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Douche Baggins
08-22-2008, 11:21 PM
http://kan.scout.com/2/782157.html

Poor Brodie Croyle just canít win these days, and Iím not even talking about NFL games. No, Iím referring to the way Chiefs fans fly off the handle whenever Croyle shows even the most remote of signs of busting as KCís quarterback of the future.

Last weekend when Croyle spent his evening either dumping the ball short, throwing it out of bounds or overthrowing receivers, Chiefs fans everywhere took it as a sign that it was time to find a new quarterback. Some even insinuated that weíll see Damon Huard (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698859) starting by the end of the season.

I wonít address such absurd claims within this space, but I will attempt to inject some modicum of reasonability when it comes to reactions over Croyle and the Chiefs offense. What struck me was not the reaction of fans in general last weekend, but rather the fans inside Arrowhead Stadium.

Unlike last preseason, when Croyle was booed heartily off the field numerous times, Saturday against the Cardinals the Arrowhead crowd was fairly quiet with their criticism. Thatís because, hopefully, most of them recognized the difference between this preseason and last.

Compare Croyleís first two preseason games of 2007 to the first two this year, and itís not even close. Yes, the numbers are eerily similar, as Croyle had thrown for 131 yards on 11 completions this time last year, compared to 120 yards on 13 completions presently. But there is a difference.

In his first six preseason drives of 2007, Croyle had more interceptions (two) than scores (one). Only one drive lasted longer than five plays, and though it ended in a touchdown, that came against Miamiís backup defenders. Hardly impressive.

This preseason, as the unquestioned starter, Croyle has faced mainly the oppositionís front-line players through six drives. Half of those marches have covered at least 12 plays, three have resulted in scores, and most importantly, none have culminated in interceptions.

The lesson here is simple Ė if Brodie Croyle (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698850) continues to lead long drives and protects the football, the Chiefs will be successful on offense. Maybe not prolific, maybe not the class of the league, but good enough to win football games, provided the defense holds up.

Forget the statistics Croyle is putting up and instead focus on the results. I know Chiefs Head Coach Herm Edwards was after the Cardinals left Arrowhead.

ďI thought offensively, we were moving the ball,Ē he said. ďWe had an opportunity to score some points but didnít get any on the board early. We had to kick field goals. I thought we protected the ball well in the first half. We didnít lay it on the ground, didnít throw any interceptions.Ē

The key to all of this is Kansas Cityís running game. If you recall, last season the Chiefs could not run the ball. They were the worst team in the league at running the ball, and we all should have seen it coming. Thatís because the Chiefs also could not run the ball in the 2007 preseason.

Before Kolby Smith (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698874) ripped off a 55-yard run in the last preseason game, leading to a 148-yard night against the Rams, the Chiefs best rushing performance in August last year was a whopping 90 yards. They averaged three yards per carry or less in the second and third games.

While itís true that KCís offense did not run the ball all that well in Chicago (only 3.3 yards per carry), last week the Chiefs pounded out 153 yards rushing and turned in a consistent rushing performance the likes of which they never even came close to seeing a year ago. Larry Johnson looked like Larry Johnson, and at one point the offense went on a 12-play march that included just one completed pass.

Edwards, of course, was a happy man after it was over.

ďWe went into the game with certain things we wanted to do and the big emphasis was run the ball,Ē he said. ďIf you look at that one drive I think we threw one pass. We just ran the ball. That was done on purpose; it was no accident because we didnít do a good enough job the week before.Ē

ďI said this after the game: we didnít do enough running the ball. We want to be able to possess the ball; we want to be able to take time off the clock. We had it 34 minutes. If you have the ball 34 minutes and donít turn it over and you run the ball for about 150 or 170 yards a game you have a chance to win some football games.Ē

And heís right. If Edwardsí quarterback continues to play within himself and his offense runs the ball as they did last week, the Chiefs will win some games this season. Probably more than they did a year ago. Maybe then, the fans will finally give Brodie Croyle some breathing room.

Smed1065
08-22-2008, 11:23 PM
You need to get the next dick to suck. He has 1000 , If he tries...

Smed1065
08-22-2008, 11:24 PM
After he sucks , LJ might suck you.....

NM, hes not that gay but I bet you are.

boogblaster
08-22-2008, 11:26 PM
The running game will improve this year ... Bank that ....

Smed1065
08-22-2008, 11:31 PM
The running game will improve this year ... Bank that ....

Huh, like it will not, 3.2 yards?



Duh, if it does means clay is a welch and a jinx.


Yes I have proof.

Smed1065
08-22-2008, 11:31 PM
The running game will improve this year ... Bank that ....

Bank 3 of 4 is hurt?


Bank It!

Smed1065
08-22-2008, 11:32 PM
The running game will improve this year ... Bank that ....

From what to what? 2 to 3 yards?

Smed1065
08-22-2008, 11:33 PM
Meccca?

Mecca
08-22-2008, 11:41 PM
LOL.....ok this is what I'm going to say is my biggest problem with Herm and how he wants to do things. By the time you're on your 12th play unless you started at the 1 you should be in the endzone.

Wanting to run these ridiculous 15+ play drives to score and eat clock isn't wise, you know why? Usually when you run that many plays someone ****s up, whether that's a penalty you fail to convert on one of the many 3rd downs you see, the best teams in the league are usually around 48% on 3rd down conversations, or someone just frankly misses an assignment.

When you run that many plays drives generally will stall out because asking everyone to be on for that many plays in a row isn't wise. Especially with a team like this.

I also think it's an offensive gameplan and philosophy stuck in 1967 but that's another topic.

MadMax
08-22-2008, 11:49 PM
http://kan.scout.com/2/782157.html

Poor Brodie Croyle just canít win these days, and Iím not even talking about NFL games. No, Iím referring to the way Chiefs fans fly off the handle whenever Croyle shows even the most remote of signs of busting as KCís quarterback of the future.

Last weekend when Croyle spent his evening either dumping the ball short, throwing it out of bounds or overthrowing receivers, Chiefs fans everywhere took it as a sign that it was time to find a new quarterback. Some even insinuated that weíll see Damon Huard (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698859) starting by the end of the season.

I wonít address such absurd claims within this space, but I will attempt to inject some modicum of reasonability when it comes to reactions over Croyle and the Chiefs offense. What struck me was not the reaction of fans in general last weekend, but rather the fans inside Arrowhead Stadium.

Unlike last preseason, when Croyle was booed heartily off the field numerous times, Saturday against the Cardinals the Arrowhead crowd was fairly quiet with their criticism. Thatís because, hopefully, most of them recognized the difference between this preseason and last.

Compare Croyleís first two preseason games of 2007 to the first two this year, and itís not even close. Yes, the numbers are eerily similar, as Croyle had thrown for 131 yards on 11 completions this time last year, compared to 120 yards on 13 completions presently. But there is a difference.

In his first six preseason drives of 2007, Croyle had more interceptions (two) than scores (one). Only one drive lasted longer than five plays, and though it ended in a touchdown, that came against Miamiís backup defenders. Hardly impressive.

This preseason, as the unquestioned starter, Croyle has faced mainly the oppositionís front-line players through six drives. Half of those marches have covered at least 12 plays, three have resulted in scores, and most importantly, none have culminated in interceptions.

The lesson here is simple Ė if Brodie Croyle (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698850) continues to lead long drives and protects the football, the Chiefs will be successful on offense. Maybe not prolific, maybe not the class of the league, but good enough to win football games, provided the defense holds up.

Forget the statistics Croyle is putting up and instead focus on the results. I know Chiefs Head Coach Herm Edwards was after the Cardinals left Arrowhead.

ďI thought offensively, we were moving the ball,Ē he said. ďWe had an opportunity to score some points but didnít get any on the board early. We had to kick field goals. I thought we protected the ball well in the first half. We didnít lay it on the ground, didnít throw any interceptions.Ē

The key to all of this is Kansas Cityís running game. If you recall, last season the Chiefs could not run the ball. They were the worst team in the league at running the ball, and we all should have seen it coming. Thatís because the Chiefs also could not run the ball in the 2007 preseason.

Before Kolby Smith (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698874) ripped off a 55-yard run in the last preseason game, leading to a 148-yard night against the Rams, the Chiefs best rushing performance in August last year was a whopping 90 yards. They averaged three yards per carry or less in the second and third games.

While itís true that KCís offense did not run the ball all that well in Chicago (only 3.3 yards per carry), last week the Chiefs pounded out 153 yards rushing and turned in a consistent rushing performance the likes of which they never even came close to seeing a year ago. Larry Johnson looked like Larry Johnson, and at one point the offense went on a 12-play march that included just one completed pass.

Edwards, of course, was a happy man after it was over.

ďWe went into the game with certain things we wanted to do and the big emphasis was run the ball,Ē he said. ďIf you look at that one drive I think we threw one pass. We just ran the ball. That was done on purpose; it was no accident because we didnít do a good enough job the week before.Ē

ďI said this after the game: we didnít do enough running the ball. We want to be able to possess the ball; we want to be able to take time off the clock. We had it 34 minutes. If you have the ball 34 minutes and donít turn it over and you run the ball for about 150 or 170 yards a game you have a chance to win some football games.Ē

And heís right. If Edwardsí quarterback continues to play within himself and his offense runs the ball as they did last week, the Chiefs will win some games this season. Probably more than they did a year ago. Maybe then, the fans will finally give Brodie Croyle some breathing room.



If Huard enters I exit :( And anyone who doesn't give Brodie at least this FULL year judges him then **** them IMHO....

MadMax
08-22-2008, 11:55 PM
LOL.....ok this is what I'm going to say is my biggest problem with Herm and how he wants to do things. By the time you're on your 12th play unless you started at the 1 you should be in the endzone.

Wanting to run these ridiculous 15+ play drives to score and eat clock isn't wise, you know why? Usually when you run that many plays someone ****s up, whether that's a penalty you fail to convert on one of the many 3rd downs you see, the best teams in the league are usually around 48% on 3rd down conversations, or someone just frankly misses an assignment.

When you run that many plays drives generally will stall out because asking everyone to be on for that many plays in a row isn't wise. Especially with a team like this.

I also think it's an offensive gameplan and philosophy stuck in 1967 but that's another topic.



I can agree with that! lol I'm tryin my hardest not to complain till they play some games THIS season. Yet history does kinda bum ya out. I'm lovin the draft and praying for development and improvement at this point.

FAX
08-23-2008, 12:03 AM
“I said this after the game: we didn’t do enough running the ball. We want to be able to possess the ball; we want to be able to take time off the clock. We had it 34 minutes. If you have the ball 34 minutes and don’t turn it over and you run the ball for about 150 or 170 yards a game you have a chance to win some football games.”

That's the Herm I know and love.

FAX

Tiger's Fan
08-23-2008, 12:14 AM
LOL.....ok this is what I'm going to say is my biggest problem with Herm and how he wants to do things. By the time you're on your 12th play unless you started at the 1 you should be in the endzone.

Wanting to run these ridiculous 15+ play drives to score and eat clock isn't wise, you know why? Usually when you run that many plays someone ****s up, whether that's a penalty you fail to convert on one of the many 3rd downs you see, the best teams in the league are usually around 48% on 3rd down conversations, or someone just frankly misses an assignment.

When you run that many plays drives generally will stall out because asking everyone to be on for that many plays in a row isn't wise. Especially with a team like this.

I also think it's an offensive gameplan and philosophy stuck in 1967 but that's another topic.

You do realize Herm Edwards is the head coach of this team? This is as good as it's going to get under him. Sorry if you were expecting something else.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:22 AM
You do realize Herm Edwards is the head coach of this team? This is as good as it's going to get under him. Sorry if you were expecting something else.

And it's an extreme flaw and why even if our talent level does go up we won't get alot of out it.

OctoberFart
08-23-2008, 01:02 AM
The KC Chiefs need a running game because limiting the times Croyle passes the ball is better for the team. Croyle passing the ball is not a good thing.

Tiger's Fan
08-23-2008, 01:36 AM
The KC Chiefs need a running game because limiting the times Croyle passes the ball is better for the team. Croyle passing the ball is not a good thing.

A JRuss/fade fan would know this as well as anyone.

Pablo
08-23-2008, 02:32 AM
The KC Chiefs need a running game because limiting the times Croyle passes the ball is better for the team. Croyle passing the ball is not a good thing.That why JaBustus Fatsell is limited to throwing laterally...

Even as dumb as the entire Raiders organization is, they know to hand the rock off to McFadden and Fargas.

Wile_E_Coyote
08-23-2008, 06:08 AM
He is the QB, it comes with the territory

old_geezer
08-23-2008, 06:13 AM
And it's an extreme flaw and why even if our talent level does go up we won't get alot of out it.


I seldom get in the middle of pro/con arguments anymore but I agree with Mecca 100% on this statement. Herm's ultra conservative approach makes bad teams look a little better and good teams a little worse. It not only cuts down on mistakes; it cuts down on success. (IMO)

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 07:58 AM
Good article, Clayton.

ChiefsCountry
08-23-2008, 09:03 AM
LOL.....ok this is what I'm going to say is my biggest problem with Herm and how he wants to do things. By the time you're on your 12th play unless you started at the 1 you should be in the endzone.

Wanting to run these ridiculous 15+ play drives to score and eat clock isn't wise, you know why? Usually when you run that many plays someone ****s up, whether that's a penalty you fail to convert on one of the many 3rd downs you see, the best teams in the league are usually around 48% on 3rd down conversations, or someone just frankly misses an assignment.

When you run that many plays drives generally will stall out because asking everyone to be on for that many plays in a row isn't wise. Especially with a team like this.

I also think it's an offensive gameplan and philosophy stuck in 1967 but that's another topic.

Vermeil and company had a bunch of long drives, so does Manning and the Colts, hell the Chargers are the same way.

Deberg_1990
08-23-2008, 09:14 AM
Vermeil and company had a bunch of long drives, so does Manning and the Colts, hell the Chargers are the same way.

Did you not read his whole post? Those teams put the ball in the endzone at the end of their long drives.

Those teams have/had good QB's.

Bearcat
08-23-2008, 09:28 AM
If you have the ball 34 minutes and donít turn it over and you run the ball for about 150 or 170 yards a game you have a chance to win some football games.


Good article.... having heard this crap from Herm "you play to have a chance to win" Edwards for a few years now, I just laugh now. All he ever talks about is having a chance to win. I wish it was just his personality and not a philosophy. Just get it into the 4th quarter and hope for a turnover on defense or a big run into field-goal range.

Maybe the whole teams should start talking like this for the next couple of weeks. The Patriots will be so relaxed after laughing so hard at the bulletin board clippings, the Chiefs might get a decent 9-3 lead going into halftime. After that it's all about field position and clock management. I'm sure the defense can hold that lead for the final 30 minutes.

jidar
08-23-2008, 09:28 AM
I said this after the game: we didnít do enough running the ball.

Arrrgghhh. That was the best this offense has looked since Herm got here and he didn't like it. Apparently scoring touchdowns is secondary to running the ball for Herm, since he was much more pleased with the drive that only had 1 pass but couldn't get into the end zone. **** that shit. If this team is ever going to win he's going to have to stop ****ing with the OC

jidar
08-23-2008, 09:30 AM
Vermeil and company had a bunch of long drives, so does Manning and the Colts, hell the Chargers are the same way.

A lot of 12 play drives? Man I bet half of the TD drives that Vermeil ran with the Chiefs were 5 plays or less.

ChiefsCountry
08-23-2008, 09:32 AM
A lot of 12 play drives? Man I bet half of the TD drives that Vermeil ran with the Chiefs were 5 plays or less.

Bullshit. Those teams ran the ball.

milkman
08-23-2008, 09:41 AM
Arrrgghhh. That was the best this offense has looked since Herm got here and he didn't like it. Apparently scoring touchdowns is secondary to running the ball for Herm, since he was much more pleased with the drive that only had 1 pass but couldn't get into the end zone. **** that shit. If this team is ever going to win he's going to have to stop ****ing with the OC

While I have concerns about Herman ****ing Edwards offensive philosophy, I'd have to say his concerns about the ground game after the first preseason game were ligitimate.

The fact is, while that drive was impressive, there's no way any team can hope to sustain drives consistently when faced with the number of 3rd and longs that the Chiefs converted in that drive.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 10:43 AM
Bullshit. Those teams ran the ball.

Vet laden vs rookie laden

I don't think it's wise to do it with Vet teams either but it's a really bad idea with a young team. You need to have a gameplan and call plays that will move the ball period, not to run the clock and run alot of plays.

I seriously doubt the Colts call plays to eat the clock if they could score in 2 plays they will.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 10:49 AM
I seriously doubt the Colts call plays to eat the clock if they could score in 2 plays they will.


They cant with Peyton? HOF quarterback. 1st rounder.

Blasphemy.

What do you mean if?

:evil:

OctoberFart
08-23-2008, 10:51 AM
A JRuss/fade fan would know this as well as anyone.

We aren't talking about the RAIDERS. Typical queef fan deflecting from the truth of his team to another team.

OctoberFart
08-23-2008, 10:52 AM
That why JaBustus Fatsell is limited to throwing laterally...

Even as dumb as the entire Raiders organization is, they know to hand the rock off to McFadden and Fargas.


Why are you talking about the RAIDERS? This thread isn't about them it's about Croyle and the queefs.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 10:53 AM
They cant with Peyton? HOF quarterback. 1st rounder.

Blasphemy.

What do you mean if?

:evil:

This offensive philosophy will likely blow up in the Chiefs faces numerous times this year but it's nothing Herm isn't use to, it's been happening to him for years and he refuses to change his approach.

milkman
08-23-2008, 10:56 AM
We aren't talking about the RAIDERS. Typical queef fan deflecting from the truth of his team to another team.

Oh, the irony.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:00 AM
This offensive philosophy will likely blow up in the Chiefs faces numerous times this year but it's nothing Herm isn't use to, it's been happening to him for years and he refuses to change his approach.

I agree, its like our half time adjustments (or lack of).

Is it his belief or ego? Maybe what he has to work with.

Maybe Herm needs to make a call to Dungy?
We can pay Dungy to call Herm.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:03 AM
I agree, its like our half time adjustments (or lack of).

Is it his belief or ego?

Ignorance mixed with ego, he really believes what he thinks is right, I honestly think he sits around and thinks teams that play like the Patriots when they throw it 45 times aren't playing the right way and he's right and they're wrong.

And what changed Dungy was a franchise QB that stood up to him, because even the most hard headed man in the world realizes when another man has more pull than him. If Dungy hadn't changed his ways he'd have been fired for now the coach is going before the franchise QB.

milkman
08-23-2008, 11:08 AM
Ignorance mixed with ego, he really believes what he thinks is right, I honestly think he sits around and thinks teams that play like the Patriots when they throw it 45 times aren't playing the right way and he's right and they're wrong.

And what changed Dungy was a franchise QB that stood up to him, because even the most hard headed man in the world realizes when another man has more pull than him. If Dungy hadn't changed his ways he'd have been fired for now the coach is going before the franchise QB.

I don't think Dungy changed.
He never had a QB that he could rely on to win games until Manning.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:11 AM
I don't think Dungy changed.
He never had a QB that he could rely on to win games until Manning.

He's changed, do you remember what happened in his first couple years there? Manning would overrule his shit on the field, remember him waving the punt team off the field?

Now they're fine, Dungy lets Peyton do his thing, and they have a top notch GM who keeps the team bringing in good young players in the draft. Dungy has had say and done well over the defense but they've kept him away from the offense mostly because Peyton didn't back down to him early on.

Dungy is in a perfect situation for him, the only thing he has to worry about is the defense and maybe having some input on bringing in players there...other than that he worries about nothing. He stays away from the offense they have a top GM.

RedThat
08-23-2008, 11:12 AM
LOL.....ok this is what I'm going to say is my biggest problem with Herm and how he wants to do things. By the time you're on your 12th play unless you started at the 1 you should be in the endzone.

Wanting to run these ridiculous 15+ play drives to score and eat clock isn't wise, you know why? Usually when you run that many plays someone ****s up, whether that's a penalty you fail to convert on one of the many 3rd downs you see, the best teams in the league are usually around 48% on 3rd down conversations, or someone just frankly misses an assignment.

When you run that many plays drives generally will stall out because asking everyone to be on for that many plays in a row isn't wise. Especially with a team like this.

I also think it's an offensive gameplan and philosophy stuck in 1967 but that's another topic.

I disagree with this. Successful teams run long drives all the time. There are big advantages to sustaining long drives. You know that right? I hope you do.

The bottomline in long drives is your teams ability to be both disciplined and to also execute. That's what matters. Good teams have both.

The problem I have with Herm's offense that I could never understand are running plays on 3rd down not past the 3rd marker. The teams ability not trying to force or make plays down the field kills our long drives forcing us to either punt or settle for FG's. that is something I don't understand, and hate.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:16 AM
The way they call plays does not lead to having good sustained drives...they lend to getting yourself into 3rd down consistently and like I said the very best teams in the league are around 48% to think the Chiefs are going to even get 2 of 3 on a given drive is asking alot.

Personally the problem I have is I think they care to much about number of plays and the clock when the number 1 thing should be scoring. If you can score in 1 or 2 plays you do it you don't try to do it in 10 plays instead.

This is just bad philosophy, is it nice to be able to have some long drives, sure it is, but every single one of the best teams in the league has quick strike ability and will use it.

milkman
08-23-2008, 11:18 AM
He's changed, do you remember what happened in his first couple years there? Manning would overrule his shit on the field, remember him waving the punt team off the field?

Now they're fine, Dungy lets Peyton do his thing, and they have a top notch GM who keeps the team bringing in good young players in the draft. Dungy has had say and done well over the defense but they've kept him away from the offense mostly because Peyton didn't back down to him early on.

Dungy is in a perfect situation for him, the only thing he has to worry about is the defense and maybe having some input on bringing in players there...other than that he worries about nothing. He stays away from the offense they have a top GM.

I think that's the perception, but if it wasn't a QB that he believed in, he would have called a timeout and gotten that offense off the field.

Dungy's a smart guy.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:20 AM
I think that's the perception, but if it wasn't a QB that he believed in, he would have called a timeout and gotten that offense off the field.

Dungy's a smart guy.

I don't think any head coach is gonna go to battle with the franchise player....ask Dan Reeves what happened when John Elway decided he didn't like him.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:24 AM
Ignorance mixed with ego, he really believes what he thinks is right, I honestly think he sits around and thinks teams that play like the Patriots when they throw it 45 times aren't playing the right way and he's right and they're wrong.


Those teams play the "right" way based on the talent they have.

It's not a matter of right v. wrong, it's whatever puts your team in the best position to win.

You act like teams have never won before playing a smashmouth, clock-consuming, time of possession game.

It's been Pittsburgh's MO for 25 years, among others.

4 of the Top 5 rushing teams made the playoffs last year, and Minnesota just missed out. The SB Champs were #4.

4 of the Top 5 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs last year.

It's ridiculous to think that the only way to win in this league is to throw the ball all over the yard. 2 of the last 3 SB winners have shown that's not true.

The Giants were 4th in rushing, 21st in passing.

The Steelers were 5th in rushing, 24th in passing.

RedThat
08-23-2008, 11:27 AM
Why couldn't the Chiefs ever have an Elway or Manning?:(

Deberg_1990
08-23-2008, 11:27 AM
Those teams play the "right" way based on the talent they have.




Thats true for the most part.

Do we really trust Croyle + this O-line to start launching 40-50 yard bombs downfield???

At least Gailey appears to be developing an offense to disguise Croyle's weaknesses.

Im not sold on Croyle being a pure pocket passer. Mecca has compared him a little to Jake Plummer and theres probably alot of truth to that unfortunately.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Those teams play the "right" way based on the talent they have.

It's not a matter of right v. wrong, it's whatever puts your team in the best position to win.

You act like teams have never won before playing a smashmouth, clock-consuming, time of possession game.

It's been Pittsburgh's MO for 25 years, among others.

4 of the Top 5 rushing teams made the playoffs last year, and Minnesota just missed out. The SB Champs were #4.

4 of the Top 5 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs last year.

It's ridiculous to think that the only way to win in this league is to throw the ball all over the yard. 2 of the last 3 SB winners have shown that's not true.

The Giants were 4th in rushing, 21st in passing.

The Steelers were 5th in rushing, 24th in passing.

I guarantee you even if the Chiefs had elite offensive personnel all over the field he'd still wanna play this way.

We could have Brady and Moss and he'd wanna run it 30 times...

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Thats true for the most part.

Do we really trust Croyle + this O-line to start launching 40-50 yard bombs downfield???

At least Gailey appears to be developing an offense to disguise Croyle's weaknesses.

Im not sold on Croyle being a pure pocket passer. Mecca has compared him a little to Jake Plummer and theres probably alot of truth to that unfortunately.

Regarding the long passes, I think the team trust Croyle to do so, but can't trust the line to give him enough time to do so.

They've already shown in 2 PS games that they are going to stretch the field a bit - not like Indy or NE, but more throws in that 20-30 yard range.

And as long as what they do moves the chains, as they have this PS, then I'm fine with it.

RedThat
08-23-2008, 11:30 AM
Those teams play the "right" way based on the talent they have.

It's not a matter of right v. wrong, it's whatever puts your team in the best position to win.

You act like teams have never won before playing a smashmouth, clock-consuming, time of possession game.

It's been Pittsburgh's MO for 25 years, among others.

4 of the Top 5 rushing teams made the playoffs last year, and Minnesota just missed out. The SB Champs were #4.

4 of the Top 5 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs last year.

It's ridiculous to think that the only way to win in this league is to throw the ball all over the yard. 2 of the last 3 SB winners have shown that's not true.

The Giants were 4th in rushing, 21st in passing.

The Steelers were 5th in rushing, 24th in passing.

I think Pitts played that way because they didn't have the QB at the time. From the 80's even throughout the 90's the didn't have a real standout QB. That is why I think they played that style. Beat those teams according to your strengths by playing good defense, and outrunning the opposition. But I am noticing a bit of a change now that Roethlisberger is there. They are starting to pass more.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:31 AM
I guarantee you even if the Chiefs had elite offensive personnel all over the field he'd still wanna play this way.

We could have Brady and Moss and he'd wanna run it 30 times...

First, that's pure assumption.

Second, who gives a shit?

Didn't stop Cowher or Coughlin form hoisting a Lombardi...

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:33 AM
I think Pitts played that way because they didn't have the QB at the time. From the 80's even throughout the 90's the didn't have a real standout QB. That is why I think they played that style. Beat those teams according to your strengths by playing good defense, and outrunning the opposition. But I am noticing a bit of a change now that Roethlisberger is there. They are starting to pass more.

Did you even read my post?

The year the Steelers won the SB - in which Roethlisberger played the entire year - they were 5th in rushing and 24th in passing.

And FWIW, MOST teams don't have a standout QB. Not to the level of a Manning or Brady.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:33 AM
The rules of the league lend itself to passing more...the pass is harder and harder to defend.

My major problem with the Herm/Gailey combo is I fully expect defenses to be able to prepare alot more easily for the Chiefs game calling then most teams. When I constantly hear simplified offense I don't like that....if it's really that easy the defense can figure it out.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:34 AM
Those teams play the "right" way based on the talent they have.

It's not a matter of right v. wrong, it's whatever puts your team in the best position to win.

You act like teams have never won before playing a smashmouth, clock-consuming, time of possession game.

It's been Pittsburgh's MO for 25 years, among others.

4 of the Top 5 rushing teams made the playoffs last year, and Minnesota just missed out. The SB Champs were #4.

4 of the Top 5 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs last year.

It's ridiculous to think that the only way to win in this league is to throw the ball all over the yard. 2 of the last 3 SB winners have shown that's not true.

The Giants were 4th in rushing, 21st in passing.

The Steelers were 5th in rushing, 24th in passing.

Many teams have won with this approach. Some people are just as narrow minded as Herm. Smash mouth football is a damn good way to win a lot of games.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:34 AM
First, that's pure assumption.

Second, who gives a shit?

Didn't stop Cowher or Coughlin form hoisting a Lombardi...

Do you really have a desire to be like those coaches? How many times did they choke in the playoffs with the 1 or 2 seed? How many times?

Cowher got his win in the worst officiated Bowl I have ever seen and the Giants won because they had the best DL in the league.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:35 AM
Many teams have won with this approach. Some people are just as narrow minded as Herm. Smash mouth football is a damn good way to win a lot of games.

I'm complaining that I don't think he has any ability to adapt, yes you can win that way but you need to be able to adapt to win..I think from what I've seen here and with the Jets he's very stubborn.

Deberg_1990
08-23-2008, 11:35 AM
And FWIW, MOST teams don't have a standout QB. Not to the level of a Manning or Brady.

That was a very odd year. I think the Steelers were only 10-6 that year and just kind of backed into the playoffs. Then they got on a roll, or were in the middle of one??

Really weird....

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:35 AM
The rules of the league lend itself to passing more...the pass is harder and harder to defend.

My major problem with the Herm/Gailey combo is I fully expect defenses to be able to prepare alot more easily for the Chiefs game calling then most teams. When I constantly hear simplified offense I don't like that....if it's really that easy the defense can figure it out.

I think Chan is gonna mix it up, and the audible system is going to ensure that we're not slamming into 8 man fronts.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:36 AM
That was a very odd year. I think the Steelers were only 10-6 that year and just kind of backed into the playoffs. Then they got on a roll, or were in the middle of one??

Really weird....

They were 15-1 the year before. Smashing people's mouths.

milkman
08-23-2008, 11:37 AM
Im not sold on Croyle being a pure pocket passer. Mecca has compared him a little to Jake Plummer and theres probably alot of truth to that unfortunately.

I don't have a problem with that comparison at all.

Plummer had some talent, and the ability to make plays.

His problem was that he never learned to throw the ball away, or take a sack when a play wasn't there.

If Croyle can do some of the things well that Plummer did, and stay away from the stupid mistakes, he can be very successful.

That, of course, is contingent on whether he can remain healthy.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:38 AM
I think Chan is gonna mix it up, and the audible system is going to ensure that we're not slamming into 8 man fronts.

When real games start, when they see a young QB like Croyle doing that.....they're gonna show him something that isn't what they're doing. Every week, especially that 1st one is going to be defenses trying to confuse the hell out of him to see if he will change into something that is right into what they're doing.

We'll see how he handles it and I know everyone loves the audible thing and it works great for good experienced QB's who know exactly what they're looking at but I fully expect there to be some very ugly moments with it this year that cause people to go insane.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't have a problem with that comparison at all.

Plummer had some talent, and the ability to make plays.

His problem was that he never learned to throw the ball away, or take a sack when a play wasn't there.

If Croyle can do some of the things well that Plummer did, and stay away from the stupid mistakes, he can be very successful.

That, of course, is contingent on whether he can remain healthy.

QFT

Mecca
08-23-2008, 11:39 AM
Didn't we just spend years making fun of Jake Plummer...

milkman
08-23-2008, 11:42 AM
Didn't we just spend years making fun of Jake Plummer...

Yes we did, because of his propensity to make stupid decisions.

But the fact remains, he had talent.

He just had a ten cent head.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:42 AM
When real games start, when they see a young QB like Croyle doing that.....they're gonna show him something that isn't what they're doing. Every week, especially that 1st one is going to be defenses trying to confuse the hell out of him to see if he will change into something that is right into what they're doing.

We'll see how he handles it and I know everyone loves the audible thing and it works great for good experienced QB's who know exactly what they're looking at but I fully expect there to be some very ugly moments with it this year that cause people to go insane.

I agree, and I believe he will learn from everything they throw at him, and become a better QB because of It. It's going to be invaluable to him, when he changes a play, and finds out that the D was fooling him. That's development, and the reason why it's too early too judge him. Fortunately he's going to be tested by teams like the Pats early on. It probably will be ugly, but it's going to be a GREAT learning experience playing against those guys.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:42 AM
The rules of the league lend itself to passing more...the pass is harder and harder to defend.

My major problem with the Herm/Gailey combo is I fully expect defenses to be able to prepare alot more easily for the Chiefs game calling then most teams. When I constantly hear simplified offense I don't like that....if it's really that easy the defense can figure it out.

See, this is where your bias is creeping in, because you have way too high of a football IQ to fall for this "simplified offense" crap.

They simplified the TERMINOLOGY. Period.

There's no reason to have a play call like:

Trips Right R-Swing 818 Zebra 2 Jet X Dagger Y Shallow Cross.

When you can call the exact same play with less verbiage.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:44 AM
Do you really have a desire to be like those coaches? How many times did they choke in the playoffs with the 1 or 2 seed? How many times?

Cowher got his win in the worst officiated Bowl I have ever seen and the Giants won because they had the best DL in the league.

Yeah, those weren't legimate wins...ROFL

How many times did Dungy choke having his team thrown the ball all over the yard before winning the big game?

Belichick is the exception, not the rule, and you know it.

RedThat
08-23-2008, 11:45 AM
Did you even read my post?

The year the Steelers won the SB - in which Roethlisberger played the entire year - they were 5th in rushing and 24th in passing.

And FWIW, MOST teams don't have a standout QB. Not to the level of a Manning or Brady.

I did read your post, and I was commenting on the first half of it.

*What is standout to you? If you want to go by the level of a Peyton Manning or a Tom Brady ok you're talking about the #1 and #2 QB's in the league.

To me standout can also be a good QB. He doesn't have to be excellent.

Good is Carson Palmer, Donovan McNabb, Matt Hasselbeck, Ben roethlishberger, Brett Favre, Tony Romo, Drew Brees. There are a handful of teams in the league with standout QB's.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:45 AM
Those teams play the "right" way based on the talent they have.

It's not a matter of right v. wrong, it's whatever puts your team in the best position to win.

You act like teams have never won before playing a smashmouth, clock-consuming, time of possession game.

It's been Pittsburgh's MO for 25 years, among others.

4 of the Top 5 rushing teams made the playoffs last year, and Minnesota just missed out. The SB Champs were #4.

4 of the Top 5 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs last year.

It's ridiculous to think that the only way to win in this league is to throw the ball all over the yard. 2 of the last 3 SB winners have shown that's not true.

The Giants were 4th in rushing, 21st in passing.

The Steelers were 5th in rushing, 24th in passing.

I believe this as well. I just hope we have/get a QB that can throw.

I think the "secret" in the NFL is to be able to adjust and play to your teams strength and cover the weaknesses. Or luck/with luck.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:46 AM
Getting ready for the game in Miami right now. Got seats on the 2nd row. So I'm gonna get a live impression of the guy. I'll post pics here tonight or tomorrow.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm complaining that I don't think he has any ability to adapt, yes you can win that way but you need to be able to adapt to win..I think from what I've seen here and with the Jets he's very stubborn.

Yeah, so stubborn that he went to the playoffs 3 times in 5 years, whipping your beloved Colts by 40 in the process...

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:48 AM
BTW I got seats on the second row lower level for $20 a piece LOL.

RedThat
08-23-2008, 11:48 AM
I guarantee you even if the Chiefs had elite offensive personnel all over the field he'd still wanna play this way.

We could have Brady and Moss and he'd wanna run it 30 times...

No way. No way

milkman
08-23-2008, 11:48 AM
Let's not forget that for all of Manning's success, the SB run they made was fueled by the ground game and the defense.

Manning had a pretty pedestrian playoffs.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 11:49 AM
Let's not forget that for all of Manning's success, the SB run they made was fueled by the ground game and the defense.

Manning had a pretty pedestrian playoffs.

WHAT?

You mean they didn't air it out for 400 yards a game?

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:49 AM
I guarantee you even if the Chiefs had elite offensive personnel all over the field he'd still wanna play this way.

We could have Brady and Moss and he'd wanna run it 30 times...

Magic 8 ball backed this up?

These type of post (that no one can prove right or wrong) is why many people perceive you as a downer IMO.

Cause I said so!

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:50 AM
Let's not forget that for all of Manning's success, the SB run they made was fueled by the ground game and the defense.

Manning had a pretty pedestrian playoffs.

But the game is set up so that the WRs can't be covered. How can that be?

Yep, the D set the tone for that run.

RedThat
08-23-2008, 11:52 AM
Let's not forget that for all of Manning's success, the SB run they made was fueled by the ground game and the defense.

Manning had a pretty pedestrian playoffs.

I am still amazed how the Colts won that year?

It is rare that a team wins a bowl with one of the worst rush defenses in the history of the league.

I think they were just fortunate to play the "bad" offenses in KC, Balt, and Chi. And the had the fire power to keep a boxing match going with the Pats. I guess if a team is meant to win, they're meant to win.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:53 AM
Do you really have a desire to be like those coaches? How many times did they choke in the playoffs with the 1 or 2 seed? How many times?

Cowher got his win in the worst officiated Bowl I have ever seen and the Giants won because they had the best DL in the league.

The odds should be our favor as a good seeded team?

http://scosoft.com/h/g/d1cfc8e.gif

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:54 AM
I'm complaining that I don't think he has any ability to adapt, yes you can win that way but you need to be able to adapt to win..I think from what I've seen here and with the Jets he's very stubborn.

I agree twice in the same day? I need a drink.
:doh!:

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 11:54 AM
I am still amazed how the Colts won that year?

It is rare that a team wins a bowl with one of the worst rush defenses in the history of the league.

I think they were just fortunate to play the "bad" offenses in KC, Balt, and Chi. And the had the fire power to keep a boxing match going with the Pats. I guess if a team is meant to win, they're meant to win.

The run D just stepped up. They kicked ass actually.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:57 AM
I agree, and I believe he will learn from everything they throw at him, and become a better QB because of It. It's going to be invaluable to him, when he changes a play, and finds out that the D was fooling him. That's development, and the reason why it's too early too judge him. Fortunately he's going to be tested by teams like the Pats early on. It probably will be ugly, but it's going to be a GREAT learning experience playing against those guys.


It might be called audible but i think of it more as options, at this point.

Shows he is improving or more faith, IMO.

milkman
08-23-2008, 11:59 AM
The run D just stepped up. They kicked ass actually.

Bob Sanders.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 11:59 AM
Getting ready for the game in Miami right now. Got seats on the 2nd row. So I'm gonna get a live impression of the guy. I'll post pics here tonight or tomorrow.

Bastage!

Enjoy and follow up.

I have a feeling it will be lights out tonight but we will see the it was Miami excuse tomorrow.

:doh!:

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 12:00 PM
It might be called audible but i think of it more as options, at this point.

Shows he is improving or more faith, IMO.

Yeah , just the option to opt out of the plays that we we're creaming for them not to run as we watched the safeties come up to within 10 yrds of the LOS.
If he learns alot, and does well with it, we could see him making full out audibles next season.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 12:02 PM
Bastage!

Enjoy and follow up.

I will. No doubt. I hope it doesn't rain too much. I want to take a ton of pics.

I'm going to try, and sneak to the visitors tunnel as well, and get some pics, and maybe, just maybe, Dorsey will sign my jersey.

FringeNC
08-23-2008, 12:03 PM
LOL.....ok this is what I'm going to say is my biggest problem with Herm and how he wants to do things. By the time you're on your 12th play unless you started at the 1 you should be in the endzone.

Wanting to run these ridiculous 15+ play drives to score and eat clock isn't wise, you know why? Usually when you run that many plays someone ****s up, whether that's a penalty you fail to convert on one of the many 3rd downs you see, the best teams in the league are usually around 48% on 3rd down conversations, or someone just frankly misses an assignment.

When you run that many plays drives generally will stall out because asking everyone to be on for that many plays in a row isn't wise. Especially with a team like this.

I also think it's an offensive gameplan and philosophy stuck in 1967 but that's another topic.

I agree. My hope is that Gailey knew full well of Herm's play-not-to-lose style, and has been given near complete over the offense. I think there is a chance he may have been -- Solari never had a chance, and a guy like Gailey who has had success before, and probably wants to be a HC again -- would he have agreed to work for Herm if Herm was going to allow him no chance for success? Edwards is buffoon. I am not convinced Gailey is, though.

Bearcat
08-23-2008, 12:04 PM
I agree with Mecca... I don't see Herm changing with the offensive talent. It's the one thing I've talked about for the past few years -- will he open it up once we have the talent to do so? Until he proves otherwise, I'll always point back to the Colts game last year when he shut it down after Croyle had just driven the team down for the TD. In the end, it was just another "defensive game we were trying to win on the final possession".

Regardless of how good you are, there will be games that come down to the last few possessions... and regardless of talent, Herm is going to choose to "have a chance to win" every freakin' time, which means we're always going to keep both teams in the game.

Yeah, so stubborn that he went to the playoffs 3 times in 5 years, whipping your beloved Colts by 40 in the process...

That was a "perfect Herm game"...

On the Jets' fifth offensive play, Pennington's screen pass floated into Richie Anderson's hands and he rambled down the left side for a 56-yard score.

Troy Walters then fumbled the kickoff and Ray Mickens pounced on it at the Indianapolis 39. Jordan eventually swept left from the 1 for a 17-point lead.

Manning was a miserable 14-for-31 for 137 yards and two interceptions, and his team had the ball for just 19:42 -- 7:44 in the second half.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 12:05 PM
I agree. My hope is that Gailey knew full well of Herm's play-not-to-lose style, and has been given near complete over the offense. I think there is a chance he may have been -- Solari never had a chance, and a guy like Gailey who has had success before, and probably wants to be a HC again -- would he have agreed to work for Herm if Herm was going to allow him no chance for success? Edwards is buffoon. I am not convinced Gailey is, though.

I don't think Gailey would come into a situation where Herm was not going to allow him to succeed. Let's hope.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:05 PM
But the game is set up so that the WRs can't be covered. How can that be?

Yep, the D set the tone for that run.

Yea the Manning didn't have a great playoffs.....but they got 2 breaks, 1 being the teams they got to face, they got teams like Baltimore and Chicago, they didn't need to be the juggernaut to win those.

The other thing is even with Manning not playing all that well no team would ever dare show them 8 in the box. Their run is effective because of years and years of the elite passing game.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:06 PM
I agree with Mecca... I don't see Herm changing with the offensive talent. It's the one thing I've talked about for the past few years -- will he open it up once we have the talent to do so? Until he proves otherwise, I'll always point back to the Colts game last year when he shut it down after Croyle had just driven the team down for the TD. In the end, it was just another "defensive game we were trying to win on the final possession".

Regardless of how good you are, there will be games that come down to the last few possessions... and regardless of talent, Herm is going to choose to "have a chance to win" every freakin' time, which means we're always going to keep both teams in the game.



That was a "perfect Herm game"...

When he first came here we for weeks listened to Herm talk about how Vermiel blowing out the Bengals was wrong and running up the score is wrong...

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 12:07 PM
The run sets up the pass or the pass sets up the run.

I think if you excel in either it sets up the other.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 12:08 PM
Yea the Manning didn't have a great playoffs.....but they got 2 breaks, 1 being the teams they got to face, they got teams like Baltimore and Chicago, they didn't need to be the juggernaut to win those.

The other thing is even with Manning not playing all that well no team would ever dare show them 8 in the box. Their run is effective because of years and years of the elite passing game.

That's true, and I think balance is the key to that. I believe that's what Chan is going to be shooting for. Balance, and unpredictable play calling.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:16 PM
See, this is where your bias is creeping in, because you have way too high of a football IQ to fall for this "simplified offense" crap.

They simplified the TERMINOLOGY. Period.

There's no reason to have a play call like:

Trips Right R-Swing 818 Zebra 2 Jet X Dagger Y Shallow Cross.

When you can call the exact same play with less verbiage.

Good question, Mr. Flopnuts.

Why is this so ****ing difficult for people to understand?

milkman
08-23-2008, 12:17 PM
Yea the Manning didn't have a great playoffs.....but they got 2 breaks, 1 being the teams they got to face, they got teams like Baltimore and Chicago, they didn't need to be the juggernaut to win those.

The other thing is even with Manning not playing all that well no team would ever dare show them 8 in the box. Their run is effective because of years and years of the elite passing game.


That's all true, but in previous years, the Pats blitzed Manning unmecifully, essentially daring the Colts to beat them on the ground.

They couldn't, and Manning couldn't make plays against a team that gameplanned to stop him.

milkman
08-23-2008, 12:18 PM
Good question, Mr. Flopnuts.

Why is this so ****ing difficult for people to understand?

Huh?

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:19 PM
That's all true, but in previous years, the Pats blitzed Manning unmecifully, essentially daring the Colts to beat them on the ground.

They couldn't, and Manning couldn't make plays against a team that gameplanned to stop him.

Alot of that came from the officials allowing the Pats to beat the **** out of their WR's down the field which the league even made sure to point out how they want that rule enforced after that game.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:23 PM
Huh?

He asked the question outside this thread, reponding to that particular post - since someone conveniently chose to gloss over it.

My post:

See, this is where your bias is creeping in, because you have way too high of a football IQ to fall for this "simplified offense" crap.

They simplified the TERMINOLOGY. Period.

There's no reason to have a play call like:

Trips Right R-Swing 818 Zebra 2 Jet X Dagger Y Shallow Cross.

When you can call the exact same play with less verbiage.


Flopnuts response:

Why is this so ****ing difficult for people to understand?



It's a good question. Why is it so difficult for people to understand?

milkman
08-23-2008, 12:23 PM
Alot of that came from the officials allowing the Pats to beat the **** out of their WR's down the field which the league even made sure to point out how they want that rule enforced after that game.

That just an excuse.

The Colts couldn't run the ball, and they didn't adapt to what the Pats were doing, and they did it to them more than one time.

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:24 PM
He asked the question outside this thread, reponding to that particular post - since someone conveniently chose to gloss over it.

My post:




Flopnuts response:





It's a good question. Why is it so difficult for people to understand?

People wonder how many different ways "run it up the middle" can actually be called?

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:25 PM
That just an excuse.

The Colts couldn't run the ball, and they didn't adapt to what the Pats were doing, and they did it to them more than one time.

This thread is full of excuses.

Indy had an easy road to their SB win, the Steelers had theirs gift-wrapped by the refs...

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:26 PM
This thread is full of excuses.

Indy had an easy road to their SB win, the Steelers had theirs gift-wrapped by the refs...

That's just true shit, pretty much anyone would agree that Pitt Bowl was horribly officiated....Seattle had their 2 most important plays on offense called back on penalties.

milkman
08-23-2008, 12:27 PM
People wonder how many different ways "run it up the middle" can actually be called?

There has to be thousands since Saunders playbook, the one used by Solari, is so thick it makes War and Peace look like a weekly newsrag by comparison.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:27 PM
People wonder how many different ways "run it up the middle" can actually be called?

Yeah, they've done a lot of that in the PS...

:rolleyes:

You must have missed some medication this morning, because your arguments are really weak today.

People are responding to you with stats and facts, and your replies are nothing more than excuses and childlike responses like this last one.

You're better than that.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:28 PM
That's just true shit, pretty much anyone would agree that Pitt Bowl was horribly officiated....Seattle had their 2 most important plays on offense called back on penalties.

TWO WHOLE PLAYS?

In a game with 60-80 plays?

Yeah, it was the refs fault...

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:29 PM
Yeah, they've done a lot of that in the PS...

:rolleyes:

You must have missed some medication this morning, because your arguments are really weak today.

People are responding to you with stats and facts, and your replies are nothing more than excuses and childlike responses like this last one.

You're better than that.

I should have used a smiley but I was being sarcastic and not serious with that one. I didn't intend that one to be serious I was going for a laugh.

Smed1065
08-23-2008, 12:29 PM
So was it poor calling or poor playing?

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:30 PM
I should have used a smiley but I was being sarcastic and not serious with that one.

I would hope so. You're starting to argue like....ah, nevermind. No sense in calling someone out who's not even in the thread.

:D

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 12:30 PM
Gotta run fellas.

Good debate as always...

Mecca
08-23-2008, 12:33 PM
I would hope so. You're starting to argue like....ah, nevermind. No sense in calling someone out who's not even in the thread.

:D

The only thing I'm really saying is I don't believe Herm is capable of adapting enough to ever win anything. I understand our players suck so even with perfect plays they may not work because the players can't execute them but I think even if we had great players Herm wouldn't take advantage of them on the offense side..

Of course a great offensive mind in Bill Walsh said offense is scheme and defense is talent. Which is why I sometimes wonder if those great 49ers players of the 80s were just products of being in a scheme that was ahead of the entire league at the time cause it was.....in some interviews he basically said his scheme was so good he didn't need talent, the scheme made the players..

And yes that includes Montana.

beach tribe
08-23-2008, 12:37 PM
TWO WHOLE PLAYS?

In a game with 60-80 plays?

Yeah, it was the refs fault...

I don't know what the point is that's trying to be made here. Seattle got to the Bowl with Defense, and a good running game anyway.

milkman
08-23-2008, 12:38 PM
The only thing I'm really saying is I don't believe Herm is capable of adapting enough to ever win anything. I understand our players suck so even with perfect plays they may not work because the players can't execute them but I think even if we had great players Herm wouldn't take advantage of them on the offense side..

Of course a great offensive mind in Bill Walsh said offense is scheme and defense is talent. Which is why I sometimes wonder if those great 49ers players of the 80s were just products of being in a scheme that was ahead of the entire league at the time cause it was.....in some interviews he basically said his scheme was so good he didn't need talent, the scheme made the players..

And yes that includes Montana.

Bill Walsh is full of shit.

His scheme didn't make Steve DeBerg a star.

Those guys were talented, and Bill Walsh gets a lot more credit fro creating a scheme than he deserves.

He just refined the short passing game of Sid Gillman's modern pro offense.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 04:40 PM
I don't know what the point is that's trying to be made here. Seattle got to the Bowl with Defense, and a good running game anyway.


Mecca was claiming that the reason the Seahags lost to Pittsburgh was having their 2 biggest plays brought back because of penalties.

To which I commented that those were just two plays out of 60-80.

Were there some bad calls in that game?

Sure.

It that the reason Seattle lost to Pittsburgh?

Absolutely not.

OnTheWarpath58
08-23-2008, 04:41 PM
Bill Walsh is full of shit.

His scheme didn't make Steve DeBerg a star.

Those guys were talented, and Bill Walsh gets a lot more credit fro creating a scheme than he deserves.

He just refined the short passing game of Sid Gillman's modern pro offense.

Agree, 100%