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HolyHandgernade
08-02-2008, 08:54 PM
Plans to air sometime in November. I have serious doubts any of the main figures in the OT up through Solomon are historical.

Holy Moses! PBS documentary suggests Exodus not real

Hal Boedeker | Sentinel Television Critic
July 21, 2008

BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. - Abraham didn't exist? The Exodus didn't happen?

The Bible's Buried Secrets, a new PBS documentary, is likely to cause a furor.

"It challenges the Bible's stories if you want to read them literally, and that will disturb many people," says archaeologist William Dever, who specializes in Israel's history. "But it explains how and why these stories ever came to be told in the first place, and how and why they were written down."

The Nova program will premiere Nov. 18. PBS presented a clip and a panel discussion at the summer tour of the Television Critics Association.

The program says the Bible was written in the sixth century BC and that hundreds of authors contributed.

"At least the first five books of the Bible come together during the Babylonian exile," says producer Gary Glassman.

The program challenges long-held beliefs. Abraham, Sarah and their offspring probably didn't exist, says Carol Meyers, a religion professor at Duke University.

"These stories are unlikely to represent real historical events, but rather there's some kernel of ancient experience in there which has survived and which helps give identity to the people at the time the Bible finally took shape centuries and centuries later," Meyers says.

There's no archaeological evidence of the Exodus, either, she says, but "it doesn't mean that there's no kernel of truth to it."

Nova series producer Paula Apsell says she found it "extremely shocking" to learn that monotheism was a process that took hundreds of years.

"I was always brought up to believe that the minute Abraham and the patriarchs came on the scene, the Israelites accepted one God and there was just always one God and that was it," Apsell says. "I think people are going to really be stunned by that."

Another shocker: The program contradicts the biblical view that the Israelites came from somewhere else into the land of Canaan. "The film shows that they were Canaanites," Apsell says.

BucEyedPea
08-02-2008, 09:04 PM
That's odd. There was an archaeologist whose work I found after 9/11 who did an excavation recently in Egypt that showed a settlement loaded with Israeli artifacts with loads of what appeared to be baby coffins under floors. It gave the appearance of a sudden and mass departure by these Israelis. He claimed that some of the dates, due to this find, are erroneous which trips claims up. He says it's evidence of the Exodus.

But I guess if PBS says it's not true, it mustn't be.

HolyHandgernade
08-03-2008, 12:34 AM
That's odd. There was an archaeologist whose work I found after 9/11 who did an excavation recently in Egypt that showed a settlement loaded with Israeli artifacts with loads of what appeared to be baby coffins under floors. It gave the appearance of a sudden and mass departure by these Israelis. He claimed that some of the dates, due to this find, are erroneous which trips claims up. He says it's evidence of the Exodus.

But I guess if PBS says it's not true, it mustn't be.

Well, PBS didn't do the study, archeologists and Biblical Studies scholars did the research. As to the claim, do you have a link, could I be directed to something I could investigate as well, or is it because BucEyedPea said so, it must be true?

-HH

Programmer
08-03-2008, 08:09 AM
If you are reading the Bible for only historical record you have missed the purpose for the Bible. JMO, but there is more to the Bible than what most non-believers can comprehend.

HonestChieffan
08-03-2008, 09:08 AM
Next week....The walk on the moon was staged!!

pikesome
08-03-2008, 09:19 AM
Next week....The walk on the moon was staged!!

By Elvis.

Before he went back to his planet.

Dave Lane
08-03-2008, 09:21 AM
That's odd. There was an archaeologist whose work I found after 9/11 who did an excavation recently in Egypt that showed a settlement loaded with Israeli artifacts with loads of what appeared to be baby coffins under floors. It gave the appearance of a sudden and mass departure by these Israelis. He claimed that some of the dates, due to this find, are erroneous which trips claims up. He says it's evidence of the Exodus.

But I guess if PBS says it's not true, it mustn't be.

OK lets see it :)

Dave

Dave Lane
08-03-2008, 09:23 AM
I think this is so obvious the proper response should be DUH!!

Dave

HolyHandgernade
08-03-2008, 10:58 AM
If you are reading the Bible for only historical record you have missed the purpose for the Bible. JMO, but there is more to the Bible than what most non-believers can comprehend.

I don't doubt that there is, maybe if we could classify all the mythological stuff as mythological, both sides could start regarding it in a purely mystical and allegorical sense. But, I don't think the book religions are going to give up on it as history as well.

-HH

HonestChieffan
08-03-2008, 11:00 AM
I believe there are gremlins living in the underworld of Arrowhead. PBS needs to investigate that.

Thig Lyfe
08-03-2008, 11:07 AM
Next week....The walk on the moon was staged!!

It's slightly more plausible that something with no living eyewitnesses that was alleged to have happened thousands of years ago is fake than an event that was recorded and reported extensively by people who are still alive.

But other than that, excellent comparison. This is totally just another nutty conspiracy theory.

HolyHandgernade
08-03-2008, 11:43 AM
It's slightly more plausible that something with no living eyewitnesses that was alleged to have happened thousands of years ago is fake than an event that was recorded and reported extensively by people who are still alive.

But other than that, excellent comparison. This is totally just another nutty conspiracy theory.

Yes, because Fox is about the same as PBS, and scholars are about the same as laymen. Yes, excellent comparison, it all makes sense now!

Or, possibly, could it be that people have an emotional attachment to religious stories that they don't to secular ones? Oh no, that couldn't possibly be it. I mean, sure, the Egyptian "First Time", the era of Gilgamesh, the tale of Romulus and Remus, these are obviously religious myths. But the Bible characters, that's probably true. Not because we have more evidence for those versus other cultures, because its my cultural belief, and I wouldn't be duped into believing in myths. So, Abraham founding the nation of Israel and Moses saving it as cultural myths are the same as the faked moon landing. Don't tell us why its a nutty conspiracy theory, don't provide any evidence for the positive assertion, you got your beliefs, and you're sticking to them.

-HH

HolyHandgernade
08-03-2008, 11:45 AM
I believe there are gremlins living in the underworld of Arrowhead. PBS needs to investigate that.

I'm starting to believe that. Except they also seemed to get moved to River Falls for training camp as well.

-HH

HonestChieffan
08-03-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm starting to believe that. Except they also seemed to get moved to River Falls for training camp as well.

-HH

The caverns lead there, they don't have to ever come above ground.

HolyHandgernade
08-03-2008, 11:52 AM
By the way Sports Racer, my post may have come off as a response to you, it was intended as an add on to your commentary, sorry if there was confusion.

-HH

HolyHandgernade
08-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Here's an older article along the same subject lines:

The Bible, as History, Flunks New Archaeological Tests

By GUSTAV NIEBUHR

Archaeologists working at excavation sites like Megiddo in northern Israel, above, say that no evidence has been found to confirm biblical stories about a united monarchy ruling over a large area from Jerusalem or about the wanderings of the Jews in the desert during the Exodus.

The Bible's account of King David is so well known that even people who rarely crack the Good Book probably have an idea of his greatness.

David, Scripture says, was such a superb military leader that he not only captured Jerusalem but also went on to make it the seat of an empire, uniting the kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Thus began a glorious era, later amplified by his son, King Solomon, whose influence extended from the borders of Egypt to the Euphrates River. Afterward, decline set in.

Yet what if the Bible's account doesn't fit the evidence in the ground? What if David's Jerusalem was really a rural backwater -- and the greatness of Israel and Judah lay far in the future?

Lately, such assertions are coming from some authorities on Israel's archaeology, who speak from the perspective of recent finds from excavations into the ancient past. "The way I understand the finds, there is no evidence whatsoever for a great, united monarchy which ruled from Jerusalem over large territories," said Israel Finkelstein, the director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University.

King David's Jerusalem, he added, "was no more than a poor village at the time."

Statements like these have earned Finkelstein -- who is leading excavations at Megiddo, a vitally important site for biblical archaeology in northern Israel -- a reputation as a fascinating but controversial scholar. His reports from Megiddo that some structures attributed to Solomon were actually built after his reign have touched off fierce debate in Israel.

Within a larger context, what he says reflects a striking shift now under way in how a number of archaeologists understand Israel's past. Their interpretations challenge some of the Bible's best-known stories, like Joshua's conquest of Canaan.

Other finds have turned up new information that supplements Scripture, like what happened to Jerusalem after it was captured by the Babylonians 2,600 years ago.

In an interview by e-mail from the Megiddo site, Finkelstein said that not long ago, "biblical history dictated the course of research and archaeology was used in order to 'prove' the biblical narrative." In that way, he said, archaeology took a back seat as a discipline.

"I think that it is time to put archaeology in the front line," said Finkelstein, the co-author with Neil Asher Silberman of The Bible Unearthed, to be published in January by The Free Press.

His reference to past practices can be illustrated by a remark by Yigael Yadin, an Israeli general who turned to archaeology and who once spoke of going into the field with a spade in one hand and the Bible in the other.

Many archaeologists, both before and after the founding of the modern state of Israel, shared a similar approach: seeking direct evidence for biblical stories. This outlook was shaped either by their religious convictions or their Zionist views, said Amy Dockser Marcus, the author of The View From Nebo (Little Brown), a wide-ranging and engaging book that describes in detail the shift in archaeology taking place in Israel.

The problem with that outlook, she said, is that "you can't help but go in and look at material and interpret material in a certain way." And that, she added, "led to certain mistakes."

In her book, Marcus -- formerly the Middle East correspondent for The Wall Street Journal -- notes that Yadin believed he had unearthed evidence in the ruins of a place called Hazor that corroborated the biblical account of how that Canaanite city had been destroyed. The Bible says Hazor fell to invading Israelites led by Joshua.

But these days, she said, an increasing number of archaeologists have come to doubt that Joshua's campaign ever took place.

Instead, they theorize that the ancient Israelites emerged gradually and peacefully from among the region's general population -- a demographic evolution, not a military invasion.

"And that would explain how their pottery is so similar to the Canaanites', and their architecture, their script," Marcus said.

Finkelstein makes the same argument: "Archaeology has shown that early Israel indeed emerged from the local population of late Bronze Canaan."

In addition, he said, archaeology has turned up no physical remains to support the Bible's story of the Exodus: "There is no evidence for the wanderings of the Israelites in the Sinai desert."

Asked how such conclusions have been received in Israel, Finkelstein replied that they have been producing a "quite strong and negative" reaction. But the anger, he said, was coming not from strictly Orthodox Jews ("who simply ignore us," he said) but from more secular Jews who prize the biblical stories for their symbolic value to modern Israel.

"I think that the young generation -- at least on the liberal side -- will be more open and willing to listen," he said.

Still, considerable disagreement exists among archaeologists on how to interpret many recent finds. And the new theories about ancient Israel are emerging against the backdrop of a raging dispute over the biblical "minimalists," a group of scholars who argue that biblical accounts of early Israel, including the stories of David and Solomon, have little, if any, basis in history.

(This debate was recently fought out in a lively issue of the Biblical Archaeology Review, a bimonthly magazine published in Washington, in which one of the minimalists, the British scholar Philip Davies, wrote that biblical accounts of early Israel were purely theological, not historical. In response, a major critic of the minimalists, the American archaeologist William Dever, wrote that ample physical evidence pointed to early Israelites living in the region's highlands 3,200 years ago, two centuries before the time of David and Solomon.)

But if many archaeologists are far less interested in trying to corroborate the exact biblical accounts than in how the area's ancient history fits into the larger picture of the Middle East, that change of perspective, Marcus said, reflects an intellectual shift among the people doing the digging.

Many current archaeologists, she said, were born in modern Israel and don't need a link to the biblical King David to think of themselves as part of the Israeli nation: "They see themselves as part of the broader Middle East."

Yet while archaeology is challenging some of the biblical narrative, it is also adding to it. At Megiddo, Finkelstein said, he found that the period 2,900 years ago -- the century following the rule of Solomon -- was a far more interesting and powerful time for the Kingdom of Israel than the Bible says.

Another tantalizing discovery, in 1993, turned up a stele with an inscription referring to the "House of David," the first real evidence that refers to the biblical king. Still other recent excavations have provided compelling new evidence about the lives of the residents of Jerusalem 2,600 years ago, when they were besieged by the Babylonian army, and about the nearby people of ancient Judah who did not go into exile in Babylon.

Marcus said that such discoveries illustrate how archaeology can restore information "left on the cutting room floor," as it were, by those who compiled the biblical narrative. "Archaeology is giving you back all this history," she said. "So archaeology doesn't just deconstruct the Bible, but reconstructs it."

From The New York Times Leisure Section, July 29, 2000. It should be noted that "David" is the name of an old Cannaanite god, which is likely the reason there would be an inscription with his name on it. In 1975 at Ebla, Syria, there were found 20,000 clay tablets, 4500 years old, a thousand years before the biblical David and Solomon supposedly lived. These tablets contain the names of various apparent Canaanite gods, such as "Ab-ra-mu (Abraham), E-sa-um (Esau), Ish-ma-ilu (Ishmael), even Is-ra-ilu (Israel), and from later periods names like Da-'u'dum (David) and Sa-'u-lum (Saul)."

KILLER_CLOWN
08-03-2008, 10:49 PM
Scholars are worth about as much as the agenda they back.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 08:43 AM
I don't doubt that there is, maybe if we could classify all the mythological stuff as mythological, both sides could start regarding it in a purely mystical and allegorical sense. But, I don't think the book religions are going to give up on it as history as well.

-HH
Your concept of the Bible is distorted by your bias. The good news is that we have enough evidence of the existance of God to maintain our belief. Sorry about yours.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 08:45 AM
Your concept of the Bible is distorted by your bias. The good news is that we have enough evidence of the existance of God to maintain our belief. Sorry about yours.

I don't need a book to believe in God, my evidence is in reason, nature and experience, so no need to feel sorry for me.

-HH

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 08:48 AM
Scholars are worth about as much as the agenda they back.

So, do you think scholars in religious studies are backed more by agendas of believers in religion or those ambiguous towards them? Who do you really think brings in the lion's share of those donations?

-HH

KILLER_CLOWN
08-04-2008, 09:06 AM
So, do you think scholars in religious studies are backed more by agendas of believers in religion or those ambiguous towards them? Who do you really think brings in the lion's share of those donations?

-HH

More along the lines of whomever pays the money will get the answer they were looking for, i'm not referring to any particular side or sect.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 09:06 AM
I don't need a book to believe in God, my evidence is in reason, nature and experience, so no need to feel sorry for me.

-HH

Tell me how you believe in God, but not the Bible. Also, tell me how you think you can follow God without his direction. Do you have direct communication with God that precludes using the Bible? What religious group do you associate with?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

Bowser
08-04-2008, 09:15 AM
Your concept of the Bible is distorted by your bias.

And yours isn't?

Bowser
08-04-2008, 09:17 AM
Tell me how you believe in God, but not the Bible. Also, tell me how you think you can follow God without his direction. Do you have direct communication with God that precludes using the Bible? What religious group do you associate with?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

A person isn't allowed to believe in god unless he goes to a church or is a member of a religion or religious sect. Got it.

whatsmynameagain
08-04-2008, 09:24 AM
id have to say that those who believe in imaginary beings are people with serious issues. I love nothing more than when a person is in serious trouble(physically, mentally, or enviromentally, etc) and all of a sudden god swopes in and saves the day(answering prayers).you see it a lot in natural disasters. the same disasters god created.(thats what obama was referring to clinging to reigion because its all some poor saps have) didn't that same god cause that turmoil and if so does that make "him" crazy or sadomasachistic(sp)? seriously.

god might work at gitmo? ROFL!!!


Posted via Mobile Device

DaKCMan AP
08-04-2008, 09:42 AM
Tell me how you believe in God, but not the Bible. Also, tell me how you think you can follow God without his direction. Do you have direct communication with God that precludes using the Bible? What religious group do you associate with?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

There was no God before the Bible. Ok.

irishjayhawk
08-04-2008, 10:08 AM
id have to say that those who believe in imaginary beings are people with serious issues. I love nothing more than when a person is in serious trouble(physically, mentally, or enviromentally, etc) and all of a sudden god swopes in and saves the day(answering prayers).you see it a lot in natural disasters. the same disasters god created.(thats what obama was referring to clinging to reigion because its all some poor saps have) didn't that same god cause that turmoil and if so does that make "him" crazy or sadomasachistic(sp)? seriously.

god might work at gitmo? ROFL!!!


Posted via Mobile Device

What you have outlined is a great double standard. God doesn't intervene in the world if the end result is bad. Africa, national disasters, etc.

But when things of good come about, it gets attributed to god. It's a win-win for god.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 11:40 AM
Tell me how you believe in God, but not the Bible.

Thomas Paine's sentiments are probably closest to my own in this regard:

"The Creation speaketh a universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they may be. It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God."

Also, tell me how you think you can follow God without his direction.

You assume a Deity that has needs and wants like a human, I do not.

Do you have direct communication with God that precludes using the Bible?

Anyone can have direct communication with the divine, to what end they have developed that capacity depends on the talents and discipline of the individual. The language of God is silence, everything else is a bad interpretation.

What religious group do you associate with?

Any who want to be associated with.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

I don't believe he was even an historical person, so in that sense, no. But, if you mean, "Is he the archetypical representation for Christians of the divine perfected in humans", then yes.

-HH

Programmer
08-04-2008, 11:44 AM
There was no God before the Bible. Ok.

Apparently you don't have a clue as to what the Alpha and Omega represent. You have pointed out the basic difference between the hardline scientists and theologists. It's an impass that neither are willing to understand.

If you feel the all Christians believe the earth is only 6,000 years old you have made a gigantic mistake.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 11:45 AM
More along the lines of whomever pays the money will get the answer they were looking for, i'm not referring to any particular side or sect.

While I think bias plays into any research, I truly think most academics are motivated by knowledge for knowledge's sake. We can certainly pick apart arguments and point where bias may have entered the conclusion, but I think people genuinely get excited about discovery independent of whose funding it.

-HH

Programmer
08-04-2008, 11:45 AM
A person isn't allowed to believe in god unless he goes to a church or is a member of a religion or religious sect. Got it.

Your confusion is understandable, but your ignorance is beyond measure.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 11:46 AM
And yours isn't?

It may be, but not in the sense that you are trying to imply.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 11:46 AM
I don't need a book to believe in God, my evidence is in reason, nature and experience, so no need to feel sorry for me.

-HH

Where is your salvation? What is the basis for your hope?

DaKCMan AP
08-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Apparently you don't have a clue as to what the Alpha and Omega represent. You have pointed out the basic difference between the hardline scientists and theologists. It's an impass that neither are willing to understand.

If you feel the all Christians believe the earth is only 6,000 years old you have made a gigantic mistake.

As usual, you have it all wrong. You asked how someone could believe in God but not the Bible. Unless you're suggesting the Bible preexisted God (now, how is THAT possible?) then your question is flawed. If A preexists B, and B is dependent upon A, then someone can believe in A without believing in B. Just like one can believe in the Old Testament and reject the New Testament, but the other way around just doesn't make sense.

Jilly
08-04-2008, 11:53 AM
The Bible Unearthed - http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/reviews/images/unearthed.jpg

Kinda touches on this...good book if you can get past the boring language!!!

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 11:54 AM
Where is your salvation? What is the basis for your hope?

Salvation from what? Hope for what? Your question implies an obvious object to direct these items towards or from yet you do not define it.

-HH

Jilly
08-04-2008, 11:59 AM
Salvation from what? Hope for what? Your question implies an obvious object to direct these items towards or from yet you do not define it.

-HH

oh please, you know what he'll say! Salvation from hell, hope for eternal life. If only the answers could be that simple....

Programmer
08-04-2008, 12:57 PM
Salvation from what? Hope for what? Your question implies an obvious object to direct these items towards or from yet you do not define it.

-HH

If you need me to define what salvation is all about you are searching for answers from the wrong source.

Salvation is the saving Grace of God. The hope for things unseen.

Believing in salvation doesn't make me better than you, nor does your unbelief make you better than me. My faith gives me hope for eternity, yours seems to give you eternity in a box under 6 feet of dirt.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 12:58 PM
oh please, you know what he'll say! Salvation from hell, hope for eternal life. If only the answers could be that simple....

They are that simple. If you don't agree then you get to live with your decision. If I am wrong I have lost nothing. If you are wrong you have lost everything. You willing to take that chance?

BigCatDaddy
08-04-2008, 01:00 PM
Don't let them get you riled up Programmer. It really isn't worth the time or energy.

Jilly
08-04-2008, 01:03 PM
They are that simple. If you don't agree then you get to live with your decision. If I am wrong I have lost nothing. If you are wrong you have lost everything. You willing to take that chance?

I don't believe this way, that doesn't make me wrong and you right, just different. And it doesn't make my relationship with God better or worse than yours, just different. If your answers are that simple, then that is what it is for you...I'm just not in the same camp. I'm sure you can understand that.

Jilly
08-04-2008, 01:05 PM
Don't let them get you riled up Programmer. It really isn't worth the time or energy.

It's worth the time and energy for him because he truly believes that if you don't believe like him, then you're going to hell. There's a lot at stake when it comes to eternal damnation, and if he is to be true to his brand of faith, then well, he has to say those things..I think those of us who disagree should just accept it as that and quit trying to change his mind.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 01:06 PM
As usual, you have it all wrong. You asked how someone could believe in God but not the Bible. Unless you're suggesting the Bible preexisted God (now, how is THAT possible?) then your question is flawed. If A preexists B, and B is dependent upon A, then someone can believe in A without believing in B. Just like one can believe in the Old Testament and reject the New Testament, but the other way around just doesn't make sense.

I answered this once and the answer was lost to cyberspace.

God is the Alpha and Omega. He was here in the beginning and will be here at the end.

If you want to discount the Bible because it indicated the earth is only 6,000 years old you couldn't be more wrong. The Bible indicates that the earth was created in a 6,000 year period and God rested for 1,000 years (6 days for God plus one for the Sabbath). If that were physically true, God would have already rested for the 7th day (1000 years). Where would that leave us at this current moment?

Mankind was created in the image of God. By reading the Bible, Of course I know you don't believe the Bible but read along anyway, we are told of the "work week" of creation. What happened after the 7th day? Did God just stop doing anything? Did he sit back and just look at the blue marble? Man, again assuming mankind was created in the image of God, works a week then has the weekend off, which includes the sabbath. What do you do the following Monday morning? Sit back and think that your job is done forever? You go back to work to accomplish whatever it is that you do. God is the same.

It is my opinion based on reading the Bible that the earth can be billions of years old. The Bible doesn't say it is, but if you consider how mankind functions there can only be one clear answer. God continues with creation just the same as you continuing to work through the week all year, all your life.

DaKCMan AP
08-04-2008, 01:09 PM
I answered this once and the answer was lost to cyberspace.

God is the Alpha and Omega. He was here in the beginning and will be here at the end.

If you want to discount the Bible because it indicated the earth is only 6,000 years old you couldn't be more wrong. The Bible indicates that the earth was created in a 6,000 year period and God rested for 1,000 years (6 days for God plus one for the Sabbath). If that were physically true, God would have already rested for the 7th day (1000 years). Where would that leave us at this current moment?

Mankind was created in the image of God. By reading the Bible, Of course I know you don't believe the Bible but read along anyway, we are told of the "work week" of creation. What happened after the 7th day? Did God just stop doing anything? Did he sit back and just look at the blue marble? Man, again assuming mankind was created in the image of God, works a week then has the weekend off, which includes the sabbath. What do you do the following Monday morning? Sit back and think that your job is done forever? You go back to work to accomplish whatever it is that you do. God is the same.

It is my opinion based on reading the Bible that the earth can be billions of years old. The Bible doesn't say it is, but if you consider how mankind functions there can only be one clear answer. God continues with creation just the same as you continuing to work through the week all year, all your life.

You're on a completely different wavelength. I'm not talking about a time period. I'm not arguing any nuance about the age of the Earth. All I'm saying is that mankind and religion existed prior to the Bible's existence. One can believe in God without believing in the Bible.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 01:12 PM
You're on a completely different wavelength. I'm not talking about a time period. I'm not arguing any nuance about the age of the Earth. All I'm saying is that mankind and religion existed prior to the Bible's existence. One can believe in God without believing in the Bible.

Belive as you wish, doesn't make it right.

You say the Bible didn't exist before 6,000 years ago. I say that it has existed since the beginning of the earths creation. You peg the date you want to believe the Bible was first written, it still doesn't mean that you are right.

Like I said, my opinion is that "In the Beginning" did not happen 6,000 years ago.

Jenson71
08-04-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm a little rusty on the Old Testament. It doesn't take much thinking to realize there are some glaring inaccuracies in the Exodus story though. For one, it says there are half a million men in the journey. That's not even including the women and children. So, maybe 1.5 million? 2 million total?

So 2 million people walk in the wilderness for 40 years? It's just not that big of a place.

This is one example of exaggerations found in the OT. Like the Flood, and Joshua crossing the Jordan, they probably are grounded in historical facts, but the reality is different than what we read.

After all, the Jordan River does have some natural effect where it is quickly dried up allowing for an almost "miraculous" depth to cross.

And it probably did rain hard and long at one point. I'm pretty sure this is a story found in other religious/cultural traditions as well.

My classic civilization professor believes Moses was just a bastard child of the 19th dynasty who got a little rebellious.

I think the History Channel always runs a show on the Exodus as well, so that might be worth checking out.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 01:27 PM
If you need me to define what salvation is all about you are searching for answers from the wrong source.

I need you to clarify for me what you are talking about, not just leave vague questions for me to fill in the blanks. Salvation implies one needs saving from something, a something you never clarified.

Salvation is the saving Grace of God. The hope for things unseen.

Saving grace of God from what? Las Vegas was built on hope for things unseen. I'm afraid you'll need to do a little better than that.

Believing in salvation doesn't make me better than you, nor does your unbelief make you better than me. My faith gives me hope for eternity, yours seems to give you eternity in a box under 6 feet of dirt.

Actually, I plan to be cremated. So, it seems to me, you're trying to find some comfort from the fear of mortality. Is that about it?

-HH

BigCatDaddy
08-04-2008, 01:28 PM
It's worth the time and energy for him because he truly believes that if you don't believe like him, then you're going to hell. There's a lot at stake when it comes to eternal damnation, and if he is to be true to his brand of faith, then well, he has to say those things..I think those of us who disagree should just accept it as that and quit trying to change his mind.

I agree with him and do millions of people throughout the world, however arguing with atheist on Chief message boards day in and day out isn't going to do much good.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 01:32 PM
My classic civilization professor believes Moses was just a bastard child of the 19th dynasty who got a little rebellious.

I think the History Channel always runs a show on the Exodus as well, so that might be worth checking out.

Is Moses a Composite of Other Gods/Heroes?

Moses also has parallels in other cultures:

Manou is the Indian legislator
Nemo is the Babylonian lawgiver and brings down tablets from the Mountain of God
Mises is found in Syria and is pulled from a floating reed basket out of a river
Manes was the Egyptian lawgiver
Minos was the Cretan reformer

The name Moses is Egyptian and comes from mo, and means water, or uses of water; Moses meaning "saved from water".

Walker relates:

The Moses tale was originally of an Egyptian hero, Ra-Harakhti, the reborn sun god of Canopus, whose life story was copied by biblical scholars. The same story was told of the sun hero fathered by Apollo on the virgin Creusa; of Sargon, king of Akkad in 2242 BC; and of the mythological twin founders of Rome, among many other baby heroes set adrift in rush baskets. It was a common theme.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 01:34 PM
I agree with him and do millions of people throughout the world, however arguing with atheist on Chief message boards day in and day out isn't going to do much good.

I'm not an atheist.

-HH

Programmer
08-04-2008, 01:36 PM
I need you to clarify for me what you are talking about, not just leave vague questions for me to fill in the blanks. Salvation implies one needs saving from something, a something you never clarified.

Saving grace of God from what? Las Vegas was built on hope for things unseen. I'm afraid you'll need to do a little better than that.

Actually, I plan to be cremated. So, it seems to me, you're trying to find some comfort from the fear of mortality. Is that about it?

-HH

Should I have included urn? You have totally overlooked anything said.

You seem to fall into the category regarding intellect clouding the obvious. You use what you feel is proper logic to explain away the things regarding the Bible and God. Your choice, your responsibilty. I hope the best for you.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 01:37 PM
I agree with him and do millions of people throughout the world, however arguing with atheist on Chief message boards day in and day out isn't going to do much good.

He claims not to be an atheist, but he refuses belief in the Bible. I think there maybe a resounding OOPS, when the final bell tolls.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 01:41 PM
Should I have included urn? You have totally overlooked anything said.

You seem to fall into the category regarding intellect clouding the obvious. You use what you feel is proper logic to explain away the things regarding the Bible and God. Your choice, your responsibilty. I hope the best for you.

I haven't overlooked anything, you just say very little and then expect me to fill in the blanks for your vagueness. I actually offered you a way to objectify it:

Salvation and hope from the fear of the unknown.

If its something different, please clarify. You were the one who jumped in, you were the one who presumed to know my thoughts and my destiny, so don't sign off now throwing some token pity my direction.

-HH

Jilly
08-04-2008, 02:28 PM
I agree with him and do millions of people throughout the world, however arguing with atheist on Chief message boards day in and day out isn't going to do much good.

I don't think a lot of who he argues with are atheists, I just think they don't believe how he believes and I think it is he who puts himself in the line of fire. All I am saying is that if my or Holy Handgrenade's eternal damnation (in his view) rests in his hands, then it would be against his faith to NOT try and "save" us.

On a different note, I think it's odd that you, he and the "millions" of people you claim throughout the world who believe as you do actually believe you can answer, with basically two word answers, what encompasses the grace of God and act as if it is just that simple.

BigCatDaddy
08-04-2008, 02:43 PM
I don't think a lot of who he argues with are atheists, I just think they don't believe how he believes and I think it is he who puts himself in the line of fire. All I am saying is that if my or Holy Handgrenade's eternal damnation (in his view) rests in his hands, then it would be against his faith to NOT try and "save" us.

On a different note, I think it's odd that you, he and the "millions" of people you claim throughout the world who believe as you do actually believe you can answer, with basically two word answers, what encompasses the grace of God and act as if it is just that simple.

Like I said. I've been down this road and won't get into debates on this because it does no good. I will say "salvation" is more then a ticket to heaven and getting into heated exchanges on the internet is not going to save anybody. Also sometime the best sermons are lived and not spoken.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:14 PM
If it wasn't obvious, BigCatDaddy, people get into it with Tom because he comes off more holier-than-thou than almost anyone around here on this particular subject. He makes his own troubles by telling people how wrong and ignorant they are, so don't go feeling all sorry for him just because you have the same beliefs he does. Nobody is going to give you trouble for your beliefs, but if you start arguing the point with a never-wrong syndrome, you'll most likely get flamed for it, and rightfully so.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:14 PM
Your confusion is understandable, but your ignorance is beyond measure.

God hates a condesending prick, Thomas.

DaKCMan AP
08-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Belive as you wish, doesn't make it right.

You say the Bible didn't exist before 6,000 years ago. I say that it has existed since the beginning of the earths creation. You peg the date you want to believe the Bible was first written, it still doesn't mean that you are right.

Like I said, my opinion is that "In the Beginning" did not happen 6,000 years ago.

So the Bible existed before mankind? Before Judaism (Old Testament) or Christianity (New Testament)? :spock:

Programmer
08-04-2008, 04:22 PM
So the Bible existed before mankind? Before Judaism (Old Testament) or Christianity (New Testament)?

I can't say that it did, but then you can't say that it didn't exist either.:spock:

Programmer
08-04-2008, 04:23 PM
God hates a condesending prick, Thomas.

So then, he must really have it in for you.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:24 PM
So then, he must really have it in for you.

Well, aparently you'd know.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 04:26 PM
Well, aparently you'd know.

Could be, but I'm not judging you as you are me.

Take a chill pill then sit at the bottom of the pool for an hour.

I know I'll feel better.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:30 PM
Could be, but I'm not judging you as you are me.

Take a chill pill then sit at the bottom of the pool for an hour.

I know I'll feel better.

What are remarkably Christian thing of you to say. I bet god can't wait to hive five you for that one, you old fireballer!

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Oh, and I'm not judging you, Programmer. There's no depth or mystery to judge here on these boards with you. You make it quite obvious who and what you are.

Sully
08-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Um...
How was the Bible around before Christianity?
It wasn't even fully compiled/filtered down till many decades after Christ's death.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 05:26 PM
What are remarkably Christian thing of you to say. I bet god can't wait to hive five you for that one, you old fireballer!

'Gee, I'm all aghast at your insult. Now I'm the same as you!

Don't sling shit unless you are willing to get it back.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 05:28 PM
Um...
How was the Bible around before Christianity?
It wasn't even fully compiled/filtered down till many decades after Christ's death.

The old testament was around for quite a long time, but I don't want to disturb your rant here.

It's obvious that you understanding is one dimensional. You have missed the total concept, but for you that is typical. You argue about what you don't or can't understand.

Good job.

Sully
08-04-2008, 05:32 PM
The old testament was around for quite a long time, but I don't want to disturb your rant here.

It's obvious that you understanding is one dimensional. You have missed the total concept, but for you that is typical. You argue about what you don't or can't understand.

Good job.
Rant?
I asked a question.
Is the Bible the Old Testament?

I understand far more than you want to paint me as understanding. I've spent hour upon hour, and continue to study how the Bible was formed. I'd be willing to bet any sum of money I understand far more about the Bible's history than you.

Direckshun
08-04-2008, 05:38 PM
Don't sling shit unless you are willing to get it back.
Thus said Christ at the Sermon of the Mount.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 05:44 PM
Rant?
I asked a question.
Is the Bible the Old Testament?

I understand far more than you want to paint me as understanding. I've spent hour upon hour, and continue to study how the Bible was formed. I'd be willing to bet any sum of money I understand far more about the Bible's history than you.

Gee, that cements your case.

Your education and studying seems to only be a surface understanding of what God is all about. How do you put a time frame on God that is timeless? Care to explain that? When was the beginning of God? When is the ending of God? If you believe the Bible, which I question, when did mankind start according to the Bible?
To answer your question the Old Testament covered the time frame before the birth of Christ. The New Testament after the birth.

Your understanding is questionable, not the literal interpretation of the Bible, but the other aspects of the Bible that seems to have totally flown over your head.

I do not claim to be a Bible scholar, but I have read a few different translations for comparative studies.

You may have studied the book but what have you got for your effort? A superficial understanding that has nothing to do with the spiritual impact the book is meant to have.

Sully
08-04-2008, 05:49 PM
Gee, that cements your case.

Your education and studying seems to only be a surface understanding of what God is all about. How do you put a time frame on God that is timeless? Care to explain that? When was the beginning of God? When is the ending of God? If you believe the Bible, which I question, when did mankind start according to the Bible?
To answer your question the Old Testament covered the time frame before the birth of Christ. The New Testament after the birth.

Your understanding is questionable, not the literal interpretation of the Bible, but the other aspects of the Bible that seems to have totally flown over your head.

I do not claim to be a Bible scholar, but I have read a few different translations for comparative studies.

You may have studied the book but what have you got for your effort? A superficial understanding that has nothing to do with the spiritual impact the book is meant to have.

You seem to be confusing two things, but let me ask to clarify.
Are you claiming that God is the Bible? If so, please explain that.
If you aren't, then you are arguing something that I am not. I believe that God is eternal. I believe the book that we call the Bible has been around for a very finite amount of time. Those are two separate things. So, to answer your questions...
1) I don't put a timeframe on God. I do put a timeframe on the Bible.
2) I don't believe there is an ending to God.
3) I don't believe the Bible as inerrant.
Thans for letting me know the diffference between the New and Old Testaments. I knew that already, like I said, but I appreciate your trying to get me up to speed.

Which understandings of mine concerning the Bible are superficial?

Programmer
08-04-2008, 07:19 PM
Which understandings of mine concerning the Bible are superficial?

I'd say mostly all of them if you don't see further than the text you read.

BigCatDaddy
08-04-2008, 07:24 PM
I hate getting sucked into this, I think this is what Tom is getting at.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Sully
08-04-2008, 08:55 PM
I'd say mostly all of them if you don't see further than the text you read.

I'm simply asking you to specifically tell me which views of God or the Bible are superficial.
Should be easy to answer, as so many of them are, right?

Programmer
08-04-2008, 09:55 PM
I'm simply asking you to specifically tell me which views of God or the Bible are superficial.
Should be easy to answer, as so many of them are, right?

Reread your posts, you have said nothing of substance to back your claim other than to say you have read and studied the bible and have concluded that it is not true. If you read the bible and had no revelation of what God was telling you, it's superficial reading. Any comments based on that reading are not credible.

DaneMcCloud
08-04-2008, 09:58 PM
More along the lines of whomever pays the money will get the answer they were looking for, i'm not referring to any particular side or sect.

Oh, like the Catholic Church has done for over 2,000 years?

Gotcha.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 10:01 PM
Oh, like the Catholic Church has done for over 2,000 years?

Gotcha.

Isn't that what buying your way out of purgatory is all about?

Sully
08-04-2008, 10:05 PM
Reread your posts, you have said nothing of substance to back your claim other than to say you have read and studied the bible and have concluded that it is not true. If you read the bible and had no revelation of what God was telling you, it's superficial reading. Any comments based on that reading are not credible.

I read the Bible all the time. I search for God within it, and find God most of the time. I also listen to God's words through the world that aren't included in the Bible. I see the World God created and hear God's message in it. I hear people speaking and laughing and crying, and hear God's words through that.
Just because I don't believe the Bible to be inerrant doesn't mean I don't think I can find God within. I simply know the history of how the Bible was written and compiled. God's words are not fully contained in that great book, nor are all the words contained in it all definitively His. It also doesn't mean I "concluded it is not true" in the simplistic manner that you put it.
So, again, what specifically are my views that are superficial?

Programmer
08-04-2008, 10:13 PM
I read the Bible all the time. I search for God within it, and find God most of the time. I also listen to God's words through the world that aren't included in the Bible. I see the World God created and hear God's message in it. I hear people speaking and laughing and crying, and hear God's words through that.
Just because I don't believe the Bible to be inerrant doesn't mean I don't think I can find God within. I simply know the history of how the Bible was written and compiled. God's words are not fully contained in that great book, nor are all the words contained in it all definitively His. It also doesn't mean I "concluded it is not true" in the simplistic manner that you put it.
So, again, what specifically are my views that are superficial?

That is the first time you have actually given a response that shows what your beliefs might be.

I'm still not convinced you are what you claim.

If you were your antics would be very different from what they are.

I know I'm a sinner and daily fall short of the glory of God. I do, however, have hope for redemption through Jesus Christ.

You can continue on your own. I'll no longer respond to your commentary.

Jenson71
08-04-2008, 10:26 PM
Reading Programmer's posts about Christianity and God is about as enlightening as the National Enquirer.

DaneMcCloud
08-04-2008, 10:44 PM
Reading Programmer's posts about Christianity and God is about as enlightening as the National Enquirer.

Wrong.

The National Enquirer actually publishes facts.

From time to time.

Programmer
08-04-2008, 10:50 PM
Reading Programmer's posts about Christianity and God is about as enlightening as the National Enquirer.

Coming from someone that doesn't even follow the basic beliefs from his own cult, other than those that fit with his warped sense of what is right.

Worshiped any idols lately?

irishjayhawk
08-04-2008, 11:02 PM
Belive as you wish, doesn't make it right.

You say the Bible didn't exist before 6,000 years ago. I say that it has existed since the beginning of the earths creation. You peg the date you want to believe the Bible was first written, it still doesn't mean that you are right.

Like I said, my opinion is that "In the Beginning" did not happen 6,000 years ago.

ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

irishjayhawk
08-04-2008, 11:07 PM
Out of curiosity, how come Occam's razor doesn't apply when talking about creation/God's existence.

That is, when you add God into the equation you are adding an unnecessary agent. Simply put:

The universe created itself.
vs
The universe was created by God (who created himself/just existed).

Programmer
08-04-2008, 11:19 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL


For every smilies you posted your IQ fell 50 points. You are well in the negative numbers by now.

If you don't understand the Alpha and Omega you are lost. But then you are the resident atheist so you not only don't have a purpose here but are just showing your ass.

HolyHandgernade
08-04-2008, 11:38 PM
For every smilies you posted your IQ fell 50 points. You are well in the negative numbers by now.

If you don't understand the Alpha and Omega you are lost. But then you are the resident atheist so you not only don't have a purpose here but are just showing your ass.

The Alpha and Omega (not originally a Christian expression by the way) is simply a manner of expressing paradox, it cannot be intellectually discovered, it can only be known as insight. So, he isn't lost, and you don't have to be a theist to approximate it.

For the more rationally minded, a better analogy might be in quantum physics, where you can either observe the location or the speed of a particle, but not both. Saying "Alpha and Omega" would be like being able to observe both at the same time. For the more philosophically minded, its like being able to conceive of everything and nothing at the same time, for the mystically minded, the eternal and the temporal at the same time, or where even the idea of time and no time is completely ambiguous. Its not a Christian invention or a riddle to be solved to know God, its simply a way of attempting to express the un-expressable.

-HH

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-04-2008, 11:42 PM
The Alpha and Omega (not originally a Christian expression by the way) is simply a manner of expressing paradox, it cannot be intellectually discovered, it can only be known as insight. So, he isn't lost, and you don't have to be a theist to approximate it.

For the more rationally minded, a better analogy might be in quantum physics, where you can either observe the location or the speed of a particle, but not both. Saying "Alpha and Omega" would be like being able to observe both at the same time. For the more philosophically minded, its like being able to conceive of everything and nothing at the same time, for the mystically minded, the eternal and the temporal at the same time, or where even the idea of time and no time is completely ambiguous. Its not a Christian invention or a riddle to be solved to know God, its simply a way of attempting to express the un-expressable.

-HH

That's why I love this guy. Weaving the Uncertainty Principle in with a theological discussion. :clap: :clap:

Programmer
08-05-2008, 12:13 AM
The Alpha and Omega (not originally a Christian expression by the way) is simply a manner of expressing paradox, it cannot be intellectually discovered, it can only be known as insight. So, he isn't lost, and you don't have to be a theist to approximate it.

For the more rationally minded, a better analogy might be in quantum physics, where you can either observe the location or the speed of a particle, but not both. Saying "Alpha and Omega" would be like being able to observe both at the same time. For the more philosophically minded, its like being able to conceive of everything and nothing at the same time, for the mystically minded, the eternal and the temporal at the same time, or where even the idea of time and no time is completely ambiguous. Its not a Christian invention or a riddle to be solved to know God, its simply a way of attempting to express the un-expressable.

-HH

<input name="cmdGotoFromSearch1" id="cmdGotoFromSearch1" src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" alt="Go to Scripture" border="0" height="14" type="image" width="12"> Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. <input name="strBook1" value="66" type="hidden"> <input name="strChapter1" value="1" type="hidden">

<input name="cmdGotoFromSearch2" id="cmdGotoFromSearch2" src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" alt="Go to Scripture" border="0" height="14" type="image" width="12"> Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. <input name="strBook2" value="66" type="hidden"> <input name="strChapter2" value="21" type="hidden">

<input name="cmdGotoFromSearch3" id="cmdGotoFromSearch3" src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" alt="Go to Scripture" border="0" height="14" type="image" width="12"> Revelation 22:13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

mcan
08-05-2008, 12:24 AM
It's pretty obvious to me that when a certain small tribe of people out in the desert write a book about how the creator of the universe favors them over everybody else... Something must be fishy.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 06:03 AM
It's pretty obvious to me that when a certain small tribe of people out in the desert write a book about how the creator of the universe favors them over everybody else... Something must be fishy.

Tell me of this small tribe of people. Which desert?

You might want to look further.

HolyHandgernade
08-05-2008, 06:41 AM
<input name="cmdGotoFromSearch1" id="cmdGotoFromSearch1" src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" alt="Go to Scripture" border="0" height="14" type="image" width="12"> Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. <input name="strBook1" value="66" type="hidden"> <input name="strChapter1" value="1" type="hidden">

<input name="cmdGotoFromSearch2" id="cmdGotoFromSearch2" src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" alt="Go to Scripture" border="0" height="14" type="image" width="12"> Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. <input name="strBook2" value="66" type="hidden"> <input name="strChapter2" value="21" type="hidden">

<input name="cmdGotoFromSearch3" id="cmdGotoFromSearch3" src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" alt="Go to Scripture" border="0" height="14" type="image" width="12"> Revelation 22:13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

You know, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of personal experience, but if these are your retorts, then you don't know what it means either.

-HH

tiptap
08-05-2008, 07:02 AM
All the alpha omega stuff states that language, words, Platonic idea existed before the world we are embedded within. That the totality of possibilities has an existence and the universe is derived and for Christians that pre existence is sentient and purposeful.

The other possibility is that words are symbols and are distilled from existence. That ideas are derived from experience. And that there is constraints on how things could be put together and still exist but that to propose that necessitates sentient creator is false. Atomism has accounted for existence with 4 forces that define the interaction. It is pretty minimalist and provides understanding for humans to create novel matter such as nylon or acrylics. We have access to add to the natural creations because we have an understanding of the mechanics. That is a derived ability. Not an innate one.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 09:20 AM
You know, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of personal experience, but if these are your retorts, then you don't know what it means either.

-HH

Gee, I wonder what the beginning and the end is all about. How about explaining it?

You said that "The Alpha and Omega (not originally a Christian expression by the way)".

Post your references to when it may have come about. The text I referred to was from a book written a while back, whether you believe it or not.

HolyHandgernade
08-05-2008, 10:37 AM
Gee, I wonder what the beginning and the end is all about. How about explaining it?

I did, right here: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4891563&postcount=86

Are you not following along? Let me try again, then. Alpha and Omega are the beginning and end of the traditional Greek (Ionic) alphabet (like saying A to Z). In a linear thought process, one can be at both the beginning of something and later at the end of something, but not both at the same time. Saying "I am the Alpha and the Omega", indicates a non-linear expression where time has no meaning, such as "eternity". People mistakenly use this term to indicate a long period of time when it actually means "without time" or "encompassing all time" or "no time". So, its an expression to convey a spiritual concept, the terms have no intrinsic meaning other than that.

You said that "The Alpha and Omega (not originally a Christian expression by the way)".

Post your references to when it may have come about. The text I referred to was from a book written a while back, whether you believe it or not.

Well, you got me there, I can't post a specific reference to when mystery schools used the term, or when Krishna was given the equivilant title. But riddle me this...Why would a Jew I'm assuming a Jew because no one knows for sure who the author of Revelations was, would use Greek letters to convey this idea?

-HH

Programmer
08-05-2008, 10:43 AM
I did, right here: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4891563&postcount=86

Are you not following along? Let me try again, then. Alpha and Omega are the beginning and end of the traditional Greek (Ionic) alphabet (like saying A to Z). In a linear thought process, one can be at both the beginning of something and later at the end of something, but not both at the same time. Saying "I am the Alpha and the Omega", indicates a non-linear expression where time has no meaning, such as "eternity". People mistakenly use this term to indicate a long period of time when it actually means "without time" or "encompassing all time" or "no time". So, its an expression to convey a spiritual concept, the terms have no intrinsic meaning other than that.



Well, you got me there, I can't post a specific reference to when mystery schools used the term, or when Krishna was given the equivilant title. But riddle me this...Why would a Jew I'm assuming a Jew because no one knows for sure who the author of Revelations was, would use Greek letters to convey this idea?

-HH

Actually you can't post a specific reference for many reasons. What was the "language" of the world at that time? Everything I've heard was that the Greek was the standard of the day. Most educated people, Jews included, used Greek. But don't let a little history lesson stop you from your rant.

As for your disbelief that God always has been (Alpha or the beginning) and always will be (Omega or the end) is of no concern to me. Your points are taken from a secular standpoint and as so limits your abilty to use the faith equation.

I've lived on faith for a very long time, I'm not worried about your disbelief that is something you have to deal with.

HolyHandgernade
08-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Actually you can't post a specific reference for many reasons. What was the "language" of the world at that time? Everything I've heard was that the Greek was the standard of the day. Most educated people, Jews included, used Greek. But don't let a little history lesson stop you from your rant.

As for your disbelief that God always has been (Alpha or the beginning) and always will be (Omega or the end) is of no concern to me. Your points are taken from a secular standpoint and as so limits your abilty to use the faith equation.

I've lived on faith for a very long time, I'm not worried about your disbelief that is something you have to deal with.

You are getting in deep here. First of all, you need to identify your author and time of publication, because if he was a Jew who knew little or no Greek (which by the way is what most scholars think because the Greek translation that comes to us is not very refined at all) then his first language was not Greek. So don't lecture me on history unless you are willing to provide some dates. Revelation was considered spurrious before it was later accepted. But we're going off on a tangent here.

I have no idea about what you mean by "disbelief". I have a "disbelief" in that you know what you are talking about, that's about it. You strike me as someone who got a few pointers, just enough to be dangerous. I have no problem with you living by your "belief", but you really shouldn't enter debates with that as your fallback out to everything, "I don't care what you say, I have my faith". We get it. Doesn't matter what anyone else has to say, you got your certainty of faith. But, instead of resting secure in that, you try to use your faith of telling other people how "wrong" they are. Don't you see the hypocrisy in that?

"I can't prove anything, I know what I know, you're wrong". Got it, I won't bother you any more.

-HH

Programmer
08-05-2008, 11:54 AM
You are getting in deep here. First of all, you need to identify your author and time of publication, because if he was a Jew who knew little or no Greek (which by the way is what most scholars think because the Greek translation that comes to us is not very refined at all) then his first language was not Greek. So don't lecture me on history unless you are willing to provide some dates. Revelation was considered spurrious before it was later accepted. But we're going off on a tangent here.

I have no idea about what you mean by "disbelief". I have a "disbelief" in that you know what you are talking about, that's about it. You strike me as someone who got a few pointers, just enough to be dangerous. I have no problem with you living by your "belief", but you really shouldn't enter debates with that as your fallback out to everything, "I don't care what you say, I have my faith". We get it. Doesn't matter what anyone else has to say, you got your certainty of faith. But, instead of resting secure in that, you try to use your faith of telling other people how "wrong" they are. Don't you see the hypocrisy in that?

"I can't prove anything, I know what I know, you're wrong". Got it, I won't bother you any more.

-HH

The coward's backout!

Sully
08-05-2008, 12:12 PM
The coward's backout!

I certainly hope you aren't calling someone else a coward.
Do you even know what hypocrisy means?

Programmer
08-05-2008, 12:48 PM
I certainly hope you aren't calling someone else a coward.
Do you even know what hypocrisy means?

Yes, you have been showing me your hyprocrisy for several days.

Sully
08-05-2008, 12:49 PM
I what way?

Programmer
08-05-2008, 12:51 PM
I what way?:rolleyes:

Sully
08-05-2008, 12:52 PM
:rolleyes:

I'd like to know how, in the past few days, I've shown my hypocrisy to you.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 01:06 PM
I'd like to know how, in the past few days, I've shown my hypocrisy to you.:rolleyes:

Sully
08-05-2008, 01:07 PM
:rolleyes:

Can't come up with anything, eh?

Programmer
08-05-2008, 01:08 PM
Can't come up with anything, eh?

Why do I need to prove you are a hypocrite? Read your posts, here and on other threads. Top to bottom you are exactly the thing you accuse me of being.

Sully
08-05-2008, 01:13 PM
Why do I need to prove you are a hypocrite? Read your posts, here and on other threads. Top to bottom you are exactly the thing you accuse me of being.

Just one, T0m. Just point out one instance where I was a hypocrite....
...Just one.

JohnnyV13
08-05-2008, 03:09 PM
Programmer is the hypocrit.

Programmer is using his "correct" belief in God as a hammer to establish his earthly superiority over everyone else here.

He proclaims to be concerned with salvation and eternity, yet his acts (deriding the "ignorance" of others, and projecting an "intangible" truth that only he seems to understand "and you're wrong unless you agree with him") shout that he simply wants status in the tribe.

Programmer is hardly an original personality. His kind occur with tiresome frequency. Generally they are "life losers" who are angry with their lack of secular success, so they grasp hyper-conformity to some religious doctrine as their ticket to accomplishment.

The typical symptom of such an individual is their need to hold themselves above others and lack of concern to actually help them. Generally, they are the type that "helps" others by shouting the "truth" at them with a megaphone as they pass, but wouldn't hand a starving man the crust from their sandwich.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 03:59 PM
Just one, T0m. Just point out one instance where I was a hypocrite....
...Just one.

Right here and right now. I'm sure that you know that denying that you have been a hypocrite is a falsehood. Everyone that walks this earth has that capacity.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Programmer is the hypocrit.

Programmer is using his "correct" belief in God as a hammer to establish his earthly superiority over everyone else here.

He proclaims to be concerned with salvation and eternity, yet his acts (deriding the "ignorance" of others, and projecting an "intangible" truth that only he seems to understand "and you're wrong unless you agree with him") shout that he simply wants status in the tribe.

Programmer is hardly an original personality. His kind occur with tiresome frequency. Generally they are "life losers" who are angry with their lack of secular success, so they grasp hyper-conformity to some religious doctrine as their ticket to accomplishment.

The typical symptom of such an individual is their need to hold themselves above others and lack of concern to actually help them. Generally, they are the type that "helps" others by shouting the "truth" at them with a megaphone as they pass, but wouldn't hand a starving man the crust from their sandwich.

You have no clue as to what I'm all about. I have stated that I fall short every day. The only difference between me and someone without a belief system is that I know I can be forgiven.

My accomplishments in life are a total unknown to you. In this case you are using a belief of a type of person and tying that to me.

Have you ever been around when I fed homeless people? Have you ever been around when I've donated to funds to help feed the children in Africa? Are you aware that I give monthly support to a little girl in Angola?

You are attacking someone you don't know other than his arguments on a bulletin board. Before you go whole hog and judge me maybe you need to find out more about the person than his arguing style here.

I may be a hypocrite but I'm not standing in a field by myself. You stand in the same space dude.

Sully
08-05-2008, 04:11 PM
Right here and right now. I'm sure that you know that denying that you have been a hypocrite is a falsehood. Everyone that walks this earth has that capacity.

All I'm asking is for one example of me being in hypocrite in the past few days. you said you'd seen it. You said there were many examples. I'm looking for one. It's an easy question. Step up to the plate, T0m.

Jenson71
08-05-2008, 04:35 PM
I have no idea about what you mean by "disbelief". I have a "disbelief" in that you know what you are talking about, that's about it. You strike me as someone who got a few pointers, just enough to be dangerous.

Yes, I think Programmer's preacher talked about the Alpha and Omega in the sermon on Sunday, and now he thinks he can post about it in all types of conversation.

I really think Programmer is mildly retarded, but he's so hostile and arrogant, I don't feel a bit of shame in pushing him.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 04:41 PM
All I'm asking is for one example of me being in hypocrite in the past few days. you said you'd seen it. You said there were many examples. I'm looking for one. It's an easy question. Step up to the plate, T0m.

Sully, you got your answer. You are a hypocrite just by posting on this board. Your beliefs are not what you throw out on a daily basis.

Like before I'm not playing your game.

Sully
08-05-2008, 04:42 PM
Sully, you got your answer. You are a hypocrite just by posting on this board. Your beliefs are not what you throw out on a daily basis.

Like before I'm not playing your game.

How, T0m? How?
Jeez. I'm not asking you to work a Calculus problem, just to type out a simple backup to your insult to me. If it's so clear, then point it out. In what way am I being a hypocrite?

Programmer
08-05-2008, 04:43 PM
Yes, I think Programmer's preacher talked about the Alpha and Omega in the sermon on Sunday, and now he thinks he can post about it in all types of conversation.

I really think Programmer is mildly retarded, but he's so hostile and arrogant, I don't feel a bit of shame in pushing him.

You are very immature and probably more than mildly retarded. You are a so-so member of a cult. You believe what you feel important, worship idols but disregard the rest.

Would you like a CD of the sermon on Sunday? I'd bet you don't have a clue as to how stupid you sound with remarks like that.

Just go away and study your cult a little more. Come back when you can do more than just waste bandwidth.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 04:44 PM
How, T0m? How?
Jeez. I'm not asking you to work a Calculus problem, just to type out a simple backup to your insult to me. If it's so clear, then point it out. In what way am I being a hypocrite?

Lets solve your problem. You have never been a hypocrite, never said anything that even borders on being hypocritical.

Now I have to go wash my hands, I feel dirty giving in to your insecurities.

Jenson71
08-05-2008, 04:53 PM
You are very immature . . . .

Let the record show that the guy who has to create a new screen name every 6 months because he's either banned or no one likes him thinks I'm immature. The guy who can't post in one thread without sounding like a complete dumbass thinks I'm more than mildly retarded. Imagine how much this means to me.\

Meanwhile, you see a Christian thread and go on full attack mode because you are so insecure about your faith, can't defend yourself with reason, and the only real intellectual ability you have is turning on the computer and logging on this site.

Bowser
08-05-2008, 04:55 PM
Now I have to go wash my hands, I feel dirty giving in to your insecurities.

Says the guy on username #42.

Bowser
08-05-2008, 04:55 PM
Jenson beat me to the punch.

Dave Lane
08-05-2008, 05:00 PM
Your concept of the Bible is distorted by your bias. The good news is that we have enough evidence of the existance of God to maintain our belief. Sorry about yours.

ROFLROFL Dude!!! OMG

Dave

Dave Lane
08-05-2008, 05:01 PM
Let the record show that the guy who has to create a new screen name every 6 months because he's either banned or no one likes him thinks I'm immature. The guy who can't post in one thread without sounding like a complete dumbass thinks I'm more than mildly retarded. Imagine how much this means to me.\

Meanwhile, you see a Christian thread and go on full attack mode because you are so insecure about your faith, can't defend yourself with reason, and the only real intellectual ability you have is turning on the computer and logging on this site.

That may leave a mark!

Dave

Dave Lane
08-05-2008, 05:07 PM
Programmer is the hypocrit.

Programmer is using his "correct" belief in God as a hammer to establish his earthly superiority over everyone else here.

He proclaims to be concerned with salvation and eternity, yet his acts (deriding the "ignorance" of others, and projecting an "intangible" truth that only he seems to understand "and you're wrong unless you agree with him") shout that he simply wants status in the tribe.

Programmer is hardly an original personality. His kind occur with tiresome frequency. Generally they are "life losers" who are angry with their lack of secular success, so they grasp hyper-conformity to some religious doctrine as their ticket to accomplishment.

The typical symptom of such an individual is their need to hold themselves above others and lack of concern to actually help them. Generally, they are the type that "helps" others by shouting the "truth" at them with a megaphone as they pass, but wouldn't hand a starving man the crust from their sandwich.

Wow very nice and a very correct view. I think Tom really doesn't mean half the crap he throws out there but arguing with him on this topic really is counter productive.

I salute your effort and agree whole heartedly but I think Tom is like a caged animal prodded with sharp stick, the outcome is predictable.

Dave

Programmer
08-05-2008, 05:56 PM
Wow very nice and a very correct view. I think Tom really doesn't mean half the crap he throws out there but arguing with him on this topic really is counter productive.

I salute your effort and agree whole heartedly but I think Tom is like a caged animal prodded with sharp stick, the outcome is predictable.

Dave

Gee dave, If I thought you had any credibility regarding what I'm all about I might be concerned. What you have failed to realize is that I have not gotten very animated with the pile on tactics of the "moral majority" of the board.

I guess you are far above the pile on mentality here, not.

What I find amazing is that several of you have indicated your dislike for anything I post yet you hang around and get into the discussion /argument.

I might be very opinionated, and I may refuse to post links to appease most here, but the basis of my commentary is based in reality and facts.

Have your fun, I'm not bothered by the mentality of your actions.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 06:01 PM
Let the record show that the guy who has to create a new screen name every 6 months because he's either banned or no one likes him thinks I'm immature. The guy who can't post in one thread without sounding like a complete dumbass thinks I'm more than mildly retarded. Imagine how much this means to me.\

Meanwhile, you see a Christian thread and go on full attack mode because you are so insecure about your faith, can't defend yourself with reason, and the only real intellectual ability you have is turning on the computer and logging on this site.


I get this response from jenson because I refused to accept his invitation to convert to his cult. He doesn't even believe the basics of his own claimed religion.

He has no credibility here, not does he have a clue as to what started the banning of my other logins. Most times it had nothing to do with things I did, nor did it have to do with arguing with mental midgets like jenson.

Continue your tirade and see if you can get the panties out of the crack of yhour ass.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 06:04 PM
Says the guy on username #42.

Let the record be shown of my 42 logins. For no other reason than to show that you are a bald faced liar.

WilliamTheIrish
08-05-2008, 06:47 PM
Tell me how you believe in God, but not the Bible.?
Simple. Look around you. See a newborn baby. That tells me all I need to know about god.


Also, tell me how you think you can follow God without his direction. Do you have direct communication with God that precludes using the Bible? What religious group do you associate with?

God doesn't talk to me, TC. Live by the golden rule. It's all a person needs.
Direct communication? I love that.
Former Catholic. It's been a long arduous process to finally throw off the guilt they heaped upon me.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

No.

WilliamTheIrish
08-05-2008, 06:50 PM
Don't let them get you riled up Programmer. It really isn't worth the time or energy.

We need a "true believer alert". A wmv that says: Yes GAWD!!!.

Kind of like the guys who scream "Get in the HOLE" on a putt.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 07:43 PM
Simple. Look around you. See a newborn baby. That tells me all I need to know about god.

God doesn't talk to me, TC. Live by the golden rule. It's all a person needs.
Direct communication? I love that.
Former Catholic. It's been a long arduous process to finally throw off the guilt they heaped upon me.

No.

I'm not sure what your point it here. I'm not here trying to proselytize anyone, that is what jenson is doing. You have the option to live your life the way you wish. My belief is that God made us all free moral agents, free to choose our path. I also believe the Bible gives us direction that is not consistent with living only by the Golden Rule.

As for me I believe there is more to life than living the golden rule. It would be nice to see the golden rule used here more often. I could stand to use it more myself.

From all the people I've known that were part of the Catholic Church I've found that most of them feel it is a cult. I tend to agree, it is ran by men and it is my opinion that men are too fallable to be making decisions such as the ones made by the pope down to the priests.

It is also my opinion that God forgives but not through any man from any religion.

Sully
08-05-2008, 08:13 PM
T0m,
Just to make sure... This is going to be another in your long list of claims that you refuse to back up, right? The one saying you'e seen me be a hypocrite the past few days?
Just wanted to check.

HolyHandgernade
08-05-2008, 08:21 PM
I think Programmer sees himself as some kind of e-martyr, throwing himself into discussions to purposely be persecuted because it gives him some kind of fantasy he's experiencing the same (alleged) persecutions the first disciples must have gone through proclaiming their "good news". He's not even interested in discussing anything because inhis mind, the more conflict and ill-will he can raise the closer to his e-martyr ideal he becomes. If this is the same tactic his antiquity predecessors chose, I'm beginning to sympathize with the "persecutors".

-HH

Programmer
08-05-2008, 08:43 PM
T0m,
Just to make sure... This is going to be another in your long list of claims that you refuse to back up, right? The one saying you'e seen me be a hypocrite the past few days?
Just wanted to check.

You didn't want to check, you just want to keep stirring the pot. Now that does make you a hypocrite.

Enjoy

Programmer
08-05-2008, 08:50 PM
I think Programmer sees himself as some kind of e-martyr, throwing himself into discussions to purposely be persecuted because it gives him some kind of fantasy he's experiencing the same (alleged) persecutions the first disciples must have gone through proclaiming their "good news". He's not even interested in discussing anything because inhis mind, the more conflict and ill-will he can raise the closer to his e-martyr ideal he becomes. If this is the same tactic his antiquity predecessors chose, I'm beginning to sympathize with the "persecutors".

-HH

Well Holly, I think you have hit the nail on the head. You surely don't believe the shit you type do you?

I enjoy seeing how the dirty dozen spin just about every thing I say. Regardless if my opinion has merit or not all you do is go for the poster and just about totally ignore what was said.

I don't feel persecuted, I feel like the most popular person on the board, not in a positive way, but many of you have an obsession with anything related to me. I'm just amazed at how shallow your lives have to be to be on the watch for me to be in a conversation. You all need to get a life.

Someday maybe you will grow up, but I seriously doubt the generation gap will ever be spanned with your mentality.

Sully
08-05-2008, 08:50 PM
You didn't want to check, you just want to keep stirring the pot. Now that does make you a hypocrite.

Enjoy

Stirring what pot? You brought it up, I'm asking you to show me where.
Now, by asking that, how does that further make me a hypocrite?
At this point, I have to ask if you know what the word means.

banyon
08-05-2008, 08:52 PM
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/palooka.jpg

Palooka will battle anyone, anytime, anywhere - he seems to love it, even though he always takes a beating. After a terrific pounding at the hands of, for example, Kung-Fu Master, he'll just struggle to his feet and wobble back into the ring. His astonishing ability to absorb punishment leads one to suspect that during his long Warrior career Palooka has taken a few too many punches. Often, as an act of mercy, Nanny will step in to stop the fight.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Stirring what pot? You brought it up, I'm asking you to show me where.
Now, by asking that, how does that further make me a hypocrite?
At this point, I have to ask if you know what the word means.

Talking to yourself?

I'd say that you more need the definition than me. Work on it, will ya?

Sully
08-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Talking to yourself?

I'd say that you more need the definition than me. Work on it, will ya?

Talking to myself? No, you are clearly answering my every post. It seems to be somewhat 2-way to me.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 08:56 PM
Talking to myself? No, you are clearly answering my every post. It seems to be somewhat 2-way to me.:rolleyes:

WilliamTheIrish
08-05-2008, 08:59 PM
I think Programmer sees himself as some kind of e-martyr, throwing himself into discussions to purposely be persecuted because it gives him some kind of fantasy he's experiencing the same (alleged) persecutions the first disciples must have gone through proclaiming their "good news". He's not even interested in discussing anything because inhis mind, the more conflict and ill-will he can raise the closer to his e-martyr ideal he becomes. If this is the same tactic his antiquity predecessors chose, I'm beginning to sympathize with the "persecutors".

-HH

Let me help T0m out here;

bias distorted no credibility youdon'tknowme stir pot hypocrite spin opinion no merit alpha omega no clue confusion understandable ignorance beyond measure I can't say that it did, but then you can't say that it didn't exist either.

That about sums it up.

HolyHandgernade
08-05-2008, 09:02 PM
I don't feel persecuted, I feel like the most popular person on the board, not in a positive way, but many of you have an obsession with anything related to me.

When you feel like the center of attention, but not in a positive way, that's persecution. My God, I'd think you were a comic genious if I didn't truly believe you thought you made a great distinction here.

And by the way, calling other people out as lame and without a life for doing the exact same things you are doing, that again, is an example of hypocrisy. In case you were still confused with that definition as well.

-HH

Programmer
08-05-2008, 09:05 PM
Let me help T0m out here;

bias distorted no credibility youdon'tknowme stir pot hypocrite spin opinion no merit alpha omega no clue confusion understandable ignorance beyond measure I can't say that it did, but then you can't say that it didn't exist either.

That about sums it up.

I challenge anyone here to tell me anything about my life outside this bb. I'd venture to say that none of you have the first clue, nothing more than innuendo.

I'll wait for a guess from any of you.

BTW, billythemic, the name is Tom.

Programmer
08-05-2008, 09:10 PM
When you feel like the center of attention, but not in a positive way, that's persecution. My God, I'd think you were a comic genious if I didn't truly believe you thought you made a great distinction here.

And by the way, calling other people out as lame and without a life for doing the exact same things you are doing, that again, is an example of hypocrisy. In case you were still confused with that definition as well.

-HH

The only confusion here is your complete lack of knowledge of what I stand for. You make some pretty uneducated comments, but Holly, you have always been 180 degrees out of phase with the facts.

HolyHandgernade
08-05-2008, 09:19 PM
The only confusion here is your complete lack of knowledge of what I stand for. You make some pretty uneducated comments, but Holly, you have always been 180 degrees out of phase with the facts.

Facts? What facts? I really don't care what you believe you stand for, I can only form an opinion on what you say. You don't provide links, you don't provide dates, you don't provide evidence. You deal in hyperbole, and insults, and accusations. I tried to engage you in facts and discussions, and you devolve such conversations into attacks on your faith. I have no interest in discussing your faith, as far as I'm concerned, you can believe whatever you want, but your faith isn't a fact for anyone but yourself.

-HH

WilliamTheIrish
08-05-2008, 09:53 PM
I challenge anyone here to tell me anything about my life outside this bb. I'd venture to say that none of you have the first clue, nothing more than innuendo.

I'll wait for a guess from any of you.

BTW, billythemic, the name is Tom.

T0m throws down the "challenge" gauntlet. Another great tactic of the professional martyr.

irishjayhawk
08-05-2008, 10:50 PM
For every smilies you posted your IQ fell 50 points. You are well in the negative numbers by now.

If you don't understand the Alpha and Omega you are lost. But then you are the resident atheist so you not only don't have a purpose here but are just showing your ass.

Umm, I was referring to your "Bible has always existed". It's so asinine that even the church won't go along with it.

Programmer
08-06-2008, 06:26 AM
Umm, I was referring to your "Bible has always existed". It's so asinine that even the church won't go along with it.

"The Church?"

That is one of the most vague comments you've ever made.

I know of plenty of Churches that follow the Bible, but not for the reasons that you suppose. Again, you don't have a grip on what the book is for and what it is talking about.

Believe what you wish but don't' tell me that what you believe is gospel and I must honor your belief.

FTR, my comment was an opinion based on my beliefs. Which Church am I supposed to refer to so my opinion can be discussed?

Programmer
08-06-2008, 06:38 AM
Facts? What facts? I really don't care what you believe you stand for, I can only form an opinion on what you say. You don't provide links, you don't provide dates, you don't provide evidence. You deal in hyperbole, and insults, and accusations. I tried to engage you in facts and discussions, and you devolve such conversations into attacks on your faith. I have no interest in discussing your faith, as far as I'm concerned, you can believe whatever you want, but your faith isn't a fact for anyone but yourself.

-HH

I'm aware of thousands of people that believe the same way I do. Not from one single denomination. Your inability to follow the concept put out proves you are less than interested in what God has for mankind.

Programmer
08-06-2008, 06:42 AM
T0m throws down the "challenge" gauntlet. Another great tactic of the professional martyr.

Whatever you want to believe buckwheat. Again, you opinion does not necessarily have any relative merit to the challenge.

HolyHandgernade
08-06-2008, 08:14 AM
I'm aware of thousands of people that believe the same way I do. Not from one single denomination. Your inability to follow the concept put out proves you are less than interested in what God has for mankind.

You are aware of thousands of people who profess to believe the same as you do, but you cannot establish that as a "fact". You have no way to determine with objective certainty either the level of commitment as the same as yours nor that the belief is exactly the same as yours. You cannot "know" another person's consciousness, you can only form a value judgement as to the other person's truthfulness. People can lie about their belief, they can lie about the level of their commitment to that belief, they can lie about adherance to aspects of that belief, all while telling you they believe the exact same thing you do. There is no "fact" in that, there is only an assumption based on each individual's willingness to believe the truthfulness of those persons.

-HH

Programmer
08-06-2008, 01:02 PM
You are aware of thousands of people who profess to believe the same as you do, but you cannot establish that as a "fact". You have no way to determine with objective certainty either the level of commitment as the same as yours nor that the belief is exactly the same as yours. You cannot "know" another person's consciousness, you can only form a value judgement as to the other person's truthfulness. People can lie about their belief, they can lie about the level of their commitment to that belief, they can lie about adherance to aspects of that belief, all while telling you they believe the exact same thing you do. There is no "fact" in that, there is only an assumption based on each individual's willingness to believe the truthfulness of those persons.

-HH

Oh, ye of little or no faith.

You cannot "know" another person's consciousness, you can only form a value judgement as to the other person's truthfulness.

Yet you judge me based on my comments? Very nice Holly.

I wish you well.