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View Full Version : Elections McCain: "What specific area have I, quote, 'changed?'"


Ultra Peanut
09-13-2008, 10:31 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080912/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_republicans;_ylt=ArmTCYsYZFo9TJibvt1Dnfys0NUE

On the Bridge to Nowhere, Palin said she had supported a link from the mainland to the airport but not necessarily the costly bridge project.

"It's not inappropriate for a mayor or for a governor to request and to work with their Congress and their congressmen, their congresswomen, to plug into the federal budget, along with every other state, a share of the federal budget for infrastructure," Palin said.

Palin's comments came after McCain sat for a feisty grilling on ABC's "The View," where he claimed erroneously that his running mate hadn't sought money for such pet projects.

"Not as governor she didn't," McCain said, ignoring the record.
. . .
The GOP hopeful also stood by two debunked campaign commercials one which said Obama favored comprehensive sex education for kindergarten students and another that suggested Obama had called Palin a pig. Both are factually inaccurate.

Obama, as an Illinois state senator, voted for legislation that would teach age-appropriate sex education to kindergartners, including information on rejecting advances by sexual predators. And while Obama told a campaign rally this week that McCain's policies were like "putting lipstick on a pig," he never used the phrase in connection with Palin.

"Those ads aren't true. They're lies," said "View" co-host Joy Behar.

"They're not lies," McCain said, insisting that Obama "chooses his words very carefully" and should never had made the lipstick remark.

McCain defended Palin's conservative religious views but said as president he would maintain a clear separation of church and state. To a smattering of boos, he reiterated his opposition to Roe vs. Wade, the landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion rights.

McCain looked irked when Behar asked him whether he had jettisoned his independence as a candidate by appearing to be in "lock step" with President Bush's policies.

"What specific area have I, quote, 'changed?' Nobody can name it," McCain said.

McCain has changed positions on significant issues. For example, he once opposed Bush's tax cuts but now supports making them permanent. He had opposed lifting the ban on additional offshore oil exploration but now calls for drilling off the U.S. coast. He had been against mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions but now favors them.

MarcBulger
09-13-2008, 10:56 AM
yea Joy Behar she would know the truth....Excuse me but with the sex education stuff if you read the sylibus for the ages of k-8 it talks about all kinds of sick stuff, but homosexual love etc telling 5 year olds about sex is the status quo for the left. Start training them early,....

Programmer
09-13-2008, 10:59 AM
McCain has changed positions on significant issues. For example, he once opposed Bush's tax cuts but now supports making them permanent. He had opposed lifting the ban on additional offshore oil exploration but now calls for drilling off the U.S. coast. He had been against mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions but now favors them.

Let's see here. If McCain changed his mind after opposing the tax cuts might there be a reason? Like maybe he saw that the tax cuts were good for the economy? the drilling off the coast, when he opposed that oil was near $50.00 a barrel, now it's around $100.00. Ya think that might have provoked a change in what was needed?

IMO McCain sees the changing events of the world and the reactions of the economy to those events and was adaptable. Obama is still standing on his platform of Change without the ability to observe current events and how his "change" cannot impact the results of those events.

Programmer
09-13-2008, 11:03 AM
yea Joy Behar she would know the truth....Excuse me but with the sex education stuff if you read the sylibus for the ages of k-8 it talks about all kinds of sick stuff, but homosexual love etc telling 5 year olds about sex is the status quo for the left. Start training them early,....

What will be next? Teaching K-8 how to have sex with real partners?

There is a time an place to teach kids about sex. At school is not one of those places IMO. If you don't feel the parents are prepared to teach their kids about sex the best way to teach the kids it to send the adults to a class to teach them how to approach the subject as a parent. The sylibus that is proposed is totally wrong for any age. Teaching kids that gays and lesbians are normal is just wrong.

Ultra Peanut
09-13-2008, 11:04 AM
yea Joy Behar she would know the truth....Excuse me but with the sex education stuff if you read the sylibus for the ages of k-8 it talks about all kinds of sick stuff, but homosexual love etc telling 5 year olds about sex is the status quo for the left. Start training them early,....It doesn't matter that the "sex education" for young children was to protect them from molestation. You're just going to bluster and make shit up anyways.

Beautiful. Welcome back.

MarcBulger
09-13-2008, 11:09 AM
read the sylibus, I am sure some of it or even most of it had to do with protecting kids, but the other 25% about gay love, and nipples, etc don't belong in a class room taught by some god hating left winger. READ IT IT"S ON THE INTERNET....Read before you call someone a liar.....

Ultra Peanut
09-13-2008, 11:10 AM
<center><blink>GAY LOVE AND NIPPLES
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MarcBulger
09-13-2008, 11:15 AM
Typical can't argue facts,,,how sad, its kinda like when you watch the news shows and they ask an obama supporter to name a few things he has done, and then can't .....but then try and change the subject.....

Ultra Peanut
09-13-2008, 11:16 AM
http://i37.tinypic.com/33wlhsl.gif

Baby Lee
09-13-2008, 11:16 AM
It doesn't matter that the "sex education" for young children was to protect them from molestation. You're just going to bluster and make shit up anyways.

Beautiful. Welcome back.

As opposed to blustering and taking after-the-fact rationalizations at face value?

The bill in question was specifically amended to change the scope of the entire sex-ed program it was addressing from 6-12 to K-12.
The Obama camp has said that the purpose was to allow for education on predators, so we have to take their word for it, unless and until someone digs out the minutes of discussion of the bill, or other ancillary materials.
I'll grant them their word, what I won't do is take the position "they say they're telling the truth and your account if different, so you must be lying."
Certainly, even if it wasn't his intent, the bill he supported WOULD have opened the sex-ed program up to kindergartners. And that's a damning on an 'attention to detail' front as anything.

MoF, that goes to the heart of my central beef with liberalism, good intent without regard to efficacy. In that sense, it goes beyond what he does or doesn't want kindergartners exposed to, and hints that this hope and change in the offing could be a rash of well meaning, but catastrophic, shit.

Ultra Peanut
09-13-2008, 11:17 AM
No, instead we should create and run a commercial calling him a kiddy diddler.

Baby Lee and ethics, sitting in a tree
R-A-P-I-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-G-H

Programmer
09-13-2008, 11:19 AM
No, instead we should create and run a commercial calling him a kiddy diddler.

Baby Lee and ethics, sitting in a tree
R-A-P-I-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-G-H


I've seen stupid before, but you take the cake.

BigMeatballDave
09-13-2008, 11:21 AM
I hate all this flip flop talk. Why aren't people allows to change their minds?

Baby Lee
09-13-2008, 11:21 AM
No, instead we should create and run a commercial calling him a kiddy diddler.

Baby Lee and ethics, sitting in a tree
R-A-P-I-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-G-H

Missed that one, saw the one that pointed out the actual effect of the bill he supported, if it was neglectful in adding that 'but he didn't mean to.'

If the McCain camp has the sense to see what I pointed out, the Obama camp better PRAY that 'it's God's will' that this goes away quickly. They may be making short term gains on righteous indignation over lies, but when the real dynamics are unearthed, it goes beyond the limited issue of what he wants kindergartners exposed to, to how serious he is as an analyst of proposals and programs.

Reaper16
09-13-2008, 11:21 AM
I've seen stupid before, but you take the cake.
i want the cake gimmie

RJ
09-13-2008, 11:23 AM
I hate all this flip flop talk. Why aren't people allows to change their minds?



Changing your mind is a sign of weakness. It's like apologizing.

Baby Lee
09-13-2008, 11:24 AM
i want the cake gimmie

Post your Id and it is yours. ;)

Programmer
09-13-2008, 11:34 AM
I hate all this flip flop talk. Why aren't people allows to change their minds?


Depends upon who you are. If you are a democrat it's an acceptable flip-flop. If you are a republican it is not an acceptable flip-flop!

Reaper16
09-13-2008, 11:38 AM
Depends upon who you are. If you are a democrat it's an acceptable flip-flop. If you are a republican it is not an acceptable flip-flop!
I don't think many people complaining about Republican flip-flops care that they flip-flopped. They remember how Kerry was villified for it in 2004, and they either want the same standards applied to the Republicans (That won't happen), or the other option is to have no one be attacked because of flip-flops. They're just pointing out the worthlessness of that strategy of attack.

Baby Lee
09-13-2008, 11:47 AM
I don't think many people complaining about Republican flip-flops care that they flip-flopped. They remember how Kerry was villified for it in 2004, and they either want the same standards applied to the Republicans (That won't happen), or the other option is to have no one be attacked because of flip-flops. They're just pointing out the worthlessness of that strategy of attack.

Like the Swiftboating, it was MORE Kerry's response, or lack of, than the charges.
He NEVER made a defense against the Swiftboat allegations, leading it to go from 'is this true' to 'must be if he won't answer.'
And his take on his flip-flop, 'I was for it before I was against it.' Come on, that was gift wrapped.

It's the political equivalent of being asked about drugs and getting a reply 'sure I myself light up fortnightly, but I don't think others should.'

orange
09-13-2008, 08:54 PM
It doesn't matter that the "sex education" for young children was to protect them from molestation. You're just going to bluster and make shit up anyways.

Beautiful. Welcome back.

REALLY, NOW. You're making it too easy.

The Full Text Of S.B. 99 Included Changes That Would Offer Sex Education To Children Beginning In Kindergarten. "Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV." (S.B. 99: Illinois Senate Health And Human Services Committee, Passed, 7-4-0, 3/6/03, Obama Voted Yea)

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=3&GA=93&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=99&GAID=3&LegID=734&SpecSess=&Session

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Whatever you may think about the bolded part - when Obama says the Bill was just about "recognizing and preventing molestation," that wasn't exactly TRUE, now was it?

banyon
09-13-2008, 09:01 PM
REALLY, NOW. You're making it too easy.

The Full Text Of S.B. 99 Included Changes That Would Offer Sex Education To Children Beginning In Kindergarten. "Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV." (S.B. 99: Illinois Senate Health And Human Services Committee, Passed, 7-4-0, 3/6/03, Obama Voted Yea)

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=3&GA=93&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=99&GAID=3&LegID=734&SpecSess=&Session

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever you may think about the bolded part - when Obama says the Bill was just about "recognizing and preventing molestation," that wasn't exactly TRUE, now was it?


From your link:

(2) All (1) course material and instruction shall
13 be age and developmentally appropriate.

No one was teaching sex ed to kindergartens.

orange
09-13-2008, 09:07 PM
Funny that you would SELECTIVELY quote from a source that's POSTED RIGHT HERE FOR ANYONE TO READ.

The FULL article you mentioned

7 All sex education courses that discuss sexual activity or
8 behavior intercourse shall satisfy the following criteria:
9 (1) Factual information presented in course
10 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
11 objective.
12 (2) All (1) course material and instruction shall
13 be age and developmentally appropriate.

So, in other words, THOSE CLASSES that in fact teach sexual activity must be age appropriate.

The original line about sexually transmitted diseases remains in effect for "Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 ."

In other words Kindergarteners WILL be taught about preventing sexually transmitted diseases.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now what exactly in your mind is an "age appropriate" discussion of sexually transmitted diseases for 5 year olds?

And, back to the original point, Obama LIED, didn't he, when he said the Bill only would teach about prevention of sexual abuse?

banyon
09-13-2008, 09:17 PM
Funny that you would SELECTIVELY quote from a source that's POSTED RIGHT HERE FOR ANYONE TO READ.

The FULL article you mentioned

7 All sex education courses that discuss sexual activity or
8 behavior intercourse shall satisfy the following criteria:
9 (1) Factual information presented in course
10 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
11 objective.
12 (2) All (1) course material and instruction shall
13 be age and developmentally appropriate.

So, in other words, THOSE CLASSES that in fact teach sexual activity must be age appropriate.

The original line about sexually transmitted diseases remains in effect for "Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 ."

In other words Kindergarteners WILL be taught about preventing sexually transmitted diseases.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now what exactly in your mind is an "age appropriate" discussion of sexually transmitted diseases for 5 year olds?

And, back to the original point, Obama LIED, didn't he, when he said the Bill only would teach about prevention of sexual abuse?


sexual activity or behavior (i.e., watch out for pedophiles)

And no they wouldn't be taught about sexual activity because it isn't age appropriate and would be a violation of the act.

orange
09-13-2008, 09:22 PM
I'll repeat the words one more time since you're ignoring them:

"Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV."


Teacher to Kindergartners:

"Okay class, what have we learned?"

Class:

"Don't let old man Applebaum put Mr. Peepee in our mouths or we could get sick."

banyon
09-13-2008, 09:27 PM
I'll repeat the words one more time since you're ignoring them:

"Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV."


Teacher to Kindergartners:

"Okay class, what have we learned?"

Class:

"Don't let old man Applebaum put Mr. Peepee in our mouths or we could get sick."

I guess you've never seen a statute that has conflicting provisions?

Pitt Gorilla
09-13-2008, 09:32 PM
Like the Swiftboating, it was MORE Kerry's response, or lack of, than the charges.
He NEVER made a defense against the Swiftboat allegations, leading it to go from 'is this true' to 'must be if he won't answer.'
And his take on his flip-flop, 'I was for it before I was against it.' Come on, that was gift wrapped.

It's the political equivalent of being asked about drugs and getting a reply 'sure I myself light up fortnightly, but I don't think others should.'No, it wasn't. I went to a Republican rally in 04 in Columbia, MO where W was visiting and speaking. All he talked about was Kerry's flip-flops. In fact, they were handing out flip-flop shoes to the crowd.

banyon
09-13-2008, 09:32 PM
Here's the rule (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=960584) you would use to render the provisions consistent:

The absurdity and scrivener's error doctrines are often considered inconsistent with textualist thinking to the extent they allow courts to evade a clear statutory command. This article draws on ideas developed in the philosophy of language to suggest that, contrary to recent commentary, the absurdity and scrivener's error doctrines can be reconciled with a textualist method of statutory interpretation.

The absurdity doctrine permits courts to reject applications of a statute which would produce grossly absurd results, while the scrivener's error doctrine permits courts to avoid obvious drafting errors. Both doctrines play an important role in statutory interpretation. However, textualist courts are generally concerned with applying the objective meaning of statutory language, as it would be understood in context by a competent reader. Revising statutory language to avoid absurdities or drafting errors is arguably in tension with this concern. This article will suggest that sufficiently absurd results, or sufficiently clear errors, would be taken into account by competent readers - gross absurdities and evident mistakes are relevant to a statutory text's objective meaning. Accordingly, a narrow form of both doctrines should be acceptable to textualist judges.

orange
09-13-2008, 09:37 PM
We'll never know how that statute would have played out because it didn't pass.

We DO know that McCain's allegation that it proposed - let's say "controversial" - instruction for Kindergartners is accurate.

And we DO know that Obama's defense of his position has been incomplete, evasive, and DISHONEST.

banyon
09-13-2008, 09:45 PM
We'll never know how that statute would have played out because it didn't pass.

We DO know that McCain's allegation that it proposed - let's say "controversial" - instruction for Kindergartners is accurate.

And we DO know that Obama's defense of his position has been incomplete, evasive, and DISHONEST.

I wholly disagree for the reasons already stated.

The fact that people believe that those were really Obama's intentions is kind of stunning. I mean I guess people will believe the worst about anyone as long as it helps them rationalize their position.

ROYC75
09-13-2008, 09:58 PM
I've seen stupid before, but you take the cake.


At times, I really do believe that UP has multiple personalities .....if not, just damn near psychotic . :eek:

ROYC75
09-13-2008, 10:04 PM
I wholly disagree for the reasons already stated.

The fact that people believe that those were really Obama's intentions is kind of stunning. I mean I guess people will believe the worst about anyone as long as it helps them rationalize their position.


I honestly believe his intentions were good, I think he made poor judgment with small children that are not prepared to understand some issues on sex education. Parents can warn their children at home about bad people who take advantage of children, especially when it is a private matter of that child.

banyon
09-13-2008, 10:12 PM
I honestly believe his intentions were good, I think he made poor judgment with small children that are not prepared to understand some issues on sex education. Parents can warn their children at home about bad people who take advantage of children, especially when it is a private matter of that child.

That's still sad that you believe that he thinks kindergartners needed comprehensive sex ed. The only mistake, if any, that was made here by Obama is that he didn't insist on cleaning up the statutory language so people couldn't many years later try to twist it into something that could be used against him.

beer bacon
09-13-2008, 10:32 PM
Everyone who agrees that flip-flopping isn't important should get in touch with the McCain campaign and tell them John might as well come clean about his many flip-flops over the last eight years. We can do this guys!

Baby Lee
09-13-2008, 10:52 PM
I wholly disagree for the reasons already stated.

The fact that people believe that those were really Obama's intentions is kind of stunning. I mean I guess people will believe the worst about anyone as long as it helps them rationalize their position.

Wasn't there a Surgeon General that wanted masturbation taught pretty darn early a few years back, so, it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone could have those aims and still rise to prominence. And even in that case, it's not 'believing the worst.' I bear not the slightest inkling that thinking sex ed should start young is THE WORST position anyone could take.

Baby Lee
09-13-2008, 10:55 PM
No, it wasn't. I went to a Republican rally in 04 in Columbia, MO where W was visiting and speaking. All he talked about was Kerry's flip-flops. In fact, they were handing out flip-flop shoes to the crowd.

I wasn't saying it didn't gain traction, I'm saying it's growth was more a function of his dimwitted response than the initial salvos.

banyon
09-13-2008, 11:03 PM
Wasn't there a Surgeon General that wanted masturbation taught pretty darn early a few years back, so, it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone could have those aims and still rise to prominence. And even in that case, it's not 'believing the worst.' I bear not the slightest inkling that thinking sex ed should start young is THE WORST position anyone could take.

I meant the worst in general, not specifically "how could they believe Obama wanted to torture kindergartners and puppies". And I think that the Elders quote was about kids in school who were already getting sex ed, not kindergartners. I think such a view would be WAY out of the mainstream.

penchief
09-13-2008, 11:33 PM
Depends upon who you are. If you are a democrat it's an acceptable flip-flop. If you are a republican it is not an acceptable flip-flop!

Which is why the republicans made flip-flopping into a character flaw akin to dishonesty when they defined John Kerry. It won the republicans the 2004 election.

Now it's not so important, though. Imagine that. Are republicans hypocrites much? Yep.

Keep telling me that double standard doesn't exist.

whoman69
09-14-2008, 12:01 AM
Flip flopping was certainly the catch phrase when Obama was bringing his positions to the center showing that he could work with the other side. So when McCain does a 180 its not a flip flop?

McCain talks about how he is a maverick and can work across the aisle. That was before he prostrated himself before the holy right agenda. He said during the 2000 election he would work to change the Republican platform on abortion to allow exceptions in the case of rape or incest. Now they won't even budge on danger to the mother? How is that change? How is that going across the aisle? You could almost take his words directly from Bush's speeches from 2000 when he was touted as someone who could get things done in Washington and break the partisan stalemate. How did that work out?

whatsmynameagain
09-14-2008, 11:11 AM
It doesn't matter that the "sex education" for young children was to protect them from molestation. You're just going to bluster and make shit up anyways.

Beautiful. Welcome back.

hey now the religious right loves molestation why would they want kids to know its bad.

Posted via Mobile Device

Ultra Peanut
09-14-2008, 02:22 PM
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Ultra Peanut
09-14-2008, 02:28 PM
Wasn't there a Surgeon General that wanted masturbation taught pretty darn earlyJoycelyn Elders was asked whether masturbation should be taught to adolescents as a means of curbing the number of teenage pregnancies. Her response was, "I think that it is part of human sexuality, and perhaps it should be taught."

The predictable firestorm then erupted, and she was portrayed as a fetus-eating monster who wanted to personally jack off as many toddlers as possible, so Clinton canned her for because she was too pragmatic to be Surgeon General.

Seriously, this woman is cool as hell:

# "Education, education, education. The only way we are going to get around [AIDS] is with education. We have no vaccine, we have no magic drug. All we've got is education."
# "As long as I was in Washington I never met anybody that I thought was good enough, who knew enough, or who loved enough to make sexual decisions for anybody else."[6]
# "We know that more than 70 to 80% of women masturbate, and 90% of men masturbate, and the rest lie."[6]
# "Condoms will break, but I can assure you that vows of abstinence will break more easily than condoms."[7]
# "We've tried ignorance for a thousand years. It's time to try education."[6]
# "I'm against Abstinence programs, because I really consider Abstinence Only to be child abuse."[6]

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 02:32 PM
72 flip flops of John McCain (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/flipflops?t=3).

Programmer
09-14-2008, 03:13 PM
Which is why the republicans made flip-flopping into a character flaw akin to dishonesty when they defined John Kerry. It won the republicans the 2004 election.

Now it's not so important, though. Imagine that. Are republicans hypocrites much? Yep.

Keep telling me that double standard doesn't exist.

OH, it does, but you can't see that it is the liberals that have perfected the double standard.

Programmer
09-14-2008, 03:14 PM
72 flip flops of John McCain (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/flipflops?t=3).

Nice, what type of computer are you using to keep track of Obama's?

What's the count there? 2500?

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 03:23 PM
Nice, what type of computer are you using to keep track of Obama's?

What's the count there? 2500?

The topic is about McCain, so I replied about McCain. You can boomerang this conversation to Obama if you wish but that's just an attempt to take the conversation off-topic.

The fact remains that McCain is trying to portray himself as sturdy and unwavering across-the-board. The fact is, he's changed himself quite a bit, and on a host of issues.

Has McCain been a consistent avoider of flip-flops, Programmer?

Programmer
09-14-2008, 03:34 PM
The topic is about McCain, so I replied about McCain. You can boomerang this conversation to Obama if you wish but that's just an attempt to take the conversation off-topic.

The fact remains that McCain is trying to portray himself as sturdy and unwavering across-the-board. The fact is, he's changed himself quite a bit, and on a host of issues.

Has McCain been a consistent avoider of flip-flops, Programmer?

You see a change as a flip-flop. I see it as change, willing to see that you were in error about a point and correcting the direction needed to get it right.

Innovate, adapt, overcome. I think McCain is working in that direction.

VAChief
09-14-2008, 05:45 PM
You see a change as a flip-flop. I see it as change, willing to see that you were in error about a point and correcting the direction needed to get it right.

Innovate, adapt, overcome. I think McCain is working in that direction.

I couldn't agree more with the bolded comments you made above. It is usually something defended to the death by the Republicans as a mortal sin. Stand defiant no matter how much evidence to the contrary on evolving issues.