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KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 06:24 AM
Baylor Survey Finds New Perspectives On U.S. Religious Landscape

Sept. 18, 2008

Survey Finds Intimate Community in America's Megachurches, Irreligious Simply 'Unchurched,' Religious and Mystical Experiences Intrinsic to Americans' Religious Life



Link to story (http://www.baylor.edu/pr/news.php?action=story&story=52815)
Media contacts: Lori Fogleman (Lori_Scott-Fogleman@baylor.edu), director of media communications, (254) 710-6275 or Matt Pene (Matt_Pene@baylor.edu), assistant director of media communications, (254) 710-4656


WASHINGTON, D.C. - Americans religion is remarkably stable and quite surprising in its diverse beliefs, practices and realities, according to the latest findings from the Baylor Religion Survey, one of the most extensive surveys ever conducted on American religious attitudes.



In the follow-up to the landmark 2005 survey that revealed a majority of Americans believe in God or a higher power, the new Baylor findings - published in What Americans Really Believe by Dr. Rodney Stark (Baylor University Press, 2008) - highlight even more hot-button issues of religious life in America, such as:
• the supersizing of faith at America's Megachurches
• the "scattered" church vs. the "gathered" church
• views on God, heaven and evil
• atheism and irreligion
• religious and paranormal beliefs and experiences
In releasing their findings at a news conference in the nation's capital, the authors of the Baylor Religion Survey - Dr. Rodney Stark, Dr. Byron Johnson, Dr. Christopher Bader and Dr. Carson Mencken - said their work offers a different perspective on the depth and complexity of America's religious landscape. A total of 1,648 adults chosen randomly from across the country answered more than 350 items in the survey, which was designed by the Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion (ISR) and conducted by the Gallup organization in the fall of 2007.


"Our mission with the Baylor Religion Survey is to ask deeper questions that other surveys do," said Dr. Chris Bader, an associate professor of sociology at Baylor and one of the ISR researchers. "Lots of surveys ask do you pray and how often. Very few surveys ask what you pray about. A lot of surveys ask do you believe in God, but surveys have not asked who is God? Is God angry, is God judgmental, is God friendly, is God forgiving, is He engaged with the world? We actually had people do a personality profile of God in the survey, so we can tell you not only if that person believes in God, which almost any survey can tell you, but what they think about God, what is God like and how does that characterization influence other parts of their lives. The idea was to take every question you usually see on a religion survey and try to push it several levels."




During the spring, ISR researchers analyzed responses to the questions about Americans' religious beliefs and practices. Researchers focused Wave Two of the Baylor Religion Survey on these topic modules:
• Religious strictness
• Religion and science
• Race and ethnicity
• Family and relationships
In addition, the survey authors asked questions on a host of other topics, such as mystical experiences, moral attitudes and conceptions of God. Here are some of their initial findings:


Megachurches are more than a mile wide and an inch deep.

"None of the things we all believe about the megachurch is true," said Dr. Rodney Stark, Distinguished Professor of the Social Sciences at Baylor and co-director of the ISR.


Even with congregations of more than 1,000 members, the Baylor Religion Survey found that megachurches surprisingly are more intimate communities than small congregations of less than 100 members (Ch. 5, "Megachurches: Supersizing the Faith"). Megachurch growth is mostly due to their members, who tend to witness to their friends, bringing them into the group, and witness to strangers, much more often than members of small churches.


When compared to small congregations, the survey found that megachurch members display a higher level of personal commitment by attending services and a Bible study group and tithing. They also are more likely to accept that heaven "absolutely" exists and that God rewards the faithful with major successes, are more convinced of the reality of evil, are far more given to having religious and mystical experiences, are significantly younger in age and are remarkably active in volunteer work (as much or more so than tiny churches).


"We think of them as these great, huge, cold religious gatherings with a symphony orchestra and a paid choir and a lot of hoopla and a lot of good tidings but no bad tidings," Stark said. "It's not true that it's all happy talk. These people are as interested in evil and sin as anybody in any of the churches. Their levels of satisfaction are high, their volunteerism in community service is very high and their outreach efforts are absolutely phenomenal."


"I've heard stories when you go to some of the megachurches that you have to get tickets and parking like it's a football game," said Dr. Carson Mencken, professor of sociology at Baylor. "You go to a football game, you sit next to people you don't know very well, and so I figured that's exactly what megachurches are going to be like. The survey reveals the megachurches are not like that at all. These people do know each other, and they're networked into the church through their friends and friends of friends."


Atheism and Irreligion

During the past 63 years, several polls show the percentage of atheists has not changed at all, holding steady at only 4 percent of Americans who say they do not believe in God. Not only is atheism not growing in the United States, the majority of Europeans are not atheists (Ch. 14, "Atheism: The Godless Revolution That Never Happened"). Russia now claims 96 percent of its population believes in God, while a recent poll of China showed that atheists are outnumbered by those who believe in God(s).


In both the 2005 and 2007 Baylor Religion Surveys, researchers found than 11 percent of the national sample reported they had "no religion." Although nearly a third of the "no religion" group are atheists who reject "anything beyond the physical world," the Baylor Religion Survey found that two-thirds of the "no religion" group expressed some belief in God and many of those are not "irreligious" but are merely "unchurched" (Ch. 17, "The Irreligious: Simply Unchurched-Not Atheists"). Delving into the actual religiousness of those who report having no religion, the Baylor Survey found that a majority of Americans who claim to be irreligious pray (and 32 percent pray often), around a third of them profess belief in Satan, hell and demons, and around half believe in angels and ghosts.


Religious and Mystical Experiences

If anything, these experiences are an overlooked aspect of America's national religious life. The Baylor Religion Survey asked respondents about: hearing the voice of God, feeling called by God to do something, being protected by a guardian angel, witnessing and/or receiving a miraculous physical healing, and speaking or praying in tongues. The ISR researchers found that such experiences are central to American religion.

Bader was stunned by the percentage of Americans - 55 percent - who said they were protected from harm by a guardian angel. "That was something that was a complete surprise because this is not a question, do you believe in guardian angels or do you believe in angels. This is a very specific question: Do you believe you have been protected from harm by a guardian angel? Do you believe you avoided an accident through the agency of a guardian angel? To find out that more than half of the American public believes this was shocking to me. I did not expect that."


The survey found that 45 percent of Americans report having at least two religious encounters (Ch. 6, "Religious Experiences: God Told Me to Go to Church"). Denomination matters, too. Conservative Protestants are more likely than liberal Protestants, Catholics or Jews to report religious or mystical experiences. However, these experiences are not limited to conservative Protestants. They occur with considerable frequency in nearly all religious groups. The survey also showed that women, African Americans and Republicans are more apt to have religious and mystical experiences.


Christianity and Superstition

The Baylor Survey found that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases credulity, as measured by beliefs in such things as dreams, Bigfoot, UFOs, haunted houses, communicating with the dead and astrology (Ch. 15, "Credulity: Who Believes in Bigfoot"). Still, it remains widely believed that religious people are especially credulous, particularly those who identify themselves as Evangelicals, born again, Bible believers and fundamentalists. However, the ISR researchers found that conservative religious Americans are far less likely to believe in the occult and paranormal than are other Americans, with self-identified theological liberals and the irreligious far more likely than other Americans to believe. The researchers say this shows that it is not religion in general that suppresses such beliefs, but conservative religion.


"There's an old saying that a man who no longer believes in God is ready to believe in just about anything, and it turns out our data suggests it's true.That is to say, religious people don't believe this stuff, but there's no education effect," Stark said.


Among other interesting findings on paranormal or occult beliefs: People who have read The Purpose-Driven Life or any book in the Left Behind series are less likely to believe in the occult and paranormal, while those who have read any book on dianetics or The Da Vinci Code are more likely to believe. ROFL


"Scattered" and "Gathered" Religious Groups

No one has ever studied this growing debate over "scattered" vs. "gathered" churches. ISR researchers found that the "scattered" church - religious activities not affiliated with or sponsored by a congregation - is quite large, but they also found that the "scattered" activities are not a substitute for participation in the "gathered" church (Ch. 4, "The 'Scattered' Church: Traditional Congregations Are Not Going Away").

"One of the things that you hear a lot of is that people are growing dissatisfied with organized religion, and because of this dissatisfaction, they don't participate in religious activities," said Dr. Byron Johnson, professor of sociology at Baylor and co-director of the ISR. "There's some concern that people are just staying in church and not getting out, but what we found that people who do these outreach ministries all operate from the base of some organized church that they're involved in. They're really not out there frustrated with the organized church doing these other kinds of ministries and outreach that they have no church home of their own because they're so dissatisfied. It's not true."


The survey found that 14 percent of American adults - or about 31 million people - take part in a community prayer group, 9 percent in a Bible study group and 12 percent in faith-based programs not affiliated with or sponsored by a congregation. Of those, 80 percent attend their regular church frequently. These "scattered" activities, such as prayer and Bible study groups, actually strengthen the "gathered" church.


For "gathered" churches, the primary issue is whether or not congregations tend to be open or closed social networks and whether this influences their capacity for outreach. As the researchers found with megachurches, belonging to a congregation that consists largely of close friendships does not turn members inward. In fact, members of the "gathered" church witness most often to strangers and are most likely to do volunteer work in their communities. The survey confirmed that "scattered" church activities benefit those receiving the outreach, while encouraging and strengthening the commitment of those providing the outreach in the "gathered" church.


Americans believe in heaven.

The 2005 survey found that 67 percent of Americans sayd they were "absolutely sure" heaven exists and 17 percent thought it "probably" does (Ch. 8, "Heaven: We Are All Going"). With similar results in 2007, researchers found that the certainty of a person's belief in heaven is related to religious affiliation, with 89 percent of conservative Protestants absolutely sure of heaven. In addition, more women than men (68 percent to 56 percent), more African-Americans than whites (86 percent to 60 percent), more people who live in the South than the East (76 percent to 50 percent) and more Republicans than Democrats (77 percent to 54 percent) are absolutely sure that heaven exists.


But how certain are Americans that they - and others - will get into heaven? ISR researchers found that 46 percent of Americans are at least "quite certain" they will go to heaven, while few think that heaven is exclusive. Only 29 percent believe that even the irreligious are prevented from entering heaven.


Americans believe in hell.

The survey found that 73 percent of Americans believe hell absolutely or probably exists (Ch. 8, "Heaven: We Are All Going"). Although Conservative Protestants lead in this category at 92 percent, the belief is not limited to conservative denominations: 79 percent of Roman Catholics and 69 percent of Liberal Protestants believe hell absolutely or probably exists.


The Next Wave

The Baylor Religion Survey was funded by the John M. Templeton Foundation, and will be repeated every two years. Additional reports will be released in the coming months as the researchers delve further into the data they collected.


"In the future we'll be able to see a trend of what religion is doing in this country over the course of 20 years in a very deep sense," Bader said.

For more details about The Baylor Religion Survey, go to the website of the Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion at http://www.ISReligion.org (http://www.isreligion.org/)</B>.


About Baylor University

Chartered in 1845 by the Republic of Texas through the efforts of Baptist pioneers, Baylor University is the oldest, continually operating university in the state. A private Christian university and a nationally ranked liberal arts institution, Baylor is classified by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching as a research university with "high research activity." This blends with Baylor's international reputation for educational excellence built upon the faculty's commitment to teaching, scholarship and interdisciplinary research to produce outstanding graduates.

Baylor's 735-acre campus in Waco, Texas, is home to more than 14,500 students from all 50 states and 70 countries. Baylor offers 147 undergraduate, 76 master and 25 doctoral degree programs, plus the juris doctor degree, through its 11 academic units.


About ISR
Baylor University's Institute for Studies of Religion (Baylor ISR) exists to involve scholars having many different interests and approaches in creative efforts to grasp the complexities and interconnections of religion in the life of individuals and societies. The aim is to combine the highest standards of scholarship with a serious commitment to faith, resulting in studies that not only plumb basic questions, but produce results that are relevant to religious organizations, address moral controversies, and contribute to social health.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 07:18 AM
Only 4% atheist.
73% believe in hell.
55% believe their angels have protected or guided them.
84% believe in heaven (77% of republicans and 54% of democrats).

People who have read the DaVinci Code are more likely to believe in aliens or ghosts than people who have read the Left Behind series or Pastor Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life.
:eek:




ROFL

"This Dan Brown guy is fascinating...!"

KILLER_CLOWN
09-19-2008, 08:16 AM
You can place the rapture into the the myth/fable category as well.

oldandslow
09-19-2008, 09:26 AM
You can place the rapture into the the myth/fable category as well.

The "rapture" is central to only a few Christian religions. It is a term not mentioned in the Bible and found popularity after 1850.

"Left Behind" is bad theology, imo, and for the most part, bad science fiction.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-19-2008, 09:37 AM
The "rapture" is central to only a few Christian religions. It is a term not mentioned in the Bible and found popularity after 1850.

"Left Behind" is bad theology, imo, and for the most part, bad science fiction.

I know quite a few people who believe in it, trying to show them the truth gets you nowhere. They operate on the basis that my pastor would never lie to me and never bother to research the origin of the doctrine themselves.

NewChief
09-19-2008, 09:39 AM
The "rapture" is central to only a few Christian religions. It is a term not mentioned in the Bible and found popularity after 1850.

"Left Behind" is bad theology, imo, and for the most part, bad science fiction.

It's always amazing to me how many of the popular notions now accepted as doctrine in Christianity have their origins in places other than the Bible. For instance, I'd argue that Milton's Paradise Lost has way more influence on popular Christianity's notions of heaven, hell, satan, and god than the actual Bible.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 10:25 AM
I guess you have never read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and forward. Just as the first coming of Christ was misperceived by the religious establishment, it is entirely plausible that His 2nd coming will also be a surprise.

oldandslow
09-19-2008, 10:33 AM
I guess you have never read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and forward. Just as the first coming of Christ was misperceived by the religious establishment, it is entirely plausible that His 2nd coming will also be a surprise.

Of course I have read it. The writer was writing in allegorical form warning all people to live in a correct manner because no one can no what is to happen.

furthermore the disciples and writers of the new testament felt Christ would return in their lifetimes.

It is also entirely possible that the theology of the "2nd coming" might catch you suprised as well.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 10:39 AM
Of course I have read it. The writer was writing in allegorical form warning all people to live in a correct manner because no one can no what is to happen.

furthermore the disciples and writers of the new testament felt Christ would return in their lifetimes.

It is also entirely possible that the theology of the "2nd coming" might catch you suprised as well.

No, it was written for Christians of all ages and times to "comfort one another with these words."

The parousia referred to in this passage is the Blessed Hope of the Church, not some murky what-if scenario.

tiptap
09-19-2008, 10:49 AM
Of course I have read it. The writer was writing in allegorical form warning all people to live in a correct manner because no one can no what is to happen.

furthermore the disciples and writers of the new testament felt Christ would return in their lifetimes.

It is also entirely possible that the theology of the "2nd coming" might catch you suprised as well.

Or that he had already come and no one made the boat or jump or whatever. Wouldn't that be a surprise for all concerned?

Mr Luzcious
09-19-2008, 11:00 AM
The "rapture" is central to only a few Christian religions. It is a term not mentioned in the Bible and found popularity after 1850.

"Left Behind" is bad theology, imo, and for the most part, bad science fiction.

Ah.. you beat me to it.

Also, I have to wonder why so many people think they're personally protected by a guardian angel.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 11:01 AM
Ah.. you beat me to it.

Also, I have to wonder why so many people think they're personally protected by a guardian angel.

Uhhh... because its true?

Or is God an unreliable witness?

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:14 AM
So, in essence, this study confirms people believe in stupid things?

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:14 AM
Also, why are aliens part of the implication that it's ludicrous to believe in? Statistics would be on their side.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 11:16 AM
So, in essence, this study confirms people believe in stupid things?

Thanks for accusing 75% of Americans of stupidity.

You win the patriot-of-the-week-award, Mr. irishjayhawk.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:18 AM
Thanks for accusing 75% of Americans of stupidity.

You win the patriot-of-the-week-award, Mr. irishjayhawk.

I didn't call them stupid. I said they believe in stupid things.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 11:20 AM
Uhhh... because its true?

Or is God an unreliable witness?

I don't get into religious debates much but this question intrigued me. What were the personal angels doing on 9/11? Taking the morning off? Out for coffee?

When and how do they decide to protect or let you die? How does that all work?

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:23 AM
I don't get into religious debates much but this question intrigued me. What were the personal angels doing on 9/11? Taking the morning off? Out for coffee?

When and how do they decide to protect or let you die? How does that all work?

All you have to understand is that God gets credit for the good and doesn't get credit for the bad.

Natural disasters are the best example of this phenomenon at work.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 11:23 AM
I don't get into religious debates much but this question intrigued me. What were the personal angels doing on 9/11? Taking the morning off? Out for coffee?

When and how do they decide to protect or let you die? How does that all work?

The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:24 AM
The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

Fred PHelps?

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 11:26 AM
All you have to understand is that God gets credit for the good and doesn't get credit for the bad.

Natural disasters are the best example of this phenomenon at work.

I have noticed that and I want to say though my question was honest and not trying to be sarcastic.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:27 AM
I have noticed that and I want to say though my question was honest and not trying to be sarcastic.

I wonder if you think KCJ's response is an answer.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 11:29 AM
The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

So help me understand because America has abortions we are not protected by God? I know that is just one example but what about all the good people in the US that believe in God but die by murder and other horrible ways. Why isn't the personal angel protecting those people yet the bad guys always live on?

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:30 AM
The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

Also, serious question: If people dying is chalked up to "god's will", how do abortions not get chalked up to "god's will"?

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 11:31 AM
I wonder if you think KCJ's response is an answer.

not really.

By Johnny's own words we should elect Obama because he is a devout Christian

Mr Luzcious
09-19-2008, 11:31 AM
So help me understand because America has abortions we are not protected by God? I know that is just one example but what about all the good people in the US that believe in God but die by murder and other horrible ways. Why isn't the personal angel protecting those people yet the bad guys always live on?

Too busy playing baseball, maybe.

tiptap
09-19-2008, 11:31 AM
The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.


I find it interesting that we can't know your thoughts but you can tell us God's thoughts just fine. That the level of grace and punishment is known only to you. Cute. I was taught that all sin was the same so God doesn't distinguish between murder and failure to put Him first. And yet you rank the sins as to their relative demerit toward whatever.

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 11:37 AM
So help me understand because America has abortions we are not protected by God? I know that is just one example but what about all the good people in the US that believe in God but die by murder and other horrible ways. Why isn't the personal angel protecting those people yet the bad guys always live on?

First, God owes answers to no one (read the book of Job).

If you have a problem with that, read no further.

Abortions are the elective taking of innocent lives - crucifixions of Christ all over if you will - and a just and righteous God must address this grave injustice.

A million Africans died in the slave trade in the US between 1619 and 1865. A million Soldiers were killed or wounded as a result of the War Between the States.

If a people remain unrepentant and arrogant in their sin, cataclysmic judgment will take place as an act of mercy to rally the people towards true repentance that will result in their salvation.

If America elects Barack Obama, who holds the most radical abortion policy in the nation, we can expect divine retribution for our collective trespass and real guilt.

40 million abortions require a massive judgment and retribution unless we repent.

"If my people who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and repent of their sin, then shall I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14

HolyHandgernade
09-19-2008, 11:47 AM
Christianity and Superstition

The Baylor Survey found that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases credulity, as measured by beliefs in such things as dreams, Bigfoot, UFOs, haunted houses, communicating with the dead and astrology (Ch. 15, "Credulity: Who Believes in Bigfoot"). Still, it remains widely believed that religious people are especially credulous, particularly those who identify themselves as Evangelicals, born again, Bible believers and fundamentalists. However, the ISR researchers found that conservative religious Americans are far less likely to believe in the occult and paranormal than are other Americans, with self-identified theological liberals and the irreligious far more likely than other Americans to believe. The researchers say this shows that it is not religion in general that suppresses such beliefs, but conservative religion.


"There's an old saying that a man who no longer believes in God is ready to believe in just about anything, and it turns out our data suggests it's true. That is to say, religious people don't believe this stuff, but there's no education effect," Stark said.


Among other interesting findings on paranormal or occult beliefs: People who have read The Purpose-Driven Life or any book in the Left Behind series are less likely to believe in the occult and paranormal, while those who have read any book on dianetics or The Da Vinci Code are more likely to believe.

I can't tell from the synopsis, but it seems to me the title is a bit misleading. The religious, especially the conservative religious are less likely to believe in other superstitions because it is not their superstition. In other words, the only truth is from the Bible and so superstitions not in the Bible will be seen at best as distractors from the true faith, at worst, deceptions from Satan to lead them astray. I don't think it really speaks to their level of gullibility, especially if you include the idea of man being born of a virgin but who is really a God and then rises after three days of death. Whether you believe that occurs or not is not the question, the question is, if you don't associate that story with Jesus, would you classify it as a superstition? So it's more of a case of believing your own superstition to the exclusion and preference of other's.

-HH

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 11:49 AM
First, God owes answers to no one (read the book of Job).

If you have a problem with that, read no further.

Abortions are the elective taking of innocent lives - crucifixions of Christ all over if you will - and a just and righteous God must address this grave injustice.

A million Africans died in the slave trade in the US between 1619 and 1865. A million Soldiers were killed or wounded as a result of the War Between the States.

If a people remain unrepentant and arrogant in their sin, cataclysmic judgment will take place as an act of mercy to rally the people towards true repentance that will result in their salvation.

If America elects Barack Obama, who holds the most radical abortion policy in the nation, we can expect divine retribution for our collective trespass and real guilt.

40 million abortions require a massive judgment and retribution unless we repent.

"If my people who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and repent of their sin, then shall I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14

This is why I don't get into religious debates. To say that the reason why America is not being protected is because of abortion is really ....out there.

RJ
09-19-2008, 12:11 PM
All you have to understand is that God gets credit for the good and doesn't get credit for the bad.

Natural disasters are the best example of this phenomenon at work.



Every time there is a disaster with loss of human life, the survivors always thank God and attribute their survival to God's will, but you never hear anyone say that the deaths were a result of God's will. That puzzles me. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

VAChief
09-19-2008, 12:32 PM
First, God owes answers to no one (read the book of Job).

If you have a problem with that, read no further.

Abortions are the elective taking of innocent lives - crucifixions of Christ all over if you will - and a just and righteous God must address this grave injustice.

A million Africans died in the slave trade in the US between 1619 and 1865. A million Soldiers were killed or wounded as a result of the War Between the States.

If a people remain unrepentant and arrogant in their sin, cataclysmic judgment will take place as an act of mercy to rally the people towards true repentance that will result in their salvation.

If America elects Barack Obama, who holds the most radical abortion policy in the nation, we can expect divine retribution for our collective trespass and real guilt.

40 million abortions require a massive judgment and retribution unless we repent.

"If my people who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and repent of their sin, then shall I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14

That is a strong statement God will punish us for electing Obama. Is he punishing us for Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II's failure as well?

Logical
09-19-2008, 12:45 PM
I guess you have never read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and forward. Just as the first coming of Christ was misperceived by the religious establishment, it is entirely plausible that His 2nd coming will also be a surprise.No obviously Obama is not a surprise.:evil:

Logical
09-19-2008, 12:46 PM
This is why I don't get into religious debates. To say that the reason why America is not being protected is because of abortion is really ....out there.Oh yes, QFT

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 12:47 PM
Every time there is a disaster with loss of human life, the survivors always thank God and attribute their survival to God's will, but you never hear anyone say that the deaths were a result of God's will. That puzzles me. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

Logic fails in the face of religion.

Silock
09-19-2008, 03:08 PM
Logic fails in the face of religion.

Do you ever just leave well enough alone? Seriously. It's like every thread you enter, you try to bait someone into an argument.

There's no sound basis for saying that logic and religion are incompatible. I find them to be completely compatible, alongside the Big Bang and evolution. It all depends on your perspective.

Brock
09-19-2008, 03:15 PM
The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

By your standard McCain is probably a whoremongering adulterer. Is that who we should elect, even though it will make no difference in the abortion numbers?

Sully
09-19-2008, 03:34 PM
Every time there is a disaster with loss of human life, the survivors always thank God and attribute their survival to God's will, but you never hear anyone say that the deaths were a result of God's will. That puzzles me. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

It's hard for Christians to fully believe that God gave us all free will. To believe that God has a "hand" in everything that happens, good or bad, would essentially mean that God didn't give us all free will. It's a tough thing to deal with, as evidenced by those who believe that God did this or did that.

tiptap
09-19-2008, 03:41 PM
Well, I think, it might be both. - Forrest Gump or Thesis Antithesis Synthesis - Hegel

penchief
09-19-2008, 03:57 PM
The mysteries of God's counsel is not revealed to everyone. The devout know that divine retribution is a part of the economy of grace engineered toward the salvation of souls. America is not innocent. With 40 million innocent babies murdered in their own mothers' wombs, we should anticipate much harsher judgment.

George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

How about those hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis (including women and children) that George Bush murdered? How about the fact that he decieved his God and his fellow man in order to justify unleashing "Shock And Awe" on those innocent children, including many unborn babies still in their mothers' wombs?

I guess killing innocent people and unborn babies is only murder when it disagrees with your agenda, huh?

KCJohnny
09-19-2008, 07:06 PM
That is a strong statement God will punish us for electing Obama. Is he punishing us for Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II's failure as well?

Abortion is a deadly serious matter. I hope God forgoes our much deserved punishment on behalf of those who fear God and seek His face and work hard to do His will. But as Billy Graham once said, "If God doesn't punish America, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 07:07 PM
Do you ever just leave well enough alone? Seriously. It's like every thread you enter, you try to bait someone into an argument.

There's no sound basis for saying that logic and religion are incompatible. I find them to be completely compatible, alongside the Big Bang and evolution. It all depends on your perspective.

I cannot leave it alone because they are, fundamentally, opposed.

And it ties right in with my point about God getting credit for the good and not for the bad.

It's not bait. It's true.

Silock
09-19-2008, 07:12 PM
I cannot leave it alone because they are, fundamentally, opposed.

And it ties right in with my point about God getting credit for the good and not for the bad.

It's not bait. It's true.

I think the biggest problem I have with the way you post is the fact that you speak in absolutes. If someone disagrees with you, it's not that they hold a different opinion, you just say they're flat out wrong or stupid.

I hope that's just a failing of the communication media we're using and not how you operate in-person.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 07:17 PM
I think the biggest problem I have with the way you post is the fact that you speak in absolutes. If someone disagrees with you, it's not that they hold a different opinion, you just say they're flat out wrong or stupid.

I hope that's just a failing of the communication media we're using and not how you operate in-person.

I'm more than willing to speak in shades of grey. Unfortunately, on this issue, there isn't one.

God exists or he does not.

There really isn't much grey here to work with. Hell, politically, I'm everywhere so I have to see some shades of grey. Otherwise I'd be diehard Democrat, Republican or Libertarian etc.

Silock
09-19-2008, 07:30 PM
I'm more than willing to speak in shades of grey. Unfortunately, on this issue, there isn't one.

God exists or he does not.

There's plenty of grey area. There's atheism, agnosticism, deism, flying spaghetti monster-ism, etc. It all depends on how open you are.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 07:31 PM
There's plenty of grey area. There's atheism, agnosticism, deism, flying spaghetti monster-ism, etc. It all depends on how open you are.

No, there's really no grey area.

God(s) exist or God(s) don't. This includes all of them.

FTR, I have no problem with deism. Wanna know why? They aren't at the forefront killing on behalf of said god, in the name of god, or infiltrating institutions for their own agenda.

Silock
09-19-2008, 07:37 PM
No, there's really no grey area.

There you go again with those absolutes, and again, I totally disagree. There are hundreds of different definitions of who or what God is or isn't. There are different interpretations of how involved He may or may not be.

I understand what you're saying that fundamentally that something either exists or it doesn't, but we see in quantum mechanics that there are particles that neither exist nor don't exist. Why couldn't that same mechanic apply to God, if one so chooses to believe?

Anyway, that's a bit off the point. You constantly demean people that believe differently than you do, whether that's intentional or not. I would hope that you just don't realize it's happening.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 07:41 PM
There you go again with those absolutes, and again, I totally disagree. There are hundreds of different definitions of who or what God is or isn't. There are different interpretations of how involved He may or may not be.

And there you go again with making the simple more complex.

I guess I could clarify a bit: SUPERnatural god(s) either exist or they don't. (Elvis is God doesn't count, essentially.)

I already told you this is one of the instances where there is only black and white. Only absolutes.

I understand what you're saying that fundamentally that something either exists or it doesn't, but we see in quantum mechanics that there are particles that neither exist nor don't exist. Why couldn't that same mechanic apply to God, if one so chooses to believe?

See, the problem here is you are comparing the natural to the SUPERnatural. For example, the LHC is supposed to help prove the existence of said molecules. If they don't exist, science is more than happy to cross that hypothesis off. Religion has shown none of that ability. For them, SUPERnatural is as good as natural.


Anyway, that's a bit off the point. You constantly demean people that believe differently than you do, whether that's intentional or not. I would hope that you just don't realize it's happening.

Again, only on this issue. Calling people delusional is only demeaning if I'm actually wrong in my assertion. Considering I've seen ZERO evidence for god's existence, I consider statistics on my side. If there was a definitive answer, I'd eat my crow graciously.

Silock
09-19-2008, 08:04 PM
And there you go again with making the simple more complex. I already told you this is one of the instances where there is only black and white. Only absolutes.

In your opinion. It still doesn't make anyone that believes differently than you stupid or make their opinion stupid. And yes, I believe this problem to be considerably complex.

See, the problem here is you are comparing the natural to the SUPERnatural. For example, the LHC is supposed to help prove the existence of said molecules. If they don't exist, science is more than happy to cross that hypothesis off. Religion has shown none of that ability. For them, SUPERnatural is as good as natural.

How do you define what is supernatural and what is natural? If there were an alien race in our universe that evolved the power to transcend dimensions, would they not be natural also?

Again, only on this issue. Calling people delusional is only demeaning if I'm actually wrong in my assertion.

You don't seem to be open to the possibility that you COULD be wrong, though. That's the way it comes across.

Considering I've seen ZERO evidence for god's existence, I consider statistics on my side. If there was a definitive answer, I'd eat my crow graciously.

See, that's the thing. There's not ever going to be statistics that prove or disprove the existence of God in our lifetime. We see evidence in the Big Bang itself that lends a lot of credence to the theory that some entity had a role to play in this universe's formation. That's actually quite a debate in physics right now. I really don't have time to get into that, though, because I'm heading to a bachelor party. Suffice it to say that I just feel like there would be much better discussions around here if people didn't feel so disrespected about their beliefs that they just lashed out irrationally (from BOTH sides, not just one).

Mecca
09-19-2008, 08:19 PM
I picture Johnny applauding with glee at the people who say things like Katrina was Gods way of punishing New Orleans and all that whacked out shit...

And then people wonder why religious people can at times be looked down upon it's people like Johnny who have views so far out there...I understand most religious people aren't like that it's the nutjobs. What he is posting is frankly absurd and so far out there it's ridiculous.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 08:26 PM
In your opinion. It still doesn't make anyone that believes differently than you stupid or make their opinion stupid. And yes, I believe this problem to be considerably complex.

I guess you could chalk anything and everything up to "in your opinion". Why bother with petty evidence, proof or facts?


How do you define what is supernatural and what is natural? If there were an alien race in our universe that evolved the power to transcend dimensions, would they not be natural also?

I am not going to sit here and tell you we know everything there is to know about the natural world. Hell, that's one of my easy arguments against the Intelligent Design movement.

As it's defined now, SUPERnatural is a being that exists outside of our known experience. As it's defined now, you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say SUPERnatural.

You don't seem to be open to the possibility that you COULD be wrong, though. That's the way it comes across.

I'm more than happy to be wrong. That's why I don't say there is 100% with respect to god not existing. And that's also the arrogance believers buy into. They don't seem to be open to the possibility that they are wrong.

Again, you provide conclusive evidence and I will eat crow gladly. I was a believer at one point, you know.


See, that's the thing. There's not ever going to be statistics that prove or disprove the existence of God in our lifetime. We see evidence in the Big Bang itself that lends a lot of credence to the theory that some entity had a role to play in this universe's formation. That's actually quite a debate in physics right now. I really don't have time to get into that, though, because I'm heading to a bachelor party. Suffice it to say that I just feel like there would be much better discussions around here if people didn't feel so disrespected about their beliefs that they just lashed out irrationally (from BOTH sides, not just one).

I might agree, however, it is not I who has put forth a claim. It is the religious who put forth a claim. People who put forth claims must back them up, otherwise, they are believed to be false. Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy, FSM, Thor, Zeus, Rain God, Sun God, leprechauns, etc.

So, I think there are some beliefs that just don't deserve respect. Religious belief is one of them. For too long it was wrong to criticize it. Taboo, even. It's starting to break now.

It is not I who claim to know 100% certainty on the matter. That would lie with the believer (who ironically put forth the claim). I do know that the evidence leads me to a 99% chance of non-existence. That's why I sound arrogant, most likely. That and the belief that "all beliefs should be respected" which you seem to be advocating.

penchief
09-19-2008, 08:29 PM
Abortion is a deadly serious matter. I hope God forgoes our much deserved punishment on behalf of those who fear God and seek His face and work hard to do His will. But as Billy Graham once said, "If God doesn't punish America, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."

Will he punish us for killing all of those innocent women, children, and unborn babies in Iraq?

KILLER_CLOWN
09-19-2008, 09:16 PM
Will he punish us for killing all of those innocent women, children, and unborn babies in Iraq?

Yes, and the abortions and turning away from him among many other sins. One has to know satan has no power that is not given from GOD, something that most Christians cannot comprehend. We are sinners in the hands of an angry GOD.

Logical
09-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Yes, and the abortions and turning away from him among many other sins. One has to know satan has no power that is not given from GOD, something that most Christians cannot comprehend. We are sinners in the hands of an angry GOD.Well thank the Creator I am a Deist then. I will be sorry to see all you Christians punished by your vengeful God. Will he turn you into pillars of salt, that would be really inconvenient.

Ebolapox
09-19-2008, 10:07 PM
George Bush has actually stayed the hand of God's righteous judgment with his fear of God and complicity with the divine will at his own popular expense.

ROFL

ROFL

........................................................................

........................................................................

........................................................................



HE'S NOT KIDDING, IS HE?

:spock:


JTDC

Ebolapox
09-19-2008, 10:09 PM
First, God owes answers to no one (read the book of Job).

If you have a problem with that, read no further.

Abortions are the elective taking of innocent lives - crucifixions of Christ all over if you will - and a just and righteous God must address this grave injustice.

A million Africans died in the slave trade in the US between 1619 and 1865. A million Soldiers were killed or wounded as a result of the War Between the States.

If a people remain unrepentant and arrogant in their sin, cataclysmic judgment will take place as an act of mercy to rally the people towards true repentance that will result in their salvation.

If America elects Barack Obama, who holds the most radical abortion policy in the nation, we can expect divine retribution for our collective trespass and real guilt.

40 million abortions require a massive judgment and retribution unless we repent.

"If my people who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and repent of their sin, then shall I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14


christ.

I really should go photoshop a baby on a crucifix. it'd be blasphemous, but it would at least give KCJ a new avatar.

Silock
09-20-2008, 12:22 AM
That and the belief that "all beliefs should be respected" which you seem to be advocating.

I do respect your opinion. You're certainly entitled to it.

NewChief
09-29-2008, 09:57 AM
The "rapture" is central to only a few Christian religions. It is a term not mentioned in the Bible and found popularity after 1850.

"Left Behind" is bad theology, imo, and for the most part, bad science fiction.

I thought of this post this morning when reading a column by my minister in the local paper:


http://www.nwarktimes.com/nwat/Editorial/69605/print/
ROOTS & WINGS : The rapture and politics
Lowell Grisham lgrisham@arkansasusa.com

Posted on Monday, September 29, 2008

URL: http://www.nwanews.com/nwat/Editorial/69605/

With the nomination of Sarah Palin there has been renewed interest in the intersection of religious faith and political policy. Gov. Palin comes from a Christian tradition that embraces a set of “ end times” beliefs that have an influence on how many people view some important political issues.

The centerpiece of these end times speculations is the Rapture. That’s not something you’ll find taught in Roman Catholic, Orthodox or most Protestant denominations. The Rapture is a Biblical interpretation articulated in the 1800 ’s by John Nelson Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren.

In 1 Thessalonians 4: 15-17, the Apostle Paul tried to comfort people worried about their relatives who had died. What will happen to them when Jesus returns ? Will they miss the restoration of the Earth that Jesus has promised ? No, says Paul. They will rise from their graves and join the living to be “ caught up together... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ” The Greek word Paul uses for “ meet” is apantesis, a word describing a community’s greeting for a visiting dignitary. Just as a town would go outside the city to meet and escort an honored one into the city, the church will meet Christ as he returns to Earth. But Darby imagined the Rapture to be an escape from the world rather than a welcoming procession.

Darby searched through the Bible trying to cut and paste passages that he thought might have some reference to the end times and turn it all into a consistent historical narrative. He couldn’t do it, so he invented “ dispensations” — separate historical ages that incorporate different divine revelations and different laws for each age.

The key passage for his theory is Daniel 9: 27. The passage is a vision from the angel Gabriel describing a timeline of 70 weeks. In its original context, the timeline predicts the fall of the wicked Antiochus IV and an end to his persecution of Israel (c. 164 BCE ). In Daniel’s timeline, there is a break between the 69 th and 70 th week. For Darby, this break is the current age, now 2, 000 years long — the Tribulation, our current dispensation. At the end of this age, a last seven-week period will initiate the end-times scenario. For Darby the end is violence, bloodshed and the destruction of the world.

There are competing versions of Rapture and Dispensation. There is pre-tribulational premillenniallism, post-tribulational premillennialism, post-millennialism and amilleniallism. The number of dispensation ages vary from three to seven.

These might be quaint religious curiosities, except that our view of reality shapes our reality. These religious views have profound effects, most of them negative, and most of them in conflict with the vision of Jesus and of the Bible.

End-times Rapture theology posits a throwaway Earth. Why care for what God is going to destroy ? It encourages thinking in dichotomies: us / them; saved / damned; friend / enemy; right / wrong; righteous / condemned. It glorifies violence, even genocide and ethnic cleansing. It tends toward an unbalanced, unjust view of the Middle East.

Dispensational Christians are behind much of the Christian Zionist movement. They pray for the expansion of Israel to its widest borders and the restoration of animal sacrifices in a restored Temple so God can initiate the final bloody battle of Armageddon. God so loved the world that he sent World War III. Jewish historian Gershom Gorenberg says of Christian Zionists, “ They don’t love real Jewish people. They love us as characters in their story, in their play, and that’s not who we are.... If you listen to the drama they are describing, essentially, it’s a five-act play in which the Jews disappear in the fourth act. ”

Much of Darby’s fascination centers around a misinterpretation of the book of Revelation. Revelation offers a vision of Jesus as a Lamb, who conquers the oppressions of empire non-violently, “ by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of... testimony. ” The only sword that Jesus uses is the sword of his mouth. The word is his only weapon. There is no war in Revelation. No attack. The victory is already won in Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. The only blood in Revelation is Jesus ’ own — an image connecting the cross to the Eucharistic feast where all may drink of the cup of his passion and resurrection.

The true vision of Revelation exposes the destructive consequences of Empire. The author describes the Empire as revisiting the plagues of the Exodus. The plagues are what Rome, Babylon and all other oppressive regimes do to God’s good Earth. What God does is healing.

In Revelation, the final solution is not a war, but a courtroom. The evildoers are put on trial for their crimes before God’s throne of justice.

According to the vision from Revelation, God comes to dwell with humanity. God is creating a new community where the gates are always open and all are welcomed, where they drink from the river of life and eat from the tree of life whose leaves are for the healing of the nation.

According to John, the author of Revelation, this renewed community is the reality we are invited to live in now. “ The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Messiah. ”

Biblical Christianity is Earth affirming — God created the Earth and all its creatures and said, “ It is good. ” God loves the Earth and desires its healing. We are to be stewards for God’s good creation.

Biblical Christianity sees God present among all the nations and tribes, peoples and languages. Biblical Christianity is just, with special concern for the poor, weak and outcast. Biblical Christianity reaches out to all humanity in love and compassion, just as Jesus did. Biblical Christianity promotes non-violence and worships a Prince of Peace.

In a time of ecological challenge and ethnic tensions, the last thing we need is a religious vision that looks forward to a bloody ethnic cleansing and the destruction of the world as the goals and purpose of God. When we see that kind of stuff in other religions, we call them radical. Bad theology can make for very bad politics.

(For those who haven’t had a chance to hear a grounded, balanced message about these things, I recommend “ The Rapture Exposed” by Barbara R. Rossing. )

Lowell Grisham is an Episcopal priest from Fayetteville.

Bowser
09-29-2008, 10:17 AM
Eagerly awaiting 'Hamas' to drop some Dogma quotes here.

Bowser
09-29-2008, 10:41 AM
I'm not enlightened enough to know if there is a god or if there isn't a god, but all I do know is that fundamentalists that follow the bible like it's law are frightening.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-29-2008, 10:50 AM
I'm not enlightened enough to know if there is a god or if there isn't a god, but all I do know is that fundamentalists that follow the bible like it's law are frightening.

Do I scare you? it all comes down to interpretation and those who follow "leaders" as if they were the only ones who could comprehend. You certainly do not need a biblical teacher to have this effect, many of our leaders posing as Christians right now are nothing more than desirous of power. Most evil rulers throughout history only used the bible to acheive their goals, better off if we remember to worship no man.

Bowser
09-29-2008, 10:52 AM
Do I scare you? it all comes down to interpretation and those who follow "leaders" as if they were the only ones who could comprehend. You certainly do not need a biblical teacher to have this effect, many of our leaders posing as Christians right now are nothing more than desirous of power. Most evil rulers throughout history only used the bible to acheive their goals, better off if we remember to worship no man.

I should have edited that post to say the fundamentalists that I have personally met, not to throw a blanket statement out there like that.

Agree with your assesment on leaders using religion selfishly.

Adept Havelock
09-29-2008, 04:44 PM
Well thank the Creator I am a Deist then. I will be sorry to see all you Christians punished by your vengeful God. Will he turn you into pillars of salt, that would be really inconvenient.

Inconvenient for them and the Morton's company, perhaps.

Easy access to a sizable supply of condiments to me. :shrug:


I really should go photoshop a baby on a crucifix. it'd be blasphemous, but it would at least give KCJ a new avatar.

How about a crucified Winnie the Pooh?

Then he can accuse you of being a bearitic.

StcChief
09-29-2008, 08:23 PM
Thanks for accusing 75% of Americans of stupidity.

You win the patriot-of-the-week-award, Mr. irishjayhawk.
but KCJohnny, bite you lip and continue to defend Libs anyway....

Mecca
09-29-2008, 08:41 PM
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Cannibal
09-29-2008, 08:46 PM
Tell you what, I've a got deal:

Jesus = Church/Sunday School

Secular = Government/Public School

Can we all agree to that? Sounds fair doesn't it?

Logical
09-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Tell you what, I've a got deal:

Jesus = Church/Sunday School

Secular = Government/Public School

Can we all agree to that? Sounds fair doesn't it?I like it.

Cannibal
09-29-2008, 08:55 PM
I like it.

I agree, I just wish the religious could agree to it as well.

Mecca
09-29-2008, 08:56 PM
I agree, I just wish the religious could agree to it as well.

Nah man they won't be happy till they can tell each and every one of us exactly what to do, that's my problem with them.

Logical
09-29-2008, 08:57 PM
ROFL

ROFL

........................................................................

........................................................................

........................................................................



HE'S NOT KIDDING, IS HE?

:spock:


JTDCSadly he is not.:harumph:

Cannibal
09-29-2008, 09:05 PM
Nah man they won't be happy till they can tell each and every one of us exactly what to do, that's my problem with them.

Yeah, it is incideous in it's nature.

irishjayhawk
09-29-2008, 09:16 PM
Just thought I'd throw this in here, but

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/

Deconstructs the Left Behind first book. It's horrendous. Bad fiction even underlies the bad theology.

Adept Havelock
09-29-2008, 09:31 PM
Just thought I'd throw this in here, but

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/

Deconstructs the Left Behind first book. It's horrendous. Bad fiction even underlies the bad theology.

What do you expect from a series of books originally conceived as a trilogy and turned into a 15+ volume extravaganza by the publisher? Not to mention it makes Tom Clancy read like Charles Dickens or Mark Twain, comparatively speaking.

Heck, it makes "Rarnaby Budge" by Charles Dikkens (the well known Dutch author) look good.

irishjayhawk
09-29-2008, 09:33 PM
What do you expect from a series of books originally conceived as a trilogy and turned into a 15+ volume extravaganza by the publisher? Not to mention it makes Tom Clancy read like Charles Dickens or Mark Twain, comparatively speaking.

I'm not surprised. ;)

Alas, I'm not their target audience.

Adept Havelock
09-29-2008, 09:38 PM
I'm not surprised. ;)

Alas, I'm not their target audience.

Heh. I'm shocked.

I'm a huge fan of apocalyptic fiction though Revelation is so-so for the genre, IMNSHO. Scientific, Military, Horror, Theological...I loves me a good end o' the world story.

Left Behind is to Apocalyptic Fiction as Mission: Earth is to Hugo-quality Science Fiction.

Mr Luzcious
09-30-2008, 01:31 AM
Heh. I'm shocked.

I'm a huge fan of apocalyptic fiction though Revelation is so-so for the genre, IMNSHO. Scientific, Military, Horror, Theological...I loves me a good end o' the world story.

Left Behind is to Apocalyptic Fiction as Mission: Earth is to Hugo-quality Science Fiction.

So-so? Thats being generous.

Dave Lane
09-30-2008, 01:57 AM
Only 4% atheist.
73% believe in hell.
55% believe their angels have protected or guided them.
84% believe in heaven (77% of republicans and 54% of democrats).

People who have read the DaVinci Code are more likely to believe in aliens or ghosts than people who have read the Left Behind series or Pastor Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life.
:eek:




ROFL

"This Dan Brown guy is fascinating...!"

Holy crap the percentage of stupid people is much greater than previously thought.

Oh and I know I trust a survey on religion from Baylor.

Dave

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-30-2008, 05:08 AM
Hey Johnny,

Do you know how many people have starved to death or died from poverty-related illnesses (like say, lack of clean drinking water) while the organization that you are a part of has gobbled up almost $10 trillion for instruments used to kill people since 1980?

Go **** yourself, you myopic ****.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-30-2008, 05:12 AM
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KCJohnny
09-30-2008, 08:00 AM
Hey Johnny,

Do you know how many people have starved to death or died from poverty-related illnesses (like say, lack of clean drinking water) while the organization that you are a part of has gobbled up almost $10 trillion for instruments used to kill people since 1980?

Go **** yourself, you myopic ****.

Please Mr. Jenkins, tell Chiefs Planet what you do to help starving people and those in need of humanitarian assistance.

The 'organization I am a part of" is your garauntee of the right to say such reckless and hateful things.

phisherman
09-30-2008, 09:12 AM
you do this a lot johnny...that is, you never answer questions.

you ask leading questions that benefit your agenda, and you demonize those who do the same thing to you.

what a hypocrite. once again, it's people like you that give the church a bad name with your "i'm always right because god says i am" attitude. i think god may give you a stern lecture at the pearly gates for being a bigmouth.