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Direckshun
09-14-2008, 06:52 PM
I really have nothing much to add.

http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?NewsID=16465

Poll shows support for torture among Southern evangelicals

by Adelle M. Banks
Religion News Service
September 11, 2008

WASHINGTON -- A new poll released Thursday (Sept. 11) finds that nearly six in 10 white Southern evangelicals believe torture is justified, but their views can shift when they consider the Christian principle of the golden rule.

The poll, commissioned by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University, found that 57 percent of respondents said torture can be often or sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists. Thirty-eight percent said it was never or rarely justified.

But when asked if they agree that "the U.S. government should not use methods against our enemies that we would not want used on American soldiers," the percentage who said torture was rarely or never justified rose to 52 percent.

"Presenting people with this argument and identifying with the golden rule really does engage a different part of people's psyche and a part of their heart, their soul, and really does shift their views on torture," said Robert Jones, president of Public Religion Research, which was commissioned to conduct the poll.

The findings of this poll, which did not define torture, compared to a Pew Research Center poll from February that found that 48 percent of the general public think torture can be justified.

The new poll found that 44 percent of white Southern evangelicals rely on life experiences and common sense to determine their views about torture. A lower percentage, 28 percent, said they relied on Christian teachings or beliefs.

The poll was released on the seventh anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and comes after several religious groups have joined a public campaign to oppose the use of torture in interrogating suspected terrorists.

Results were unveiled during the National Summit on Torture at Mercer in Atlanta, which was co-sponsored by Evangelicals for Human Rights.

David Gushee, a Christian ethics professor at Mercer and the president of the evangelical group, said the poll numbers should tell leaders, including presidential nominees Barack Obama and John McCain, who oppose torture that people can change their minds about this issue if it is discussed from a moral standpoint.

"Opinion on this question is movable," he said.

Pollsters also found that 53 percent of white Southern evangelicals believe the government uses torture in its anti-terrorism campaign, despite claims by government officials to the contrary. About one-third, or 32 percent, said the government does not use torture as a matter of policy.

Researchers also found that 65 percent of white Southern evangelicals support McCain, 14 percent support Obama and 21 percent remain undecided.

The telephone poll of 600 white evangelical Christian adults in 14 Southern states was conducted Aug. 14-22 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

Silock
09-14-2008, 06:55 PM
*yawn*

For one thing, it's limited to southern evangelicals, and secondly, it's limited to evangelicals at all. How does their opinion differ from anyone else?

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 06:55 PM
Something equally depressing to add:

Americans are among the people on earth most supportive of torture. (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/jun08/WPO_Torture_Jun08_packet.pdf)

Support for the unequivocal position [against torture] was highest in Spain (82%), Great Britain (82%) and France (82%), followed by Mexico (73%), China (66%), the Palestinian territories (66%), Poland (62%), Indonesia (61%), and the Ukraine (59%). In five countries either modest majorities or pluralities support a ban on all torture: Azerbaijan (54%), Egypt (54%), the United States (53%), Russia (49%), and Iran (43%). South Koreans are divided.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 06:56 PM
*yawn*

For one thing, it's limited to southern evangelicals, and secondly, it's limited to evangelicals at all. How does their opinion differ from anyone else?

65% of them are voting for John McCain, for one.

Smed1065
09-14-2008, 06:57 PM
The supporters for their choice of president?

Silock
09-14-2008, 06:58 PM
65% of them are voting for John McCain, for one.

And how is that different than the rest of the population that should have been included in the poll?

Important questions.

Ultra Peanut
09-14-2008, 07:00 PM
*yawn*

For one thing, it's limited to southern evangelicals, and secondly, it's limited to evangelicals at all. How does their opinion differ from anyone else?So if you want to find out what evangelicals think about something, you should poll... people other than evangelicals?

Programmer
09-14-2008, 07:03 PM
I really have nothing much to add.

http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?NewsID=16465

Poll shows support for torture among Southern evangelicals

by Adelle M. Banks
Religion News Service
September 11, 2008

WASHINGTON -- A new poll released Thursday (Sept. 11) finds that nearly six in 10 white Southern evangelicals believe torture is justified, but their views can shift when they consider the Christian principle of the golden rule.

The poll, commissioned by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University, found that 57 percent of respondents said torture can be often or sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists. Thirty-eight percent said it was never or rarely justified.

But when asked if they agree that "the U.S. government should not use methods against our enemies that we would not want used on American soldiers," the percentage who said torture was rarely or never justified rose to 52 percent.

"Presenting people with this argument and identifying with the golden rule really does engage a different part of people's psyche and a part of their heart, their soul, and really does shift their views on torture," said Robert Jones, president of Public Religion Research, which was commissioned to conduct the poll.

The findings of this poll, which did not define torture, compared to a Pew Research Center poll from February that found that 48 percent of the general public think torture can be justified.

The new poll found that 44 percent of white Southern evangelicals rely on life experiences and common sense to determine their views about torture. A lower percentage, 28 percent, said they relied on Christian teachings or beliefs.

The poll was released on the seventh anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and comes after several religious groups have joined a public campaign to oppose the use of torture in interrogating suspected terrorists.

Results were unveiled during the National Summit on Torture at Mercer in Atlanta, which was co-sponsored by Evangelicals for Human Rights.

David Gushee, a Christian ethics professor at Mercer and the president of the evangelical group, said the poll numbers should tell leaders, including presidential nominees Barack Obama and John McCain, who oppose torture that people can change their minds about this issue if it is discussed from a moral standpoint.

"Opinion on this question is movable," he said.

Pollsters also found that 53 percent of white Southern evangelicals believe the government uses torture in its anti-terrorism campaign, despite claims by government officials to the contrary. About one-third, or 32 percent, said the government does not use torture as a matter of policy.

Researchers also found that 65 percent of white Southern evangelicals support McCain, 14 percent support Obama and 21 percent remain undecided.

The telephone poll of 600 white evangelical Christian adults in 14 Southern states was conducted Aug. 14-22 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

I would like to know how many republicans, not Southern Evangicals, feel the same way?

I also wonder how many Democrats were included in that poll. Not to mention democras that are not Southern Evangicals.

It's polls like this that make me sick because they know the answer pretty much by the demographics and just use them to further divide America.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:03 PM
So if you want to find out what evangelicals think about something, you should poll... people other than evangelicals?

No, I'm just saying it needs to be put in context. They only polled southern evangelicals, so how can they determine that their beliefs are different than other southern groups? How does that compare with evangelicals in regions other than the south?

Smed1065
09-14-2008, 07:04 PM
And how is that different than the rest of the population that should have been included in the poll?

Important questions.

So McCane leads 65 to 35?

How is this statement different from your others?

Programmer
09-14-2008, 07:04 PM
So if you want to find out what evangelicals think about something, you should poll... people other than evangelicals?

Hey spunk drinking monkey, they knew the breakdown before the poll.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:07 PM
So McCane leads 65 to 35?

How is this statement different from your others?

I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not like it's a shock that he leads among evangelicals, given the way they've hijacked the Republican party.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:08 PM
No, I'm just saying it needs to be put in context. They only polled southern evangelicals, so how can they determine that their beliefs are different than other southern groups? How does that compare with evangelicals in regions other than the south?

So because the poll wasn't wide-ranging enough, the information is useless.

Pitt Gorilla
09-14-2008, 07:08 PM
Hey spunk drinking monkey, they knew the breakdown before the poll.Evidence?

Mr. Laz
09-14-2008, 07:08 PM
6 out of 10 evangelical Christians believe torture can be justified.
i bet it's higher for republicans in general


as long as THEY AREN'T the ones being tortured they couldn't give a shit.


that's really the GOP's standard measure for pretty much everything ..... "as long as i'm not the one being screwed then who cares "



color me unsurprised by this poll outcome :shrug:

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:10 PM
So because the poll wasn't wide-ranging enough, the information is useless.

Any information without context is useless.

It's like saying "60% of OSU freshmen have no problem with binge drinking," and then trying to draw larger conclusions about all college freshmen, all college students, and society in general.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:11 PM
Hey spunk drinking monkey, they knew the breakdown before the poll.

How?

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:12 PM
Any information without context is useless.

It's like saying "60% of OSU freshmen have no problem with binge drinking," and then trying to draw larger conclusions about all college freshmen, all college students, and society in general.

Except, instead of freshmen from a Big 12 school, we're talking about a large, influential block of voters for the Presidency, and instead of talking about binge drinking, we're talking about unconstitutional acts of sadism.

Logical
09-14-2008, 07:13 PM
I am not going to condemn them because if I knew someone knew where a Nuke was going to go off or a WMD chemical or biological was to be released I would probably torture that person for the info but those are the only reason to do it IMO.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:14 PM
Except, instead of freshmen from a Big 12 school, we're talking about a large, influential block of voters for the Presidency, and instead of talking about binge drinking, we're talking about unconstitutional acts of sadism.

But you are also drawing conclusions from a very limited sample. The subject isn't the same, but the methodology is.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:15 PM
I am not going to condemn them because if I knew someone knew where a Nuke was going to go off or a WMD chemical or biological was to be released I would probably torture that person for the info but those are the only reason to do it IMO.

That situation can almost NEVER exist.

irishjayhawk
09-14-2008, 07:16 PM
Any information without context is useless.

It's like saying "60% of OSU freshmen have no problem with binge drinking," and then trying to draw larger conclusions about all college freshmen, all college students, and society in general.

You honestly think this is a good example?

I would venture to guess that the only reason that would be false is because the percentage would be HIGHER.

I get your point but silly example.

It's more like polling Chiefs fans about the state of the NFL with the options being sucks and great. Most likely you'll see "sucks" have a very high percentage due to the Chiefs. But it won't tell you much else.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:16 PM
But you are also drawing conclusions from a very limited sample. The subject isn't the same, but the methodology is.

You're a walking contradiction, man.

In one post, you say these folks have taken the party over.

In this one, you say they're a limited sampling. A trifle.

I'm more willing to agree with the former version of Silock before the latter.

irishjayhawk
09-14-2008, 07:16 PM
I am not going to condemn them because if I knew someone knew where a Nuke was going to go off or a WMD chemical or biological was to be released I would probably torture that person for the info but those are the only reason to do it IMO.

How will you know?

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:17 PM
You honestly think this is a good example?

I would venture to guess that the only reason that would be false is because the percentage would be HIGHER.

I get your point but silly example.

It's more like polling Chiefs fans about the state of the NFL with the options being sucks and great. Most likely you'll see "sucks" have a very high percentage due to the Chiefs. But it won't tell you much else.

It was just an example. Either way, the methodology is the same.

Logical
09-14-2008, 07:17 PM
So because the poll wasn't wide-ranging enough, the information is useless.I think without knowing the circumstance under which they would allow it they certainly cannot be judged. I would bet if you give the circumstances I put in my previous post nearly 90% would support.

Sorry if repost

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:18 PM
You're a walking contradiction, man.

In one post, you say these folks have taken the party over.

In this one, you say they're a limited sampling. A trifle.

I'm more willing to agree with the former version of Silock before the latter.

They have taken over the party.

However, do you think a sample size of 600 from all southern states is adequate to represent the millions of evangelicals from all parts of this country? I sure don't.

irishjayhawk
09-14-2008, 07:19 PM
It was just an example. Either way, the methodology is the same.

Actually, it seems the thread title is what's leading to this argument.

The article states:

WASHINGTON -- A new poll released Thursday (Sept. 11) finds that nearly six in 10 white Southern evangelicals believe torture is justified, but their views can shift when they consider the Christian principle of the golden rule.

Logical
09-14-2008, 07:20 PM
How will you know?Intelligence gathered, I am saying this is a very limited example and would not apply almost ever. If you are suggesting 100% knowledge is needed then you would not need the informants information.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:20 PM
They have taken over the party.

However, do you think a sample size of 600 from all southern states is adequate to represent the millions of evangelicals from all parts of this country? I sure don't.

Well first, I'm not sure if you're new to this, but that's how all polls are conducted. You're never going to see a poll that's going to have a sample of 30 million people, or even 30 thousand people.

Secondly, you can't claim that Southern evangelicals are a meager fraction of this population then claim they've overtaken one of the two most powerful parties in the nation.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:21 PM
Actually, it seems the thread title is what's leading to this argument.

Yes, it is. I never said the article wasn't specific. They are.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:24 PM
Well first, I'm not sure if you're new to this, but that's how all polls are conducted. You're never going to see a poll that's going to have a sample of 30 million people, or even 30 thousand people.

No shit? But have you ever heard of a representative sample? You cannot draw conclusions about all evangelicals based upon this poll.

Secondly, you can't claim that Southern evangelicals are a meager fraction of this population then claim they've overtaken one of the two most powerful parties in the nation.

Don't put words in my mouth. I *never* said that they were a meager fraction. I said that 600 people from one section of the country isn't enough to determine the beliefs of all evangelicals.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:26 PM
No shit? But have you ever heard of a representative sample? You cannot draw conclusions about all evangelicals based upon this poll.

Don't put words in my mouth. I *never* said that they were a meager fraction. I said that 600 people from one section of the country isn't enough to determine the beliefs of all evangelicals.

There's not much we have left to discuss if you're just going to categorically deny the poll.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:26 PM
There's not much we have left to discuss if you're just going to categorically deny the poll.

I'm not denying the poll. I'm denying the conclusions you're making based upon the poll.

EDIT: Your title says that it's evangelicals in general, which you can't conclude based upon this poll. If that's not your intent, then I apologize for shitting all over your thread, but perhaps a more carefully crafted thread title would be appropriate next time you make a thread on something that you know will push buttons.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:33 PM
I'm not denying the poll. I'm denying the conclusions you're making based upon the poll.

You're basically objecting to me not using the words "white" and "Southern" on the heading?

Okay... that's fair.

Let's change "evangelical Christians" to "white evangelical Christians."

That's still nearly 29% of the country, or 88.5 million Americans.

Now, we can add in "Southern" there as well, but considering the South is the biggest hotbed for evangelical Christianity, how much further do you think it slips from that?

Call my thread title misleading or presumptuous. It doesn't change that the polls themselves are revealing of one of the biggest voting blocks in the country -- who, by the way, hate surrendering the moral high ground on any issue, and 65% of which are voting for a war hero who suffered from torture at the hands of an enemy.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:37 PM
Now, we can add in "Southern" there as well, but considering the South is the biggest hotbed for evangelical Christianity, how much further do you think it slips from that?

I'm not sure. But I know that only 59% of those that describe themselves as Christian are registered Republicans.

It doesn't change that the polls themselves are revealing of one of the biggest voting blocks in the country -- who, by the way, hate surrendering the moral high ground on any issue, and 65% of which are voting for a war hero who suffered from torture at the hands of an enemy.

I can agree partially with that, but again, I'd like to see how that compares to the rest of the country before I draw any conclusions about this specific group.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:40 PM
I'm not sure. But I know that only 59% of those that describe themselves as Christian are registered Republicans.

I can agree partially with that, but again, I'd like to see how that compares to the rest of the country before I draw any conclusions about this specific group.

Compares?

You were a Ron Paul supporter! That guy was as much of a literal Constitutionist as anybody!

The idea that 6 out of 10 of any significant voting block believes that torture can be justified is ridiculous. Just because some other voting block may be similarly deranged or even worse doesn't excuse this particular block of anything.

Silock
09-14-2008, 07:44 PM
Compares?

You were a Ron Paul supporter! That guy was as much of a literal Constitutionist as anybody!

The idea that 6 out of 10 of any significant voting block believes that torture can be justified is ridiculous. Just because some other voting block may be similarly deranged or even worse doesn't excuse this particular block of anything.

I don't disagree. In my opinion, they don't have the moral high ground here. But I'm wondering if that's just a symptom of a much larger sickness.

HonestChieffan
09-14-2008, 07:46 PM
Listening to Liberals is torture.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 07:48 PM
I don't disagree. In my opinion, they don't have the moral high ground here. But I'm wondering if that's just a symptom of a much larger sickness.

Yeah and in my opinion, how someone could read that polling data and be outraged about the thread title is beyond me.

StcChief
09-14-2008, 07:53 PM
ok so the Camel jockeys can saw off heads and that's cool.... got it.

Ultra Peanut
09-14-2008, 07:59 PM
ok so the Camel jockeys can saw off heads and that's cool.... got it.DAMMIT MAW WHY CAIN'T AH SAW OFF A HEAD TOO

IT'S LIKE WE HAVE TO FOLLOW RULES OR SUMTHIN'

****IN' CONSTITUTION AND HUMAN DECENCY

Silock
09-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Yeah and in my opinion, how someone could read that polling data and be outraged about the thread title is beyond me.

You're right. It isn't at all outrageous that you would infer such a horrible way of thinking upon millions of people who may not feel that way at all.

Direckshun
09-14-2008, 08:09 PM
You're right. It isn't at all outrageous that you would infer such a horrible way of thinking upon millions of people who may not feel that way at all.

When in reality, a paltry 20-25% of the country falls into this demographic. How dare I expand that to make this number sound significant.

All due respect but you sound a lot more like a distraction-oriented McCain Republican than you do the wide-lens'd Ron Paul supporter during the primaries.

Silock
09-14-2008, 08:11 PM
When in reality, a paltry 25% of the country feels that way. How dare I expand that to make this number sound significant.

All due respect but you're sounding a lot more like a distraction-oriented McCain Republican than you do the wide-lens'd Ron Paul supporter during the primaries.

I'm just trying to get you to look at it from a perspective other than your own.

I know the point you're trying to make, and I agree with you. I just feel you could have gone about it in a different way. I'm not trying to distract; I'm trying to be fair. I don't feel as though inferring all evangelical Christians feel this way is fair.

BigMeatballDave
09-14-2008, 09:01 PM
If it can garner intel that lead to saving American lives, I don't give a shit what they do.

Adept Havelock
09-14-2008, 09:04 PM
If it can garner intel that lead to saving American lives, I don't give a shit what they do.

The end justifies the means?

What a noble Christian outlook you have.

Programmer
09-15-2008, 04:11 AM
Evidence?

:LOL:

Programmer
09-15-2008, 04:14 AM
How?

Do you honestly believe they didn't have a notion of what the poll was going to prove? Most of these polls aren't to find new information but to use known informaton as a political asset and by providing an "unbiased" poll they feel justified.

There have been many demographic studies done over the years and the basics are always pretty close to the same.

Programmer
09-15-2008, 04:18 AM
The end justifies the means?

What a noble Christian outlook you have.

You seem to always turn this into a noble Christian outlook. It tends to be a trend. It must be your generic hatred for religion in general.

banyon
09-15-2008, 09:19 AM
Makes sense to me. Growing up Southern Baptist, they liked things to be extremely simple. Adding just even one level of analysis like that, even so basic makes most of them go "Gosh, I guess maybe Jesus wasn't into torturing after all, maybe it's not ok? I don't know. Oh well, brain hurts, time to turn on Hee Haw."

Sully
09-15-2008, 10:27 AM
For the first 10-12 years of my life I was indoctrinated into the Southern Baptist tradition. The only real thing they ever taught (perhaps it was the specific churches I went to) was that once you are born again, you can do anything bad you want, and still make it into heaven. So long as you believe that John 3:16 is the be all, end all of Biblical knowledge, you have the golden ticket. It was always weird to me. You can murder, but if you are born again, you'll be "saved."
While I don't think they were condoning murder, I think they were doing what they could to open up their church for anyone, no matter how guilty they felt. Sort of spreading God's love to all the sinners. However, i think an unintended side effect of that is a strong belief that there is little responsibility to be stewards of God's earth and people, whether they are your friend or enemy, and a belief that you really do have free reign to do all the harm you feel you need to do... because you've got your "born again" ticket to clear your record upon death. I believe in the grace and forgiveness of God, but I also feel a strong responsibility to be a part of God's grace and love. I often don't see that feeling in evangelical-types.
This is a sweeping generalization based on my experiences in youth groups at a few churches, so I don't mean to discount the charity and good things those churches do. but too often I see people who subscribe to that type (or similar) belief think that they can be the biggest assholes they want, and so long as they have that "born again" card in the back pocket, it doesn't matter. I see it in life, I see it in churches, and I even see it on this board.

Programmer
09-15-2008, 11:03 AM
For the first 10-12 years of my life I was indoctrinated into the Southern Baptist tradition. The only real thing they ever taught (perhaps it was the specific churches I went to) was that once you are born again, you can do anything bad you want, and still make it into heaven. So long as you believe that John 3:16 is the be all, end all of Biblical knowledge, you have the golden ticket. It was always weird to me. You can murder, but if you are born again, you'll be "saved."
While I don't think they were condoning murder, I think they were doing what they could to open up their church for anyone, no matter how guilty they felt. Sort of spreading God's love to all the sinners. However, i think an unintended side effect of that is a strong belief that there is little responsibility to be stewards of God's earth and people, whether they are your friend or enemy, and a belief that you really do have free reign to do all the harm you feel you need to do... because you've got your "born again" ticket to clear your record upon death. I believe in the grace and forgiveness of God, but I also feel a strong responsibility to be a part of God's grace and love. I often don't see that feeling in evangelical-types.
This is a sweeping generalization based on my experiences in youth groups at a few churches, so I don't mean to discount the charity and good things those churches do. but too often I see people who subscribe to that type (or similar) belief think that they can be the biggest assholes they want, and so long as they have that "born again" card in the back pocket, it doesn't matter. I see it in life, I see it in churches, and I even see it on this board.

Sully, you can be an asshole all your life (see banyon) and on your deathbed make your confession and be saved. What is the difference between a deathbed confession and one earlier in life? We are all human and sin daily, Christian or other. By your accounting once you become a Christian you are doomed to hell if you sin again.

I think you missed the ticket, but if you believe that way I'm sure that you have never sinned since your upbringing in the Southern Baptist Church.

Direckshun
09-15-2008, 01:31 PM
Do you honestly believe they didn't have a notion of what the poll was going to prove? Most of these polls aren't to find new information but to use known informaton as a political asset and by providing an "unbiased" poll they feel justified.

There have been many demographic studies done over the years and the basics are always pretty close to the same.

I honestly am surprised that religious people feel this way. So yes, I didn't have this notion.

Programmer
09-15-2008, 01:33 PM
I honestly am surprised that religious people feel this way. So yes, I didn't have this notion.

It's not just religious people that feel that way. The poll was of a select group, not a nation wide poll.

My money is on the fact that the percentage across the country is probably the same.

6 out of 10 Americans ... etc.

Sully
09-15-2008, 02:24 PM
Sully, you can be an asshole all your life (see banyon) and on your deathbed make your confession and be saved. What is the difference between a deathbed confession and one earlier in life? We are all human and sin daily, Christian or other. By your accounting once you become a Christian you are doomed to hell if you sin again.

I think you missed the ticket, but if you believe that way I'm sure that you have never sinned since your upbringing in the Southern Baptist Church.

Tom,

A) It's amazing that you have to turn a reply to my experiences into a personal attack of another poster. Very telling.

B) I never said, nor implied, what you are trying to say I did. I never said I never sin... I never said Christians never sin. I simply said there is more to (my) Christianity than doing whatever the hell I want, but having a magical get out of free card at my disposal. To me, it's sad that some act this way. I believe there is much more to Christianity than simly saying a few words that "save" (what does that really mean?) you, while never efforting to walk the walk. If what I said offends you, then maybe you should just refrain from discussing it with me, or look in the mirror and ask why it offends you. Either way, i don't want to get into another discussion where you try your damndest to insult my faith.

Programmer
09-15-2008, 02:46 PM
Tom,

A) It's amazing that you have to turn a reply to my experiences into a personal attack of another poster. Very telling.

B) I never said, nor implied, what you are trying to say I did. I never said I never sin... I never said Christians never sin. I simply said there is more to (my) Christianity than doing whatever the hell I want, but having a magical get out of free card at my disposal. To me, it's sad that some act this way. I believe there is much more to Christianity than simly saying a few words that "save" (what does that really mean?) you, while never efforting to walk the walk. If what I said offends you, then maybe you should just refrain from discussing it with me, or look in the mirror and ask why it offends you. Either way, i don't want to get into another discussion where you try your damndest to insult my faith.

Where is it an insult to your faith?

If you feel that it's wrong to sin after you get saved, what is the punishment for that sin? Are you only able to be redeemed one time? King David did many thinigs yet was still blessed by God because he had a repentant heart.

I'm really sorry if you took that as a direct slam of your faith but it was not intended as such, but your wording was very precise in the way you put it. Christians get saved and then live like hell. I've got news for you, everyone lives like hell until they have an epifany of what God has for them. If you were as adamant about your faith you might have restrained your reply of my post. Was that not doing the very same thing you called others out for?

I took a shot at banyon because he deserves a shot, read his typical posts in response to others, or just mine if you will. banyon is an asshole most of the time with most of the posters here.