM
I can see him in a Dodgers uniform ... guess the talk with the Marlins was just fluff.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 03:35 PM
Hmmm...heard the Marlins--Bucs-Sox rumor last night, I wonder what the Dodgers are giving up. I doubt it's Kershaw, but I guess you never know.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 03:35 PM
Thank God. Here's Boston sports talk radio for the last week:

Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 03:35 PM
Hmmm...heard the Marlins--Bucs-Sox rumor last night, I wonder what the Dodgers are giving up. I doubt it's Kershaw, but I guess you never know.

The Dodgers prospects/players are likely going to Pittsburgh, if I had to guess. I'd imagine it's someone along the lines of Kemp/Ethier.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 03:38 PM
Thank God. Here's Boston sports talk radio for the last week:

Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny

The real question is do the Dodgers get any Chemotherapy as a PTBNL in this deal?

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 03:38 PM
Manny Ramirez has been traded to the Dodgers in a three-team blockbuster, pending the approval of the commissioner's office, according to a source with knowledge of the deal.

Pirates outfielder Jason Bay is headed to the Red Sox. The Pirates will receive Andy LaRoche and right-hander Bryan Morris from the Dodgers and outfielder Damien Moss and releiver Craig Hansen from the Red Sox.
The Red Sox will pay all of the approximately $7 million remaining on Ramirez's contract.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8398506

88TG88
07-31-2008, 03:38 PM
nice, for what ?

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 03:40 PM
That should be 'Brandon Moss', not Damien.

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 03:41 PM
Red Sox get:
- Jason Bay

Dodgers get:
- Manny Ramirez

Pirates get:
- Andy LaRoche
- Bryan Morris
- Brandon Moss
- Craig Hansen

LaRoche gets to play with his brother.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 03:42 PM
That is a damn good trade for the Dodgers. They get a couple months of Manny, pay none of his salary, get two first rounders if he goes elsewhere, and all they gave up was LaRoche and Morris.

LaRoche is a decent prospect, but turning a late late rounder into two firsts and two months of Manny is a solid move.

Again, Theo Epstein proves why he's severely overrated, IMO.

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 03:47 PM
The Red Sox traded Manny Ramirez, Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, and 7 million dollars for Jason Bay. That's kinda brutal.

Sure-Oz
07-31-2008, 03:49 PM
Keagel said its official no deals were made with the royals

DaKCMan AP
07-31-2008, 03:50 PM
damn.. I thought the Rays were gonna bring Jason to the Bay.

The Rick
07-31-2008, 03:50 PM
Thank God. Here's Boston sports talk radio for the last week:

Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
Manny Manny Manny Manny Manny
You think that's bad, try living in Milwaukee, WI during the Brett Favre saga! :banghead:

JASONSAUTO
07-31-2008, 03:50 PM
manny might just be one of the biggest pieces of sh** in all of baseball.
the guy has NEVER played as hard as he could. LAZY

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 03:51 PM
The Red Sox traded Manny Ramirez, Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, and 7 million dollars for Jason Bay. That's kinda brutal.

I've said it over and over, you can't find a more overrated sports figure than Theo Epstein. The guy paid out the ass for Dice K, trashed his office because he wanted Jose Contreras that badly, pulled the trigger on deals for Edgar Renteria, Eric Gagne, and now traded Manny away for 50 cents on the dollar. I also loved when he traded for Doug Mirabelli because he needed a knuckleballer to catch Wakefield and gave up Cla Meredith and Josh Bard.

Consistent1
07-31-2008, 03:51 PM
I don't get any of this crap anymore. Manny is making a killing, on a good team, and he wants to get traded? Jason Bay is no Manny. The Dodgers did get a good deal IF the m-fer decides to play for the next couple months. Why doesn't anybody sign Bonds? I still don't get that. It will be interesting to see how the Sox do after this.

Frazod
07-31-2008, 03:51 PM
Sounded like Boston was to the point they would have traded him for a six pack of Coors Light.

As great as Ramirez is, just imagine how great he could be if he wasn't a slacking lazy-ass punk.

Sure-Oz
07-31-2008, 03:53 PM
damn.. I thought the Rays were gonna bring Jason to the Bay.

They should've done it, stupid imo not to go for it this year...

How often will they be ahead of NY and Boston?

Demonpenz
07-31-2008, 03:54 PM
Wow. Manny is going to suck in that huge LA field. He was helped by the green monster.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 03:54 PM
The Dodgers don't even have to sign Manny for this to be a great deal for them. Say the Yanks pay out the ass for him, then they'll get NY's 1st rounder (probably around 24th) as well as their next pick in the compensatory round.

Epstein should have just put up with him for two months, let him walk, and taken the draft picks.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Fruit Ninja
07-31-2008, 03:56 PM
Holy shit. **** yeah, so glad. Go Dodgers.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 03:56 PM
I don't get any of this crap anymore. Manny is making a killing, on a good team, and he wants to get traded? Jason Bay is no Manny. The Dodgers did get a good deal IF the m-fer decides to play for the next couple months. Why doesn't anybody sign Bonds? I still don't get that. It will be interesting to see how the Sox do after this.

One theory I've heard: Scott Boras.


Manny signed his old deal under another agent, so Boras doesn't get a %. So, although his options would have likely been picked up, Boras gets no cut. Thus he tells Manny to raise enough hell so that he can get his new deal (getting Manny "more money" ) but also ensuring that he gets his percentage.

He is the antichrist of baseball, after all.

Dicky McElephant
07-31-2008, 03:56 PM
As a Dodgers fan.....I don't know if I'm happy or pissed. But then again I don't really know baseball that well.

Fruit Ninja
07-31-2008, 03:56 PM
Dodgers didnt give up any of their big players either. How the **** did that happen.

Sure-Oz
07-31-2008, 03:59 PM
Moss would've gone to KC for Mahay but apparently they wanted to get rid of Ramirez bad enough they added him to the deal as well

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:03 PM
Theo is an idiot? I'll take an idiot GM who gets me 2 World Championships in less than 4 years anyday.

I dont know if you have been watching the Sox lately, But Manny has been purposely stinking up the place. I'm an Angels fan, so I saw it in person (saw the sweep in Anaheim--sweet!) and I've been watching the team on Fox Sports West. Manny isnt trying AT ALL. I guess the team figured they could do it without him this year, I dont know, but he was getting to be a major cancer.
Altho i did love his sign saying that he was going to green bay for farve straight up. That was some funny shit.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 04:07 PM
Theo is an idiot? I'll take an idiot GM who gets me 2 World Championships in less than 4 years anyday.

I dont know if you have been watching the Sox lately, But Manny has been purposely stinking up the place. I'm an Angels fan, so I saw it in person (saw the sweep in Anaheim--sweet!) and I've been watching the team on Fox Sports West. Manny isnt trying AT ALL. I guess the team figured they could do it without him this year, I dont know, but he was getting to be a major cancer.
Altho i ddi love his sign saying that he was going to green bay for farve straight up. That was some funny shit.

Yeah, that 500 foot bomb he hit against K-Rod really showed he wasn't giving a shit. Of course, you often look stupid when you face a pitcher who throws 8 1/3 of no-hit ball the next night.

The fact of the matter is that you could just let him walk and take the draft picks, but instead, you give up a major league ready outfielder in Moss, give up another prospect, still pay his salary, and sacrifice two 1st rounders for Bay.

Stewie
07-31-2008, 04:07 PM
Altho i did love his sign saying that he was going to green bay for farve straight up. That was some funny shit.

That's funny, right there.

Too bad the Royals didn't get him. Then we could have a whine-off between Manny and Jose somewhere down the road.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:11 PM
Yeah, that 500 foot bomb he hit against K-Rod really showed he wasn't giving a shit. Of course, you often look stupid when you face a pitcher who throws 8 1/3 of no-hit ball the next night.

The fact of the matter is that you could just let him walk and take the draft picks, but instead, you give up a major league ready outfielder in Moss, give up another prospect, still pay his salary, and sacrifice two 1st rounders for Bay.

Well frist of all, its more about what he did after he hit the ball. A few times he hit it in the outfield and then barely left the batters box, instead of running...shit, instead of jogging. Again, if you've been watching the games, in their entirety, then you know what I'm talking about. watching a replay of a homerun he hit says nothing about how he's been playing/acting.

Granted, the Red Sox got barely anything in return. But that tells you how much they wanted to just get rid of him.

sedated
07-31-2008, 04:12 PM
this totally f*cks the Red Sox.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:12 PM
That's funny, right there.

Too bad the Royals didn't get him. Then we could have a whine-off between Manny and Jose somewhere down the road.

LOL...I'd take Manny over Guillen anyday. At least Manny can truly hit, is intimidating and a funny mother****er. Guillen is just plain trash.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:13 PM
this totally f*cks the Red Sox.

I know. Its great isn't it?

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 04:14 PM
Well frist of all, its more about what he did after he hit the ball. A few times he hit it in the outfield and then barely left the batters box, instead of running...shit, instead of jogging. Again, if you've been watching the games, in their entirety, then you know what I'm talking about. watching a replay of a homerun he hit says nothing about how he's been playing/acting.

Granted, the Red Sox got barely anything in return. But that tells you how much they wanted to just get rid of him.

He's done this same shit for years. He's like a five year old. Just stop paying attention to the antics and he'll stop. He got crucified 4 or 5 years ago, because he hit a grounder, took two steps out of the box and walked back to the dugout. It's not a new development by any means.

Consistent1
07-31-2008, 04:16 PM
One theory I've heard: Scott Boras.


Manny signed his old deal under another agent, so Boras doesn't get a %. So, although his options would have likely been picked up, Boras gets no cut. Thus he tells Manny to raise enough hell so that he can get his new deal (getting Manny "more money" ) but also ensuring that he gets his percentage.

He is the antichrist of baseball, after all.

That may well be true. It is just crazy to me to deal a guy like this. Yes, I understand he pushed it with them. There must be more to it than we know. They still have a nice chance at winning the series. Manny must be more of a dick than we even know about. He should kick ass in LA for awhile because the pitchers aren't that up on him. If it was me, I would want to go to a team with a little more line-up protection. Hell, the fool prolly won't play more than 10 games for the rest of the season. He should just retire if he wants to be an ass that much.

Fruit Ninja
07-31-2008, 04:18 PM
I dont know if anyone really watches baseball, but all big time power hitters jog to first base when they hit a ground. NONE of them ever try to leg it out. They arent going to rush to first base so they can pull a hamstring. ITs not going to happen.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:18 PM
He's done this same shit for years. He's like a five year old. Just stop paying attention to the antics and he'll stop. He got crucified 4 or 5 years ago, because he hit a grounder, took two steps out of the box and walked back to the dugout. It's not a new development by any means.

Yeah, but this year is different because of contract status. I'm assuming by the willingness to let him go for practically nothing, the Sox FO felt that he wasnt going to stop his antics. The team is flailing right now, he was a complete cancer who was acting out bigtime. And not just with his bat, he made no effort to get to a couple of balls in the outfield as well. It was real bad this year, and Francona and Theo looked like they couldnt take it anymore.

Consistent1
07-31-2008, 04:19 PM
I dont know if anyone really watches baseball, but all big time power hitters jog to first base when they hit a ground. NONE of them ever try to leg it out. They arent going to rush to first base so they can pull a hamstring. ITs not going to happen.


They should have traded him for Dunn. lol

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:20 PM
I dont know if anyone really watches baseball, but all big time power hitters jog to first base when they hit a ground. NONE of them ever try to leg it out. They arent going to rush to first base so they can pull a hamstring. ITs not going to happen.

Dude, a couple of times last night alone, he didnt even leave the batters box. He stood there and then walked to the dugout. Even the play by play guys were talking about how bad it was.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:21 PM
That may well be true. It is just crazy to me to deal a guy like this. Yes, I understand he pushed it with them. There must be more to it than we know. They still have a nice chance at winning the series. Manny must be more of a dick than we even know about. He should kick ass in LA for awhile because the pitchers aren't that up on him. If it was me, I would want to go to a team with a little more line-up protection. Hell, the fool prolly won't play more than 10 games for the rest of the season. He should just retire if he wants to be an ass that much.


There's defintely more to this than we know. They gave him away.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah, but this year is different because of contract status. I'm assuming by the willingness to let him go for practically nothing, the Sox FO felt that he wasnt going to stop his antics. The team is flailing right now, he was a complete cancer who was acting out bigtime. And not just with his bat, he made no effort to get to a couple of balls in the outfield as well. It was real bad this year, and Francona and Theo looked like they couldnt take it anymore.

I'm not doubting the guy is a cancer, but giving him away as well as all these other prospects and paying his salary is flat out retarded.

Last year Theo traded Gabbard and David Murphy (damn good player) for 2 months of Gagne.

This year he trades Manny, another ML-ready outfielder in Moss, 7 million bucks and two '09 first rounders for Jason Bay, he of the .190 average against lefties.

Of course, he also gave JD Drew 70 million bucks, gave Lugo 9 million a year, traded a quality middle reliever and a starting caliber catcher for a backup catcher (who they later DFA'ed).

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:29 PM
I'm not doubting the guy is a cancer, but giving him away as well as all these other prospects and paying his salary is flat out retarded.

Last year Theo traded Gabbard and David Murphy (damn good player) for 2 months of Gagne.

This year he trades Manny, another ML-ready outfielder in Moss, 7 million bucks and two '09 first rounders for Jason Bay, he of the .190 average against lefties.

Of course, he also gave JD Drew 70 million bucks, gave Lugo 9 million a year, traded a quality middle reliever and a starting caliber catcher for a backup catcher (who they later DFA'ed).

Yeah, and won the World Series twice in the last 3 years...

I agree, they gave him away. But whatever we dont know, why they did it, must be good. They must of been hating on his ass something fierce. I've been watching the team for the last week, almost non-stop, and the team loooked like shit and very unhappy. Especially Francona and Theo.

Fruit Ninja
07-31-2008, 04:29 PM
That may well be true. It is just crazy to me to deal a guy like this. Yes, I understand he pushed it with them. There must be more to it than we know. They still have a nice chance at winning the series. Manny must be more of a dick than we even know about. He should kick ass in LA for awhile because the pitchers aren't that up on him. If it was me, I would want to go to a team with a little more line-up protection. Hell, the fool prolly won't play more than 10 games for the rest of the season. He should just retire if he wants to be an ass that much.

This is going to help the Dodgers young hitters alot. Kemp and Either are going to benefit from this big time. Dodgers hit for a HIGH average. They just didnt have much pop. I cant wait to see how this works. Hopefully he makes it to the game tonight. Going to be watching the Dodgers game tonight no doubt.

Stewie
07-31-2008, 04:30 PM
and two '09 first rounders for Jason Bay, he of the .190 average against lefties.


MLB doesn't allow trading draft picks.

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 04:34 PM
MLB doesn't allow trading draft picks.

Compensation for losing a high FA. Manny'll be a Type A, so they'll get the first round pick from the team that signs him(assuming it's one of the teams that finishes in like the top 15 of the league I think) and an additional sandwich pick.

Consistent1
07-31-2008, 04:34 PM
This is going to help the Dodgers young hitters alot. Kemp and Either are going to benefit from this big time. Dodgers hit for a HIGH average. They just didnt have much pop. I cant wait to see how this works. Hopefully he makes it to the game tonight. Going to be watching the Dodgers game tonight no doubt.

That is true. He offers them (Dodgers young guys) more than vice versa. They have some guys who may be pretty good in the future. It is just sad to see crap like this go down. Manny helped the RS, they owe him for that. How can he not owe them for the kind of money he makes? Just a flat out stupid situation.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:35 PM
This is going to help the Dodgers young hitters alot. Kemp and Either are going to benefit from this big time. Dodgers hit for a HIGH average. They just didnt have much pop. I cant wait to see how this works. Hopefully he makes it to the game tonight. Going to be watching the Dodgers game tonight no doubt.

And the NL West is up for grabs. This helps the Dodgers in general. Manny is going to get down to business now and LA could take the division easily...

Mecca
07-31-2008, 04:35 PM
Yeah, and won the World Series twice in the last 3 years...

I agree, they gave him away. But whatever we dont know, why they did it, must be good. They must of been hating on his ass something fierce. I've been watching the team for the last week, almost non-stop, and the team loooked like shit and very unhappy. Especially Francona and Theo.

I think he's saying in the long run they'll pay for making those moves...

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:37 PM
I think he's saying in the long run they'll pay for making those moves...

Yeah, possibly, but being an Angels fan, who always loses the short term worried about the long run....Get the trophy while you can. And thats what they did. And thats hopefully what my boys did this year by getting Teixiera.:)

Consistent1
07-31-2008, 04:39 PM
I think he's saying in the long run they'll pay for making those moves...

I always like your stuff bro. Why didn't the Royals package up some of the losers you always bitch about, and make a playoff run? Haha.

Hoover
07-31-2008, 04:39 PM
I think this is a great deal for the Dodgers. As said above, every power hitter takes his time to 1st base, they all watch the long ball. Also Borras is a factor, he needs Manny to be a FA after this year to make any money on him.

What I don't get is why Boston caved in? They were not going to pick up his 20m option anyway, and sure they got Bay, but he is not Manny. So Boston is worse off, Dodgers are better and watch him go on a tear, and Pitt got a bunch of prospects.

As a Cubs fan I'm thrilled. The last team I want to see in the playoffs is the Diamondbacks. Plus the Dodger play both the Brewers and Cards in August while the Cubs are done with them.

Hoover
07-31-2008, 04:39 PM
MLB doesn't allow trading draft picks.

They get the picks if he walks after this season.

Stewie
07-31-2008, 04:40 PM
Compensation for losing a high FA. Manny'll be a Type A, so they'll get the first round pick from the team that signs him(assuming it's one of the teams that finishes in like the top 15 of the league I think) and an additional sandwich pick.

Boston had options on Manny through 2010. Does that make him a free agent? I don't know the complexities of how those types of contracts work, but I wouldn't consider him a FA.

Mecca
07-31-2008, 04:41 PM
I always like your stuff bro. Why didn't the Royals package up some of the losers you always bitch about, and make a playoff run? Haha.

Keeping the losers allows them to make a run for last place, the spot they own.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:41 PM
I think this is a great deal for the Dodgers. As said above, every power hitter takes his time to 1st base, they all watch the long ball. Also Borras is a factor, he needs Manny to be a FA after this year to make any money on him.

What I don't get is why Boston caved in? They were not going to pick up his 20m option anyway, and sure they got Bay, but he is not Manny. So Boston is worse off, Dodgers are better and watch him go on a tear, and Pitt got a bunch of prospects.

As a Cubs fan I'm thrilled. The last team I want to see in the playoffs is the Diamondbacks. Plus the Dodger play both the Brewers and Cards in August while the Cubs are done with them.

Boston caved becasue they just couldnt take it anymore. And as an Angels fan, I'm stoked too. The Red Sox aren't as intimidating. Altho, we did just sweep them, twice in a matter of 2 weeks o:-)

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
Boston had options on Manny through 2010. Does that make him a free agent? I don't know the complexities of how those types of contracts work, but I wouldn't consider him a FA.

There was a 20 mil option for 2009.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
I think he's saying in the long run they'll pay for making those moves...

Correct, and Holmezz is right re: the draft picks.

You can't continue to trade guys like Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Murphy, Moss, Manny, give up your draft picks to sign flame out FA's and expect to remain competitive.

You can only sign so many Coco Crisps, Julio Lugos, Renterias, and JD Drews.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 04:44 PM
Boston had options on Manny through 2010. Does that make him a free agent? I don't know the complexities of how those types of contracts work, but I wouldn't consider him a FA.

You decline his option, he becomes a FA. If he signs with another team, he is considered a Type A because of his stats. You get their first round pick (top 15 protected) and a pick in the compensatory round (30-50).

HolmeZz
07-31-2008, 04:44 PM
Boston had options on Manny through 2010. Does that make him a free agent? I don't know the complexities of how those types of contracts work, but I wouldn't consider him a FA.

They likely wouldn't have picked up his option after this season and he would've become a FA anyway(unless they picked it up and dealt him).

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:46 PM
Correct, and Holmezz is right re: the draft picks.

You can't continue to trade guys like Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Murphy, Moss, Manny, give up your draft picks to sign flame out FA's and expect to remain competitive.

You can only sign so many Coco Crisps, Julio Lugos, Renterias, and JD Drews.

You're right and maybe as a fan of a different team, I'm happy they keep doing this type of stuff.

But again, I've been watching the team lately due to them playing mine, and it was real bad in the Boston clubhouse. More so this year than any other. Just saying, I'm not surprised they gave him away based on how unhappy the GM and Coach was with Manny.

Stewie
07-31-2008, 04:46 PM
You decline his option, he becomes a FA. If he signs with another team, he is considered a Type A because of his stats. You get their first round pick (top 15 protected) and a pick in the compensatory round (30-50).

Ah, got it. Thanks.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 04:50 PM
You're right and maybe as a fan of a different team, I'm happy they keep doing this type of stuff.

But again, I've been watching the team lately due to them playing mine, and it was real bad in the Boston clubhouse. More so this year than any other. Just saying, I'm not surprised they gave him away based on how unhappy the GM and Coach was with Manny.

You should be, because you raked on that Teixeira trade.

Carlota69
07-31-2008, 04:51 PM
You should be, because you raked on that Teixeira trade.

Didnt we? Wow, we did good there. Kotchamn is a good player, cheap and signed thru 2011, but Teix is a monster. I'm very stoked.

Sure-Oz
07-31-2008, 04:51 PM
With Ramirez being dealt to the Dodgers, i can see Andruw Jones being waived....any reason to think if that happens the Royals would be interested? Since they did try to sign him in the offseason?

Mojo Rising
07-31-2008, 04:55 PM
This would have been better for the Dodgers if we could have sent Andrew Jones to Boston in the deal.

We are now going to have Jones (except when we face a lefty, then Pierre) and Kemp on the bench.

This will slow his development as well as Ethier's as he will miss playing time too.

Jones and Pierre are both good in the field which should help Manny in Left.

I have always disliked Manny. It could have been worse in Bonds would have ended up in Dodger blue though.

Valiant
07-31-2008, 05:24 PM
I'm not doubting the guy is a cancer, but giving him away as well as all these other prospects and paying his salary is flat out retarded.

Last year Theo traded Gabbard and David Murphy (damn good player) for 2 months of Gagne.

This year he trades Manny, another ML-ready outfielder in Moss, 7 million bucks and two '09 first rounders for Jason Bay, he of the .190 average against lefties.

Of course, he also gave JD Drew 70 million bucks, gave Lugo 9 million a year, traded a quality middle reliever and a starting caliber catcher for a backup catcher (who they later DFA'ed).

And if they win the Series then it was worth it..

Deberg_1990
07-31-2008, 05:41 PM
Seems like the BoSox have been trying to get rid of ManRam forever??

hard to believe any team would want to get rid of an automatic 30+ HR's and 100+ RBI guy.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 05:53 PM
This would have been better for the Dodgers if we could have sent Andrew Jones to Boston in the deal.

We are now going to have Jones (except when we face a lefty, then Pierre) and Kemp on the bench.

This will slow his development as well as Ethier's as he will miss playing time too.

Jones and Pierre are both good in the field which should help Manny in Left.

I have always disliked Manny. It could have been worse in Bonds would have ended up in Dodger blue though.

Actually, Jones will be the fifth outfielder, and would have only platooned against lefties (20% of time).

Your everyday lineup will be Manny, Pierre, and Kemp with Ethier spelling the sides.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 05:58 PM
Strange deal. Seriously. Dumping Ramirez' salary for an extra year of Bay makes sense. It just means you put off finding a LF for one more season.
But sending decent prospects out the door seems ... uh. Dumb.

But to the Red Sox it really doesn't mean anything. They aren't that different from the Evil Empire. They have tons of cash and will just spend more for the top talent when it becomes available.

As far as losing two picks that means nothing really. Bay will bring the same two picks if/ when he leaves, no?

Coach
07-31-2008, 06:01 PM
I gotta say though that Pittsburgh raked on this deal.

Fruit Ninja
07-31-2008, 06:01 PM
Actually, Jones will be the fifth outfielder, and would have only platooned against lefties (20% of time).

Your everyday lineup will be Manny, Pierre, and Kemp with Ethier spelling the sides.

I think its going to be Manny, Kemp and Either.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 06:03 PM
Strange deal. Seriously. Dumping Ramirez' salary for an extra year of Bay makes sense. It just means you put off finding a LF for one more season.
But sending decent prospects out the door seems ... uh. Dumb.

But to the Red Sox it really doesn't mean anything. They aren't that different from the Evil Empire. They have tons of cash and will just spend more for the top talent when it becomes available.

As far as losing two picks that means nothing really. Bay will bring the same two picks if/ when he leaves, no?

Perhaps. Bay is a guy more likely to be signed by a lower level team than Manny is, who would probably only sign with the A's, Angels, Yankees or Mets because of their payroll. That in and of itself would mean that they may only get one pick for Bay.

Who knows, they may just re-up with Bay, but I don't think that they needed to give up cash and those players.

Mojo Rising
07-31-2008, 06:03 PM
Actually, Jones will be the fifth outfielder, and would have only platooned against lefties (20% of time).

Your everyday lineup will be Manny, Pierre, and Kemp with Ethier spelling the sides.

You're right. That's what I meant. Jones played well on D last night. 0 for 3 doesn't help though.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 06:05 PM
Perhaps. Bay is a guy more likely to be signed by a lower level team than Manny is, who would probably only sign with the A's, Angels, Yankees or Mets because of their payroll. That in and of itself would mean that they may only get one pick for Bay.

Who knows, they may just re-up with Bay, but I don't think that they needed to give up cash and those players.

I agree with you about the players.

JMO, the SOX don't worry about cash. They have that like I have O2.

Coach
07-31-2008, 06:06 PM
You're right. That's what I meant. Jones played well on D last night. 0 for 3 doesn't help though.

Jones offense is just godawful. Is the Dodgers actually gaining anything just to keep Jones on the roster?

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 06:14 PM
manny might just be one of the biggest pieces of sh** in all of baseball.
the guy has NEVER played as hard as he could. LAZY

your and idiot

Coach
07-31-2008, 06:17 PM
Not bothering through six pages of jabba jabba, but Griffey was traded to the White Suck.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:18 PM
Holy shit I cant believed this happened. This is like the Gasol trade all over again.

Epstein is a dumb mother****er

Braincase
07-31-2008, 06:21 PM
Holy shit I cant believed this happened. This is like the Gasol trade all over again.

Epstein is a dumb mother****er

I don't care what Theo thinks. I care about what ol' Bill James has to say about it.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 06:21 PM
Holy shit I cant believed this happened. This is like the Gasol trade all over again.

Epstein is a dumb mother****er


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g3QDF7g5UGvk63AR9m-io1msgLcgD92939LO0

Close. The actual quote in here from Torre made me giggle.

Even before landing the enigmatic Ramirez, Los Angeles had a crowded outfield. Torre has been juggling Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre.

"You wish you had the DH," Torre said. "We didn't plan in advance how to move things around."

LMAO

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:23 PM
Theres no problem in the OF. Gangland style assasinate Andruw Jones with Vin Scullys microphone.

Problem solved.

Deberg_1990
07-31-2008, 06:24 PM
manny might just be one of the biggest pieces of sh** in all of baseball.
the guy has NEVER played as hard as he could. LAZY

Indeed. Clearly 510 career home runs, career .312 avg and 1672 RBI's isnt very good.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:26 PM
I don't care what Theo thinks. I care about what ol' Bill James has to say about it.

All I gotta say is we got a HOF .300 40 HR and 130 RBI guy and we gave up a quadrouple A player and a single A player.

Not to mention Theo is paying Mannys salary out for the rest of the season!

Coach
07-31-2008, 06:30 PM
All I gotta say is we got a HOF .300 40 HR and 130 RBI guy and we gave up a quadrouple A player and a single A player.

Not to mention Theo is paying Mannys salary out for the rest of the season!


And you still have a noodle-armed clown in CF in Juan Pierre, who isn't very good. The Dodgers would be better off either getting ride of Jones or Pierre.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:31 PM
And you still have a noodle-armed clown in CF in Juan Pierre, who isn't very good. The Dodgers would be better off either getting ride of Jones or Pierre.

Kemp plays center. Either plays right. Manny in left.

Pierre platoons.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 06:32 PM
Holy shit I cant believed this happened. This is like the Gasol trade all over again.

Epstein is a dumb mother****er

You got a 36 year old Manny with (what he says) is a very bad knee, was a disturbance in the clubhouse to the point he was all anybody was talking about. The Red Sox got Bay (good value IMO) in a time when EVERYBODY knew they wanted to dump him.

And while we won't know for a while who actually made out best on the deal, the Dodgers are certainly sitting pretty.

So I disagree that Epstein is too dumb. Like I stated already: Money is something the Red Sox have in spades. Plus, they got the best of years of Manny Ramirez, which included two WS titles.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:35 PM
You got a 36 year old Manny with (what he says) is a very bad knee, was a disturbance in the clubhouse to the point he was all anybody was talking about. The Red Sox got Bay (good value IMO) in a time when EVERYBODY knew they wanted to dump him.

And while we won't know for a while who actually made out best on the deal, the Dodgers are certainly sitting pretty.

So I disagree that Epstein is too dumb. Like I stated already: Money is something the Red Sox have in spades. Plus, they got the best of years of Manny Ramirez, which included two WS titles.

Bays a good player and is enjoying a resurgent season but he'll be 30 this year and his best years are probably behind him as well.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 06:38 PM
All I gotta say is we got a HOF .300 40 HR and 130 RBI guy and we gave up a quadrouple A player and a single A player.

Not to mention Theo is paying Mannys salary out for the rest of the season!

Actually, that Manny you mentioned probably doesn't exist. He has hit 40 HR twice, the last being 2005.

You have the Manny that might hit 25 and might drive in 100. If he doesn't quit.

But I won't deny that he may have put the Dodgers over the top in the West.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:41 PM
Actually, that Manny you mentioned probably doesn't exist. He has hit 40 HR twice, the last being 2005.

You have the Manny that might hit 25 and might drive in 100. If he doesn't quit.

But I won't deny that he may have put the Dodgers over the top in the West.

Umm he's hit 40 HRs 5 times and 3 times for the Sox.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:42 PM
His numbers will not be as good because Dodger stadium is a pitchers park, but did I forget to mention that we got him for virtually nothing and we're not paying his salary?

Coach
07-31-2008, 06:43 PM
Actually, that Manny you mentioned probably doesn't exist. He has hit 40 HR twice, the last being 2005.

You have the Manny that might hit 25 and might drive in 100. If he doesn't quit.

But I won't deny that he may have put the Dodgers over the top in the West.


No, he hit 40 HR's 5 times in his career, 2 with Cleveland and 3 with Boston.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ramirma02.shtml

His OBP and SLG is very good though, with a +140 OPS which is pretty good.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 06:44 PM
Umm he's hit 40 HRs 5 times and 3 times for the Sox.

Sorry dude. I hit the wrong keys. You are correct.

Mojo Rising
07-31-2008, 06:47 PM
Kemp plays center. Either plays right. Manny in left.

Pierre platoons.

I hope thats the way it works out. Don't think it will though.

L.A. Chieffan
07-31-2008, 06:49 PM
I hope thats the way it works out. Don't think it will though.

I hope Torre doesn't play Manny and Pierre at the same time. That could get ugly.

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 08:10 PM
You decline his option, he becomes a FA. If he signs with another team, he is considered a Type A because of his stats. You get their first round pick (top 15 protected) and a pick in the compensatory round (30-50).


you have to offer arb to get any pics from him.

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 08:11 PM
Holy shit I cant believed this happened. This is like the Gasol trade all over again.

Epstein is a dumb mother****er

How so?

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 08:13 PM
All I gotta say is we got a HOF .300 40 HR and 130 RBI guy and we gave up a quadrouple A player and a single A player.

Not to mention Theo is paying Mannys salary out for the rest of the season!

This is also what you get....

The Mike Lynch quote is on the WCVB Channel 5 website:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/17050722/detail.html (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/17050722/detail.html)
The quote states:

"A team insider told Lynch that 24 Red Sox players favored getting rid of Ramirez, while only one player wanted to keep him on the roster."

Ultra Peanut
07-31-2008, 08:54 PM
"Granma says we don leave Mr. Theo's house until little hand high five big han!"

I cannot wait for the Plaschke article fellating Colletti. LaRoche? Pfffft, we've got CASEY BLAKE (for another few months)!!!!!!

Has to suck for the Rays to see Bay go to... quick, something that rhymes with Bay and fits the Red Sox?

Mecca
07-31-2008, 09:02 PM
How so?

Probably because that isn't an equal value trade....they've traded alot of young players who are already showing they are very good players, in the end that will hurt them.

Cards Fan 4 Chiefs
07-31-2008, 09:06 PM
His numbers will not be as good because Dodger stadium is a pitchers park, but did I forget to mention that we got him for virtually nothing and we're not paying his salary?

LaRoche isn't nothing. He was the Dodgers best long-term solution at third base and now the position is a weakness beyond 2008. In 123 at-bats at Triple-A Las Vegas, LaRoche had 37 BB/14 K, good for a .452 OBP. Not many 24-year-olds have that much control over the strike zone.

It's still a good trade for the Dodgers, but don't exaggerate the cost.

Mecca
07-31-2008, 09:09 PM
LaRoche had always put up great minor league numbers and every time they brought him up he sucked....they may think he's one of those guys.

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 09:10 PM
Probably because that isn't an equal value trade....they've traded alot of young players who are already showing they are very good players, in the end that will hurt them.

How are you quantifying the value? Many has all but decided to pack it in after the ASG. So the Sox shipped him along with an OF that would never be more than a 4<SUP>th</SUP>/platoon type of guy and a closer that is extremely talented but couldn’t pull it all together.

Ultra Peanut
07-31-2008, 09:11 PM
All I gotta say is we got a HOF .300 40 HR and 130 RBI guy and we gave up a quadrouple A playerAndy LaRoche is a 24 year old with a whopping 152 career MLB at-bats.

Have fun with your rented "grinder" who's a butcher at third and your 36-year-old manchild.

Mecca
07-31-2008, 09:12 PM
How are you quantifying the value? Many has all but decided to pack it in after the ASG. So the Sox shipped him along with an OF that would never be more than a 4<SUP>th</SUP>/platoon type of guy and a closer that is extremely talented but couldn’t pull it all together.

While also paying Ramirez contract...and giving the Dodgers essentially 2 first round picks to take him...

The Red Sox are lucky they have money because they haven't gotten the best end in several trades they've made.

Mecca
07-31-2008, 09:12 PM
Andy LaRoche is a 24 year old with a whopping 152 career MLB at-bats.

Have fun with your rented "grinder" and your 36-year-old manchild.

Well 2 first round picks to an organization that tends to draft well.....

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 09:13 PM
you have to offer arb to get any pics from him.

Yeah, and the odds of him accepting that are slightly less than 0.

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 09:14 PM
Yeah, and the odds of him accepting that are slightly less than 0.

You never know with Manny.

MIAdragon
07-31-2008, 09:16 PM
While also paying Ramirez contract...and giving the Dodgers essentially 2 first round picks to take him...

The Red Sox are lucky they have money because they haven't gotten the best end in several trades they've made.

True, a deep farm sys and $$$ lets you get away with a few of these.

Ultra Peanut
07-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Anyways, I'm just glad the Cubs' AAAA farm club picked up some prospects.

Wish Eyre could have been dumped off on someone, though. There's just no place for him in that bullpen.

Coach
07-31-2008, 09:19 PM
Anyways, I'm just glad the Cubs' AAAA farm club picked up some prospects.

Wish Eyre could have been dumped off on someone, though. There's just no place for him in that bullpen.

No, especially with the addition of Shark, combine with Lou's major mancrush on having Marmol pitching every f**king night, that I couldn't remember when was the last time Eyre pitched until today. Or Marshall for that matter.

Cards Fan 4 Chiefs
07-31-2008, 09:26 PM
LaRoche had always put up great minor league numbers and every time they brought him up he sucked....they may think he's one of those guys.

The Dodgers never gave LaRoche a chance. You think a prospect of LaRoche's magnitude is somebody you quit on after 152 big league at-bats? Get real. Except for the rare greats like Pujols, Hamilton, Braun, everybody goes through the growing pains of adjusting to big league pitching. LaRoche is finally with a club that will give him the opportunity that he has earned.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 09:51 PM
Probably because that isn't an equal value trade....they've traded alot of young players who are already showing they are very good players, in the end that will hurt them.

I'm curious how you make an "equal value" trade when Manny Ramirez and Boras basically put a gun to your head?

IMO, the Red Sox made out pretty well in what wasn't exactly a great situation.

RJ
07-31-2008, 10:01 PM
I'm curious how you make an "equal value" trade when Manny Ramirez and Boras basically put a gun to your head?

IMO, the Red Sox made out pretty well in what wasn't exactly a great situation.


I agree with that. Manny is 36 (?), Hansen has some potential but hasn't shown anything in the majors yet and Moss looks to be mediocre at best. I think they did OK.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:11 PM
That is a damn good trade for the Dodgers. They get a couple months of Manny, pay none of his salary, get two first rounders if he goes elsewhere, and all they gave up was LaRoche and Morris.

LaRoche is a decent prospect, but turning a late late rounder into two firsts and two months of Manny is a solid move.

Again, Theo Epstein proves why he's severely overrated, IMO.


Manny shot his way out of town, and Theo has brought 2 WS to Boston, so I have no idea WTF you're talking about.

Was ti a great trade? No. But the RS didn't have a ton of choices unless they wanted to deal with the Manny circus for another 3 months.

WilliamTheIrish
07-31-2008, 10:11 PM
And for the record, I'd like to state to some of the martyr type posters here that I'll bet you can find a great deal of Sox fans unhappy with Manny's antics.
(Since only Royals fans b*tch about their best players who don't hustle.)

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:15 PM
I've said it over and over, you can't find a more overrated sports figure than Theo Epstein. The guy paid out the ass for Dice K, trashed his office because he wanted Jose Contreras that badly, pulled the trigger on deals for Edgar Renteria, Eric Gagne, and now traded Manny away for 50 cents on the dollar. I also loved when he traded for Doug Mirabelli because he needed a knuckleballer to catch Wakefield and gave up Cla Meredith and Josh Bard.


How did you like it when he brought in Curt Schilling, got rid of an increasingly older and more frail Pedro who got to go be a broken-down diva for the Mets, traded Nomar for some guys who won us a World Series, and trade some young talent for BOTH Beckett and Lowell, lining up the Red Sox for a second World Series.

And you're not even giving credit for building up the farm system, which was TOTALLY ignored under Dan Duqette. The RS farm system was completely empty when Theo came in. After 5 years it can boast developing guys like Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury and Pedroia.

Right, there's ONE team with 2 WS championships this decade. And what team is that, I wonder?

You're making a fool of yourself. Does every deal work? No, but the Red Sox are at least smart enough to cut their losses and move on. The old Red Sox regime would keep the losers around and deny that it had been a mistake in the first place.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:18 PM
Yeah, that 500 foot bomb he hit against K-Rod really showed he wasn't giving a shit. Of course, you often look stupid when you face a pitcher who throws 8 1/3 of no-hit ball the next night.

The fact of the matter is that you could just let him walk and take the draft picks, but instead, you give up a major league ready outfielder in Moss, give up another prospect, still pay his salary, and sacrifice two 1st rounders for Bay.


Moss's ceiling ain't that high. He's JAG.

You pay his salary either way. If he stays, you pay and your team is torn apart with dissention and the season is a complete lost cause and your star player is giving zero effort. If he goes, you at least have a chance, and now you have a young, legit, solid left fielder to replace him, who you have through '09, who si on the "right side" of 30, and who might sign on for more years if everything works out.

Bill Parcells
07-31-2008, 10:18 PM
The Red Sox had no choice. Youcholitz got into a fight with him a few weeks back and big fatty and Varitek could no longer control him. this was ok behavior back in 2004 because there were mostly veterans. but now with Pedroia and the other kid looking at this idiot every day, these future stars could be ruined by watching his antics with no repercussions.

tk13
07-31-2008, 10:18 PM
I think Boston is lucky that they have the money to make up for some of the mistakes they do make. Although they've made some good deals too. I can't imagine what that lineup would've been like with Hanley Ramirez... but they might not have won last year without Beckett. Theo's done a good job finding 2-3 good starters and a closer, and that's what wins in the playoffs.

I don't know if anyone's sure how Bay will do in that lineup, and hitting off the Green Monster. He could put up some big numbers. He's either gonna blow up into a true superstar or be known as a guy who couldn't hold up in the big lights.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:19 PM
this totally f*cks the Red Sox.

They were hosed anyway. Manny HAD to go. He shot his way out of town. Why, I'm not really sure, but whatever. Thanks for everything, but byebye.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:19 PM
I know. Its great isn't it?


Funny, we thought it was a lost season when we dumped Nomar too...

Bill Parcells
07-31-2008, 10:20 PM
They were hosed anyway. Manny HAD to go. He shot his way out of town. Why, I'm not really sure, but whatever. Thanks for everything, but byebye.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2008/07/ipt/1217477867.jpg

What a moron he is

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:22 PM
I think he's saying in the long run they'll pay for making those moves...


Nah. Manny is gone anyway, and it didn't look like Hansen or Moss had high ceilings or anything. The $$ is irrelevant. The 2 1st round picks kinda hurt, but I assume we'd get 1 or 2 if we lose Bay after '09. If we don't lose him, and fine, we've got a solid above-average left fielder.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:24 PM
You can only sign so many Coco Crisps, Julio Lugos, Renterias, and JD Drews.

ACtually, you can sign as many as your bank account can afford, and in the f'ed up system that is MLB, for some teams that's quite alot.

And P.S., JD Drew mgiht not be worth every dime of $14MM, but he is a very above average right fielder, in case you hadn't noticed.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:25 PM
You decline his option, he becomes a FA. If he signs with another team, he is considered a Type A because of his stats. You get their first round pick (top 15 protected) and a pick in the compensatory round (30-50).

What happens in '09 if we don't keep Bay? Same thing?

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:27 PM
Holy shit I cant believed this happened. This is like the Gasol trade all over again.

Epstein is a dumb mother****er

If you haven't lived in Boston the last month, you can't understand how bad it was. The RS were imploding. If only to prove that players can't run the show around here, they had to axe him one way or the other.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:29 PM
All I gotta say is we got a HOF .300 40 HR and 130 RBI guy and we gave up a quadrouple A player and a single A player.

Not to mention Theo is paying Mannys salary out for the rest of the season!


I won't say it's a bad trade for the Dodgers. Obviously, it's a very good trade, and he'll probably be happy and productive for you, but Manny is more like a 300-30-100 guy instead of a 300-40-130 guy that he was.

(that is, of course, still pretty freaking awesome. Watching Manny bat is like watching Pedro pitch at his prime, or like Michelangelo paint or something.)

Fruit Ninja
07-31-2008, 10:29 PM
If you haven't lived in Boston the last month, you can't understand how bad it was. The RS were imploding. If only to prove that players can't run the show around here, they had to axe him one way or the other.

Yeah, it only took him 4 years to finally push his way out. lol

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:31 PM
This is also what you get....

The Mike Lynch quote is on the WCVB Channel 5 website:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/17050722/detail.html (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/17050722/detail.html)
The quote states:

"A team insider told Lynch that 24 Red Sox players favored getting rid of Ramirez, while only one player wanted to keep him on the roster."

That would be Julio Lugo, who is another POS who is going to get ridden out of town on a rail asap.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:32 PM
Yeah, it only took him 4 years to finally push his way out. lol


Never been as bad as this year, and the fact that he has only half a season left on his ridiculous contract made it do-able.

NEVER forget that in the, think it was 2003 offseason, the RS put Manny on WAIVERS, and there were no takers. NOBODY was willing to take him and his $20MM per year contract for nothing. And he was 4 or whatever years younger then than he is now.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:33 PM
Probably because that isn't an equal value trade....they've traded alot of young players who are already showing they are very good players, in the end that will hurt them.


So you'd keep Hanley Ramirez and forego the trade that brought Beckett and Lowell and a second World Series to Boston?

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:34 PM
While also paying Ramirez contract...and giving the Dodgers essentially 2 first round picks to take him...

The Red Sox are lucky they have money because they haven't gotten the best end in several trades they've made.


Yes, but they can also afford to make mistakes. MLB is a stupid-ass system. Bring in REnteria and then ship him right back out and eat the cost and not care a darn bit, really. Foolish.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:36 PM
I'm curious how you make an "equal value" trade when Manny Ramirez and Boras basically put a gun to your head?

IMO, the Red Sox made out pretty well in what wasn't exactly a great situation.


Everyone knew the RS had to do this. The planned 3 way with Florida fell through because in addition to wanting the RS to cover Manny's full salary, they wanted a couple of million of cash considerations on top of it. The RS said f'off and found another deal.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:38 PM
The Red Sox had no choice. Youcholitz got into a fight with him a few weeks back and big fatty and Varitek could no longer control him. this was ok behavior back in 2004 because there were mostly veterans. but now with Pedroia and the other kid looking at this idiot every day, these future stars could be ruined by watching his antics with no repercussions.


Did the fact that Manny got into a tussle with a 50+ year old RS locker room attendant type of guy get any play nationwide? How ridiculous is that? Manny was in two fights in the last month with his own freaking teammates/employees, one of whom was a fairly old man. WTF.

Mecca
07-31-2008, 10:38 PM
Yes, but they can also afford to make mistakes. MLB is a stupid-ass system. Bring in REnteria and then ship him right back out and eat the cost and not care a darn bit, really. Foolish.

Even their best deal the Beckett one can only be looked at as equal due to how good Ramirez has been..

The rest of their trades have ended with them getting the worse end...

Mecca
07-31-2008, 10:39 PM
Did the fact that Manny got into a tussle with a 50+ year old RS locker room attendant type of guy get any play nationwide? How ridiculous is that? Manny was in two fights in the last month with his own freaking teammates/employees, one of whom was a fairly old man. WTF.

Speaking of Veritek isn't it nice when players want a dude batting 240 in the all star game....his time as a top level player has passed.

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:47 PM
Even their best deal the Beckett one can only be looked at as equal due to how good Ramirez has been..

The rest of their trades have ended with them getting the worse end...



*cough*Curt Schilling for Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon, Jorge de la Rosa and Michael Goss.*cough*

But in truth, his best "moves" have been developing the farm system and generally spotting good talent in free agency. Sure, Renteria was an obvious mistake, and JD Drew was overpaid (like the RS care), but David Ortiz and the guys coming up through the system have done wonders.

And the MAIN thing is you can't argue with the overall results. In the playoffs every year but one during the Theo era. 2 WS. And it's not JUST the payroll, since the RS had high payroll with far worse results under the prior regime, and the Yankees with nearly double the payroll haven't won the WS this millenium (though they obviously make the playoffs just about ever year).

Amnorix
07-31-2008, 10:48 PM
Speaking of Veritek isn't it nice when players want a dude batting 240 in the all star game....his time as a top level player has passed.


Clearly, but the RS value his defense and team leadership highly. I look for him to sign a 2 year deal with us fro less $$ than his current contract (he's ending a 4/$40 year this year) while we transition to someone else.

At this point, he's pretty much an automatic out.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 11:20 PM
Manny shot his way out of town, and Theo has brought 2 WS to Boston, so I have no idea WTF you're talking about.

Was ti a great trade? No. But the RS didn't have a ton of choices unless they wanted to deal with the Manny circus for another 3 months.

You do realize that if Theo had his way you would have trotted out Contreras in 2003, he also filled your shortstop position with Renteria, and then 9 million per of Lugo, traded Doug Mirabelli, then traded back for him a month later, giving up a switch hitting catcher (Josh Bard) who was younger, and a better hitter, as well as a damn good middle reliever in Cla Meredith.

Follow that up with Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena, Coco Crisp, and JD Drew.

The guy fell ass over teakettle into Ortiz, signing him as a backup first baseman behind Jeremy Giambi, and suddenly the team that someone else assembled wins it and he takes the credit.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 11:21 PM
I think Boston is lucky that they have the money to make up for some of the mistakes they do make. Although they've made some good deals too. I can't imagine what that lineup would've been like with Hanley Ramirez... but they might not have won last year without Beckett. Theo's done a good job finding 2-3 good starters and a closer, and that's what wins in the playoffs.

I don't know if anyone's sure how Bay will do in that lineup, and hitting off the Green Monster. He could put up some big numbers. He's either gonna blow up into a true superstar or be known as a guy who couldn't hold up in the big lights.

It wasn't just Hanley Ramirez, they also gave up Anibal Sanchez. He's gonna be a damn good pitcher.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 11:24 PM
How did you like it when he brought in Curt Schilling, got rid of an increasingly older and more frail Pedro who got to go be a broken-down diva for the Mets, traded Nomar for some guys who won us a World Series, and trade some young talent for BOTH Beckett and Lowell, lining up the Red Sox for a second World Series.

And you're not even giving credit for building up the farm system, which was TOTALLY ignored under Dan Duqette. The RS farm system was completely empty when Theo came in. After 5 years it can boast developing guys like Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury and Pedroia.

Right, there's ONE team with 2 WS championships this decade. And what team is that, I wonder?

You're making a fool of yourself. Does every deal work? No, but the Red Sox are at least smart enough to cut their losses and move on. The old Red Sox regime would keep the losers around and deny that it had been a mistake in the first place.

That's preposterous. Ramirez was already in their farm system, as were Sanchez and Youkilis.

'Hamas' Jenkins
07-31-2008, 11:27 PM
Never been as bad as this year, and the fact that he has only half a season left on his ridiculous contract made it do-able.

NEVER forget that in the, think it was 2003 offseason, the RS put Manny on WAIVERS, and there were no takers. NOBODY was willing to take him and his $20MM per year contract for nothing. And he was 4 or whatever years younger then than he is now.

You and I know that is bullshit. People put players on waivers to trade them, not release them. As soon as someone would claim Manny, the Red Sox would have instantly rescinded the claim and tried to negotiate a trade. And owing a guy 80 million is a hell of a different than owing him nothing and getting two first rounders just for having him for 3 months.

Cards Fan 4 Chiefs
08-01-2008, 02:35 AM
Instead of Brandon Moss, Pittsburgh should have asked for Lars Anderson or Josh Riddick.

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 07:25 AM
You do realize that if Theo had his way you would have trotted out Contreras in 2003, he also filled your shortstop position with Renteria, and then 9 million per of Lugo, traded Doug Mirabelli, then traded back for him a month later, giving up a switch hitting catcher (Josh Bard) who was younger, and a better hitter, as well as a damn good middle reliever in Cla Meredith.

Follow that up with Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena, Coco Crisp, and JD Drew.

The guy fell ass over teakettle into Ortiz, signing him as a backup first baseman behind Jeremy Giambi, and suddenly the team that someone else assembled wins it and he takes the credit.


I agree that Duquette gets a fair share of credit for the FIRST WS. Of course, Duquette never won squat so he was lousy at team building, and not so hot at pickign managers either.

And trading Nomar took guts, and was KEY. No getting rid of the Nomar lockerroomcancer, no World Series.

'07 is entirely Theo.

Waht is it with your abject hatred of Boston sports teams anyway? :shrug:

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 07:27 AM
And just for the record, nobody here is arguing Theo could hold a candle compared to Red Auerbach or Bill Belichick/Scott Pioli or anything.

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 07:28 AM
It wasn't just Hanley Ramirez, they also gave up Anibal Sanchez. He's gonna be a damn good pitcher.


Maybe, but you still have to make that trade, don't you...

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 07:30 AM
You and I know that is bullshit. People put players on waivers to trade them, not release them. As soon as someone would claim Manny, the Red Sox would have instantly rescinded the claim and tried to negotiate a trade. And owing a guy 80 million is a hell of a different than owing him nothing and getting two first rounders just for having him for 3 months.


**100%** of the talk around here is that it was a true waiver. Just take him. Would they have reclaimed and tried to work something out? Maybe, but you don't think the RS would've carried a huge chunk of his payroll? You're crazy if so. They always do that to help grease the deal.

And yet, nobody even nibbled.

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 07:31 AM
You do realize that if Theo had his way you would have trotted out Contreras in 2003, he also filled your shortstop position with Renteria, and then 9 million per of Lugo, traded Doug Mirabelli, then traded back for him a month later, giving up a switch hitting catcher (Josh Bard) who was younger, and a better hitter, as well as a damn good middle reliever in Cla Meredith.

Follow that up with Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena, Coco Crisp, and JD Drew.

The guy fell ass over teakettle into Ortiz, signing him as a backup first baseman behind Jeremy Giambi, and suddenly the team that someone else assembled wins it and he takes the credit.


Just re-read this. If hte dude sucks so bad, why are the RS winning World Series while other high payroll teams are spinning in the dirt?

Seriously.

MIAdragon
08-01-2008, 07:54 AM
Even their best deal the Beckett one can only be looked at as equal due to how good Ramirez has been..

The rest of their trades have ended with them getting the worse end...


Schill worked out ok.

MIAdragon
08-01-2008, 07:58 AM
Instead of Brandon Moss, Pittsburgh should have asked for Lars Anderson or Josh Riddick.

Moss is ready to play right now, thats what they wanted.

MIAdragon
08-01-2008, 08:00 AM
Clearly, but the RS value his defense and team leadership highly. I look for him to sign a 2 year deal with us fro less $$ than his current contract (he's ending a 4/$40 year this year) while we transition to someone else.

At this point, he's pretty much an automatic out.

Has a Boras client ever signed a 2yr deal?

Demonpenz
08-01-2008, 09:03 AM
Rany jerzellili from ranyontheroyals said the red sox came out good in this trade. I was puzzled

Cards Fan 4 Chiefs
08-01-2008, 09:13 AM
Moss is ready to play right now, thats what they wanted.

Moss is inferior to outfield prospects they already have, i.e. Steven Pearce, Andrew McCutchen and Jose Tabata. Fourth outfielder at best.

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 09:13 AM
Rany jerzellili from ranyontheroyals said the red sox came out good in this trade. I was puzzled


I would say "did about as well as they could, given a bad hand". There's no way that it's a trade they were excited to make or anythign.

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 09:14 AM
Has a Boras client ever signed a 2yr deal?


He's a 36 year old catcher (37 by the time next season starts) whose offense has completely gone by the boards. He's not going to have a ton of options.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-01-2008, 10:22 AM
Just re-read this. If hte dude sucks so bad, why are the RS winning World Series while other high payroll teams are spinning in the dirt?

Seriously.

I didn't say he was Allard Baird or JP Ricciardi. What I have said, and maintain is that he's severely overrated. If he was 50 and didn't get up on stage to play Pearl Jam in some Boston club, no one would care any more about him than say Omar Minaya.

He's a remarkably average general manager playing with a Jamie Gold like advantage of endless money to spend.

And for what it's worth, he gets credit for the Schilling trade, but I would buttress it by saying that almost no other teams were involved because of the $$ Schilling wanted.

The other trade that he gets credit for (but didn't make) that paid short term dividends is the Lowell-Beckett deal that was made by Bill LaJoie.

He also gave up Freddy Sanchez and Mike Gonzalez for two months of Suppan.

I do think that he's good at evaluating talent through the draft, but he's not the Midas he's made out to be, and nearly every deal that he's made via trade or through FA has ended up with him getting fleeced.

Carlota69
08-01-2008, 10:35 AM
*cough*Curt Schilling for Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon, Jorge de la Rosa and Michael Goss.*cough*

But in truth, his best "moves" have been developing the farm system and generally spotting good talent in free agency. Sure, Renteria was an obvious mistake, and JD Drew was overpaid (like the RS care), but David Ortiz and the guys coming up through the system have done wonders.

And the MAIN thing is you can't argue with the overall results. In the playoffs every year but one during the Theo era. 2 WS. And it's not JUST the payroll, since the RS had high payroll with far worse results under the prior regime, and the Yankees with nearly double the payroll haven't won the WS this millenium (though they obviously make the playoffs just about ever year).


It's funny how people are arguing with you about your team, that you watch everyday, read about everyday--have breathed everyday for however long...AND HAVE WON 2 WORLD SERIES TITLES IN THE LAST 3 YEARS! Ah, I'd be cool with my GM if he got us to the WS twice...shit I'm happy with mine right now....

The trade didnt surprise me at all, just because I've been watching the Sox for the last week and half religiously becasue of the Angel factor.

The team seemed to be falling apart, they were unhappy and Francona looked miserable. It just seemed different this year than any other "manny being manny" year. And if its true about the players wanting him out as well, you could be right, this may turn the ship aound.

Although, I'm still happy my pitchers dont have to face him anymore--he is a monster of a hitter.;)

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-01-2008, 10:38 AM
It's funny how people are arguing with you about your team, that you watch everyday, read about everyday--have breathed everyday for however long...AND HAVE WON 2 WORLD SERIES TITLES IN THE LAST 3 YEARS! Ah, I'd be cool with my GM if he got us to the WS twice...shit I'm happy with mine right now....

The trade didnt surprise me at all, just because I've been watching the Sox for the last week and half religiously becasue of the Angel factor.

The team seemed to be falling apart, they were unhappy and Francona looked miserable. It just seemed different this year than any other "manny being manny" year. And if its true about the players wanting him out as well, you could be right, this may turn the ship aound.

Although, I'm still happy my pitchers dont have to face him anymore--he is a monster of a hitter.;)

Given the existence of ESPN, if you think that people aren't constantly inundated with this Sox shit everyday, you're very, very naive.

MIAdragon
08-01-2008, 10:43 AM
He's a 36 year old catcher (37 by the time next season starts) whose offense has completely gone by the boards. He's not going to have a ton of options.

The C market is rather bleak next year, if he wants ANYTHING more than 2yrs Id rather see Kottaras get some time.

Carlota69
08-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Given the existence of ESPN, if you think that people aren't constantly inundated with this Sox shit everyday, you're very, very naive.

touche:)

I like to call it The Eastern Sports Programming Network.

JBucc
08-01-2008, 10:55 AM
So since I don't see any threads I take it no Royals were traded?

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-01-2008, 10:58 AM
touche:)

I like to call it The Eastern Sports Programming Network.


ESPN is basically the cable equivalent of a female Sox fan with one of those dumbass pink or green hats. Just a bunch of trendy figureheads who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Carlota69
08-01-2008, 11:13 AM
ESPN is basically the cable equivalent of a female Sox fan with one of those dumbass pink or green hats. Just a bunch of trendy figureheads who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

:clap:

I had a chance to interview Kruk form baseball Tonight, last year. He said, off mic of course, basically the same thing.

WilliamTheIrish
08-01-2008, 11:22 AM
ESPN is basically the cable equivalent of a female Sox fan with one of those dumbass pink or green hats. Just a bunch of trendy figureheads who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

You just described ScChief. Maybe not the pink hat...

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 11:27 AM
I didn't say he was Allard Baird or JP Ricciardi. What I have said, and maintain is that he's severely overrated. If he was 50 and didn't get up on stage to play Pearl Jam in some Boston club, no one would care any more about him than say Omar Minaya.

If all you're saying is that he isn't the best GM in baseball or whatever, that's fine. I think as a total package he's above average because of his drafting ability and emphasis on internal talent acquisition and development, rather than the Dan Duquette method and what was until somewhat recently the Yankee method.

And for what it's worth, he gets credit for the Schilling trade, but I would buttress it by saying that almost no other teams were involved because of the $$ Schilling wanted.

Yanks were waiting in the wings, as I recall.

And you can't say he had the advantage there because nobody was interested, and then pound him on Ramirez when he HAD to get rid of the guy and very few teams were interested in him either. It cuts both ways, or none.

The other trade that he gets credit for (but didn't make) that paid short term dividends is the Lowell-Beckett deal that was made by Bill LaJoie.

He also gave up Freddy Sanchez and Mike Gonzalez for two months of Suppan.

HTF do yo even remember all this junk. I'm a RS fan and I don't even remember any of it.

And trading for Suppan wasn't terrible. It was the usual "push to win it all" move that is usually not going to look so great if the talent you give up turns out to be good. See Bagwell for the classic case of that.

I do think that he's good at evaluating talent through the draft, but he's not the Midas he's made out to be, and nearly every deal that he's made via trade or through FA has ended up with him getting fleeced.[/quote]

Amnorix
08-01-2008, 11:29 AM
It's funny how people are arguing with you about your team, that you watch everyday, read about everyday--have breathed everyday for however long...AND HAVE WON 2 WORLD SERIES TITLES IN THE LAST 3 YEARS! Ah, I'd be cool with my GM if he got us to the WS twice...shit I'm happy with mine right now....

The trade didnt surprise me at all, just because I've been watching the Sox for the last week and half religiously becasue of the Angel factor.

The team seemed to be falling apart, they were unhappy and Francona looked miserable. It just seemed different this year than any other "manny being manny" year. And if its true about the players wanting him out as well, you could be right, this may turn the ship aound.

Although, I'm still happy my pitchers dont have to face him anymore--he is a monster of a hitter.;)


You're right. Manny HAD to go. But he's the best right-handed hitter since XX. Either way, he's on the downside, so I'm good with it.