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FAX
08-19-2008, 01:48 PM
Defenses can win games. Defenses can intimidate and instill fear and dread in an enemy offense. Defenses can take the ball away, score a touchdown, rub a quarterback's nose in the dirt, and moon the opposing coach all while signing autographs for hot chicks on the sideline.

Anyhow, I was reading the current thread on the main page that includes Herm's comments regarding the "speed" of our defense, and I start wondering ... would I rather have a defense known for "speed" or one that's known for "hard hitting"? So, I decided to start this thread which I like to call, "Talkin' Defense Here, Baby" because that thread title sounds kinda rough and tumble-like.

I'm going to attempt to turn this into a poll, so we'll see how that works. In the meantime, have a nice day.

FAX

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.

seclark
08-19-2008, 01:49 PM
either one's fine as long as they can TACKLE.
sec

crazycoffey
08-19-2008, 01:50 PM
combo of both please....

Pestilence
08-19-2008, 01:51 PM
Knock their heads off.

I want a defense that is going to scare the shit out of the offense before they even get on the field.

FAX
08-19-2008, 01:52 PM
Those aren't options available on this particular poll, Mr. CrazyCoffey. This particular poll has two choices: Speed or Knocking Heads Off. That's it.

If you're having trouble deciding, just select the option that most closely coincides with your worldview.

FAX

Molitoth
08-19-2008, 01:52 PM
Gaz ftw.

RibKing67
08-19-2008, 01:55 PM
Knock their heads off.

I want a defense that is going to scare the shit out of the offense before they even get on the field.

I agree...:$2500:

Micjones
08-19-2008, 02:03 PM
One that'll "knock heads off".
That's a gritty, physical, hard-nosed defense that will intimidate offenses.

A defense can be plenty fast...and soft.

StcChief
08-19-2008, 02:05 PM
Gaz....smart, some of both... but just TACKLE

Radar Chief
08-19-2008, 02:07 PM
either one's fine as long as they can TACKLE.
sec

What he said.

kregger
08-19-2008, 02:08 PM
I want heads. I remember Kawika running around in the opponents backfield and never making tackles. So speed will only get you to where you should be, it does not guarantee that you will smash heads once you get there.

CoMoChief
08-19-2008, 02:11 PM
Tackle tackle tackle. This team has been dreadful in tackling the last 7-8 years.

FAX
08-19-2008, 02:11 PM
One that'll "knock heads off".
That's a gritty, physical, hard-nosed defense that will intimidate offenses.

A defense can be plenty fast...and soft.

See, that's what I think, too, Mr. Micjones. Merely getting to a particular spot on the field faster than everybody else means very little if you're not going to do significant damage once you arrive. And, we've obviously had a tackling problem for some time.

To me, when Herm says he wanted to build a defense with "speed", that's all well and good. In the NFL, however, (and with the exception of a few standout players) there's not a tremendous difference in football "speed" by position across the league. That said, it seems to me that the culture one would want to create is one in which enemy offenses would really prefer not to take the field because of the extreme pain involved. If "speed" helps us accomplish that goal, all well and good. I just want our defense to strike incomprehensible fear into the hearts of guys like Brady and Manning and their respective casts.

FAX

HypnotizedMonkey
08-19-2008, 02:13 PM
When you knock their heads off, the ball comes out a lot of the time.. so I'll take some of that. But a good defense will be well-rounded. I like my defense like I like my women.. big up front, sturdy in the middle, and not afraid to go after the balls.

Nzoner
08-19-2008, 02:17 PM
I want a defense with a bad ass like this and he's not afraid to let the other team know it verbally as well as physically during the game.

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m7Z7E4c-684&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

alpha_omega
08-19-2008, 02:19 PM
I will take "Knocking" Mr. Fax. Knocking would seem to come with intimidation. Speed might be just a touch overrated IMO. The offense might have speed too...and they already know where they are going.

And yes....tackling must be better that in recent memory.

MOhillbilly
08-19-2008, 02:20 PM
speed.


dont take my word for it though as i asked this same question once.

Chiefnj2
08-19-2008, 02:22 PM
last August ESPN:

ALBANY, N.Y. -- The hitting, the tackling, the squat thrust, the Oklahoma drill and the full pads are largely things of the past. The NFL might be a full-contact sport, but you wouldn't know it from watching training camp.


New York Giants coach Tom Coughlin might be the last of a generation of old-school coaches, because he still believes football is more of a contact sport than a thinking man's game. Coughlin likes the old-fashioned two-a-days and the full pads, and remembers when players were lined up against each other one-on-one to see who was tougher.


Even Coughlin, though, has embraced the so-called new way of life in the NFL -- the one in which players run around in shorts, tackling is off-limits and plays often take eight or nine seconds to complete because coaches are not reluctant to start and stop them midway through.


Even the hard-nosed Tom Coughlin sees the logic in limiting full-contact practice drills.

Salary cap and injury concerns have made training camps a lot less rigorous than they once were. At a recent Giants camp practice, Eli Manning led the offense in the 11-on-11 drill. Manning, however, was not allowed to be touched, and if a receiver caught the ball, he could not be tackled. Hitting was off-limits, because the Giants -- like most teams -- want to protect their starting quarterback.


When Manning overthrew Amani Toomer and Sam Madison intercepted his pass, the whistles blew immediately. Forget about having receivers practice tackling in the event that there is an interception.


When the Giants practiced their running plays with Brandon Jacobs or Reuben Droughns, the officials blew the whistle before Giants defensive linemen Osi Umenyiora, Mathias Kiwanuka or Barry Cofield had the opportunity to make the tackle.


"Having been with the Giants for three years, this training camp is much different than the previous two," Giants defensive end Justin Tuck said. "There is a lot less hitting and a lot less full-contact practices than there used to be."


The idea of not wearing players out seems to be taking hold throughout the NFL. A visit to Jets training camp provided more proof. After quarterback Chad Pennington completed a pass in the two-minute drill, the play was stopped. The receiver was barely touched.


Today's players might not remember the old-school training camp, but they might understand how training camp has changed based on their college experience. The only physical drill that one generally sees in most training camps is the "thud drill," where defensive backs wrap up a running back but don't actually make the tackle. Except for a few teams that do full-contact scrimmages, hitting is almost off-limits.


Second-year Giants tight end Charles Davis remembers what he referred to as the "Purdue Drill" from his days as a Boilermaker. Three offensive linemen would line up against three defensive linemen, and there would be one running back and one safety.


"It was a grueling drill," Davis said. "College coaches are often new, so they want to demonstrate their authority and so there are a lot of drills that you see in college that you don't see in the NFL."



The old school
Former Dallas Cowboys linebacker Thomas Henderson still remembers training camp because of how much he hated it. He uses "brutal" to describe the camps run by Tom Landry.

The Cowboys often practiced twice a day for two hours in full pads. Henderson, who played with Dallas from 1975-80, particularly remembers the fumble drill, the one in which defensive players circled around the ball for a minute on the ground. There was also the squat-thrust drill, in which players would run in place, drop to the ground when the whistle blew, and then get back up.


"The old-school training camps were designed to separate the men from the boys," Henderson said.


For Henderson, training camp was almost tougher than the game. Players would finish training camp with bruises, sprains and fatigue. Landry wanted to know if his players were game-ready. Tackling was something that was practiced over and over again.


Henderson remembers tackling drills in which he was blocked by a fullback and had to tackle the running back. Henderson often needed to line up against Cowboys offensive linemen, get around the guard or tackle, and tackle the running back while his teammates would scream, "Come on Thomas, get him."


Henderson admitted that he needed to hit with his head because of weak shoulders, which eventually led to a broken neck in his final season with the Miami Dolphins.


Added Henderson: "As much as I hated training camp, it made me ready to play four quarters of football during the season. By the time they picked those 11 players on offense and 11 players on defense, they would have hit the ground 2,000 times."


Landry would also test rookies when they arrived in camp to see if they could withstand a goal-line drill. When Henderson survived Landry's goal-line stand, he knew he would be on the goal-line team. Henderson argues that today's players might be in great physical shape, but are soft when it comes to tackling.


Training camp has indeed become milder through the years. Former Buffalo Bills star receiver Andre Reed, ex-NFL quarterback Ron Jaworski and other former players attribute the change to the more cerebral approach of the late Bill Walsh. Football, after all, in the image of Walsh has become more of a thinking man's game. Instead of figuring out who was the toughest player, the challenge became learning the formations associated with the West Coast offense. Timing was critical as quarterbacks needed to release the ball at a precise moment or risk getting crushed by the defender. More time in the film room was needed, which inevitably meant less time on the field.


Walsh's tactics soon spread by word of mouth. It also didn't hurt that many of Walsh's assistants became head coaches, including Mike Holmgren, Dennis Green, Mike Shanahan and George Seifert. Walsh's coaching tree includes more than 20 current or former NFL coaches, and most of them adopted the techniques of their former boss.



The new school
Reed remembers when coaches began to develop balance between hitting and conditioning in the 1980s. If the Bills went full pads in the morning, they would not go full pads in the afternoon. They also did not practice more than two consecutive days in full pads. The point was to break up the monotony of training camp. Reed, though, admits he is disappointed in what he sees in today's training camps.

"It should not be a country club atmosphere in training camp," Reed said. "There needs to be hitting, tackling, and players need to be challenged."


Reed notes that one of the bigger questions in any training camp is whether rookies master the playbook, often 800 pages.

These days, players are in shorts and t-shirts more than shoulder pads and helmets.

"I have seen a lot of guys who have tremendous talent, but can't grasp what is happening on the field," he said.

Reed admits that players in the 1980s were unaware of the risks associated with working too hard. Players were often in full pads running through drills in humid conditions. Medical knowledge about heat stroke has improved over the course of time and subsequently the league has become more cautious about the health of its players.


The issue came to a head in 2001, when Minnesota Vikings tackle Korey Stringer died of heat stroke. Many players said Stringer's death changed training camp regimens. The NFL does not have rules on how many two-a-days a team can have or the length of practice, but does provide weather guidelines on when teams should and should not practice.


"We are monitored so closely now," Tuck said. "If there is anything that looks strange, our trainers will pull us off the practice field immediately."


And so training camp is a shadow of what it once was. Players used to report after July 4 and play six preseason games. (Players today report in late July.) It was not uncommon for players to have offseason jobs, so training camp was a time for players to get themselves in shape. Football, however, has become a year-round game, as players often work out at team facilities during the offseason. The organized team activity drills in the spring give players an additional chance to learn plays.


The salary cap has also made coaches and general managers more protective of their best players because a bad investment can hurt a team's salary cap for years to come. Teams used to start training camp with 115 players as opposed to the 95 on today's rosters. The increased number of players allowed teams to have more contact. Teams could run the Oklahoma drill, which pits two players against each other in a confined space. Former players such as Reed and Eddie George, however, argue that the lack of hitting could lead to more preseason injuries because players are not practicing at game speed.



Impact on the game
Even with all the precautions coaches take today to protect their players, many still suffer major injuries in the preseason. In a game between the Baltimore Ravens and Giants on Sunday, New York safety Will Demps dislocated his elbow and Madison pulled a hamstring. Redskins QB Jason Campbell bruised his knee in a preseason game and Washington middle linebacker Marcus Washington dislocated his left elbow.

There are other drawbacks to the modern-day training camp. Missed tackles are on the rise, as defensive players often try to arm tackle instead of using proper technique. The NFL does not keep statistics on missed tackles, but the amount of them passes the eyeball test.


"It is hard to be good at something that you don't practice," Kiwanuka said. "They expect us to suddenly go out there and make tackles in games even though it is something that we don't practice."


Former Packers general manager Ron Wolf agrees.


"It is absurd what is going on today," Wolf said. "I believe there is a tremendous justification for two-a-day practices. That is when you get in physical shape. To compare it to baseball, it is like asking a player to run 45 feet instead of 90 feet on a ground ball. It is almost like we are preparing them to get ready for 162 games instead of 40."


As an example, many teams have given up on the nine-on-seven drill. The drill, which consists of nine offensive players and seven defensive players, is one of the most challenging in training camp. The running back is ultimately matched up with the two safeties while six linemen are blocking five defensive linemen. George, who starred for the Titans in the 1990s, wanted that drill to be as difficult as possible, so the game would almost be easier than practice.


"There is a lot of poor tackling. Throughout the league, a lot of players are not football-ready, a lot of players are not in a hitting mode, and you can see that," George said. "A lot of defensive players try to make arm tackles and a lot of running backs are not running through their runs because they are not used to getting hit. It is like anything else -- if you don't get repetitions in something, how can you expect to be good at it?"

Micjones
08-19-2008, 02:23 PM
See, that's what I think, too, Mr. Micjones. Merely getting to a particular spot on the field faster than everybody else means very little if you're not going to do significant damage once you arrive. And, we've obviously had a tackling problem for some time.

To me, when Herm says he wanted to build a defense with "speed", that's all well and good. In the NFL, however, (and with the exception of a few standout players) there's not a tremendous difference in football "speed" by position across the league. That said, it seems to me that the culture one would want to create is one in which enemy offenses would really prefer not to take the field because of the extreme pain involved. If "speed" helps us accomplish that goal, all well and good. I just want our defense to strike incomprehensible fear into the hearts of guys like Brady and Manning and their respective casts.

FAX

It would seem to me that great defenses are built with a certain attitude and killer instinct. That's what I'd like to see instilled in these defensive players more than anything. When I listen to Deacon Jones talk about his playing days... He always talks about how he delighted in inflicting pain on the opposing team. We need to be tough and physical. If we're fast too...so be it.

RedThat
08-19-2008, 02:26 PM
I want a defense that can do it all.

Just a complete defense. A great defense.

I want a defense that tough, fearless, smart, well disciplined, has speed.

The defense has to be quick, tackle well, get to the QB, penetrate and blow up plays in the backfield, coverages has to be good all those things. And of course FORCE turnovers giving your team a chance to win the game!

Nzoner
08-19-2008, 02:27 PM
....

Bunch of Pvssys


The idea of not wearing players out seems to be taking hold throughout the NFL

MOhillbilly
08-19-2008, 02:31 PM
part of the reason jummy johnson was a success in the nfl was that he knew defensive speed disrupted most offensive schemes.
ive heard my uncle say the same type things in the past. though i know he would like a combination of fleet of foot with sloberknocking hits.

Ari Chi3fs
08-19-2008, 02:31 PM
Gaz needs to learn to wrap up when he tackles.

Micjones
08-19-2008, 02:32 PM
I want a defense that can do it all.

Just a complete defense. A great defense.

I want a defense that tough, fearless, smart, well disciplined, has speed.

The defense has to be quick, tackle well, get to the QB, penetrate and blow up plays in the backfield, coverages has to be good all those things. And of course FORCE turnovers giving your team a chance to win the game!

Guess you want world peace too eh?

RedThat
08-19-2008, 02:32 PM
It would seem to me that great defenses are built with a certain attitude and killer instinct. That's what I'd like to see instilled in these defensive players more than anything. When I listen to Deacon Jones talk about his playing days... He always talks about how he delighted in inflicting pain on the opposing team. We need to be tough and physical. If we're fast too...so be it.

That right. We need some sick son of a guns on this team!

Bury him to the ground talk trash to his face. Tell that guy you're gonna kill him...Tear his head off, and smother him to the ground..Make sure his jersey is dirty...I Dont wanna even see the team colour of their jersey when we play them. I want their jerseys to be brown! Our defensive players need to know that Football ain't football it is war!

This team needs Butkus, or even the Lamberts and the curtis mentalilty. Get the opposition scared I think that makes a difference.

Rain Man
08-19-2008, 02:33 PM
Guess you want world peace too eh?

Yeah, but it's fourth, after offense, defense, and special teams.

Micjones
08-19-2008, 02:34 PM
That right. We need some sick son of a guns on this team!

Bury him to the ground talk trash to his face. Tell that guy you're gonna kill him...Tear his head off, and smother him to the ground..Make sure his jersey is dirty...I Dont wanna even see the team colour of their jersey when we play them. I want their jerseys to be brown! Our defensive players need to know that Football ain't football it is war!

This team needs Butkus, or even the Lamberts and the curtis mentalilty. Get the opposition scared I think that makes a difference.

Absolutely.
Trouble is... I'm concerned our Safeties might be the only players on this team with that mentality.

Micjones
08-19-2008, 02:35 PM
Yeah, but it's fourth, after offense, defense, and special teams.

ROFL

beach tribe
08-19-2008, 02:43 PM
They usually go hand in hand.

beach tribe
08-19-2008, 02:46 PM
When you knock their heads off, the ball comes out a lot of the time.. so I'll take some of that. But a good defense will be well-rounded. I like my defense like I like my women.. big up front, sturdy in the middle, and not afraid to go after the balls.

Very nice.

Rain Man
08-19-2008, 02:47 PM
That clip of Lawrence Taylor overlooks my favorite play of his. I don't remember the opponent, but the quarterback was rolling out (away from LT, of course) and had a running back protecting him. Taylor was chasing him down, and as the running back started to block him, Taylor threw him into the quarterback, knocking the quarterback down. It was one of those plays that makes you laugh out loud.

Taylor was a scary dude, though. Probably the guy I'd least want to encounter in an angry state.

MOhillbilly
08-19-2008, 03:02 PM
That clip of Lawrence Taylor overlooks my favorite play of his. I don't remember the opponent, but the quarterback was rolling out (away from LT, of course) and had a running back protecting him. Taylor was chasing him down, and as the running back started to block him, Taylor threw him into the quarterback, knocking the quarterback down. It was one of those plays that makes you laugh out loud.

Taylor was a scary dude, though. Probably the guy I'd least want to encounter in an angry state.
owzers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH8SZOqc6Pk

MOhillbilly
08-19-2008, 03:04 PM
bringin the pain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9lNUBFXUrw&feature=related

RedThat
08-19-2008, 03:06 PM
Absolutely.
Trouble is... I'm concerned our Safeties might be the only players on this team with that mentality.

I beg to differ. There are guys on this team that have the swagger.

Now their level of toughness doesn't equate to the toughness of a Butkus, or Lambert. Absolutely not. But their are guys on this team that can be tough and are no spring chickens.

I really think a guy like Flowers can be one of those guys. I watched some film of him at VT. The guy ain't afraid to lay one and is physical, or shy to come in and support. Surtain is done! Im tellin not only you but a lot of the folks on here, that his legs are on his last. He doesnt play with the swagger or passion that he used to. probably cause of his age. But his speed is going down as well.

Dorsey is a warrior. You want to talk tough. he played in LSU with casts. Now he isn't playing I'll bet because Herm is being careful he doesn't further injure himself.

McBride and Tyler can have the mean streaks. I have seen it in them before. They are capable.

RedThat
08-19-2008, 03:08 PM
Im predicting this team will need a MLBer. Pat Thomas doesn't cut it for me. Nothing more then a depth guy. And Edwards is 35. If their is one area Im concerned on the defense, it's the LBers.

RedThat
08-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Now if this team had a butt kicking tough son of a gun of a MLBer...That would take this defense to greatness, and set the mentality of the team to a whole new level of toughness.

beach tribe
08-19-2008, 03:12 PM
If we land a killer MLB, and a speed rushing end next off-season, along with the maturation of the guys we have, we could be close to a top 5 D. Tyler will be in his 3rd yr, and I think he's gonna be a force at that point with Dorsey penetrating.

Chiefnj2
08-19-2008, 03:14 PM
If there is no full contact tackling to the ground in practice it is tough to expect them to be able to turn it on and execute come game day.

That's also probably why you see a lot of guys that miss the QB. It's ingrained in your head from May - August - do not touch or go near the QB no matter what.

Simply Red
08-19-2008, 03:29 PM
Gaz on Grape - NOS.

Baby Lee
08-19-2008, 03:30 PM
HS Physics, if two things have the same mass, the one moving FASTER packs more of a whallop.

Is whallop still the international standard measure?

Micjones
08-19-2008, 03:37 PM
I beg to differ. There are guys on this team that have the swagger.

Now their level of toughness doesn't equate to the toughness of a Butkus, or Lambert. Absolutely not. But their are guys on this team that can be tough and are no spring chickens.

I really think a guy like Flowers can be one of those guys. I watched some film of him at VT. The guy ain't afraid to lay one and is physical, or shy to come in and support. Surtain is done! Im tellin not only you but a lot of the folks on here, that his legs are on his last. He doesnt play with the swagger or passion that he used to. probably cause of his age. But his speed is going down as well.

Dorsey is a warrior. You want to talk tough. he played in LSU with casts. Now he isn't playing I'll bet because Herm is being careful he doesn't further injure himself.

McBride and Tyler can have the mean streaks. I have seen it in them before. They are capable.

I'm only looking at players who've played NFL downs.
I believe Flowers and Dorsey can bring swagger to this defense.
We just haven't seen it yet.

Currently we only see that out of Page and Pollard.
And Derrick Johnson.

Micjones
08-19-2008, 03:38 PM
Now if this team had a butt kicking tough son of a gun of a MLBer...That would take this defense to greatness, and set the mentality of the team to a whole new level of toughness.

Agreed.

I would've loved to see Kershaw in that role.
That guy was nails in the opportunities he was given.

I'm interested to see what Thomas has.

Sure-Oz
08-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Intimidation, like the old Ravens D and knock some blocks off

Chief Henry
08-19-2008, 03:43 PM
I want speed with the combonation of knocking the other ****er out of his cleats

FAX
08-19-2008, 03:49 PM
Indeed it is, Mr. Baby Lee. One whallop is equal to two stinging smushes.

As for the physics thing, we have a potential problem there since "speedy" doesn't necessarily mean "gobs of mass". Of course, you can be a little mass peep and still make your presence known. The point is that, as an NFL defense, if you want to be known for something, doesn't it make sense that you're known for sending opponent guys to the locker room to call their mommas?

I'm afraid that offenses are going to enjoy laughing at our guys expending all that energy buzzing around like tiny blurs as they prepare to crush their speedy little asses into infinitesimal flatjacks with their giant, steamroller guys on a sweep.

FAX

KC Tattoo
08-19-2008, 07:39 PM
I want a defense that shows no mercy Mr. Fax, NO MERCY!

RJ
08-19-2008, 07:50 PM
I want a defense that, when they take the field, will allow me to go get a beer and check on the grill, knowing that when I come back the other team will be punting.

blueballs
08-19-2008, 08:00 PM
what ever the **** works
it's been so long since a KC D
has meant anything but a belly laugh

smittysbar
08-19-2008, 08:42 PM
You can have both, the Ravens used to be both. It doesn't have to be one or the other

Smed1065
08-19-2008, 09:32 PM
I love the hitting that Page and Pollard can do but at this stage, I believe most would trade some of that hitting for wrapping up.

FAX
08-19-2008, 10:16 PM
You can have both, the Ravens used to be both. It doesn't have to be one or the other

Unquestionably, Mr. smittysbar. And, that would certainly be nice. Frankly, it's my hope that we will field a defense that does, in fact, excel at both. Nevertheless, I made this here thread mainly for two reasons; 1) Both Herm and Guntherrific have commented on the defense's "speed" several times of late. Whether it's true or not, these statements lead me to think that the coaching staff believes team "speed" is the most important factor in building a defense (if they do believe this, I would find that somewhat troubling), and 2) Defenses are generally "known" around the league for one attribute or another. For example, over the last few years our defense has been known as a "suck". Anyway, I was curious how other Planeteers felt about it - you know, if we are to be "known" for something, is "speed" the first choice. I know it isn't mine. Mine is violence. Gut splattering, brain spilling, fear spawning, pain inducing, bone shattering, gatorade cup shaking, urine generating violence.

FAX

T-post Tom
08-19-2008, 10:47 PM
HS Physics, if two things have the same mass, the one moving FASTER packs more of a whallop.

Is whallop still the international standard measure?

Yes. And it's still directly proportional to the "snot bubble factor".