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QuikSsurfer
08-19-2008, 07:49 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26271328/
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RALEIGH, North Carolina - College presidents from about 100 of the best-known U.S. universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.

The movement called the Amethyst Initiative began quietly recruiting presidents more than a year ago to provoke national debate about the U.S. drinking age, which is among the highest in the world.

"This is a law that is routinely evaded," said John McCardell, former president of Middlebury College in Vermont who started the organization. "It is a law that the people at whom it is directed believe is unjust and unfair and discriminatory." Other prominent schools in the group include Syracuse, Tufts, Colgate, Kenyon and Morehouse.

But even before the presidents begin the public phase of their efforts, which may include publishing newspaper ads in the coming weeks, they are already facing sharp criticism.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving says lowering the drinking age would lead to more fatal car crashes. It accuses the presidents of misrepresenting science and looking for an easy way out of an inconvenient problem. MADD officials are even urging parents to think carefully about the safety of colleges whose presidents have signed on.

"It's very clear the 21-year-old drinking age will not be enforced at those campuses," said Laura Dean-Mooney, national president of MADD.

Injuries, deaths from alcohol abuse
Both sides agree alcohol abuse by college students is a huge problem.

Research has found more than 40 percent of college students reported at least one symptom of alcohol abuse or dependence. One study has estimated more than 500,000 full-time students at four-year colleges suffer injuries each year related in some way to drinking, and about 1,700 die in such accidents.

A recent Associated Press analysis of federal records found that 157 college-age people, 18 to 23, drank themselves to death from 1999 through 2005.

Moana Jagasia, a Duke University sophomore from Singapore, where the drinking age is lower, said reducing the age in the U.S. could be helpful.

"There isn't that much difference in maturity between 21 and 18," she said. "If the age is younger, you're getting exposed to it at a younger age, and you don't freak out when you get to campus."

McCardell's group takes its name from ancient Greece, where the purple gemstone amethyst was widely believed to ward off drunkenness if used in drinking vessels and jewelry. He said college students will drink no matter what, but do so more dangerously when it's illegal.

The statement the presidents have signed avoids calling explicitly for a younger drinking age. Rather, it seeks "an informed and dispassionate debate" over the issue and the federal highway law that made 21 the de facto national drinking age by denying money to any state that bucks the trend.

But the statement makes clear the signers think the current law isn't working, citing a "culture of dangerous, clandestine binge-drinking," and noting that while adults under 21 can vote and enlist in the military, they "are told they are not mature enough to have a beer." Furthermore, "by choosing to use fake IDs, students make ethical compromises that erode respect for the law."

Shifting burden to high schools
But some college administrators sharply disagree that lowering the drinking age would help. University of Miami President Donna Shalala, who served as secretary of health and human services under President Bill Clinton, declined to sign.

"I remember college campuses when we had 18-year-old drinking ages, and I honestly believe we've made some progress," Shalala said in a telephone interview. "To just shift it back down to the high schools makes no sense at all."

Another scholar who has extensively researched college binge-drinking also criticized the presidents' initiative.

"I understand why colleges are doing it, because it splits their students, and they like to treat them all alike rather than having to card some of them. It's a nuisance to them," said Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health.

But, he added, "I wish these college presidents sat around and tried to work out ways to deal with the problem on their campus rather than try to eliminate the problem by defining it out of existence."

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-19-2008, 08:32 PM
Elizabeth Dole is gonna be pissed.

Jenson71
08-19-2008, 11:17 PM
Furthermore, "by choosing to use fake IDs, students make ethical compromises that erode respect for the law."

Yeah, that's respectful. Change the laws until kids like it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-19-2008, 11:31 PM
Yeah, that's respectful. Change the laws until kids like it.

Yeah, that's a stupid point to make, but let's not forget that the only reason states ever went along with Liddy Dole's dumbass idea is b/c she was transpo sec. and would have withheld federal funding for roads if they didn't.

A drinking age of 21 is one of the most horseshit laws imaginable. Get married, have kids, go to war, but by God, don't touch liquor.

morphius
08-20-2008, 12:20 AM
Yeah, that's a stupid point to make, but let's not forget that the only reason states ever went along with Liddy Dole's dumbass idea is b/c she was transpo sec. and would have withheld federal funding for roads if they didn't.

A drinking age of 21 is one of the most horseshit laws imaginable. Get married, have kids, go to war, but by God, don't touch liquor.
I don't drink much at all, and I agree completely. Just silly really.

Predarat
08-20-2008, 12:37 AM
That would have been a kick ass law to have back when I was 18 but getting it illegally was kind of fun looking back on it lol. Of course back then it was easier to get illegally, but still not easy.

Guru
08-20-2008, 12:46 AM
It should have never went to 21 in the first place. Old enough to die for your country but you can't crack a beer.

mikey23545
08-20-2008, 04:15 AM
It should have never went to 21 in the first place. Old enough to die for your country but you can't crack a beer.

This is perhaps the stupidest argument ever made.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Guru
08-20-2008, 05:22 AM
This is perhaps the stupidest argument ever made.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I didn't say one had anything to do with the other. And I really don't give a shit what you think about it. Hamas mentioned it to but I guess that was OK in your book.

PhillyChiefFan
08-20-2008, 06:20 AM
I wonder how much states make on college underages, not to mention lawyers?

Unfortunatly, I doubt this will happen. I think it should be raised, kids that go to college don't know their limits, and it is EVERYWHERE in college and in large quantities. I drank in high school, but no where near how much I did in college.

Demonpenz
08-20-2008, 07:47 AM
I think it should be raised. MIP and the following classes provide income to the city's

HypnotizedMonkey
08-20-2008, 07:59 AM
Make alcohol illegal and bring back weed! Obamanos!

Chief Chief
08-20-2008, 08:10 AM
So if we make consumption of alcohol legal for 18 year olds, we're really saying, "Go get drunk on your ass and then vote!"

DaKCMan AP
08-20-2008, 08:23 AM
I wonder how much states make on college underages, not to mention lawyers?

Unfortunatly, I doubt this will happen. I think it should be raised, kids that go to college don't know their limits, and it is EVERYWHERE in college and in large quantities. I drank in high school, but no where near how much I did in college.

You think the age limit should be raised above 21???????????????

MIAdragon
08-20-2008, 08:28 AM
I think the drinking age should be lowered but the driving age should be raised.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

Uncle_Ted
08-20-2008, 09:00 AM
This is perhaps the stupidest argument ever made.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Why do you hate our troops? You think our soldiers who are under 21 are not mature and responsible enough to choose whether to drink alcohol? I'll bet you voted for John Kerry in 2004. You must want the terrorists to win!

:D

OK, all joking aside, how exactly is that "the dumbest argument ever made"?

The argument is that when a person reaches 18 we consider that person responsible enough to be a full-fledged "adult". We allow that person to vote. We allow them freedom to choose to join the military and die for their country. We consider them sufficiently responsible to be held fully accountable under the criminal laws for their behavior (and 18 is no longer a magic number ... thousands or people are serving life sentences for crimes committed when they were as young as 14). In short, they are allowed to make any decision they want to about their lives except one ... they cannot legally choose to drink a beer.

phillip
08-20-2008, 09:20 AM
That's just what I was going to say. They have everything to do with each other. If you are mature enough to decide to risk your life for the good of the country and mature enough to choose the country's leader, you're certainly mature enough to handle a beer.

DaKCMan AP
08-20-2008, 09:25 AM
That's just what I was going to say. They have everything to do with each other. If you are mature enough to decide to risk your life for the good of the country and mature enough to choose the country's leader, you're certainly mature enough to handle a beer.

You have to understand, Repubs don't want the government to touch their money or healthcare but want to control what you can do to your body and take away your personal liberties while giving religion a greater role in government.

irishjayhawk
08-20-2008, 04:13 PM
You know, the sad thing is, that when one turns 21 they don't care anymore. It's like we just ignore the idiotic wrong things until they no longer apply to us. I just don't get it.

I'm 21 and for the lowering of the retarded drinking age. I'm also not a smoker and am for the legalization of weed. Technically, I've never even tried it. (I hate the smell. :p)

SCTrojan
08-20-2008, 04:50 PM
Why do you hate our troops? You think our soldiers who are under 21 are not mature and responsible enough to choose whether to drink alcohol? I'll bet you voted for John Kerry in 2004. You must want the terrorists to win!

:D

OK, all joking aside, how exactly is that "the dumbest argument ever made"?

The argument is that when a person reaches 18 we consider that person responsible enough to be a full-fledged "adult". We allow that person to vote. We allow them freedom to choose to join the military and die for their country. We consider them sufficiently responsible to be held fully accountable under the criminal laws for their behavior (and 18 is no longer a magic number ... thousands or people are serving life sentences for crimes committed when they were as young as 14). In short, they are allowed to make any decision they want to about their lives except one ... they cannot legally choose to drink a beer.

I can see the validity of all the other points. But it's been my experience that when anyone plays the "I can die for my country but can't get a beer" card, they have no inclination whatsoever about joining the military. If that's really the issue, then let's just make it legal for all servicemembers to drink and that should satisfy the outrage.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-20-2008, 04:56 PM
I can see the validity of all the other points. But it's been my experience that when anyone plays the "I can die for my country but can't get a beer" card, they have no inclination whatsoever about joining the military. If that's really the issue, then let's just make it legal for all servicemembers to drink and that should satisfy the outrage.

I believe that they let you have 3.2 if you are in the military and on the base.

SCTrojan
08-20-2008, 05:05 PM
I believe that they let you have 3.2 if you are in the military and on the base.

You know, it's been so long since I've noticed whether anyone gets carded on base. From what I remember, there wasn't much scrutiny in the clubs and the exchanges.

irishjayhawk
08-20-2008, 05:05 PM
I can see the validity of all the other points. But it's been my experience that when anyone plays the "I can die for my country but can't get a beer" card, they have no inclination whatsoever about joining the military. If that's really the issue, then let's just make it legal for all servicemembers to drink and that should satisfy the outrage.

That has nothing to do with the absurd double standard present. We have established the LEGAL adult age as 18. However the LEGAL age to drink is 21. The contradiction is right there. The military part is a powerful ploy to empathy. And it is still accurate.

Bugeater
08-20-2008, 05:11 PM
Yeah, that's respectful. Change the laws until kids like it.

When they turn 18 they're not kids anymore.

SCTrojan
08-20-2008, 05:18 PM
That has nothing to do with the absurd double standard present. We have established the LEGAL adult age as 18. However the LEGAL age to drink is 21. The contradiction is right there. The military part is a powerful ploy to empathy. And it is still accurate.

I agree that there is a contradiction. It is just a pet peeve of mine that when people make that specific argument, it often has nothing to do with any real outrage.

When troops use the argument, I agree, it's very powerful. IMO it loses any meaning when people who have never had any inkling to join the military make the argument.

irishjayhawk
08-20-2008, 05:20 PM
I agree that there is a contradiction. It is just a pet peeve of mine that when people make that specific argument, it often has nothing to do with any real outrage.

When troops use the argument, I agree, it's very powerful. IMO it loses any meaning when people who have never had any inkling to join the military make the argument.

So rhetoric only applies when it directly applies to said arguer?

irishjayhawk
08-20-2008, 05:21 PM
Yeah, that's respectful. Change the laws until kids like it.

Please tell me you aren't serious.

SCTrojan
08-20-2008, 05:23 PM
So rhetoric only applies when it directly applies to said arguer?

Well, in this case, with me, yes.

KCChiefsMan
08-20-2008, 06:03 PM
I'd be lying if I said I didn't binge drink weekly when I was first in college and under the age of 21

Dayze
08-20-2008, 06:52 PM
It should have never went to 21 in the first place. Old enough to die for your country but you can't crack a beer.

yep; either lower the drinking age, or raise the age to enlist
(the latter will never happen)

Ridiculous.
Old enough to go to war, and kill someone (possibly)/die for your country, elect a president & congress: yet not responsible enough to have a beer. BS.

If and when I have a kid if he/she's 18 and wants a beer, I'm good with it as long as I'm supervising.

tmax63
08-20-2008, 07:22 PM
They were talking about it on talk radio this afternoon. A caller talked about his son, a Staff Sergeant in the Army, who the Government trusts to lead troops into battle, elect a president,etc etc but doesn't trust his judgement on whether to drink a beer with his lunch or a glass of wine with dinner. It all starts at home. People need to be parents and teach their kids responsibility and trust and not wait for the nanny-state to regulate when you can do this or that. European nations don't make a big deal out of it and kids grow up okay even with the demon spirits in their midst.

Deberg_1990
08-20-2008, 07:24 PM
I wish they would lower the age to 5.

Id like to be able to share a beer with my son from time to time legally.

irishjayhawk
08-20-2008, 07:34 PM
I wish they would lower the age to 5.

Id like to be able to share a beer with my son from time to time legally.

There is some truth to that. Europe has far less bingeing than the US.

Deberg_1990
08-20-2008, 07:37 PM
There is some truth to that. Europe has far less bingeing than the US.


Im aware of this. Europeans dont treat alcohol as if its the "Forbidden Fruit".

ClevelandBronco
08-20-2008, 07:40 PM
Get married, have kids, go to war, but by God, don't touch liquor.

Yeah. Liquor really enhances those experiences.

ClevelandBronco
08-20-2008, 07:41 PM
I wish they would lower the age to 5.

Id like to be able to share a beer with my son from time to time legally.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, that's perfectly legal in Colorado, as it was years ago in Ohio.

KCTitus
08-20-2008, 08:12 PM
it should be 18...some oldtimers around here, would probably mention the fact that KS had 18 as their legal drinking age back about 25 years or so ago. Many of the 18 yo's on the MO side would venture to the KS side for the nights to enjoy the liberties that MO wouldnt allow. Of course, the MO police were waiting at the border.

I was about 16 when the law changed in KS. Fortunately for me, my friends were 21 when I was 18. That helps... a lot.

Jayhawkerman2001
08-20-2008, 09:11 PM
Lowering the drinking age in this country would be dumb. Think back, when were your most confusing and stressful times in life? I'd say from around 17-22. I don't have much of a reason as to why i totally think they shouldn't change the age, but i feel like its just not a good idea, not at all.

irishjayhawk
08-20-2008, 09:46 PM
Lowering the drinking age in this country would be dumb. Think back, when were your most confusing and stressful times in life? I'd say from around 17-22. I don't have much of a reason as to why i totally think they shouldn't change the age, but i feel like its just not a good idea, not at all.

Yes, encourage more bingeing. Treat it like Prohibition. That worked out well. I don't really see much difference, honestly.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-20-2008, 10:06 PM
Yeah. Liquor really enhances those experiences.

Wow. Idiot.

dj56dt58
08-20-2008, 10:44 PM
I agree..its ****ing stupid that its 21 now..if they would stop making such a big deal over alcohol there wouldn't be so many problems imo..people would be used to it and not abuse it so much

Jenson71
08-20-2008, 10:58 PM
When they turn 18 they're not kids anymore.

Sorry - "students"

Jenson71
08-20-2008, 11:19 PM
Please tell me you aren't serious.

Yeah, I'm definitely serious. Like Hamas said, it's a horrible point to make.

I'm neither for nor against changing the law, but that quote needed to be laughed at.

ChiefsCountry
08-21-2008, 12:22 AM
The thrill is lots of the reason why underage people do it. Put at 18 and lots of problems stop IMO.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-21-2008, 12:23 AM
Yeah, I'm definitely serious. Like Hamas said, it's a horrible point to make.

I'm neither for nor against changing the law, but that quote needed to be laughed at.

There is no cause so noble it won't attract f*cktards.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-21-2008, 12:24 AM
The thrill is lots of the reason why underage people do it. Put at 18 and lots of problems stop IMO.

People who are interested in this should really read Foucault.

The raising of the drinking age has created the same effect that the Victorian age did for human sexuality.

SithCeNtZ
08-21-2008, 12:29 AM
They should change it to 19. Lowering it to 18 would only shift the problem to the high school level and not really cure anything. 19 is the perfect age since that is when most people are freshman at the college level and start to really drink.

Tribal Warfare
08-21-2008, 12:35 AM
The big problem with the dangerous binging before 21, if they lower it then that danger stays the same or increases with individuals that don't meet the 18 years old age limit too.