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FAX
08-24-2008, 09:40 PM
I have been reading the Planet off and on throughout the day in between cleaning the basement and making a pie. I must say, I'm happy to see so many Planeteers in such pretty doggone high spirits and to see the rest of you just pretty doggone high.

Anyhow, all these threads and posts and comments and swear words have caused me to think about something. And the something I thought of was this; "How can you tell if a team is in the process of rebuilding?" Before you call me a moron and a severly bent dipstick hopelessly jammed in the misfiring motor of life, here's what I mean ...

1. One might say you can tell because we're playing young players. Very true, I might reply, but how can you tell if the young players are going to be any good in the future? Flowers and Carr seem to be performing well of late so I suppose you can project good play from them in seasons to come, but maybe not. No one knows the future for certain.

2. One might say you can tell because we've installed a fabulous, new, simplified offense and the marvelously impregnable Tampa II defense. All well and good, I might respond, but just because you have new plays doesn't mean they're going to work.

3. One might say you can tell because Herm told you so. Very well, I might chortle as I urp up just a tad of grilled cheese sandwich and pickle. But, Herm has said many things that haven't exactly worked out to the letter and all.

4. One might say Carl is on his way out, and that's how you tell. Gotcha, I might mutter while I bang my head with a quart of spring water. But, Carl's contract is up soon anyhow. Who knows what's going to happen? He may be retire, be retired by Clarkie, or take a job giving Arrowhead tours and auditioning cheerleaders. It's kind of up in the air.

The point is that the term, "rebuilding" connotes creating something of value. And, since our performances to date have been questionable, it makes sense to call a time out, swig some ice cold gatorade, and evaluate our situation. Are we, in fact creating something worthwhile here? Or, in the alternative, are we simply watching a bad coach who is in over his head attempting to accomplish something that is beyond his ability to achieve?

In time, we will surely know, but a lot of people on the Planet are saying that other people on the Planet should chill out a lot and stuff because we are rebuilding. And, my question to those people is this; how can you tell after 3 pre-season games that we're watching a team in the process of a "rebuild" or actually watching one backsliding into total oblivion?

FAX

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.

boogblaster
08-24-2008, 09:46 PM
The youth-movement will piss most of us off at times ... but they have to suit-up and play too find out if they can or can't play at this level ...

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 09:50 PM
I believe the D-line could be viewed as a microcosm of what a rebuild is supposed to be. By that I mean this: Our starting D-line is comprised of two 1st rounders, one 2nd rounder, and 1 3rd rounder.

What this says to me is that we're not just throwing young players on the field for the sake of playing youngsters, but we're trotting out individuals whom we assume to be both young and very talented.

Rinse, repeat for the rest of the team. Obviously this is a slow process, but if the talent evaluators are worth a darn, this should be an ascending team. If it's not...epic fail and jobs will be lost at the coaching and managerial levels.

blueballs
08-24-2008, 09:57 PM
It's when the players salaries are cheap and way below the cap
so the owner can put that extra in an interest garnering account
to pay said players if they pan out

cdcox
08-24-2008, 09:57 PM
The leading indicators will be the 2006 draft class, followed by the 2007 draft class.

Are Tamba, Pollard, and Croyle ascending? By the 3rd year a player is probably 90% of what they ever will be, except for QBs.

Are Bowe, McBride, and Tyler showing progress? Too early to make any judgements, but McBride and Tyler should show a some progress over their rookie years.

Should have enough evidence of the direction Herm is taking the franchise by mid-season.

Cormac
08-24-2008, 09:58 PM
My own opinion:

Rebuilding is a euphemism. But we have to call it something. We're fanatics, right? Resucking doesn't really have a good ring to it.

The Chiefs current quandary is that Herm can actually (despite himself) draft talented players. But he couldn't coach ivy up a wall. So we run the risk of suffocating the very talent he brings in. I think the best case scenario would be to allow Herm to "coach" this season, and to run the draft next year and then fire him and bring in somebody useful to coach from then on.

cdcox
08-24-2008, 10:01 PM
My own opinion:

Rebuilding is a euphemism. But we have to call it something. We're fanatics, right? Resucking doesn't really have a good ring to it.

The Chiefs current quandary is that Herm can actually (despite himself) draft talented players. But he couldn't coach ivy up a wall. So we run the risk of suffocating the very talent he brings in. I think the best case scenario would be to allow Herm to "coach" this season, and to run the draft next year and then fire him and bring in somebody useful to coach from then on.

I'm not sold that Herm's drafting ability is any thing special.

bigbucks24
08-24-2008, 10:03 PM
Very entertaining, as always, Mr. Fax. To be up front, I am a Dolphin fan that lives in KC. We (Miami) have been using the term rebuilding for some time now. Each year we start over again, move out some of the old and bring in a new (Saban, Cameron and now Sparano). Each year we bring in young players and rebuild. For us, this year seems different. Maybe it was that we started at the top, with VP of football operations, GM and HC. Maybe it was Parcells (I am NOT a Tuna fan). Maybe it was that we finally gutted the roster (got rid of pro bowlers like Taylor and Thomas). Whatever it was, for the first time in years, I feel good about our direction. Even though KC is "rebuilding" I'm not sure I see the same optimism. I see some very good players and some reasons to feel good about the future (Hali, Dorsey, DJ, Flowers, Bowe), it just doesn’t seem like a real rebuild. Does it seem that way to you? Would it be different if you had started at the top, with Carl and Herm? Would it be different if you got rid of Surtain and Edwards and maybe LJ?

Hopefully it won’t take you guys as long to figure out how to rebuild as it did us. We’ve been lousy for awhile. And we won’t be good this year. I expect 4 or maybe 5 wins. But I feel like we at least have a direction.

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:04 PM
If I remember right, they said on the broadcast of the game Saturday that of the 83 on the roster, 50-something had 3 years or less in the league.

That's rebuilding, in my mind.

And yeah, of course there's no guarantee the young guys will be good. That's why you load up on them. Keep the keepers, dump the washouts, rinse and repeat.

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:07 PM
A rebuild is also what you tell your fans you're doing while insisting on keeping Ross Gload at first. Oh, wait...

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:10 PM
In time, we will surely know, but a lot of people on the Planet are saying that other people on the Planet should chill out a lot and stuff because we are rebuilding. And, my question to those people is this; how can you tell after 3 pre-season games that we're watching a team in the process of a "rebuild" or actually watching one backsliding into total oblivion?
The reverse is also true. It works both ways.

Zouk
08-24-2008, 10:10 PM
To me 6 wins is a key dividing line. If they get more than 6 wins we see where this is going and signs look good. Barring terrbile injuries, if they get less than 6 wins it will be fair to be skeptical of the direction of the program.

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:15 PM
A rebuild sure as heck isn't defined by wins and losses. That's why it will be interesting to see if folks are really prepared for what they've been "wanting" for years.

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:16 PM
To me 6 wins is a key dividing line. If they get more than 6 wins we see where this is going and signs look good. Barring terrbile injuries, if they get less than 6 wins it will be fair to be skeptical of the direction of the program.That's fair enough, I guess.

But as for me, I can't really put a number on it. I can imagine a scenario where we win less than six, yet I'd still feel alright about the direction of the franchise.

Say, for instance... Brody does prove to be a complete and total failure. Lots of young players could show well, while the season record is dismal.

Plug a worthy QB in, and you instantly have a much better team.

I'm not saying that's what I predict, but it's certainly possible.

It's not crazy to think the team might be improving, regardless of the win/loss record. Just trust your eyes... either way.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:16 PM
The leading indicators will be the 2006 draft class, followed by the 2007 draft class.

Are Tamba, Pollard, and Croyle ascending? By the 3rd year a player is probably 90% of what they ever will be, except for QBs.

Are Bowe, McBride, and Tyler showing progress? Too early to make any judgements, but McBride and Tyler should show a some progress over their rookie years.

Should have enough evidence of the direction Herm is taking the franchise by mid-season.

That means we're gonna see some big questions after this year because Hali and Pollard so far are looking like they are at best role players that may not even be worthy of starting.

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:16 PM
A rebuild sure as heck isn't defined by wins and losses. That's why it will be interesting to see if folks are really prepared for what they've been "wanting" for years.Exactly.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:17 PM
To me 6 wins is a key dividing line. If they get more than 6 wins we see where this is going and signs look good. Barring terrbile injuries, if they get less than 6 wins it will be fair to be skeptical of the direction of the program.

Well I suspect the win total is going to be closer to 3 than 6...

cdcox
08-24-2008, 10:19 PM
A rebuild sure as heck isn't defined by wins and losses. That's why it will be interesting to see if folks are really prepared for what they've been "wanting" for years.

I think FAX is trying to distinguish between a rebuild in progress and just continual sucking year after year, ala Detroit, Arizona, Oakland, et al.

Sooner or later it has to show up in the win column.

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:22 PM
I think FAX is trying to distinguish between a rebuild in progress and just continual sucking year after year, ala Detroit, Arizona, Oakland, et al.

Sooner or later it has to show up in the win column.Of course... and it's a fair question.

I know it's in bad form to quote yourself, but...

If I remember right, they said on the broadcast of the game Saturday that of the 83 on the roster, 50-something had 3 years or less in the league.

That's rebuilding, in my mind.

And yeah, of course there's no guarantee the young guys will be good. That's why you load up on them. Keep the keepers, dump the washouts, rinse and repeat.

Zouk
08-24-2008, 10:24 PM
It's not crazy to think the team might be improving, regardless of the win/loss record. Just trust your eyes... either way.

I think Bill Parcells has it right - you are what your record is. And losing becomes a habit. Herm will lose credibility with the players if the team is terrible again this year. Losing for draft picks is for the Detroit Lions and Arizona Cardinals of the world. Teams that have successfully rebuilt with youth have just about always surpassed expectations in the year when things looked bleakest in the preseason predictions.

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:25 PM
I think FAX is trying to distinguish between a rebuild in progress and just continual sucking year after year, ala Detroit, Arizona, Oakland, et al.

Sooner or later it has to show up in the win column.

Fair enough. How not to be the Royals...

Seeing as this is year two, I would consider this a moot point. Since we're breaking in a new QB, '09 should be the first time to be really worried about wins and losses. Still short on wins in year four and the rebuild has been a failure.

cdcox
08-24-2008, 10:25 PM
Of course... and it's a fair question.

I know it's in bad form to quote yourself, but...

I'm not expecting anything in the W-L column this year, but if we are really rebulding we need to see some big contributions from the 2006 and 2007 draft classes this year. If we see enough of that to save Herm's job, I'd expect to see improvement in the W-L column next year.

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:27 PM
I'm not expecting anything in the W-L column this year, but if we are really rebulding we need to see some big contributions from the 2006 and 2007 draft classes this year. If we see enough of that to save Herm's job, I'd expect to see improvement in the W-L column next year.Oh, no doubt. I agree.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:29 PM
Ok so what happens if the win loss record is worse, because that is very possible...

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:30 PM
Ok so what happens if the win loss record is worse, because that is very possible...Chiefsplanet will be furious. People will bitch and moan a lot? I dunno... :shrug:

I just don't think this season's W/L record means all that much.

Like Seedy said, next year, start looking for results. We've only just begun...

Just give these players the old eyeball test. Either you'll see hope for the future, or you wont.

(Insert 30 year plan post)

Zouk
08-24-2008, 10:32 PM
Ok so what happens if the win loss record is worse, because that is very possible...

If they win less than 4 Herm will be fired (the only possible exception is if there are many, many injuries to key players).

But I think your projection is both predictable and wrong.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:34 PM
Chiefsplanet will be furious. People will bitch and moan a lot? I dunno... :shrug:

I meant as far as in what people in this thread are saying, with things like "6 wins is the cut off" because I'd be utterly shocked if they won 6 games.

I personally don't know if we can develop a QB with Herm here, he is so worried about turnovers that I think by now he has beaten into Croyles head "don't turn the ball over!" that now he'll just take a 3 yard check down pass opposed to taking a shot down the field that risks a pick because Herm has essentially cut off the balls of the QB by how he wants to play the game.

Any QB unless they are a vet that ignores it is going to be stunted by this Herm style of ball. The best offensive teams take risks....Herm doesn't want any of that.

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:34 PM
If they win less than 4 Herm will be fired (the only possible exception is if there are many, many injuries to key players).

But I think your projection is both predictable and wrong.

It could easily be a repeat: 4-12.

What are you expecting?

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:35 PM
If they win less than 4 Herm will be fired (the only possible exception is if there are many, many injuries to key players).

But I think your projection is both predictable and wrong.

I said 5 games last year and had people jumping up and down telling me I was so far off and Herm and Carl would quit if the team was that bad.....

I'm being realistic as I always am and I say 2-5 games. Closer to 2 likely closer to 5 if some unexpected things happen.

Zouk
08-24-2008, 10:35 PM
It could easily be a repeat: 4-12.

What are you expecting?

I'm expecting 6 wins. More than 6 I'm happy. Less than 6 I'm not.

B_Ambuehl
08-24-2008, 10:36 PM
When a team gets rid of veterans in place of young players that's generally what I'd consider a rebuild.

Trent Green----->Brodie Croyle
Ty Law---------> Brandon Flowers
Eddie Kennison--> Dwayne Bowe

Where the Chiefs braintrust is making mistakes, and something someone like Parcells wouldn't do, is getting rid of players who aren't really "old" and who can still play before they have any legit prospects to take their place.

On this list include guys like Casey Wiegmann, Kawika Mitchell, Jared Allen, and maybe even Greg Wesley.

edit: And I can't believe I left Dante Hall off that list.

You could even include guys like Scanlon and Grigsby. None of these backups at linebacker are worth a shit and those were 2 of the better guys special teams coverage guys on the team - an area that has definitely taken a nosedive the past couple of years.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:37 PM
I'd love to know how they win 6 games with all those holes.....even if young players step up and guys are better than expected with no pass rush on defense and what the offense is how do you win 6 games?

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:38 PM
I'm expecting 6 wins. More than 6 I'm happy. Less than 6 I'm not.

I don't think you're going to be happy.

My preseason prediction was 5-11. But I'm starting to waffle on this. There's no way one could say with any certainty that this team will win a road game. Will they really go 5-3 at home?

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:39 PM
I meant as far as in what people in this thread are saying, with things like "6 wins is the cut off" because I'd be utterly shocked if they won 6 games.

I personally don't know if we can develop a QB with Herm here, he is so worried about turnovers that I think by now he has beaten into Croyles head "don't turn the ball over!" that now he'll just take a 3 yard check down pass opposed to taking a shot down the field that risks a pick because Herm has essentially cut off the balls of the QB by how he wants to play the game.

Any QB unless they are a vet that ignores it is going to be stunted by this Herm style of ball. The best offensive teams take risks....Herm doesn't want any of that.That's a good point. They seem to want to develop a young QB, but at the same time, they're stunting his growth.

I say, call plays like you would with a vet. Live or die with the kid, and let him learn from his mistakes. We've got nothing to lose.

Playing ultra conservative to eek out a couple more wins seems counter productive.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:39 PM
I don't think you're going to be happy.

My preseason prediction was 5-11. But I'm starting to waffle on this. There's no way one could say with any certainty that this team will win a road game. Will they really go 5-3 at home?

That was my call for last years team.......

Just go through the schedule and try to figure out what teams they can beat taking into account how bad the Chiefs usually are on the road especially with all the young guys...

It's not pretty. I think 3-13 is a safe prediction.

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:41 PM
That was my call for last years team.......

Just go through the schedule and try to figure out what teams they can beat taking into account how bad the Chiefs usually are on the road especially with all the young guys...

It's not pretty. I think 3-13 is a safe prediction.

The best chance is Atl. if Ryan is starting. Blitz the hell out of him and hope he wets his pants. Aside from this, I don't think there's a road win on the schedule. Oak? Not the way this team plays the run.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:41 PM
That's a good point. They seem to want to develop a young QB, but at the same time, they're stunting his growth.

I say, call plays like you would with a vet. Live or die with the kid, and let him learn from his mistakes. We've got nothing to lose.

Playing ultra conservative to eek out a couple more wins seems counter productive.

Herm would rather have a game manager like Chad Pennington than a great QB...because he wouldn't know how to use a great QB. He just wants to run the ball pass here and there eat the clock and play some D.

Like I said before stuck in 1967 and this is not how you develop a QB either, I fully believe Croyle plays scared, scared that if he makes a mistake and turns the ball over he'll get benched.

Zouk
08-24-2008, 10:41 PM
I'd love to know how they win 6 games with all those holes.....even if young players step up and guys are better than expected with no pass rush on defense and what the offense is how do you win 6 games?

They only way they do it is by running the football (I think Jamaal Charles will be a much bigger factor than people think), winning the turnover battle, avoiding penalties, playing field position ball, and being a borderline top 10 defense. Anyone who looks at this roster knows they sure as hell ain't going to do it with their passing game, not that it's going to stop people from bitching that they don't throw enough.

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:42 PM
The best chance is Atl. if Ryan is starting. Blitz the hell out of him and hope he wets his pants. Aside from this, I don't think there's a road win on the schedule. Oak? Not the way this team plays the run.

With this teams front 7 I have a scary thought of seeing guys blitz and no one getting through...

Mecca
08-24-2008, 10:43 PM
They only way they do it is by running the football (I think Jamaal Charles will be a much bigger factor than people think), winning the turnover battle, avoiding penalties, playing field position ball, and being a borderline top 10 defense. Anyone who looks at this roster knows they sure as hell ain't going to do it with their passing game, not that it's going to stop people from bitching that they don't throw enough.

If they're a top 10 defense I'll eat my shoes for dinner.....you can't be a top 10 defense without a pass rush. You don't trade your best D player and improve, you just don't.

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 10:46 PM
With this teams front 7 I have a scary thought of seeing guys blitz and no one getting through...

Yeah and that might well happen. Pick your poison I guess. I guess I'd rather lose being aggressive than sitting back in a soft zone and being Wes Welkered down the field.

FAX
08-24-2008, 10:53 PM
Hmmm. Thanks, guys. So, it appears that the litmus test for a "rebuilding" team is the number of young players on the field. You know, I think that's fascinating. Because, I mean, you could construct an almost completely new team over the course of a few years through FA and trades (a la Wine Boy) and have a suck team for awhile that, eventually, improves dramatically. I assume, from these comments, that approach would not, however, be considered "rebuilding".

For the record, I have all the patience in the world when it comes to the Chiefs. Frankly, what choice do I have? And, truthfully, I've had a lot of time to practice patience while waiting for them to gather their sh*t together. However, it seems to me that the term, "rebuilding" is just a word - but a pretty powerful one that's currently being used by some Planeteers as a means to justify poor play by young players. It goes without saying that all Chiefs fans sincerely hope that the team will improve, that some of these young guys will someday ascend to HOF status, and we will win a playoff game before Nibiru returns. The difficulty I have right now is that I honestly can't tell the difference between our team in its current "rebuilding" stage and a team that sucks the lowly, flaccid weenie of fate. The only difference is that when you remind yourself that we're "rebuilding", you tend to balance our poor play with hope that things will improve with time.

All in all, it sounds like we won't know actually whether or not we're "rebuilding" from the standpoint of creating value for several years. I can wait.

FAX

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 10:58 PM
Hmmm. Thanks, guys. So, it appears that the litmus test for a "rebuilding" team is the number of young players on the field. You know, I think that's fascinating. Because, I mean, you could construct an almost completely new team over the course of a few years through FA and trades (a la Wine Boy) and have a suck team for awhile that, eventually, improves dramatically. I assume, from these comments, that approach would not, however, be considered "rebuilding".

For the record, I have all the patience in the world when it comes to the Chiefs. Frankly, what choice do I have? And, truthfully, I've had a lot of time to practice patience while waiting for them to gather their sh*t together. However, it seems to me that the term, "rebuilding" is just a word - but a pretty powerful one that's currently being used by some Planeteers as a means to justify poor play by young players. It goes without saying that all Chiefs fans sincerely hope that the team will improve, that some of these young guys will someday ascend to HOF status, and we will win a playoff game before Nibiru returns. The difficulty I have right now is that I honestly can't tell the difference between our team in its current "rebuilding" stage and a team that sucks the lowly, flaccid weenie of fate. The only difference is that when you remind yourself that we're "rebuilding", you tend to balance our poor play with hope that things will improve with time.

All in all, it sounds like we won't know actually whether or not we're "rebuilding" from the standpoint of creating value for several years. I can wait.

FAXHmm.. They've tried the veteran free agent thing for years, and years. They've just recently begun the youth movement thing. I guess I'm willing to give that a little time.

With all due respect, Mr. FAX, what would you have them do?

(Don't say "Win", too obvious. :p)

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 11:00 PM
With all due respect, Mr. FAX, what would you have them do?
Perhaps what you want, is for different people to do "it".

If so, fair enough. Completely understandable.

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:00 PM
When a team gets rid of veterans in place of young players that's generally what I'd consider a rebuild.

Trent Green----->Brodie Croyle
Ty Law---------> Brandon Flowers
Eddie Kennison--> Dwayne Bowe

Where the Chiefs braintrust is making mistakes, and something someone like Parcells wouldn't do, is getting rid of players who aren't really "old" and who can still play before they have any legit prospects to take their place.

On this list include guys like Casey Wiegmann, Kawika Mitchell, Jared Allen, and maybe even Greg Wesley.

The thing is though, Mr. B_Ambuehl, had our drafts over the last 20 years not rivaled the quality of Satan's dingleberry dip recipe, we wouldn't have to be so aggressive in the old "rebuild" department. I suppose that's the main thing, in this case. Our "rebuild" is extraordinary and somewhat unusual due to the fact we're basically starting from scratch across the board, and doing so via the draft vs. veteran acquisitions.

FAX

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 11:01 PM
The thing is though, Mr. B_Ambuehl, had our drafts over the last 20 years not rivaled the quality of Satan's dingleberry dip recipe, we wouldn't have to be so aggressive in the old "rebuild" department. I suppose that's the main thing, in this case. Our "rebuild" is extraordinary and somewhat unusual due to the fact we're basically starting from scratch across the board, and doing so via the draft vs. veteran acquisitions.

FAXYou prefer going the free agent route?

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:06 PM
Hmm.. They've tried the veteran free agent thing for years, and years. They've just recently begun the youth movement thing. I guess I'm willing to give that a little time.

With all due respect, Mr. FAX, what would you have them do?

(Don't say "Win", too obvious. :p)

Oh, I'm good with this approach, Mr. KcMizzou. I've said so and I'm sticking to my guns. I just don't know how one can realistically tell whether or not we're a "rebuild" in process or a bad team with a bad coach. I mean, the results on the field are pretty much identical - one to the other.

Here's the thing ... we can spend the next 2 or 3 seasons "rebuilding" under Hermoine and things work out great as the young guys gain experience and are coached up to their potential. Or ... we could find out that Herm has bitten off far more than he can chew and we wind up starting this process all over again in a few years. I'm looking for a way to evaluate that difference as early as possible, that's all.

FAX

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 11:06 PM
The thing is though, Mr. B_Ambuehl, had our drafts over the last 20 years not rivaled the quality of Satan's dingleberry dip recipe, we wouldn't have to be so aggressive in the old "rebuild" department. I suppose that's the main thing, in this case. Our "rebuild" is extraordinary and somewhat unusual due to the fact we're basically starting from scratch across the board, and doing so via the draft vs. veteran acquisitions.

FAX

I know this is probably unbelievably unfair, but I put a lot of this at Grandpa's feet. I say Grandpa b/c it's clear that Carl handed much of the control of the team to his idol, though this doesn't excuse Carl himself from the mess.

Anyway, LJ couldn't get on the field for the Grandpa-led Chiefs, a player that will likely soon become the all-time leading rusher for this franchise. I know, I know, the Priest was here, but that one-two punch would have really sucked...

Couple the resistance to play young guys with a complete inability to identify talent and mix in a pinch of too much trust in the wrong folks and you get the magic wonderfulness that is the current Chiefs franchise.

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:07 PM
You prefer going the free agent route?

Simmah!!! Give a guy a minute to post something, Mr. KcMizzou. I'm not a posting machine, you know. I don't just hammer out posts willy nilly rapid fire katy bar the door the skunks are on a rampage, peep.

Geez.

FAX

CosmicPal
08-24-2008, 11:09 PM
You bake pies?

DeezNutz
08-24-2008, 11:10 PM
Simmah!!! Give a guy a minute to post something, Mr. KcMizzou. I'm not a posting machine, you know. I don't just hammer out posts willy nilly rapid fire katy bar the door the skunks are on a rampage, peep.

Geez.

FAX

Code for I was gawking at the chick with her pants at half-mast.

Baconeater
08-24-2008, 11:13 PM
I guess the way I see it is if at the end of the year we're still sucking as bad as we sucked at the beginning of the year then we're not rebuilding, we're just sucking. Although sucking less than we sucked last night shouldn't be that hard to accomplish. Lucky for Herm he's setting the sucking bar pretty low for himself.

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:14 PM
You bake pies?

Yep. I made a peach pie the last time. That was difficult because you have to peel the peaches and stuff - although the filling is pretty basic. This weekend it's cherry, Mr. CosmicPal. Cherry is very easy because I just use canned cherries. I've been perfecting a pie crust for years. Still working on it. It's a very simple recipe, but the ratio of ingredients, mixing temperature, and baking time are both critical and sensitive for excellent results. I like nothing more than fresh, homemade, warm pie and a scoop of real vanilla ice cream on a summer evening.

FAX

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 11:14 PM
Simmah!!! Give a guy a minute to post something, Mr. KcMizzou. I'm not a posting machine, you know. I don't just hammer out posts willy nilly rapid fire katy bar the door the skunks are on a rampage, peep.

Geez.

FAXLMAO

Sorry.

CosmicPal
08-24-2008, 11:18 PM
Yep. I made a peach pie the last time. That was difficult because you have to peel the peaches and stuff - although the filling is pretty basic. This weekend it's cherry, Mr. CosmicPal. Cherry is very easy because I just use canned cherries. I've been perfecting a pie crust for years. Still working on it. It's a very simple recipe, but the ratio of ingredients, mixing temperature, and baking time are both critical and sensitive for excellent results. I like nothing more than fresh, homemade, warm pie and a scoop of real vanilla ice cream on a summer evening.

FAX

That is so cool. :thumb:

Seriously...good for you. I was watching the Food Channel not too long ago about some gal who makes these monster pies and is making a killing doing so. She pretty much described the process as you did and that it's really not all that difficult once you get the crust down.

Cormac
08-24-2008, 11:19 PM
I'm not sold that Herm's drafting ability is any thing special.

You may very well be right. I don't have a lot to go on, except it seems popular opinion and he is actually playing the youngsters. That gives the impression that they must be useful but only time will tell. If he proves that he can't draft either, then he has nothing going for him, IMO.

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:30 PM
LMAO

Sorry.

It's okay, Mr. KcMizzou. I understand. We all want answers.

FAX

KcMizzou
08-24-2008, 11:31 PM
It's okay, Mr. KcMizzou. I understand. We all want answers.

FAXUnfortunately I do have the time to fire off posts all willy nilly.

Ari Chi3fs
08-24-2008, 11:34 PM
I have been reading the Planet off and on throughout the day in between cleaning the basement and making a pie. I must say, I'm happy to see so many Planeteers in such pretty doggone high spirits and to see the rest of you just pretty doggone high.

Anyhow, all these threads and posts and comments and swear words have caused me to think about something. And the something I thought of was this; "How can you tell if a team is in the process of rebuilding?" Before you call me a moron and a severly bent dipstick hopelessly jammed in the misfiring motor of life, here's what I mean ...

1. One might say you can tell because we're playing young players. Very true, I might reply, but how can you tell if the young players are going to be any good in the future? Flowers and Carr seem to be performing well of late so I suppose you can project good play from them in seasons to come, but maybe not. No one knows the future for certain.

2. One might say you can tell because we've installed a fabulous, new, simplified offense and the marvelously impregnable Tampa II defense. All well and good, I might respond, but just because you have new plays doesn't mean they're going to work.

3. One might say you can tell because Herm told you so. Very well, I might chortle as I urp up just a tad of grilled cheese sandwich and pickle. But, Herm has said many things that haven't exactly worked out to the letter and all.

4. One might say Carl is on his way out, and that's how you tell. Gotcha, I might mutter while I bang my head with a quart of spring water. But, Carl's contract is up soon anyhow. Who knows what's going to happen? He may be retire, be retired by Clarkie, or take a job giving Arrowhead tours and auditioning cheerleaders. It's kind of up in the air.

The point is that the term, "rebuilding" connotes creating something of value. And, since our performances to date have been questionable, it makes sense to call a time out, swig some ice cold gatorade, and evaluate our situation. Are we, in fact creating something worthwhile here? Or, in the alternative, are we simply watching a bad coach who is in over his head attempting to accomplish something that is beyond his ability to achieve?

In time, we will surely know, but a lot of people on the Planet are saying that other people on the Planet should chill out a lot and stuff because we are rebuilding. And, my question to those people is this; how can you tell after 3 pre-season games that we're watching a team in the process of a "rebuild" or actually watching one backsliding into total oblivion?

FAX

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.


is there a Cliff's notes for this?

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:35 PM
That is so cool. :thumb:

Seriously...good for you. I was watching the Food Channel not too long ago about some gal who makes these monster pies and is making a killing doing so. She pretty much described the process as you did and that it's really not all that difficult once you get the crust down.

Yeah, it really isn't that hard, Mr. CosmicPal. Anybody can do it. The actual pie making takes, maybe, 30 minutes and you bake it for about an hour (a little less). I've made all kinds of fruit pies. I think my favorite is rhubarb (sp?). The beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX doesn't like rhubarb, though, so I usually make something else.

The crust is the most difficult part. Again, the actual recipe is very simple - flour, salt, water, and shortning. The thing is that, when you mix up the pastry dough, the temperature of the dough has to be exactly right or it will come out wrong. Having said that, wrong isn't bad because even pie crust that isn't perfect is pretty darn good.

FAX

FAX
08-24-2008, 11:36 PM
is there a Cliff's notes for this?

I wish. Unfortunately, you have to read the whole thing to get the message, Mr. Ari Chi3fs. It's allegory.

FAX

cdcox
08-25-2008, 12:21 AM
Yep. I made a peach pie the last time. That was difficult because you have to peel the peaches and stuff - although the filling is pretty basic. This weekend it's cherry, Mr. CosmicPal. Cherry is very easy because I just use canned cherries. I've been perfecting a pie crust for years. Still working on it. It's a very simple recipe, but the ratio of ingredients, mixing temperature, and baking time are both critical and sensitive for excellent results. I like nothing more than fresh, homemade, warm pie and a scoop of real vanilla ice cream on a summer evening.

FAX

Do you ever make rhubarb pie? I'm a big fan but I never make it because I'm pretty sure my family wouldn't like it. I made a lot of apple pies over the years, but the last few I've been limited to pumpkin pie at thanksgiving.

KcMizzou
08-25-2008, 12:25 AM
Do you ever make rhubarb pie? I'm a big fan but I never make it because I'm pretty sure my family wouldn't like it. I made a lot of apple pies over the years, but the last few I've been limited to pumpkin pie at thanksgiving.He mentioned that it was his favorite a few posts back.

I've only had the strawberry/rhubarb mix. I loved it, though. I like the tart, sour twang. I can see how lots of people wouldn't though. It's different.

FAX
08-25-2008, 12:49 AM
Rhubarb (sp?) is, by far, my favorite pie of all times, Mr. cdcox. Mr. KcMizzou is right - it's the blend of sweetness and sour tang that gives you that elusive, one-of-a-kind pie high. Kind of like gooseberry. I can't find any good gooseberrys around here, though. The only ones they have are frozen and they're kind of tough. You should try a regular rhubarb pie, Mr. KcMizzou. I've had the strawberry/rhubarb combination and the rhubarb is superior, in my opinion.

My last peach pie was excellent. Very easy except for the hard part which was peeling all the peaches. Just slam some peaches, flour, cinnamon, butter, and sugar together for the filling. We happened upon some very nice peaches and that pie was to die for.

FAX

ChiefsCountry
08-25-2008, 12:52 AM
Rhubarb pie is amazing. Sweet and sour and heaven all in one bite.

cookster50
08-25-2008, 07:04 AM
To me 6 wins is a key dividing line. If they get more than 6 wins we see where this is going and signs look good. Barring terrbile injuries, if they get less than 6 wins it will be fair to be skeptical of the direction of the program.

?????? I think this is the first post I've ever seen of Zouk's that wasn't praising the awesomeness of Herm. Perhaps you really are not Mrs. Edwards.........

HemiEd
08-25-2008, 09:28 AM
If I remember right, they said on the broadcast of the game Saturday that of the 83 on the roster, 50-something had 3 years or less in the league.

That's rebuilding, in my mind.

And yeah, of course there's no guarantee the young guys will be good. That's why you load up on them. Keep the keepers, dump the washouts, rinse and repeat.

Then once you get them, there is that whole "gotta learn how to win" thing.

Skip Towne
08-25-2008, 09:37 AM
Then once you get them, there is that whole "gotta learn how to win" thing.

And they gotta learn it from a HC with a losing record.

HemiEd
08-25-2008, 09:43 AM
And they gotta learn it from a HC with a losing record.

Yep, can you say Dejavue? (sp?)

kregger
08-25-2008, 09:56 AM
Kind of like gooseberry. I can't find any good gooseberrys around here, though.
FAX

Ahh, Mr. FAX, you have hit upon my all-time favorite pie. I used to have a lady at work whose husband was a big gooseberry fan. She told me it was almost impossible to find fresh gooseberries to sate his pie needs. I stumbled upon a stall at the local farmer's market that had fresh, ripe gooseberries and bought enough for her to make two large pies, one for her husband and one for me. I can remember waiting for days to taste that loveliest of creations and when finally delivered, it met every expectation of the perfect pie.
Sad to say, but they have relocated to Iowa and I fear that I shall never again taste a pie so fair.
Oh, as to your original question, a rebuild to me is exactly what they seem to be doing. The defense is a little further along as the front 4 seem to be getting closer to being a force. I personally would move Hali back to the right and try Turk on the left. With the addition of Albert and the emergence of Niswanger at center, the offensive front is starting to resemble a youthful, albeit inexperienced change that was sorely needed. The glaring hole is the right side that can hopefully be addressed during next year's draft. DAMN Carl for ever letting John Tait escape.
To end, you must develop a strong team from the lines out and I believe Herm is attempting to do just that.

Chiefnj2
08-25-2008, 09:57 AM
If Herm is the good coach and talent evaluator that some seem to think then the defense should be a top 10 defense by the end of this year.

That was the area that Herm focussed on when he came to KC. That is the area where he acquired his free agents. That is the area where he brought in his own assistant coordinators. That is the area where he has focussed his draft picks.

It's time for the defense to step up.

HemiEd
08-25-2008, 10:32 AM
If Herm is the good coach and talent evaluator that some seem to think then the defense should be a top 10 defense by the end of this year.

That was the area that Herm focussed on when he came to KC. That is the area where he acquired his free agents. That is the area where he brought in his own assistant coordinators. That is the area where he has focussed his draft picks.

It's time for the defense to step up.

Yeah, and the LB group should be all studs this year, because Gunther has personally seen to it, that they are properly coached.

L.A. Chieffan
08-25-2008, 10:59 AM
Why doesn't Mr. FAX write for The Star?

cookster50
08-25-2008, 11:02 AM
Why doesn't Mr. FAX write for The Star?

Because The Star would have to write for Mr. FAX

keg in kc
08-25-2008, 11:09 AM
Rebuilding is a risky proposition, there's no guarantee it's going to work. That's why more conservative GMs (i.e. Carl) avoid it like the plague in favor of the safer veteran route. We might well be better off now if he'd let the process begin in earnest in 2006 or 2007 rather than trying to keep the ship afloat for two years.

One sure-fire way to identify it is inconsistency. There's going to be weeks where the Chiefs look like world-beaters, and then there's going to be games like Miami. What you hope to see is a gradual evening-out and a team that's playing consistently well by week 12. The team will never say it, but 2008 has always been about getting better so they can be competitive in 2009. That doesn't mean they can't or won't compete this year, sometimes teams do surprise, but it's more about building for the future, and I think much of the fan base is going to have trouble dealing with that.

Reerun_KC
08-25-2008, 11:13 AM
That's a good point. They seem to want to develop a young QB, but at the same time, they're stunting his growth.

I say, call plays like you would with a vet. Live or die with the kid, and let him learn from his mistakes. We've got nothing to lose.

Playing ultra conservative to eek out a couple more wins seems counter productive.
:thumb:

FAX
10-05-2008, 02:18 PM
I wonder if anyone would care to revise and amend their remarks on the question. I'm not so sure this can accurately be described as "rebuilding" anymore. Although it is true that a young team can look good one week and break your heart the next, any reasonable person must admit that our veterans are playing like crap and our coaching is questionable, as well. This is looking a whole lot like a big pile of croc crap, to me.

FAX

The Bad Guy
10-05-2008, 02:22 PM
I wonder if anyone would care to revise and amend their remarks on the question. I'm not so sure this can accurately be described as "rebuilding" anymore. Although it is true that a young team can look good one week and break your heart the next, any reasonable person must admit that our veterans are playing like crap and our coaching is questionable, as well. This is looking a whole lot like a big pile of croc crap, to me.

FAX

Rebuilding is a term used as an excuse for losing with Herm. Herm supporters will tell you we are rebuilding, but this team takes one step forward and then takes 5 steps back. That is not rebuilding, that is regressing.

You can not properly rebuild without a QB either.

You want to see a proper rebuild? Watch the Dolphins or Falcons.

PastorMikH
10-05-2008, 02:25 PM
We are in the first stage of rebuilding. You know, the stage where you have a really bad coach for 4-5 years who tanks so bad for so long that the team has a surplus of high draft pick talent. Then, you fire that coach and hire one who can take that talent and make a team out of them.

C'mon step #2!!!

bobbything
10-05-2008, 02:33 PM
I'm not so sure this can accurately be described as "rebuilding" anymore.
We're not rebuilding if in 12+ games we don't see improvement. We gave up 400 yards of offense last week. Yes, we forced turnovers but that's not something I'd like to hang my hat on. You can't count on that. I'd rather see a stingy defense.

The bend-but-don't-break defense doesn't work. I don't really see much improvement. Our safeties are dumb and our line doesn't get any pressure.

RedNeckRaider
10-05-2008, 02:34 PM
We are in the first stage of rebuilding. You know, the stage where you have a really bad coach for 4-5 years who tanks so bad for so long that the team has a surplus of high draft pick talent. Then, you fire that coach and hire one who can take that talent and make a team out of them.

C'mon step #2!!!
Well Oakland is using that method year six with the difference of using several coaches. :cuss:

PastorMikH
10-05-2008, 02:38 PM
Well Oakland is using that method year six with the difference of using several coaches. :cuss:


Al's a stud. Most owners would messed up by now and hired to good coach to soon by accident. Here's to Al being able to pick the right coaches for draft picks.

:thumb:

RedNeckRaider
10-05-2008, 02:56 PM
Al's a stud. Most owners would messed up by now and hired to good coach to soon by accident. Here's to Al being able to pick the right coaches for draft picks.

:thumb:

He was once a stud! The only owner not born into wealth, starting out as a scout then a assistant coach then head coach. He was the commissioner of the AFL and the owner of a team that has won multiple championships and played in some of the greatest games in AFL/NFL history. Sadly he has become a modern day Howard Hughes and a shell of his former self