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Nightfyre
08-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation

By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports 1 hour, 47 minutes ago

Yahoo! Sports

KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Ozzie Guillen earned himself an almost certain suspension Sunday afternoon. He told a dirty little secret.

“I’ve hit people before on purpose,” said Guillen, the Chicago White Sox manager, after a game Sunday in which umpires levied a suspect ejection in the fifth inning of a blowout when Chicago reliever D.J. Carrasco hit Kansas City’s Miguel Olivo with the bases loaded and incited a bench-emptying square dance.

“Yes I have,” Guillen continued. “Because that’s my job. Protect my players.”

Managers know better than to admit publicly one of baseball’s most unsavory truths, that a select number of hit-by-pitches registered each year come laced with intent. The purpose pitch – or the purpose hit, in these instances – is simply a part of baseball, and whether it’s to keep a batter from getting too comfortable or avenge some kind of perceived misdeed, it will never go away, no matter how much Major League Baseball tries to police its game.

Baseball sees this as the type of thing reserved for hockey, or Ron Artest, which is why it likely will drop the hammer on Guillen sometime this week. And yet as he continued his rant following the White Sox’s 14-3 loss that dropped them out of first place in the American League Central for the first time since May 16, a kernel of truth revealed itself. This wasn’t a typical Ozzie blowup, full of misguided fire and silly brimstone, a mouth shooting out Silly String. He made mountains of sense, and his point is something that baseball ought to consider instead of condemn.

“Sometimes people have to have a little bit of common sense,” Guillen said. “I’m talking about the umpires, I’m not talking about Olivo.”

Well, Olivo needs it, too. He charged the mound after getting hit in the hand with the bases loaded in a blowout game by a pitcher whose fastball doesn’t touch 90 mph on a fast gun.

All of which relates back to Sunday’s home-plate umpire Tim Timmons and crew chief Gary Cederstrom. Dusting a batter is not black and white. However basic and brute the act, it takes a fair amount of consideration.

Who do you hit? Where do you hit him? Why do you hit him? When do you hit him?

“You think I’m going to bring somebody in to hit somebody and they’re going to throw a fastball 82 (mph) at the hands?” Guillen said. “I’m going to bring in my best guy and make sure he gets it done. That’s Major League Baseball. That’s baseball. That’s the baseball I grew up with. Not the (expletive) they play right now.”

By his best guy, Guillen said he meant Octavio Dotel or Matt Thornton, both of whom throw 95 mph. Carrasco is a sinkerball pitcher, and with one out and a slow-running free swinger at the plate, he threw three consecutive pitches inside trying to induce a double-play ball. Even Ozzie isn’t twisted enough to call for a retaliation pitch with the bases loaded just so he can cloak it with a good excuse.

Context counts.

An umpires’ biggest weakness – and this goes from the best (Tim McClelland) to the worst (C.B. Bucknor) – is delineating between pitching inside and throwing at a hitter.

Don’t cast this as an indictment on the whole lot. By and large, umpires are very good at their jobs. They get the vast majority of calls correct, employ consistent strike zones and remain strong in big moments. While failure is minimal, the scrutiny that results is exponentially worse.

Still, the tack baseball takes toward hit batsmen often inflames situations rather than extinguish them. Cederstrom explained that Carrasco’s three pitches were “up and in.” The pitch that hit Olivo nicked him on the wrist, which might be in but wasn’t up enough to arouse any suspicion.

“If he would’ve hit me with the first pitch, I would’ve been happy to take first base,” Olivo admitted. “But three times inside? It’s just so obvious.”

Actually, it wasn’t obvious at all, though emotions and memories and feelings tend to scuttle the truth in these situations. Guillen said Royals pitchers hit the White Sox six or seven times in a series in late July. It was five. And Olivo said Chicago had hit him three times this season. Carrasco’s was the second.

Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye.

Carrasco missed. So much for Ozzie calling on his big guns.

If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt.

“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”

Guillen didn’t stop there, and by the end, he had spent eight minutes bloviating on right and wrong. Whether he’s the correct emissary for such a conversation is dubious. In 2006, Guillen sent rookie reliever Sean Tracey into a game specifically to plunk Hank Blalock. Tracey missed. Guillen went bonkers. Tracey cried. Guillen shipped him to the minors the next day.

He hasn’t been back.

Credibility problems aside, Guillen’s honesty – or, perhaps better, forthrightness – does buy him some capital. He is right: Richie Garcia, the umpire supervisor at Kauffman Stadium, should be embarrassed. Had Olivo not charged the mound, Carrasco probably would not have been ejected. The umpires reacted poorly in concert with Olivo’s doing so.

The fact is, fights in baseball happen. Umpires may cut down on them by thumbing pitchers who throw inside, but the game, too, suffers. Players tend to police themselves. Unless they start throwing at each other’s heads – and with so much money at stake, that simply doesn’t happen anymore – umpires should be instructed to back off.

Fat chance. Status quo reigns. Guillen will get suspended. Same with Olivo, Carrasco and Royals starter Zack Greinke, who plunked Nick Swisher in the hip with a retaliation pitch (which, naturally, he denied). We’ll see more subterfuge and refutations and nastiness, because, as Guillen said, “I signed a five-year deal with this organization, and we play Kansas City a lot.”

And the dirty little secret is out.








**** 'em. Plunk off the get go in our next series.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-03-2008, 10:26 PM
Next game they play, have the Royals pitcher put one between Quentin's shoulder blades.

Coach
08-03-2008, 10:30 PM
Next game they play, have the Royals pitcher put one between Quentin's shoulder blades.

Shit, I'd go as far as having someone planting right at Ozzie himself.

tk13
08-03-2008, 10:30 PM
I really don't care. A lot of armchair QB'ing by people who did not watch the game. Dude comes into a the 2nd blowout in a row, and throws three straight pitches at a guy's head. I don't blame Olivo at all.

Heck, Hawk and DJ are the biggest homers on the planet, and they said they didn't blame Olivo either.

KCUnited
08-03-2008, 10:32 PM
There was no question he order the bean today. Bases loaded, new pitcher, down by 10, Olivo spun out of the first one, plunked by the second. I laughed my ass off when Grienke threw the heat right into Swisher, dude couldn't stand up for 3 minutes let along charge the mound. **** ozzie and the mlb raiders.

Ari Chi3fs
08-03-2008, 10:32 PM
Funny, I always thought Major League Baseball's best umpire was Don Denkinger?!??

:shrug:

Nightfyre
08-03-2008, 10:32 PM
I really don't care. A lot of armchair QB'ing by people who did not watch the game. Dude comes into a the 2nd blowout in a row, and throws three straight pitches at a guy's head. I don't blame Olivo at all.

Heck, Hawk and DJ are the biggest homers on the planet, and they said they didn't blame Olivo either.

I watched and I agree. Olivo must have suspicions of Guillen particularly because hes been plunked by them THREE times in his limited career. I can't WAIT to see the next series against the sox.

I also find it ironic that Guillen has a problem with Teahen bunting up 6-0.

Coach
08-03-2008, 10:34 PM
I watched and I agree. Olivo must have suspicions of Guillen particularly because hes been plunked by them THREE times in his limited career. I can't WAIT to see the next series against the sox.

I also find it ironic that Guillen has a problem with Teahen bunting up 6-0.

Well, the bunting issue is soley on Hillman. Hillman, for whatever reason, loves to bunt more than he normally should allow.

SPATCH
08-03-2008, 10:38 PM
after grienke hit swisher i was literally lawl-ing... i just started imagining grienke in the dug out after the brawl mumbling to himself in that awkward voice of his about how he was going to plunk someone. he waited until they got one person up in the pen, then dialed it up. hilarious

KCUnited
08-03-2008, 10:39 PM
Ozzie doesn't realize that a 6 run lead by the Royals is a 2 run lead by any other team. The bunt attempt was justified. Its funny how his dumb ass says its ridiculous to bring in Carrasco to hit Olivo, but then admits he brought Carrasco in earlier in the year to intentionally hit Butler. This guys a fool, **** ozzie.

Nightfyre
08-03-2008, 10:40 PM
after grienke hit swisher i was literally lawl-ing... i just started imagining grienke in the dug out after the brawl mumbling to himself in that awkward voice of his about how he was going to plunk someone. he waited until they got one person up in the pen, then dialed it up. hilarious

ROFL... Imagine if he just got it way up there. The announcers "HOLY SHIT. That was 105 on the gun." Along that line of thinking, I wonder how many people Nolan Ryan plunked. I also wonder when we will see a pitcher match his velocity ever again.

Pitt Gorilla
08-03-2008, 10:42 PM
Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye.

Carrasco missed. So much for Ozzie calling on his big guns.Doesn't that punch a bit of a hole in Passan's argument that Olivo wasn't hit on purpose?

Skip Towne
08-03-2008, 10:42 PM
Anyone who saw Tony Conigliaro's face after being hit would never condone the intentional bean ball. You could see the impression of the balls stitches in his badly swollen face. Anybody got a pic of that?

BigRock
08-03-2008, 10:51 PM
Its funny how his dumb ass says its ridiculous to bring in Carrasco to hit Olivo, but then admits he brought Carrasco in earlier in the year to intentionally hit Butler. This guys a fool, **** ozzie.

Not only does it make Ozzie look stupid, this doesn't exactly reflect well on Jeff Passan.

markk
08-03-2008, 10:53 PM
it was obvious what happened. royals were up big, were bunting, and guillen didn't like it. there's no way someone gets 3 pitches in a row up by their chin on accident.

the only strange thing about that is that carassco needed 3 pitches to actually hit him.

i wonder if zack retaliated on orders or on his own. that pitch he threw was not something that slipped or whatever. it was a straight fastball right at the guy's hip.

guillen is stupid, anyway. they have a lot to lose right now for getting into a pissing match with a last place team. people can get hurt or suspended or whatever. what happens if he loses a key player over this? what a moron.

alanm
08-03-2008, 11:04 PM
Shit, I'd go as far as having someone planting right at Ozzie himself.
I bet that would shake the dugout up a little.
Have the Royals pitcher throw right at Ozzie first pitch. Bet they would swarm the field like hornets. ROFL

KCUnited
08-03-2008, 11:05 PM
i wonder if zack retaliated on orders or on his own. that pitch he threw was not something that slipped or whatever. it was a straight fastball right at the guy's hip.

guillen is stupid, anyway. they have a lot to lose right now for getting into a pissing match with a last place team. people can get hurt or suspended or whatever. what happens if he loses a key player over this? what a moron.

Last time Zack faced Swisher he went 1 for 3 with a bb and 2 so. I personally think Zack was done, knew he'd get tossed, and beaned the guy.

Second, we are not a last place team.

alanm
08-03-2008, 11:08 PM
Well, the bunting issue is soley on Hillman. Hillman, for whatever reason, loves to bunt more than he normally should allow.
He's still trying to manage like he's still in Japan. His ballclub last year couldn't hit worth a shit either. Last 2 games excluded. It's all he knows what to do with a weak hitting ball team. You bunt a lot and play small ball.

irishjayhawk
08-03-2008, 11:10 PM
Anyone who saw Tony Conigliaro's face after being hit would never condone the intentional bean ball. You could see the impression of the balls stitches in his badly swollen face. Anybody got a pic of that?

I can attest to that. I got hit and fractured my sinus bone. The laces were clearly visible.

leviw
08-03-2008, 11:12 PM
The Olivo grudge goes back to June 4 when Dotel hit Olivo and Olivo slammed the bat down and almost hit Pierzynski. I thought it was pretty obvious the order was given to Carrasco from Guillen to hit Olivo today. From the first two pitches, it looked like Carrasco was hesitant to hit him.

Then when he finally did get hit, I think Olivo knew where the order came from and headed to the mound with no intention of taking on Carrasco -- that was a weak mound charge -- but wasn't quick enough to pull a Brian McRae and take after the manager in the dugout.

I think Zack was doing what any ace should and standing up for his team, taking the ejection and moving on. I'd think he'd be a scrappy one if it came to blows.

KCUnited
08-03-2008, 11:16 PM
I always thought it'd be cool to see a pick off move to 1st and intentional bean the opposing teams 1st base coach. Just to draw the line.

Nzoner
08-03-2008, 11:24 PM
Second, we are not a last place team.

word :toast:

SPchief
08-03-2008, 11:47 PM
According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

SPATCH
08-03-2008, 11:51 PM
According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

john kruk is highly regarded for his extensive baseball knowledge and overall wisdom















uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....... nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooottttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Bowser
08-03-2008, 11:58 PM
According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

According to Stuart Scott on Sportscenter, Olivo had four hits for the Royals at the plate, and got his fifth hit when he cracked Pierzdouche in the head.

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 12:00 AM
It was intentional, guillens a dirty little bitch of a manager anyway...

I don't remember him being a player like that though, he sure does have a big mouth...

Teahen should know better huh?! I think the nice guy gloves should be off for the Royals, **** the sox, they should be worried about the Twins getting into 1st place...and probably staying there!

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 12:00 AM
According to Stuart Scott on Sportscenter, Olivo had four hits for the Royals at the plate, and got his fifth hit when he cracked Pierzdouche in the head.

Saw that, i was like wtf??? They really butchered that highlight...I assume they were trying to mean Aviles or had no ****ing clue period...

Bowser
08-04-2008, 12:02 AM
Saw that, i was like wtf??? They really butchered that highlight...I assume they were trying to mean Aviles or had no ****ing clue period...

I'll guess the latter.

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 12:05 AM
I really don't care. A lot of armchair QB'ing by people who did not watch the game. Dude comes into a the 2nd blowout in a row, and throws three straight pitches at a guy's head. I don't blame Olivo at all.

Heck, Hawk and DJ are the biggest homers on the planet, and they said they didn't blame Olivo either.

I wish Olivo gave them what was coming to them...

I wish Zack beaned someone else besides Swisher, who seems like a good guy. Should've saved it for AJ but hey screw the SOX

DaneMcCloud
08-04-2008, 12:06 AM
Finally!

I hope he finds the true killer of Randy Rhoads.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 12:07 AM
Should've saved it for AJ but hey screw the SOX

No shit, especially after he put one in the water. I'm suprised the guy doesn't get plunked far more frequently leaguewide.

acesn8s
08-04-2008, 12:45 AM
http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200808033248567&c_id=kc

Once...

Twice...

Three times a melee

thurman merman
08-04-2008, 01:15 AM
No shit, especially after he put one in the water. I'm suprised the guy doesn't get plunked far more frequently leaguewide.

i would hit him just cause his hair is so stupid.

thurman merman
08-04-2008, 01:16 AM
Doesn't that punch a bit of a hole in Passan's argument that Olivo wasn't hit on purpose?

yes.

milmil13
08-04-2008, 01:34 AM
Intentional or not, this is exactly the type of thing the Royals need in order to get some respect. I just wish Olivo had hit AJ harder.

Dartgod
08-04-2008, 08:59 AM
Next game they play, have the Royals pitcher put one between Quentin's shoulder blades.
Looks like a perfect opportunity to give TPJ his first major league start.

gblowfish
08-04-2008, 09:16 AM
Ozzie Guillen is a weak impersonation of Lou Pinella. The Chisox are MLB's version of the Raiders.

BigRedChief
08-04-2008, 09:41 AM
OMG pitchers intentionally threw at a player? A manager ordered a battered doinked?
News at 11.

Fish
08-04-2008, 10:04 AM
AJ is one hateable sumbitch..... Geez that guy's a douche....

jidar
08-04-2008, 11:11 AM
This article is bullshit. He makes it sounds like the pitches moved around, the hell they did, that was three straight pitches at Olivos head.
Plus is it so hard to believe Ozzie saw the Teahan bunt and he lost his cool despite the fact that the Royals had bases loaded? Sure it doesn't seem rational to most managers but this is Ozzie we're talking about, he routinely lets his temper get the best of him.

I don't buy this bullshit for a second.

milmil13
08-04-2008, 11:15 AM
ESPN said that Carrasco was obviously pitching up and in trying to induce a double play groundball. Not sure about that.

irishjayhawk
08-04-2008, 12:25 PM
I saw on ESPN's bottom line today that the umpire's committee's review indicated that the pitch was NOT intentional.

I wonder if they'll release some statements about past calls in Sox games. I seem to remember a series where the umpiring was atrocious and VERY one sided.

Chief Chief
08-04-2008, 12:29 PM
Guillen thinks he'll be seeing alot of KC over the course of his contract with the ChiSux. But if he don't get his team into the post-season this year (with Griffey on board), Guillen may not be anywhere near KC for awhile.

BTW, is there any way MLB can form a team of current players/coaches with the last name of Guillen and send 'em over to Japan to represent the exemplary and humane standards of our wonderful country while playing in their league for the next 10 years?

Dartgod
08-04-2008, 12:33 PM
ESPN said that Carrasco was obviously pitching up and in trying to induce a double play groundball. Not sure about that.
ESPN is wrong then. Hell, here is what Carrasco said about the last pitch, in an article on....ESPN.com.

"I came in and I'm trying to get a double play ball," Carrasco said. "I threw him my sinker in to try to get him to get a ground ball out of that, and it got away from me. I went to pick up the ball, and he's charging at me."
That had to be the worst sinker in the history of baseball.

milmil13
08-04-2008, 12:35 PM
I saw on ESPN's bottom line today that the umpire's committee's review indicated that the pitch was NOT intentional.

Yea I heard the home plate umpire went into the Sox locker room after the game and apologized for ejecting Carrasco.

Obviously it was inappropriate for Olivo to start a fight after three straight pitches under the chin, not to mention he had been beaned two other times this year by the Sox.

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 12:45 PM
yeah it's pretty obvious that there was definitely no intent to hit olivo..... whatsoever... or in the slightest.... at all....ever...







:rolleyes:

Nzoner
08-04-2008, 12:53 PM
According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

heh,I was laying in bed when he said that and I said "screw you" outloud and the mrs was like wtf are you talkin to

cabletech94
08-04-2008, 01:23 PM
I have an autographed DJ CarrASSco ball from about 5 years ago.
Think it's worth anything?

thurman merman
08-04-2008, 01:40 PM
ESPN said that Carrasco was obviously pitching up and in trying to induce a double play groundball. Not sure about that.

aren't you supposed to pitch down if you want to induce a ground ball?

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 01:48 PM
ESPN doesn't know shit...as usual...they probably announced the highlights while up favres ass at the same time

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Ozzie doesn't realize that a 6 run lead by the Royals is a 2 run lead by any other team. The bunt attempt was justified. Its funny how his dumb ass says its ridiculous to bring in Carrasco to hit Olivo, but then admits he brought Carrasco in earlier in the year to intentionally hit Butler. This guys a fool, **** ozzie.

You don't understand how the game works then. Any bunt attempt like that in a 5+ run game is looked upon very poorly by baseball players, and a HBP is usually merited in all cases.

Ozzie is really the only one making sense here. He didn't send DJ Carrasco of all people to hit Olivo with the bases loaded.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 04:31 PM
aren't you supposed to pitch down if you want to induce a ground ball?

Many ground balls are a result of pitches that are up and in.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:35 PM
Many ground balls are a result of pitches that are up and in.

Especially ones thrown right at the head. I can't believe Olivo couldn't get one of those in play!

Nightfyre
08-04-2008, 04:36 PM
You don't understand how the game works then. Any bunt attempt like that in a 5+ run game is looked upon very poorly by baseball players, and a HBP is usually merited in all cases.

Ozzie is really the only one making sense here. He didn't send DJ Carrasco of all people to hit Olivo with the bases loaded.

This isn't the ****ing little leagues. This is the MLB. I remember one game this year off the top of my head where someone blew a 7 run lead over the Royals.

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 04:39 PM
You don't understand how the game works then. Any bunt attempt like that in a 5+ run game is looked upon very poorly by baseball players, and a HBP is usually merited in all cases.

Ozzie is really the only one making sense here. He didn't send DJ Carrasco of all people to hit Olivo with the bases loaded.

The royals have blown bigger leads than what we had...this is all about strategy and trying to win, they werent up 14-2 at that point. We've played like this all year...

**** the Sox and tell me 3 straight up in's that close isn't on Carrasco?! That dude has better control than that!

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 04:39 PM
Especially ones thrown right at the head. I can't believe Olivo couldn't get one of those in play!
I'm the only impartial observer here, not being a fan of either team, and I can tell you that he did not try to hit him with that ball. There's a reason Carrasco hasn't been in the majors since he was with the Royals a few years back, he has terrible control.

I don't need to tell you that it obviously doesn't make any sense to hit him in that situation, either.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 04:40 PM
The royals have blown bigger leads than what we had...this is all about strategy and trying to win, they werent up 14-2 at that point. We've played like this all year...

**** the Sox and tell me 3 straight up in's that close isn't on Carrasco?! That dude has better control than that!

Carrasco actually probably doesn't have better control than that.


And I'm just explaining to you how baseball works. Every manager in baseball would be pissed about a bunt in that situation, no matter what team it is.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 04:41 PM
This isn't the ****ing little leagues. This is the MLB. I remember one game this year off the top of my head where someone blew a 7 run lead over the Royals.

Exactly. It's the majors. Therefore bunting in a game like that is very frowned upon.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-04-2008, 04:42 PM
A six run lead in today's game is not safe at all. There is nothing wrong with bunting in that situation and anyone upset about it needs to just STFU.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 04:42 PM
A six run lead in today's game is not safe at all. There is nothing wrong with bunting in that situation and anyone upset about it needs to just STFU.

I'm not saying I'm upset about it. Personally, I don't get why it's an unwritten rule. But it is, and everybody in baseball knows about it.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 04:44 PM
I don't need to tell you that it obviously doesn't make any sense to hit him in that situation, either.

Very true. But this is Ozzie Guillen here. He has no shortage of hot-headedness, and watching his team get knocked around two days straight in the heat might have caused him to say piss on it. I won't argue that there are better situations to charge the mound, but I'm still glad Olivo did it. We have needed to do that to the Sox for years on end.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-04-2008, 04:44 PM
I'm not saying I'm upset about it. Personally, I don't get why it's an unwritten rule. But it is, and everybody in baseball knows about it.

Oh, I was talking about ozzie being upset not yourself. Kind of a lame "unwritten rule" if you ask me. This isn't pre 90's baseball where that was alot of runs.

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 04:45 PM
I'm not saying I'm upset about it. Personally, I don't get why it's an unwritten rule. But it is, and everybody in baseball knows about it.

I'll be the first to admit Trey bunts way more than he should, but he is used to his Jap league where his team couldnt score crap and they had to bunt alot. I think Ozzie or any AL Central team should know how we work.

Demonpenz
08-04-2008, 04:46 PM
has anyone mentioned the guillen stair down or avieles bat toss yet? I thought maybe one of those two guys were going to get plunked because of the hot doggyness. I don't like the unwritten rules but they still exist

kcfanXIII
08-04-2008, 05:02 PM
I wish Olivo gave them what was coming to them...

I wish Zack beaned someone else besides Swisher, who seems like a good guy. Should've saved it for AJ but hey screw the SOX

pierzdousche wasn't for 3 or 4 more batters, and i think zack wasn't going to make it that far.

ozzie is as dirty as the city of chicago itself. this article is crap. i was there, watched three straight pitches up and in, and was stoked when olivo charged. sounds to me like ozzie guillen no like heat. carassco claimed it was a sinker ball. none of the three pitches were below the hands. intentional or not, three straight with the third actually making contact, your pitcher needs to be tossed before he hurts someone. not to mention olivo has been hit at least three times by the sox this year. everything was justified by guillen's order to hit someone.

KCUnited
08-04-2008, 05:04 PM
You don't understand how the game works then. Any bunt attempt like that in a 5+ run game is looked upon very poorly by baseball players, and a HBP is usually merited in all cases.

Ozzie is really the only one making sense here. He didn't send DJ Carrasco of all people to hit Olivo with the bases loaded.

I understand how the game works. I also understand how the Royals work. The night before we nearly blew a 5 run lead in the 8th inning and unfortunately thats not an uncommon occurrence with this team this year or in years past. Even giving Ozzie the benefit of the doubt, irresponsible pitching will get you charged and your players dotted in retaliation.

Bowser
08-04-2008, 05:09 PM
The fact that Guillen actually came out and admitted he has instructed pitchers to hit batters should be all you need to know. Oh, and he might get suspended for that fauz-pas, as well....

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-ozziesecret080308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Valiant
08-04-2008, 05:21 PM
You don't understand how the game works then. Any bunt attempt like that in a 5+ run game is looked upon very poorly by baseball players, and a HBP is usually merited in all cases.

Ozzie is really the only one making sense here. He didn't send DJ Carrasco of all people to hit Olivo with the bases loaded.

Yeah because in the past 5+ runs is hard to make up on the Royals???

It is a pussy excuse for a beaning.. The Royals normally play small ball.. That is there strategy.. It is the ****ing major leagues not t-ball...

Valiant
08-04-2008, 05:23 PM
Exactly. It's the majors. Therefore bunting in a game like that is very frowned upon.

No its not..

If we had somebody up there that could jack they ball they would have went for the GrandSlam.. But the Royals are playing to their strengths.. and that is small ball..

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 05:24 PM
No its not..

If we had somebody up there that could jack they ball they would have went for the GrandSlam.. But the Royals are playing to their strengths.. and that is small ball..

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you say it's not. I've seen it happen 3 times this year alone, and every time a hitter has been plunked later in the game for it. It's a very clear unwritten rule in baseball.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Royals and their capabilities.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 05:26 PM
The fact that Guillen actually came out and admitted he has instructed pitchers to hit batters should be all you need to know. Oh, and he might get suspended for that fauz-pas, as well....

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-ozziesecret080308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I don't know. The fact that he's admitted doing it in the past, but not here, actually helps his argument in my opinion.

It clearly didn't make sense in that situation to do so, and it didn't appear to me that he tried to hit him either. Usually when a pitcher tries to hit a batter, he doesn't hit them in the hands. That's the last place they aim for.

KCUnited
08-04-2008, 05:27 PM
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you say it's not. I've seen it happen 3 times this year alone, and every time a hitter has been plunked later in the game for it. It's a very clear unwritten rule in baseball.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Royals and their capabilities.

So that would make ozzie a liar for saying it wasn't intentional.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 05:31 PM
So that would make ozzie a liar for saying it wasn't intentional.

From the article:

If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt.

“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”

jidar
08-04-2008, 05:33 PM
I don't know. The fact that he's admitted doing it in the past, but not here, actually helps his argument in my opinion.

It clearly didn't make sense in that situation to do so, and it didn't appear to me that he tried to hit him either. Usually when a pitcher tries to hit a batter, he doesn't hit them in the hands. That's the last place they aim for.

he aimed at his ****ing head you dumb ****

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-04-2008, 05:35 PM
From the article:

If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt.

“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”

Ozzie's a moron. Score as many runs as you can to win the game. Get on base any way you can and don't let up. Heck Cleveland came from like 12 runs down a few years ago to win a game. Big comebacks happen all the time now. It's a new game now.

jidar
08-04-2008, 05:38 PM
So that would make ozzie a liar for saying it wasn't intentional.

yeah this ****ing clown wants to have it both ways.

Fact: Royals up by 6 and they bunt Teahan

Fact: Right after that 3 pitches inside at a batters head, -every one of them would have hit- if Olivo doesn't get out of the way.

Fact: Guillen says after the game the bunt pissed him off and was the sort of thing he would throw at hitters for.

but NNOOOOO this time he didn't, he swears, and some of these dumb kool aid drinking mother****ers around here are buying it.

KCUnited
08-04-2008, 05:43 PM
yeah this ****ing clown wants to have it both ways.

Fact: Royals up by 6 and they bunt Teahan

Fact: Right after that 3 pitches inside at a batters head, -every one of them would have hit- if Olivo doesn't get out of the way.

Fact: Guillen says after the game the bunt pissed him off and was the sort of thing he would throw at hitters for.

but NNOOOOO this time he didn't, he swears, and some of these dumb kool aid drinking mother****ers around here are buying it.

And don't forget this gem:

From the article:

Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye.

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 05:50 PM
And don't forget this gem:

From the article:

Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye.

also.... in his defense for yesterday he said that if he wanted to hit somebody he wouldn't use DJ (who throws 85), he said he would use someone who throws faster like dotel.

ROFL dumbass

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 05:53 PM
he aimed at his ****ing head you dumb ****

I'm the one that's not a fan of either team, and I can tell you that he didn't.

You dumb ****.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 05:54 PM
Ozzie's a moron. Score as many runs as you can to win the game. Get on base any way you can and don't let up. Heck Cleveland came from like 12 runs down a few years ago to win a game. Big comebacks happen all the time now. It's a new game now.

I'm sorry, but you don't understand baseball, then.

Bunting with a lead like that is completely unacceptable.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-04-2008, 06:12 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't understand baseball, then.

Bunting with a lead like that is completely unacceptable.

That is one of the dumbest things i've ever read. No offense though.

Oh no they are bunting again with a 5 run lead, WE ARE DOOMED. They are running up the score :crybaby: It is the big leagues and if these guys actually believe in that crap, they need to grow a pair.

kcfanXIII
08-04-2008, 06:13 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't understand baseball, then.

Bunting with a lead like that is completely unacceptable.

no, what is unacceptable is throwing at a batter's head, who you've already hit three times this season, THREE times in a row. i was at the game. i watched the whole ****ing situation. i agree 110% with every call the ump made in the whole ordeal. asking the royals not to bunt, their brand of ball, would be like asking the sox not to hit home runs.

thurman merman
08-04-2008, 06:13 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't understand baseball, then.

Bunting with a lead like that is completely unacceptable.

you are completely unacceptable. go away.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-04-2008, 06:15 PM
you are completely unacceptable. go away.

But, but we don't understand baseball :)

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 06:18 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't understand baseball, then.

Bunting with a lead like that is completely unacceptable.

that's rich

kcfanXIII
08-04-2008, 06:19 PM
But, but we don't understand baseball :)

because we should be comfortable with a six run lead against a lineup that includes bats like konerko, griffey, and pierzdousche.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 06:19 PM
I'm the one that's not a fan of either team, and I can tell you that he didn't.

You dumb ****.

Well, since you aren't a fan of either team, you obviously know where he was throwing. ROFL

VonneMarie
08-04-2008, 06:37 PM
Guillen is a complete jackass. And as for his bullshit threats, bring it.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Guillen is a complete jackass. And as for his bullshit threats, bring it.

Agreed. We are 10 games back. Shouldn't he be more worried about the Twins than his bruised ego and pride?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:23 PM
That is one of the dumbest things i've ever read. No offense though.

Oh no they are bunting again with a 5 run lead, WE ARE DOOMED. They are running up the score :crybaby: It is the big leagues and if these guys actually believe in that crap, they need to grow a pair.

That's unfortunate. Because it isn't just my opinion, it's a fact of baseball.

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 08:26 PM
That's unfortunate. Because it isn't just my opinion, it's a fact of baseball.

you are patently false, sir.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:28 PM
Such ignorance. Honestly, has anybody here ever played baseball at a high level, or even followed the game for a period of time?

If you had, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. Bunting with huge leads is something you DO NOT do in baseball. It is completely unacceptable for most managers/players, and it merits a HBP in many cases. It doesn't matter if it's the Royals, or any other terrible team. It's an unwritten rule. It may not make sense, but it's the way it is.

Ozzie Guillen has been around the game for a long time, why wouldn't you believe the guy?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:29 PM
Well, since you aren't a fan of either team, you obviously know where he was throwing. ROFL

No, but I've seen the play. And I know what it looks like when a pitcher tries to hit a batter. That wasn't it, no matter how many Royals fans want it to be.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:30 PM
you are patently false, sir.

Afraid not.

Coach
08-04-2008, 08:31 PM
In my opinion, if you are up by five, there is no reason to bunt, except if you are in the NL and a pitcher. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

Nightfyre
08-04-2008, 08:32 PM
Such ignorance. Honestly, has anybody here ever played baseball at a high level, or even followed the game for a period of time?

If you had, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. Bunting with huge leads is something you DO NOT do in baseball. It is completely unacceptable for most managers/players, and it merits a HBP in many cases. It doesn't matter if it's the Royals, or any other terrible team. It's an unwritten rule. It may not make sense, but it's the way it is.

Ozzie Guillen has been around the game for a long time, why wouldn't you believe the guy?

Oh please, wow us with your credentials.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:35 PM
Oh please, wow us with your credentials.

There's no reason to. It's just a question of me not being naive like the majority of you.

I wouldn't have thought this "rule" was so unknown to baseball fans, but I guess people just don't know enough about the game they follow.

kstater
08-04-2008, 08:40 PM
If MLB teams don't like having runs scored on them, ****ing stop the other team. Pretty simple huh?

Nightfyre
08-04-2008, 08:41 PM
There's no reason to. It's just a question of me not being naive like the majority of you.

I wouldn't have thought this "rule" was so unknown to baseball fans, but I guess people just don't know enough about the game they follow.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/liunwrit.shtml

hm. It's not listed here. Or on any of the google results I've looked through. I've been watching baseball for 15 years and this is the first I've heard of it.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:42 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/liunwrit.shtml

hm. It's not listed here. Or on any of the google results I've looked through. I've been watching baseball for 15 years and this is the first I've heard of it.

You're serious? Haha.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:43 PM
“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”


So you think Ozzie would just lie about something like this?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 08:48 PM
In my opinion, if you are up by five, there is no reason to bunt, except if you are in the NL and a pitcher. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

Right. It's also the opinion of every manager currently in baseball.

kstater
08-04-2008, 08:49 PM
Right. It's also the opinion of every manager currently in baseball.

I believe you are wrong there.

Nightfyre
08-04-2008, 08:49 PM
“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”


So you think Ozzie would just lie about something like this?

Do I think Ozzie is completely over-the-top and not the best source for baseball's unwritten rules? Yea, I do.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:13 PM
Go on believing what you want, guys. Unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong about this.

Ozzie has absolutely no reason to lie about that, somebody would almost certainly would call him on it. The problem for him is that he's too truthful. He's always been that way, and it's cost him fines and suspensions. Unwritten rules are supposed to remain unsaid.

leviw
08-04-2008, 09:19 PM
Go on believing what you want, guys. Unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong about this.

Ozzie has absolutely no reason to lie about that, somebody would almost certainly would call him on it. The problem for him is that he's too truthful. Unwritten rules are supposed to remain unsaid.

You're right about the unwritten rule, KC. But the rule is flawed, especially considering that situation. It's the fifth inning, and it's the Royals, and it's only 6-0, and you're playing one of the highest scoring, most potent lineups in baseball. If it were 12-0 in the sixth, then no way he bunts. A six run lead, especially for the Royals, especially against the White Sox, is not safe.

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 09:23 PM
Afraid not.

i've a played a ton of baseball in my lifetime at a very high level and only recently stopped. i know all about not bunting during a blowout, and all the other little unwritten rules. this was not a blowout. the white sox still had twelve outs left, and they are very explosive.

it was not a blowout, and the royals were going to keep the pressure on. if they had done it in the 8th or 9th i would agree. but this certainly wasn't a breaking of the unwritten rule as you suggest.

KCUnited
08-04-2008, 09:24 PM
The way this team bunts, we were doing the sox a favor asking teahen to lay one down.

Nightfyre
08-04-2008, 09:29 PM
You're right about the unwritten rule, KC. But the rule is flawed, especially considering that situation. It's the fifth inning, and it's the Royals, and it's only 6-0, and you're playing one of the highest scoring, most potent lineups in baseball. If it were 12-0 in the sixth, then no way he bunts. A six run lead, especially for the Royals, especially against the White Sox, is not safe.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E1D61E3CF934A3575BC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

Felipe Alou said in 2001 the rule was 7 runs for no bunting or stealing. This article also features a story about the Indians losing a 12-run lead.

http://208.17.81.135/sports/daily/feature/2008/07/21/bunt/index.html
Here is an article articulating the argument about how easy it is to blow leads in today's game.

"I really disagree with that they did," the Associated Press quoted Maddon saying. "We'll stop trying to score runs when they stop trying. Maybe in 1922 you wouldn't do that because nobody could hit a home run. But in the year 2008, people can hit home runs." Maddon pointed out that after the Rays had scored a run in the eighth to make it 6-0, the Blue Jays scored four runs in the ninth inning and brought the tying run to the plate.

tk13
08-04-2008, 09:34 PM
This is not even worth a discussion. If you really claimed to watch an ounce of baseball, you'd know a guy with a 13/5 K:BB ratio isn't gonna come in and have "control problems" and throw three straight fastballs at the same location right at a guy's head. You don't do that. That's not how you get hitters out. You throw that fastball up in someone's grill to back them off the plate, then you hit the outside corner. That's baseball 101. You don't throw a pitch high and tight. Then follow that up with pitch even farther up the ladder at a guy's head... and when that doesn't work, go even further up the ladder.

And I don't have a problem with Teahen's bunt. We were up what, 5? 6 runs? Just the day before we about blew a 5 run lead. If Ozzie doesn't like it, tough crap. Bring it on, which they did, and we pummeled them. It's about time this team showed some backbone. He just wants to be the playground bully... but they become big babies when somebody punches them in the mouth though.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:37 PM
This is not even worth a discussion. If you really claimed to watch an ounce of baseball, you'd know a guy with a 13/5 K:BB ratio isn't gonna come in and have "control problems" and throw three straight fastballs at the same location right at a guy's head.

Nice sample size.

Carrasco walked more batters than he struck out in his final year in KC, and has a history of walking too many batters in both the major and minor leagues.


You don't do that. That's not how you get hitters out. You throw that fastball up in someone's grill to back them off the plate, then you hit the outside corner. That's baseball 101. You don't throw a pitch high and tight. Then follow that up with pitch even farther up the ladder at a guy's head... and when that doesn't work, go even further up the ladder.

He wasn't trying to throw the ball at him. Watch the play again, and try not to be biased.


And I don't have a problem with Teahen's bunt. We were up what, 5? 6 runs? Just the day before we about blew a 5 run lead. If Ozzie doesn't like it, tough crap. Bring it on, which they did, and we pummeled them. It's about time this team showed some backbone. He just wants to be the playground bully... but they become big babies when somebody punches them in the mouth though.

You might not have a problem with it. I might not have a problem with it. But baseball (especially the old-school guys) does.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:39 PM
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E1D61E3CF934A3575BC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

Felipe Alou said in 2001 the rule was 7 runs for no bunting or stealing. This article also features a story about the Indians losing a 12-run lead.

http://208.17.81.135/sports/daily/feature/2008/07/21/bunt/index.html
Here is an article articulating the argument about how easy it is to blow leads in today's game.


I'm sure Joe Maddon would be singing to a different tune if he was the one actually bunted on.

Showing me a bunch of games where teams came back from huge margins isn't going to prove anything to me. I'm not the one that agrees with how baseball deals with their problems. I just recognize the facts of the matter.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 09:40 PM
Such ignorance. Honestly, has anybody here ever played baseball at a high level, or even followed the game for a period of time?

If you had, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. Bunting with huge leads is something you DO NOT do in baseball. It is completely unacceptable for most managers/players, and it merits a HBP in many cases. It doesn't matter if it's the Royals, or any other terrible team. It's an unwritten rule. It may not make sense, but it's the way it is.

Ozzie Guillen has been around the game for a long time, why wouldn't you believe the guy?

I am very jealous of your lot in life.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:40 PM
You're right about the unwritten rule, KC. But the rule is flawed, especially considering that situation. It's the fifth inning, and it's the Royals, and it's only 6-0, and you're playing one of the highest scoring, most potent lineups in baseball. If it were 12-0 in the sixth, then no way he bunts. A six run lead, especially for the Royals, especially against the White Sox, is not safe.

Of course the rule is flawed. I never said it wasn't.

Nightfyre
08-04-2008, 09:40 PM
Nice sample size.

Carrasco walked more batters than he struck out in his final year in KC, and has a history of walking too many batters in both the major and minor leagues.


He wasn't trying to throw the ball at him. Watch the play again, and try not to be biased.



You might not have a problem with it. I might not have a problem with it. But baseball (especially old-school guys) does.

Old-school guys need to come to terms with the modern age. Additionally, it is highly circumstantial that a guy comes out whom he has used in the past year to exact justice against this very team and throws his first THREE pitches at a guy's face whom they have already hit three times that year. That's a whole shitton of coincidence, if you ask me.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:41 PM
I am very jealous of your lot in life.
Thanks?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:43 PM
Old-school guys need to come to terms with the modern age. Additionally, it is highly circumstantial that a guy comes out whom he has used in the past year to exact justice against this very team and throws his first THREE pitches at a guy's face whom they have already hit three times that year. That's a whole shitton of coincidence, if you ask me.
If the pitches were blatantly at the guy's face, he would have been kicked out after the 1st pitch. But they weren't. He wasn't intentionally throwing at him, and the umpires realized that after the fact.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 09:44 PM
Thanks?

No problem. I feel imcomplete for not playing baseball at such a high level as you.

leviw
08-04-2008, 09:44 PM
Nice sample size.

Carrasco walked more batters than he struck out in his final year in KC, and has a history of walking too many batters in both the major and minor leagues.


He wasn't trying to throw the ball at him. Watch the play again, and try not to be biased.



You might not have a problem with it. I might not have a problem with it. But baseball (especially the old-school guys) does.

The fact is Carrasco threw three pitches high and tight to Olivo. Olivo had already had an encounter with the White Sox in June. Whether it was intentional or not, Olivo took it as such.

And I don't think you can consider all of baseball (especially the old-school guys) and Ozzie Guillen as one and the same.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:44 PM
No problem. I feel imcomplete for not playing baseball at such a high level as you.
Some people are good at different things, no worries.

tk13
08-04-2008, 09:45 PM
Nice sample size.

Carrasco walked more batters than he struck out in his final year in KC, and has a history of walking too many batters in both the major and minor leagues.


He wasn't trying to throw the ball at him. Watch the play again, and try not to be biased.



You might not have a problem with it. I might not have a problem with it. But baseball (especially the old-school guys) does.
Did you actually watch the game? I watched the game. I don't need to see a replay. He threw three straight pitches right at his head. You can argue all you want. Go ahead and justify the million other examples you know of where a pitcher, even with bad control, does that.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:46 PM
The fact is Carrasco threw three pitches high and tight to Olivo. Olivo had already had an encounter with the White Sox in June. Whether it was intentional or not, Olivo took it as such.

And Olivo was clearly wrong to take it as such. Anybody watching the game (who wasn't biased) would have known that).



And I don't think you can consider all of baseball (especially the old-school guys) and Ozzie Guillen as one and the same.
For this I can. As Ozzie said, everybody in baseball knows about what he's talking about.

KCUnited
08-04-2008, 09:46 PM
If the pitches were blatantly at the guy's face, he would have been kicked out after the 1st pitch. But they weren't. He wasn't intentionally throwing at him, and the umpires realized that after the fact.

Do you have a link to the umpires statements after the game?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:49 PM
Did you actually watch the game? I watched the game. I don't need to see a replay. He threw three straight pitches right at his head. You can argue all you want. Go ahead and justify the million other examples you know of where a pitcher, even with bad control, does that.
Of course I did. I am a bit of a Royals fan after all.

And he never threw 3 straight pitches right at his head. The umpires realized it, why can't you?

tk13
08-04-2008, 09:51 PM
The funny thing is he's making an argument about old school baseball. In true "old school baseball", if somebody threw at a guy's head three straight times.... even on accident, he was gonna get his head pummeled in. That's why Hawk and DJ even said they didn't blame Olivo one bit.

And if that didn't happen, one of the opposing batters was gonna get it, hard. You don't sit there and let somebody intimidate you. That's not old school baseball. You can't have it both ways.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:52 PM
Do you have a link to the umpires statements after the game?
From the article above:
Still, the tack baseball takes toward hit batsmen often inflames situations rather than extinguish them. Cederstrom explained that Carrasco’s three pitches were “up and in.” The pitch that hit Olivo nicked him on the wrist, which might be in but wasn’t up enough to arouse any suspicion.

“If he would’ve hit me with the first pitch, I would’ve been happy to take first base,” Olivo admitted. “But three times inside? It’s just so obvious.”

Actually, it wasn’t obvious at all, though emotions and memories and feelings tend to scuttle the truth in these situations. Guillen said Royals pitchers hit the White Sox six or seven times in a series in late July. It was five. And Olivo said Chicago had hit him three times this season. Carrasco’s was the second.

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 09:52 PM
The funny thing is he's making an argument about old school baseball. In true "old school baseball", if somebody threw at a guy's head three straight times.... even on accident, he was gonna get his head pummeled in. That's why Hawk and DJ even said they didn't blame Olivo one bit.

And if that didn't happen, one of the opposing batters was gonna get it, hard. You don't sit there and let somebody intimidate you. That's not old school baseball. You can't have it both ways.

thread closed

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:53 PM
And then this:
After watching the videotape, umpire Gary Cederstrom issued an apology in the Sox's coaches' office. But that came after Guillen had criticized the umpiring crew and had threatened the Royals after the latest in a series of incidents.

Fish
08-04-2008, 09:53 PM
Of course I did. I am a bit of a Royals fan after all.

And he never threw 3 straight pitches right at his head. The umpires realized it, why can't you?

Actually Hillman made a statement after the game saying the umpires were discussing whether Carrasco threw a punch or not. They didn't debate the pitches at that time.

leviw
08-04-2008, 09:54 PM
The umpires never said anything about the pitches. Carrasco wasn't tossed because of the pitches. He was tossed for throwing what the umpires thought was a punch. They watched the video and realized it wasn't a punch, and that's what they retracted on.

DeezNutz
08-04-2008, 09:54 PM
Hillman made a point in today's press conference to say that the umpires did NOT apologize to CHI about the intent of the pitch. Rather, the umpires mistakenly though D.J. threw a punch, which he did if you consider a bitch slap a punch.

DeezNutz
08-04-2008, 09:55 PM
The umpires never said anything about the pitches. Carrasco wasn't tossed because of the pitches. He was tossed for throwing what the umpires thought was a punch. They watched the video and realized it wasn't a punch, and that's what they retracted on.

By seconds, seconds I tell you. Shit.

tk13
08-04-2008, 09:56 PM
Tony LaRussa is an old school baseball guy. Go read "Three Nights In August", because you're a true baseball fan right? So you've probably read it.

He specifically refers to this crap. You can hit a guy, you can retaliate. It happens. LaRussa has done it himself.

But there's one thing, you never ever, ever, do. And that is throw anywhere near a guy's head. Even accidently. You do not go above the shoulders. That is a clear baseball no-no, it's dirty. Even for an old school manager. And if you throw it up there three times in a row, you're gonna pay. And Carrasco paid. Tough crap.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:56 PM
The funny thing is he's making an argument about old school baseball. In true "old school baseball", if somebody threw at a guy's head three straight times.... even on accident, he was gonna get his head pummeled in. That's why Hawk and DJ even said they didn't blame Olivo one bit.

And if that didn't happen, one of the opposing batters was gonna get it, hard. You don't sit there and let somebody intimidate you. That's not old school baseball. You can't have it both ways.
All I'm saying is Ozzie didn't intentionally send Carrasco out to hit Olivo. It was pretty obvious to me while I was watching the game. Whatever happens after that happens. If the Royals felt they had been wronged, it's total within their right to retaliate. It just opens up the shitstorm, though.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 09:58 PM
Tony LaRussa is an old school baseball guy. Go read "Three Nights In August", because you're a true baseball fan right? So you've probably read it.

He specifically refers to this crap. You can hit a guy, you can retaliate. It happens. LaRussa has done it himself.

But there's one thing, you never ever, ever, do. And that is throw anywhere near a guy's head. Even accidently. You do not go above the shoulders. That is a clear baseball no-no, it's dirty. Even for an old school manager. And if you throw it up there three times in a row, you're gonna pay. And Carrasco paid. Tough crap.
Who is arguing with any of that? I'm not.

I just felt it was obviously not intentional.

leviw
08-04-2008, 09:59 PM
All I'm saying is Ozzie didn't intentionally send Carrasco out to hit Olivo.

That's out of the realm of possibility? Guillen admitted to sending Carrasco in to hit Billy Bulter earlier this season when the Royals hit Dye and injured him. Carrasco missed. Guillen's press conference was laughable. And yes, he does have a reason to lie -- to lessen his player's impending suspension. The same as Greinke saying he didn't have control of his fastball inside to lefties, and that's why he hit Swisher. It's not true.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:01 PM
The umpires never said anything about the pitches. Carrasco wasn't tossed because of the pitches. He was tossed for throwing what the umpires thought was a punch. They watched the video and realized it wasn't a punch, and that's what they retracted on.
Exactly. The umpires never tossed Carrasco because of the pitches. It wouldn't have even been an incident if Olivo had walked to first.

tk13
08-04-2008, 10:01 PM
All I'm saying is Ozzie didn't intentionally send Carrasco out to hit Olivo. It was pretty obvious to me while I was watching the game. Whatever happens after that happens. If the Royals felt they had been wronged, it's total within their right to retaliate. It just opens up the shitstorm, though.
Yeah right. He's a slimy little weasel. This is the same dude that demoted a pitcher because he didn't hit somebody. Demoted him to AAA! I think it's possible Carrasco did it on his own, and Guillen is defending his guy. That's fine, he has to. But you are not gonna convince me it wasn't intentional.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:02 PM
That's out of the realm of possibility? Guillen admitted to sending Carrasco in to hit Billy Bulter earlier this season when the Royals hit Dye and injured him. Carrasco missed. Guillen's press conference was laughable. And yes, he does have a reason to lie -- to lessen his player's impending suspension. The same as Greinke saying he didn't have control of his fastball inside to lefties, and that's why he hit Swisher. It's not true.
All I can say is that it's a little ridiculous to believe that he tried to hit him 3 times in a row in the head. If you watch the play over again, I don't get how anybody can come to that conclusion.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:04 PM
Yeah right. He's a slimy little weasel. This is the same dude that demoted a pitcher because he didn't hit somebody. Demoted him to AAA! I think it's possible Carrasco did it on his own, and Guillen is defending his guy. That's fine, he has to. But you are not gonna convince me it wasn't intentional.
That's old-school baseball for you. The pitcher didn't do his job (which in that case was hitting a guy, instead of getting an out), so he got sent down. Not surprising to me. I've seen it happen before, and as long as there are people like Ozzie in the game, it will happen again.

As for whether it was intentional, well I think all you have to do is watch the play. You clearly saw something I didn't, though.

leviw
08-04-2008, 10:04 PM
Exactly. The umpires never tossed Carrasco because of the pitches. It wouldn't have even been an incident if Olivo had walked to first.

Whether it would or wouldn't have been an incident if he walked to first still doesn't verify whether it was intentional or not.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 10:06 PM
I'm the one that's not a fan of either team, and I can tell you that he didn't.

You dumb ****.

Of course I did. I am a bit of a Royals fan after all.

And he never threw 3 straight pitches right at his head. The umpires realized it, why can't you?

No you aren't. You aren't a fan of either team, remember?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:07 PM
No you aren't. You aren't a fan of either team, remember?
The Royals are like my 3rd favourite team. I don't live and die on their wins and losses, but I do like to see them succeed.

Is that enough clarification for you?

leviw
08-04-2008, 10:07 PM
All I can say is that it's a little ridiculous to believe that he tried to hit him 3 times in a row in the head. If you watch the play over again, I don't get how anybody can come to that conclusion.

I don't necessarily thing it was intentional. It was stupid baseball if it was. But it dumb to say Olivo was "clearly" wrong in charging the mound when: 1) He had three consecutive pitches coming at his head 2) He's had incidents with the White Sox already this year 3) Carrasco was already put in by Guillen once this season to hit a Royals batter.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:07 PM
Whether it would or wouldn't have been an incident if he walked to first still doesn't verify whether it was intentional or not.
The umpire working the plate didn't believe it was. If he did, he would have ejected him on the spot.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 10:08 PM
The Royals are like my 3rd favourite team. I don't live and die on their wins and losses, but I do like to see them succeed.

Is that enough clarification for you?

Relax, bro. I just want you to keep your story straight!

leviw
08-04-2008, 10:09 PM
The umpire working the plate didn't believe it was. If he did, he would have ejected him on the spot.

How could the ump have ejected him on the spot when he was chasing after Olivo to stop him from getting to Carrasco?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:10 PM
Relax, bro. I just want you to keep your story straight!
It was straight.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
How could the ump have ejected him on the spot when he was chasing after Olivo to stop him from getting to Carrasco?
Watch the play. He made no motion to throw him out after the HBP. He just called the dead ball, and pointed Olivo to first. Olivo then got up after that, and ran at him.

There was more than enough time to signal the ejection.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
It was straight.

Nope. It wasn't. It's ok though, integrity obviously isn't your strong suit.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
Nope. It wasn't. It's ok though, integrity obviously isn't your strong suit.

I would have thought that when I said "a bit of a Royals fan," it would have been enough for somebody to determine that I follow somebody else over them. I guess not.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 10:14 PM
I would have thought that when I said "a bit of a Royals fan," it would have been enough for somebody to determine that I follow somebody else over them. I guess not.

No you said you weren't a fan of either team. Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.....

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:18 PM
No you said you weren't a fan of either team. Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal.....
I'm not. I'm a fan of the Toronto Blue Jays.

I do enjoy watching both the Rockies and Royals, though, and hope for their success.

What me being a bit of a Royals fan has to do with anything, I'm not sure.

SPATCH
08-04-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm not. I'm a fan of the Toronto Blue Jays.

I do enjoy watching both the Rockies and Royals, though, and hope for their success.

What me being a bit of a Royals fan has to do with anything, I'm not sure.

admit that you were wrong. NOW.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:22 PM
admit that you were wrong. NOW.

About what? I'm a Blue Jays fan. They are the only team that I watch nearly every game of. I don't live and die on the losses of the Royals. But if you want the satisfaction of me saying that I sometimes watch Royals games when they come on TV up here, then fine, I was wrong.

Although, shouldn't me being a bit of a Royals fan help my credibility in talking about a subject like this, and not being entirely biased doing so like the rest of you?

DeezNutz
08-04-2008, 10:23 PM
A towel party is happening in this thread.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 10:24 PM
About what? I'm a Blue Jays fan. They are the only team that I watch nearly every game of. I don't live and die on the losses of the Royals. But if you want the satisfaction of me saying that I sometimes watch Royals games when they come on TV up here, then fine, I was wrong.

Although, shouldn't me being a bit of a Royals fan help my credibility in talking about a subject like this, and not being entirely biased doing so like the rest of you?

You are claiming Kansas City Royals fans are biased? Wow. We are some of the biggest doom and gloom fans in history. What are you talking about?

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:24 PM
You are claiming Kansas City Royals fans are biased? Wow. We are some of the biggest doom and gloom fans in history. What are you talking about?

Some of you seem to be incredibly biased when talking about this topic, I'll tell you that.

Mizzou_8541
08-04-2008, 10:25 PM
Some of you seem to be incredibly biased when talking about this topic, I'll tell you that.

Overall, I think you will find the people most critical of the Kansas City Royals are Kansas City Royals fans.

KC_Connection
08-04-2008, 10:26 PM
Overall, I think you will find the people most critical of the Kansas City Royals are Kansas City Royals fans.
Again. I'm only talking about this situation.

Many of you see something that just didn't happen.

Sure-Oz
08-04-2008, 10:33 PM
I think Ozzie Connection will never realize what it was, but its old school and no manager can't lie ever, esp ozzie guillen?! 3 straight balls up and in are a sign of something else, I watched carrasco during his kc days and he was not that wild with his pitches...

I could care less, even our resident baseball expert TK is wrong in this situation apparently...

No manager will admit he tried to hit the guy on purpose there...unwritten rule they don't tell you otherwise, but he will cover it up by saying he'd bring out his best pitchers etc...his bullpen was already drained i doubt he wouldve brought out dotel just for that.

kcfanXIII
08-04-2008, 10:37 PM
The umpires never said anything about the pitches. Carrasco wasn't tossed because of the pitches. He was tossed for throwing what the umpires thought was a punch. They watched the video and realized it wasn't a punch, and that's what they retracted on.

so it was a slap. to a guy that was being restrained. suspend him for being a bitch.