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View Full Version : Football College Polls: MU 5, KU 19


Bearcat
09-14-2008, 02:12 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/rankingsindex

1. USC (61) 2-0 1,596
2. Oklahoma 3-0 1,485
3. Georgia (2) 3-0 1,437
4. Florida (1) 2-0 1,414
5. Missouri 3-0 1,389
6. LSU 2-0 1,274
7. Texas 2-0 1,140
8. Wisconsin 3-0 1,076
9. Alabama 3-0 982
10. Auburn 3-0 958
11. Texas Tech 3-0 904
12. South Florida 3-0 801
13. Ohio State 2-1 800
14. Brigham Young 3-0 788
15. East Carolina 3-0 781
16. Penn State 3-0 779
17. Oregon 3-0 679
18. Wake Forest 2-0 482
19. Kansas 2-1 445
20. Utah 3-0 428
21. West Virginia 1-1 179
22. Illinois 2-1 163
23. Clemson 2-1 160
24. Florida State 2-0 146
25. Fresno State 1-1 121

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Ah, college football. Thank God for that.

A couple of things I don't understand:

1. How is Georgia still in the Top 5?
2. How is Ohio State still in the Top 25, let alone the Top 15? Just wait, they'll beat a creampuff next weekend and be back in the Top 10. How many times must they be staked through the heart before they die? :shake:

Sure-Oz
09-14-2008, 04:11 PM
Thank god one of my damn teams is good

Silock
09-14-2008, 04:12 PM
Well, that's better than I was expecting. I was expecting us to drop out of the Top 25 completely.

Mr. Laz
09-14-2008, 04:12 PM
about 20 is where KU belongs imo


they gonna play like 8 teams in the top 20 this year ... gonna be tough.

dirk digler
09-14-2008, 04:12 PM
How is KU so high? :)

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:15 PM
How is KU so high? :)

They played very well. I figured they'd pretty much switch places with SF, and that's basically what happened.

Lzen
09-14-2008, 04:15 PM
Geez, WTF people. KU is a top 25 team. They lost by 3 points on the road to another ranked team. It's not like they got spanked. And if you watched the game, you would know that KU had a good opportunity to win it in regulation. Reesing just made his first mistake of the night at the worst time and it was returned quite a way into FG position.

Spott
09-14-2008, 04:15 PM
Georgia being rated ahead of Florida and Mizzou is joke. KU should probably be a little higher, too.

Silock
09-14-2008, 04:16 PM
Georgia being rated ahead of Florida and Mizzou is joke. KU should probably be a little higher, too.

I love it when MU wants us to be rated higher for SoS purposes ROFL

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:17 PM
My Top 5 would be:

USC
Oklahoma
LSU
Missouri
Florida

Mr. Laz
09-14-2008, 04:17 PM
KU should probably be a little higher, too.

thanks ...... but until/if our new offensive line gels we should stay just where we are


20th is about right for a team that struggles with run blocking

Bearcat
09-14-2008, 04:17 PM
Ah, college football. Thank God for that.

A couple of things I don't understand:

1. How is Georgia still in the Top 5?
2. How is Ohio State still in the Top 25, let alone the Top 15? Just wait, they'll beat a creampuff next weekend and be back in the Top 10. How many times must they be staked through the heart before they die? :shake:

The SEC will always get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to close games.... an ugly game is credited to "the depth of the conference". How they hell they got first place votes though is beyond me.

OSU, once again, is in a good spot even though they don't deserve to be above any 3-0 team. I'd say at least #21. Better hope 2 of the top 10 can stay undefeated, or else OSU will pass them while they limp through their JV conference schedule. Maybe they can play Notre Dame in the ButWeUsedToBeGood.com Bowl.

KCinNY
09-14-2008, 04:17 PM
Who in the hell is giving Georgia votes at #1????

Seriously, they were an eyelash away from losing to a very average South Carolina team. I have no problem with their ranking mind you, but for someone to vote them ahead of USC is mind boggling.

dirk digler
09-14-2008, 04:18 PM
They played very well. I figured they'd pretty much switch places with SF, and that's basically what happened.

I know but I like stirring the pot. KU fans are so defensive

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:19 PM
1. How is Georgia still in the Top 5?


They haven't lost.

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:19 PM
My Top 5 would be:

USC
Oklahoma
LSU
Missouri
Florida

Completely unbiased. :p

Spott
09-14-2008, 04:20 PM
I love it when MU wants us to be rated higher for SoS purposes ROFL

I wasn't even looking at it with that angle. I'm sure their SOS will be pretty good whether KU goes 10-2 or 2-10. I honestly think KU is better than a few of those teams rated above them like Wake Forest, Auburn, Texas Tech and Oregon.

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:21 PM
Almost half of the SEC is in the top 10. LMAO

Bearcat
09-14-2008, 04:21 PM
It really doesn't matter where KU's at... 15, 20, 25... they have plenty to take care of on the field before they start looking at rankings (uh, I don't mean talent, I mean OU, Texas, TTech, Mizzou...).

triple
09-14-2008, 04:22 PM
Ohio State should be down around 20

Mr. Laz
09-14-2008, 04:24 PM
I know but I like stirring the pot. KU fans are so defensive
only when dealing with ignorant MUrons

dirk digler
09-14-2008, 04:25 PM
only when dealing with ignorant MUrons

LMAO :Poke:

Mr. Laz
09-14-2008, 04:27 PM
LMAO :Poke:
it was the only reason you posted ..... didn't want you feeling disappointed.

dirk digler
09-14-2008, 04:29 PM
it was the only reason you posted ..... didn't want you feeling disappointed.

thanks Laz I appreciate your effort :D

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:29 PM
They haven't lost.

Look, I know you're pure 100% SEC homer, but DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE GAME? South Carolina thoroughly outplayed them.

I'm not saying that they suck, but they aren't Top 5 good right now.

Bearcat
09-14-2008, 04:32 PM
I know but I like stirring the pot. KU fans are so defensive

Yeah, we're almost as bad as Mizzou fans...


Running up the score on a cream-puff..... tsk, tsk, tsk.

...

It beats losing to a lower-ranked team.

You play to win the game.

Maybe you should just grab yourself an nice juicy orange, sit back and relax. Reminisce about the good old days of KU football.:)

Central Michigan: 52-7
SE Louisiana: 62-0
Toledo: 45-13
FIU: 55-3

Nobody knows better about beating up on cream puffs than Kansas.

dj56dt58
09-14-2008, 04:32 PM
26. Kansas City Chiefs

eazyb81
09-14-2008, 04:33 PM
Almost half of the SEC is in the top 10. LMAO

If anything, that just shows how biased the voters are towards the SEC. Auburn beat a crappy Miss State team by a score of 3-2.

Seriously, 3 to f'n 2.

They should drop out of the entire poll based on that game, that's an embarrassment to the sport.

Bearcat
09-14-2008, 04:33 PM
And yes, I get the irony of making a defensive post to a comment about how we're defensive..... that was my point. ;)

Lzen
09-14-2008, 04:36 PM
If anything, that just shows how biased the voters are towards the SEC. Auburn beat a crappy Miss State team by a score of 3-2.

Seriously, 3 to f'n 2.

They should drop out of the entire poll based on that game, that's an embarrassment to the sport.

3-2? Are you freakin' kidding? ROFL That's terrible. :shake:

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:36 PM
Look, I know you're pure 100% SEC homer, but DID YOU EVEN WATCH THEM PLAY? South Carolina thoroughly outplayed them.

I'm not saying that they suck, but they aren't Top 5 good right now.

They won on the road against a rival. I don't see any team (outside of East Carolina or Alabama, maybe) who would deserve to be in the top 5 instead of Georgia. LSU, Auburn or Texas haven't beaten anyone as good as SC on the road. Wisconsin beat Fresno St. on the road but even that was a 13-10 game.

Georgia and South Carolina always play it close (SC beat Georgia last year) just like Auburn and Miss St. always play it close (Miss St beat Auburn last year).

dirk digler
09-14-2008, 04:37 PM
And yes, I get the irony of making a defensive post to a comment about how we're defensive..... that was my point. ;)

I was hoping for a better effort Bearcat. :)

In all seriousness KU is a very good football team and they have a great QB. I think they could put 30 up on the Chiefs

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:38 PM
They won on the road against a rival. I don't see any team (outside of East Carolina or Alabama, maybe) who would deserve to be in the top 5 instead of Georgia. LSU, Auburn or Texas haven't beaten anyone as good as SC on the road. Wisconsin beat Fresno St. on the road but even that was a 13-10 game.

Georgia and South Carolina always play it close (SC beat Georgia last year) just like Auburn and Miss St. always play it close (Miss St beat Auburn last year).

Yeah, SC looked tough as nails getting pisspounded by Vanderbilt the week before.

:whackit:

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:38 PM
If anything, that just shows how biased the voters are towards the SEC. Auburn beat a crappy Miss State team by a score of 3-2.

Seriously, 3 to f'n 2.

They should drop out of the entire poll based on that game, that's an embarrassment to the sport.

Those two teams always play close. I understand that Mizzou and KU are fun to watch and put up tons of points, but teams actually play defense in the SEC.

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:40 PM
Yeah, SC looked tough as nails getting pisspounded by Vanderbilt the week before.

:whackit:

Georgia and SC usually play it close. It's a rivalry game, douche.

2008: Georgia 14 SC 7
2007: Georgia 12 SC 16
2006: Georgia 18 SC 0
2005: Georgia 17 SC 15
2004: Georgia 20 SC 16

eazyb81
09-14-2008, 04:41 PM
Those two teams always play close. I understand that Mizzou and KU are fun to watch and put up tons of points, but teams actually play defense in the SEC.

LOL, how predictable is that you played the "good defense" card.

Absolutely no excuse for a 3-2 game in D1 football, that game set the sport back 50 years.

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:41 PM
Those two teams always play close. I understand that Mizzou and KU are fun to watch and put up tons of points, but teams actually play defense in the SEC.

Yeah, that Arkansas defense just impressed the hell out of me last January.

Mecca
09-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Alot of that great SEC defense is bad offense.......that Georgia SC game was alot of bad offense.

Bearcat
09-14-2008, 04:42 PM
I was hoping for a better effort Bearcat. :)

In all seriousness KU is a very good football team and they have a great QB. I think they could put 30 up on the Chiefs

What can I say, it's been a long weekend between work and posting Chiefsplanet drivel and I'm just mailing it for the evening.

Hopefully I'll get to see a lot of Big 12 football this season.... nothing going on on Sundays. :#

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Yeah, that Arkansas defense just impressed the hell out of me last January.

Pat yourself on the back because the #2 Big XII team beat the #6 SEC team. Yay!

Mecca
09-14-2008, 04:43 PM
The SEC is a conference where a team beat LSU by essentially running a gimmick offense with no QB.......yea great defense.

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:44 PM
Yeah, SC looked tough as nails getting pisspounded by Vanderbilt the week before.

:whackit:

I guess the Mizzou victory over Illinois isn't that impressive anymore since Illinois struggled at home against Louisiana-Lafayette 20-17, right?

Skip Towne
09-14-2008, 04:44 PM
I would think Chiefs fans would understand better than anybody how tough it is to win in South Florida in September.

kstater
09-14-2008, 04:44 PM
Pat yourself on the back because the #2 Big XII team beat the #6 SEC team. Yay!

Technically, if you look at wins and losses, MU was the 3rd best team in the Big 12 behind KU and OU.


(Kstater runs away and hides)

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:45 PM
Georgia and SC usually play it close. It's a rivalry game, douche.

2008: Georgia 14 SC 7
2007: Georgia 12 SC 16
2006: Georgia 18 SC 0
2005: Georgia 17 SC 15
2004: Georgia 20 SC 16

So what? We're talking an AVERAGE TEAM (at best) playing a BCS BOWL WINNER.

Keep making homer excuses - it only makes you look more and more like a retard.

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:45 PM
The SEC is a conference where a team beat LSU by essentially running a gimmick offense with no QB.......yea great defense.

Ah, but LSU didn't lose at home to a 41-point underdog. That only happens in the PAC-10.

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:45 PM
I guess the Mizzou victory over Illinois isn't that impressive anymore since Illinois struggled at home against Louisiana-Lafayette 20-17, right?

You seem to confuse losing with winning.

Bearcat
09-14-2008, 04:46 PM
Georgia and SC usually play it close. It's a rivalry game, douche.

2008: Georgia 14 SC 7
2007: Georgia 12 SC 16
2006: Georgia 18 SC 0
2005: Georgia 17 SC 15
2004: Georgia 20 SC 16

Yeah, I said that like 3 times in the gamethread last night... I believe Georgia and Clemson are USC's two biggest games every season.


For Auburn/MSU though, unless there was a constant downpour or something, 3-2 is pathetic... hell, it's still pretty sad even if weather was a big factor. I love SEC football, but holy crap....

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:46 PM
So what? We're talking an AVERAGE TEAM (at best) playing a BCS BOWL WINNER.

Keep making homer excuses - it only makes you look more and more like a retard.

Me look like a retard? Most of the country didn't even know Mizzou or Kansas had a football team until last year. You're the one :deevee: like a little bitch when most of the country agrees with me - which is why Georgia is in the top 5.

Mecca
09-14-2008, 04:47 PM
Ah, but LSU didn't lose at home to a 41-point underdog. That only happens in the PAC-10.

I just want to know why everytime an SEC team looks like shit it's called great defense.

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:47 PM
Pat yourself on the back because the #2 Big XII team beat the #6 SEC team. Yay!

Well, Arkansas was good enough to beat LSU, weren't they?

And the SEC plays DEFENSE!!!!!! LMAO

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:48 PM
Me look like a retard? Most of the country didn't even know Mizzou or Kansas had a football team until last year. You're the one :deevee: like a little bitch when most of the country agrees with me - which is why Georgia is in the top 5.

Yeah, those are the same clowns who continually rank the Suckeyes high.

I guess this makes Georgia the OSU of the SEC.

LiL stumppy
09-14-2008, 04:50 PM
Ah, already ready for the BIG 12 Champ. game again. I am sure it will be OU and MU again. No one can stop OU's speed. Gonna be a good year.

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:50 PM
Well, Arkansas was good enough to beat LSU, weren't they?

And the SEC plays DEFENSE!!!!!! LMAO

What's your point? Shit like that happens in every conference. I guess West Virginia was a much better team than Mizzou last year since they pounded Oklahoma, right? Colorado was good enough to beat Oklahoma last year, so I guess Alabama beating Colorado in a bowl game last year means that Alabama was better than Oklahoma, Mizzou, Kansas and Texas, right?

Spott
09-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Almost half of the SEC is overrated.

FYP

dirk digler
09-14-2008, 04:53 PM
Did Auburn really win 3-2 and they are still in the Top 10? That is what I call stupid

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 04:54 PM
FYP

Yeah - all we do as a conference is win BCS games and generally dominate out of conference competition.

beavis
09-14-2008, 04:54 PM
I love it when MU wants us to be rated higher for SoS purposes ROFL

Yeah, it's not like they've beaten anyone this year.

Sincerely,
Illinois

Frazod
09-14-2008, 04:59 PM
What's your point? Shit like that happens in every conference. I guess West Virginia was a much better team than Mizzou last year since they pounded Oklahoma, right? Colorado was good enough to beat Oklahoma last year, so I guess Alabama beating Colorado in a bowl game last year means that Alabama was better than Oklahoma, Mizzou, Kansas and Texas, right?

You're the one pimping the SEC as being soooooooooooo much better than all the rest of us. Sorry to point out the occasional chink in the armor.

Spott
09-14-2008, 05:01 PM
Yeah - all we do as a conference is win BCS games and generally dominate out of conference competition.

Except for teams from Michigan. :)

DaKCMan AP
09-14-2008, 05:04 PM
Except for teams from Michigan. :)

Yep - they kicked our ass. Still, as a whole, the SEC outperforms the other major conferences in bowl games.

Frazod
09-14-2008, 05:09 PM
Yep - they kicked our ass. Still, as a whole, the SEC outperforms the other major conferences in bowl games.

And I thought Mecca was lame for cherry-picking USC. You cherry pick AN ENTIRE CONFERENCE. Nobody else here does this. Florida loses, and you switch gears to Georgia or LSU without missing a beat and then reassert your superiority over us poor midwesterners. Seriously, what the hell is that?

Do you jerk off watching TV every time one of your rivals wins a game? Do you keep drawers full of gear from LSU, Georgia and South Carolina and wear stuff out of the house depending on who wins?

:shake:

irishjayhawk
09-14-2008, 05:11 PM
Still, the Big 12 has 5 in the Top 25. That's impressive for the Big 12.

tk13
09-14-2008, 07:28 PM
I think Georgia's ranking is probably fair. We'll see how the rest of the season progresses, but all these top teams, USC, Florida, MU... will probably all have a game or two where they have to edge out a conference opponent. Regardless of conference affiliation. LSU had a ton of them last year. So I'm not ready to punish Georgia just yet, they're a very talented team.

Mizzou_8541
09-14-2008, 07:31 PM
Nice to see 2 B12 north teams still in top 20. KU was the better team friday, IMHO.

|Zach|
09-14-2008, 07:46 PM
Nice to see 2 B12 north teams still in top 20. KU was the better team friday, IMHO.

Bah. USF fought back the whole time...earned that turnover and put through a clutch kick.

Yea, Reesing played well. Yes, Kansas played well. It was a great game against a good USF team but some of these pedestals people are setting up for KU in a loss are silly.

|Zach|
09-14-2008, 07:48 PM
I think Georgia's ranking is probably fair. We'll see how the rest of the season progresses, but all these top teams, USC, Florida, MU... will probably all have a game or two where they have to edge out a conference opponent. Regardless of conference affiliation. LSU had a ton of them last year. So I'm not ready to punish Georgia just yet, they're a very talented team.

Agreed.

Ohio St. is too high, and I am kinda surprised Illinois is still in the top 25.

Pitt Gorilla
09-14-2008, 07:52 PM
Geez, WTF people. KU is a top 25 team. They lost by 3 points on the road to another ranked team. It's not like they got spanked. And if you watched the game, you would know that KU had a good opportunity to win it in regulation. Reesing just made his first mistake of the night at the worst time and it was returned quite a way into FG position.I've read that this was USF's "Super Bowl." :D

Also, someone should probably change the thread title; some NU fans will think that was the score of the KU/MU game.

Mizzou_8541
09-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Wait a sec....No Nebraska? I thought Bo had "restored the order" after beating the second best team from New Mexico (in Lincoln):)

Mosbonian
09-14-2008, 08:00 PM
Those two teams always play close. I understand that Mizzou and KU are fun to watch and put up tons of points, but teams actually play defense in the SEC.

OK....I was going to just watch this fight from afar until this comment.

Should I remind you of last years score between UK-LSU and LSU Arkansas? And that is just the couple that come to mind....

Having watched SEC football since 1995 one thing that you can't say about the SEC is that the teams play defense. Every year there are one or two teams that survive on good D, but it is an Offense oriented conference.

mmaddog
*******

Frazod
09-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Wait a sec....No Nebraska? I thought Bo had "restored the order" after beating the second best team from New Mexico (in Lincoln):)

They did get some votes, though.

So did - wait for it - Notre Dame.

LMAO

Mizzou_8541
09-14-2008, 08:07 PM
They did get some votes, though.

So did - wait for it - Notre Dame.

LMAO

Glad to see college football getting back to its roots. I'm so sick of this MU/KU arena league top 10 caliber football.

|Zach|
09-14-2008, 08:12 PM
I've read that this was USF's "Super Bowl." :D

Also, someone should probably change the thread title; some NU fans will think that was the score of the KU/MU game.

ROFL

Frazod
09-14-2008, 08:17 PM
Glad to see college football getting back to its roots. I'm so sick of this MU/KU arena league top 10 caliber football.

Yes. Don't you know - beating Michigan automatically qualifies Notre Dame for a BCS berth. I guess everybody else is fighting over the other seven spots.

Mizzou_8541
09-14-2008, 08:20 PM
Yes. Don't you know - beating Michigan automatically qualifies Notre Dame for a BCS berth. I guess everybody else is fighting over the other seven spots.

Ahhhhh, yes....I yearn for a return to the days where I can watch Notre Dame play every week on national TV regardless of how bad they are and who they are playing.

Frazod
09-14-2008, 08:22 PM
Ahhhhh, yes....I yearn for a return to the days where I can watch Notre Dame play every week on national TV regardless of how bad they are and who they are playing.

I guess you don't get NBC, because they haven't gone anywhere.

|Zach|
09-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Ahhhhh, yes....I yearn for a return to the days where I can watch Notre Dame play every week on national TV regardless of how bad they are and who they are playing.

Like right now.

DJay23
09-14-2008, 08:36 PM
Bah. USF fought back the whole time...earned that turnover and put through a clutch kick.

Yea, Reesing played well. Yes, Kansas played well. It was a great game against a good USF team but some of these pedestals people are setting up for KU in a loss are silly.

That kick was balls, especially considering he severely shanked one from about the same distance on his first attempt of the game.

Jayhawkerman2001
09-14-2008, 09:40 PM
They played very well. I figured they'd pretty much switch places with SF, and that's basically what happened.

see, thats the Frazod we all love to see. Good to have ya back :-)

beavis
09-14-2008, 10:17 PM
Bah. USF fought back the whole time...earned that turnover and put through a clutch kick.

Yea, Reesing played well. Yes, Kansas played well. It was a great game against a good USF team but some of these pedestals people are setting up for KU in a loss are silly.

This was the first time I'd watched them this year, but their O-line looks like complete garbage. Reesing was the only thing keeping them in that game.

POND_OF_RED
09-14-2008, 10:31 PM
Pat yourself on the back because the #2 Big XII team beat the #6 SEC team. Yay!

That same #6 team that put up 50 a week before on the best defense in the SEC on the road.

Ultra Peanut
09-14-2008, 10:35 PM
Jahvid Best's Fun Day:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U3uQwd4J-MY&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U3uQwd4J-MY&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Look closely when it nears the end, kids!

chief52
09-14-2008, 10:39 PM
Damn...that is an ugly shot! I like Best. Blazing speed...hopefully Cal can get it together as a team.

|Zach|
09-14-2008, 11:48 PM
That same #6 team that put up 50 a week before on the best defense in the SEC on the road.

Ouch

Skip Towne
09-14-2008, 11:50 PM
Nice to see 2 B12 north teams still in top 20. KU was the better team friday, IMHO.

Agreed. KU would have won if it was played anywhere else. Chiefs fans know better than anyone how tough it is to win in South Florida in September.

Mizzou_8541
09-14-2008, 11:55 PM
Agreed. KU would have won if it was played anywhere else. Chiefs fans know better than anyone how tough it is to win in South Florida in September.

LMAO

About as hard as it is when playing the Raiders in Arrowhead in September.

DaKCMan AP
09-15-2008, 05:36 AM
That same #6 team that put up 50 a week before on the best defense in the SEC on the road.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Arkansas-LSU game was played 5 weeks prior to the bowl game. Additionally, the score was 28-28 at the end of regulation. The rest was put up in OT when you start at the 25 yard line.

I really don't understand the merit of the Arkansas beat LSU and Mizzou beat Arkansas argument. Colorado beat Oklahoma and Alabama beat Colorado. Oklahoma beat Mizzou (twice) and Texas and Mizzou beat Kansas. That must mean that Alabama is better than Oklahoma, Mizzou, Texas and Kansas, right? No. It's a stupid way to look at things.