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thurman merman
08-07-2008, 10:48 AM
A friend of my parents is sentenced to be executed in a couple of weeks for being an accomplice in a murder in 1994. You can read the details of the incident below (written by his wife), and sign the petition if you feel inclined to do so. We are petitioning for his sentence to be changed to life in prison without parole, rather than death.

On Friday, despite the fact that we have two issues before the court, the Missouri Supreme Court set an execution date of Aug. 27. For those of you who would like to do anything to help try to prevent this state from killing my husband, your help is welcome and there are some fairly simple things you can do. For those who are not aware of the facts of the case, here are some main points:Allen Nicklasson, the man who shot and killed Richard Drummond in Aug. 1994 did so on his own after leaving Dennis behind in the stolen car. Allen has been consistent in telling the truth since day one - with his friends and close acquaintances, as well as with law enforcement - that Dennis had absolutely no idea that when Allen walked Drummond into the woods, Allen was going to shoot him. Allen had planned to tie Drummond up so that by the time Drummond could free himself and walk into town to all police, Allen, Dennis and Tim DeGraffenreid would be back in Blue Springs, hiding out.Instead, Allen decided to kill Drummond. His statements to police have been consistent and truthful, but the state successfully kept Allen from testifying in trial. The jury never heard the truth and thus convicted Dennis for first-degree murder as an accomplice. Allen has tried through the years to be heard in court, but the appellate courts denied him that right as well. We are still trying to get the Supreme Court to look at Allen's statements. Dennis is not an innocent victim, but he is innocent of first-degree murder. We are not asking that he be freed. We believe the sentence of death is excessive in this case, and that society would be safe and justice would be served through clemency, which means we want the governor to change Dennis' sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole.In addition, Dennis has been actively involved in restorative justice even before the program was established at Potosi Correctional Center. He is the editor of Compassion, a publication written and edited by death row inmates across the country who have raised more than $34,000 in college scholarships for family members of murdered victims. This scholarship goes to family members regardless of their stance on the death penalty. For example, Zach Osbourne, one of the recipients, supports the death penalty openly and is going to school to become a police officer. Dennis compiled a book, "Today's Choices Affect Tomorrow's Dreams," that is distributed for free to juvenile centers around the country. The book has been so popular, he has been asked to do another. That book is currently being compiled.Dennis is chairman of the prison's Hospice group and has cared for many dying prison patients through the years. He is a co-founder of 4-H LIFE, a family strengthening program that teaches inmates to be better parents and includes a family 4-H meeting each month inside the prison. As a former president and officer of 4-H, Dennis has led fundraisers to send money to children's programs in the state and to send 4-H LIFE members to summer camp and state leadership programs. 4-H LIFE has won several awards and is now active in several other prisons.Dennis has actively worked to build bridges between the Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Islamic and Native American religious groups at the prison. He is a founder of the Charity Carnival - in its second year - that raises money inside the prison for charitable organizations. The carnival is today, but he is locked up and cannot carry out his responsibilities for that event.Dennis speaks to university student groups on a regular basis to give them insight into the death penalty and prison life. He is, and remains, a positive spokesman and positive role models for other prisoners.He is a leader in the Set Free Ministry, a prison ministry that works with thousands of inmates in Missouri and Illinois to help them in their Christian walk. The Ministry has grown from an office of three to an office of around 20 inmates at PCC and a second office in Charleston's prison. The Ministry continues to expand in prisons in the two states as well as into jails.All of this is documented, not the exaggerated account of a wife desperate to save her husband.For those of you who have asked, I am terrified, but determined to fight for justice for my family. Murdering my husband is not justice - it is harming me, my son, Dennis' sisters, brother, nephews, aunts uncles, friends, etc. He is my soulmate, for those of you who understand what that means. A date is an extremely serious situation, but we have issues to pursue and this does not mean we're done. Please do not assume that this is inevitable, even though we have a very, very difficult fight in the next 32 days.I appreciate your support in any way. Should you want to write letters, file amicus briefs (friend of the court) with your church or other organization, let me know and I'll give you more info. If you choose to pray, please ask God to intervene and see that Dennis receives a lesser sentence.Thanks.

You can sign the petition at the link below. Thanks.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/help-dennis-skillicorn

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:05 AM
I'd like to see/hear the other side of the story.

Baby Lee
08-07-2008, 11:05 AM
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:PVURhhfQEggJ:caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/8th/053729P.pdf+%22state+v.+skillicorn%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

petegz28
08-07-2008, 11:11 AM
Hate to ask this but I didn't see it....did the person you know call the cops and rat out his friend?

Frazod
08-07-2008, 11:15 AM
Personally, I'd rather die than spend decades of non-life in prison.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:15 AM
After reading the court document.....He was involved in drugs, burglary, the murder of 2 men who stopped only to help them in separate states, and he continued on the crime spree with the man, and killed a waitress.


I'm not going to be able to sign that petition.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 11:16 AM
I did a bit of research and it seems this guy and two friends headed across Missouri to buy some drugs. On the way back their car broke down. They burglerized a house for money to fix their car. They didn't have enough money for the repairs, so they took off again in the car. It broke down again and this Drummond guy stops to help them out. As thanks for this favor, they steal the guy's car, drive him into the woods and shoot him dead. Yeah, your parents friend didn't actually pull the trigger, but I can't say I'd feel one bit sorry for him on August 27th, when they strap him in to "old sparky".

Hydrae
08-07-2008, 11:17 AM
After reading the court document.....He was involved in drugs, burglary, the murder of 2 men who stopped only to help them in separate states, and he continued on the crime spree with the man, and killed a waitress.


I'm not going to be able to sign that petition.

Thank you, that expresses it well.

CoMoChief
08-07-2008, 11:18 AM
After reading the court document.....He was involved in drugs, burglary, the murder of 2 men who stopped only to help them in separate states, and he continued on the crime spree with the man, and killed a waitress.


I'm not going to be able to sign that petition.

I agree.

Demonpenz
08-07-2008, 11:18 AM
signed and done

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:19 AM
He then followed the same guy, who killed Mr Drummond to another state, where they became stuck in the sand, and another man stopped to help them. To thank HIM, they shot and killed him, before committing more crimes prior to killing a waitress. He had plenty of opportunity to get out of that situation and didn't. Ride the Lightening.

I knew a guy executed in Missouri in the 90s via a relative, and he deserved it too.

Hoover
08-07-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm against the death penalty, except in cases of treason against our country.

Yeah, I'm one of those heartless Republicans to boot.

We live in a nation that can amend and change its laws, so how can we have a punishment that can’t also be reversed?

If you have the death penalty, then it needs to be equally applied. So if OJ was found guilty you fry the mofo, now of this life for you, but we are going to fry your ass.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 11:21 AM
HE"S FRYYYIN NOW!!!!!







Sounds like he deserves it, but, yes, I am ashamed of this post.

Hoover
08-07-2008, 11:22 AM
All that said, I will not sign the petition even though I think it would be much more difficult to rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 11:24 AM
I would rather be fried.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 11:25 AM
He then followed the same guy, who killed Mr Drummond to another state, where they became stuck in the sand, and another man stopped to help them. To thank HIM, they shot and killed him, before committing more crimes prior to killing a waitress. He had plenty of opportunity to get out of that situation and didn't. Ride the Lightening.

I knew a guy executed in Missouri in the 90s via a relative, and he deserved it too.
There's more to the story...

Following this murder, Skillicorn and Nicklasson dropped DeGraffenreid off in Blue Springs, Missouri, and then fled the state. While on the run, in Arizona, Nicklasson shot and killed a man under circumstances similar to the Drummond murder the man tried to help them retrieve their car from where it was stuck in the sand. After killing this good Samaritan, the two went back to his house and Nicklasson killed the man's wife as well. Nicklasson and Skillicorn then absconded across California, stealing a purse from a woman in a supermarket and committing armed robbery along the way. They eventually made it to Mexico, where, according to Skillicorn, Nicklasson killed a waitress at a diner.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/475/475.F3d.965.05-3729.html

Radar Chief
08-07-2008, 11:28 AM
There's more to the story...

Wow. :shake:

Scorp
08-07-2008, 11:29 AM
According to Skillicorn's statement to the FBI, as Nicklasson helda gun to Drummond's head, Skillicorn asked Drummond questions ostensibly in orderto calm him down, but included in the questioning whether Drummond's "old lady"would miss him.



Sorry.... I have no sympathy for this P.O.S

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 11:29 AM
There's more to the story...

I no longer feel bad about my post.

Fry his ass.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 11:30 AM
Classy bunch your parents hang with.

In all seriousness, I'm surprised you have the audacity to ask for people to help this guy.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Good Grief, I missed that.

He sure sounds like a top shelf soul mate and friend.

There is surely are 2 people more deserving of the carbon footprint these two are wasting.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 11:32 AM
Yeah, the guy who condemns drinking, and reefer.

"Let's save a murderer"

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:36 AM
Maybe while he's walking the green mile, one of the guards will ask him questions to calm his nerves....maybe throw in "do you think your old lady will miss you" for good measure.


I'm sure this is a difficult thing for his family to go through and I feel bad for his wife and family, knowing what looms. Its all on him and not the state.

This petition does NOT accurately reflect the true nature of this crime.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 11:41 AM
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:PVURhhfQEggJ:caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/8th/053729P.pdf+%22state+v.+skillicorn%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Holy cow.


Sorry, thurman. I'm not a huge fan of the death penalty, but I don't see any reason to place myself in his camp.

Do your parents know the whole story? This guy is indefensible. If this dude is the wife's "soulmate", I think I'd be distancing myself from the wife, too.

petegz28
08-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Yeah I am sorry it is hard to have sypmpathy after so many innocent people lost their lives.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm against the death penalty.

This man may well be deserving of death, but who are equally fallible human beings to decide that?

JBucc
08-07-2008, 11:49 AM
I don't think we should waste the $$$ for electricity on him. Baseball bats and Crowbars are much cheaper.

Frazod
08-07-2008, 11:51 AM
I'm against the death penalty.

This man may well be deserving of death, but who are equally fallible human beings to decide that?

People who resent our fellow citizens being led off into the woods and murdered after they dared to offer aid to strangers. That's who.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 11:51 AM
I can not sign it as well.

I understand that sometimes things happen so quickly that you don't have time to think things over before it is done, but honestly this guy ran for a while and killed 3 more people (or at least assisted in killing). He knew what he was doing the whole time, and they killed innocent people who tried to help him. I am sorry for the wife for what she has to go through.

RJ
08-07-2008, 11:52 AM
That guy is getting the punishment he deserves. I think the death penalty should be reserved for the worst of the worst of crimes and this is one of them. Doesn't matter whether he ever actually pulled the trigger on any of the victims, he was equally responsible for their deaths.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 11:53 AM
No way in hell I'm signing that petition

Let him die

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm against the death penalty.

This man may well be deserving of death, but who are equally fallible human beings to decide that?

We are not, God is. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:54 AM
People who resent our fellow citizens being led off into the woods and murdered after they dared to offer aid to strangers. That's who.

As a father of 2, who often stops to help people broken down on the side of the road.....I am included with this statement.

People like this man are a good arguement for the Right to Carry...and need, even in a "quiet, rural area".

Deberg_1990
08-07-2008, 11:54 AM
He is the editor of Compassion, a publication written and edited by death row inmates across the country who have raised more than $34,000 in college scholarships for family members of murdered victims. This scholarship goes to family members regardless of their stance on the death penalty. For example, Zach Osbourne, one of the recipients, supports the death penalty openly and is going to school to become a police officer. Dennis compiled a book, "Today's Choices Affect Tomorrow's Dreams," that is distributed for free to juvenile centers around the country. The book has been so popular, he has been asked to do another. That book is currently being compiled.Dennis is chairman of the prison's Hospice group and has cared for many dying prison patients through the years. He is a co-founder of 4-H LIFE, a family strengthening program that teaches inmates to be better parents and includes a family 4-H meeting each month inside the prison. As a former president and officer of 4-H, Dennis has led fundraisers to send money to children's programs in the state and to send 4-H LIFE members to summer camp and state leadership programs. 4-H LIFE has won several awards and is now active in several other prisons.Dennis has actively worked to build bridges between the Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Islamic and Native American religious groups at the prison. He is a founder of the Charity Carnival - in its second year - that raises money inside the prison for charitable organizations. The carnival is today, but he is locked up and cannot carry out his responsibilities for that event.Dennis speaks to university student groups on a regular basis to give them insight into the death penalty and prison life. He is, and remains, a positive spokesman and positive role models for other prisoners.He is a leader in the Set Free Ministry, a prison ministry that works with thousands of inmates in Missouri and Illinois to help them in their Christian walk. The Ministry has grown from an office of three to an office of around 20 inmates at PCC and a second office in Charleston's prison. The Ministry continues to expand in prisons in the two states as well as into jails.


Why do these dudes always wait until they are behind bars to suddenly do something postive with their lives?

Sorry dude, RIP.

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 11:54 AM
just for cases like this alone, they should use the electric chair, crank up the voltage to..oh i dont know...30,000 and zap him repeatedly, in 9 second intervals, increasing in voltage by 10,000 per zap.

see how much pain a person can take.


maybe bring back "drawn and quartered" and make this prick an example.

There would be less crime if they would bring back all the tactics previously used in societies during the dark ages...to discourage actions such as this.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 11:54 AM
People who resent our fellow citizens being led off into the woods and murdered after they dared to offer aid to strangers. That's who.

At the end of the day those people are just as flawed and have no moral authority to make a decision on that man's life.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 11:54 AM
I see a metaphorical pitchfork in his ass after he's toasty as well.

That chair is the least of his problems.

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 11:55 AM
As a father of 2, who often stops to help people broken down on the side of the road.....I am included with this statement.

Do these types of stories give you pause about continuing to do this?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 11:56 AM
We are not, God is. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth

If that was a Biblical reference...
The dispensation of grace took precedence over the Old Testament way.
That would help my argument if anything.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 11:56 AM
yes, very much so

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 11:56 AM
At the end of the day those people are just as flawed and have no moral authority to make a decision on that man's life.

I'm not an unflawed human...But having never been a party to a crime spree that included the murder of 4 innocent people, at different times, i'm ok feeling superior to that scumbag.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 11:57 AM
So Thurman, are you ever going to reply to anyone on this thread and defend this guy? Do you really think he didn't do much wrong or are you just flatly against the death penalty?

Radar Chief
08-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Do these types of stories give you pause about continuing to do this?

Yes.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 11:57 AM
Can't sign this petition. Sounds like this guy is real piece of work. He deserves death as far as I can see. I am not against the death penalty. People that go around taking lives like it's nothing don't deserve to live. Sounds like this guy knew what he was doing.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 11:58 AM
At the end of the day those people are just as flawed and have no moral authority to make a decision on that man's life.

So everyone goes around murdering innocent people? A normal flaw like eating fast food too often is not equal to a flaw of murdering people for jollies.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 11:58 AM
It's interesting to me that his defense was focused on "he has a low IQ and was a follower" and now the argument to prevent execution is that he's a magazine editor and author doing great work.


I feel sorry for thurman if he's got any personal investment in this issue, because this thread is going to be a beatdown of the murderer.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 11:59 AM
I'm not an unflawed human...But having never been a party to a crime spree that included the murder of 4 innocent people, at different times, i'm ok feeling superior to that scumbag.

What does that sense of superiority really amount to though?

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 11:59 AM
I feel sorry for thurman if he's got any personal investment in this issue, because this thread is going to be a beatdown of the murderer.

I can't feel sorry for him

What did he think would happen besides this? I haven't seen a single person defend the guy's actions

Lzen
08-07-2008, 11:59 AM
At the end of the day those people are just as flawed and have no moral authority to make a decision on that man's life.

BS. Go hug a tree.

Frazod
08-07-2008, 12:00 PM
At the end of the day those people are just as flawed and have no moral authority to make a decision on that man's life.

BULLSHIT.

You really think that the jurors who deliberated on that sentence are as flawed as a pack of doped-out thugs on an interstate killing spree?

Are we just supposed to lay spread eagle for the scum of the earth and take whatever evil they decide to inflict upon us because we aren't gods?

Jesus can turn the other cheek. I want justice.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:00 PM
So everyone goes around murdering innocent people?

That's a strawman argument. Obviously I'm not licensing the killing of innocent people. I'm simply saying that if we value life we can't arbitrarily determine which lives are important.

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 12:00 PM
this just spawned a thread....in the DC forum...where this thread should be.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:00 PM
Do these types of stories give you pause about continuing to do this?

I've had pause....but more when considering picking up a hitch hiker. I've usually got something within reach that will assist in my safety though.

If I have the family with me, I'll not put them in that danger, but if I'm alone and have any time, I'll help.



I'm not in a city....I am in a rural area, and we're taught to help others. My grandpa did it, when I was a kid I watched my dad do it, and I always have. I've posted a thank you because some decent men stopped and helped my mother last year, so I intend to be the guy, that will help when I can.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:00 PM
BS. Go hug a tree.

Eloquent. You win.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:01 PM
At the end of the day those people are just as flawed and have no moral authority to make a decision on that man's life.

Are you not included in "those people"? So how do YOU have the moral authority to say he DOESN'T deserve it?

Seems like a double standard

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 12:01 PM
That's a strawman argument. Obviously I'm not licensing the killing of innocent people. I'm simply saying that if we value life we can't arbitrarily determine which lives are important.

No it's not. You're saying everyone is equally fallible, and obviously that is completely incorrect because everyone doesn't go around murdering people.

Sorry, but you look like a fool arguing this point.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:01 PM
If that was a Biblical reference...
The dispensation of grace took precedence over the Old Testament way.
That would help my argument if anything.

Thou shalt not commit murder Exodus 20:13

If anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone that he shall die, he is a murderer, the murderer shall be put to death Numbers 35:18

Do not accept ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death Numbers 35:30

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 12:02 PM
I'm interested in the "soulmate" aspect of this. I love my wife, but if she were ever to be involved in murder, let alone multiple such crimes, she would neither see nor hear from me again.

What say you Planet?

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 12:02 PM
For the record, I think MicJones' stance is fine if his philosophy is no death penalty for anyone, regardless of crime. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I think it's a valid position for signing such a petition.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:03 PM
You really think that the jurors who deliberated on that sentence are as flawed as a pack of doped-out thugs on an interstate killing spree?

In a grand sense? Absolutely.
Obviously, I've never taken another human being's life, but my view of the world makes me every bit as fallible as the next man. And since I'm finite and only capable of so much cognitively... I'm not qualified to make a decision on another human being's life.

Jesus can turn the other cheek. I want justice.

Not putting the man to death is hardly overlooking the crime altogether.
There are other ways to achieve retribution.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 12:03 PM
I'm interested in the "soulmate" aspect of this. I love my wife, but if she were ever to be involved in murder, let alone multiple such crimes, she would neither see nor hear from me again.

What say you Planet?


I would need to see a picture of your wife first.

Seriously, I wouldn't expect my wife to back me up on a multi-state killing spree. I expect loyalty from her in general, but a multi-state killing spree is beyond the line.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:03 PM
BULLSHIT.

You really think that the jurors who deliberated on that sentence are as flawed as a pack of doped-out thugs on an interstate killing spree?

Are we just supposed to lay spread eagle for the scum of the earth and take whatever evil they decide to inflict upon us because we aren't gods?

Jesus can turn the other cheek. I want justice.

Is this eloquent enough for you, Mic?

frazod said it well, IMO.

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 12:04 PM
micjones is midnight vulvas alias
too bad neither can get chicks
even though their moms are the towns bicycles

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Are you not included in "those people"? So how do YOU have the moral authority to say he DOESN'T deserve it?

I have no moral authority either way.
I'm fallible and only capable of such much understanding.
That alone should be enough to do away with capital punishment.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:04 PM
What does that sense of superiority really amount to though?

No murder convictions at this time. I know I'm not a thief, rapist, mollester, scumbag, woman or child abuser or murderer.

It amounts to my ability to sleep at night knowing I'm a decent human being, good citizen and great neighbor to have because I'm a moral, honest and hard working, father and husband.

What does your willingness to put yourself on the cross with this guy amount to though?

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:04 PM
:shake::shake:That's a strawman argument. Obviously I'm not licensing the killing of innocent people. I'm simply saying that if we value life we can't arbitrarily determine which lives are important.

The pussification of America continues.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:05 PM
Is this eloquent enough for you, Mic?

frazod said it well, IMO.

Using another man's argument?
Shameful.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:05 PM
That's a strawman argument. Obviously I'm not licensing the killing of innocent people. I'm simply saying that if we value life we can't arbitrarily determine which lives are important.

Arbitrarily? ROFL

That is a ridiculous argument.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:05 PM
:shake::shake:

The pussification of America continues.

You're right. We're pussies if we value life absolutely.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:06 PM
Arbitrarily? ROFL

That is a ridiculous argument.

More eloquence.
Leave the discussion to the adults.

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 12:07 PM
I've had pause....but more when considering picking up a hitch hiker. I've usually got something within reach that will assist in my safety though.

If I have the family with me, I'll not put them in that danger, but if I'm alone and have any time, I'll help.



I'm not in a city....I am in a rural area, and we're taught to help others. My grandpa did it, when I was a kid I watched my dad do it, and I always have. I've posted a thank you because some decent men stopped and helped my mother last year, so I intend to be the guy, that will help when I can.

I understand and I commend you for this attitude. If I'm ever in a bind, I hope you're the next one coming down the road.

That said, I tend to limit most of my assistance to calling for help via my cell when I see someone in need. A woman or young person might change this. Just seems too risky to do otherwise, for many different reasons.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:07 PM
For the record, I think MicJones' stance is fine if his philosophy is no death penalty for anyone, regardless of crime. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I think it's a valid position for signing such a petition.

Agreed. MicJones you have a right to believe what you want to believe, I just see it differently. I feel for the family of the victims, and in my opinion, if I were them I would want justice. Why should he live when he played God and helped decide who lived and who died.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:09 PM
No it's not. You're saying everyone is equally fallible, and obviously that is completely incorrect because everyone doesn't go around murdering people.

Fallible simply means, capable of error.
Liable to make a mistake.

If we're all equally prone to error are we really in a position to make irreversible decisions on the lives of other people?

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:09 PM
It is scary to think how an act of kindness could be the last act you make.

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 12:10 PM
dear therman,

looks like this thread went to hell in a handbasket.

also, chad pennington will be our new stating quarterback.

in regards to your soon to be parents fried friend, tell him to say hi to hussein.

have a sparkling day,

the wpi staff

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Using another man's argument?
Shameful.

Why? I happen to agree with that post 100% He just said it before I did. And you never answered his question. Are we supposed to just lay there and take it while scumbags like do whatever? Look, I'm sure everyone knows that if you murder someone in cold blood, you could get the death penalty. It's not like they stole a pack of gum from Walmart. The ended a life. Ask the victims' families if they don't think this guy deserves death. I wonder what they would say.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:10 PM
The good news Mic, is that this guy had the benefit of 12 persons on his jury, to help make sure the other 11 weren't making a mistake.

RJ
08-07-2008, 12:10 PM
For the record, I think MicJones' stance is fine if his philosophy is no death penalty for anyone, regardless of crime. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I think it's a valid position for signing such a petition.


I'm in agreement with that. I still think he's flat out wrong, but if you're against the death penalty then you have to be against it across the board. Which is something I just can't bring myself to do.........some people have done things so wrong and so horrible and so cruel that they just flat out deserve to die, that there is just no good reason to keep them alive.

Based on the information we have I'd never sign a petition asking for any concessions or leniency. Sometimes you gotta give the judge and jury the benefit of the doubt.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:11 PM
micjones is midnight vulvas alias
too bad neither can get chicks
even though their moms are the towns bicycles

This from the guy who came up with this...

A discussion about the practicality of the death penalty turned into a pissing match over who can "get chicks". And I'm the one with the trouble, right?
ROFL

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:11 PM
Fallible simply means, capable of error.
Liable to make a mistake.

If we're all equally prone to error are we really in a position to make irreversible decisions on the lives of other people?

I see what you are saying, but I'm asking you a serious, nonsarcastic question. Would you rather he be given life in prison?

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 12:11 PM
I would need to see a picture of your wife first.

Seriously, I wouldn't expect my wife to back me up on a multi-state killing spree. I expect loyalty from her in general, but a multi-state killing spree is beyond the line.

Indeed. There comes a point when the person whom you thought you were married to, related to, or otherwise associated with clearly marks him/herself as different, thus severing all ties.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Fallible simply means, capable of error.
Liable to make a mistake.

If we're all equally prone to error are we really in a position to make irreversible decisions on the lives of other people?

So your entire argument is based on the pretense that since everyone is physically capable of murder, we should not use capital punishment on anyone? Honestly, that's the most f'd up, backwards view I've ever heard. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions, period.

I guess I respect your opinion, but I'm thrilled yours is in the minority.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Agreed. MicJones you have a right to believe what you want to believe, I just see it differently. I feel for the family of the victims, and in my opinion, if I were them I would want justice. Why should he live when he played God and helped decide who lived and who died.

That's a good way to put it.

I agree with MicJones' general premise that life is sacred (though I'm a hypocrite because I kill bugs and spiders). I think my justification for the death sentence in cases like this is that the murderer violated this premise of sacredness (sacredity? sacredosity?), and therefore forfeits his right to expect the same. It's kind of a balancing of the karma of the universe.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Fallible simply means, capable of error.
Liable to make a mistake.

If we're all equally prone to error are we really in a position to make irreversible decisions on the lives of other people?

Are you just saying quotes from the Compassion?

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:13 PM
More eloquence.
Leave the discussion to the adults.

Adults? I have not heard an adult basis for your side of the argument. Keep trying.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:13 PM
You're right. We're pussies if we value life absolutely.

Yeah, I think it's pretty pussed to value the life, of a body dumping shitbag.


I feel more sorry for the chickens that colonel Sanders hangs with.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:13 PM
The good news Mic, is that this guy had the benefit of 12 persons on his jury, to help make sure the other 11 weren't making a mistake.

He was afforded due process in that regard, but...
The death penalty denies him due process of the law altogether...
This man can never benefit from new evidence or new law that could possibly mitigate his sentence or overturn his conviction.

Fairplay
08-07-2008, 12:15 PM
The spruce goose had a better take off then this thread.

Ala the Hindenberg.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 12:15 PM
He was afforded due process in that regard, but...
The death penalty denies him due process of the law altogether...
This man can never benefit from new evidence or new law that could possibly mitigate his sentence or overturn his conviction.

Tough shit. The husband and wife he killed can never see their children again.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:15 PM
That's a good way to put it.

I agree with MicJones' general premise that life is sacred (though I'm a hypocrite because I kill bugs and spiders). I think my justification for the death sentence in cases like this is that the murderer violated this premise of sacredness (sacredity? sacredosity?), and therefore forfeits his right to expect the same. It's kind of a balancing of the karma of the universe.

exactly. If the guy had gotten caught up in a situation that spun out of control and a life was taken, then yes, perhaps this man should have gotten life in prison. But they went on to kill two more people, the man was completely aware of what he was doing the whole time.

I agree with your balance statement 100%

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:15 PM
This man can never benefit from new evidence or new law that could possibly mitigate his sentence or overturn his conviction.

Unless it suddenly becomes legal to kill people then I think he'll be ok dead

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:15 PM
He's had ample opportunities for appeal, has admitted partaking in this crime and is not claiming to be innocent from what I read.

The 4 people he was involved in killing all had family and friends and lives that they'll have no opportunity for a single appeal.

This petition is false....it mentions only part of the evidence for the first killing, but overlooks the fact that they then went and killed his wife, who was uninvolved, and then 2 more individuals.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:16 PM
Yeah, I think it's pretty pussed to value the life, of a body dumping shitbag.

I don't give life.
So I tend to see it as much more valuable than the average person.
If I'm a pussy for that... So be it.

markk
08-07-2008, 12:17 PM
here is a death penalty case:


DES MOINES, Iowa -- Police have charged a teen driver in connection with a fatal crash that killed a motorcyclist Wednesday.

The crash between a car driven by Esther Chisala, 17, and a scooter happened at Martin Luther King Parkway and University Avenue at 10:54 a.m.

Witnesses told police that Chisala ran a red light and hit the motorcycle traveling westbound on University Avenue. The rider, James Miller, 46, was thrown into the car's windshield. Rescue crews performed CPR on him at the scene.

The same car was involved in a hit-and-run crash near Forest Avenue and Martin Luther King Parkway with a van owned by Iowa Homeless Youth Services a short time earlier, police said.

Witnesses followed the driver from the first crash scene and pointed her out to police.

Police said Miller died on the way to the hospital.

Victim's Widow Speaks Out

Miller's widow, Melody, said her husband was doing what he loved -- riding his scooter and going to garage sales. She said it's hard for the news to sink in that he's gone for good.

"He would give you his heart and soul to help you or to do something to make you smile," Melody Miller said.

The couple had been together 23 years and had one son together.

"It's going to be hard," Miller said. "He's 12 years old."

Miller said her son was home when police arrived to give her the bad news.

"I figured something else had happened -- not that," she said. "Not a fatality or finalization or something. It's an unbelievable feeling."

Miller said she was grateful for the witnesses who followed the driver so that someone can be held responsible in the case.

Witness Sees Both Crashes

A.J. Forneris saw both crashes from the doorway of Perry's Service Station.

"The little girl was coming up the street and hit a van, right down here in the alley. The van was pulling in and she rear-ended it," Forneris said.

When he ran out to help, Forneris said the driver took off.

"I ran out into the street to get her license number and she run the red light and hit the gentleman on the motorcycle," Forneris said. "Then she hit a light pole about a half block up the road. Hit a light pole, spun sideways and by then I was almost there.

Forneris said after hitting the light pole, the young female driver got out of her car and started to walk away.

"When she got out, I said 'you need to come up here.' I stood beside her and followed her all the way up and she just sat there and looked at the guy," said Forneris.

Forneris said the woman didn't appear to be in shock and tried to explain what had happened.

"She said, 'I was going too fast and hit the van and was trying to get away.' And I thought, unbelievable, if it weren't for the light pole, she would have been gone," Forneris said.

Charges

Police said Chisala was arrested and charged with vehicular homicide, two counts of leaving the scene of an accident and failure to render aid.

Chisala was taken to Meyer Hall.

Copyright 2008 by KCCI.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

MOhillbilly
08-07-2008, 12:17 PM
you pay to play.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:17 PM
Unless it suddenly becomes legal to kill people then I think he'll be ok dead

Murder hardly needs to become legal for new evidence to come available.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:18 PM
So your entire argument is based on the pretense that since everyone is physically capable of murder, we should not use capital punishment on anyone?

Capable of error Albert. Error.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:18 PM
I don't give life.
So I tend to see it as much more valuable than the average person.
If I'm a pussy for that... So be it.

You don't give life to animals either, but I'll bet you eat them.

Valiant
08-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Why do these dudes always wait until they are behind bars to suddenly do something postive with their lives?

Sorry dude, RIP.

Probably so they can convince dumb sheep of people to take up their cause and not put them to death.. See look at me now, I am doing good.. Don't kill me because I helped brutally murder people..

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Why? I happen to agree with that post 100% He just said it before I did. And you never answered his question. Are we supposed to just lay there and take it while scumbags like do whatever? Look, I'm sure everyone knows that if you murder someone in cold blood, you could get the death penalty. It's not like they stole a pack of gum from Walmart. The ended a life. Ask the victims' families if they don't think this guy deserves death. I wonder what they would say.

I did answer the question.
I said there were other ways to achieve retribution.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:20 PM
You don't give life to animals either, but I'll bet you eat them.

That's a 1:1 isn't it?
The killing of animals to live is directly in proportion to capital punishment.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Probably so they can convince dumb sheep of people to take up their cause and not put them to death.. See look at me now, I am doing good.. Don't kill me because I helped brutally murder people..

From this thread it's obvious that at least one guy has fallen for it. ROFL

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 12:20 PM
I'm not a proponent of the death penalty as a general rule, but I think it definitely has a place when the victim of some heinous act continues to be abused, in some way, by the perpetrator. For example, people like the sick bastard who raped and murdered Jessica Lunsford, the little girl in Florida who is the namesake for Jessica's Law, should not continue to live.

This animal received sexual gratification from his act and can continue to get his rocks off in prison from the mental images of the event. The poor little girl thus continues to be victimized. Same thing with her family.

RJ
08-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Murder hardly needs to become legal for new evidence to come available.



What sort of evidence? He has admitted to being present at all of the murders.

This isn't a case where DNA is going to prove something different. What do you think would ever change?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:20 PM
I see what you are saying, but I'm asking you a serious, nonsarcastic question. Would you rather he be given life in prison?

Yes.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Who knew that Truman Capote was among usth.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:21 PM
What would be your retribution? Nonsarcastic question by the way

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:21 PM
What sort of evidence? He has admitted to being present at all of the murders.

This isn't a case where DNA is going to prove something different. What do you think would ever change?

Maybe nothing at all.
The point is, this action would be irrevocable.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Murder hardly needs to become legal for new evidence to come available.

I must have missed the part where he claimed to have never been a part of anything

Demonpenz
08-07-2008, 12:22 PM
We shouldn't kill to teach other people not to kill

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:22 PM
By the way, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the "prefix" for this thread being "Life"

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:23 PM
What would be your retribution? Nonsarcastic question by the way

Life in prison.

I'm not sure how old this man is, but a 30 year sentence would certainly be retribution.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Would you feel that 30 years was enough if it was say, your father who had stopped to help these assholes?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:24 PM
I must have missed the part where he claimed to have never been a part of anything

He didn't kill the man. We know that much.

Maybe no new evidence comes available. The point is the corrective action would be irrevocable.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:24 PM
But three family's don't have a member of their families anymore. And we are going to put him up in prison and spend tax dollars on a man who killed 3 people. that is my point of view...by no means am I putting you down for your stance, this is a free country and you can believe what you want to believe.

I just look at it as, this man took 3 lives, destroyed 3 families...all for what? a broken down car and some drugs? There is no justification for what he did.

RJ
08-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Maybe nothing at all.
The point is, this action would be irrevocable.


As were his actions.

I don't think the death penalty should be given out lightly. I'm ok with the fact that death penalty cases take years to go through the courts. But there are times when it is the right decision.

Baby Lee
08-07-2008, 12:24 PM
I hope therman doesn't hold me responsible for the blowback. I objectively am, for posting the decision. But I consciously chose to post only the words of the Court of Appeals with no accompanying opinion of my own. I think that was a fair step using a credible source.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:25 PM
He didn't kill the man. We know that much.

Maybe no new evidence comes available. The point is the corrective action would be irrevocable.

Yeah, and the people that died as a part of all this will never had a chance at anything either, so tough shit, he should have thought about that before doing any of this shit

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:26 PM
Would you feel that 30 years was enough if it was say, your father who had stopped to help these assholes?

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to play this card.
You invoke my sentiments with this analogy...
And I think we all know that when an individual's feelings are involved they don't always make the most rational decisions.

If taking lives is wrong. It must be wrong across the board.

MOhillbilly
08-07-2008, 12:27 PM
We shouldn't kill to teach other people not to kill
its what keeps me from killing people.:evil:

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:27 PM
He didn't kill the man. We know that much.

Maybe no new evidence comes available. The point is the corrective action would be irrevocable.

I wrote incorrectly, no he didn't kill these people that we know of, he might have pulled the trigger, he might not have. Perhaps his friend said I killed the one so I'm going down anyways, I'll take the rap for all three. We don't know.

My point to this is, he assisted in killing three people in cold blood, over a series of many days. This isn't a case of an accidental murder where things got out of control too quickly it is murder with the intent of murder, and he was heavily involved.

Skip Towne
08-07-2008, 12:28 PM
That petition is a joke. This guy makes too many "mistakes". Fry him.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:28 PM
That's a 1:1 isn't it?
The killing of animals to live is directly in proportion to capital punishment.

Not at all. You said you value LIFE, and weren't inclined to make judgement on whether it could be taken, because you are not in position to give it. Yet you buy many animals to eat(which you can live without), but are in no position to give life to these animals. It's not a necessity, It's a way of humanity. Like Justice.

No I'm not a veggie.

Iowanian
08-07-2008, 12:28 PM
I guess I'll never be able to put a soldier who kills in defense of his country, a person who kills an intruder to defend his family, or the state for executing a murderer in equal position with a person that helps murder 4 people.

call me crazy, but I don't feel its the same thing.


Mic, I know many people(catholics) who strongly oppose the death penalty and abortion and hold similar opinions to yours on this topic. I respect the opinion, but I don't agree with it.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 12:28 PM
Mic - You are arguing two different points. I understand that you are against capital punishment. Many people are. In general, I am for the death penalty, although I think it should only be applied in extreme cases, where the evidence is overwhelming against the defendant.

This guy was guilty of participating in four murders, one of which took place in a state that uses the death penalty as a punishment for these types of crimes. From the evidence I have read, this guy deserves what he is getting. End of story.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:28 PM
I did answer the question.
I said there were other ways to achieve retribution.

Fine. Then we will continue to disagree. I still think scumbags like this deserve to die. I will continue to feel this way no matter how much you say. I believe in repentance and compassion. However, I also believe there is a price to pay for heinous crimes such as this. I don't believe the guy deserves to get any more tax payer funded room and board. I don't think the death penalty is for everyone, but is deserving for the ones that commit heinous crimes.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:29 PM
Yeah, and the people that died as a part of all this will never had a chance at anything either, so tough shit, he should have thought about that before doing any of this shit

Again, I can't argue that it isn't a fair sentence.
My argument is who am I to decide that?

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:29 PM
We shouldn't kill to teach other people not to kill

We should all just hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 12:29 PM
I'm not sure your argument of new evidence holds water in this case, MicJones. New punishments or treatments, perhaps. But in essence this guy is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, and what he's doing now is asking for mercy.

I think that reasonable arguments against the death penalty are:

1. General "life is sacred" mantra and it's somehow better to lock the guy in a dungeon than kill him.

2. Maybe we'll come up with some way to zap the guy's brain of the bad stuff and convert him into a productive citizen. (Still seems problematic to me that Charlie Manson can go get a job at Chik-Fil-A and not be traumatic for the victim's families, etc.)

3. Maybe the guy is innocent and new technologies or evidence will one day prove it.

#3 is a biggie for me. There are innocent people who have been executed, and that's horrific. Events of recent years have turned me against the death penalty in most cases for this reason. However, #3 doesn't apply in this case, and I'm not a huge supporter of #1 and #2.

WilliamTheIrish
08-07-2008, 12:30 PM
I tend to agree with Mic. I've sort of come full circle on this issue over the last 10 years. I'd rather the guy rotted in prison.

As an aside, if he is given the chair, I'm not going to shed a tear for him.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:32 PM
Not at all. You said you value LIFE, and weren't inclined to make judgement on whether it could be taken, because you are not in position to give it. Yet you buy many animals to eat(which you can live without), but are in no position to give life to these animals. It's not a necessity, It's a way of humanity. Like Justice.

No I'm not a veggie.

Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.

markk
08-07-2008, 12:32 PM
What sort of evidence? He has admitted to being present at all of the murders.

This isn't a case where DNA is going to prove something different. What do you think would ever change?

he was present at all of them. it sounds like the only leg the defense would have in that situation is 'i didn't know they were going to be killed'. that is just your word and the jury decides if they believe you.

JASONSAUTO
08-07-2008, 12:32 PM
i was friends with tim degraffenreid in elementary school real sad that he got tangled up in this shit, but i would still not sign a petition to save him or any of his "friends"

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.

I believe killing someone in cold blood, let alone many, makes their lives about as valuable as the ground those animals walk on.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.

Who are you to judge? How can you not judge for human lives but you can make a statement like this? You're getting ridiculous now.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:34 PM
Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.

Me too.

Just not this guys life. I see it as less valuable.

At least I can eat the animal.

bishop_74
08-07-2008, 12:35 PM
Tell that guy to enjoy his death. Too bad he abandoned his own family by committing these crimes. Makes what he did even worse. Not sure why his wife is so interested in saving him. Makes her a bad mother if you ask me. I wouldn't want that kind of influence in my kids life.

Skip Towne
08-07-2008, 12:35 PM
I tend to agree with Mic. I've sort of come full circle on this issue over the last 10 years. I'd rather the guy rotted in prison.

As an aside, if he is given the chair, I'm not going to shed a tear for him.

Remember Shannon Agofsky? The guy who robbed the Bank of Noel Mo? And murdered the banker? His life was spared and a couple of years later he killed a fellow inmate. He is now on death row where he should have been in the first place.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:35 PM
Who are you to judge? How can you not judge for human lives but you can make a statement like this? You're getting ridiculous now.

Humans have the ability to reason. Animals do not.
Carry on though...

You're right. I'm crazy.

Demonpenz
08-07-2008, 12:36 PM
We should all just hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

good song

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:36 PM
Remember Shannon Agofsky? The guy who robbed the Bank of Noel Mo? And murdered the banker? His life was spared and a couple of years later he killed a fellow inmate. He is now on death row where he should have been in the first place.

The Justice System is flawed.
And innocent people have been put to death.
This can be argued both ways.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 12:36 PM
Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.

I'm kinda the opposite. My hierarchy is:


1. Animals
2. (Close behind.) People I know and like.
3. People I don't know.
4. People I know and don't like.

eazyb81
08-07-2008, 12:36 PM
Who are you to judge? How can you not judge for human lives but you can make a statement like this? You're getting ridiculous now.

Totally agree, his view is comical at this point.

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 12:37 PM
Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.



which brings about a more suitable question....


Should Claythan start seeking out Prison Chicks who may be getting out in 2008, 2009, or 2010 for conjugal visits?


those women would be desperate as a wpi contributor or editor refreshing the fatchatter.com website seaching for new material

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:37 PM
Humans have the ability to reason. Animals do not.
Carry on though...

You're right. I'm crazy.

Animals do have the ability to reason, just not to the extent of humans

Nice try though

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:37 PM
Totally agree, his view is comical at this point.

I am seriously starting to consider the possibility that he is related to Denise.

Valiant
08-07-2008, 12:37 PM
In a grand sense? Absolutely.
Obviously, I've never taken another human being's life, but my view of the world makes me every bit as fallible as the next man. And since I'm finite and only capable of so much cognitively... I'm not qualified to make a decision on another human being's life.



Not putting the man to death is hardly overlooking the crime altogether.
There are other ways to achieve retribution.

Yet your tune would change greatly if your family was brutally murdered, especially if it were from them helping somebody..

Midnight_Vulture
08-07-2008, 12:38 PM
I hope he gets the death penalty and dies slowly. What a scumbag. And I am sure glad that you liberals feel soooo much compassion for death row convicts. Seriously, it warms my little heart.

Love your backwards...I mean...left wing thinking.

markk
08-07-2008, 12:38 PM
this guy is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, and what he's doing now is asking for mercy.


I agree. No doubt really that he's guilty, people are just asking for the state not to impose the sentence that the judge imposed?

I have no doubt that his attitude is different now that the day of reckoning for what he's done is approaching. But people like this don't deserve an exception to be made for them. He can't complain about the hand he dealt himself.

Baby Lee
08-07-2008, 12:38 PM
i was friends with tim degraffenreid in elementary school real sad that he got tangled up in this shit, but i would still not sign a petition to save him or any of his "friends"

I had an . . . acquaintence, wouldn't call him a friend, interacted with him more than most, but everybody bagged on him [he was a Claythan type, not that I'm suggesting Claythan has this guy's bad qualities, but he was the doughy boy who reveled in being picked on]. When I was in college, he and a buddy of his called upon a guy who had advertised a car for sale, test drove the car with the guy, killed him and took off in the car.

Ceej
08-07-2008, 12:38 PM
This thread needs more cowbell.

Baby Lee
08-07-2008, 12:40 PM
I agree. No doubt really that he's guilty, people are just asking for the state not to impose the sentence that the judge imposed?

I have no doubt that his attitude is different now that the day of reckoning for what he's done is approaching. But people like this don't deserve an exception to be made for them. He can't complain about the hand he dealt himself.

FTR, this appears to be a jury imposed sentence.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:40 PM
I watched Alpha Dog the other day. This situation reminds me of that in a way. Even though I like the Frankie character (and I guess the real person if this were similar to how he was in real life), but he deserved whatever punishment he ended up getting. The guy knew what was about to happen and didn't do anything to stop them from killing an innocent kid.

RJ
08-07-2008, 12:40 PM
I tend to agree with Mic. I've sort of come full circle on this issue over the last 10 years. I'd rather the guy rotted in prison.

As an aside, if he is given the chair, I'm not going to shed a tear for him.



I can see a good argument for abolishing the death penalty and if that ever happened I'd be ok with the decision. But having said that, as long as it exists this is the sort of case it exists for.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:41 PM
I had an . . . acquaintence, wouldn't call him a friend, interacted with him more than most, but everybody bagged on him [he was a Claythan type, not that I'm suggesting Claythan has this guy's bad qualities, but he was the doughy boy who reveled in being picked on]. When I was in college, he and a buddy of his called upon a guy who had advertised a car for sale, test drove the car with the guy, killed him and took off in the car.

THAT is just plain sick...wow! It is scary to think that people think so little of people's lives...

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:42 PM
Animals do have the ability to reason, just not to the extent of humans

Nice try though

So, let me make sure I've got this straight.
Animals can't reason like Humans do, but Humans and Animals are equal?
Gotcha...

Midnight_Vulture
08-07-2008, 12:43 PM
Liberals have already pussified this great country of ours enough.

The death penalty needs to stay. In fact they need to go back to firing squad or something more painful than lethal injection.

Seriously, strike some fear into these murderers. Dont give them a painless death.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:43 PM
So, let me make sure I've got this straight.
Animals can't reason like Humans do, but Humans and Animals are equal?
Gotcha...

I never said they are equal and I don't believe that but you are sitting here telling people "who are we to judge the value of a life" and in the same breath can say without doubt that animals lives are different than human lives.

So I am wondering where you get the ability to selectively judge life?

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:43 PM
THAT is just plain sick...wow! It is scary to think that people think so little of people's lives...

That is exactly why we need the death penalty. And more of it, IMO. I think a lot of these scumbags know that the punishment won't be as severe as death and so they don't think of the consequences as much.

Skip Towne
08-07-2008, 12:44 PM
The Justice System is flawed.
And innocent people have been put to death.
This can be argued both ways.

Tell that to Luther Plant. Oh, wait, you can't. Agofsky stomped him to death.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:44 PM
I never said they are equal and I don't believe that but you are sitting here telling people "who are we to judge the value of a life" and in the same breath can say without doubt that animals lives are different than human lives.

So I am wondering where you get the ability to selectively judge life?

Human life Albert. Human life.
You're not going to make an argument that Human life and Animal life are comparable. That's just a lame attempt at making me look like a hypocrite. It won't work. Because you've already conceded that Human life is much more sacred.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:44 PM
Liberals have already pussified this great country of ours enough.

The death penalty needs to stay. In fact they need to go back to firing squad or something more painful than lethal injection.

Seriously, strike some fear into these murderers. Dont give them a painless death.

Honestly, I'd love it if in this world they gave the victim's families a specified time alone in the room with the guilty party to do whatever they please

I know if someone did something to any of my family members I would love to be able to slowly and painfully torture them

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:45 PM
Liberals have already pussified this great country of ours enough.

The death penalty needs to stay. In fact they need to go back to firing squad or something more painful than lethal injection.

Seriously, strike some fear into these murderers. Dont give them a painless death.

I don't really like you from the bike thread, but your last 2 posts actually made me question my original impressions.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 12:45 PM
Human life Albert. Human life.
You're not going to make an argument that Human life and Animal life are comparable. That's just a lame attempt at making me look like a hypocrite. It won't work. Because you've already conceded that Human life is much more sacred.

Don't get mad because you are talking in circles and not making sense and people are calling you out on it, Nancy.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:46 PM
Liberals have already pussified this great country of ours enough.

The death penalty needs to stay. In fact they need to go back to firing squad or something more painful than lethal injection.

Seriously, strike some fear into these murderers. Dont give them a painless death.

Yeah, to Hell with compassion.
Let's get back to original American ideas like Slavery and Land-Stealing.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Don't get mad because you are talking in circles and not making sense and people are calling you out on it, Nancy.

I'm not talking in circles.
Human life is more valuable than Animal life.
You've already admitted as much.

This isn't even an argument.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 12:47 PM
I can see a good argument for abolishing the death penalty and if that ever happened I'd be ok with the decision. But having said that, as long as it exists this is the sort of case it exists for.
I'd like for Micjones to address this point.

The argument is not whether or not the death penalty should exist or not. There are certainly valid arguments for both sides of this issue and he isn't likely going to be swayed from his stance.

The real question is; given that The State of Missouri does employ the death penalty as a means of punishment, why should this guy's life be spared?

tmax63
08-07-2008, 12:47 PM
I am for using the death penalty sparingly but I am for the death penalty. I also see the death penalty as justice, not deterence. Without fully researching this case, he looks like a candidate to me. Our current justice system is so slanted to protecting the accused that the victims suffer a second time. I realize that innocent people have been executed but most cases cited are many years ago when investigation and evidence were much inferior to now. With today's technology (DNA etc) the # of innocent executions are basically nil. When there are questions or uncertainty, thats what life without parole is for. And to borrow a liberal arguement for many things and use itfor deterence, if it stops even 1 murder, wouldn't it be worth it. I also feel that life without parole is more cruel and inhumane than the DP.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:48 PM
I'd like for Micjones to address this point.

The argument is not whether or not the death penalty should exist or not. There are certainly valid arguments for both sides of this issue and he isn't likely going to be swayed from his stance.

The real question is; given that The State of Missouri does employ the death penalty as a means of punishment, why should this guy's life be spared?

I can't set aside my personal feelings about the death penalty simply because the State of Missouri employs it. I believe the death penalty should not exist. That tempers my entire argument.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:48 PM
Yeah, to Hell with compassion.
Let's get back to original American ideas like Slavery and Land-Stealing.

Punishing cold blooded murderers is the same as slavers or land stealers?

:shake::rolleyes::doh!:

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:49 PM
Punishing cold blooded murderers is the same as slavers or land stealers?

:shake::rolleyes::doh!:

I was addressing the idea that having compassion for Human life is somehow a bad thing for America.

plbrdude
08-07-2008, 12:51 PM
one would think that severe punishment for crime would serve as a deterrent. although i'm not a big fan of the death penalty i'm not opposed to it. but i do have a hard time understanding the defense of someone who callously and cruelly kills someone for whatever reason save self-defense.
i know this guy didn't pull the trigger, but from reading the court records it seems that he prolly would have if he had the gonads to. i feel for him and his family, but there has to be a time where people realize there are consequences for their actions.
maybe i look at things a little different, but if i think my life would be required of me if i'm involved in a crime that involves murder or i commit one, i think i'd make a few different choices.
i could be wrong again, but it seems the coddling of criminals and the lack of severe punishment partly fuels violent crime. most thugs prolly know they could plea to manslaughter or murder two and have a chance at parole in 7 yr.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 12:51 PM
I was addressing the idea that having compassion for Human life is somehow a bad thing for America.

Having compassion for Human life is not a bad thing for innocent human life.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 12:52 PM
I can't set aside my personal feelings about the death penalty simply because the State of Missouri employs it. I believe the death penalty should not exist. That tempers my entire argument.
Nice sidestep.

If you want to abolish the death penalty, then by all means, do whatever is in your power as a citizen of this state to do so.

The bottom line is, the death penalty is a form of punishment in Missouri. Does this guy fit the criteria or not? Yes or no.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Who said anything about slavery and land stealing? I agree with it, if they had something to fear do you really think that they wouldn't take a second thought about it.

Deberg_1990
08-07-2008, 12:54 PM
Lets put a face with the name. He looks like an upstanding young man to me:

Micjones
08-07-2008, 12:55 PM
Nice sidestep.

If you want to abolish the death penalty, then by all means, do whatever is in your power as a citizen of this state to do so.

The bottom line is, the death penalty is a form of punishment in Missouri. Does this guy fit the criteria or not? Yes or no.

Yes.

And I would argue that so do many other people who've run afoul of the law.
Now are you prepared to argue that the application of the death penalty is equitable?

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:56 PM
I never said they are equal and I don't believe that but you are sitting here telling people "who are we to judge the value of a life" and in the same breath can say without doubt that animals lives are different than human lives.

So I am wondering where you get the ability to selectively judge life?

Exactly what I was prying out.

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 12:57 PM
So, let me make sure I've got this straight.
Animals can't reason like Humans do, but Humans and Animals are equal?
Gotcha...

Humans can't digest grass or dive to 5,000 feet. Reasoning is just another trait, and it's egotistic to presume that it's a better trait. Cattle probably laugh at us for that.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 12:59 PM
I can't set aside my personal feelings about the death penalty simply because the State of Missouri employs it. I believe the death penalty should not exist. That tempers my entire argument.

When you run out of options in an argument. Throw slavery around. Works everytime.....If your name is Sharpton.

Midnight_Vulture
08-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Yeah, to Hell with compassion.
Let's get back to original American ideas like Slavery and Land-Stealing.

ROFL

Another wussy liberal trying to change the subject. Believe me I am all for having compassion for human life...just not that of murderers.

What if your wife or brother or any other family member was viciously murdered? You wouldnt be spouting off all that pussy liberal rhetoric.

MOhillbilly
08-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Tell that to Luther Plant. Oh, wait, you can't. Agofsky stomped him to death.
i remember it well.

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 12:59 PM
holy shit
3 pages
someone wants a hermgasm

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:01 PM
ROFL

Another wussy liberal trying to change the subject. Believe me I am all for having compassion for human life...just not that of murderers.

What if your wife or brother or any other family member was viciously murdered? You wouldnt be spouting off all that pussy liberal rhetoric.

Again, this is a lame tactic.

I would be no more in favor of the death penalty even if it personally touched my life.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 01:01 PM
This place is like a black hole.......

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 01:01 PM
This place is like a black hole.......

Who are you to judge what this forum is like, we all have our flaws

Rain Man
08-07-2008, 01:01 PM
How about slavery instead of the death penalty? Give him to the family of the victim.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:02 PM
Honest question answer this HONESTLY!

If a guy broke into your home and in the malee killed your wife/daughter, and then was caught by the cops and sentenced. What would you hope that sentence turned out to be?

Don't mistake these comments we are not blood thirty, I just know how I would feel. I would not want him to be alive anymore.

God judges, execution speeds up the meeting.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:03 PM
ROFL

Another wussy liberal trying to change the subject. Believe me I am all for having compassion for human life...just not that of murderers.

What if your wife or brother or any other family member was viciously murdered? You wouldnt be spouting off all that pussy liberal rhetoric.

Beat me to it.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 01:03 PM
If a guy broke into your home and in the malee killed your wife/daughter, and then was caught by the cops and sentenced. What would you hope that sentence turned out to be?

I think it's pretty obvious that he would want him to remain alive in prison with the possibility of new evidence coming to light that one day may set him free

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 01:03 PM
Yes.

And I would argue that so do many other people who've run afoul of the law.
Now are you prepared to argue that the application of the death penalty is equitable?
Thanks for being honest.

I'm really torn on capital punishment. On one hand, I think it should be used as a deterrent to the most heinous of crimes. But we have to be 100%, absolutely sure that the accused is guilty of the crime. The state that our judicial system is in today makes me suspicious that it is possible at times. So I'm wavering a little, but in principle I still support it.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:04 PM
Honest question answer this HONESTLY!

If a guy broke into your home and in the malee killed your wife/daughter, and then was caught by the cops and sentenced. What would you hope that sentence turned out to be?

Don't mistake these comments we are not blood thirty, I just know how I would feel. I would not want him to be alive anymore.

God judges, execution speeds up the meeting.

It wouldn't change my respect for human life.
I get the sentimentality card. You want to play on my emotions.
But even personal tragedy doesn't change how sacred life is for me.

ChiefsFan4Life
08-07-2008, 01:04 PM
It wouldn't change my respect for human life.
I get the sentimentality card. You want to play on my emotions.
But even personal tragedy doesn't change how sacred life is for me.

You didn't answer the question, surprise surprise

What would you want his sentence to be

Fairplay
08-07-2008, 01:04 PM
How about slavery instead of the death penalty? Give him to the family of the victim.



I want to be the boss man with a whip.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:04 PM
How about slavery instead of the death penalty? Give him to the family of the victim.

:toast:

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:05 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that he would want him to remain alive in prison with the possibility of new evidence coming to light that one day may set him free

You're right. It'd be fair for me to set a match to the Constitution because of my own personal tragedy.

Let's deny the man the opportunity to due process because he killed one of my family members.

Uncle_Ted
08-07-2008, 01:06 PM
I generally oppose the death penalty, but if it's going to be applied it should not IMO be applied to a "mere" accomplice. Giving the death penalty in such a case only encourages all of a future killer's accomplices to in turn murder every possible witness they come across (since if they are caught they are all getting the needle anyway, regardless of which one of them is the actual killer).

That said, I know nothing about the case except what was in the original post, so I'd be shocked if the inmate is as "innocent" as he claims.

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 01:06 PM
It wouldn't change my respect for human life.
I get the sentimentality card. You want to play on my emotions.
But even personal tragedy doesn't change how sacred life is for me.

Whose life. The life of the guy who was dumped in the woods, or the shit bags who put him there.

I know, I know, both. **** that, I have more respect for a dogs life than a damned body dumper.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:07 PM
You didn't answer the question, surprise surprise

What would you want his sentence to be

I WOULDN'T want it to be the death penalty.

Life in prison maybe.
30 years. Depends on the circumstances and details of the case.
But surely I can give a reasonable sentence with just a hypothetical situation to work from. Boy I tell ya...

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:08 PM
I have complete respect for human life, which is why is someone takes it, I believe their lives should be taken also.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:08 PM
I generally oppose the death penalty, but if it's going to be applied it should not IMO be applied to a "mere" accomplice. Giving the death penalty in such a case only encourages all of a future killer's accomplices to in turn murder every possible witness they come across (since if they are caught they are all getting the needle anyway, regardless of which one of them is the actual killer).

That said, I know nothing about the case except what was in the original post, so I'd be shocked if the inmate is as "innocent" as he claims.

Whether or not the death penalty is equitable considering the fact that he was only an accomplice hasn't even been argued yet. I would venture to guess that cases involving accomplices being sentenced to death are fairly rare.

Again, this goes to my argument about the death penalty being equitable in practice.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:10 PM
I have complete respect for human life, which is why is someone takes it, I believe their lives should be taken also.

Fair enough.

How then should that be applied? The same across the board?
Should negligence that leads to accidental death be punishable by the death penalty?

Redrum_69
08-07-2008, 01:10 PM
How the hell did we go from the death penalty...to slavery...

and now

in two hours

Chad Pennington will be editor for WPI

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:11 PM
I WOULDN'T want it to be the death penalty.

Life in prison maybe.
30 years. Depends on the circumstances and details of the case.
But surely I can give a reasonable sentence with just a hypothetical situation to work from. Boy I tell ya...

Yes, cause I would feel so much better having the guy that murdered my family member alive and well and using my tax dollars to eat, sleep, and take a sh*t....boy I tell ya.

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 01:11 PM
Let's deny the man the opportunity to due process because he killed one of my family members.

Was the man in question denied due process? How are you defining this?

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:13 PM
I am talking about cold blood murder.

You are talking about apples and oranges. You can not compare accidental death with this situation.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Yes, cause I would feel so much better having the guy that murdered my family member alive and well and using my tax dollars to eat, sleep, and take a sh*t....boy I tell ya.

Actually the death penalty proves to be more expensive than life-in-prison sentences. Try again...

little jacob
08-07-2008, 01:14 PM
i don't know him really well but i know someone on death row in another state. we were friends at one time and i have written him and he replies. at the time of his crime i hadn't talked to him in a few years. so i dont know much about that. i dont ask about it.

i can't believe he did what he did, but he knows what the price was on his deed and i think in a way he is looking forward to paying off the balance. i dont like what is coming but he deserves it. every day since that day has been found money for him. he has really changed, and i think he is a decent man today. but does he deserve mercy? i dont think he does. he has to settle up with the state for what he's done, and he has to submit justice to the people he hurt.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:14 PM
I am talking about cold blood murder.

You are talking about apples and oranges. You can not compare accidental death with this situation.

So the death penalty should only be applied to people who kill in cold blood?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that rule this guy out?
I thought he didn't do the killings himself?

beach tribe
08-07-2008, 01:15 PM
Whether or not the death penalty is equitable considering the fact that he was only an accomplice hasn't even been argued yet. I would venture to guess that cases involving accomplices being sentenced to death are fairly rare.

Again, this goes to my argument about the death penalty being equitable in practice.

If they hadn't proceeded to kill MORE people he would not have gotten the DP.

Frazod
08-07-2008, 01:16 PM
It wouldn't change my respect for human life.
I get the sentimentality card. You want to play on my emotions.
But even personal tragedy doesn't change how sacred life is for me.

You really think you can predict how you'd react standing over the bloody, violated corpse of a loved one? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Now, if you have had a loved one killed tragically, and you stood over this person's body and thought, "darn, that's unfortunate, the guy who did this should probably get locked up for a couple of years," then I'll believe your statement. If not, you are full of shit, because our reactions to sudden, horrible events cannot be predicted.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:17 PM
If they hadn't proceeded to kill MORE people he would not have gotten the DP.

Either way... The Supreme Court limits the application of the death penalty in cases like these. Where the victim fell at the hands of another person altogether.

Being put to death for simply being an accomplice is rare.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:18 PM
You really think you can predict how you'd react standing over the bloody, violated corpse of a loved one? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Absolutely not, but I don't think I'd be the most rational, fair person in that event either. And the law is not subject to my emotions.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:20 PM
So the death penalty should only be applied to people who kill in cold blood?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that rule this guy out?
I thought he didn't do the killings himself?

Were these deaths accidental? No, they were not. I never said that the DP should ONLY be applied to those who killed in cold blood.

So that makes it ok, that he didn't kill them but watched and did nothing, then ran across the country? and killed more people?

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 01:23 PM
You really think you can predict how you'd react standing over the bloody, violated corpse of a loved one? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Now, if you have had a loved one killed tragically, and you stood over this person's body and thought, "darn, that's unfortunate, the guy who did this should probably get locked up for a couple of years," then I'll believe your statement. If not, you are full of shit, because our reactions to sudden, horrible events cannot be predicted.
To be fair, neither would you. Although, I feel I can make a pretty good "educated" guess. :D

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:24 PM
Were these deaths accidental? No, they were not. I never said that the DP should ONLY be applied to those who killed in cold blood.

So that makes it ok, that he didn't kill them but watched and did nothing, then ran across the country? and killed more people?

Come on Philly... I've already said that the man should spend the rest of his life in prison. Why do you keep pretending that I'm arguing for him to be set free?

little jacob
08-07-2008, 01:26 PM
Come on Philly... I've already said that the man should spend the rest of his life in prison. Why do you keep pretending that I'm arguing for him to be set free?

you think he should get a break for some reason when legally he is getting what is coming to him IMO.

he doesnt deserve a break any more than he deserves to be set free

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:27 PM
you think he should get a break for some reason when legally he is getting what is coming to him IMO.

he doesnt deserve a break any more than he deserves to be set free

You consider spending life in prison a break?
It'd be simpler to just be put to death.
Serving a life sentence would be much more difficult.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:27 PM
That is true, I appreciate your stance. I just believe differently. I know you don't want him to be set free, I guess I would just want a harsher sentence. I don't think that people like him, should have the privlege of life.

Not that he would enjoy it...

Frazod
08-07-2008, 01:27 PM
My feelings on capital punishment are this:

Human life is neither precious, nor sacred, nor automatically worthy and valued. Human life is whatever the human makes of it. And if that human chooses to spend his life murdering, raping and otherwise f#cking with his fellow human beings, then his life isn't worth jack shit. We are not an endangered species, and there is no logical reason to waste resources on some irredeemable scumbag who will never contribute anything to society except pain and grief. While I have no problem with retribution and justice, I think the larger issue is simply efficient pest control.

As a society, we were much better off when capital punishment was liberally, and publicly, applied. Our current society of endless encarceration and legal wrangling is a long, pathetic exercise in failure.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:28 PM
That is true, I appreciate your stance. I just believe differently. I know you don't want him to be set free, I guess I would just want a harsher sentence. I don't think that people like him, should have the privlege of life.

Not that he would enjoy it...

Serving a life sentence is much more harsh than simply being put to death.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:28 PM
hence me saying...

Not that he would enjoy it.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:29 PM
Human life is neither precious, nor sacred, nor automatically worthy and valued.

Do you have children?

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 01:29 PM
Serving a life sentence is much more harsh than simply being put to death.
Are you sure? Do you believe in Heaven and Hell?

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:30 PM
really? do you know how many people are going to jump all over you for that one??

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:30 PM
hence me saying...

Not that he would enjoy it.

So certainly the fact that I prefer he deal with the harsher sentence means that I'm not soft on accomplices to murder?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Are you sure? Do you believe in Heaven and Hell?

I believe in both.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Are you sure? Do you believe in Heaven and Hell?

:clap: :toast:

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Mic, you have referred to "due process" several times. How are you defining this and do you believe this person was denied due process?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:31 PM
:clap: :toast:

I'm waiting for the point to be made gentlemen.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 01:32 PM
I believe in both.
Then perhaps death is not the easy way out. Either way, he's going to eventually die, but maybe he'd like to delay "judgment day" for a few years?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:33 PM
Mic, you have referred to "due process" several times. How are you defining this and do you believe this person was denied due process?

He received a fair trial and his day in court.
I simply meant the death penalty would forever cutoff access to new evidence or law that might mitigate his sentence or set it aside altogether.

Frazod
08-07-2008, 01:33 PM
Do you have children?

No. Closest thing I have is a Goddaughter. But what does that have to do with anything?

DeezNutz
08-07-2008, 01:34 PM
He received a fair trial and his day in court.
I simply meant the death penalty would forever cutoff access to new evidence or law that might mitigate his sentence or set it aside altogether.

Ok. Thanks.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:34 PM
Then perhaps death is not the easy way out. Either way, he's going to eventually die, but maybe he'd like to delay "judgment day" for a few years?

Perhaps, but it's not as though he wouldn't have time to make penance and peace with God even after being sentenced to death.

I'm not talking about his fate in the afterlife.
I'm talking about simply dealing with the human judgment he'd be faced with.
And I think we'd agree that being put to sleep is easier than rotting in prison for the rest of his life.

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:36 PM
No. Closest thing I have is a Goddaughter. But what does that have to do with anything?

I figured as much.

I think your view might be different with children of your own.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 01:36 PM
And I think we'd agree that being put to sleep is easier than rotting in prison for the rest of his life.
For some, maybe.

Dartgod
08-07-2008, 01:36 PM
I'm waiting for the point to be made gentlemen.
What point?

MOhillbilly
08-07-2008, 01:38 PM
You really think you can predict how you'd react standing over the bloody, violated corpse of a loved one? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Now, if you have had a loved one killed tragically, and you stood over this person's body and thought, "darn, that's unfortunate, the guy who did this should probably get locked up for a couple of years," then I'll believe your statement. If not, you are full of shit, because our reactions to sudden, horrible events cannot be predicted.
them Amish did it when there kids got wiped out by that madman.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:39 PM
I figured as much.

I think your view might be different with children of your own.

How so? What if this man had killed one of your children?

I believe YOUR view might be different.

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:40 PM
If anything the fact that I have children (or anyone for that matter), would only strengthen my belief.

Lzen
08-07-2008, 01:40 PM
This place is like a black hole.......

Racist!!

Micjones
08-07-2008, 01:49 PM
How so? What if this man had killed one of your children?

I believe YOUR view might be different.

Philly if anyone ever laid a finger on my son I would likely want to go out and put a bullet in that person's head. That hardly makes that action fair or the right thing to do according to the law. Or even morally for that matter.

You keep playing that card... And it isn't helping your argument.

Frazod
08-07-2008, 01:49 PM
I figured as much.

I think your view might be different with children of your own.

You are no more qualified to dole out advice on how I might react to having children than you are to offer predictions of reaction to unknown events. If anything, I would think raising a child in this world of complete and utter shit would only intensify my feelings. I certainly worry about the world my 17 year old Goddaughter (who, coincidently, was molested at age 14 by the father of one of her friends) is heading into.

Ask me how I feel about child molestors. Especially those who get off with a slap on the wrist because they're well-connected.

Frazod
08-07-2008, 01:51 PM
them Amish did it when there kids got wiped out by that madman.

That they did. They are amazing people. They are also pathetic sheep completely dependent upon the charity of others.

Midnight_Vulture
08-07-2008, 01:56 PM
Libs like Micjones make me sick to my stomach.

Yeah, lets have soooo much compassion for these murdering scumbags. Nevermind they killed innocent lives. Lets give them a nice cell where they can just live out the rest of their important lives.

Riiiiight.

Oh to the thread starter, I hope he burns in hell. Cheers!

PhillyChiefFan
08-07-2008, 01:57 PM
You are no more qualified to dole out advice on how I might react to having children than you are to offer predictions of reaction to unknown events. If anything, I would think raising a child in this world of complete and utter shit would only intensify my feelings. I certainly worry about the world my 17 year old Goddaughter (who, coincidently, was molested at age 14 by the father of one of her friends) is heading into.

Ask me how I feel about child molestors. Especially those who get off with a slap on the wrist because they're well-connected.

I am sorry about your Goddaughter. That is terrible. What, if you don't mind, did happen, to him? Anything?!?!

Buehler445
08-07-2008, 01:57 PM
Hey Fraz, how do you feel about child molestors? Especially ones that get a slap on the hands because they are well connected? Posted via Mobile Device

Lzen
08-07-2008, 01:58 PM
I figured as much.

I think your view might be different with children of your own.

That's surprising. I have 3 children and my view on this is very similar to frazod's. So, I take it that you have children. Do you believe in the belt? Or do you just smile and say "that was a bad thing you did, little Johnny....please don't do it again"?

Micjones
08-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Libs like Micjones make me sick to my stomach.

And people who think they own a monopoly on what America is and should be make me sick at mine.

Yeah, lets have soooo much compassion for these murdering scumbags. Nevermind they killed innocent lives. Lets give them a nice cell where they can just live out the rest of their important lives.


I could've sworn the man in question was only an accomplice.