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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Putin accuses U.S. of orchestrating Georgian war


Redrum_69
08-28-2008, 11:09 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/28/russia.georgia.cold.war/index.html


SOCHI, Russia (CNN) -- Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the United States of orchestrating the conflict in Georgia to benefit one of its presidential election candidates.


Russian PM Vladimir Putin has accused the U.S. of orchestrating the conflict in Georgia.

Putin said the U.S. had encouraged Georgia to attack the autonomous region of South Ossetia.

Putin told CNN his defense officials had told him it was done to benefit a presidential candidate -- Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama are competing to succeed George W. Bush -- although he presented no evidence to back it up.

"U.S. citizens were indeed in the area in conflict," Putin said. "They were acting in implementing those orders doing as they were ordered, and the only one who can give such orders is their leader." Watch Putin accuse the United States »

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino blasted Putin's statements, saying they were "patently false."

"To suggest that the United States orchestrated this on behalf of a political candidate just sounds not rational," she said.

U.S. State Department deputy spokesman Robert Wood concurred, and labeled Putin's statements as "ludicrous."

"Russia is responsible for the crisis," Wood said in an off-camera meeting with reporters in Washington on Thursday. "For the Russians to say they are not responsible for what happened in Georgia is ludicrous. ... Russia is to blame for this crisis and the world is responding to what Russia has done."

When told that many diplomats in the United States and Europe blame Russia for provoking the conflict and for invading Georgia, Putin said Russia had no choice but to invade Georgia after dozens of its peacekeepers in South Ossetia were killed. He told Chance it was to avert a human calamity. iReport.com: First-person accounts from the center of the conflict

The former Russian president, still considered the most powerful man in the country, said he was disappointed the U.S. had not done more to stop Georgia's attack.

Putin recalled he was watching the situation in Georgia and South Ossetia unfold when he was at the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympic Games on August 8.

He said he spoke to U.S. President George W. Bush, also attending, who told the Russian prime minister he didn't want war -- but Putin spoke to CNN of his disappointment that the U.S. administration didn't do more to stop Georgia early in the conflict.

Also Thursday Putin announced economic measures which he said were unrelated to the fighting with Georgia. Nineteen U.S. poultry meat companies would be banned from exporting their products to Russia because they had failed health and safety tests, and 29 other companies had been warned to improve their standards or face the same ban, Putin said.

Putin said Russia's health and agricultural ministries had randomly tested the poultry products and found them to be full of antibiotics and arsenic.

While Putin repeated that the bans were not related to the Georgian conflict, they indicate the measures some Western countries -- particularly in Europe -- fear if Russia goes on a diplomatic offensive. Watch analysis of Russia's relationship with the West. »

Russia is trying to counterbalance mounting pressure from the West over its military action in Georgia and its recognition of the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

But Russia's hopes of winning international support for its actions in Georgia were dashed Thursday, when China and other Asian nations expressed concern about tension in the region.

The joint declaration from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), which includes China, Russia, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan, said the countries hoped any further conflict could be resolved peacefully. Watch more on rising tensions between Russia and the West. »

"The presidents reaffirmed their commitment to the principles of respect for historic and cultural traditions of every country and efforts aimed at preserving the unity of a state and its territorial integrity," the declaration said, The Associated Press reported.

"Placing the emphasis exclusively on the use of force has no prospects and hinders a comprehensive settlement of local conflicts," AP reported the group as saying.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had appealed to the SCO at a summit in Tajikistan Thursday to support its actions, saying it would serve as a "serious signal for those who are trying to justify the aggression." Watch Medvedev explain his reasoning to CNN »


On Wednesday a U.S. ship carrying aid docked in Georgia, while Britain's Foreign Secretary David Miliband traveled to the Ukraine, which is worried about Russia's intentions in the region, to offer the UK's support.

Miliband equated Moscow's offensive in Georgia with the Soviet tanks that invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring democratic reforms in 1968, and demanded Russia "change course," AP

Mr. Kotter
08-28-2008, 11:11 AM
ROFL

clemensol
08-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Putin is nuts...

but I do hold the Bush administration somewhat responsible for the war

Chiefnj2
08-28-2008, 11:29 AM
"Nineteen U.S. poultry meat companies would be banned from exporting their products to Russia because they had failed health and safety tests, and 29 other companies had been warned to improve their standards or face the same ban, Putin said.

Putin said Russia's health and agricultural ministries had randomly tested the poultry products and found them to be full of antibiotics and arsenic."

Interesting.

oldandslow
08-28-2008, 11:30 AM
But George the lesser did see "inside Putin's soul."

StcChief
08-28-2008, 11:31 AM
Right...sure. Putin's tanks soldiers........... on their soil unprovoked.

StcChief
08-28-2008, 11:32 AM
"Nineteen U.S. poultry meat companies would be banned from exporting their products to Russia because they had failed health and safety tests, and 29 other companies had been warned to improve their standards or face the same ban, Putin said.

Putin said Russia's health and agricultural ministries had randomly tested the poultry products and found them to be full of antibiotics and arsenic."

Interesting.that they injected.

Ari Chi3fs
08-28-2008, 11:33 AM
"Nineteen U.S. poultry meat companies would be banned from exporting their products to Russia because they had failed health and safety tests, and 29 other companies had been warned to improve their standards or face the same ban, Putin said.

Putin said Russia's health and agricultural ministries had randomly tested the poultry products and found them to be full of antibiotics and arsenic."

Interesting.

This makes their poultry "Codex Alimentarius" compliant. This shouldn't be a surprise.

Chiefnj2
08-28-2008, 11:39 AM
I guess this is old news. They were blaming the US weeks ago:

The USA is responsible for the genocide of the Ossetian people along with Georgia,” Eduard Kokoity, the president of South Ossetia said to journalists on August 14. “The American government is responsible for the genocide of the Ossetian people not less than Georgia is, and it must pay for it,” said Kokoity, adding that the last actions of the Bush administration just confirmed this conviction.

clemensol
08-28-2008, 12:09 PM
Right...sure. Putin's tanks soldiers........... on their soil unprovoked.

Meh... Georgia would have never broken their agreements with South Ossetia had their military not been equipped and trained by the US in exchange for their support in Iraq. Instead we support a racist, semi-autocratic government in exchange for the ability to pretend we have allies in Iraq. Not supporting the way Russia responded, but had we not given support to the Georgian military there would've been no war.

oldandslow
08-28-2008, 12:16 PM
Kotter's right...

It is laughable....

until one remembers Russia owns 25,000 nuclear weapons pointed at US cities.

patteeu
08-28-2008, 01:07 PM
Meh... Georgia would have never broken their agreements with South Ossetia had their military not been equipped and trained by the US in exchange for their support in Iraq. Instead we support a racist, semi-autocratic government in exchange for the ability to pretend we have allies in Iraq. Not supporting the way Russia responded, but had we not given support to the Georgian military there would've been no war.

Why shouldn't we be giving support to the Georgian military? I mean, I get that the Ron Paul people want to pull up into a shell and end all foreign aid, but aside from that argument and the realpolitik argument that we might offend the Russians, is there a good argument for not helping Georgia?

BucEyedPea
08-28-2008, 01:14 PM
Why shouldn't we be giving support to the Georgian military? I mean, I get that the Ron Paul people want to pull up into a shell and end all foreign aid, but aside from that argument and the realpolitik argument that we might offend the Russians, is there a good argument for not helping Georgia?

If this is to help Mac, I'd say it would backfire...it puts me back considering Obama.

Putin is right we were involved in this, in fact our hands were all over it...covertly. There's been other reports of it in America and even Asia, besides Putin. There is no vital US interest here, except to control oil lines but war wasn't necessary for this. This is part of exporting a permanent revolution ww and permanent war...including encircling Russia by expanding NATO. I'd say that's baiting the bear.

Now Pat how do you get around your claims to not be a NC with this stand?
I thought terrorists and security were you claims for such interventions. There is no threat to us here.

Hog Farmer
08-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Putin is nuts...

but I do hold the Bush administration somewhat responsible for the war


Thats gotta be one of the dumbest comments I've seen in the history of the intraweb!

whatsmynameagain
08-28-2008, 01:28 PM
Thats gotta be one of the dumbest comments I've seen in the history of the intraweb!

you've obviously never read your own posts.


Posted via Mobile Device

patteeu
08-28-2008, 01:30 PM
If this is to help Mac, I'd say it would backfire...it puts me back considering Obama.

Putin is right we were involved in this, in fact our hands were all over it...covertly. There's been other reports of it in America and even Asia, besides Putin. There is no vital US interest here, except to control oil lines but war wasn't necessary for this. This is part of exporting a permanent revolution ww and permanent war...including encircling Russia by expanding NATO. I'd say that's baiting the bear.

Now Pat how do you get around your claims to not be a NC with this stand?
I thought terrorists and security were you claims for such interventions. There is no threat to us here.

I'm not a neocon (old definition - former anti-communist leftist, usually jewish) but I may as well be a neocon (your much broader definition - anyone who supports aggressively pursuing our interests, including the interest in making sure that energy remains available to us and our allies and the interest in preparing for the efforts of potential adversaries like Russia and China to expand their sphere of control).

Georgia is a formerly communist, recently-independent state that has adopted western reforms. Why shouldn't we be encouraging that and helping to strengthen it?

Taco John
08-28-2008, 01:36 PM
I'm not a neocon (old definition - former anti-communist leftist, usually jewish) but I may as well be a neocon (your much broader definition - anyone who supports aggressively pursuing our interests, including the interest in making sure that energy remains available to us and our allies and the interest in preparing for the efforts of potential adversaries like Russia and China to expand their sphere of control).


As far as I'm concerned, you're the prime example of a neocon, as it is understood by todays standards. When I think of a neocon, I think of you.

Taco John
08-28-2008, 01:39 PM
Why shouldn't we be giving support to the Georgian military? I mean, I get that the Ron Paul people want to pull up into a shell and end all foreign aid, but aside from that argument and the realpolitik argument that we might offend the Russians, is there a good argument for not helping Georgia?

Yes, we are overextended as it is, and don't have the resources to involve ourselves in another war, one which threatens to expand into a broader global conflict against a nation that is in a much better financial situation than we currently find ourselves in.

That, and Congress hasn't directed that we should do anything in regards to intervening in this situation, thus there is no mandate from the people *to* get involved.

That damn pesky piece of paper!

BucEyedPea
08-28-2008, 01:44 PM
I'm not a neocon (old definition - former anti-communist leftist, usually jewish) but I may as well be a neocon (your much broader definition - anyone who supports aggressively pursuing our interests, including the interest in making sure that energy remains available to us and our allies and the interest in preparing for the efforts of potential adversaries like Russia and China to expand their sphere of control).

Georgia is a formerly communist, recently-independent state that has adopted western reforms. Why shouldn't we be encouraging that and helping to strengthen it?

So you're an old fashioned mercantilist and imperialist then?

I ask because where does our constitution talk about using our military for anything besides defense? Particularly when trade can buy oil. You can use the same excuse everywhere to change the whole world. Are willing to have American soldiers die for oil?

Georgia is not a budding democracy either. Their president shuts down opposition views and parties and invaded an independent state. And we all know how elections go in other parts of the world. The fault primarily lies with them first, then with Russia over reacting. But we gave the green light.

And fwiw, the early nc weren't all Jews either. Bill Bennet, Brit Hume, Fred Barnes aren't. Bennet is a Catholic. Hume a Christian. That whole smear comes from Bill Kristol of the Weekly Slandered. I've seen on that site too.




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SBK
08-28-2008, 01:51 PM
It cracks me up that the democrats in the US seems to have the same theories about elections as the crackpots of the world.

patteeu
08-28-2008, 04:48 PM
As far as I'm concerned, you're the prime example of a neocon, as it is understood by todays standards. When I think of a neocon, I think of you.

I'm flattered. :thumb:

patteeu
08-28-2008, 05:01 PM
So you're an old fashioned mercantilist and imperialist then?

There's really no telling what you mean by these labels, but, no, I'm neither of those things. To use your terminology, you could probably say I'm a new-fashioned imperialist, I guess. By which I mean that I'm in favor of encouraging/supporting/rewarding nations where they adopt practices that are compatible with western liberalism, particularly free market capitalism and freedom-respecting governance.

I ask because where does our constitution talk about using our military for anything besides defense? Particularly when trade can buy oil. You can use the same excuse everywhere to change the whole world. Are willing to have American soldiers die for oil?

That is defense and yes, of course I am. Are you willing to revert to a pre-industrial society in order to avoid the deaths of American soldiers?

Georgia is not a budding democracy either. Their president shuts down opposition views and parties and invaded an independent state. And we all know how elections go in other parts of the world. The fault primarily lies with them first, then with Russia over reacting. But we gave the green light.

Whether you admit it or not, Georgia has taken a big step toward the west (including political reforms). No one is saying that they've become New Hampshire. And they didn't invade an independent state.

And fwiw, the early nc weren't all Jews either. Bill Bennet, Brit Hume, Fred Barnes aren't. Bennet is a Catholic. Hume a Christian. That whole smear comes from Bill Kristol of the Weekly Slandered. I've seen on that site too.

Which is why I said "usually jewish".[/QUOTE]

clemensol
08-28-2008, 08:55 PM
Why shouldn't we be giving support to the Georgian military? I mean, I get that the Ron Paul people want to pull up into a shell and end all foreign aid, but aside from that argument and the realpolitik argument that we might offend the Russians, is there a good argument for not helping Georgia?

I'll give you three reasons:

-Georgia is not a solid democracy, despite the never ending praise from the west. The Economist's ranking of the state of democracy in 167 countries ranks Georgia as the 104th most democratic nation out of 167. In fact, Georgia was even lower than Russia, which ranked 102.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

-Georgia used racist practices in South Ossetia. They gave huge government handouts to ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia to encourage Georgian settlement in the area. Meanwhile, they gave no aid to the desperately poor Ossetian villages.

-The situation in Georgia has nothing to do with our national security. Helping the Georgian military in no way makes us more safe. I could care less whether Russia or Georgia control the two regions. They are both deeply flawed governments and the world has not become a worse place as a result of Georgia losing complete control of the separatist regions.

clemensol
08-28-2008, 08:56 PM
Thats gotta be one of the dumbest comments I've seen in the history of the intraweb!

if you think so, please explain why

patteeu
08-29-2008, 06:53 AM
I'll give you three reasons:

-Georgia is not a solid democracy, despite the never ending praise from the west. The Economist's ranking of the state of democracy in 167 countries ranks Georgia as the 104th most democratic nation out of 167. In fact, Georgia was even lower than Russia, which ranked 102.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

-Georgia used racist practices in South Ossetia. They gave huge government handouts to ethnic Georgian villages in South Ossetia to encourage Georgian settlement in the area. Meanwhile, they gave no aid to the desperately poor Ossetian villages.

-The situation in Georgia has nothing to do with our national security. Helping the Georgian military in no way makes us more safe. I could care less whether Russia or Georgia control the two regions. They are both deeply flawed governments and the world has not become a worse place as a result of Georgia losing complete control of the separatist regions.

At what point would it become a matter of US national security if Russia decided to expand it's region of control again, ala the Soviet Union? Would it become a national security issue if Russia moved into Poland? How about Germany? What if they went all the way to France? I'm not completely convinced that Georgia ought to be our tripwire, but I'd draw the line well east of the Atlantic coast of Europe. This is a subject that needs to be settled because we shouldn't be talking about expanding NATO (or even continuing it's existence for the current member states) unless we're really serious about acting as a unified organization and defending each and every member state from outside aggressors.

clemensol
08-29-2008, 10:47 AM
At what point would it become a matter of US national security if Russia decided to expand it's region of control again, ala the Soviet Union? Would it become a national security issue if Russia moved into Poland? How about Germany? What if they went all the way to France? I'm not completely convinced that Georgia ought to be our tripwire, but I'd draw the line well east of the Atlantic coast of Europe. This is a subject that needs to be settled because we shouldn't be talking about expanding NATO (or even continuing it's existence for the current member states) unless we're really serious about acting as a unified organization and defending each and every member state from outside aggressors.

Difficult question. To be honest, I don't think any Russian action in Europe would affect our national security. However I do think we would have some level of moral responsibility to prevent Russian control of Europe.

But it's a moot point because the move by Russia in Georgia is nothing like the soviet aggression of the cold war. Georgia keeps their pro-western government and the Georgian government probably becomes closer with the west. This was not a move to expand Russia's zone of influence. See Poland's shift towards the west regarding missile defense as a result of the war. See Ukraine's shift away from Russia regarding Russia's base on the Crimean (sp?) Peninsula. The war has brought much of eastern europe closer to the west. Russia does official recognize two pro-kremlin regions but remember that these regions are tiny and already were pro-kremlin and basically independent.

It's also a moot point because I don't think Russia would ever go invade a NATO country. If they did, I would have to seriously reconsider my views on foreign policy.

As for expanding NATO, I think it's a decent idea to expand Nato into eastern europe. While I don't think it helps our national security, I do think it is a good way to prevent Russian belligerence. Like I said before, I don't think Russia would ever attack a Nato member, so I don't see much risk in expanding. However, we should not expand into countries like Georgia which have unacceptable policies.

clemensol
08-29-2008, 10:50 AM
Also, I don't think it would be wise to give Ukraine Nato membership because of the fact that they have a strong, pro-kremlin opposition.

RJ
08-29-2008, 11:09 AM
Why shouldn't we be giving support to the Georgian military? I mean, I get that the Ron Paul people want to pull up into a shell and end all foreign aid, but aside from that argument and the realpolitik argument that we might offend the Russians, is there a good argument for not helping Georgia?



I don't understand why we're not on the side of the South Osettians. Apparently they don't want to be a part of Georgia and Geogia doesn't want to set them free.

Today, we are all South Osettians.

BigChiefFan
08-29-2008, 12:01 PM
I wouldn't put it past W. in the least, in fact it sounds very plausible considering his abuse of power.

Calcountry
08-29-2008, 02:56 PM
Rasputen, verboten, perostrika, Gibralter.