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Pneuma
09-10-2008, 04:18 PM
I like the new direction. Sounds like Metallica got back a bit of the 80's. I like the album but it is one of the worst mixed albums ever!!! The mixing is so bad, I can barely enjoy it! Forget about listening to it on a iPod, the loudness will wear out your ears. The entire CD almost clips the entire way though. Sounds like you are listening though blown speakers. It is truely a crime.

Case and point:
<img src="http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/626/loudnesswars1ears0si4.jpg" />

Demonpenz
09-10-2008, 04:29 PM
doesn't sound like that to me. to me it sounds like vagina's clapping. That's how awesome

Molitoth
09-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Are you listening to the leaked version? That is why the quality sucks.

Braincase
09-10-2008, 05:26 PM
I can think of a couple opinions that I'll value in this thread.

DaneMcCloud
09-10-2008, 05:45 PM
This isn't a mix issue. It's a Mastering issue.

This is the bane of my existence.

It's called "2 Buss Limiting" and what's happens is that the entire stereo mix file is sent through a mastering limiter (Waves L1, L2, L3 or Universal Audio Precision Limiter or something similar). It squeezes the audio so tightly that there are no dynamics left. The soft passages are as loud as the loud passages and many older CD player D/A converters can't handle the signal. The result is an incredibly loud file with obvious digital distortion.

Many artists are coming out against the "Loudness Wars" but I'm not surprised that Metallica's record has been mastered this hot because Rick Rubin is well known for over-limiting his records (Californication is a prime example).

It's too bad because this practice can effectively ruin an otherwise good mix.

Huffman83
09-10-2008, 07:38 PM
I don't think you can blame Rubin. He doesn't have much to do w/ sitting behind a console and hitting play. He pretty much shows up, listens to music and tells the bands he works w/ what he thinks.

"Head more in this direction." That kind of thing.

If you look up all of the people he worked w/ Danzig, Slayer, RHCP, SOAD, etc...you'll see the same thing said. "He was never really around."

Who mastered the CD though? Andy Wallace?

DaneMcCloud
09-10-2008, 07:46 PM
I don't think you can blame Rubin. He doesn't have much to do w/ sitting behind a console and hitting play. He pretty much shows up, listens to music and tells the bands he works w/ what he thinks.

"Head more in this direction." That kind of thing.

If you look up all of the people he worked w/ Danzig, Slayer, RHCP, SOAD, etc...you'll see the same thing said. "He was never really around."

Who mastered the CD though? Andy Wallace?

Andy Wallace is a mixer, not a mastering guy.

And as the head of Sony Music and an incredibly influential person, I'll just go ahead and disagree that Rick didn't have input on the mastering process. I haven't spoken to him since last year but he's certainly had input on every record he's ever been associated with. And in almost every circumstance, the producer sits with the mastering engineer.

And furthermore, this is an extremely common practice. The record companies are more to blame than the producer or mastering engineers because they want their record to be louder than everyone elses.

It's ****ing bullshit. On Iron Maiden's last record, they fully bypassed any 2-Buss compression. None. Zippo.

Go back and listen to a record made in the 70's and you'll hear about a 15 db difference in overall volume.

Unless it's been "re-mastered".

Deberg_1990
09-10-2008, 07:59 PM
So are you guys basically saying that the CD is too loud??

I mean, it is Metallica not Elton John. ROFL

Ultra Peanut
09-10-2008, 08:32 PM
So are you guys basically saying that the CD is too loud??

I mean, it is Metallica not Elton John. ROFLNo. That's not what they are saying.

Huffman83
09-12-2008, 02:58 AM
And as the head of Sony Music and an incredibly influential person, I'll just go ahead and disagree that Rick didn't have input on the mastering process. I haven't spoken to him since last year but he's certainly had input on every record he's ever been associated with. And in almost every circumstance, the producer sits with the mastering engineer.



I think you dropped something.....:D

DaneMcCloud
09-12-2008, 03:02 AM
I think you dropped something.....:D

That seems to happen in the media forum.

From time to time.

:evil:

Huffman83
09-12-2008, 03:05 AM
I agree about your statement of albums from the 70's. It's interesting to ask the opinion of people my age or younger listening to analog recordings compared to things recording on pro tools.

While one person would use "warm." for analog. Most people my age would say "muffled."

DaneMcCloud
09-12-2008, 03:10 AM
While one person would use "warm." for analog. Most people my age would say "muffled."

It's because their ears can't understand dynamics.

As with everything, if you see something with your eyes or ears one way for an extended period of time, it's difficult for our brains to translate and understand something differently on the spot.

Whether we've been witnessing the source either right or wrong.

Huffman83
09-12-2008, 03:14 AM
Damn kids and their Pac Man video games and their Zimas!

brownrusty
09-12-2008, 10:18 AM
It sounds to me like all of the tracks were laid down properly, this is totally a mix and mastering issue accept for perhaps a bit to much gain on the guitar, but its hard to tell from all of the "edge distortion" goin on in the master. It almost sounds like both the mixing and mastering engineers forgot how to use a compressor.

The dynamics of the kick drum are all over the place, sounds like they stuck Beta 52s in the kick drums and said "this is great, we dont need compression or EQ!" The snare is a train wreck, Usually you try to remove the most unpleasent frequancies of a snare drum, but they decided to turn that part up... the worst part is I can hear the crashes in the snare mic!!! that is just gawd afull. I couldnt comment about the toms, I can barley hear them and when I can all I hear is the mastering distorion. The vocals are soo soo hollow, where are they? Did they track all the vocals with a Samson microphone through a behringer mic pre!? where is the vocal compression? Doubling? verb, delay? do something! Bass sounds like they took the DI and siad "we'll fix that s%*t in the mix" then forgot to fix it. I think without all the two buss clipping the guitars might be okay, but they are still not in the pocket.

So what do you do with a totally horrible mix?! You use massive ammounts of limiting and distort the f*$k out of it. Couldnt get any worse right? WRONG!! If the engineer who masterd this had any self respect he would have told them to go back and remix this train wreck before he took the job, but instead he turned bad in to horrible. Its possable that most of the mix issues could be fixed by a decent master, but in this case all of the worst has been brought out instead. I dont like to wish I'll will on people, but I hope I never hear another recording masterd by this guy. One of the first things a good mastering engineer checks for is "edge distortion"... Edge distortion is the cracking you hear when you phase reverse one of the channels and sum them into mono. This removes all of the information in the center of the immage revealing the massive ammounts of distortion masked by the wide sterio immage (good mixes and masters will not have this). Aparently this guy didnt give much of a crap about any of that. If there wasnt any edge distortion in the mix, he certanly had no trouble creating some. Dont get me wrong, I love a loud Mix/Master, but good grief. Go back to Full Sail and ask for a refund you noob!!

In conclusion, Metallca has finally stepped up to the request of the fans and put out some great rock and roll and you tards had to go and ruin it... GG!! Metallica Is the most popular rock band alive, they dont have to listen to anyone... The record company has no power over this band... matter of fact, Metallica doenst even need a damn record company accpet for distrubution. If James, Kirk and Lars didnt like this crappy mix, they could have stopped it from getting out. They could have gotten some good people on this mix, but they diddnt... Why Metallica, why would you let this happen!? Get me the master files and I'll fix this nightmare for you!

Josh Pechette

Detoxing
09-12-2008, 04:25 PM
In conclusion, Metallca has finally stepped up to the request of the fans and put out some great rock and roll and you tards had to go and ruin it... GG!! Metallica Is the most popular rock band alive, they dont have to listen to anyone... The record company has no power over this band... matter of fact, Metallica doenst even need a damn record company accpet for distrubution. If James, Kirk and Lars didnt like this crappy mix, they could have stopped it from getting out. They could have gotten some good people on this mix, but they diddnt... Why Metallica, why would you let this happen!? Get me the master files and I'll fix this nightmare for you!

Josh Pechette

Well...that was interesting

DaneMcCloud
09-12-2008, 10:34 PM
It sounds to me like all of the tracks were laid down properly, this is totally a mix and mastering issue accept for perhaps a bit to much gain on the guitar, but its hard to tell from all of the "edge distortion" goin on in the master. It almost sounds like both the mixing and mastering engineers forgot how to use a compressor.

The dynamics of the kick drum are all over the place, sounds like they stuck Beta 52s in the kick drums and said "this is great, we dont need compression or EQ!" The snare is a train wreck, Usually you try to remove the most unpleasent frequancies of a snare drum, but they decided to turn that part up... the worst part is I can hear the crashes in the snare mic!!! that is just gawd afull. I couldnt comment about the toms, I can barley hear them and when I can all I hear is the mastering distorion. The vocals are soo soo hollow, where are they? Did they track all the vocals with a Samson microphone through a behringer mic pre!? where is the vocal compression? Doubling? verb, delay? do something! Bass sounds like they took the DI and siad "we'll fix that s%*t in the mix" then forgot to fix it. I think without all the two buss clipping the guitars might be okay, but they are still not in the pocket.

So what do you do with a totally horrible mix?! You use massive ammounts of limiting and distort the f*$k out of it. Couldnt get any worse right? WRONG!! If the engineer who masterd this had any self respect he would have told them to go back and remix this train wreck before he took the job, but instead he turned bad in to horrible. Its possable that most of the mix issues could be fixed by a decent master, but in this case all of the worst has been brought out instead. I dont like to wish I'll will on people, but I hope I never hear another recording masterd by this guy. One of the first things a good mastering engineer checks for is "edge distortion"... Edge distortion is the cracking you hear when you phase reverse one of the channels and sum them into mono. This removes all of the information in the center of the immage revealing the massive ammounts of distortion masked by the wide sterio immage (good mixes and masters will not have this). Aparently this guy didnt give much of a crap about any of that. If there wasnt any edge distortion in the mix, he certanly had no trouble creating some. Dont get me wrong, I love a loud Mix/Master, but good grief. Go back to Full Sail and ask for a refund you noob!!

In conclusion, Metallca has finally stepped up to the request of the fans and put out some great rock and roll and you tards had to go and ruin it... GG!! Metallica Is the most popular rock band alive, they dont have to listen to anyone... The record company has no power over this band... matter of fact, Metallica doenst even need a damn record company accpet for distrubution. If James, Kirk and Lars didnt like this crappy mix, they could have stopped it from getting out. They could have gotten some good people on this mix, but they diddnt... Why Metallica, why would you let this happen!? Get me the master files and I'll fix this nightmare for you!

Josh Pechette

Is this some kind of joke?

Pneuma
09-16-2008, 12:09 PM
Sorry to resurrect this thread but I found out some more info...

The below comment is from Ted Jensen the person responsible for the master. Ted's name it not in the credits on the album. I bet he did the work and said he didn't want any sort of credit for it!

From the metallica forum :

RE: Death Magnetic mastering job
mailed-by sterling-sound.com

hide details 10:34 AM (44 minutes ago)


Reply



Thanks for writing.



Iím certainly sympathetic to your reaction, I get to slam my head against that brick wall every day. In this case the mixes were already brick walled before they arrived at my place. Suffice it to say I would never be pushed to overdrive things as far as they are here. Believe me Iím not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else.

Pneuma
09-16-2008, 12:11 PM
More info about the suck-a-tude of this album master\mix...

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/2008/09/metallica-death-magnetic-sounds-better.html

Pneuma
09-16-2008, 12:18 PM
I better get some rep for this one...

In Guitar Hero III the full cd is unmastered!!! Thank God! I will be able to listen to the album!!!
I already purchased the CD so I think I deserve a decent copy.

Search for: GHIII D34DL1N3R

HC_Chief
09-16-2008, 12:20 PM
My bet is they wanted it to sound "gritty", to get back to their "Kill 'em All" roots.... or do so via passive-aggressive mixing as a middle finger to those critics (myself included) who say they've gone soft.

Reaper16
09-16-2008, 11:48 PM
I better get some rep for this one...

In Guitar Hero III the full cd is unmastered!!! Thank God! I will be able to listen to the album!!!
I already purchased the CD so I think I deserve a decent copy.

Search for: GHIII D34DL1N3R
You only get rep from me if you provide me with a non-torrent way to acquire this. ;)

Ultra Peanut
09-17-2008, 12:04 AM
It sounds to me like all of the tracks were laid down properly, this is totally a mix and mastering issue accept for perhaps a bit to much gain on the guitar, but its hard to tell from all of the "edge distortion" goin on in the master. It almost sounds like both the mixing and mastering engineers forgot how to use a compressor.

The dynamics of the kick drum are all over the place, sounds like they stuck Beta 52s in the kick drums and said "this is great, we dont need compression or EQ!" The snare is a train wreck, Usually you try to remove the most unpleasent frequancies of a snare drum, but they decided to turn that part up... the worst part is I can hear the crashes in the snare mic!!! that is just gawd afull. I couldnt comment about the toms, I can barley hear them and when I can all I hear is the mastering distorion. The vocals are soo soo hollow, where are they? Did they track all the vocals with a Samson microphone through a behringer mic pre!? where is the vocal compression? Doubling? verb, delay? do something! Bass sounds like they took the DI and siad "we'll fix that s%*t in the mix" then forgot to fix it. I think without all the two buss clipping the guitars might be okay, but they are still not in the pocket.

So what do you do with a totally horrible mix?! You use massive ammounts of limiting and distort the f*$k out of it. Couldnt get any worse right? WRONG!! If the engineer who masterd this had any self respect he would have told them to go back and remix this train wreck before he took the job, but instead he turned bad in to horrible. Its possable that most of the mix issues could be fixed by a decent master, but in this case all of the worst has been brought out instead. I dont like to wish I'll will on people, but I hope I never hear another recording masterd by this guy. One of the first things a good mastering engineer checks for is "edge distortion"... Edge distortion is the cracking you hear when you phase reverse one of the channels and sum them into mono. This removes all of the information in the center of the immage revealing the massive ammounts of distortion masked by the wide sterio immage (good mixes and masters will not have this). Aparently this guy didnt give much of a crap about any of that. If there wasnt any edge distortion in the mix, he certanly had no trouble creating some. Dont get me wrong, I love a loud Mix/Master, but good grief. Go back to Full Sail and ask for a refund you noob!!

In conclusion, Metallca has finally stepped up to the request of the fans and put out some great rock and roll and you tards had to go and ruin it... GG!! Metallica Is the most popular rock band alive, they dont have to listen to anyone... The record company has no power over this band... matter of fact, Metallica doenst even need a damn record company accpet for distrubution. If James, Kirk and Lars didnt like this crappy mix, they could have stopped it from getting out. They could have gotten some good people on this mix, but they diddnt... Why Metallica, why would you let this happen!? Get me the master files and I'll fix this nightmare for you!

Josh PechetteI have no doubt as to your qualifications, Josh.

DaneMcCloud
09-17-2008, 12:57 AM
I have no doubt as to your qualifications, Josh.

ROFL

Miles
09-17-2008, 01:20 AM
I have no doubt as to your qualifications, Josh.

nice ROFL

Pneuma
09-17-2008, 08:17 AM
You only get rep from me if you provide me with a non-torrent way to acquire this. ;)

Unfortunately there is none since the songs are pulled from a game.

Reaper16
09-17-2008, 03:49 PM
Unfortunately there is none since the songs are pulled from a game.
No chance for a megaupshare link or anything like that?

Taco John
09-18-2008, 02:21 AM
doesn't sound like that to me. to me it sounds like vagina's clapping. That's how awesome

Now THERE'S a chinese proverb to meditate to.

Taco John
09-18-2008, 02:27 AM
This isn't a mix issue. It's a Mastering issue.

This is the bane of my existence.

It's called "2 Buss Limiting" and what's happens is that the entire stereo mix file is sent through a mastering limiter (Waves L1, L2, L3 or Universal Audio Precision Limiter or something similar). It squeezes the audio so tightly that there are no dynamics left. The soft passages are as loud as the loud passages and many older CD player D/A converters can't handle the signal. The result is an incredibly loud file with obvious digital distortion.

Many artists are coming out against the "Loudness Wars" but I'm not surprised that Metallica's record has been mastered this hot because Rick Rubin is well known for over-limiting his records (Californication is a prime example).

It's too bad because this practice can effectively ruin an otherwise good mix.


He's doing it for "artistic" reasons. Surely a band this seasoned knows enough about their music that they're involved in the post-production process. Which could be the problem in the first place. Rick Rubin and a bunch of deaf rockers = massively over-limited album.

brownrusty
09-18-2008, 09:53 AM
I have no doubt as to your qualifications, Josh.

I'm not really sure how to take that.

:clap:

Josh

Ultra Peanut
09-18-2008, 11:36 AM
Pickle! You back!

DaneMcCloud
09-18-2008, 12:07 PM
He's doing it for "artistic" reasons. Surely a band this seasoned knows enough about their music that they're involved in the post-production process. Which could be the problem in the first place. Rick Rubin and a bunch of deaf rockers = massively over-limited album.

Every record Rick's been involved with in the past decade has way too much 2-Buss compression. Californication is nearly un-listenable due to so much digital distortion.

Miles
09-21-2008, 04:08 AM
I finally picked up the album and was hoping that the whole mix thing was overstated. At low volumes or a lesser source like my car it isn't a big deal. Unfortunately when I play it on my stereo or headphone setup it obviously has a reduced dynamic range and is pretty damn fatiguing.

Nightwish
09-24-2008, 03:17 PM
Honestly, unless you're just a stickler for hd-quality sound, I didn't think the sound was all that bad. The drums were pretty bad (and part of that is just Lars getting sloppy in his old age), but the rest was okay. As far as the actual songs, I think this is the best album they've put out since the Black album, possibly since MoP. Stylistically, it reminds me of a cross between those two albums. It's hands down better than anything they've put out since Load on forward.

jagerdrinker
09-24-2008, 03:33 PM
I agree 100%. There are parts on this album that I'm in love with, and then there are some that make me sick. Lars has definitely gotten old, and parts where he should have been pumping out a double-bass ass-whooping, he just lets slide. This is a good album, though, and my 12 year old loves listening to it before football practice.

Deberg_1990
09-24-2008, 05:21 PM
As far as the actual songs, I think this is the best album they've put out since the Black album, possibly since MoP. Stylistically, it reminds me of a cross between those two albums. It's hands down better than anything they've put out since Load on forward.

Yea i agree. I think it rocks and its probably their best in nearly 20 years. Pretty amazing comeback actually. I didnt think they had it in them to be honest.