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mlyonsd
08-04-2008, 09:58 AM
Friday Obama talks about a compromise on drilling for domestic oil (which the American public overwhelmingly supports) while the dem congressional leaders make it clear they have no intention of allowing something like that to come up for a vote (appeases the environmental base).


Pelosi firm: No vote on offshore drilling

WASHINGTON — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Sunday ruled out a vote on new offshore oil drilling even as Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said he might be open to a compromise that included it.

The scramble over expanded drilling off America's coasts — ammunition for a weekend of rat-a-tat-tat by the presidential campaigns — underscores the political power of $4-a-gallon gas. Though President Bush and other backers of new drilling acknowledge it wouldn't directly affect gas prices for years, they have pounded Democrats for opposing the measure, which is now supported by most Americans.

Obama is scheduled to deliver a speech today in Lansing, Mich., on energy policy, unveiling what spokesman Bill Burton called "new short-term and long-term solutions to the energy crisis that we're facing."

On Tuesday, presumptive Republican nominee John McCain is scheduled to go to the Enrico Fermi nuclear power plant in Newport, Mich., to spotlight his proposal for more nuclear plants.

The latest furor over energy policy began when Obama, campaigning in Florida on Saturday, spoke favorably of a Senate plan that includes new offshore drilling, a step he has long opposed. "What I don't want is for the best to be the enemy of the good here," he told reporters in Titusville. "If we can come up with a genuine, bipartisan compromise in which I have to accept some things I don't like, or the Democrats have to accept some things that they don't like, in exchange for moving us in the direction of energy independence, then that's something I'm open to."

McCain also would be "open to compromise packages" on energy, aide Nancy Pfotenhauer said Sunday on CNN's Late Edition.

The Senate measure, unveiled Friday by five Democrats and five Republicans, would give states the final say in drilling 50 miles or more from shore on the Outer Continental Shelf. It also would repeal a key tax break for oil companies, expand funding for alternative-fuel vehicles and extend tax credits to promote alternative and efficient energy.

Pelosi called proposals to allow more offshore drilling a deceptive "decoy" rather than a solution and indicated she would bar a vote on any bill that included it. "I'm not giving the gavel away to a tactic … that supports the oil (companies), big oil at the cost and the expense of the consumer," she said on ABC's This Week.

The House started a five-week summer recess Friday despite Republican demands for a vote on lifting the federal ban on offshore drilling. House Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio said GOP representatives would be on the House floor today to protest the lack of action.

Pelosi's hard line is good news for Obama, said Thomas Mann, a congressional analyst at the Brookings Institution. Her action "basically cools the passion of environmentalists, knowing it's not going anywhere, while he (is) open to compromise on a comprehensive package that would achieve many other objectives," Mann said. "It allows him to effectively have it both ways."

A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken July 25-27 found that Americans by numbers approaching 2-1 would be more likely to support a candidate who backs expanded offshore drilling.

McCain had opposed new offshore drilling but announced in June he would support it because of rising energy costs. Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, an independent and former Democrat who backs McCain, said the switch demonstrated the Arizona senator's decisiveness in responding to a crisis.

In contrast, "Barack Obama says this weekend 'maybe,' 'eh,' and 'if, but,' " Lieberman said on NBC's Meet the Press. "He did not come out with a strong decision."

Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, an Obama supporter, replied that the Illinois senator was ready to "break America's gridlock by honoring a bipartisan effort."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2008-08-03-offshore_N.htm

I suppose since promising something you have no intention of delivering worked in the 2006 election why not try it again? It's pathetic the voters let them pull this kind of crap.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 10:02 AM
I cant understand why if Obama is so positive now on drilling, why does he not demonstrate his leadership in his party and make Pelosi and Reid allow the passage of a simple un encumbered bill that is not filled with earmarks, garbage, and other issues?

Perhaps he didn't really mean what he said...Or he knows he has no power to move Pelosi and Reid?

markk
08-04-2008, 10:02 AM
There you can see exactly why Obama made statements about maybe supporting drilling. It's a safe play. The left doesn't want any drilling at all. They like high prices.

He knows that Pelosi and friends will never let it come up for a vote anyway so it's safe for him to side with the popular position for now. Once public opinion really started to sway in favor of drilling, he inevitably would too.

markk
08-04-2008, 10:04 AM
I cant understand why if Obama is so positive now on drilling, why does he not demonstrate his leadership in his party and make Pelosi and Reid allow the passage of a simple un encumbered bill that is not filled with earmarks, garbage, and other issues?


Because as he showed on FISA, he's not going to stand up to them. His leash only goes as far as they let it go.

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 10:05 AM
I cant understand why if Obama is so positive now on drillingHe's not, and has never claimed to be.

There you can see exactly why Obama made statements about maybe supporting drilling.He "supports" drilling insofar as allowing it to happen may eventually be the only way to let Republicans stop thrashing about long enough to allow other, more effective ways of dealing with the situation to be put into place.

Because as he showed on FISA, he's not going to stand up to them. His leash only goes as far as they let it go.I love this new meme THIS MUCH. It's really hilarious to see the people pulling for the guy who sold his soul to become Karl Rove's plaything try to pretend that the guy who's been in complete control of his own campaign and party since getting the nomination is some sort of puppet.

Either he's an eeeeevil 'Merka-hatin' mastermind or he's a puppet, but no, you've got to try to have it both ways.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 10:07 AM
I don't know mlyonsd maybe they are hoping the American people are smarter then the drill the way out of this mess people. We will not see a drop of that oil for at least 8-10 years.

BTW today Obama is unveiling his energy policy which states we can be off all ME in 10 years.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 10:11 AM
So he didnt really mean he would support it and be non partisan on this one?

DaKCMan AP
08-04-2008, 10:12 AM
Voters already proved they're stupid electing Dumbya twice.

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 10:12 AM
So he didnt really mean he would support it and be non partisan on this one?EITHER YOU LET US RUN ROUGHSHOD OR YOU'RE PARTISAN

Sully
08-04-2008, 10:12 AM
I think this is just one more piece of evidence that Senator Obama thinks Americans are a ton smarter than most politicians, and many in this thread, give them credit for.
he has faith that they are smart enough to see through the "He's flip-flopped/He's a Muslim/He's too popular!/He's a messiah!!! bullshit, and see that he actually IS different. He actually will go against his party, if he sees a better answer. He actually WILL put away the my way or the highway politics we have all bought into. He actually will examine and change his stance, if he sees that a compromise will work toward a better solution for America in the future.

HC_Chief
08-04-2008, 10:14 AM
I think it's a safe bet on their part ("rolling the die voters are stupid").

Unfortunately A LOT of our fellow voters are ignorant (and too many just plain stupid)

mlyonsd
08-04-2008, 10:14 AM
I don't know mlyonsd maybe they are hoping the American people are smarter then the drill the way out of this mess people. We will not see a drop of that oil for at least 8-10 years.

BTW today Obama is unveiling his energy policy which states we can be off all ME in 10 years.

This thread has nothing to do with which energy policy will work. It has to do with the dems playing the game of good cop/bad cop just to trick stupid people into giving them their vote.

If Obama publicly denounces Pelosi's tactics let me know, I'll be the first to give him credit.

markk
08-04-2008, 10:14 AM
He "supports" drilling insofar as allowing it to happen may eventually be the only way to let Republicans stop thrashing about long enough to allow other, more effective ways of dealing with the situation to be put into place.


I see. So he's willing to cave in on drilling simply because the political pressure is high at the moment, a moment in which he's trying to win an election, but in reality Obama is against any kind of short term relief measures at all. He just doesn't want to have to answer for that in the middle of a campaign.

HC_Chief
08-04-2008, 10:15 AM
I think this is just one more piece of evidence that Senator Obama thinks Americans are a ton smarter than most politicians, and many in this thread, give them credit for.
he has faith that they are smart enough to see through the "He's flip-flopped/He's a Muslim/He's too popular!/He's a messiah!!! bullshit, and see that he actually IS different. He actually will go against his party, if he sees a better answer. He actually WILL put away the my way or the highway politics we have all bought into. He actually will examine and change his stance, if he sees that a compromise will work toward a better solution for America in the future.

wow, just, wow

Sully
08-04-2008, 10:16 AM
wow, just, wow

I know.
It's great that a condidate actually believes in the American people, for once, isn't it?

Radar Chief
08-04-2008, 10:16 AM
I don't know mlyonsd maybe they are hoping the American people are smarter then the drill the way out of this mess people. We will not see a drop of that oil for at least 8-10 years.

That’s the same excuse that’s been floated for the last 8-10 years, BTW.

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 10:19 AM
I see. So he's willing to cave in on drilling simply because the political pressure is high at the moment, a moment in which he's trying to win an election, but in reality Obama is against any kind of short term relief measures at all. He just doesn't want to have to answer for that in the middle of a campaign.Yes. Exactly.
YOU ARE ****ING RETARDED

markk
08-04-2008, 10:20 AM
Yes. Exactly.
I AM ****ING RETARDED

Thanks. Finally we are building bridges of understanding.

Ultra Peanut
08-04-2008, 10:22 AM
Thanks. Finally we are building bridges of understanding.i c wut u did thar

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 10:24 AM
Is this not a perfect opportunity to establish his credability as a leader in his party and show the voters he can and will do what he says?

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 10:34 AM
This thread has nothing to do with which energy policy will work. It has to do with the dems playing the game of good cop/bad cop just to trick stupid people into giving them their vote.

If Obama publicly denounces Pelosi's tactics let me know, I'll be the first to give him credit.

It is called politics and both sides play it.

That’s the same excuse that’s been floated for the last 8-10 years, BTW.

That is why he is energy plan calls for no longer needing ME oil in 10 years. No need to drill if we can get off their oil.

Radar Chief
08-04-2008, 10:39 AM
That is why he is energy plan calls for no longer needing ME oil in 10 years. No need to drill if we can get off their oil.

Do you think that’s a realistic goal?
Personally, I’ll wait and see what Barry Hussein's "plan" is but I’m not expecting much.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 11:11 AM
Do you think that’s a realistic goal?
Personally, I’ll wait and see what Barry Hussein's "plan" is but I’m not expecting much.

Yes I do actually. We can do whatever we want if we all commit to it.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 11:12 AM
There you can see exactly why Obama made statements about maybe supporting drilling. It's a safe play. The left doesn't want any drilling at all. They like high prices.

He knows that Pelosi and friends will never let it come up for a vote anyway so it's safe for him to side with the popular position for now. Once public opinion really started to sway in favor of drilling, he inevitably would too.

You nailed it.

I think this is just one more piece of evidence that Senator Obama thinks Americans are a ton smarter than most politicians, and many in this thread, give them credit for.
he has faith that they are smart enough to see through the "He's flip-flopped/He's a Muslim/He's too popular!/He's a messiah!!! bullshit, and see that he actually IS different. He actually will go against his party, if he sees a better answer. He actually WILL put away the my way or the highway politics we have all bought into. He actually will examine and change his stance, if he sees that a compromise will work toward a better solution for America in the future.

The only one you are BSing is yourself.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 11:13 AM
Do you think that’s a realistic goal?
Personally, I’ll wait and see what Barry Hussein's "plan" is but I’m not expecting much.

It was "put air in your tires", right?

markk
08-04-2008, 11:14 AM
Yes I do actually. We can do whatever we want if we all commit to it.

No oil consumption in 10 years?

He really must be the messiah.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 11:16 AM
No oil consumption in 10 years?

He really must be the messiah.

No ME oil. I haven't read the plan yet so we will see.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 11:20 AM
Personally I think McCain is full of shit too, that's why this congress has to act on this before Bush leaves office--- that guy hasn't vetoed anything since federal funding for embryonic stem cell research back in 2003.

irishjayhawk
08-04-2008, 11:22 AM
The newest JibJab cartoon is really applicable in this forum. Man.


How are voters not stupid? How is it a gamble to bet on that? How is it rolling the dice?

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 11:22 AM
Personally I think McCain is full of shit too, .

I agree and Obama just nails McCain on this today. He needs to put this in an ad.

"What Senator McCain neglected to mention was that during those thirty years, he was in Washington for twenty-six of them. And in all that time, he did little to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. He voted against increased fuel efficiency standards and opposed legislation that included tax credits for more efficient cars. He voted against renewable sources of energy. Against clean biofuels. Against solar power. Against wind power. Against an energy bill that – while far from perfect – represented the largest investment in renewable sources of energy in the history of this country. So when Senator McCain talks about the failure of politicians in Washington to do anything about our energy crisis, it’s important to remember that he’s been a part of that failure."

StcChief
08-04-2008, 11:28 AM
That’s the same excuse that’s been floated for the last 8-10 years, BTW.Nancy has to answer to CALI folks that still remember the spill that set all this in motion to stop drilling.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 11:28 AM
Obama's new energy plan. The headline that I read was wrong he doesn't say in his plan he will cut out ME oil so my apologies for misspeaking.

Obama’s comprehensive New Energy for America plan will:

• Provide short‐term relief to American families facing pain at the pump
• Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years
to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
• Within 10 years save more oil than we currently import from the Middle East and Venezuela
combined
• Put 1 million Plug‐In Hybrid cars – cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon – on the road by
2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America
• Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by
2025
• Implement an economy‐wide cap‐and‐trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80
percent by 2050

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 11:30 AM
Obama's new energy plan. The headline that I read was wrong he doesn't say in his plan he will cut out ME oil so my apologies for misspeaking.

Obama’s comprehensive New Energy for America plan will:

• Provide short‐term relief to American families facing pain at the pump
• Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years
to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
• Within 10 years save more oil than we currently import from the Middle East and Venezuela
combined
• Put 1 million Plug‐In Hybrid cars – cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon – on the road by
2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America
• Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by
2025
• Implement an economy‐wide cap‐and‐trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80
percent by 2050

In other words, we'll become like the Soviet Union circa 1985.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 11:34 AM
In other words, we'll become like the Soviet Union circa 1985.

I am actually a little disappointed we need to be more aggressive in getting off ME oil.

He does say in his plan he would drill some more in places but he doesn't specifically say offshore.

Promote the Responsible Domestic Production of Oil and Natural Gas. An Obama
administration will set up a process for early identification of any infrastructure
obstacles/shortages or possible federal permitting process delays to drilling in:
o Bakken Shale in Montana and North Dakota which could have as much as 4 billion
recoverable barrels of oil according to the U.S. Geological Survey.
o Unconventional natural gas supplies in the Barnett Shale formation in Texas and the
Fayetteville Shale in Arkansas.

o National Petroleum Reserve‐Alaska (NPR‐A) which comprises 23.5 million acres of federal
land set aside by President Harding to secure the nation's petroleum reserves for national
security purposes.
• Prioritize the Construction of the Alaska Natural Gas Pipeline. As president, Obama will work
with the Canadian government, state of Alaska, oil and gas producers, and other stakeholders to
facilitate construction of the pipeline. While this pipeline was proposed in 1976, and Congress
authorized up to $18 billion in loan guarantees for this project in 2004, there has been no progress
in building this critical energy infrastructure under the Bush Administration. The planned
pipeline would have a daily capacity of 4 billion cubic feet of natural gas, or almost 7 percent of
current U.S. consumption. Not only is this pipeline critical to our energy security, it will create
thousands of new jobs.
• Getting More from our Existing Oil Fields. Nationally, experts believe that up to 85 billion barrels
of technically recoverable oil remains stranded in existing fields. Enhanced oil recovery (EOR)
using carbon dioxide offers an immediate‐ to medium‐term opportunity to produce more oil from
existing fields. And in the EOR process, large quantities of CO2 can be sequestered underground,
reducing global warming pollution. Under an Obama Administration, we will pass a carbon cap‐
and‐trade‐bill, which will incentivize emitters to send their CO2 to old oil fields for EOR, thereby
providing economic benefits while also stimulating additional domestic oil and gas production. To
speed that process, we will map all stationary CO2 sources and develop a database to help
industry calculate the most cost‐effective oil field destination for each source's CO2.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 11:40 AM
I like these ideas. This is from politico

The three main components of Obama’s plan are:

— Get 1 million 150 mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrids on U.S. roads within six years.

— Require that 10 percent of U.S. energy comes from renewable sources by the end of his first term – more than double the current level.

—Reduce U.S. demand for electricity 15 percent by 2020.
“If I am president, I will immediately direct the full resources of the federal government and the full energy of the private sector to a single, overarching goal — in 10 years, we will eliminate the need for oil from the entire Middle East and Venezuela,” Obama said.

“To do this, we will invest $150 billion over the next 10 years and leverage billions more in private capital to build a new energy economy that harnesses American energy and creates 5 million new American jobs.”

To set an example, Obama is vowing to convert the entire White House fleet to plug-in hybrid vehicles within one year, and convert all federal vehicle purchases to plug-in hybrids or all-electric by 2012.

The plans include a $7,000 tax credit to drivers who buy advanced-technology vehicles and $4 billion in direct assistance to Detroit (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=Detroit) automakers to help them build hybrid vehicles in the U.S. (http://search.politico.com/results.cfm?subject=United+States)

Radar Chief
08-04-2008, 11:57 AM
Nice flowery campaign promises.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 12:09 PM
Interesting...


The three main components of Obama’s plan are:

— Get 1 million 150 mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrids on U.S. roads within six years.

Considering we have no such thing today and no battery technology even on the horizon...this is a helluva reach. Plus, the cost has to compete with internal cumbustion and we will need to build electric generators to feed these beasts.

— Require that 10 percent of U.S. energy comes from renewable sources by the end of his first term – more than double the current level.

How? Utilities are not responsible to the federal government. He cannot order Union Electric to change how they do business. The states are all screwed up as well. When Kansas turns down wind because of "visual polution" in the flint hills and Sebelius stops a new high tech clean coal plant, whats that tell you about the Federal level being able to do squat?

—Reduce U.S. demand for electricity 15 percent by 2020.
“If I am president, I will immediately direct the full resources of the federal government and the full energy of the private sector to a single, overarching goal — in 10 years, we will eliminate the need for oil from the entire Middle East and Venezuela,” Obama said.

Ok, then how do we power these electric cars?

“To do this, we will invest $150 billion over the next 10 years and leverage billions more in private capital to build a new energy economy that harnesses American energy and creates 5 million new American jobs.”

Doing what exactly? Can't build nuc plants. Cant drill for oil. Cant have ugly wind generators that kill birds. Cant build new refineries. He is running for President. He is not being converted to a Nobel physics prize winner. He has no more idea how to do what hes talking about than I know how to fly the space shuttle.

To set an example, Obama is vowing to convert the entire White House fleet to plug-in hybrid vehicles within one year, and convert all federal vehicle purchases to plug-in hybrids or all-electric by 2012.

And the current fleet will be sold at auction thus still be on the road while he explains to the Secret Service why they have to protect him in a two door car.

The plans include a $7,000 tax credit to drivers who buy advanced-technology vehicles and $4 billion in direct assistance to Detroit automakers to help them build hybrid vehicles in the U.S.

No doubt this comes from those taxes on the rich?

markk
08-04-2008, 12:20 PM
No ME oil. I haven't read the plan yet so we will see.

where's it going to come from then, since he opposes domestic drilling?

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 12:21 PM
where's it going to come from then, since he opposes domestic drilling?

Hope.

Change.

***SPRAYER
08-04-2008, 12:24 PM
If Jesus can feed 5,000 with two loaves of bread and two fish, then by golly B.O. can create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years!

Hope and Change! The great leap forward!

ROFL

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 12:52 PM
Interesting...


The three main components of Obama’s plan are:

— Get 1 million 150 mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrids on U.S. roads within six years.

Considering we have no such thing today and no battery technology even on the horizon...this is a helluva reach. Plus, the cost has to compete with internal cumbustion and we will need to build electric generators to feed these beasts.

— Require that 10 percent of U.S. energy comes from renewable sources by the end of his first term – more than double the current level.

How? Utilities are not responsible to the federal government. He cannot order Union Electric to change how they do business. The states are all screwed up as well. When Kansas turns down wind because of "visual polution" in the flint hills and Sebelius stops a new high tech clean coal plant, whats that tell you about the Federal level being able to do squat?

—Reduce U.S. demand for electricity 15 percent by 2020.
“If I am president, I will immediately direct the full resources of the federal government and the full energy of the private sector to a single, overarching goal — in 10 years, we will eliminate the need for oil from the entire Middle East and Venezuela,” Obama said.

Ok, then how do we power these electric cars?

“To do this, we will invest $150 billion over the next 10 years and leverage billions more in private capital to build a new energy economy that harnesses American energy and creates 5 million new American jobs.”

Doing what exactly? Can't build nuc plants. Cant drill for oil. Cant have ugly wind generators that kill birds. Cant build new refineries. He is running for President. He is not being converted to a Nobel physics prize winner. He has no more idea how to do what hes talking about than I know how to fly the space shuttle.

To set an example, Obama is vowing to convert the entire White House fleet to plug-in hybrid vehicles within one year, and convert all federal vehicle purchases to plug-in hybrids or all-electric by 2012.

And the current fleet will be sold at auction thus still be on the road while he explains to the Secret Service why they have to protect him in a two door car.

The plans include a $7,000 tax credit to drivers who buy advanced-technology vehicles and $4 billion in direct assistance to Detroit automakers to help them build hybrid vehicles in the U.S.

No doubt this comes from those taxes on the rich?

To answer your questions:

1. Plug in hybrids exist today. The Chevy Volt which is coming out this year IIRC is one example.

2. That is a good question and I am not educated enough in that area to give you an answer.

3. Clean coal and green energy.

4. In his plan Obama states he would build nuclear plants as long as there is a safe way to store the waste not including Yucca mountain.

5. NY city is already moving to hybrids and green cars. You bitch either way.

6. Comes from the windfall profit tax.

SBK
08-04-2008, 12:58 PM
The best way to get off foreign oil is to DRILL FOR OUR OWN OIL.

No go fill your tires up you ignorant b!tches while your messiah invests 150 million to create 5 million new jobs.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 12:59 PM
To answer your questions:

1. Plug in hybrids exist today. The Chevy Volt which is coming out this year IIRC is one example.

2. That is a good question and I am not educated enough in that area to give you an answer.

3. Clean coal and green energy.

4. In his plan Obama states he would build nuclear plants as long as there is a safe way to store the waste not including Yucca mountain.

5. NY city is already moving to hybrids and green cars. You bitch either way.

6. Comes from the windfall profit tax.

The current technology wont get you round trip Clinton to KC and back. Who will buy them...come on ....realistically I 100% agree with the goal but see it as totally unrealistic campagn puffery. Obama cant make it happen so whats he going around saying he can?

He has come out against Nuclear...as with most of his stands, he follows the ideals of the bible and has conflicting points so all can find a line they like.

Im not "bitching" Im being realistic. Politicians make these freaking pledges and have no more way to make it happen than a man in the moon yet people swoon and say see he has a plan. I have a plan to double my net worth in 4 years too. No idea how but its the plan.

He will spend the WPT 10 times over between now and November. Thats a crock.

markk
08-04-2008, 01:01 PM
Hope.

Change.

Hope in one hand, sh*t in the other, see which one fills up first

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:08 PM
The current technology wont get you round trip Clinton to KC and back. Who will buy them...come on ....realistically I 100% agree with the goal but see it as totally unrealistic campagn puffery. Obama cant make it happen so whats he going around saying he can?

He has come out against Nuclear...as with most of his stands, he follows the ideals of the bible and has conflicting points so all can find a line they like.

Im not "bitching" Im being realistic. Politicians make these freaking pledges and have no more way to make it happen than a man in the moon yet people swoon and say see he has a plan. I have a plan to double my net worth in 4 years too. No idea how but its the plan.

He will spend the WPT 10 times over between now and November. Thats a crock.

Yes the current technology won't but in 5 years from now don't you think it is possible? He is only talking about 1 million cars. Toyota has already sold over 100,000 Prius this year in the US and has already surpassed 1 million globally. You can't tell me that getting 1 million cars in 5 years isn't possible. That is just silly IMO.

I agree with you about pledges or promises and half the time they never pan out but at least he has a plan unlike drill McCain.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 01:11 PM
Have you studied McCains proposals at all?

markk
08-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Yes the current technology won't but in 5 years from now don't you think it is possible? He is only talking about 1 million cars. Toyota has already sold over 100,000 Prius this year in the US and has already surpassed 1 million globally. You can't tell me that getting 1 million cars in 5 years isn't possible. That is just silly IMO.

I agree with you about pledges or promises and half the time they never pan out but at least he has a plan unlike drill McCain.

A Prius isn't a plug in hybrid. In fact they only get 1/3 of the mileage that whatever you are cutting and pasting claims.

Are you telling me that 1 million of these 150mpg cars on the road in 5 years is likely even though not one has been sold up to this point?

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:16 PM
Have you studied McCains proposals at all?

Ype and it is pretty empty.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:17 PM
A Prius isn't a plug in hybrid. In fact they only get 1/3 of the mileage that whatever you are cutting and pasting claims.

Are you telling me that 1 million of these 150mpg cars on the road in 5 years is likely even though not one has been sold up to this point?

Duh it was an example. The Chevy Volt is a plug in hybrid and are you telling me Chevy can't sell 1 million of those total in the next 10 years?

SBK
08-04-2008, 01:19 PM
Duh it was an example. The Chevy Volt is a plug in hybrid and are you telling me Chevy can't sell 1 million of those total in the next 10 years?

If it hits the market at a pricing point that the consumer agrees with it could. The only way to guarantee that x number of cars are on the road by a certain date is to force people to buy them.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 01:19 PM
http://www.johnmccain.com//Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

Perhaps you define empty differently than I do.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:22 PM
If it hits the market at a pricing point that the consumer agrees with it could. The only way to guarantee that x number of cars are on the road by a certain date is to force people to buy them.

If gas prices remain high they will sell like hotcakes. I was talking to a Toyota salesman the other day and he told me Toyota can't make enough Prius's because of the demand. They have had to go cross country to get some because they are hard to find.

markk
08-04-2008, 01:23 PM
Duh it was an example. The Chevy Volt is a plug in hybrid and are you telling me Chevy can't sell 1 million of those total in the next 10 years?

You said 1 million in 5 years.

And no, given that it costs, what, $50k... I don't think it's possible to sell 1 million of those in 5 years. They may not even be able to produce that many is the primary issue.

SBK
08-04-2008, 01:26 PM
If gas prices remain high they will sell like hotcakes. I was talking to a Toyota salesman the other day and he told me Toyota can't make enough Prius's because of the demand. They have had to go cross country to get some because they are hard to find.

You can't say that for sure. The whole auto industry is getting killed.

What if lending requirements change, get much more restrictive? What if people stop buying new cars altogether? Heck, the whole auto industry is getting away from leasing, from BMW to Chrysler canceling it altogether.

If the Volt is $50,000 do you think it would change the number of sales compared to it being $20,000? If you can lease it will more people buy one than if you can only own it? What if lending changes and you have to put $5,000-$10,000 down? What if the economy tanks?

And all this is coming from a guy that would give the Volt a long hard look (at the right pricing point of course)..

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:27 PM
http://www.johnmccain.com//Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

Perhaps you define empty differently than I do.

Alot of words but no substance. Plus he lied he has voted no against CAFE standards since 2002.

2005: McCain Voted Against Increasing CAFE Standards. In 2005, McCain voted against an amendment that would mandate phased increases in CAFE standards. Passenger vehicles made before 2008 would have to average 25 miles per gallon, and the standard would gradually increase to 40 miles per gallon by model year 2016. By model year 2016, the standard would rise to an average of 27.5 miles per gallon. The amendment failed 28-67. [2005 Senate Vote 157, 6/23/05]
2003: McCain Voted Against Raising CAFE Standards. In 2003, McCain voted against an amendment that would mandate an increase in CAFE standards. Passenger vehicles made before 2006 would have to average 25 miles per gallon. After that, the standard would gradually increase to 40 miles per gallon by model year 2015. Non-passenger vehicles made before 2006 would have to average 17 miles per gallon. By model year 2015, they would have to average 27.5 miles per gallon. The amendment failed 32-65. [2003 Senate Vote #309, 7/29/2003]
2002: McCain Voted Against Directing The NHTSA To Set A New CAFE Standard Within 15 Months. McCain voted against passage of a bill that would overhaul the nation’s energy policies, restructure the electricity system and provide for approximately $15 billion in energy-related tax incentives. It also would direct the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to set a new CAFE standard within 15 months to two years. It would encourage the use of alternative energy and require utilities to increase their reliance on renewable fuels. [2002 Senate Vote #94, 4/25/2002]

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:30 PM
You said 1 million in 5 years.

And no, given that it costs, what, $50k... I don't think it's possible to sell 1 million of those in 5 years. They may not even be able to produce that many is the primary issue.

No Obama plan is 1 million 150mpg plug in hybrids. My point was to HCF who said that the Volt doesn't get that yet and I said I am sure they would in 5 years.

Also this is just not the Volt it is every car manufacturer making these types of cars. You are only talking about selling 100,000 plug in hybrids per year. That is simple.

markk
08-04-2008, 01:31 PM
And all this is coming from a guy that would give the Volt a long hard look (at the right pricing point of course)..

Who wouldn't? The problem is that nobody can afford it.

And that production doesn't start for like 2 more years.

And this:


production [is] expected to begin in 2010...

early estimates, from GM staff, were of initial annual production of 60,000 units, but these claims have been scaled back to a planned 10,000 units, as of May 2008, with a ramp up to 60,000 units in the second year.


So, for the 2011 model year we'll have 10,000 units, in 2012 we'll have 60,000 units.

That means 930,000 will need to be made and sold the fifth year to meet the "1 million hybrids" pledge.

HonestChieffan
08-04-2008, 01:32 PM
MCCain and Cafe....

Hmm…

“[McCain] has a curious hostility toward America’s most important manufacturing industry, one that accounts directly and indirectly for roughly one in seven jobs nationwide. … As for CAFE, McCain is correct in stating that the industry has fought hard against higher fuel standards. As a senator whose job it is to protect American interests, McCain should join them. CAFE has cost the jobs of American autoworkers.” (Editorial, “Automakers Don’t Deserve McCain’s Disdain,” The Detroit News, 2/27/03)

In 2002, Sen. McCain Teamed With Democrat Sen. John Kerry To Propose Higher CAFE Standards. “For the latest time since losing his bid for the GOP presidential nomination two years ago, Senate Commerce ranking member John McCain, R-Ariz., has teamed up with a prominent Democrat on legislation bitterly opposed by the Bush administration. This time, the issue is higher mileage standards for automobiles–and his partner is Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass. McCain and Kerry Thursday agreed to introduce legislation that would increase fuel efficiency standards to 36 miles per gallon by 2015.” (”McCain Again Teams Up With Dems,” National Journal’s CongressDaily, 3/8/02)

Sen. McCain Voted Against Requiring That CAFE “Not Have An Adverse Impact On The Economy, Consumer Choice, And Auto Safety.” (S. 14, CQ Vote #310: Adopted 66-30: R 45-6; D 21-23; I 0-1, 7/29/03, McCain Voted Nay)

Sen. McCain Knows That His Push For Higher CAFE Standards Is The Same As Higher Taxes. “Sen. John McCain didn’t expect an enthusiastic response this morning when he touted the need for higher fuel standards to the Detroit Economic Club. No surprise, the crowd didn’t exactly embrace the idea. Asked how raising Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards was ‘different than raising taxes,’ McCain acknowledged he didn’t think his proposal would be very popular. ‘I know, I said it’s a tough issue. CAFE standards have to be improved. There’s too much pollution in the environment, there’s too much dependency on foreign oil and we’re going to have to take a number of steps,’ McCain told the crowd. He finished his answer to dead silence.” (Amy Schatz, “McCain Urges Higher CAFE Standards – In Motor City,” The Wall Street Journal’s Washington Wire, http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire, Posted 10/9/07)

General Motors Predicted The McCain-Kerry CAFE Plan Could Cost As Many As 100,000 Jobs. “Major automakers characterize the Kerry-McCain plan as a reckless attempt to legislate technology that could curtail sales of their most profitable SUVs and pickups. General Motors Corp. says that as many as 100,000 jobs would be lost.” (Jeff Plungis, “Automakers Support Alternate CAFE Proposal,” The Detroit News, 3/11/02)

McCain’s Support Of Higher CAFE Standards Will Cost The Auto Industry Billions And Will Impact Jobs. “McCain, together with Democrat John Kerry, were initial co-sponsors of the 35 mpg (so-called CAFE) mandate that just passed Congress — legislation that economists predict will cost the domestic auto industry $85 billion over a decade and impact thousands of jobs.” (Henry Payne, Op-Ed, “Taxing Michigan,” National Review, 1/11/08)

“AUTOMAKERS DON’T DESERVE MCCAIN’S DISDAIN”
Sen. McCain’s Push For Higher CAFE Standards
Reveals A “Curious Hostility” Toward Detroit
“[McCain] has a curious hostility toward America’s most important manufacturing industry, one that accounts directly and indirectly for roughly one in seven jobs nationwide. … As for CAFE, McCain is correct in stating that the industry has fought hard against higher fuel standards. As a senator whose job it is to protect American interests, McCain should join them. CAFE has cost the jobs of American autoworkers.” (Editorial, “Automakers Don’t Deserve McCain’s Disdain,” The Detroit News, 2/27/03)

Sen. McCain Voted Against Requiring That CAFE Standards Be Economically Feasible. (H.R. 6, CQ Vote #156: Adopted 64-31: R 46-7; D 18-23; I 0-1, 6/23/05, McCain Voted Nay)

Sen. McCain Voted Against Requiring That CAFE “Not Have An Adverse Impact On The Economy, Consumer Choice, And Auto Safety.” (S. 14, CQ Vote #310: Adopted 66-30: R 45-6; D 21-23; I 0-1, 7/29/03, McCain Voted Nay)

Sen. McCain Voted In Favor Of Higher CAFE Standards For Pickup Trucks. (S. 517, CQ Vote #48: Adopted 56-44: R 40-9; D 16-34: I 0-1, 3/13/02, McCain Voted Nay)

Sen. McCain Knows That His Push For Higher CAFE Standards Is The Same As Higher Taxes. “Sen. John McCain didn’t expect an enthusiastic response this morning when he touted the need for higher fuel standards to the Detroit Economic Club. No surprise, the crowd didn’t exactly embrace the idea. Asked how raising Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards was ‘different than raising taxes,’ McCain acknowledged he didn’t think his proposal would be very popular. ‘I know, I said it’s a tough issue. CAFE standards have to be improved. There’s too much pollution in the environment, there’s too much dependency on foreign oil and we’re going to have to take a number of steps,’ McCain told the crowd. He finished his answer to dead silence.” (Amy Schatz, “McCain Urges Higher CAFE Standards – In Motor City,” The Wall Street Journal’s Washington Wire, http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire, Posted 10/9/07)

The Detroit News: “CAFE Has Cost The Jobs Of American Autoworkers.” (Editorial, “Automakers Don’t Deserve McCain’s Disdain,” The Detroit News, 2/27/03)

General Motors Predicted The McCain-Kerry CAFE Plan Could Cost As Many As 100,000 Jobs. “Major automakers characterize the Kerry-McCain plan as a reckless attempt to legislate technology that could curtail sales of their most profitable SUVs and pickups. General Motors Corp. says that as many as 100,000 jobs would be lost.” (Jeff Plungis, “Automakers Support Alternate CAFE Proposal,” The Detroit News, 3/11/02)

McCain’s Support Of Higher CAFE Standards Will Cost The Auto Industry Billions And Will Impact Jobs. “McCain, together with Democrat John Kerry, were initial co-sponsors of the 35 mpg (so-called CAFE) mandate that just passed Congress — legislation that economists predict will cost the domestic auto industry $85 billion over a decade and impact thousands of jobs.” (Henry Payne, Op-Ed, “Taxing Michigan,” National Review, 1/11/08)

McCain “Blasted” The Automotive Industry For Resisting Changes. “McCain blasted the automakers for resisting the changes. ‘The auto industry has resisted every single change in safety and efficiency for over 40 years,’ he said. ‘At one time they were against seat belts. At one time they were against air bags.’” (Deirdre Shesgreen, “Senate Applies Brakes To Plan Calling For Higher Fuel Efficiency Standards,” St. Louis Post Dispatch, 3/14/02)

The Detroit News: McCain Treated Automakers Like “They Were A Bunch Of Tobacco Executives.” “John McCain opened Senate hearings on the safety of sports-utility vehicles (SUVs) by treating the nation’s automakers as if they were a bunch of tobacco executives.” (Editorial, “Automakers Don’t Deserve McCain’s Disdain,” The Detroit News, 2/27/03)

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:38 PM
You can't say that for sure. The whole auto industry is getting killed.

What if lending requirements change, get much more restrictive? What if people stop buying new cars altogether? Heck, the whole auto industry is getting away from leasing, from BMW to Chrysler canceling it altogether.

If the Volt is $50,000 do you think it would change the number of sales compared to it being $20,000? If you can lease it will more people buy one than if you can only own it? What if lending changes and you have to put $5,000-$10,000 down? What if the economy tanks?

And all this is coming from a guy that would give the Volt a long hard look (at the right pricing point of course)..

All fair points but then why try? Why don't we just keep drilling and importing oil from the ME and keep pushing the problem to the next generation.

I agree the price point is going to make a difference and IIRC the Volt is going to be around $30,000-$40,0000 but if you buy one at least with Obama you get a huge tax break on it. Don't know about McCain.

Chiefnj2
08-04-2008, 01:39 PM
The best way to get off foreign oil is to DRILL FOR OUR OWN OIL.

No go fill your tires up you ignorant b!tches while your messiah invests 150 million to create 5 million new jobs.

Don't we still have to ship out the crude to be refined and then puchase the product on the open market?

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:42 PM
MCCain and Cafe....

Hmm…



Thanks it seems he has a mixed record.

dirk digler
08-04-2008, 01:44 PM
1 model year we'll have 10,000 units, in 2012 we'll have 60,000 units.

That means 930,000 will need to be made and sold the fifth year to meet the "1 million hybrids" pledge.

Once again you are confusing me with Obama. Obama says 1 million 150mpg plug in hybrids sold in 10 years. That is very feasible.

mlyonsd
08-04-2008, 01:45 PM
Thanks it seems he has a mixed record.

It seems to me he's shown a willingness to compromise on the issue.

StcChief
08-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Dems evidently rolling the die voters are stupid
SSDE that's how they always do it.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2008, 05:17 PM
This thread has nothing to do with which energy policy will work. It has to do with the dems playing the game of good cop/bad cop just to trick stupid people into giving them their vote.

If Obama publicly denounces Pelosi's tactics let me know, I'll be the first to give him credit.

Still waiting on that.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2008, 05:22 PM
Palin's selection had nothing to do with McCain thinking the electorate is retarded.

***SPRAYER
08-31-2008, 06:49 PM
Palin's selection had nothing to do with McCain thinking the electorate is retarded.

The DNC selecting B.O. as their nominee did.