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Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 10:04 PM
Wooptie-doo!

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/731692.html

RIVER FALLS, Wis. | Pro football, more than any other sport, is like a woman. The moment you think you have the game figured out is the very moment the game makes a complete fool out of you.

Saturday afternoon I spent much of the day thinking back to how the Chiefs arrived at this point — 20 years of Carl Peterson and an expansion roster. It can all be traced to Dick Vermeil, who was convinced he had the NFL completely decoded when he arrived in Kansas City in 2001 fresh off a St. Louis Super Bowl run.

Vermeil was positive the fast-break offense he and Mike Martz developed in St. Louis would get the Chiefs to the Super Bowl in two years at a minimum, and within five if there were small hiccups.

Well, we know how that all ended. The Chiefs detonated a lot of fireworks without generating much bang for Lamar Hunt’s bucks. The game, like a diva-ish woman, humbled Vermeil.

And the natural reaction was to enlist an old-school, by-the-book playa to fix things.

The unpredictable nature of professional football creates head coaches like Herm Edwards, a man committed to a conservative, defensive approach. Defensive-minded coaches lock up their prom dates in early December, well before Christmas, and then they spend January, February and March secretly prospecting for an upgrade.

It’s a proven approach. Year in and year out a coach like Herm Edwards is always going to have a solid date for homecoming and the prom and the same girl is likely to invite him to the Sadie Hawkins, too.

What most people never do, though, is take a look back at Herm’s dates in junior high, the third cousin from the town 90 minutes away who was driven over by an aunt just so Herm wouldn’t be dateless for the eighth-grade social.

We’re going to see her this year. There’s a chance that this year’s Kansas City defense will be as bad as any of those neglected and ignored units Dick Vermeil used to throw on the field while he and Al Saunders formulated the next set of plays for Trent Green, Priest Holmes and Tony Gonzalez.

On Saturday, I talked about all the prayers the Chiefs are hoping the football gods answer on the offensive side of the ball. Well, Gunther Cunningham is on his knees, too. This defense is a mess.

This offseason when Herm said defensive tackle Alfonso Boone would move to defensive end — basically replacing Jared Allen — I assumed Herm was joking. He wasn’t. Boone is actually lining up as the strongside defensive end at training camp.

Longtime readers of this column know that I have a hard and fast rule about 300-pound defensive ends. Except for Reggie White, the greatest defensive player in the history of the league, they stink. Reggie was a physical freak of nature. He doesn’t even really count. Years ago the Chiefs tried to make Chester McGlockton a strongside defensive end. The experiment flopped.

Boone at end will be worse. He’s a decent defensive tackle. He’ll be overmatched athletically against offensive tackles.

And that’s just the beginning of Kansas City’s defensive shortcomings. I’m not convinced Tamba Hali is a legit pass-rusher, and we’re unlikely to find out this season if he is.

Prayer No. 1 for the Chiefs is Glenn Dorsey needs to be a beast as a rookie for the defense to have any chance at survival. I don’t think he’s in good enough shape. He has been compared to a young Warren Sapp. The difference is Sapp had a totally different lower body when he entered the league. He was more athletically built. He had bounce, explosion. Dorsey has power. I’m not sure he’s a three technique. But that’s just early speculation. Dorsey hurt his left knee during the tail end of Saturday’s practice.

What I’m suggesting is the Chiefs are unlikely to have much of a pass rush from their front four.

That means they’ll need to blitz. That means they’ll need terrific play from their linebackers. They don’t have a middle linebacker. They benched Napoleon Harris. Some guy named Pat Thomas is starting in the middle. Donnie Edwards is old on the outside. There are fears he may break down. And Derrick Johnson has yet to take the next step and become a star. He’s still playing the game on pure instincts. He wasn’t taught to play the game at Texas.

Now, KC’s secondary will be improved. Bernard Pollard is in excellent shape. He’s 15 to 20 pounds thinner than a year ago, and you can really see it when he’s in pass coverage. Jarrad Page is ready to be a star. Herm Edwards believes rookie corner Brandon Flowers has a chance to be a starter in this league for a long time.

Unfortunately, the front seven is going to put too much pressure on the back end of Kansas City’s D.

This is the rebuilding year we asked for. Love it or leave it.

chiefbowe82
08-02-2008, 10:09 PM
YouTube - Voted Best Commercial in Europe

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 10:12 PM
I hate to agree with him for some reason, but he has a point. Brodie had tons of time tonight.

Fruit Ninja
08-02-2008, 10:14 PM
nothing i didnt already know about the Dline. Tamba is just going to get run at and fold over. teams are going to run on us big time. ITs going to get ugly.

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:16 PM
What's clear is that Whitlock is going to be extremely tough on Dorsey, not just this season but for his entire career. Whitlock came out against Dorsey while he was still in college, and I guess he wants to stay true to that take.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:16 PM
Anyone who previously thought that the Chiefs would win more than 4 games this year is a fool.

Asking rookies, even phenom rookies, to step in and play at Pro Bowl level for 16 games without injury is ludicrous.

If the Chiefs win more than 5 games this year, 2009 should be an Insult-Free offseason for Herm and his staff.

Because it seem that everyone outside of Kansas City realizes that the Chiefs will probably be the worst team in the NFL this year.

All we can hope as fans is that they're not the worst team ever (0-16).

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 10:16 PM
By the way, Hali was NOT playing tonight. That's kind of important?

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:18 PM
By the way, Hali was NOT playing tonight. That's kind of important?

That's a good question.

Is it?

Is he a schlub without Allen on the other side?

Does anyone actually know?

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 10:19 PM
That's a good question.

Is it?

Is he a schlub without Allen on the other side?

Does anyone actually know?

Maybe it's a moot point. Chiefs offense didn't have Albert. Chiefs defense didn't have Hali.

Tuckdaddy
08-02-2008, 10:20 PM
is wrong alot about the Chiefs. He said the 98 team would 16-0 and Priest was done the year he score 27 TD's. That's just for starters. Damn near everything he writers that's KC Chiefs related is BS. He's good at controversy opinionated stuff but actual team analogy he sucks at.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:21 PM
is wrong alot about the Chiefs. He said the 98 team would 16-0 and Priest was done the year he score 27 TD's. That's just for starters. Damn near everything he writers that's KC Chiefs related is BS. He's good at controversy opinionated stuff but actual team analogy he sucks at.

Yeah, of course you're right.

Everything in the Kansas City sportworld happens exactly opposite of the KC Star's writers.

If the East and West Coast media outlets hated the Chiefs more, they'd win a championship.

Because as we all know, that's how dynasties are born.

Through hatred.

:rolleyes:

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:22 PM
Maybe it's a moot point. Chiefs offense didn't have Albert. Chiefs defense didn't have Hali.

At this point, I think it's hard to quantify.

At either position.

ChiefsCountry
08-02-2008, 10:23 PM
I think Whitlock knows football pretty good, probally is he is the shock the water cooler columnist for the Star. His job is to stir the pot. I would like to see jwhit write just a football only take article without trying to stir the pot.

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:25 PM
Hali is a good player. He's probably a 7-10 sack a year player no matter who's on the other side. He's also a good tackler.

Coach
08-02-2008, 10:28 PM
Hali is a good player. He's probably a 7-10 sack a year player no matter who's on the other side. He's also a good tackler.

Yeah, he's a solid tackler that he has trouble on bringing down QB's occasionally.

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:31 PM
Yeah, he's a solid tackler that he has trouble on bringing down QB's occasionally.

Who doesn't?

Zouk
08-02-2008, 10:32 PM
Anyone who previously thought that the Chiefs would win more than 4 games this year is a fool.

All we can hope as fans is that they're not the worst team ever (0-16).

I don't mind being a fool - I'm sticking with 6-8 wins. It may be ugly in September, but I expect good things by the last half of the season. Teams full of young guys (Chiefs 08) typically outperform expectations while teams full of guys in their last year in pro ball (Chiefs 07) often underperform.

Boon
08-02-2008, 10:32 PM
Whitlock is so much better as a writer when he is talking about race.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:32 PM
Who doesn't?

Are you new?

Junior Siavii.

Eddie Freeman.

Eric Downing.

Ryan Sims.

Need I go on?

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Are you new?

Junior Siavii.

Eddie Freeman.

Eric Downing.

Ryan Sims.

Need I go on?


Yes, go on.

DenverDanChiefsFan
08-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Yeah, of course you're right.

Everything in the Kansas City sportworld happens exactly opposite of the KC Star's writers.

If the East and West Coast media outlets hated the Chiefs more, they'd win a championship.

Because as we all know, that's how dynasties are born.

Through hatred.

:rolleyes:
Not sure about your response - tuckdaddy was stating that fatlock only reports negative things about the Chiefs - something that has been complained about on this website for years.

I didn't see any East/West Coast media mention in his post. Did fatlock become a super national reporter?

It is pretty common knowledge that fatlock is going to dog the Chiefs until the King is gone - it has been his theme for a long time.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't mind being a fool - I'm sticking with 6-8 wins. It may be ugly in September, but I expect good things by the last half of the season. Teams full of young guys (Chiefs 08) typically outperform expectations while teams full of guys in their last year in pro ball (Chiefs 07) often underperform.

Good for you.

The loss of the Chiefs first round draft choices for training camp basically means we're watching the same offensive line and defensive line (minus Allen) from 2007.

Way to be a realist.

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:35 PM
No, I'm just saying I like Hali as a player. He is good and could get better.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Not sure about your response - tuckdaddy was stating that fatlock only reports negative things about the Chiefs - something that has been complained about on this website for years.

It was a joke. ROFL

There's a common thread around here that anytime the national media picks the Chiefs to "suck", they do well.

And of course, the opposite it true.

When the national media predicts the Chiefs to win it all (ala 1998), they suck.

Such is life as a Chiefs fan.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 10:38 PM
Yes, go on.

No thanks, Bro.

Disability insurance for carpel tunnel isn't paid through Chiefsplanet.

:D

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:43 PM
No thanks, Bro.

Disability insurance for carpel tunnel isn't paid through Chiefsplanet.

:D

Well, you mentioned all the early round d-line busts over the last 8 year so you couldn't go on. And Downing is a stretch for me as a 3rd rounder, but that's a minor point. They were awful drafting d-line (Allen excluded) under Vermeil. And their desperation to draft d-line meant they ignored the o-line which is where some of those picks should have gone.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 10:45 PM
I agree with the Boone thing, him as an end is a horrid idea...

Pollard losing weight is a great thing, he may now be fast enough to be an actual safety. I've said said he either needed to lose weight or switch positions.

Gonzo
08-02-2008, 10:45 PM
Writers always seem to know more about football than the coaches for some reason. I will always be a glass is half full kinda guy when it comes to K.C. This fat bastard needs to give the guys a chance. We've been in camp for what? A week now?

I know we probably won't be great this year but I look for them to be better than last years abortion.

Zouk
08-02-2008, 10:49 PM
Good for you.

The loss of the Chiefs first round draft choices for training camp basically means we're watching the same offensive line and defensive line (minus Allen) from 2007.

Way to be a realist.

I don't see Welbourn, Turley, Terry, Wiegmann, Dunn, Boomer or Kris Wilson in River Falls. The blockers will be different.

We'll see.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 10:50 PM
I'd just love to know how we're gonna get any pressure we are playing guys at DE that are to big with no pass rush moves, especially for a cover 2 which is suppose to be about smaller faster players.

Messier
08-02-2008, 10:53 PM
I'd just love to know how we're gonna get any pressure we are playing guys at DE that are to big with no pass rush moves, especially for a cover 2 which is suppose to be about smaller faster players.

It doesn't make sense to me. Frankly I'd rather they started Brian Johnston than do this.

wazu
08-02-2008, 10:56 PM
Every day it sounds more and more like my season tickets might get bumped down to the lower level next year.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 10:57 PM
It doesn't make sense to me. Frankly I'd rather they started Brian Johnston than do this.

Our team is obsessed with playing players out of position, we always have atleast 1 it never fails.

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 10:59 PM
Brian Johnston hasn't done shit up here.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:00 PM
Maybe with Dorsey out for a while they'll move Boone back inside and just leave him there. I hope.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:00 PM
Brian Johnston hasn't done shit up here.

Well we obviously need an end pretty bad but playing DT's at end is not the solution.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:01 PM
Brian Johnston hasn't done shit up here.

Well, is there a DE that has done as well as Boone, that isn't Hali?

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:01 PM
Brian Johnston hasn't done shit up here.

But, but, but...













Asswipes.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:03 PM
But, but, but...













Asswipes.


Jeez, what is your deal?

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:05 PM
I'd just love to know how we're gonna get any pressure we are playing guys at DE that are to big with no pass rush moves, especially for a cover 2 which is suppose to be about smaller faster players.

Dude,

What is it with these people?

They seem to think that just because players have been signed or drafted byt the Chiefs (the same Chiefs run by their mortal enemy, Carl Peterson), that somehow, someway, everything will work out.

It seems like people with knowledge of college and NFL Football on this site have been overrun with unrealistic, unknowing and out-of-touch "fans".

What the **** is up?

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:06 PM
Jeez, what is your deal?

My deal?

You mean, as in, I don't suck at the teet of the Arrowhead logo?

That deal?

As in, the infallibility of the Lamar Hunt family?

That deal?

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 11:06 PM
I really don't see where the pass rush is coming from.

I'm already feeling sorry for Gunther because I know he'll get the brunt of the criticism.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:07 PM
Dude,

What is it with these people?

They seem to think that just because players have been signed or drafted byt the Chiefs (the same Chiefs run by their mortal enemy, Carl Peterson), that somehow, someway, everything will work out.

It seems like people with knowledge of college and NFL Football on this site have been overrun with unrealistic, unknowing and out-of-touch "fans".

What the **** is up?

You don't seem to get any enjoyment out of sports, might I suggest stamp collecting?

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:07 PM
Dude,

What is it with these people?

They seem to think that just because players have been signed or drafted byt the Chiefs (the same Chiefs run by their mortal enemy, Carl Peterson), that somehow, someway, everything will work out.

It seems like people with knowledge of college and NFL Football on this site have been overrun with unrealistic, unknowing and out-of-touch "fans".

What the **** is up?

It's that time of year, I guarantee you there are alot of people that think this team is going to compete for the playoffs.

Why? I think it's because they think last year was a 1 year thing because they aren't use to it. In Carl's time here a bad year is 7-9 I think alot of them are use to that and think that's what will happen again.

The true realistic nature of where the Chiefs sit hasn't set in yet at all.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:08 PM
I really don't see where the pass rush is coming from.

I'm already feeling sorry for Gunther because I know he'll get the brunt of the criticism.

Well, that's only a decade and about $10 million dollars too late.

Feel sorry for him when he's vacationing in Turks & Caicos next year.

:rolleyes:

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:09 PM
You don't seem to get any enjoyment out of sports, might I suggest stamp collecting?

You don't seem to understand what the ****'s going on.

Might I suggest you catch up?

To 2008? Not 1990?

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 11:09 PM
Well, that's only a decade and about $10 million dollars too late.

Feel sorry for him when he's vacationing in Turks & Caicos next year.

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry, that's just the way I feel. I like the guy and I see him working his butt off. It's not his fault Carl traded Jared Allen.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:10 PM
I'm sorry, that's just the way I feel. I like the guy and I see him working his butt off. It's not his fault Carl traded Jared Allen.

Come on, Clay.

I'm really sick of people making excuses for Gunther's "lack of talent".

That ****er hasn't done jackshit in the NFL since Derrick Thomas died.

If he worked in any other performance based business, he'd have been fired long ago.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm sorry, that's just the way I feel. I like the guy and I see him working his butt off. It's not his fault Carl traded Jared Allen.

It's hard to feel sorry for a guy who asked for certain players got them and still didn't do anything, he lacks the ability to know how to use players also...we always have guys playing the wrong positions.

So far all I know with Gunther is unless we have 2 all pro pass rushers, 2 all pro corners and basically elite personnel everywhere he's not a good coordinator which is funny cause with those defenses he had that were #1 I could have called the plays 2 pass rushers 2 corners you can call anything and be good.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:12 PM
My deal?

You mean, as in, I don't suck at the teet of the Arrowhead logo?

That deal?

As in, the infallibility of the Lamar Hunt family?

That deal?

What are you talking about? This is football, it is a game. And I am a fan of the Chiefs. I am not Jack Harry or any other sportscaster where pessimism is a religion. I like the Chiefs and will hope for the best. I want every player to work out, and I'll root for them to do so. It's a game, not politics. And I'll defend the Chiefs and root for them win or lose, sorry if you are offended by that.

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 11:12 PM
I understand all of that. I also understand few coaches have succeeded with this organization recently, especially on defense. If we're turning the corner now I don't want to throw it away.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:13 PM
You don't seem to understand what the ****'s going on.

Might I suggest you catch up?

To 2008? Not 1990?

Tell what's going on. Tell me how angry I should be.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I understand all of that. I also understand few coaches have succeeded with this organization recently, especially on defense. If we're turning the corner now I don't want to throw it away.

That's probably because we've had very subpar DL play and well that is what defenses are made of.

This team needs Dorsey to develop and needs to draft an elite DE, and that's only 2 of the 4.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:18 PM
I understand all of that. I also understand few coaches have succeeded with this organization recently, especially on defense. If we're turning the corner now I don't want to throw it away.

Dude,

All I'm saying is that the last person in this organization that anyone should feel sorry for is Gunther.

If Gunther had turned around the Chiefs defense in either 2004 or 2005 and had been immediately fired, I'd feel sorry for him.

If Gunther's defense in 2006 had led the Chiefs to a playoff win in Indy, only to lose to New England at Foxborough, I'd feel sorry for him.

But we're all familiar with Gunther's personnel choices and coordinating over the years. And during that time (especially this decade) his defenses have, for the most part, sucked.

And during that time, the man has earned, on average, $800,000 per year.

So feel sorry for him, I will not.

The Bad Guy
08-02-2008, 11:18 PM
I understand all of that. I also understand few coaches have succeeded with this organization recently, especially on defense. If we're turning the corner now I don't want to throw it away.

Turning the corner?

Are you serious? The guy has been here for 5 years now and every year he says "I can feel it coming".

Coaches don't get 5 years in the NFL without producing, except if you're Gunther Cunningham.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:19 PM
Tell what's going on. Tell me how angry I should be.

If you can't figure it out on your own, I can't help you.


May your kicks always be high!

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 11:19 PM
You guys keep hating. I'll continue to watch Gunther working his ****ing ass off doing two jobs every day.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:21 PM
Gunther is the same as our Dline coach, they like to talk and scream but their all talk and no show, I've yet to see anything from Tim Krumrie that impresses me as a coach, he also have a love affair with Ron Edwards which alone is annoying.

No wonder they like each other they are the same.

Messier
08-02-2008, 11:21 PM
If you can't figure it out on your own, I can't help you.


May your kicks always be high!

You can't? Awwww because you've been so helpful up to now.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:22 PM
You can't? Awwww because you've been so helpful up to now.


May your kicks always be high!

Count Zarth
08-02-2008, 11:22 PM
Gunther is the same as our Dline coach, they like to talk and scream but their all talk and no show, I've yet to see anything from Tim Krumrie that impresses me as a coach, he also have a love affair with Ron Edwards which alone is annoying.

No wonder they like each other they are the same.

You need to come out to camp and watch him for ONE DAY. ONE ****ING DAY. You'll change your tune.

Or you could just read WPI:

Pat Thomas was right. Gunther Cunningham isn’t as crazy as everyone thinks. It was no more evident than today when he took his linebackers through drills at the beginning of practice.

Here’s what stood out – Cunningham was almost completely calm. He didn’t yell at anyone, and barely raised his voice. There were no explosions, no outbursts of anger at a missed assignment or an incorrect answer. Today, even though they were in spider pads and football helmets, and on a football field, Gunther Cunningham simply taught his linebackers as if they were in a classroom and he was a professor.

What did Cunningham teach? Well, I’m no football expert, but it appeared he was expounding upon his lesson from two days ago, informing his linebackers on how to react to motion and offensive formations.

Today, Cunningham used backup linebackers as down linemen, and also attempted to show his strongside linebacker how to blitz the quarterback efficiently, by hitting the uncovered gap at the line of scrimmage. Cunningham had his unit practice against a variety of formations – tight, wide, a tight end split out wide, etc.

But it didn’t stop there. Cunningham wanted his players to know the assignments for other members on defense – for instance, the nickel corner, or the safety, which was Cunningham’s role today, in fact.

Later, Cunningham continued his lessons in walkthroughs, and it was apparent it flowed into the afternoon’s 11-on-11 session, as the Chiefs’ defense used similar defensive calls. Someone evidently got the lesson, because Cunningham actually called one player’s performance on two snaps, “Perfect.”

TrickyNicky
08-02-2008, 11:24 PM
*sigh* When will the time come that Dorsey addresses that knee with surgery? I'm hoping it's sooner rather than later. It's going to suck if we put two years of rebuilding in and his knee finally goes completely out.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:25 PM
You need to come out to camp and watch him for ONE DAY. ONE ****ING DAY. You'll change your tune.

Or you could just read WPI:


Somehow, Bro, I don't think that nonsense that comes from Gunther's mouth would change Mecca's opinion.

Pete Carroll? Maybe.

But the "Foot Shufflin' Porter" with the consistently poor defenses?

Not a chance.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:25 PM
Maybe he's a solid LB coach, but I don't like him as a coordinator.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:25 PM
*sigh* When will the time come that Dorsey addresses that knee with surgery? I'm hoping it's sooner rather than later. It's going to suck if we put two years of rebuilding in and his knee finally goes completely out.

This is exactly why I wanted the Chiefs to avoid Dorsey.

I've said it all along.

And I hope I'm wrong.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:26 PM
Somehow, Bro, I don't think that nonsense that comes from Gunther's mouth would change Mecca's opinion.

Pete Carroll? Maybe.

But the "Foot Shufflin' Porter" with the consistently poor defenses?

Not a chance.

And as much as I like Pete in the college game as an NFL head coach he wasn't great....but I'd probably rather have him as my DC than Gunther and I think his opinions on defense would be more valid, just me though.

J Diddy
08-02-2008, 11:38 PM
And as much as I like Pete in the college game as an NFL head coach he wasn't great....but I'd probably rather have him as my DC than Gunther and I think his opinions on defense would be more valid, just me though.

mecca

u da bomb

carrol was a nicer herm

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:40 PM
mecca

u da bomb

carrol was a nicer herm

The only thing I'll say for Pete though is he is a players coach but he isn't conservative at all, he goes for it on 4th all the time, opens it up he's the anti conservative while being a D coach...

He calls all the D plays at SC still.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:44 PM
The only thing I'll say for Pete though is he is a players coach but he isn't conservative at all, he goes for it on 4th all the time, opens it up he's the anti conservative while being a D coach...

He calls all the D plays at SC still.

Truth be told, USC was absolutely ripe for the "right" coach.

Hollywood. Santa Monica. The beach. 70 and sunny year 'round.

I'm not trying to undermine Carroll's incredible job at USC but its similar to Ben Howland's job at UCLA basketball.

Ripe for the taking.

Some day soon, Miami will wake up and make a great hire.

Then it'll go over there for a while.

And so it goes...

CosmicPal
08-02-2008, 11:45 PM
The only thing I'll say for Pete though is he is a players coach but he isn't conservative at all, he goes for it on 4th all the time, opens it up he's the anti conservative while being a D coach...

He calls all the D plays at SC still.

Sorry, but you can hype up Carroll all you want, but I'll take Gunther as a DC over him any day.

Mecca
08-02-2008, 11:47 PM
Sorry, but you can hype up Carroll all you want, but I'll take Gunther as a DC over him any day.

I wouldn't, Carroll is basically Monte Kiffins protege that's who he learned from, I think he is a very good defensive coach on any level.

And yes what Carroll has done at SC was revive what should have always been, it's why I say a team like UCLA has no excuse for being shitty.

DaneMcCloud
08-02-2008, 11:55 PM
Sorry, but you can hype up Carroll all you want, but I'll take Gunther as a DC over him any day.

You do realize that Carroll won a Super Bowl ring in 1994 coordinating the San Francisco 49ers, right?

Gunther hasn't coordinated a team that's won a playoff game.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-03-2008, 12:02 AM
This is going to be Frank Gansz level bad.

CosmicPal
08-03-2008, 12:06 AM
Look, all I'm saying is that it's so easy to dump on a coach when the team hasn't been performing to the same level.

GC had a great D in the 90's because we had Derrick, Neil Smith, and an outstanding defensive backfield. He was able to work his defense because he had the players suited for it.

What has Shanny done since Elway retired? Nothing. This supposed mastermind of offensive magic sunk ever since his key ingredients retired from football. He's been trying to draft replacements ever since.

Same thing can be said for Holmgren ever since he left GB and his plethora of assistants went on to become HC's for other teams.

GC was doomed the day he came back to work under Vermeil's regime. He's been trying to mold this defense into what it once was- just like all the other coaches in the NFL who had the right players to play their schemes.

I like what I have heard from Flowers so far. I like how GC is now trusting the man-to-man again. I like how we now have big fresh bodies on the line. We still need a MLB, a DE, and we'll need another feisty DB to fill in for Surtain when he's gone. But, we're almost there. If Dorsey lives up to his potential and we can get a couple of steals in next year's draft- I believe Gunther can bring this defense back to respectability.

Shanny on the other hand, still has a long ways to go. And so do a lot of other coaches.

Mecca
08-03-2008, 12:08 AM
I don't like that GC specifically asked for a bunch of players and they have all been bums here.

DaneMcCloud
08-03-2008, 12:09 AM
Look, all I'm saying is that it's so easy to dump on a coach when the team hasn't been performing to the same level.

GC had a great D in the 90's because we had Derrick, Neil Smith, and an outstanding defensive backfield. He was able to work his defense because he had the players suited for it.

What has Shanny done since Elway retired? Nothing. This supposed mastermind of offensive magic sunk ever since his key ingredients retired from football. He's been trying to draft replacements ever since.

Same thing can be said for Holmgren ever since he left GB and his plethora of assistants went on to become HC's for other teams.



Dude, give me ****ing break.

"All Holmgren's done" is build a perennial loser into a perennial winner and take that team to the Super Bowl.

Comparing Shanahan to Gunther is like comparing Marty to Dave Adolph.

JFC.

CosmicPal
08-03-2008, 12:14 AM
Dude, give me ****ing break.

"All Holmgren's done" is build a perennial loser into a perennial winner and take that team to the Super Bowl.

Comparing Shanahan to Gunther is like comparing Marty to Dave Adolph.

JFC.

Dude, why don't YOU just lighten the **** up, all right. I'm not making comparisons other than the fact that ALL coaches live and die by the players they have around them. A player may fit ideally with one system, yet flop in another.

Damn dude...just like Messier was saying earlier- you've got a serious chip on your shoulder.

You want to be arrogant, fine. You just don't have to be such a dickweed.

Messier
08-03-2008, 12:15 AM
I don't like that GC specifically asked for a bunch of players and they have all been bums here.

I've never really trusted GC as a talent evaluator, and that wasn't his forte even as head coach. His mantra of give me a guy and I'll make him into a football player now rings hollow

DaneMcCloud
08-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Dude, why don't YOU just lighten the **** up, all right. I'm not making comparisons other than the fact that ALL coaches live and die by the players they have around them. A player may fit ideally with one system, yet flop in another.

Damn dude...just like Messier was saying earlier- you've got a serious chip on your shoulder.

You want to be arrogant, fine. You just don't have to be such a dickweed.

How am I being arrogant by pointing out the Pete Carroll has won a Super Bowl ring as a defensive coordinator? I didn't even mention the fact that he's won multiple national championships as USC?

I'll ask you: What the **** has Gunther ever won?

Let's talks FACTS.

Not your stupid bullshit opinions of me or anyone else involved in this conversation.

Typical ****ing loser fan: Attack the messenger.

CosmicPal
08-03-2008, 12:18 AM
How am I being arrogant by pointing out the Pete Carroll has won a Super Bowl ring as a defensive coordinator? I didn't even mention the fact that he's won multiple national championships as USC?

I'll ask you: What the **** has Gunther ever won?

Let's talks FACTS.

Not your stupid bullshit opinions of me or anyone else involved in this conversation.

Typical ****ing loser fan: Attack the messenger.

Everyone's a loser to you, Dane. It shows.

DaneMcCloud
08-03-2008, 12:22 AM
Everyone's a loser to you, Dane. It shows.

Inferiority complex?

DaneMcCloud
08-03-2008, 12:23 AM
Everyone's a loser to you, Dane. It shows.

Because I'm the dumb**** who said that Holmgren's done nothing?

Or Carroll?

All the while, Gunther's been a ****ing stud, yet I won't admit it?

JFC.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You're SUCH a realist and soooo ****ing cool.

CosmicPal
08-03-2008, 12:23 AM
Inferiority complex?

:D

Nice comeback. :clap:

Seriously...that's good. I like that.

DaneMcCloud
08-03-2008, 12:25 AM
:D

Nice comeback. :clap:

Seriously...that's good. I like that.

I'm confused.

Are you baiting me or agreeing with me?

As far as I know (and that may not mean much), I never knew you to have a problem with me.

Or course, there's a first time for everything. :evil:

CosmicPal
08-03-2008, 12:32 AM
I'm confused.

Are you baiting me or agreeing with me?

As far as I know (and that may not mean much), I never knew you to have a problem with me.

Or course, there's a first time for everything. :evil:

Not baiting you at all. I sincerely thought it was a great comeback.

And I don't have any beef with you. I'm just surprised by your attitude tonight. Or maybe I just need to fix me another drink and take a deep breath myself.

DaneMcCloud
08-03-2008, 12:34 AM
Not baiting you at all. I sincerely thought it was a great comeback.

And I don't have any beef with you. I'm just surprised by your attitude tonight. Or maybe I just need to fix me another drink and take a deep breath myself.

It's all good, Brough.

I don't hold anything personal, especially on a Saturday night.

As far as my attitude, I'm a little bitter mixed with a little realistic.

So fire away!

:D

alanm
08-03-2008, 01:00 AM
We all know the Chiefs took it in the nuts with injuries to Albert and Dorsey the last couple of days. But Am I the only one here who actually believes that the Chiefs defense will improve this year?
Call me crazy.
Just remember it's Whitlock's opinion on the defense you guys are taking as gospel. His opinions are hitting the Mendoza line in reality.

DT58HOF
08-03-2008, 01:06 AM
It was a joke. ROFL

There's a common thread around here that anytime the national media picks the Chiefs to "suck", they do well.

And of course, the opposite it true.

When the national media predicts the Chiefs to win it all (ala 1998), they suck.

Such is life as a Chiefs fan.

so i have seen a few places we are anywhere from 28-32 so we're gonna win it all? SUPER BOWL HERE I COME, i'm gonna charter my flight!!ROFL

alanm
08-03-2008, 01:10 AM
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Uhhhh why won't it embed?
DaFace disabled embedding. Read the sticky at the top of the forum.

Mojo Rising
08-03-2008, 01:22 AM
I heard the Dan Patrick Show after Whitlock said he didn't know anything about football. There were a few references to football quizzes of Patrick vs. the Whit. Anyone know what happened about that?

I would put my money on Patrick.

I have never found Whitlock to that knowledgeable about the game. He uses his press pass to get info that we wouldn't get and sprinkles it into his columns to give him credibility.

He is also a hypocrite. How many times have you seen him roast players for their indiscretions or laziness? Then flip off fans in New England or apologize for a bad article about European players?

He should have been ran out of KC a long time ago. The problem was that the Chiefs were good and his columns sold papers at the time because the controversy was fresh.

Thank god Whit does his Rome fill in shows from Indy. What an embarrassment. Lets hope the nation views him as being from Indy instead of KC.

Plus, he likes Gates. Who in KC lists Gates as their favorite BBQ joint?

JuicesFlowing
08-03-2008, 06:04 AM
Turning the corner?

Are you serious? The guy has been here for 5 years now and every year he says "I can feel it coming".

Coaches don't get 5 years in the NFL without producing, except if you're Gunther Cunningham.

I posted a thread about this very topic, and everyone ****ing crushed me for it. I basically said it was amazing that Gun has survived so many regime changes with one organization. I wasn't necessarily sticking up for the guy. People missed the point entirely.

tomahawk kid
08-03-2008, 06:20 AM
Come on, Clay.

I'm really sick of people making excuses for Gunther's "lack of talent".

That ****er hasn't done jackshit in the NFL since Derrick Thomas died.

If he worked in any other performance based business, he'd have been fired long ago.

Ding, ding, ding.

Like I've said before, I think Gunt is borderline retarded and he's definitely living off a job he did 10-12 years ago.

Mojo Rising
08-03-2008, 06:37 AM
Gun is a good Coordinator but he has not talent. He had 2 40 year old CB's and a head coach who has a completly different scheme (cover 2 vs. attack.)

When he had talent and the autonomy to scheme he could get away with creating mismatches. Now, he is on the recieving end of being mismatched and out-skilled.

Our only good player since his return is a DE. How much scheming can you expect him to do?

He is a good coach for attacking with talent. Maybe not the best coach trying to prevent (cover 2.)

milkman
08-03-2008, 06:47 AM
*sigh* When will the time come that Dorsey addresses that knee with surgery? I'm hoping it's sooner rather than later. It's going to suck if we put two years of rebuilding in and his knee finally goes completely out.

Wasn't it the other knee that he injured in college?

the Talking Can
08-03-2008, 06:55 AM
Gunther is a dumbass.

I can not wait until his sorry excuse making ass is cut.



Where would you rank the Chiefs coaching staff?

Bottom 5...easy

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 07:31 AM
5+ wins = miracle

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 07:36 AM
If he worked in any other performance based business, he'd have been fired long ago.Wait, this is the Chiefs' organization you are talking about. You are allowed to be completely inept for 19 seasons(Carl), and still keep your job.

Messier
08-03-2008, 07:48 AM
Wait, this is the Chiefs' organization you are talking about. You are allowed to be completely inept for 19 seasons(Carl), and still keep your job.

Completely inept for 19 seasons? I hate Carl Peterson as much as the next guy, but he wasn't inept for 19 seasons, more like the last 10. He should have gone when Vermeil left, that was the right time to go.

KCJohnny
08-03-2008, 07:50 AM
Gun is a good Coordinator but he has not talent. He had 2 40 year old CB's and a head coach who has a completly different scheme (cover 2 vs. attack.)

When he had talent and the autonomy to scheme he could get away with creating mismatches. Now, he is on the recieving end of being mismatched and out-skilled.

Our only good player since his return is a DE. How much scheming can you expect him to do?

He is a good coach for attacking with talent. Maybe not the best coach trying to prevent (cover 2.)

How many teams have former Head Coaches as their offensive and defensive coordinators?

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 07:52 AM
You guys keep hating. I'll continue to watch Gunther working his ****ing ass off doing two jobs every day.You can work your ass off all day. Doesn't mean you are any good at what you do...

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 07:54 AM
Completely inept for 19 seasons? I hate Carl Peterson as much as the next guy, but he wasn't inept for 19 seasons, more like the last 10. He should have gone when Vermeil left, that was the right time to go.3 play off wins in 19 seasons. Horrid.

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 08:00 AM
You need to come out to camp and watch him for ONE DAY. ONE ****ING DAY. You'll change your tune.

[/B]Dude. The Chiefs had some very good defenses with some great players. Great coaches make good players play great. Gun is done.

Mojo Rising
08-03-2008, 08:03 AM
How many teams have former Head Coaches as their offensive and defensive coordinators?


I don't know. But what does that have to do with the fact that Gun is a good D Coordinator with attacking talent and a head coach that doesn't believe in cover 2?

The skill set required to succeed as a coordinator is different than succeeding as a HC.

Mojo Rising
08-03-2008, 08:04 AM
Dude. The Chiefs had some very good defenses with some great players. Great coaches make good players play great. Gun is done.


Other than Allen who was a great player?

cdcox
08-03-2008, 08:06 AM
How many teams have former Head Coaches as their offensive and defensive coordinators?

I'd rather have future head coaches as coordinators (smart young guys on the upswing of their careers with fresh ideas) than former head coaches (guys who've been around and are using the same old schemes they used 10 or 15 years ago).

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 08:10 AM
How many teams have former Head Coaches as their offensive and defensive coordinators?Yeah, stupid isn't it?

BigMeatballDave
08-03-2008, 08:14 AM
Other than Allen who was a great player?I was talking about Thomas and Smith in the '90s.

TEX
08-03-2008, 08:34 AM
Whitlock is correct. This just might be the worst Chiefs team ever. If that proves to be the case and they again progressively get worse as the season goes on, Herm needs to go.

Braincase
08-03-2008, 08:41 AM
Initially, I was optimistic about the possibility of a 6 win season. Now we'll be luck to repeat last years record.

Messier
08-03-2008, 09:01 AM
3 play off wins in 19 seasons. Horrid.

Ah well, this is where we differ. I blame those losses on the coaches. I guess you could say and who hired those coaches, and you'd be right. Ah screw it, I don't want to defend Peterson.

Mojo Rising
08-03-2008, 09:24 AM
I was talking about Thomas and Smith in the '90s.

How did a coach make them great players? They were already great.

If a great coach can make ordinary players great, how do you explain Bill Walshs stint at Stanford? He was probalbly one of the greatest Coaches ever.

Boon
08-03-2008, 09:43 AM
Initially, I was optimistic about the possibility of a 6 win season. Now we'll be luck to repeat last years record.

Yep. And those draft wizards at One Arrowhead Drive should be preparing for some more high draft picks they can fu*k up.

Thig Lyfe
08-03-2008, 10:51 AM
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Chiefs Pantalones
08-03-2008, 11:11 AM
If the Chiefs are terrible again this year, whether there are injuries that cause that or not, I don't see Clark taking that again. The fans will be pissed more than ever before. This could be Herm and Carl's last year.

Messier
08-03-2008, 11:25 AM
If the Chiefs are terrible again this year, whether there are injuries that cause that or not, I don't see Clark taking that again. The fans will be pissed more than ever before. This could be Herm and Carl's last year.

You could be right, if the Chiefs are showing no improvement, and seem to be getting worse as the season goes on. But they could have a worse record than last year and Herm could be back if they are getting better.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-03-2008, 11:30 AM
You could be right, if the Chiefs are showing no improvement, and seem to be getting worse as the season goes on. But they could have a worse record than last year and Herm could be back if they are getting better.

Even if we show improvement, I don't see Herm and Carl coming back next year. It's gonna be tough for the team they have put together to improve. I just think Clark will have no choice if we lose 10 plus games to make changes. If he doesn't, he can expect blackouts all next year, and season ticket holders becoming former season ticket holders.

Messier
08-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Even if we show improvement, I don't see Herm and Carl coming back next year. It's gonna be tough for the team they have put together to improve. I just think Clark will have no choice if we lose 10 plus games to make changes. If he doesn't, he can expect blackouts all next year, and season ticket holders becoming former season ticket holders.

They will lose at least 10 games this year, and I don't know if Hunt has a choice but to stick with the plan. I think next year they could get even younger, and they will continue to build through the draft. It's a good plan, much better than through free agency. That's why Herm will get a chance with these picks, probably for this and next year. If by 09 they aren't fighting for a playoff spot I think Herm is in big trouble.

Mojo Rising
08-03-2008, 11:54 AM
Even if we show improvement, I don't see Herm and Carl coming back next year. It's gonna be tough for the team they have put together to improve. I just think Clark will have no choice if we lose 10 plus games to make changes. If he doesn't, he can expect blackouts all next year, and season ticket holders becoming former season ticket holders.

Carl will be here to see the stadium renovation through and then hand pick his successor. Clarks chance to put his foot down and make changes was last year. Clarks job is to oversee the cash cow for the trustees (his relatives) that cash the Chiefs check.

dirk digler
08-03-2008, 12:06 PM
Even if we show improvement, I don't see Herm and Carl coming back next year. It's gonna be tough for the team they have put together to improve. I just think Clark will have no choice if we lose 10 plus games to make changes. If he doesn't, he can expect blackouts all next year, and season ticket holders becoming former season ticket holders.

I totally agree and I hope we lose at least 10-14 games so we can clean house once and for all.