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RINGLEADER
09-19-2008, 10:58 AM
Obama just said his "basic belief" in the economy is that higher taxes create jobs and increases wages. Simple question: how? If I have to pay more to the government as a business owner I'm going to cut jobs and wages and increase prices to make up the difference.

I guess I'm unpatriotic. ;)

RJ
09-19-2008, 11:00 AM
Ok, but if you do that you'll probably sell less product and have trouble attracting good employees.

RINGLEADER
09-19-2008, 11:04 AM
Ok, but if you do that you'll probably sell less product and have trouble attracting good employees.

Ah, but unless the taxes are targeting just me and not my competitors we'll all be in the same boat. You make the point that taxes DEPRESS wages and hiring. When you tax something you get less of that something (be it a product, a service, or whatever).

jAZ
09-19-2008, 11:06 AM
Obama just said his "basic belief" in the economy is that higher taxes create jobs and increases wages. Simple question: how? If I have to pay more to the government as a business owner I'm going to cut jobs and wages and increase prices to make up the difference.

I guess I'm unpatriotic. ;)

This thread is a non-starter as a sincere discussion of Obama's economic philosphy since you aren't even remotely describing it accurately.

Stinger
09-19-2008, 11:09 AM
Ok, but if you do that you'll probably sell less product and have trouble attracting good employees.

So a person starts a business not to make money? High taxes = higher price for goods and services.

Most people who know how to run a business will reinvest in there business to grow it. IE more into the infrastructural (creating more jobs) and adding more jobs to the existing company. With out extra capital that does not happen.

RJ
09-19-2008, 11:24 AM
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

HonestChieffan
09-19-2008, 11:38 AM
It is easy. Be a government contractor or go work for a city, county, or state.

tiptap
09-19-2008, 11:40 AM
Obama just said his "basic belief" in the economy is that higher taxes create jobs and increases wages. Simple question: how? If I have to pay more to the government as a business owner I'm going to cut jobs and wages and increase prices to make up the difference.

I guess I'm unpatriotic. ;)

It is sort of like when Bush asked us to go out and spend our way out of the recession and 9/11 attack. If you are going to investigate the question using only half the balance sheet then you can always count it as loss.

ChiTown
09-19-2008, 11:47 AM
It is sort of like when Bush asked us to go out and spend our way out of the recession and 9/11 attack. If you are going to investigate the question using only half the balance sheet then you can always count it as loss.

Uhh, that happens here with just about every post, and by both sides. It's part of the political agenda handbook.

HolyHandgernade
09-19-2008, 11:52 AM
How Does Unregulated Corporate Greed Create Jobs and Increase Wages?

alnorth
09-19-2008, 12:00 PM
How Does Unregulated Corporate Greed Create Jobs and Increase Wages?

Regulation is kind of a different topic than taxes entirely.

Brock
09-19-2008, 12:07 PM
Off topic, but looking at that Obama small business plan, I could see a lot of guys installing their wives as figurehead owners of a business in order to get the benefits.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 12:20 PM
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf
Expand Loan Programs for Small Businesses: Access to capital is a top concern among small business owners. Barack Obama cosponsored the bipartisan Small Business Lending Reauthorization and Improvements Act. This bill expands the Small Business Administration’s loan and micro-loan programs which provide startup and long-term financing that small firms cannot receive through normal channels. Obama and Biden will work to help more entrepreneurs get loans, expand the network of lenders, and simplify the loan approval process.


I swear to ****ing god, if politicians can't pull their heads out of their asses, this country is ****ed.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 12:23 PM
Wow Barack's small business plan reads like the communist manifesto, imo.

Rain Man
09-19-2008, 12:25 PM
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

If he had stopped at the first point, he would've been a lot better off.

BARACK OBAMA AND JOE BIDEN’S PLAN FOR SMALL BUSINESS
There are approximately 25.8 million businesses in the United States and over 99 percent of all employers are
small businesses, according to the U.S. Small Business Administration. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will help
small businesses by cutting health care costs, improving access to capital and investing in innovation and
development.

Lower Health Care Costs with a New Small Business Health Tax Credit: Barack Obama and Joe Biden
understand that the skyrocketing cost of healthcare poses a serious competitive threat to America’s small
businesses. Small businesses are the drivers of job growth in our economy, creating, on average, more than twothirds
of net new jobs each year. Yet small business owners face unique challenges in providing health care to
their employees, including higher administrative costs, lower bargaining power, greater price volatility and
fewer pooling options. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will reduce the burden on small businesses in our
economy by offering a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to help small businesses provide quality health
care to their employees. The Obama Small Business Health Tax Credit will provide a refundable credit of up to
50 percent on premiums paid by small businesses on behalf of their employees.
Obama’s Small Business Health Tax Credit will work alongside other aspects of his health care plan to lower
costs and improve competitiveness for America’s small businesses, including:

If this happened, it would be big.

• Access to a Low-cost National Health Exchange: The Obama health care plan will provide small
businesses with new opportunities to buy low-cost, high quality health plans for their employees through
a national exchange similar that will allow small businesses to get the same benefits of spreading risk
and administrative costs over a large pool that larger businesses currently enjoy.

This would be good. I don't know how much of an impact it would have, but it wouldn't hurt.

• Reduced Volatility and Lower Costs by Reimbursing Catastrophic Costs: The Obama plan will
reimburse employer health plans for a portion of the catastrophic costs they incur above a threshold if
they guarantee such savings are used to reduce the cost of workers’ premiums. This reimbursement
(often called reinsurance) is particularly important for small business plans, which can be overwhelmed

by the costs of catastrophic expenditures for even a single employee.

Looks like a passthrough to me. No impact on businesses at all.

• Investment in Cost Reduction and Quality Improvement Strategies: The Obama plan will
aggressively lower health costs by facilitating broad adoption of standards-based electronic health
information systems, and other value-increasing innovations improving chronic care management, and
increasing insurance market competition.


Provide Zero Capital Gains and Other Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Ups: Barack Obama
believes that we need to reduce burdens on small business owners, many of whom are struggling to succeed as
health care and energy costs continue to skyrocket. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will eliminate all capital
gains taxes on small and start-up businesses to encourage innovation and job creation.

I don't understand how capital gains taxes work. I thought we only paid that if we sold the company. I don't see how this affects most small businesses.


Obama and Biden will
support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in
America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll
tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.

That's fine. I don't mind that. It's not a huge deal, but it helps.

Expand Loan Programs for Small Businesses: Access to capital is a top concern among small business
owners. Barack Obama cosponsored the bipartisan Small Business Lending Reauthorization and Improvements
Act. This bill expands the Small Business Administration’s loan and micro-loan programs which provide startup
and long-term financing that small firms cannot receive through normal channels. Obama and Biden will
work to help more entrepreneurs get loans, expand the network of lenders, and simplify the loan approval
process.

Loans? I don't want loans. Whatever, maybe it works for other people, but it seems like it'll cost me some tax money to set it up.

Support Innovation and High-Tech Job Creation: Barack Obama believes we need to double federal
funding for basic research, diversify energy sources, expand the deployment of broadband technology, and
make the research and development tax credit permanent so that businesses can invest in innovation and create
high-paying, secure jobs.

Um...yeah. Don't think this is a small business deal. Sounds like increased taxes to me. Maybe a long-term benefit for future businesses, but not mine.

Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will
support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business
incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies.
They offer help designing business plans, provide physical space, identify and address problems affecting all
small businesses within a given community, and give advice on a wide range of business practices, including
reducing overhead costs. Business incubators will engage the expertise and resources of local institutions of
higher education and successful private sector businesses to help ensure that small businesses have both a strong
plan and the resources for long-term success. Obama and Biden will invest $250 million per year to increase
the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.

Taxing me to create new competitors for me. No, thanks.


Invest in Women-Owned Small Businesses: Women are majority owners of more than 28 percent of U.S.
businesses, but lead less than 4 percent of venture capital-backed firms. Women business owners are more
likely than white male business owners to have their loan applications denied. Barack Obama and Joe Biden
encourage investment in women-owned businesses, providing more support to women business owners and
reducing discrimination in lending. To create greater opportunities for women business owners who would like
to do business with the federal government, Obama and Biden will implement the Women Owned Business
contracting program that was signed into law by President Bill Clinton, but has yet to be implemented by the
Bush Administration.

Taxing me to help my competitors. No, thanks.



Increasing Minority Access to Capital: Access to venture capital is critically important to the development of
minority-owned businesses. Yet there has been a growing gap between the amounts of venture capital available
to minority-owned small businesses compared to other small businesses. Less than 1 percent of the $250 billion
in venture capital dollars invested annually nationwide has been directed to the country’s 4.4 million minority
business owners. And in recent years, there has been a significant decline in the share of Small Business
Investment Company financings that have gone to minority-owned and women-owned businesses. In order to
increase their size, capacity, and ability to do business with the federal government, and to compete in the open
market, minority firms need greater access to venture capital investment, as well as greater access to business
loans. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will strengthen Small Business Administration programs that provide
capital to minority-owned businesses, support outreach programs that help minority business owners apply for
loans, and work to encourage the growth and capacity of minority firms.

Taxing me to help my competitors. No, thanks.

Promote Small Business Ownership in the Communications Industry: Barack Obama joined Senator John
Kerry (D-MA) in calling on the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to immediately address the issues
of minority, women and small business media ownership before taking up a second review of wider media
ownership rules. Obama has continued that fight by urging the FCC to establish an independent panel on
minority and small business media ownership. As president, Obama will support efforts to achieve diverse
media ownership, particularly in an era of increased media concentration.

Sounds like higher taxes for me. It's not a bad use of tax dollars, though.

Support Local Businesses Affected by Hurricane Katrina: In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Barack Obama
introduced the Hurricane Katrina Recovery Act to rebuild the Gulf Coast. This bill included language to
increase the government-wide goal for procurement contracts awarded to small businesses owned and
controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals for recovery and reconstruction activities
related to Hurricane Katrina. Obama also established a government-wide goal for procurement contracts
awarded to local businesses in Katrina-affected areas of 30 percent of that total value for 2006 and 2007.

Just a cloaked affirmative action bill to tax me and help my competitors. No, thanks.




Provide Emergency Relief: Barack Obama supported legislation to provide emergency relief to small
businesses affected by a significant increase in the price of heating oil, natural gas, propane, or kerosene. This
bill authorized the Small Business Administration to make disaster loans to assist small businesses that have
suffered or are likely to suffer substantial economic injury as the result of a significant increase in the price of
heating fuel.

Huh? Why can't the private sector take care of this? No need to raise my taxes for this.

Support Rural Small Businesses: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will support entrepreneurship and spur job
growth by establishing a small business and micro-enterprise initiative for rural America. The program will
provide training and technical assistance for rural small business, and provide a 20 percent tax credit on up to
$50,000 of investment in small owner-operated businesses. This initiative will put the full support of the
nation’s economic policies behind rural entrepreneurship.

Tax me to help my competitors. No, thanks. They need to move where the business is. Stop interfering with capitalism.

Promote Digital Inclusion: The lack of affordable, high-speed Internet access in rural, urban, and minority
communities has created a digital divide between those who have access to the Internet and those who do not.
This severely limits the growth potential of many urban and rural companies. Approximately only one-third of
rural areas and half of urban areas have high-speed Internet at home or work. The areas affected by Hurricane
Katrina have particularly suffered due to a lack of IT infrastructure. Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe we
can get true broadband to every community in America through a combination of reform of the Universal
Service Fund, better use of the nation’s wireless spectrum, promotion of next-generation technologies, and new
tax and loan incentives. As a key step to achieving full broadband access, Obama believes the Federal
Communications Commission should provide an accurate map of broadband availability using a true definition
of broadband instead of the current 200 kbs standard and an assessment of obstacles to fuller broadband
penetration.

Um...why can't the private sector handle this? No need for tax dollars to pay for this.

RJ
09-19-2008, 12:26 PM
Off topic, but looking at that Obama small business plan, I could see a lot of guys installing their wives as figurehead owners of a business in order to get the benefits.


That already happens, though I suppose it might happen more. The business I work for is owned by several partners with the lone female listed as President. There are times when it comes in handy, especially with government bids.

bkkcoh
09-19-2008, 12:29 PM
Off topic, but looking at that Obama small business plan, I could see a lot of guys installing their wives as figurehead owners of a business in order to get the benefits.


That has already taken place, there are a lot of business' in which a women was set-up as CEO or owner of the company in order to take advantage of minority ownership.


How Does Unregulated Corporate Greed Create Jobs and Increase Wages?

You have to have reasonable regulation for both growth and success. The tide rises and falls on the amount of regulation and/or taxes depending on which party is in the executive branch.

Once again, it would seem to make sense to put the country first in this regard. Instead of how both parties have tried to accomplish regulation and/or taxes.

BucEyedPea
09-19-2008, 12:49 PM
Obama just said his "basic belief" in the economy is that higher taxes create jobs and increases wages. Simple question: how? If I have to pay more to the government as a business owner I'm going to cut jobs and wages and increase prices to make up the difference.

I guess I'm unpatriotic. ;)

My guess would be he says that because he's trained as a Keynesian, or at least is a believer in it. Suffers from the fallacy that govt debt, which leads to artificial stimulation of the economy to monetarize that debt, for the utopian idea of managing the economy to keep employment up by encouraging spending. The subsequent inflation, if one is lucky to have their wages keep up with it, is their increased wage. Smoke n' mirrors. This is what passes for education in economics today—trying to build a utopia so no one feels a market correction when that is what is needed. Cripes! Even Wall Street cheered for socialism yesterday.

The only reason this inflation didn't really show was due to the cheap imports.

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 12:59 PM
Obama just said his "basic belief" in the economy is that higher taxes create jobs and increases wages. Simple question: how? If I have to pay more to the government as a business owner I'm going to cut jobs and wages and increase prices to make up the difference.

I guess I'm unpatriotic. ;)The argument is, that the little people will spend the gift checks that MacDaddy Santa clause will be dolin out to all us poh folk. That will multiply through the economy. Those rich folk, just spend it on ice scultures and conspicuous consumption that doesn't help anyone but the rich dudes ego.

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 01:02 PM
My guess would be he says that because he's trained as a Keynesian, or at least is a believer in it. Suffers from the fallacy that govt debt, which leads to artificial stimulation of the economy to monetarize that debt, for the utopian idea of managing the economy to keep employment up by encouraging spending. The subsequent inflation, if one is lucky to have their wages keep up with it, is their increased wage. Smoke n' mirrors. This is what passes for education in economics today—trying to build a utopia so no one feels a market correction when that is what is needed. Cripes! Even Wall Street cheered for socialism yesterday.

The only reason this inflation didn't really show was due to the cheap imports.I am asking you this, because I respect your knowledge of econ. Have you given any thought to whether or not the government acually gives a damn how much debt it piles up? If so, have you ever wondered why?

I would be interested in any hypothesis on why they feel so confident with the purse, or printing press, that they bail out a Katrina here, and an AIG there. Billions for a stimulas check on the one hand, and half a trillion for the WOT on the other, without even batting an eye?

ChiTown
09-19-2008, 01:03 PM
Off topic, but looking at that Obama small business plan, I could see a lot of guys installing their wives as figurehead owners of a business in order to get the benefits.

I do that now.

Brock
09-19-2008, 01:05 PM
I do that now.

I'm wondering how much more it's going to be worth, in government kickbacks and soforth.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 01:05 PM
I am asking you this, because I respect your knowledge of econ. Have you given any thought to whether or not the government acually gives a damn how much debt it piles up? If so, have you ever wondered why?

I would be interested in any hypothesis on why they feel so confident with the purse, or printing press, that they bail out a Katrina here, and an AIG there. Billions for a stimulas check on the one hand, and half a trillion for the WOT on the other, without even batting an eye?

I'm pretty sure the AIG deal will yield mad profit over the long run.

However, the short answer is, IMO: Congress doesn't have to act rationally. They are government, what do they care?

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 01:13 PM
I'm pretty sure the AIG deal will yield mad profit over the long run.

However, the short answer is, IMO: Congress doesn't have to act rationally. They are government, what do they care?I have a suspicion, that it is much deeper than that, and they all know it. Bush, Pelosi, reed, Rangel, Biden, Dodd.

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 01:14 PM
I have a suspicion, that it is much deeper than that, and they all know it. Bush, Pelosi, reed, Rangel, Biden, Dodd.Heck, to be fair, add Gingrich and Lott to the list.

RJ
09-19-2008, 01:46 PM
I am asking you this, because I respect your knowledge of econ. Have you given any thought to whether or not the government acually gives a damn how much debt it piles up? If so, have you ever wondered why?

I would be interested in any hypothesis on why they feel so confident with the purse, or printing press, that they bail out a Katrina here, and an AIG there. Billions for a stimulas check on the one hand, and half a trillion for the WOT on the other, without even batting an eye?


Those are great questions. I'm amazed at the amount of money the government has committed in just the past few weeks without even a hint of an explanation as to where the funds are coming from.

tiptap
09-19-2008, 01:59 PM
We have the largest reserve of coal. We have the most productive farm lands. We have some of the best Universities in the world. We have a very productive job force. We have a huge capacity to be more frugal with oil imports. We are isolated from the Eastern Hemisphere. All of these things plus a lot more makes it easy to postulate that with discipline, unseen by the Republicans, we can navigate that debt. Especially if there is a chance of seeing that debt actually be returned to the treasury with bettor times.

HolyHandgernade
09-19-2008, 04:31 PM
Regulation is kind of a different topic than taxes entirely.

It was meant to be a bland overgeneralization that said nothing but had intentions of raising the ire of people who felt it threatened their political ideology.

People hear "raised taxes" and they get all bent out of shape like government just wants your money, which I'm sure they do, but to infer that said money never could be put to raise the general welfare of a nation is a scare tactic. One that admittedly works, which is why the Republicans always use it.

I just don't know if my humor towards these types of thread headlines ( admittely on both sides) is a symptom of my increasing cynicism or ambivilency. Either way, it's a joke tht people treat the welfare of a nation in such a way. I don't know id Obama will lead us in a new direcion of how we think of our fellow citizens, but I know the McCain camp does not, nor do scare tactics such as these represent much clamoring for it. Not because Ringleader employed it, but because so many are paralysed by the fear it represents.

-HH

banyon
09-19-2008, 04:33 PM
Obama just said his "basic belief" in the economy is that higher taxes create jobs and increases wages. Simple question: how? If I have to pay more to the government as a business owner I'm going to cut jobs and wages and increase prices to make up the difference.

I guess I'm unpatriotic. ;)

Y - C+ I + G + NX

You have not altered that equation.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:34 PM
Y - C+ I + G + NX

You have not altered that equation.

Yes you have. government expenditures are not net in your equation.

banyon
09-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Yes you have. government expenditures are not net in your equation.

What? Neither is C, nor I "net". How does that affect the numbers in the equation if you have the following?


200 (Y) = 100 (C) + 30 (I) + 40 (G) + 30 (NX) - situation 1

200 (y) = 80 (C) + 30 (I) + 60 (G) + 30 (NX) - situation 2

Logical
09-20-2008, 12:25 AM
What? Neither is C, nor I "net". How does that affect the numbers in the equation if you have the following?


200 (Y) = 100 (C) + 30 (I) + 40 (G) + 30 (NX) - situation 1

200 (y) = 80 (C) + 30 (I) + 60 (G) + 30 (NX) - situation 2
Gee I didnt expect to have to do algebra.

Logical
09-20-2008, 12:29 AM
Gee I didnt expect to have to do algebra.
By the way are we solving for X?

InChiefsHell
09-20-2008, 12:40 AM
I'm a Republican.

Having said that, I've friggin' had it with all of them.

When is America, or at least the people on this board, going to realize that these parties are all about getting elected, handing out money to the "starving masses", minimizing the effects of economic downturns so they don't get blamed and can blame the other party, all the while the deficit baloons out of control, we are bailing out companies because the government encouraged them to be stupid with their money (and I guarantee you that we are not just bailing out companies, we will see assholes trying to sneak all kinds of creative bullshit into this legislation) spending money on entitlements that we just don't fuggin' have because they don't want to be seen as "uncaring"...

It's like a bunch of goddam teenagers are running our country, and we all sit around rooting for our ****in' team to win...while America is about to have it's credit rating dropped because we just ain't a good risk anymore. Of course, we all sit there and buy cheap shit from the Chinese, so what do we care? We want our team to win, so Go Obama, Mcain is evil, Palin is a figurehead! Go McCain, Obama is in bed with a mean racist preacher and has a bunch of shady dealings with the dickhead who ran Freddie **** and fannie beotch an a terrorist...all those are important if you DON'T CARE ABOUT THE REAL PROBLEM!!! Which apparently we don't in this stupid nation of entitlement addicted pussies that we've become!!

I can't believe I voted for Bush twice. This guy has turned out to be the biggest socialist president we've probably ever had. Sure, he cut taxes, and then spent our asses into oblivion...with the congress and the senate happily obliging...that's why his approval rating is like 29% and the Democratic congress is 9%...THEY ALL SUCK BAOWS!!! I used to believe...I really did. Then this week happened and Wall Street celebrated socialism...what...the...****?!?!?!???

I have no one to vote for! I was on the McCain bandwagon for a little while, but this week has shown me what it was I didn't like about him before the hockey mom pick. He's a wishy washy panderer. Obama is a Marxist...what the hell am I to do??

...I think I'll pour another. Might be the last bottle I can afford. While I'm at it, I'm going to smoke a cigarrette while it's still legal to do in my house. After that, I'm going to turn on some talk radio while it's still allowed on the air., before Nobama wins the election and CHANGES everything to include the "fairness doctrine" and taxes businesses out of business...no worries folks...WE'LL JUST BAIL THEM OUT...they will be companies of the people! Yeeee****inhaaaaawww!!

...all will be well, comrade. Never you mind...

BucEyedPea
09-20-2008, 12:45 AM
I am asking you this, because I respect your knowledge of econ. Have you given any thought to whether or not the government acually gives a damn how much debt it piles up? If so, have you ever wondered why?
Occassionally have wondered. I have no conclusions except that they're all really left progressives. There really seems to be no intention to stop it. Just saw a breakdown of Republican presidencies and 4 out of 5 have this track record...to a degree.

I would be interested in any hypothesis on why they feel so confident with the purse, or printing press, that they bail out a Katrina here, and an AIG there. Billions for a stimulas check on the one hand, and half a trillion for the WOT on the other, without even batting an eye?
The only thing I can think of is Bernanke has said when he came on that "deficits don't matter." Obviously, he is acting in accordance with that.

Logical
09-20-2008, 12:45 AM
ICH,

Nice rant.

jAZ
09-20-2008, 12:52 AM
The only way to ask that question with a straight face is to someone believe that deficits don't matter.

InChiefsHell
09-20-2008, 12:53 AM
ICH,

Nice rant.

Heh. Thanks. I wish I felt better...:shake:

InChiefsHell
09-20-2008, 12:54 AM
The only way to ask that question with a straight face is to someone believe that deficits don't matter.

OK, I'll bite.

What would someone who DOES believe that deficits matter have to say to this question?

jAZ
09-20-2008, 01:02 AM
OK, I'll bite.

What would someone who DOES believe that deficits matter have to say to this question?
First of all, deficits matter, and Dick Cheney is an idiot.

Second, isn't it self evident? Paying down the deficit creates a fundamentally more robust economic climate which improves job creation.

InChiefsHell
09-20-2008, 01:08 AM
First of all, deficits matter, and Dick Cheney is an idiot.

Second, isn't it self evident? Paying down the deficit creates a fundamentally more robust economic climate which improves job creation.

So taxing businesses so that they have to lay off workers and or raise prices to not curtail their profits motivates them and therefore pays down the debt and creates jobs...gotcha...:shake:

jAZ
09-20-2008, 01:18 AM
So taxing businesses so that they have to lay off workers and or raise prices to not curtail their profits motivates them and therefore pays down the debt and creates jobs...gotcha...:shake:
There are lots of ways and timings for increasing tax rates in a smart and sensible way. Your attempt to trivialize that away doesn't help the discussion.

Nightfyre
09-20-2008, 01:43 AM
What? Neither is C, nor I "net". How does that affect the numbers in the equation if you have the following?


200 (Y) = 100 (C) + 30 (I) + 40 (G) + 30 (NX) - situation 1

200 (y) = 80 (C) + 30 (I) + 60 (G) + 30 (NX) - situation 2
Government expenditures are not tied to taxes. Therefore, by deficit spending you increase GDP by allowing more consumption to take place; and by reducing taxes, all you do is reduce consumption or investment.

banyon
09-20-2008, 09:52 AM
Government expenditures are not tied to taxes. Therefore, by deficit spending you increase GDP by allowing more consumption to take place; and by reducing taxes, all you do is reduce consumption or investment.

I'm pretty sure government expenditures are directly linked to and require taxes.

The only way taxes don't increase "G" in the equation is if we use the vast majority of tax money to retire foreign debt (which we haven't so far). Otherwise, it must be used to purchase a good or service.

Nightfyre
09-20-2008, 11:51 AM
I'm pretty sure government expenditures are directly linked to and require taxes.

The only way taxes don't increase "G" in the equation is if we use the vast majority of tax money to retire foreign debt (which we haven't so far). Otherwise, it must be used to purchase a good or service.

That would be true if we were operating at a surplus, but you're missing my point. Because congress has separated the concepts of expenditures and taxation and because we are deficit spending, if we raise taxes we decrease capital available for I and P but do not directly increase G. We borrow less, but that is not reflected in GDP.

This brings me to the point of why GDP is a joke of a statistic. The government can just deficit spend to increase GDP and fake like we're not in a recession in principle.

banyon
09-20-2008, 11:55 AM
That would be true if we were operating at a surplus, but you're missing my point. Because congress has separated the concepts of expenditures and taxation and because we are deficit spending, if we raise taxes we decrease capital available for I and P but do not directly increase G. We borrow less, but that is not reflected in GDP.

This brings me to the point of why GDP is a joke of a statistic. The government can just deficit spend to increase GDP and fake like we're not in a recession in principle.

Where do you think the tax money goes? Into a black hole?

Nightfyre
09-20-2008, 12:03 PM
Where do you think the tax money goes? Into a black hole?

My point is that the source of the Government spending does not matter.

If we expend 500b of which 150b comes from taxes and 350b comes from debt, we still expended 500b. If we collect more taxes and we still expend 500b 200b of which comes from taxes and 300b comes from debt, we still expended 500b. So effectively from a pure GDP standpoint: yea taxes go into a black hole.

banyon
09-20-2008, 12:10 PM
My point is that the source of the Government spending does not matter.

If we expend 500b of which 150b comes from taxes and 350b comes from debt, we still expended 500b. If we collect more taxes and we still expend 500b 200b of which comes from taxes and 300b comes from debt, we still expended 500b. So effectively from a pure GDP standpoint: yea taxes go into a black hole.

That's not what this thread is about. You are adding another variable to the equation (deficit spending) rather than granting my premise and working from there. You must either deny my premise is true, or deny that the equation is valid, but you can't refuse to address the premise. The thread is about whether taxing business will necessarily lead to a drop in the overall health of the economy.

As Republicans (not you) should remember, Clinton raised taxes in the early-mid 90's and we did not go into another Depression.

Nightfyre
09-20-2008, 06:00 PM
That's not what this thread is about. You are adding another variable to the equation (deficit spending) rather than granting my premise and working from there. You must either deny my premise is true, or deny that the equation is valid, but you can't refuse to address the premise. The thread is about whether taxing business will necessarily lead to a drop in the overall health of the economy.

As Republicans (not you) should remember, Clinton raised taxes in the early-mid 90's and we did not go into another Depression.

My point is that GDP is not a true measure of economic health. And I think we can all agree that government "production" is less valuable per dollar than other forms of production.

banyon
09-20-2008, 06:18 PM
My point is that GDP is not a true measure of economic health. And I think we can all agree that government "production" is less valuable per dollar than other forms of production.

That wasn't originally your point, but I will agree that it is not an ideal measure. I think there can be massive waste and corruption in either form of production so I don't make much of a distinction here.

HonestChieffan
09-21-2008, 05:54 PM
In the mind of the freeloader and the people who believe Govt is here to support them, the economy is unimportant. Its all about wealth redistribution with no regard for how wealth is created. As long as they do nothing happily and get rewarded, they dont care.

redbrian
09-21-2008, 10:11 PM
That already happens, though I suppose it might happen more. The business I work for is owned by several partners with the lone female listed as President. There are times when it comes in handy, especially with government bids.

It is already rampet in the construction industry.....either a wife or a figurehead minorty is put at the head of the company.....

patteeu
09-22-2008, 07:34 AM
I'm a Republican.

Having said that, I've friggin' had it with all of them.

When is America, or at least the people on this board, going to realize that these parties are all about getting elected, handing out money to the "starving masses", minimizing the effects of economic downturns so they don't get blamed and can blame the other party, all the while the deficit baloons out of control, we are bailing out companies because the government encouraged them to be stupid with their money (and I guarantee you that we are not just bailing out companies, we will see assholes trying to sneak all kinds of creative bullshit into this legislation) spending money on entitlements that we just don't fuggin' have because they don't want to be seen as "uncaring"...

It's like a bunch of goddam teenagers are running our country, and we all sit around rooting for our ****in' team to win...while America is about to have it's credit rating dropped because we just ain't a good risk anymore. Of course, we all sit there and buy cheap shit from the Chinese, so what do we care? We want our team to win, so Go Obama, Mcain is evil, Palin is a figurehead! Go McCain, Obama is in bed with a mean racist preacher and has a bunch of shady dealings with the dickhead who ran Freddie **** and fannie beotch an a terrorist...all those are important if you DON'T CARE ABOUT THE REAL PROBLEM!!! Which apparently we don't in this stupid nation of entitlement addicted pussies that we've become!!

I can't believe I voted for Bush twice. This guy has turned out to be the biggest socialist president we've probably ever had. Sure, he cut taxes, and then spent our asses into oblivion...with the congress and the senate happily obliging...that's why his approval rating is like 29% and the Democratic congress is 9%...THEY ALL SUCK BAOWS!!! I used to believe...I really did. Then this week happened and Wall Street celebrated socialism...what...the...****?!?!?!???

I have no one to vote for! I was on the McCain bandwagon for a little while, but this week has shown me what it was I didn't like about him before the hockey mom pick. He's a wishy washy panderer. Obama is a Marxist...what the hell am I to do??

...I think I'll pour another. Might be the last bottle I can afford. While I'm at it, I'm going to smoke a cigarrette while it's still legal to do in my house. After that, I'm going to turn on some talk radio while it's still allowed on the air., before Nobama wins the election and CHANGES everything to include the "fairness doctrine" and taxes businesses out of business...no worries folks...WE'LL JUST BAIL THEM OUT...they will be companies of the people! Yeeee****inhaaaaawww!!

...all will be well, comrade. Never you mind...

Wishy washy panderer > Marxist

patteeu
09-22-2008, 07:36 AM
First of all, deficits matter, and Dick Cheney is an idiot.

Second, isn't it self evident? Paying down the deficit creates a fundamentally more robust economic climate which improves job creation.

:rolleyes: Great argument. /sarcasm

ROYC75
09-22-2008, 09:17 AM
Where do you think the tax money goes? Into a black hole?


Sometimes I wonder about that ....... :D