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View Full Version : Elections Palin: Founding Fathers & Pledge of Allegiance


irishjayhawk
08-31-2008, 11:45 PM
http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html

11. Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.




If you add this to peddling creationism, what exactly are these home schooled kids learning?



(This time I am editorializing rather than merely relaying, FTR)

wazu
08-31-2008, 11:47 PM
Next thing you know she'll claim to have visited all 58 states.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-31-2008, 11:48 PM
http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html




If you add this to peddling creationism, what exactly are these home schooled kids learning?



(This time I am editorializing rather than merely relaying, FTR)

ROFL....



ROFL.....


Look in my eyyyyyyyyyes
What do you see?

The cult of R-dumbassery.

splatbass
08-31-2008, 11:52 PM
Ummmm, "under God" wasn't in the Pledge of Allegiance when the founding fathers were alive.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-31-2008, 11:54 PM
Ummmm, "under God" wasn't in the Pledge of Allegiance when the founding fathers were alive.

Nor was the pledge in existence until 1892...and under "God" wasn't added until the Red Scare.

HolmeZz
08-31-2008, 11:54 PM
That's pretty funny. Not as much for the inaccuracy, but because of how often 'founding fathers' arguments get made. She's got the politician-lingo down.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-31-2008, 11:56 PM
That's pretty funny. Not as much for the inaccuracy, but because of how often 'founding fathers' arguments get made. She's got the politician-lingo down.

I'm starting to think that this woman is a female George W. Bush without the familial legacy.

HolmeZz
08-31-2008, 11:57 PM
Ummmm, "under God" wasn't in the Pledge of Allegiance when the founding fathers were alive.

The Pledge of Allegiance was likely written well after our founding fathers. It's not even about the 'Under God' part.

Pitt Gorilla
08-31-2008, 11:58 PM
http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html




If you add this to peddling creationism, what exactly are these home schooled kids learning?



(This time I am editorializing rather than merely relaying, FTR)Good Lord, there's no way she's that ignorant.

Logical
08-31-2008, 11:59 PM
I'm starting to think that this woman is a female George W. Bush without the familial legacy.

Wait until she unloads Nucular on the nation in the debate.:spock:

alnorth
09-01-2008, 12:00 AM
Yeah, I dont really care for homeschooling or this unreasonable attachment to swearing an oath to God in school, but what can ya do. This is one of those freedoms I dont care for, but I'm not going to complain since this system of government also guarantees a lot of speech freedoms I do want that are denied in even a lot of European countries.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:01 AM
Yeah, I dont really care for homeschooling or this unreasonable attachment to swearing an oath to God in school, but what can ya do. This is one of those freedoms I dont care for, but I'm not going to complain since this system of government also guarantees a lot of speech freedoms I do want that are denied in even a lot of European countries.

It's not really about that as much as it is about the ignorance of the candidate in question.

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:04 AM
I'm starting to think that this woman is a female George W. Bush without the familial legacy.

Meh. She could very well be completely stupid, but it'll take a bit more than this. I think she'll likely embarrass herself at least once during the next couple months and judging by the fact that a lot of McCain's people are saying "she knows a lot about foreign policy because she's near Russia", I would guess it's likely going to be a gaffe on foreign policy.

Wait until she unloads Nucular on the nation in the debate.

Yeah, I already forgot about that. That was pretty bad.

alnorth
09-01-2008, 12:04 AM
It's not really about that as much as it is about the ignorance of the candidate in question.

Its part of the baggage that comes with any highly religious candidate. You cant really call it a mental failure since it probably describes close to the majority of our country. I may be an atheist, but I recognize that I'm also a pretty small minority, and the religious right are a voting block I just have to put up with if I want to see my party win elections.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:05 AM
Meh. She could very well be completely stupid, but it'll take a bit more than this. I think she'll likely embarrass herself at least once during the next couple months and judging by the fact that a lot of McCain's people are saying "she knows a lot about foreign policy because she's near Russia", I would guess it's likely going to be a gaffe on foreign policy.



Yeah, I already forgot about that. That was pretty bad.


She and Putin were at odds. All. The. Time.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:06 AM
Its part of the baggage that comes with any highly religious candidate. You cant really call it a mental failure since it probably describes close to the majority of our country. I may be an atheist, but I recognize that I'm also a pretty small minority, and the religious right are a voting block I just have to put up with if I want to see my party win elections.

WTF??

It's a matter of historical record.

The Founding Fathers can't support a Pledge of Allegiance that didn't exist until 116 years after the creation of the Union. Nor can they support the phrase "Under God" that didn't come until 175+ years after formation of said Union. This isn't about cognitive dissonance, it's about easily attainable facts of when certain things happened.

wazu
09-01-2008, 12:07 AM
I think she'll likely embarrass herself at least once during the next couple months...

As long as she doesn't say that it's nice to finally have a black candidate who is clean and articulate. Pretty sure that would be career ending.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:08 AM
I'm with Hamas. I don't even see a religious aspect to this story. And I'm an atheist.

alnorth
09-01-2008, 12:08 AM
WTF??

It's a matter of historical record.

The Founding Fathers can't support a Pledge of Allegiance that didn't exist until 116 years after the creation of the Union. Nor can they support the phrase "Under God" that didn't come until 175+ years after formation of said Union. This isn't about cognitive dissonance, it's about easily attainable facts of when certain things happened.

I honestly didnt notice the founding fathers bit. I skimmed right over it and saw it as a defense of the pledge of allegience. I never cared for that, so thats what I focused on.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:09 AM
I honestly didnt notice the founding fathers bit. I skimmed right over it and saw it as a defense of the pledge of allegience. I never cared for that, so thats what I focused on.

Now it's clear why you had a hard time with the other thread....

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:10 AM
I honestly didnt notice the founding fathers bit. I skimmed right over it and saw it as a defense of the pledge of allegience. I never cared for that, so thats what I focused on.

Even if it were a defense of the Pledge, the Pledge didn't exist until 1892. The FF's had been sucking dirt for 90 years by then. You could not frame a more incorrect answer to the question than the one she posited while still speaking the English language.

alnorth
09-01-2008, 12:12 AM
Even if it were a defense of the Pledge, the Pledge didn't exist until 1892. The FF's had been sucking dirt for 90 years by then. You could not frame a more incorrect answer to the question than the one she posited while still speaking the English language.

Looks like you skimmed right over my post too. I'll repeat it with the important part bolded.

I honestly didnt notice the founding fathers bit. I skimmed right over it and saw it as a defense of the pledge of allegience. I never cared for that, so thats what I focused on.

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:12 AM
WTF??

It's a matter of historical record.

The Founding Fathers can't support a Pledge of Allegiance that didn't exist until 116 years after the creation of the Union. Nor can they support the phrase "Under God" that didn't come until 175+ years after formation of said Union. This isn't about cognitive dissonance, it's about easily attainable facts of when certain things happened.This is like the myth that all the founding fathers were Christian when several were Deists or really just did not have a religious preference other than because a certain level was required in those times.

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:13 AM
As long as she doesn't say that it's nice to finally have a black candidate who is clean and articulate. Pretty sure that would be career ending.

Palin will be able to survive a gaffe of that nature, one that isn't about any real issues. If she ****s up on something substantive, you're probably gonna have to put the lotion away because I don't think you'll be seeing much of your girl after November.

Ultra Peanut
09-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Wait until she unloads Nucular on the nation in the debate.:spock:She already ****ing did in her introduction speech.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:14 AM
This is like the myth that all the founding fathers were Christian when several were Deists or really just did not have a religious preference other than because a certain level was required in those times.

It may be, historically speaking, worse than that. (I dislike your myth more because of my religious feelings.)

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:14 AM
She already ****ing did in her introduction speech.

That's what Vlady was refering to.

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 12:14 AM
I don't know about you guys, but if Women's suffrage was good enough for our Founding Fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of it.

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:15 AM
She already ****ing did in her introduction speech.I know but probably not that many saw that, unlike if she does it during her debate. I wonder if that is on YouTube yet from her opening statement?

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:15 AM
This is like the myth that all the founding fathers were Christian when several were Deists or really just did not have a religious preference other than because a certain level was required in those times.


FTR....several were Diests, philosophically; but were "practicing" Christians.

Not that....that distinction will mean anything to you. :rolleyes:

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
I don't know about you guys, but if Women's suffrage was good enough for our Founding Fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of it.

ROFL

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
This just in:

Plato announces his support of John McCain.
Aristophanes lauds offshore drilling plan of Republican Nominee.

Pitt Gorilla
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
I don't know about you guys, but if Women's suffrage was good enough for our Founding Fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of it.If OS9 was good enough Abe Lincoln, it's good enough for me.

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:17 AM
She already ****ing did in her introduction speech.


Yeah, making fun of accents and differences in regional pronunciation being what it is....it's a wonder that anyone from New England wins any national office.

:rolleyes:

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:18 AM
This just in:

Plato announces his support of John McCain.
Aristophanes lauds offshore drilling plan of Republican Nominee.Rep for coming up with Aristophanes.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:18 AM
Personally, I'm just glad that Knute Rockne was such a staunch supporter of the spread option.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:19 AM
Rep for coming up with Aristophanes.

Thank Carl Sagan.

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:19 AM
I don't know about you guys, but if Women's suffrage was good enough for our Founding Fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of it.

Thread over.

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:20 AM
Yeah, making fun of accents and differences in regional pronunciation being what it is....it's a wonder that anyone from New England wins any national office.

:rolleyes:I have been to 48 of 50 states, you want to tell me where Nucular is commonly said outside of the White Hoouse and Sarah Palin's bedroom.

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:21 AM
Yeah, making fun of accents and differences in regional pronunciation being what it is....it's a wonder that anyone from New England wins any national office.

:rolleyes:

I didn't realize W. was from Alaska.

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:21 AM
Personally, I'm just glad that Knute Rockne was such a staunch supporter of the spread option.WTF I am betting that at least a 100 guys are staunch supporters of the Palin spread option and maybe even DEnise.

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 12:22 AM
This just in:

Plato announces his support of John McCain.
Aristophanes lauds offshore drilling plan of Republican Nominee.

In Aristophanes' newest comedy, Bacchus vows to follow Osama bin Laden to the Gates of Hades.

J Diddy
09-01-2008, 12:23 AM
WTF I am betting that at least a 100 guys are staunch supporters of the Palin spread option and maybe even DEnise.
:clap:
once you go dirty you don't go back

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:24 AM
WTF I am betting that at least a 100 guys are staunch supporters of the Palin spread option and maybe even DEnise.

What I find endlessly hilarious is that someone can take such a strong stance against a choice to potentially have an abortion when their very selection was an abortion.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:24 AM
Babbage announces his support of Microsoft Silverlight (AP)--

J Diddy
09-01-2008, 12:25 AM
Yeah, making fun of accents and differences in regional pronunciation being what it is....it's a wonder that anyone from New England wins any national office.

:rolleyes:

DC is like teaching a class to you, huh?

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:26 AM
Babbage announces his support of Microsoft Silverlight (AP)--

Awesome randomness achieved with Microsoft Silverlight. Of all things Microsoft....
:clap:

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:31 AM
In Aristophanes' newest comedy, Bacchus vows to follow Osama bin Laden to the Gates of Hades.I wonder if someone could do McCain's entire campaign in Greek tragedy or as a Roman play.

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:32 AM
I didn't realize W. was from Alaska.

Texas, and many "Westerners" pronounce it the same way.

Afterall, General WARSH-ington.....captured those Hessians on Christmas Day during the Revolution and all.

Or don't they teach that in the schools you attended? ;)

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:32 AM
DC is like teaching a class to you, huh?

No. On average, my students are much brighter.

J Diddy
09-01-2008, 12:33 AM
No. On average, my students are much brighter.

ROFL

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:33 AM
I wonder if someone could do McCain's entire campaign in Greek tragedy or as a Roman play.

Gaius Verres.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:33 AM
Phew, this provoked me to actually watch Palin's introduction speech. Man, she's boring. She sounds like she's talking to a toddler. She's the antithesis of eloquent. And there's some funny stuff in there.

EDIT: It's painful. And a USA chant in the middle of it? Do Obama supporters chant China or something?

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:35 AM
No. On average, my students are much brighter.
I bet you I could find posts that you have made that refute this.:eek:

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:36 AM
Phew, this provoked me to actually watch Palin's introduction speech. Man, she's boring. She sounds like she's talking to a toddler. She's the antithesis of eloquent. And there's some funny stuff in there.

She's definitely pretty difficult to listen to. If she doesn't work on her 'speech' voice, I can see it becoming a bit of a punchline.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:37 AM
I don't know about you guys, but if Women's suffrage was good enough for our Founding Fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of it.

She apparently knows this aspect of history. She references it in her introductory speech.

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:37 AM
I bet you I could find posts that you have made that refute this.:eek:

Depends on the time of day, and number of "adult beverages" consumed. :shrug:

:hmmm:

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 12:37 AM
Depends on the time of day, and number of "adult beverages" consumed. :shrug:

:hmmm:

I wish I would have had you as a teacher growing up.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:39 AM
She's definitely pretty difficult to listen to. If she doesn't work on her 'speech' voice, I can see it becoming a bit of a punchline.

She's like a mom at a child's sporting event.

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:39 AM
... And a USA chant in the middle of it? Do Obama supporters chant China or something?...


No, they chant: "Yes, we CAN!"

Sorry; that shit's gotten old. It was cool the first 800 or so times. :rolleyes:

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Depends on the time of day, and number of "adult beverages" consumed. :shrug:

:hmmm:I did not realize we were looking for posts to confirm your claim that you are retarded.:doh!::evil:

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 12:40 AM
No, they chant: "Yes, we CAN!"

Sorry; that shit's gotten old. It was cool the first 800 or so times. :rolleyes:

I will be sure never to do it again. I wouldn't want to do anything uncool.

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:40 AM
I wish I would have had you as a teacher growing up.

FTR, I only drink on weekends and non-school/non-'teaching'-the-next-day' nights.

So fugg off, asshole. FWIW, tomorrow is a "holiday." Remember, dickweed?

:)

Logical
09-01-2008, 12:40 AM
No, they chant: "Yes, we CAN!"

Sorry; that shit's gotten old. It was cool the first 800 or so times. :rolleyes:

What do you mean that never gets old.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:42 AM
No, they chant: "Yes, we CAN!"

Sorry; that shit's gotten old. It was cool the first 800 or so times. :rolleyes:

At least that has something to do with the campaign?

USA USA USA? Does that really separate you from the other candidate?

HolmeZz
09-01-2008, 12:42 AM
No, they chant: "Yes, we CAN!"

Sorry; that shit's gotten old. It was cool the first 800 or so times. :rolleyes:

They actually mixed it up and did a 'USA' chant during his acceptance speech.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:43 AM
They actually mixed it up and did a 'USA' chant during his acceptance speech.

Really?

Then color me dumbfounded. USA chants? Seriously? :spock:

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 12:43 AM
What do you mean that never gets old.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

That shits lame now. The new hip thing is shooting wolves and polar bears from a helicopter.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:43 AM
FTR, the Dems were chanting UAE during Obama's speech, since he's a Muslim and all.

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:43 AM
What do you mean that never gets old.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


I gotta admit, the SONG kicks ass; it's the silly-assed, now phony....'spontaneous' gatherings that 'chant' it.

Instead of chanting, they ought to just que that mutha-fuggin' SONG.

:)

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-01-2008, 12:44 AM
That shits lame now. The new hip thing is shooting wolves and polar bears from a helicopter.

I done got me 157 dead gooks killed. And 50 water buffaloes too.

GET SOME!!!

GET SOME GET SOME!!

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:45 AM
They actually mixed it up and did a 'USA' chant during his acceptance speech.

Either way, they ought to consult Fergie or Lil Wayne.....for a new, more hip and cool...."chant," IMHO.

:hmmm:

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:45 AM
Either way, they ought to consult Fergie or Lil Wayne.....for a new, more hip and cool...."chant," IMHO.

:hmmm:

USA is, hands down, lamer.

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
Either way, they ought to consult Fergie or Lil Wayne.....for a new, more hip and cool...."chant," IMHO.

:hmmm:

I think the self-affirming "Yes we can!" is still pretty alright.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
Out of curiosity, how many intelligence gaffes can one have before it becomes too much?

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
USA is, hands down, lamer.

Yeah. I agree. But still.

I think the self-affirming "Yes we can!" is still pretty alright.


I just expect better from a brutha, and all. :shake:

Out of curiosity, how many intelligence gaffes can one have before it becomes too much?

Good question....the ratio seems to be different depending on who's being criticized, and who's doing the criticizing.

Surprise. :rolleyes:

J Diddy
09-01-2008, 01:02 AM
I bet you I could find posts that you have made that refute this.:eek:


hopefully not from students, we all know how he handles the one who get out of line

Ultra Peanut
09-01-2008, 01:11 AM
I gotta admit, the SONG kicks ass; it's the silly-assed, now phony....'spontaneous' gatherings that 'chant' it.What about people attending a scheduled political rally would makes you think that anyone would ever claim that they're spontaneous gatherings?

Psh, people "chanting" DE-FENSE! at 'spontaneous' gatherings. "ˇSi se puede!" my ass! Build a bonfire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGAIJxd2Eq8)? "You Suck!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rayngzFSLe8)? ughhhghg these people are just props, devoid of actual emotion or free will

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 01:12 AM
What about people attending a scheduled political rally would makes you think that anyone would ever claim that they're spontaneous gatherings?

Psh, people "chanting" DE-FENSE! at 'spontaneous' gatherings. It's so PHONY.


It's gotten old; they need something new. I'm just sayin'.... :shrug:

Logical
09-01-2008, 01:21 AM
...
I just expect better from a brutha, and all. :shake:...Well if they did not have so many honkies attending, maybe he could use some solid rap lyrics.

Ultra Peanut
09-01-2008, 01:22 AM
It's gotten old; they need something new. I'm just sayin'.... :shrug:So you're bashing its phoniness and suggesting that the Obama campaign needs to fabricate a newer chant that's less tiresome to you?

bigfoot
09-01-2008, 07:42 AM
FTR....several were Diests, philosophically; but were "practicing" Christians.

Not that....that distinction will mean anything to you. :rolleyes:




Patrick Henry


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; “THE VOICE OF LIBERTY”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA

Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast.49

The Bible… is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.50

Righteousness alone can exalt America as a nation. Whoever thou art, remember this; and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.51

The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible.52

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.53

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755

StcChief
09-01-2008, 07:46 AM
:clap:Its part of the baggage that comes with any highly religious candidate. You cant really call it a mental failure since it probably describes close to the majority of our country. I may be an atheist, but I recognize that I'm also a pretty small minority, and the religious right are a voting block I just have to put up with if I want to see my party win elections.
:clap:

pretty much sums it up. Lib minority don't understand this.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Next thing you know she'll claim to have visited all 58 states.

57...and he had to think about it for a bit before deciding it was 57.

( FTR: at first I thought Obama misspoke because I read it in print. But I saw a YouTube later)


11. Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Depends on what "it" means here. Is it the words "under God" her pronoun is referring to as being good enough for the FFs leading her to defend the Pledge because it has those words in it? Or does her pronoun mean the "Pledge" itself for which she'd fight?

Seems logical to me that "it" refers to the being "under God" and not the Pledge itself. So this idea being in the Pledge is worth fighting for because she sees this nation being founded under God, as many Christians do. That goes to opinion—her opinion. It doesn't at all make it clear that she is saying the Pledge was "good enough" for the Founders. So it's arguable that it means otherwise.

It=pronoun for "under God"
That was the question asked and she expanded on why she'd defend it.

That's how I read it.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2008, 08:47 AM
It's gotten old; they need something new. I'm just sayin'.... :shrug:

It has but look at that sentence more closely. It's arguable that it means what the left claims. I say minimally it can be read two ways.
I say it doesn't read as it is being reacted to.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 10:25 AM
:clap:
:clap:

pretty much sums it up. Lib minority don't understand this.

You didn't even read the thread.

ROFL

BigChiefFan
09-01-2008, 11:03 AM
Wow, she's dumber than a box of rocks.

J Diddy
09-01-2008, 11:06 AM
57...and he had to think about it for a bit before deciding it was 57.

( FTR: at first I thought Obama misspoke because I read it in print. But I saw a YouTube later)




Depends on what "it" means here. Is it the words "under God" her pronoun is referring to as being good enough for the FFs leading her to defend the Pledge because it has those words in it? Or does her pronoun mean the "Pledge" itself for which she'd fight?

Seems logical to me that "it" refers to the being "under God" and not the Pledge itself. So this idea being in the Pledge is worth fighting for because she sees this nation being founded under God, as many Christians do. That goes to opinion—her opinion. It doesn't at all make it clear that she is saying the Pledge was "good enough" for the Founders. So it's arguable that it means otherwise.

It=pronoun for "under God"
That was the question asked and she expanded on why she'd defend it.

That's how I read it.



That to me is definitely a reach. She was obviously talking about the pledge.

irishjayhawk
09-01-2008, 11:09 AM
57...and he had to think about it for a bit before deciding it was 57.

( FTR: at first I thought Obama misspoke because I read it in print. But I saw a YouTube later)




Depends on what "it" means here. Is it the words "under God" her pronoun is referring to as being good enough for the FFs leading her to defend the Pledge because it has those words in it? Or does her pronoun mean the "Pledge" itself for which she'd fight?

Seems logical to me that "it" refers to the being "under God" and not the Pledge itself. So this idea being in the Pledge is worth fighting for because she sees this nation being founded under God, as many Christians do. That goes to opinion—her opinion. It doesn't at all make it clear that she is saying the Pledge was "good enough" for the Founders. So it's arguable that it means otherwise.

It=pronoun for "under God"
That was the question asked and she expanded on why she'd defend it.

That's how I read it.

Umm, first that's a reach.

Second, let's assume it is "under God" part. It wasn't created until 1956. That's well after the founding fathers.

Third, let's assume she meant the "under God" party by which she meant the founding fathers founded the country under religious beliefs. This would be propagating the old myth that the founding fathers were Christian and whatnot.


Really, you can't spin this one.

Sully
09-01-2008, 12:48 PM
Patrick Henry


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; “THE VOICE OF LIBERTY”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA

Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast.49

The Bible… is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.50

Righteousness alone can exalt America as a nation. Whoever thou art, remember this; and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.51

The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible.52

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.53

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755

John Adams, in the Treaty of Tripoli:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

BigChiefFan
09-01-2008, 12:50 PM
The Peabrain-McCain ticket-sign me up.

Sully
09-01-2008, 01:17 PM
To be fair, Alaska didn't become a state till the mid 20th century, so maybe she meant her state's founding fathers.

Thig Lyfe
09-01-2008, 01:32 PM
I don't know about you guys, but if Women's suffrage was good enough for our Founding Fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of it.

BAM! (http://www.leedberg.com/MotaroFTP/sounds/flawless.wav)

beer bacon
09-01-2008, 01:34 PM
To be fair, Alaska didn't become a state till the mid 20th century, so maybe she meant her state's founding fathers.

Well she is a secessionist. Maybe she doesn't consider America's Founding Fathers to be her own Founding Fathers.

Thig Lyfe
09-01-2008, 01:34 PM
Patrick Henry


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; “THE VOICE OF LIBERTY”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA

Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast.49

The Bible… is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.50

Righteousness alone can exalt America as a nation. Whoever thou art, remember this; and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.51

The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible.52

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.53

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755

Quote mining FTL.

Educate yourself. (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html)

BucEyedPea
09-01-2008, 01:46 PM
That to me is definitely a reach. She was obviously talking about the pledge.

Not a reach at all. It's that type of thing that knocks contracts down.
I've seen people do it.

HolyHandgernade
09-01-2008, 03:35 PM
FTR....several were Diests, philosophically; but were "practicing" Christians.

Not that....that distinction will mean anything to you. :rolleyes:

I know this is an old thread, but the Founders in question (Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Franklin), were not "practicing Christians", even "nominally Christian" is a strong phrase. They were culturally Christian, in other words, the culture they lived in, if they were religious at all, was Christian. So, when they spoke of the matter, they generally tried to relate within the culture they were speaking to and of. That is very different from saying they were "practicing Christians".

-HH

Mr. Kotter
09-01-2008, 03:40 PM
I know this is an old thread, but the Founders in question (Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Franklin), were not "practicing Christians", even "nominally Christian" is a strong phrase. They were culturally Christian, in other words, the culture they lived in, if they were religious at all, was Christian. So, when they spoke of the matter, they generally tried to relate within the culture they were speaking to and of. That is very different from saying they were "practicing Christians".

-HH


In my view, it's semantics.

I consider myself Diest, but also a practicing Christian (in your language, Cultural" Christian.)

HolyHandgernade
09-01-2008, 03:43 PM
In my view, it's semantics.

I consider myself Diest, but also a practicing Christian (in your language, Cultural" Christian.)

Its not semantics, a practicing Christian takes part in the rites offered by its Church, believes in the dogma of its sect. A culturally Christian person is simply someone who may have been raised in a Christian home, but no longer practices the religion, but is familiar with the stories and rites in general.

-HH

BucEyedPea
09-01-2008, 03:47 PM
I know this is an old thread, but the Founders in question (Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Franklin), were not "practicing Christians", even "nominally Christian" is a strong phrase. They were culturally Christian, in other words, the culture they lived in, if they were religious at all, was Christian. So, when they spoke of the matter, they generally tried to relate within the culture they were speaking to and of. That is very different from saying they were "practicing Christians".

-HH

Not true about Washington. In fact there is evidence suggesting that he renounced Masonry and converted to Roman Catholicism on his death bed.
There are also a lot more Founders than the one you named....quite a few even if not as well known.

HolyHandgernade
09-01-2008, 03:54 PM
Not true about Washington. In fact there is evidence suggesting that he renounced Masonry and converted to Roman Catholicism on his death bed.
There are also a lot more Founders than the one you named....quite a few even if not as well known.

Yes, I've seen this supposed "evidence". Very convincing. So tell me, even IF it is true, does the conversion retroactively counteract everything he said or wrote? Does it act as a big eraser? You do realize, that by saying he had a deathbed conversion, you are simultaneously acknowledging that he had a different outlook while he was animated.

Also, I never said "all the Founding Fathers". Many were indeed Christian. But the ones we might term as the real "movers and shakers", the ones whose policies were actually adopted, is the key. Outside of Hamilton, that gets to be a minority on the Christian side of it.

-HH

bigfoot
09-01-2008, 04:40 PM
Quote mining FTL.

Educate yourself. (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html) (Sully too)

This is true we are not a theocracy. We were dealing with Mulsim countries. Adams was trying to insure we were not viewed as a Christian theocracy and distance us from the "crusades".

My point is only that Christianity was a big part of the lives of many of our founding fathers, that's all-and the link was an interesting read.

What does FTL mean?