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wazu
09-11-2008, 06:14 PM
And she nearly busted him on it!

Just saw this posted on Redstate.com, so I went back and watched the original video to confirm.

http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/sep/11/palins-memory-better-than-gibsons-research

==========================================


Palin's memory better than Gibson's research skills?

Ah, he relied on the AP. Silly, silly man.
Posted by: Moe Lane
Thursday, September 11, 2008 at 05:18PM

Let's set the scenario:

GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, "Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God."

PALIN: You know, I don't know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words.

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words when he said -- first, he suggested never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words.

See also Hot Air, which keeps going; and ABC News for the partial transcript. Anyway, her comment actually makes perfect sense, given that what she originally said was (via HuffPo):

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

It was the AP that turned it into this:

"Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

Ahh, the Dread Ellipsis - not to mention, Big Oops on ABC News' part. Come on, guys: we gave you first dibs on the interview everyone was going for. The least that you can do is do some prep work ahead of time for it. Particularly since Hot Air corrected the mistake a week ago. This was pretty much an unforced error.

I mean, AP? Nobody blindly relies on AP anymore.

Moe Lane

PS: I would like to thank Charlie Gibson, by the way: seldom do we get such an obvious tell as this. Anybody spouting this particular exchange as a reason for not voting for the Big Scary Woman can be safely written off as a mindlessly robotic idiot with minimum fuss and muss all around.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 06:18 PM
Well. If true, that reflects very poorly on ABC. They must have had the entire clip and deliberately decided to cut it in a way that looks crazy.

If true, the entire quote above looks very reasonable and level-headed.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 06:19 PM
Are you a moron?

There is no ellipsis there, there are brackets indicated by [] which is standard AP style to indicate the subject that the speaker is talking about when an indirect pronoun is used.

Furthermore, there is no difference between the two quotes. She still indicates that the mission is from God. In fact she is praying for a holy war, by hoping that the mission is from God.

SBK
09-11-2008, 06:19 PM
Well. If true, that reflects very poorly on ABC. They must have had the entire clip and deliberately decided to cut it in a way that looks crazy.

If true, the entire quote above looks very reasonable and level-headed.

SHOCKER.

Charlie's gotta carry Barry's water.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:20 PM
The task from God part is still relevant and she tried to rationalize that in the interview before giving up.

dirk digler
09-11-2008, 06:21 PM
ABC: Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God.

Palin: our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God


Am I missing something? Not that I care either way.

wazu
09-11-2008, 06:21 PM
Are you a moron?

There is no ellipsis there, there are brackets indicated by [] which is standard AP style to indicate the subject that the speaker is talking about when an indirect pronoun is used.

Furthermore, there is no difference between the two quotes. She still indicates that the mission is from God.

Are you a moron? There is no difference between praying that our leaders send our soldiers on a tasks that are from God and actually declaring the tasks to be "from God"? Come on.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:22 PM
I don't get the difference? Praying that it's a task from god or or merely saying that it's a task from god.

I don't get it.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:23 PM
ABC: Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God.

Palin: our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God


Am I missing something? Not that I care either way.

She wasn't saying they were being sent on a task from God, she was asking people to pray that they were being sent on a task from God.

There is a slight difference, but the relevant part was the 'task from God' part, which she tried to rationalize in the interview before saying she didn't know.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Are you a moron? There is no difference between praying that our leaders send our soldiers on a tasks that are from God and actually declaring the tasks to be "from God"? Come on.

She is praying for a Holy War. That is inf*ckingsane.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Well. If true, that reflects very poorly on ABC. They must have had the entire clip and deliberately decided to cut it in a way that looks crazy.

If true, the entire quote above looks very reasonable and level-headed.

How did Charlie mislead? Palin said she didn't think it was her exact words. It was. I have video proof.

More importantly: How does it look level headed?

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Are you a moron? There is no difference between praying that our leaders send our soldiers on a tasks that are from God and actually declaring the tasks to be "from God"? Come on.

Oh, I see what you mean now. Is that the "context" thing that leftists are always harping about?

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:24 PM
I don't get the difference? Praying that it's a task from god or or merely saying that it's a task from god.

I don't get it.

I disagree. One is hoping. The other is a statement of fact.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:24 PM
Are you a moron? There is no difference between praying that our leaders send our soldiers on a tasks that are from God and actually declaring the tasks to be "from God"? Come on.

GWB already said it was from god.

And how exactly is praying for them to be from god different from saying they are from god?

That seems like an awful big cop out.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:25 PM
I disagree. One is hoping. The other is a statement of fact.

And hoping it was a task from god is not as bad as it being a task from god?

Logical
09-11-2008, 06:26 PM
I don't get the difference? Praying that it's a task from god or or merely saying that it's a task from god.

I don't get it.
That is because you are not commited to the Neo-con cause and squarely in the McCain camp. Or you are not a RRWNJ. In the real world it is the same.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:26 PM
I disagree. One is hoping. The other is a statement of fact.

Why exactly should we pray that god sent us on that task? That's Crusades like. That's a jihad. That's a holy war.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:27 PM
I disagree. One is hoping. The other is a statement of fact.

There's really no difference in this context between saying it's true and hoping it's true. The question was about her belief about it being or potentially being a task from God.

Her answer was nothing more than semantics. The "we're on God's side/God's on our side" argument still insinuates a kind of Holy War, which was the point of the question Gibson asked.

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:27 PM
And hoping it was a task from god is not as bad as it being a task from god?

No, I wouldn't say so.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:27 PM
No, I wouldn't say so.

So, tell me, how is this different than a jihad - the kind of thing we wanted to stop after 9/11?

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:28 PM
Why exactly should we pray that god sent us on that task? That's Crusades like. That's a jihad. That's a holy war.

Ask a Christian. I have no idea.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:28 PM
No, I wouldn't say so.

You're arguing the difference between "I know it's a Holy War" and "I hope it's a Holy War".

Neither of those are good.

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:29 PM
So, tell me, how is this different than a jihad - the kind of thing we wanted to stop after 9/11?

Again, ask a Christian.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:29 PM
And, by the way, ABC did no wrong here.

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:29 PM
You're arguing the difference between "I know it's a Holy War" and "I hope it's a Holy War".

Neither of those are good.

I haven't seen or heard Palin say "Holy War."

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:30 PM
Calling all Christians:

How is this different than a jihad or hoping it's a jihad?

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:30 PM
I haven't seen or heard Palin say "Holy War."

God wanting us to go to war with another country is summed up in "Holy War".

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:31 PM
God wanting us to go to war with another country is summed up in "Holy War".

Maybe, I suppose. How do you know that God isn't behind out task, BTW?

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:33 PM
I haven't seen or heard Palin say "Holy War."

If you believe or are hoping you're carrying out God's plan by waging a war, you're doing it on behalf of God. That = Holy War.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 06:33 PM
I looked at it again, and I think I can see ABC's side now. I bet they honestly didnt see the difference between using the smaller clip or the whole thing. I wouldnt be surprised if they decided to be careful, and thought that using the whole video would look crazier and make them look like they (the evil biased media) are unnecessarily "piling on". Maybe they decided to just really quickly get the issue out there, get their answer, and move on.

It probably never occured to them that there was a 2nd subtle meaning to the words based on the earlier omitted sentance, Palin was trying to explain. Palin's explanation made little sence with their clip, but makes more sense with the whole thing.

Its probably just as well though, whole clip and lengthy explanation or shorter clip and murky explanation, I'd probably just take the latter and run with it.

wazu
09-11-2008, 06:33 PM
God wanting us to go to war with another country is summed up in "Holy War".

What country are we at war with?

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:34 PM
Maybe, I suppose. How do you know that God isn't behind out task, BTW?

There is no evidence for a god, so I don't see how it could be behind our task.

However, I would hope he is, because he wouldn't be the loving god everyone else makes him out to be. He'd be the vindictive variety of the OT. The one people like to forget. Much like the Greek Gods who interfered with humans and brought upon wars. Everyone dismisses those ones.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:34 PM
What country are we at war with?

:spock:

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:35 PM
If you believe or are hoping you're carrying out God's plan by waging a war, you're doing it on behalf of God. That = Holy War.

She seems to be hoping that God is on our side, yes. Surely, many folks ask God to bring victory to the Chiefs every Sunday.

Is that "Holy Football"?

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:35 PM
I looked at it again, and I think I can see ABC's side now. I bet they honestly didnt see the difference between using the smaller clip or the whole thing. I wouldnt be surprised if they decided to be careful, and thought that using the whole video would look crazier and make them look like they (the evil biased media) are unnecessarily "piling on". Maybe they decided to just really quickly get the issue out there, get their answer, and move on.

It probably never occured to them that there was a 2nd subtle meaning to the words based on the earlier omitted sentance, Palin was trying to explain. Palin's explanation made little sence with their clip, but makes more sense with the whole thing.

Its probably just as well though, whole clip and lengthy explanation or shorter clip and murky explanation, I'd probably just take the latter and run with it.

So, you liked the "I'm channelling Lincoln" part?

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 06:36 PM
She seems to be hoping that God is on our side, yes. Surely, many folks ask God to bring victory to the Chiefs every Sunday.

Is that "Holy Football"?

The latter is sheer idiocy, the former is insanity.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:36 PM
She seems to be hoping that God is on our side, yes. Surely, many folks ask God to bring victory to the Chiefs every Sunday.

Is that "Holy Football"?

No, that's just stupidity. (As if the Holy war isn't :p)

It's funny because they'll all tell you god doesn't interfere because he doesn't want to expose himself and make everyone certain he's there because then they wouldn't have to have faith.

But then he's always on your side looking out for you.

It's a strange paradox.

VAChief
09-11-2008, 06:37 PM
Calling all Christians:

How is this different than a jihad or hoping it's a jihad?

I get the distinction they are trying to make, but as a Christian I feel more compelled to pray for the safety of the men and women who are in our armed forces. I think that was what she was trying to say.

The dangerous part is when you start injecting "God's will" into secular and military pursuits it often implies the highest stamp of approval on decisions of human beings.

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:37 PM
The latter is sheer idiocy, the former is insanity.

Meh. I don't really care either way.

People have been praying and asking for God's support in warfare since the beginning of time.

I'd be willing to bet that it averages out to 50/50.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:38 PM
I get the distinction they are trying to make, but as a Christian I feel more compelled to pray for the safety of the men and women who are in our armed forces. I think that was what she was trying to say.

The dangerous part is when you start injecting "God's will" into secular and military pursuits it often implies the highest stamp of approval on decisions of human beings.

You didn't answer the question, or at best, you danced around it.

What is the difference between hoping the war is a task from god and hoping that running planes in buildings is a task from god?

alnorth
09-11-2008, 06:38 PM
So, you liked the "I'm channelling Lincoln" part?

What I'm saying is that ABC may not have known that the first part was relevant at all. Without that first part, Palin's explanation makes little sense.

However, I also think that it wouldnt have looked much better, so I'll just take the shorter clip and run to the next question. To hell with taking a stance against ABC for being deceptive and demanding her full speech and explanation be aired and understood, since its not really helpful

wazu
09-11-2008, 06:39 PM
I looked at it again, and I think I can see ABC's side now. I bet they honestly didnt see the difference between using the smaller clip or the whole thing. I wouldnt be surprised if they decided to be careful, and thought that using the whole video would look crazier and make them look like they (the evil biased media) are unnecessarily "piling on". Maybe they decided to just really quickly get the issue out there, get their answer, and move on.

It probably never occured to them that there was a 2nd subtle meaning to the words based on the earlier omitted sentance, Palin was trying to explain. Palin's explanation made little sence with their clip, but makes more sense with the whole thing.

Its probably just as well though, whole clip and lengthy explanation or shorter clip and murky explanation, I'd probably just take the latter and run with it.

B.S. They read only a part of the quote so that it sounds like a declaration that our soldiers are doing God's work. There is a big difference from declaring they are doing God's work and humbly urging other's to pray that they are doing God's work.

Compound that with him cutting her off with a terse "Exact words." and it becomes even more infuriating. Come on, ABC.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:39 PM
She seems to be hoping that God is on our side

No, not just on God's side. She's praying that we are carrying out God's plan. Therefore, it's being done on behalf of God with the justification that it's a task from God.

Believing or hoping that the war you're waging is a task from God = Holy War.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:41 PM
B.S. They read only a part of the quote so that it sounds like a declaration that our soldiers are doing God's work. There is a big difference from declaring they are doing God's work and humbly urging other's to pray that they are doing God's work.

Compound that with him cutting her off with a terse "Exact words." and it becomes even more infuriating. Come on, ABC.

Please, tell me, what the difference is? Jihadists hope they are doing God's will too. I guess 9/11 is okay in that light?

And there is nothing misleading about Exact words. Those are her exact words. Nothing is changed.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 06:42 PM
Adam::Sarah Palin

as

GOATSE :: Carrie Underwood

alnorth
09-11-2008, 06:43 PM
Jihadists hope they are doing God's will too.

Really? They dont claim to "hope" anything regarding the wishes of God/Allah/invisible man in the sky.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:44 PM
Adam::Sarah Palin

as

GOATSE :: Carrie Underwood

It's funny, if you remove Palin from the ticket, he's not Republican. He's actually objective and fair. Put Palin in and he's partisan as can be. Almost to the point of absurdity: like this thread.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:44 PM
Really? They dont claim to "hope" anything regarding the wishes of God/Allah/invisible man in the sky.

?

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:48 PM
Please, tell me, what the difference is? Jihadists hope they are doing God's will too. I guess 9/11 is okay in that light?

And there is nothing misleading about Exact words. Those are her exact words. Nothing is changed.

If I'm not mistaken, the basis of jihad is that it must be against the infidel. I don't see or hear Palin saying, "Pray that God will give us strength to kill the Muslim."

alnorth
09-11-2008, 06:49 PM
?

Well, it may be a meaningless distinction to your point, but Jihadists pretty much "know" that we are evil infidels who should be punished.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:50 PM
Well, it may be a meaningless distinction to your point, but Jihadists pretty much "know" that we are evil infidels who should be punished.

There's no difference in this context between knowing you are and hoping you are.

Silock
09-11-2008, 06:51 PM
The difference is that in one, you're praying that God sends you on a Holy War. In the other, you're praying for God's guidance that what you're doing is the right thing. And if you get the sense that it's NOT God's will, you should stop and seriously re-evaluate your actions.

IMO, there's a difference between asking for guidance and asking for justification.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:52 PM
Holy shit, I should probably watch the whole interview. LMAO

"GIBSON: Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?

PALIN: In what respect, Charlie?

GIBSON: The Bush -- well, what do you -- what do you interpret it to be?

PALIN: His world view.

GIBSON: No, the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq war.

PALIN: I believe that what President Bush has attempted to do is rid this world of Islamic extremism, terrorists who are hell bent on destroying our nation. There have been blunders along the way, though. There have been mistakes made. And with new leadership, and that's the beauty of American elections, of course, and democracy, is with new leadership comes opportunity to do things better.

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: Charlie, if there is legitimate and enough intelligence that tells us that a strike is imminent against American people, we have every right to defend our country. In fact, the president has the obligation, the duty to defend."

She's going to have a rough rough time in the debates. This is simple stuff.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:56 PM
Well, it may be a meaningless distinction to your point, but Jihadists pretty much "know" that we are evil infidels who should be punished.

And in that same vein isn't it the same to hope for the same end?

Does it really matter if you hope or if you know and still commit the same act?

BucEyedPea
09-11-2008, 06:56 PM
Heh! Haven't men yet learned women never forget? :D

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 06:57 PM
The difference is that in one, you're praying that God sends you on a Holy War. In the other, you're praying for God's guidance that what you're doing is the right thing.

She was praying that the war the soldiers were being sent in to was a task from God. It's her exact quote.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 06:57 PM
The difference is that in one, you're praying that God sends you on a Holy War. In the other, you're praying for God's guidance that what you're doing is the right thing. And if you get the sense that it's NOT God's will, you should stop and seriously re-evaluate your actions.

IMO, there's a difference between asking for guidance and asking for justification.

No where did she ask for guidance. She asked for people to pray that this was a task from god.

That's not guidance.

Donger
09-11-2008, 06:57 PM
Holy shit, I should probably watch the whole interview. LMAO

"GIBSON: Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?

PALIN: In what respect, Charlie?

GIBSON: The Bush -- well, what do you -- what do you interpret it to be?

PALIN: His world view.

GIBSON: No, the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq war.

PALIN: I believe that what President Bush has attempted to do is rid this world of Islamic extremism, terrorists who are hell bent on destroying our nation. There have been blunders along the way, though. There have been mistakes made. And with new leadership, and that's the beauty of American elections, of course, and democracy, is with new leadership comes opportunity to do things better.

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: Charlie, if there is legitimate and enough intelligence that tells us that a strike is imminent against American people, we have every right to defend our country. In fact, the president has the obligation, the duty to defend."

She's going to have a rough rough time in the debates. This is simple stuff.

Didn't the Bush Doctrine originally mean that we'd treat any nation-state that harbored terrorists as an enemy, and that it kind of morphed in pre-emptivism?

Silock
09-11-2008, 07:00 PM
No where did she ask for guidance. She asked for people to pray that this was a task from god.

That's not guidance.

Yes, it is.

"To make sure that that task is from God" sounds a lot like asking to make sure it's the right thing.

The thing is, though, that in quotes like this, it's nearly impossible to determine intent, as there is no objective measure. Your views will definitely color your bias one way or the other.

Still, it's not as though she's the first politician who's ever said something like this. But because of the religious right hijacking the Republican party, it's become a hot-button issue.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 07:02 PM
Yes, it is.

"To make sure that that task is from God" sounds a lot like asking to make sure it's the right thing.

The thing is, though, that in quotes like this, it's nearly impossible to determine intent, as there is no objective measure. Your views will definitely color your bias one way or the other.

Still, it's not as though she's the first politician who's ever said something like this. But because of the religious right hijacking the Republican party, it's become a hot-button issue.

You just merged two quotes together.

our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God,

Those are the exact words for the task part.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 07:03 PM
She was praying that the war the soldiers were being sent in to was a task from God. It's her exact quote.

The important thing is that most christians likely believe everything, no matter how trivial, is for or against God's will. This may seem crazy to the non-religious, but if you accept their basic view of God, then obviously God has an opinion about the war. Its reasonable for them to pray that they arent pissing him off.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 07:03 PM
I'd also like to see Gibson ask her if she supports the Weinberger or Rumsfeld Doctrine and why.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 07:04 PM
The important thing is that most christians likely believe everything, no matter how trivial, is for or against God's will. This may seem crazy to the non-religious, but if you accept their basic view of God, then obviously God has an opinion about the war. Its reasonable for them to pray that they arent pissing him off.

And that's why they shouldn't be in office. Period.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 07:05 PM
I'd also like to see Gibson ask her if she supports the Weinberger or Rumsfeld Doctrine and why.

I suspect that he has dispatched foreign issues, and will probably focus on.... lets see, two interviews left? I'll predict one is about Alaska scandals, and the other is about domestic issues.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 07:06 PM
And that's why they shouldn't be in office. Period.

Then I suggest you move to secular nation, because you currently do not live in one.

Properly explained, this whole issue is not going to alarm the voters.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 07:07 PM
I just can't fathom how incompetence and dim-wittedness is tolerated to this extent by our future elected officials.

orange
09-11-2008, 07:12 PM
And in that same vein isn't it the same to hope for the same end?

Does it really matter if you hope or if you know and still commit the same act?

[This particular message was chosen to quote because it's a very succinct version of a point several are making - not that I want to single this one out]

“Lord — Protect my family and me,” reads the note published in the Maariv daily. “Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will.”

Did the man who made that prayer just say that he IS an instrument of God's will?

Silock
09-11-2008, 07:14 PM
You just merged two quotes together.



Those are the exact words for the task part.

But you left out the first sentence, which is entirely relevant to the second, as the second sentence is an incomplete sentence.

CHIEF4EVER
09-11-2008, 07:16 PM
I just can't fathom how incompetence and dim-wittedness is tolerated to this extent by our future elected officials.

It is a good thing for the country that the vast majority of our citizens aren't mouthbreathing bigoted hatemongers like you and IJH. :evil:

Silock
09-11-2008, 07:16 PM
[This particular message was chosen to quote because it's a very succinct version of a point several are making - not that I want to single this one out]

“Lord — Protect my family and me,” reads the note published in the Maariv daily. “Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will.”

Did the man who made that prayer just say that he IS an instrument of God's will?

I think their interpretation will depend entirely upon whom they believe made that statement. I know who made it, and so do you, but they'll make excuses for that person if they know.

And the answer is "Of course not."

VAChief
09-11-2008, 07:16 PM
Then I suggest you move to secular nation, because you currently do not live in one.

Properly explained, this whole issue is not going to alarm the voters.

This was her best "coached" response. She had a week to prepare for these types of questions. I suspect what lies deeper is more disturbing than what she regurgitated in this interview.

Reagan feigned religious beliefs to woo the moral majority. McCain, Clinton, I suspect Obama as well to some extent have done the same. I think she has to do the opposite, tone down her true beliefs because they scare the crap out of people who don't want any part of those beliefs intervening in the decisions that affect their own lives.

Donger
09-11-2008, 07:20 PM
I just can't fathom how incompetence and dim-wittedness is tolerated to this extent by our future elected officials.

I suppose "Goddamn America" is better in your eyes?

patteeu
09-11-2008, 07:22 PM
Are you a moron?

There is no ellipsis there, there are brackets indicated by [] which is standard AP style to indicate the subject that the speaker is talking about when an indirect pronoun is used.

Furthermore, there is no difference between the two quotes. She still indicates that the mission is from God. In fact she is praying for a holy war, by hoping that the mission is from God.

Your last paragraph makes your first paragraph pretty darned ironic.

VAChief
09-11-2008, 07:23 PM
I suppose "Goddamn America" is better in your eyes?

How about "I'm not an American I'm an Alaskan!" That was a good one too.

patteeu
09-11-2008, 07:32 PM
[This particular message was chosen to quote because it's a very succinct version of a point several are making - not that I want to single this one out]

“Lord — Protect my family and me,” reads the note published in the Maariv daily. “Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will.”

Did the man who made that prayer just say that he IS an instrument of God's will?

Well, he did say "me an instrument of [God's] will" didn't he? /irishjayhawk

Cannibal
09-11-2008, 07:35 PM
And she nearly busted him on it!

Just saw this posted on Redstate.com, so I went back and watched the original video to confirm.

http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/sep/11/palins-memory-better-than-gibsons-research

==========================================


Palin's memory better than Gibson's research skills?

Ah, he relied on the AP. Silly, silly man.
Posted by: Moe Lane
Thursday, September 11, 2008 at 05:18PM

Let's set the scenario:


See also Hot Air, which keeps going; and ABC News for the partial transcript. Anyway, her comment actually makes perfect sense, given that what she originally said was (via HuffPo):



It was the AP that turned it into this:



Ahh, the Dread Ellipsis - not to mention, Big Oops on ABC News' part. Come on, guys: we gave you first dibs on the interview everyone was going for. The least that you can do is do some prep work ahead of time for it. Particularly since Hot Air corrected the mistake a week ago. This was pretty much an unforced error.

I mean, AP? Nobody blindly relies on AP anymore.

Moe Lane

PS: I would like to thank Charlie Gibson, by the way: seldom do we get such an obvious tell as this. Anybody spouting this particular exchange as a reason for not voting for the Big Scary Woman can be safely written off as a mindlessly robotic idiot with minimum fuss and muss all around.

Are you sure you were a Ron Paul guy? I mean Ron Paul even thinks this b!tch is batsh!t crazy and not ready for primetime. The more I read of you, the more I can't believe you were a Ron Paul supporter.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 07:39 PM
The more I read of you, the more I can't believe you were a Ron Paul supporter.

Owned.

Adam was all about Palin before he even heard anything about her foreign policy stances, which make Ron Paul cringe.

wazu
09-11-2008, 07:44 PM
If the election were Ron Paul vs. Sarah Palin, I'd still vote for Ron Paul. And I actually am a little disappointed to hear her adopting the McCain/Obama foreign policy.

But knowing that there is zero chance of Ron Paul ever making it to the presidency, I am generally supportive of candidates who are very fiscally conservative. Another candidate like this would be Mark Sanford. He's not "Ron Paul" caliber, either, but he's a massive improvement over what I see out of most Republican leaders.

HolmeZz
09-11-2008, 07:45 PM
If the election were Ron Paul vs. Sarah Palin, I'd still vote for Ron Paul. And I actually am a little disappointed to hear her adopting the McCain/Obama foreign policy.

But knowing that there is zero chance of Ron Paul ever making it to the presidency, I am generally supportive of candidates who are very fiscally conservative.

So Sarah Palin is 0 for 2 in your book.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 08:00 PM
I suppose "Goddamn America" is better in your eyes?

I forgot Rev. Wright was running for President.

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:04 PM
I forgot Rev. Wright was running for President.

I didn't realize that Palin was, either.

L.A. Chieffan
09-11-2008, 08:05 PM
Palin makes Cheney look like Ed Begley Jr.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 08:05 PM
I didn't realize that Palin was, either.

No, she's just a cocaine heartbeat away.

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:07 PM
I didn't realize that Palin was, either.

She's on the ticket.

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:07 PM
No, she's just a cocaine heartbeat away.

The more I learn about her, the less of a concern that is.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 08:09 PM
The more I learn about her, the less of a concern that is.

Yeah, I mean it's not like she's unable to articulate basic elements of foreign policy. After all, she is a Republican.

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:09 PM
The more I learn about her, the less of a concern that is.

So you think it's likely she'll be president.

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I mean it's not like she's unable to articulate basic elements of foreign policy. After all, she is a Republican.

She seemed to do rather well with regard to NATO, IMO. Better than than most folks here, anyway.

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:18 PM
So you think it's likely she'll be president.

Probably in 2016.

L.A. Chieffan
09-11-2008, 08:19 PM
Probably in 2016.

You don't win much at prop bets do you?

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:21 PM
She seemed to do rather well with regard to NATO, IMO. Better than than most folks here, anyway.


Well thank God the woman vying for the spot that's a heart attack away from President knows more than most the folks on a chiefs bulletin board

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:21 PM
Well thank God the woman vying for the spot that's a heart attack away from President knows more than most the folks on a chiefs bulletin board

Indeed.

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:25 PM
Probably in 2016.

After O'bamas 2 terms I doubt they'll go back to republican

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 08:30 PM
She seemed to do rather well with regard to NATO, IMO. Better than than most folks here, anyway.

And horrendously worse than most everyone on the fundamental foreign policy doctrine of the current administration.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Indeed.

Look ma, a dumbass!!

Can I feed it?

NewChief
09-11-2008, 08:31 PM
And horrendously worse than most everyone on the fundamental foreign policy doctrine of the current administration.

She probably got confused since her handlers told her to plead ignorance and distance herself anytime Bush came up during the interview.

I can see it now. It will probably be marched out as a talking point for the Cons tomorrow:

"See how much we aren't like Bush? Sarah Palin doesn't even know what the Bush doctrine is!"

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:35 PM
And horrendously worse than most everyone on the fundamental foreign policy doctrine of the current administration.

Barack Hussein's too. Are you forgetting that?

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:37 PM
Barack Hussein's too. Are you forgetting that?

wha?

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:37 PM
wha?

Barack Hussein supports Georgia's introduction into NATO.

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:39 PM
Barack Hussein supports Georgia's introduction into NATO.


so the current regime doesn't support Georgia getting into NATO

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:40 PM
so the current regime doesn't support Georgia getting into NATO

To the best of my knowledge, the Bush administration supports the same.

Is that "change I can believe in" or not?

J Diddy
09-11-2008, 08:41 PM
To the best of my knowledge, the Bush administration supports the same.

Is that "change I can believe in" or not?

What does that have to do with her doing "horrendously worse"?

Donger
09-11-2008, 08:47 PM
What does that have to do with her doing "horrendously worse"?

If "horrendously worse" includes Barack Hussein agreeing with Palin, nothing.

Nothing at all.

NewChief
09-11-2008, 08:49 PM
Barack Hussein's too. Are you forgetting that?

I think you're confusing your threads. Hamas is talking about her apparent ignorance of the Bush Doctrine.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 09:50 PM
update: Looks like abc has acknowledged the OP's complaints. In the prime time re-airing, they re-did the God part to fully show her speech, took out the "your exact words" bit, and let Palin explain exactly what she was trying to say in a context that made more sense.

Whether that actually helps or not, who knows.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-11-2008, 10:09 PM
Barack Hussein's too. Are you forgetting that?

Obama doesn't know what the Bush Doctrine is? Nice try.

irishjayhawk
09-11-2008, 11:53 PM
But you left out the first sentence, which is entirely relevant to the second, as the second sentence is an incomplete sentence.

Except for the fact that it still doesn't prove your point, but rather proves mine.

Praying that our task is a task from god is in no way guidance. Period.

That's not guidance it's asking for it to be a jihad; a holy war.

alnorth
09-11-2008, 11:57 PM
Except for the fact that it still doesn't prove your point, but rather proves mine.

Praying that our task is a task from god is in no way guidance. Period.

That's not guidance it's asking for it to be a jihad; a holy war.

I started to reply a few times, and finally said screw it. I dont want to defend religion anymore, I'll let the religious do it. For myself, I dont see Palin's action here as high on the kook-o-meter, she's pretty much harmless mainstream christian to my view.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 12:00 AM
I started to reply a few times, and finally said screw it. I dont want to defend religion anymore, I'll let the religious do it. For myself, I dont see Palin's action here as high on the kook-o-meter, she's pretty much harmless mainstream christian to my view.

Trojan horses usually appear harmless. ;)

And re moving to a secular nation: I really firmly believe that in one of the two next generations religion will have been relegated to the sidelines like in much of Europe.

But I cannot let someone stand by and justify someone praying for or knowing that we're in a Holy War. Because it just means they validated 9/11. Period. A jihad is a jihad. Regardless of religion.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 12:01 AM
update: Looks like abc has acknowledged the OP's complaints. In the prime time re-airing, they re-did the God part to fully show her speech, took out the "your exact words" bit, and let Palin explain exactly what she was trying to say in a context that made more sense.

Whether that actually helps or not, who knows.

Boooooooooooo.

It was clear as it was. And she never mentioned Lincoln in the video she originally said things about. And then conveniently she invokes him. Why can no one see through the bs?

Silock
09-12-2008, 12:10 AM
Except for the fact that it still doesn't prove your point, but rather proves mine.

Praying that our task is a task from god is in no way guidance. Period.

That's not guidance it's asking for it to be a jihad; a holy war.

No, it's not, but perhaps you're not familiar with the way prayers are usually phrased. It is different, in my opinion.

When you pray that "something be a certain way," it's not necessarily an endorsement of that position, but is more of a "tell me that this is the right thing, because it may not be so."

But hey, you hate Christians, so go ahead and see it your way. Makes no difference to me, because you'll never change your opinion no matter what I say.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 12:14 AM
No, it's not, but perhaps you're not familiar with the way prayers are usually phrased. It is different, in my opinion.

When you pray that "something be a certain way," it's not necessarily an endorsement of that position, but is more of a "tell me that this is the right thing, because it may not be so."

But hey, you hate Christians, so go ahead and see it your way. Makes no difference to me, because you'll never change your opinion no matter what I say.

So, the act of praying changes all context of anything you say?

How can praying that this be a task from god be good even if she's not endorsing the position? She wants it to be a task from god. I don't see how you can distort it. She is asking for people to pray that his was a task from god. (That her son is doing god's work, essentially.) And if that's the case she's praying that this is, indeed, a holy war.

It doesn't matter what denomination or faith you are. That's the facts of the case and what she said. Plain and simple.

Silock
09-12-2008, 12:24 AM
How can praying that this be a task from god be good even if she's not endorsing the position? She wants it to be a task from god. I don't see how you can distort it. She is asking for people to pray that his was a task from god. (That her son is doing god's work, essentially.) And if that's the case she's praying that this is, indeed, a holy war.

Let's just say you believe there's a God. Would you praying about something make it the case? Would it change God's mind? No.

In this context, when someone asks to pray that something be a certain way, it's usually meant as a "pray that this is the right path." Maybe she didn't mean that, but in my experience, that's the way it is meant when those words are put in that context (to "pray that something be a certain way," not praying for war).

I don't know how I can explain it more clearly than that. Perhaps someone else can, although I doubt it will make any difference because you always see things the way you want to and no one EVER changes your mind on anything. It's pointless to even try and discuss these things reasonably with you because you refuse to try and see it any way but your own.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 12:32 AM
Let's just say you believe there's a God. Would you praying about something make it the case? Would it change God's mind? No.

You're not going to grant that there are people who believe the answer is yes?


In this context, when someone asks to pray that something be a certain way, it's usually meant as a "pray that this is the right path." Maybe she didn't mean that, but in my experience, that's the way it is meant when those words are put in that context (to "pray that something be a certain way," not praying for war).

She's praying that the war is from god? Got ya. Pray that we followed god's plan by going to war? Got ya.


I don't know how I can explain it more clearly than that. Perhaps someone else can, although I doubt it will make any difference because you always see things the way you want to and no one EVER changes your mind on anything. It's pointless to even try and discuss these things reasonably with you because you refuse to try and see it any way but your own.

I fail to see another interpretation than "pray that we are on a task from god". I don't see how that can be taken in the context you keep defending it.

Someone, please chime in, am I off my rocker?

Silock
09-12-2008, 12:36 AM
You're not going to grant that there are people who believe the answer is yes?

Sure, but I don't believe the Bible says it works like that, and neither do the people I know. Some may see it differently.

She's praying that the war is from god? Got ya. Pray that we followed god's plan by going to war? Got ya.

And taking that a step further, if it's NOT God's plan, then it needs some serious re-evaluation.

I fail to see another interpretation than "pray that we are on a task from god". I don't see how that can be taken in the context you keep defending it.

I know you can't. That's why I hate trying to have a reasonable discussion with you.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 12:42 AM
Sure, but I don't believe the Bible says it works like that, and neither do the people I know. Some may see it differently.

Fair enough. I would ask you many questions about the Bible but I am tired and don't want to go down that path.



And taking that a step further, if it's NOT God's plan, then it needs some serious re-evaluation.

:spock:



I know you can't. That's why I hate trying to have a reasonable discussion with you.

ROFL

Oh the irony of you telling me I won't accept your assertion but you not accepting mine.

The proof is in the words:

Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."


1) Pray that our leaders are sending us out on a task that is from God.

Therefore, it inherently says she is hoping that god sent us to war with Iraq. Even if it says that God applauds such war but didn't dictate us to go there doesn't make matters any better. In fact, that would shed doubt on the whole notion of god. What ever happened to his commandments?

2) We have to make sure we're praying for - that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan.

So, even if it isn't a task from God, let's pray it's part of his grand plan. Because that's so much better.



I just don't see how you can twist it any other way. I've covered all bases working with what she said.

Silock
09-12-2008, 12:52 AM
Oh the irony of you telling me I won't accept your assertion but you not accepting mine.

Again, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not asking you to think the way I do. I don't demand that *anyone* see the world the way I do. However, what I do ask is that if you're going to try and have a real discussion with me, that you truly try and see things from my perspective, and I will do the same. It's fine for us to disagree; I certainly don't mind that. What I can't stand is when people refuse to see things from any perspective but their own. A good debate requires an open mind on both sides. I try to have an open mind whenever I enter a discussion, even though sometimes I fail to do so.

I fully grasp what you're saying, and I understand how you came to your conclusion. I disagree with it, though, based upon my experience with how people phrase public prayers. I even acknowledged that what you say may be accurate. She might actually feel that way. Based upon other things she's said, though, I don't think she does, and short of being inside her head, no one will ever really know.

1) Pray that our leaders are sending us out on a task that is from God.

Therefore, it inherently says she is hoping that god sent us to war with Iraq. Even if it says that God applauds such war but didn't dictate us to go there doesn't make matters any better. In fact, that would shed doubt on the whole notion of god. What ever happened to his commandments?

I still don't think you understand what I'm trying to communicate to you, and that may be my fault, so I'll try again. Just because someone says that they "pray something is a certain way," it doesn't mean that they necessarily want it to be so. If I move to Virginia, and ask that someone pray that me moving is God's plan, that doesn't mean I want them to change God's mind and make it the right plan. It means that want them to pray that I am doing the right thing in accordance with God's plan. It's not a literal thing, and I think that's where it gets confusing for people that aren't familiar with the phrasing.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 12:57 AM
I still don't think you understand what I'm trying to communicate to you, and that may be my fault, so I'll try again. Just because someone says that they "pray something is a certain way," it doesn't mean that they necessarily want it to be so. If I move to Virginia, and ask that someone pray that me moving is God's plan, that doesn't mean I want them to change God's mind and make it the right plan. It means that want them to pray that I am doing the right thing in accordance with God's plan. It's not a literal thing, and I think that's where it gets confusing for people that aren't familiar with the phrasing.

I understand that. I just don't see the difference between praying for it being a task from god and praying that our war is in accordance with God's plan. I've read the Bible and been a catholic for 15 years. I just don't see how that's any difference knowing what I know about religion and how God is. I mean he made the 10 commandments and he flooded the world because of all the fighting and wars. How can this war every be in accordance with his plans when we know that his plans (via the Bible) are that of pacifism unless in self defense.

If we are to take out all of the religious context surrounding such a distinction as you are making, I would agree. However, as you have argued before, context is everything.

How is there a difference between the two knowing the Bible which is the "word of god"?

Silock
09-12-2008, 01:06 AM
How can this war every be in accordance with his plans when we know that his plans (via the Bible) are that of pacifism unless in self defense.

According to the Old Testament, there were plenty of wars that weren't in self-defense. There were many times that the Israelites were commanded to conduct wars of genocide.

How is there a difference between the two knowing the Bible which is the "word of god"?

Like I said -- no one will ever know what she meant. I can only theorize based upon my experience and what I know of her other religious statements, and how she clarified it.

There is no objective yardstick by which one may measure her statement.

Ultra Peanut
09-12-2008, 02:11 AM
Listen, if Charlie ****in' Gibson is causing problems, I fail to see how she's going to stand up to two months of non-fluff interview engagements.

Silock
09-12-2008, 02:15 AM
Listen, if Charlie ****in' Gibson is causing problems, I fail to see how she's going to stand up to two months of non-fluff interview engagements.

I agree.

The debates are going to be REALLY interesting.

Although, who knows what can happen by then. It's only been 2 weeks since she's been thrust into this role. We'll see how good her coaches are.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-12-2008, 02:56 AM
I agree.

The debates are going to be REALLY interesting.

Although, who knows what can happen by then. It's only been 2 weeks since she's been thrust into this role. We'll see how good her coaches are.

It's gonna be just like I said before her convention speech. She's on a 10%=A curve. She'll be given even more leeway for dumbassery than Bush, and the low-foreheaded drones will laud over her ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence.

patteeu
09-12-2008, 06:56 AM
Obama doesn't know what the Bush Doctrine is? Nice try.

It didn't sound like it last December (http://www.cfr.org/publication/14965/democratic_debate_transcript_npr.html?breadcrumb=%2Fbios%2F1451_joseph_r_biden_jr):

Well, I think one of the things about the Obama Doctrine is it's not going to be as doctrinaire as the Bush Doctrine because the world is complicated. - Obama, dem primary debate 12/04/07

LMAO

patteeu
09-12-2008, 07:02 AM
Boooooooooooo.

It was clear as it was. And she never mentioned Lincoln in the video she originally said things about. And then conveniently she invokes him. Why can no one see through the bs?

I don't have to mention Kennedy to be echoing his sentiments when I say "Don't ask your country to do stuff for you. Instead, you ought to think about what you can do for your country." See how that works?

patteeu
09-12-2008, 07:07 AM
So, the act of praying changes all context of anything you say?

How can praying that this be a task from god be good even if she's not endorsing the position? She wants it to be a task from god. I don't see how you can distort it. She is asking for people to pray that his was a task from god. (That her son is doing god's work, essentially.) And if that's the case she's praying that this is, indeed, a holy war.

It doesn't matter what denomination or faith you are. That's the facts of the case and what she said. Plain and simple.

Do you ever get anything involving religion right? It's like you've been hypnotized and programmed to make a fool of yourself every time someone mentions God. Religious people pray. It's just what they do. It doesn't change the nature of this war and it doesn't mean that she literally hears God's voice in her head telling her to do crazy shit.

Chiefnj2
09-12-2008, 08:36 AM
Passing it off as a reference to Abraham Lincoln was really weak. The strategists should have thought of a better excuse to give her.

L.A. Chieffan
09-12-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't have to mention Kennedy to be echoing his sentiments when I say "Don't ask your country to do stuff for you. Instead, you ought to think about what you can do for your country." See how that works?

You're right. When I hear the words ''WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE BABY, NOW YOU'RE GONNA DIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!",

I think about Sarah. Thanks Pat

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 10:01 AM
Do you ever get anything involving religion right? It's like you've been hypnotized and programmed to make a fool of yourself every time someone mentions God. Religious people pray. It's just what they do. It doesn't change the nature of this war and it doesn't mean that she literally hears God's voice in her head telling her to do crazy shit.

Hahahaahhaa. That's not what she said nor what I said.

He was praying for this to be a holy war. Praying that this war was in God's plan. That means she's praying that this is a jihad.

Plain and simple.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 10:02 AM
I don't have to mention Kennedy to be echoing his sentiments when I say "Don't ask your country to do stuff for you. Instead, you ought to think about what you can do for your country." See how that works?

ROFL

You will rationalize anything. If you can name where she channelled Lincoln in the original video, I'll grant you it.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 10:10 AM
Do you ever get anything involving religion right? It's like you've been hypnotized and programmed to make a fool of yourself every time someone mentions God. Religious people pray. It's just what they do. It doesn't change the nature of this war and it doesn't mean that she literally hears God's voice in her head telling her to do crazy shit.

Also, it occurred to me that you think my problem here is her actually praying. It's not. It's what's she's praying for.

It's the same as the 9/11 terrorists praying they're doing God's work too when the fly planes into buildings.


On the other hand, pat, please let me know when the efficacy of prayer reaches a good number and gets proven results. So, while the praying aspect is not on the top of my list here in this thread, it very well could be because it's the same as hoping for.

Silock
09-12-2008, 01:16 PM
Hahahaahhaa. That's not what she said nor what I said.

He was praying for this to be a holy war. Praying that this war was in God's plan. That means she's praying that this is a jihad.

Plain and simple.

In your opinion. There are quite a few others who see it differently than you do.

orange
09-12-2008, 02:30 PM
PRESIDENTS LINCOLN & KENNEDY - GOD AND GOVERNMENT SERVICE

Liberal pundits and bloggers are attacking Governor Palin for comments she made to a Church Congregation.

What Palin said was this,

“Pray for our Military men and woman who are striving to do what is also right for this Country. Pray that our leaders, our National Leaders, are sending them on a task that is from God. That is what we must pray for. That there is a plan and that plan is God’s plan. So bless them with your prayers - prayers and protection over our soldiers.” You can watch Governor’s Palin’s comments here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H-btXPfhGs

Governor Palin does not refer to the War in Iraq as “God’s War” or a “Holy War”. She asked that a prayer be said that the “task” the soldiers were being asked to perform was a “task” that God approved of. That the congregation pray that our National Leaders had a plan, and that God approved of that Plan.

Somehow the liberal pundits and the hateful bloggers interpret these comments as referencing a “Holy War” or “God’s War”. How strange. Her meaning is clear enough. Of course, there is a very high probability, that these detractors really know there is no substance to their rants.

Governor Palin has explained that she was attempting to reference Abraham Lincoln with her comments. Lincoln’s famous quote in this regard was, “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”

President Lincoln also said, “In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong.” http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/abraham_lincoln.html

Lincoln’s concern - am I on God’s side. He acknowledged that both sides may claim to be on God’s side - and one would be wrong.

President John F Kennedy once stated, “Our goal is not victory of might but the vindication of right — not peace at the expense of freedom, but both peace and freedom, here in this hemisphere and, we hope, around the world. God willing, that goal will be achieved.”
President Kennedy also stated, “The supreme reality of our time is our indivisibility as children of God and the common vulnerability of this planet. Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.” http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy

Kennedy’s themes - right not might, peace not at the expense of freedom but peace with freedom, that we are all children of God, we should ask his blessing and His help and that God’s work must truly be our own.

It maybe just that the Obama surrogates, Liberal Pundits and hateful bloggers detest references to God. They are clearly misrepresenting the context of Governor Palin’s message.

Her message was a simple one, not complex or convoluted. Her message is one that would have been shared by both Lincoln and Kennedy: We are children of God, We should ask his blessings in our endeavors, that it time of war - the question is not “is God on my side” - rather we should pray that our actions meet with his approval.

http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/sarah-palins-actual-words-on-the-iraq-war-god-prayer-and-our-troops/

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 02:32 PM
In your opinion. There are quite a few others who see it differently than you do.

That may be true, but Pat's post had nothing to do with either view. In fact, I'm not sure what it had to do with other than saying I'm not a fan of prayer so I won't get it.

patteeu
09-12-2008, 03:39 PM
That may be true, but Pat's post had nothing to do with either view. In fact, I'm not sure what it had to do with other than saying I'm not a fan of prayer so I won't get it.

Did you see orange's post?

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 03:43 PM
Did you see orange's post?

Yes, and it takes the exact same stupid line of logic you and others have been taking.

Somehow asking that the war be approved by god or in accordance with God's plan is not the same as saying it's a war from god. Mind blowing.

If god approves said war, then it's a Holy War. A jihad.


And I still don't see any Lincoln references in her original speech. Care to cite?

gblowfish
09-12-2008, 03:50 PM
Sarah gets a chance to clarify her case:

<object width="464" height="388" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000"><param name="movie" value="http://www2.funnyordie.com/public/flash/fodplayer.swf?af2c813e" /><param name="flashvars" value="key=61410aa4ff" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed width="464" height="388" flashvars="key=61410aa4ff" allowfullscreen="true" quality="high" src="http://www2.funnyordie.com/public/flash/fodplayer.swf?af2c813e" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></object><div style="text-align:center;width: 464px;">See more <a href="http://www.funnyordie.com/gina_gershon">Gina Gershon</a> videos at Funny or Die</div>

orange
09-12-2008, 04:42 PM
And I still don't see any Lincoln references in her original speech. Care to cite?


Are you REALLY this obtuse or are you just pulling our legs?

She NEVER said she was QUOTING him... only that she was echoing his sentiments.

If I were to say "21 points?! That's Arena football, not real football," do I HAVE TO reference Herm Edwards or can I rely on ordinarily intelligent, informed people to actually have a moment of lucidity and make that inference for themselves?

And if someone NOT in the know were to ask, "What the hell are you talking about?" can I then refer to Herm Edwards and expect people with more than one brain cell to understand I was "channelling" him in the original statement?

I think this kind of reasoning generally develops around age 7 or sooner in humans. I wonder WHY you can't seem to grasp it.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Are you REALLY this obtuse or are you just pulling our legs?

She NEVER said she was QUOTING him... only that she was echoing his sentiments.

If I were to say "21 points?! That's Arena football, not real football," do I HAVE TO reference Herm Edwards or can I rely on ordinarily intelligent, informed people to actually have a moment of lucidity and make that inference for themselves?

I don't really see the echo of his statements either. Again, it seems a strategist told her that if it came up invoke Lincoln.

orange
09-12-2008, 04:53 PM
I don't really see the echo of his statements either. Again, it seems a strategist told her that if it came up invoke Lincoln.

She could have just as easily referenced any U.S. president who served during a war (pretty much all of them, I believe). Since we've never elected an Atheist (John Adams was as close as we've gotten), I'm willing to bet every one of them offered similar prayers at some time.

Her prayer/speech was pretty standard boiler-plate stuff for wartime. I bet you could find some presidents in fact who went well beyond that and actually offered up unapologetic "God Is On Our Side" sermons if you looked.

Lincoln, of course, is the Gold Standard of quotability - plus non-partisan respect and admiration.

wazu
09-12-2008, 04:57 PM
Sarah gets a chance to clarify her case:

<object width="464" height="388" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000"><param name="movie" value="http://www2.funnyordie.com/public/flash/fodplayer.swf?af2c813e" /><param name="flashvars" value="key=61410aa4ff" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed width="464" height="388" flashvars="key=61410aa4ff" allowfullscreen="true" quality="high" src="http://www2.funnyordie.com/public/flash/fodplayer.swf?af2c813e" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></object><div style="text-align:center;width: 464px;">See more <a href="http://www.funnyordie.com/gina_gershon">Gina Gershon</a> videos at Funny or Die</div>

That was actually pretty funny. They should have shown her how to hold a gun, though.

patteeu
09-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Yes, and it takes the exact same stupid line of logic you and others have been taking.

Somehow asking that the war be approved by god or in accordance with God's plan is not the same as saying it's a war from god. Mind blowing.

If god approves said war, then it's a Holy War. A jihad.


And I still don't see any Lincoln references in her original speech. Care to cite?

She didn't quote Lincoln, she evoked the same concept that Lincoln famously described, but she did it in her own words. That's the difference between a plagiarist and someone who speaks from her own experience and intellect.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2008, 05:29 PM
She didn't quote Lincoln, she evoked the same concept that Lincoln famously described, but she did it in her own words. That's the difference between a plagiarist and someone who speaks from her own experience and intellect.

Yeah, except I don't find it even close to Lincoln. Again, the Lincoln name drop was only there because a strategist told her that's her cop out. And for the reasons orange mentioned: he's respected and quoted.

Silock
09-12-2008, 06:20 PM
People will hear only what they want to hear.

If you have no wish to objectively judge a candidate, you'll hear only things that repulse you. It's human nature. That's why there are so many Obama supporters in here that rail against Christianity in politics, yet are strangely silent when Obama invokes God.

I honestly don't get it.