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View Full Version : Elections ****Official Critical Thinking Thread**** Honestly Critique Your Candidate


'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 02:26 PM
I'm creating this thread as a way to actually gauge if some people on this thread have any synaptic power worth saving, or if the hive mind is so far beyond hope, that it is best to become the Don Rickles of DC and function as nothing but an insult poster.


Here goes.


I support Barack Obama.

Although I support Obama, I have a variety of problems with some of his platforms and previous issue stances. I will henceforth address these:

• Gay Marriage--I wish that he would have taken a more liberal line on this. I understand that he supports civil unions, but I do feel that this is somewhat of a political cop out. You can't say that marriage is a church institution when it has to be recognized by the state in order for it to be valid.

• FISA--I still don't understand why he flipped on this issue. The last thing that we need is to give the government even more authority of surveying our everyday lives. The government works for the people and should not remove the individual's autonomy to conduct him/herself without a court order

• Israel--The United States government gives more aid to Israel than any other country. We sell huge amounts of arms to them, and have privately engineered their entire nuclear program. They act as an antagonist in the region just as much as they are picked on, and our continued meddling in their affairs has led directly the many of the problems we face in the Muslim world. Despite this, both candidates feel compelled to continually support a terrorist state.

• Continued support of the military-industrial complex--one of the biggest problems of our current budget crisis is the fact that we continually spend billions of dollars acquiring new weapons systems so that we can have the best of the best in every aspect of military hardware. This is neither advisable nor sustainable. The United States already has more than enough economic clout as well as military firepower to serve as a deterrent to any nation on earth, yet due to the unnecessary influence of the Iron Triangle, we continue to redistribute wealth from the ordinary citizen to companies that make weapons of death and destruction

•Christianity--I think that Obama wraps too much of his personal rhetoric in Christianity at times. It is nowhere near as copious as George W. Bush, but it is still too much for my personal liking. I respect that he is a man of faith, but I don't feel it necessary for him to mention it as often as he does.

In spite of these qualms (some of them large), I will still vote for Obama, as I feel that he is the best of the candidates in this election, and will be able to deliver on policy that I find most important to me.

I encourage the rest of you to engage in similar acts of intellectual calisthenics, and state areas of contention with your preferred candidate. It might prove enlightening.

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 02:35 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 02:35 PM
I think we have had this type of thread done before but I will do it again just for you..

I am obviously a supporter of Obama but I disagree with him on:

1. Illegal Immigration - I am a far-right wing nut zealot on this issue. I believe the military should be on the border shooting illegals until they stop coming across. I believe putting a moratorium on legal immigration for 5 years until we can clean up the mess previous administrations have left us.

2. FISA - for all the obvious reasons. Even though he did support an amendment to block immunity for telecoms he should have just not supported the whole bill. The telecoms should be held liable and people should sue so the government could bail them out.

3. Energy - I am lukewarm on his energy policy I believe he needs to be more aggressive in getting us off foregin oil.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 02:37 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.

You are suppose to critique the person you are supporting not the one you are not.

HolmeZz
09-19-2008, 02:38 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.

Are you *****ing mentally retarded?

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 02:39 PM
Are you *****ing mentally retarded?

Be nice Holmezz. We are supposed to be critical thinkers in this thread not insult throwers

Jenson71
09-19-2008, 02:40 PM
I don't support Obama because:

LMAO

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 02:42 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.

Thank you for showing me how much thought you've put into John McCain's stances.

Pablo
09-19-2008, 02:44 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.How awesome will it be when you read the ballot backwards and actually cast a vote for Obama?

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 02:45 PM
I support Ron Paul. My critique at this point would be:
1) He has an overly simplistic view of the free-market.
Despite what he says, you do require a safe and secure marketplace. In particular, you need SOMEONE to prevent insider trading and collusion. Otherwise you have a market that is not free, but is a despotism whereby colluding parties can kill companies at a whim and at a hefty profit. This is constitutional in the respect that congress has the power to legislate interstate commerce.

Chiefshrink
09-19-2008, 02:46 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.

Don't forget the 3bil theft for affirmitive action housing!!:cuss:Politics as usual

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Thank you for showing me how much thought you've put into John McCain's stances.

I have been pretty clear about the fact that I don't like either. I still think McCain will win even with all the BS going on in the financial markets.

If Obama is the future direction this country is taking I won't be here after the P's pass. I believe the country will experience the mass exodus of America similar the the fasion it is happening in California right now. JMO

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 02:55 PM
I have been pretty clear about the fact that I don't like either. I still think McCain will win even with all the BS going on in the financial markets.

If Obama is the future direction this country is taking I won't be here after the P's pass. I believe the country will experience the mass exodus of America similar the the fasion it is happening in California right now. JMO

I'm surprised it didn't happen after dumbya got re-elected.

BigCatDaddy
09-19-2008, 02:55 PM
I think we have had this type of thread done before but I will do it again just for you..

I am obviously a supporter of Obama but I disagree with him on:

1. Illegal Immigration - I am a far-right wing nut zealot on this issue. I believe the military should be on the border shooting illegals until they stop coming across. I believe putting a moratorium on legal immigration for 5 years until we can clean up the mess previous administrations have left us.



Can either candidate really come out so strong against illegal immigration and expect to win the election? Really for all we know, both could have the same stance as you, but not be able to expess that belief. They would have as much chance of winning if they said "Tax Increase For Everyone", because of the high number of hispanics that are now able to vote.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Can either candidate really come out so strong against illegal immigration and expect to win the election? Really for all we know, both could have the same stance as you, but not be able to expess that belief. They would have as much chance of winning if they said "Tax Increase For Everyone", because of the high number of hispanics that are now able to vote.

I am pretty confidant neither Obama or McCain feel like I do.

With that being said IMO if one would take a hard stand on it they would win because it is such a powerful issue in this country. When that amnesty bill that McCain help write was close to passing upwards of 70-80% of Americans were against it.

People in this country feel like we are getting crowded out by all the Hispanics and something has to be done about it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 03:03 PM
McCain voters? Buehler? Buehler?

BigCatDaddy
09-19-2008, 03:06 PM
I am pretty confidant neither Obama or McCain feel like I do.

With that being said IMO if one would take a hard stand on it they would win because it is such a powerful issue in this country. When that amnesty bill that McCain help write was close to passing upwards of 70-80% of Americans were against it.

People in this country feel like we are getting crowded out by all the Hispanics and something has to be done about it.


I don't know if that issue is enough to get a voter to cross the isle and and a candidate can't afford to get 5% of the hispanic vote and expect to win. I agree with you 100%, and I expect neither candidate is close to our position at this time, but if one was. Thompson seemed to have the stance I felt the most strongly about.

http://www.fred08.com/Principles/PrinciplesSummary.aspx?View=OnTheIssues

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:09 PM
McCain voters? Buehler? Buehler?

The thread is a ruse to draw McCain supporters out so you can continue the ridicule the liberals on this board thrive on.

I support John McCain because he is NOT a liberal and is not Barry Obslama.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:12 PM
I find it curious that people would vote for McCain just because he is not someone else. They defend him like he's the second coming, but when asked to label his virtues they cannot. Makes one wonder why they tout him so, when it seems his only qualifying attribute is that he's not Obama.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:12 PM
I don't know if that issue is enough to get a voter to cross the isle and and a candidate can't afford to get 5% of the hispanic vote and expect to win. I agree with you 100%, and I expect neither candidate is close to our position at this time, but if one was. Thompson seemed to have the stance I felt the most strongly about.

http://www.fred08.com/Principles/PrinciplesSummary.aspx?View=OnTheIssues

You are probably right. You would have to really make it about saving America vs Mexicans. Then people would be accusing you of racism and all kinds of shit. Also Tom Tancredo really didn't make it very far and immigration was his central platform.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:13 PM
The thread is a ruse to draw McCain supporters out so you can continue the ridicule the liberals on this board thrive on.

I support John McCain because he is NOT a liberal and is not Barry Obslama.

Why can't you be honest? I did and so did Hamas. Is it so hard to find things right or wrong with the candidate you support and talk about them?

BigCatDaddy
09-19-2008, 03:18 PM
I'll play along.

1. Global Warming/ Environment - I think McCain is too Liberal on this issue of global warming and needs to be more open to drilling in ANWAR and any place else loaded with oil.

2. Immigration - His amnesty bill blew ass, and he needs to put the national guard on the border on top of a 20 foot cement wall, with order to shoot to kill, or maybe just in the leg or something :)

3. Tax Cuts- We don't need them. Keep everybody's rate's the same, and just work on cutting back Joe Citizen's cost for energy (gas, natural gas, etc) and keep inflation low.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:21 PM
Why can't you be honest? I did and so did Hamas. Is it so hard to find things right or wrong with the candidate you support and talk about them?


That is honest. That is two of the reasons that I'm voting for McCain.

Obama is totally not the person we need running the country. Especially now.

BigCatDaddy
09-19-2008, 03:22 PM
I find it curious that people would vote for McCain just because he is not someone else. .


Kerry got quite a few votes that way.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:26 PM
I find it curious that people would vote for McCain just because he is not someone else. They defend him like he's the second coming, but when asked to label his virtues they cannot. Makes one wonder why they tout him so, when it seems his only qualifying attribute is that he's not Obama.

Arguing again?

You read much more into a post than is there. ONE of the reasons that I will vote for McCain is that he is not Obama.

BTW, McCain isn't the one that has been compared by those on the left as Jesus Christ, however Obama has been on numerous occasions.

His virtues are mostly the opposite of Obama, I guess that seems to involved for you to understand. McCain has the best interests of the country at stake, Obama has another agenda that has nothing to do with the interests of the people of the U.S.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:27 PM
That is honest. That is two of the reasons that I'm voting for McCain.

Obama is totally not the person we need running the country. Especially now.


Nice intelligent thinking.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Kerry got quite a few votes that way.

Guess who one of those votes were from?

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:28 PM
Nice intelligent thinking.

Your snide remark shows that you lack the ability to think intelligibly.

Keep working yourself into the hole.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:30 PM
Arguing again?

You read much more into a post than is there. ONE of the reasons that I will vote for McCain is that he is not Obama.

BTW, McCain isn't the one that has been compared by those on the left as Jesus Christ, however Obama has been on numerous occasions.

His virtues are mostly the opposite of Obama, I guess that seems to involved for you to understand. McCain has the best interests of the country at stake, Obama has another agenda that has nothing to do with the interests of the people of the U.S.

I tell you what. I know why I'm voting for my candidate. I know it's not because he's not John McCain. Don't flatter yourself into thinking that statement was about you, you're just a lonely angry man who gets joy from irritating others. Go ahead and call me some names like a 4th grader and then stand up and say you're more mature. Your schtick is so old I now see why you were repeatedly banned.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:30 PM
That is honest. That is two of the reasons that I'm voting for McCain.

Obama is totally not the person we need running the country. Especially now.

The point of the thread is to state differences you have with the person you are supporting.

What don't you like about McCain?

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:30 PM
Your snide remark shows that you lack the ability to think intelligibly.

Keep working yourself into the hole.

and Exactly what hole is that?

Carlota69
09-19-2008, 03:31 PM
Arguing again?

You read much more into a post than is there. ONE of the reasons that I will vote for McCain is that he is not Obama.

BTW, McCain isn't the one that has been compared by those on the left as Jesus Christ, however Obama has been on numerous occasions.

His virtues are mostly the opposite of Obama, I guess that seems to involved for you to understand. McCain has the best interests of the country at stake, Obama has another agenda that has nothing to do with the interests of the people of the U.S.
It is very clear why you wont be voting for Obama. It is also very clear tat you dont like Obama.

What is it that bothers you about MCCain? Thats is the question at hand. we know you are still going to vote for him, but what concerns do you have about him?

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 03:32 PM
I find it curious that people would vote for McCain just because he is not someone else. They defend him like he's the second coming, but when asked to label his virtues they cannot. Makes one wonder why they tout him so, when it seems his only qualifying attribute is that he's not Obama.

Who is defending him like he is the 2nd coming? I see exactly the opposite. Obama supports act like he can pay off trillions in a financial bailout and initiate trillions more in additional spending and do it without raising our taxes. What's next he walks on water?

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:32 PM
It is very clear why you wont be voting for Obama. It is also very clear tat you dont like Obama.

What is it that bothers you about MCCain? Thats is the question at hand. we know you are still going to vote for him, but what concerns do you have about him?

You have to speak troll or he doesn't understand you.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:34 PM
Who is defending him like he is the 2nd coming? I see exactly the opposite. Obama supports act like he can pay off trillions in a financial bailout and initiate trillions more in additional spending and do it without raising our taxes. What's next he walks on water?

So nobody is defending McCain?

Why would you vote for someone you can't defend?

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:36 PM
It is very clear why you wont be voting for Obama. It is also very clear tat you dont like Obama.

What is it that bothers you about MCCain? Thats is the question at hand. we know you are still going to vote for him, but what concerns do you have about him?

I'll save that for later when I have time to give a response that isn't jsut a quick smartass response.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:37 PM
You have to speak troll or he doesn't understand you.


More personal attacks? I though you were above all that?

Looks like your true colors always shine through.

HolmeZz
09-19-2008, 03:37 PM
Who is defending him like he is the 2nd coming? I see exactly the opposite. Obama supports act like he can pay off trillions in a financial bailout and initiate trillions more in additional spending and do it without raising our taxes. What's next he walks on water?

This message has been brought to you by the fine folks who want to cut taxes while waging two separate wars, all while passing the buck onto our children and grandchildren.

What a country!

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:38 PM
I tell you what. I know why I'm voting for my candidate. I know it's not because he's not John McCain. Don't flatter yourself into thinking that statement was about you, you're just a lonely angry man who gets joy from irritating others. Go ahead and call me some names like a 4th grader and then stand up and say you're more mature. Your schtick is so old I now see why you were repeatedly banned.

Again, more personal attacks and showing that you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

I think that you need some assistance to get away from the computer.

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 03:38 PM
So nobody is defending McCain?

Why would you vote for someone you can't defend?

I didn't say that, you're the one that said psople were defending him like he was the 2nd coming I was just wanting you to point out who was doing that.

I didn't say I was going to vote for him. That being said I can see why people would vote for just about anyone else because of the reasons I listed earlier in this thread.

Carlota69
09-19-2008, 03:38 PM
I'll save that for later when I have time to give a response that isn't jsut a quick smartass response.

OK, thats fair.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:39 PM
More personal attacks? I though you were above all that?

Looks like your true colors always shine through.

Nope just fighting fire with fire. What is it you called me earlier a chimp?

funny haha

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Nope just fighting fire with fire. What is it you called me earlier a chimp?

funny haha

Not in the current exchange. You are on the offensive and I'm just replying.

You seem to be really pissed off, more comic relief.ROFLROFLROFL

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:41 PM
I didn't say that, you're the one that said psople were defending him like he was the 2nd coming I was just wanting you to point out who was doing that.

I didn't say I was going to vote for him. That being said I can see why people would vote for just about anyone else because of the reasons I listed earlier in this thread.


Throughout the RNC, the entire thread is full of people pumping his plans/vision.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm pretty sure Tom trolls because its the only way he can get through a thread without getting COMPLETELY raked over the coals.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:43 PM
Not in the current exchange. You are on the offensive and I'm just replying.

You seem to be really pissed off, more comic relief.ROFLROFLROFL

Not even close, there's no way you could ever piss me off. I see what you are. Someone who gets satisfaction from others misery. The mere notion that you could influence my mood positively or negatively is laughable at best. In short you are an internet time waster or game.

Yes you are "wack-a-troll"

BucEyedPea
09-19-2008, 03:44 PM
<--------------------- I have nothing to say! :(:shake:

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 03:46 PM
<--------------------- I have nothing to say! :(:shake:

You're not even going to write in Dr. Paul? I guess I'm fortunate cuz he's on the ballot here.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:46 PM
I'm pretty sure Tom trolls because its the only way he can get through a thread without getting COMPLETELY raked over the coals.

Dude, look at your buddy diddy. He's doing the slinging. I've made comments in line with the thread and he is attacking, just as it seems you are.

Too bad you can't respond to the thread posts rather than to attack the poster because you don't agree with his POV.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:47 PM
Not even close, there's no way you could ever piss me off. I see what you are. Someone who gets satisfaction from others misery. The mere notion that you could influence my mood positively or negatively is laughable at best. In short you are an internet time waster or game.



Then why are you going ballistic in two different threads?

Seems like you are giving your anger away.

Good luck when you get anger management classes.

BucEyedPea
09-19-2008, 03:47 PM
You're not even going to write in Dr. Paul? I guess I'm fortunate cuz he's on the ballot here.

I dunno. I read an article over at Lew's yesterday that those don't count unless the guy is registered beforehand. And even then they don't get counted but trashed. :(

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 03:50 PM
Just when I think my opinion of this place can't get any lower, someone grabs a shovel and heads for China.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:50 PM
Then why are you going ballistic in two different threads?

Seems like you are giving your anger away.

Good luck when you get anger management classes.

Quite the contrary.
Me and my buddy are sitting here laughing our asses off at you.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:52 PM
Quite the contrary.
Me and my buddy are sitting here laughing our asses off at you.

Two boys on the computer. Like anyone is going to believe that.

You are very troubled and need to just step away.

Mount your attacks, I don't believe I'm going to listen further.

You are a total waste of bandwidth as well as a total waste of human flesh.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 03:54 PM
Two boys on the computer. Like anyone is going to believe that.

You are very troubled and need to just step away.

Mount your attacks, I don't believe I'm going to listen further.

You are a total waste of bandwidth as well as a total waste of human flesh.

You calling me a waste of human of flesh is kind of like a turd referring to gold as junk.

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 03:54 PM
This message has been brought to you by the fine folks who want to cut taxes while waging two separate wars, all while passing the buck onto our children and grandchildren.

What a country!

I think both are unrealistic to be honest. Taxes are fine we just need to have some integrity brought back into politics. California has the 5th largest economy in the world and we cannot pass a balanced budget in spite of everything we have out here and Ahhhnold has tried to do. Tax and send is all the Dems know out here. Unlike most people on here I don't think this is a partisan problem, I think it's a corruption problem that not only has infiltrated both parties but is so prevelant it is hard to find anyone with any integrity anymore. With absolute power has come absolute corruption.

The problem now has become what direction do we take to get out of here. The politicians play us on our hot button issues and all of us are guilty of playing into that, me included. I want to see a leader that is going to give me more options as a citizen. I want to see a leader that is going to support performance only as a basis for progress so we only end up with the most talented leaders and I want to see an end to this never ending spending. I beleive that McCain is lesser of the two evils when it comes to that but I also believe he is a big government guy he pretends not to be.

I gotta tell you I hate this election, I really do.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 03:55 PM
Dude, look at your buddy diddy. He's doing the slinging. I've made comments in line with the thread and he is attacking, just as it seems you are.

Too bad you can't respond to the thread posts rather than to attack the poster because you don't agree with his POV.
You never expressed a POV in this thread other than to play the victim card citing the "democrats" as the oppressors. Nothing but troll bait.

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 03:59 PM
I'm surprised it didn't happen after dumbya got re-elected.
Most Democrats can't afford a bus pass, let alone an international flight out of the country.

Go ahead, tax the phuggin rich. They are rich enough to ride this shit out, not create any jobs. They can live off the interest dude. They don't have to play by Husseins rules.

DEPRESSION.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:00 PM
The thread is a ruse to draw McCain supporters out so you can continue the ridicule the liberals on this board thrive on.

I support John McCain because he is NOT a liberal and is not Barry Obslama.

You never expressed a POV in this thread other than to play the victim card citing the "democrats" as the oppressors. Nothing but troll bait.

The beginning post on this thread.

I guess you didn't go back that far.

You need to read instead of blindly supporting your buddy diddy.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:01 PM
Most Democrats can't afford a bus pass, let alone an international flight out of the country.

Go ahead, tax the phuggin rich. They are rich enough to ride this shit out, not create any jobs. They can live off the interest dude. They don't have to play by Husseins rules.

DEPRESSION.

Yeah!!!!!!!! I'm wealthier than most democrats then.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:01 PM
More personal attacks for you.
yada yada yada


Give it a rest. You are really starting to prove you are stupid.

ROFLROFL

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:02 PM
The beginning post on this thread.

I guess you didn't go back that far.

You need to read instead of blindly supporting your buddy diddy.



Okay so you support Adolf hitler too then

because he's not a liberal and he's not obama

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:04 PM
Okay so you support Adolf hitler too then

because he's not a liberal and he's not obama

More personal attacks that just make you look like the idiot you are.

ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 04:04 PM
It is very clear why you wont be voting for Obama. It is also very clear tat you dont like Obama.

What is it that bothers you about MCCain? Thats is the question at hand. we know you are still going to vote for him, but what concerns do you have about him?
Clear? It is? Tell me, why?

Because he doesn't look like those other guys on them dollar bills?

If Hussein loses it is going to be because the Jesus freaks and the Racists are not intelligent enough, educated enough, to vote for something that is an Obomination in our eyes.

He is a Marxist.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:05 PM
I'm a troll, I've been kicked off here a bunch of times but I keep coming back because I knew you folks were wrong. So I keep coming back because I can't get no pussy and have no friends. Enjoy what is me.
ROFLROFL


FYP

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:05 PM
The beginning post on this thread.

I guess you didn't go back that far.

You need to read instead of blindly supporting your buddy diddy.


The thread is a ruse to draw McCain supporters out so you can continue the ridicule the liberals on this board thrive on.


The beginning post on this thread.

I guess you didn't go back that far.

You need to read instead of blindly supporting... well, yourself.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:06 PM
More personal attacks that just make you look like the idiot you are.

ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

according to your criteria he fits the bill

so did saddam hussein

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 04:07 PM
Just when I think my opinion of this place can't get any lower, someone grabs a shovel and heads for China.Then why are you here? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:08 PM
Then why are you here? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

wouldn't it be here

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:10 PM
Diddy, you are on your own.

I'm not responding to your little game of attack.

Hope you find a life this weekend.

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 04:11 PM
wouldn't it be hereHuh? WTF? :p

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:11 PM
The beginning post on this thread.

I guess you didn't go back that far.

You need to read instead of blindly supporting... well, yourself.

I see you conveniently discarded the rest of what was in that post.

Typical liberal hack.

RJ
09-19-2008, 04:12 PM
I was going to respond to the thread starter but after reading the thread I changed my mind.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:12 PM
I see you conveniently discarded the rest of what was in that post.

Typical liberal hack.
ROFL... talk about not reading the thread. Its ok, tom. Your and idiot.

Carlota69
09-19-2008, 04:13 PM
Clear? It is? Tell me, why?

Because he doesn't look like those other guys on them dollar bills?

If Hussein loses it is going to be because the Jesus freaks and the Racists are not intelligent enough, educated enough, to vote for something that is an Obomination in our eyes.

He is a Marxist.
What the **** are you talking about? I asked Programmer what he doesnt like about his candidate? I was saying its obvious why he wont vote for Obama. Thats becasue Programmer himself has made it clear for quite sometime now why he wont. So where the **** do you get off?

Calcountry
09-19-2008, 04:14 PM
What the **** are you talking about? I asked Programmer what he doesnt like about his candidate? I was saying its obvious why he wont vote for Obama. Thats becasue Programmer himself has made it clear for quite sometime now why he wont. So where the **** do you get off?Wouldn't you like to know.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:15 PM
ROFL... talk about not reading the thread. Its ok, tom. Your and idiot.

You are grammatically ignorant, but that's OK. You are just supporting your butty diddy. I realize he won't marry you if you don't.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:17 PM
You are grammatically ignorant, but that's OK. You are just supporting your butty diddy. I realize he won't marry you if you don't.
ROFL ... Anyone care to enlighten Tom as to the use of the phrase "Your and idiot" on Chiefsplanet? I really think it's funnier if we don't.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:18 PM
Hamas claims that I'm dishonest with my initial response.

I am sure that his intent was anything but searching for the truth, but if he wants to believe that way it's fine with me.

Look at the direction this thread has gone.

I don't think I mad it stray all by myself, there were others involved and some that are hell bent to change the content directly to something about them.

BigCatDaddy
09-19-2008, 04:18 PM
I was going to respond to the thread starter but after reading the thread I changed my mind.

This thread could use a do-over.

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 04:20 PM
I think both are unrealistic to be honest. Taxes are fine we just need to have some integrity brought back into politics. California has the 5th largest economy in the world and we cannot pass a balanced budget in spite of everything we have out here and Ahhhnold has tried to do. Tax and send is all the Dems know out here. Unlike most people on here I don't think this is a partisan problem, I think it's a corruption problem that not only has infiltrated both parties but is so prevelant it is hard to find anyone with any integrity anymore. With absolute power has come absolute corruption.

The problem now has become what direction do we take to get out of here. The politicians play us on our hot button issues and all of us are guilty of playing into that, me included. I want to see a leader that is going to give me more options as a citizen. I want to see a leader that is going to support performance only as a basis for progress so we only end up with the most talented leaders and I want to see an end to this never ending spending. I beleive that McCain is lesser of the two evils when it comes to that but I also believe he is a big government guy he pretends not to be.

I gotta tell you I hate this election, I really do.

Great point BD I am sure glad someone pointed that out.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 04:23 PM
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when political wonks can't even elucidate the stances that they are dissatisfied their own candidate takes.

And you wonder why people bicker over things like "partisan rancor".

Yes, this is a giant trap which is precisely why I said all of those things that I don't like about Obama. To trap you.

"What you do is not honest. What you do is partisan hackery."

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:24 PM
ROFL ... Anyone care to enlighten Tom as to the use of the phrase "Your and idiot" on Chiefsplanet? I really think it's funnier if we don't.

Your use of a "lexicon" is not funny. It only shows your willingness to use an ignorant phrase when attempting to insult someone.

You may want to grow up a bit.:rolleyes:

Carlota69
09-19-2008, 04:24 PM
Wouldn't you like to know.

On your face? Is that the reason you couldn't really read my original post?

Carlota69
09-19-2008, 04:25 PM
This thread could use a do-over.

No doubt.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:25 PM
Your use of a "lexicon" is not funny. It only shows your willingness to use an ignorant phrase when attempting to insult someone.

You may want to grow up a bit.:rolleyes:
Hey, I'm not the one who can't comprehend the OP.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:25 PM
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when political wonks can't even elucidate the stances that they are dissatisfied their own candidate takes.

And you wonder why people bicker over things like "partisan rancor".

Yes, this is a giant trap which is precisely why I said all of those things that I don't like about Obama. To trap you.

"What you do is not honest. What you do is partisan hackery."

Did you read my response to Carlotta?

My guess is that you ignored it as you needed to make a statement and insult me. That's OK, but you are wrong.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 04:26 PM
Great point BD I am sure glad someone pointed that out.

LMAO

This thread had promise until programmer hijacked it.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:28 PM
Hey, I'm not the one who can't comprehend the OP.

I understood what you tried to say and I feel you are more stupid for trying to defend something that is just wrong.

You do need to attempt to grow up, but maybe that isn't something people in your generation want to do.

Using your "lexicons" will eventually bite you in the ass.

Keep attacking and insulting, it's OK with me as I don't give a shit about your opinion.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 04:28 PM
Did you read my response to Carlotta?

My guess is that you ignored it as you needed to make a statement and insult me. That's OK, but you are wrong.

That you didn't have time to write it out, yet spent the next hour on here arguing with JDiddy?

kill yourself.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:29 PM
LMAO

This thread had promise until programmer hijacked it.

dd, I posted my response, I replied to Carlotta that I would come up with a list of concerns. Your little friend diddy tended to mount the personal attacks and ruin the thread. I participated but was not the instigator.

BIG_DADDY
09-19-2008, 04:30 PM
That you didn't have time to write it out, yet spent the next hour on here arguing with JDiddy?

kill yourself.

There have been other people trying to address issues and you end up here telling somebody to kill themself? NICE

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 04:31 PM
There have been other people trying to address issues and you end up here telling somebody to kill themself? NICE

Great original reply, by the way....

I'm creating this thread as a way to actually gauge if some people on this thread have any synaptic power worth saving, or if the hive mind is so far beyond hope, that it is best to become the Don Rickles of DC and function as nothing but an insult poster.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:31 PM
I understood what you tried to say and I feel you are more stupid for trying to defend something that is just wrong.

Moral high horse over non-existent issue? Check.

You do need to attempt to grow up, but maybe that isn't something people in your generation want to do.
"I am older and therefore more mature than you," schtick? Check.

Using your "lexicons" will eventually bite you in the ass.

Superiority Complex? Check.

Keep attacking and insulting, it's OK with me as I don't give a shit about your opinion.

Victim Card? Check.

Gee, Tom. That was every tool in your arsenal of trollery and dumbassery. What are you going to throw out next?

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:32 PM
That you didn't have time to write it out, yet spent the next hour on here arguing with JDiddy?

kill yourself.

I have started a response, but your comments seem to make it unimportant.

I think it best if you kill yourself instead.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 04:34 PM
dd, I posted my response, I replied to Carlotta that I would come up with a list of concerns. Your little friend diddy tended to mount the personal attacks and ruin the thread. I participated but was not the instigator.

Fair enough

You and Diddy need to get a room and hug it out

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:34 PM
yada yada yada

whine whine whine



Dude, take a chill pill and then go stand in the corner.

Your rants are getting old.

Just to refresh your memory, how many posts of mine have you responded to without personally attacking? NONE. Well gee, what kind of response do you expect when you start out being an ass?

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:36 PM
Fair enough

You and Diddy need to get a room and hug it out

Not going to happen. One of us is an old stubborned son of a bitch and the other is an immature asshole.

To clarify, I'm old, stubborned and have been called a son of a bitch many times here.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:37 PM
Diddy, you are on your own.

I'm not responding to your little game of attack.

Hope you find a life this weekend.
Hey that's clever


:thumb:

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:37 PM
Not going to happen. One of us is an old stubborned son of a bitch and the other is an immature asshole.

To clarify, I'm old, stubborned and have been called a son of a bitch many times here.

and yet you wear it like a badge of honor............

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:38 PM
Dude, take a chill pill and then go stand in the corner.

Your rants are getting old.

Just to refresh your memory, how many posts of mine have you responded to without personally attacking? NONE. Well gee, what kind of response do you expect when you start out being an ass?

ROFL You may want to look up the definition of rant. Especially after deciding to call me out on my "grammar" and use of lexicons.

As for the response type your posts warrant: Maybe that is a testament to your post quality. In fact, I think many here would testify to the fact that I am an issues based poster and that you are the very definition of a "partisan hack."

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:39 PM
You are still squirming in your own vomit I see.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:40 PM
You are still squirming in your own vomit I see.
Uh-oh! Tom is running out of tools! How long before he actually leaves the thread? 15-20 minutes is my guess.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:40 PM
............
You are still squirming in your own vomit I see.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:41 PM
Uh-oh! Tom is running out of tools! How long before he actually leaves the thread? 15-20 minutes is my guess.

Only because we are leaving town tonight. But don't let that stop you from your continued rants about me. Don't want you to fall short in your asshole point count.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:42 PM
Only because we are leaving town tonight. But don't let that stop you from your continued rants about me. Don't want you to fall short in your asshole point count.

Still haven't looked up the definition of rant, I see. As for the asshole comment: Hey, at least I'm not in denial about my state of being.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:42 PM
As for the response type your posts warrant: Maybe that is a testament to your post quality. In fact, I think many here would testify to the fact that I am an issues based poster and that you are the very definition of a "partisan hack."

Your posts here surely support that comment. :rolleyes:


Your quality issues based comments seem to be lost here.

You are a hack just as I said.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Only because we are leaving town tonight. But don't let that stop you from your continued rants about me. Don't want you to fall short in your asshole point count.

asshole point count?


what's that a gay game you and your man toy play?

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Your posts here surely support that comment. :rolleyes:


Your quality issues based comments seem to be lost here.

You are a hack just as I said.


blah blah blah

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Still haven't looked up the definition of rant, I see. As for the asshole comment: Hey, at least I'm not in denial about my state of being.

It's all about you eh?

That comment was directed at your butty diddy.

Not so smart er' ya.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:44 PM
Your posts here surely support that comment. :rolleyes:


Your quality issues based comments seem to be lost here.

You are a hack just as I said.
Hard to be an "independent hack," I'd say. But don't let details get in the way of your general (mis)characterizations.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:44 PM
?

Again you are all out on the attack.

I'm sure you are justified .... :rolleyes:

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:44 PM
It's all about you eh?

That comment was directed at your butty diddy.

Not so smart er' ya.


so when you suck the dick do you cuff the balls or do you let them just hang there

I see you as the spiteful bastard who would just let them hang

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:45 PM
It's all about you eh?

That comment was directed at your butty diddy.

Not so smart er' ya.

You are grammatically (wait was it incompetent or ignorant.. ah shit, I'll guess) ignorant!

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:45 PM
Hard to be an "independent hack," I'd say. But don't let details get in the way of your general (mis)characterizations.

You are no more independent that Obama.

How can I mischaracterize you? You have no character.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:45 PM
Again you are all out on the attack.

I'm sure you are justified .... :rolleyes:

when your man is giving it to up the butt without lube does he tell you he's doing it because you've been naughty or he's doing it because he loves you

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:46 PM
so

Continue by all means, just shows your real agenda here.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:46 PM
You are no more independent that Obama.

How can I mischaracterize you? You have no character.

Do you comb all the schools for potential lovers or is it just the elementary schools.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:46 PM
You are grammatically (wait was it incompetent or ignorant.. ah shit, I'll guess) ignorant!

Hello Pot.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Continue by all means, just shows your real agenda here.

When you tell your man to stop, does he or does he just ram harder?

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:47 PM
You are no more independent that Obama.

How can I mischaracterize you? You have no character.

ROFL ... Yes, I am a pinko commie bastard. Just look at my history on the issues. Oh wait. Tom obviously doesn't look at issues posts or he wouldn't be suggesting that I am liberal.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:47 PM
Do you comb all the schools for potential lovers or is it just the elementary schools.

Can't even stay within your own set of attacks?

Standard case when someone is so pissed off the can't read.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:48 PM
Hello Pot.


Hello moron. What's the matter, can't handle the fact that I called you out, first on your (false) claim and then on your hypocrisy? It's ok, suicide is the easy answer.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:48 PM
... Yes, I am a pinko commie bastard. Just look at my history on the issues. Oh wait. Tom obviously doesn't look at issues posts or he wouldn't be suggesting that I am liberal.



Dude, you have totally missed the basic point of view.

I don't give a shit about you, your position on politics or whether you post or not.

You are an asshole, that's all I need to know about you.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 04:49 PM
Hello moron. What's the matter, can't handle the fact that I called you out, first on your (false) claim and then on your hypocrisy? It's ok, suicide is the easy answer.

Name calling and attacking is a liberal trait.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:49 PM
Dude, you have totally missed the basic point of view.

I don't give a shit about you, your position on politics or whether you post or not.

You are an asshole, that's all I need to know about you.
And thus, I am a liberal. Which brings us full circle to why Tom can't respond to the OP.

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:50 PM
Name calling and attacking is a liberal trait.

ROFL...

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:50 PM
Can't even stay within your own set of attacks?

Standard case when someone is so pissed off the can't read.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

Is your boyfriend upset that you have an "innie" and not an "outie"

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:50 PM
Dude, you have totally missed the basic point of view.

I don't give a shit about you, your position on politics or whether you post or not.

You are an asshole, that's all I need to know about you.

which means you should run like hell because we all know tom loves the asshole

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 04:51 PM
And thus, I am a liberal. Which brings us full circle to why Tom can't respond to the OP.


tom can't respond cause he's jerking someone while another is plugging him in the buttocks

Nightfyre
09-19-2008, 04:56 PM
Damn, I appear to have been off in my estimate. It was only 6 minutes; not 15-20. :shake:

Baby Lee
09-19-2008, 05:10 PM
I find it curious that people would vote for McCain just because he is not someone else. They defend him like he's the second coming, but when asked to label his virtues they cannot. Makes one wonder why they tout him so, when it seems his only qualifying attribute is that he's not Obama.

This thread isn't soliting the virtues of any candidate.

If I were to do what the thread header asked, I'd have to say;

Guiliani, ran a shitty campaign unprepared for how nasty Dems would be when fearing a reasonable and effective Republican more the more unreasonable or unqualified ones.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 05:14 PM
This thread isn't soliting the virtues of any candidate.

If I were to do what the thread header asked, I'd have to say;

Guiliani, ran a shitty campaign unprepared for how nasty Dems would be when fearing a reasonable and effective Republican more the more unreasonable or unqualified ones.

Do you plan to vote for McCain? If so, list your misgivings/philosophical differences in the other thread I started, provided you have time. Even if it's not McCain--some 3rd party. It would still be interesting to see people actually articulate where they diverge on policy.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 05:16 PM
This thread isn't soliting the virtues of any candidate.

If I were to do what the thread header asked, I'd have to say;

Guiliani, ran a shitty campaign unprepared for how nasty Dems would be when fearing a reasonable and effective Republican more the more unreasonable or unqualified ones.

Do you really think the Dems had that much of an influence over the Republican Primary?

penchief
09-19-2008, 05:26 PM
2. The man hates for us to have guns period.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

You and KCJohnny need to hook up for a couple of beers.

Baby Lee
09-19-2008, 05:36 PM
Do you really think the Dems had that much of an influence over the Republican Primary?

Not in their voting, but in their full court press of get the message out that Guiliani was pretty much the worst person on the face of the earth.
I can't remember if it was him having gay friends, or being pro-choice, or being a divorcee that angered them the most.

penchief
09-19-2008, 05:51 PM
1. FISA. This probably tops the list for me. Privacy is not only essential in a democracy but I believe it is a fundamental right of human existence. I felt betrayed when he went along with the new bill.

2. Big Money. I'm convinced that an Obama Administration will not be Cheneyburton revisited but I'm still not convinced that he's prepared to clean house in the way that will be necessary for us to take our country back from the business crooks and war profiteers who have hijacked it.

3. Iraq/Pakistan/Iran/Israel. While I'm sure that he will be much more effective diplomatically, based on his previous comments I'm not really sure that there's going to be much change in the big picture when it comes to our involvement in the Middle East.

4. Immigration. I'm not for building a wall but I'm definitely for improving our border security, cracking down on illegal immigration, and rounding up those who are here illegally and making a case by case determination on whether to provide them a path to citizenship or deport them immediately.

5. Sometimes I think he's willing to give up too much in order to reach a compromise and that worries me a little. Compromising on FISA really disappointed me even though I understand why he did it (pre-emptive strike against the soft on terrorism charge). And compromising on offshore drilling seemed unnecessary considering how the "drill now" myth had pretty much been debunked. Both instances made me feel like he was willing to compromise too soon or give up too much.

Logical
09-19-2008, 06:02 PM
I support Barack Obama.

1) He is not playing any card like McCain is playing the POW card, the last thing I want is a President who uses an issue like having been a POW as an excuse for every mistake. On the other hand Obama needs to be more aggressive when he deals with issues, a lack of passion is my biggest criticism of Obama (though McCain is worse)

2) I really am at most lukewarm about Obama, but he is not Sarah Palin who has a 1 in 3 shot of becoming President which is an abhorrent thought.

3) Gay Marriage--I wish that he would have taken a more liberal line on this. I understand that he supports civil unions, but I do feel that this is somewhat of a political cop out. You can't say that marriage is a church institution when it has to be recognized by the state in order for it to be valid.(agree completely with HJ)

4) FISA--I still don't understand why he flipped on this issue. The last thing that we need is to give the government even more authority of surveying our everyday lives. The government works for the people and should not remove the individual's autonomy to conduct him/herself without a court order (agree completely with HJ)

5) Israel--The United States government gives more aid to Israel than any other country. We sell huge amounts of arms to them, and have privately engineered their entire nuclear program. They act as an antagonist in the region just as much as they are picked on, and our continued meddling in their affairs has led directly the many of the problems we face in the Muslim world. Obama is not clear on his position on Israel that in my opinion is a shortcoming.

6) Continued support of the military-industrial complex--one of the biggest problems of our current budget crisis is the fact that we continually spend billions of dollars acquiring new weapons systems so that we can have the best of the best in every aspect of military hardware. IMO it is critical we cutback on spending on the Military. We need to forget the F-35 and JSF and instead just maintain the F-14s, F-15s, and F-16 instead of retiring them. Then we increase support of our veterans. I disagree with HJ there is a need to spend money on IR&D and weapons development, but for weapons that bring massive unmanned advantage.

7) Christianity--I think that Obama wraps too much of his personal rhetoric in Christianity at times. It is nowhere near as copious as George W. Bush, but it is still too much for my personal liking. I respect that he is a man of faith, but I don't feel it necessary for him to mention it as often as he does.(agree completely with HJ)

8) Taxes, I agree revenues needs to be increased, not redistributed. I believe we do that by getting rid of the personal income tax and the IRS and replacing it with some sort of national sales tax along with a big implementation of import taxes on key industries.

9) Big Government, we must starting reducing the size of our national bureaucracy trimming the wasteful unneeded branches and boosting the branches that deal with our cracking infrastructure. Obama fails IMO to address this and will be increasing the size with an agency to manage National Healthcare.

10) Natonal Health Insurance, Barack actually has a pretty good plan but needs to better explain how the implementation will work the biggest problem, reducing the cost of our healthcare provisioning.

Logical
09-19-2008, 06:21 PM
ROFL You may want to look up the definition of rant. Especially after deciding to call me out on my "grammar" and use of lexicons.

As for the response type your posts warrant: Maybe that is a testament to your post quality. In fact, I think many here would testify to the fact that I am an issues based poster and that you are the very definition of a "partisan hack."I don't support Obama because you clearly are not a partisan hack, what is wrong with you.;)

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 06:25 PM
So much for the Official Critical Thinking Thread.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 06:29 PM
So far, the most substantive answers from the other side of the aisle are BigCatDaddy's and the fact that Democrats are hypocrites and undermined 91u1iani's campaign.

Baby Lee
09-19-2008, 06:34 PM
Why can't you be honest? I did and so did Hamas. Is it so hard to find things right or wrong with the candidate you support and talk about them?

Though Omcashtay's doucheness is nearly as solidy established as the strong nuclear force, he did have an initial point.

Sure you and Hamas were honest, with the exception your admission that you're a 'immigration right wing-nut' both of your critiques were of the nature 'I like this liberal, but he occasionally still appears to be too conservative for my ideal candidate.'

That's only going to draw out the most extreme of the RW, or people who have cult of personality gripes with McCain, of which I'm probably one [the latter, folks, calm down], which taken in concert with the fact that he's not 'my' candidate, is why I'm staying mum. That, and the fact that I've ALREADY dribbled out over time quite a compendium of critiques of McCain and don't feel like assembling a Concordance for everyone right now. ;)

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 06:38 PM
Though Omcashtay's doucheness is nearly as solidy established as the strong nuclear force, he did have an initial point.

Sure you and Hamas were honest, with the exception your admission that you're a 'immigration right wing-nut' both of your critiques were of the nature 'I like this liberal, but he occasionally still appears to be too conservative for my ideal candidate.'

That's only going to draw out the most extreme of the RW, or people who have cult of personality gripes with McCain, of which I'm probably one [the latter, folks, calm down], which taken in concert with the fact that he's not 'my' candidate, is why I'm staying mum.

I don't understand why people are so afraid of having an intellectually honest conversation. Why is it bad to list the shortcomings of a particular candidate? It's not a "gotcha" moment, it's meant to actually analyze where you are at vis-a-vis their positions rather than just defending them because of the letter between the ().

This forum is far too high-school cliquey. The thread was meant to see how people are able to come to a dialectical decision for their preferred candidate, instead of constantly shouting out talking point and toeing party lines.

RJ
09-19-2008, 06:55 PM
I have misgivings about Obama and his views on Iran and the ME in general. I think when he says "no preconditions" that he's being too trusting. Those are some f***ed up people in charge over there, too unpredictable to not keep a leash on them. Also, as the lone superpower in the world, we have an obligation to keep guys like Ahmadinanutjob in check.

I'm not a gun owner but I can see how gun owners would have issues with Obama. He has an understandably urban mentality toward firearms that doesn't play well with a lot of America and I can see their point.

Since he's already agreed to limited off shore drilling, I wish he'd just come all the way around and embrace it. I don't think it will help much but it might help a little and I doubt it will hurt. Right now it comes across like he's agreeing to just enough drilling to score political points.

And I wish he wasn't a Muslim.

Logical
09-19-2008, 09:21 PM
Did any of the conservatives short of Baby Lee even make a serious effort?

Programmer
09-19-2008, 09:32 PM
Did any of the conservatives short of Baby Lee even make a serious effort?

Did you make an honest effort? Then why do you care about anyone else?

Logical
09-19-2008, 09:37 PM
Did you make an honest effort? Then why do you care about anyone else?

Post 138, I will make it easy on you.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5035612&postcount=138

RJ
09-19-2008, 09:43 PM
Post 138, I will make it easy on you.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5035612&postcount=138


Heh, that's pretty funny.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 09:48 PM
Post 138, I will make it easy on you.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5035612&postcount=138

Didn't get the meaning of the post? Who cares who has made an honest effort? Seems only you.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 09:49 PM
Heh, that's pretty funny.

Your comment is funny in a distrubing kind of way. But I expect nothing more from you.

Mecca
09-19-2008, 09:52 PM
I don't support Obama because:

1. He will have to seriously raise taxes to push through what he proposes especially after this huge bailout.

2. He spent 8 years on the board of the Joyce Foundation spending millions trying to eliminate all civilian ownership of firearms. The man hates for us to have guns period.

3. He is for the mandatory full schedule vaccination of all citizens. THey can stick anything in you and you won't have a choice.

4. He is for legalizing discrimination against whitey. AA

5. His mentor of 20 years says "GOD DAMN AMERICA" and all his homeboys he's been hanging with go crazy in support of the message.

6. There needs to be a balance of power and the Dems would have WAY too much at this point.

Those are the big 6, I will just leave it at that.

I'm only responding to this because the 2nd one made me laugh....

The Dems have pretty much given up the gun battle. Obama's record has gun control on it because he's from mother****ing Chicago, where 20 people can die in a two block radius over a weekend in the west side of town, and violent crime far surpasses property crime which bucks the trend anywhere in the nation. Basically, if you want to have your life taken by gunfire, the streets of that city is the most likely place to make it happen.

Logical
09-19-2008, 10:04 PM
I'm only responding to this because the 2nd one made me laugh....

The Dems have pretty much given up the gun battle. Obama's record has gun control on it because he's from mother****ing Chicago, where 20 people can die in a two block radius over a weekend in the west side of town, and violent crime far surpasses property crime which bucks the trend anywhere in the nation. Basically, if you want to have your life taken by gunfire, the streets of that city is the most likely place to make it happen.

You realize there is a reason they are called gun nuts, right?

Mecca
09-19-2008, 10:06 PM
You realize there is a reason they are called gun nuts, right?

After reading alot of his posts I'll just stick to plain and simple nut.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 10:10 PM
After reading alot of his posts I'll just stick to plain and simple nut.

He's easy to figure out

guns kill people-good
pitbulls kill people-good
vaccines save peoples lives-bad

Logical
09-19-2008, 10:20 PM
He's easy to figure out

guns kill people-good
pitbulls kill people-good
vaccines save peoples lives-badWhen you meet him he is a great guy. But his positions on those issues would make you think that he grew up in the backwater. Not the case.:spock:

NewChief
09-19-2008, 11:01 PM
Interesting thread idea. Did anyone ever actually follow the original premise? I got sick of reading all the BS and stopped paging through it after a while.

NewChief
09-19-2008, 11:08 PM
1) Obama might be too smart.

2) Obama might be too handsome.

3) Obama might be too capable and too good of a leader.



Okay, and now to somewhat seriously answer this question.

1) I do worry that Obama is sucked into the maelstrom of the DNC and will become just another typical Dem politician.

2) I'm fairly conservative on guns. I'm not worried about some sacking of the 2nd amendment under an Obama presidency, but I don't see exactly eye to eye with him on the issue, either.

3) The FISA pussout disgusted me and honestly worried me. It's the one that really bothers me more than anything else he's done.

4) I don't like all aspects of NCLB, but I think a lot of work has been done in education in the last 8 years. I would like to see reform of NCLB, not a complete scrapping of it. Obama doesn't necessarily say he's going to completely scrap NCLB, but I do worry that might be the case. I don't, honestly, think he'd be able to scrap it anyway, but it's a concern.

NewChief
09-19-2008, 11:16 PM
BTW, Hamas. You're asking people to think critically that, evidently, can't even read judging by their replies to the thread.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 11:18 PM
Interesting thread idea. Did anyone ever actually follow the original premise? I got sick of reading all the BS and stopped paging through it after a while.

Cronus, Dirk, BigCatDaddy...that's about it.

RJ
09-19-2008, 11:25 PM
Your comment is funny in a distrubing kind of way. But I expect nothing more from you.



You are a very strange person. But that's ok, you're probably harmless enough. I think.

RJ
09-19-2008, 11:29 PM
Cronus, Dirk, BigCatDaddy...that's about it.


I gave it my best shot.

J Diddy
09-19-2008, 11:30 PM
Cronus, Dirk, BigCatDaddy...that's about it.

uh, yeah

my bad:(

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:45 PM
Cronus, Dirk, BigCatDaddy...that's about it.

:(

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-19-2008, 11:54 PM
:(

Forgot about you.

I'm still astounded that only one conservative could actually muster up a post that even somewhat criticized McCain. I guess the mantra about falling in line was true.

irishjayhawk
09-19-2008, 11:57 PM
Forgot about you.

I'm still astounded that only one conservative could actually muster up a post that even somewhat criticized McCain. I guess the mantra about falling in line was true.

I'm more interested in Kotter doing one post about the cons of Obama and the cons of McCain since he claims to be an Obama leaner but really, I think, could go McCain.

Programmer
09-20-2008, 07:54 AM
You are a very strange person. But that's ok, you're probably harmless enough. I think.

You would be wrong on both counts and the last comment is a lie.

penchief
09-20-2008, 10:08 AM
Forgot about you.

I'm still astounded that only one conservative could actually muster up a post that even somewhat criticized McCain. I guess the mantra about falling in line was true.

Dude, you forgot me, too.

patteeu
09-20-2008, 10:22 AM
• Israel--The United States government gives more aid to Israel than any other country. We sell huge amounts of arms to them, and have privately engineered their entire nuclear program. They act as an antagonist in the region just as much as they are picked on, and our continued meddling in their affairs has led directly the many of the problems we face in the Muslim world. Despite this, both candidates feel compelled to continually support a terrorist state.

You're the second person in the last couple of days who has casually stated this as fact. On what basis?

RJ
09-20-2008, 10:38 AM
You would be wrong on both counts and the last comment is a lie.


What's that mean exactly, Tom?

Programmer
09-20-2008, 10:45 AM
What's that mean exactly, Tom?

What ever you want it to mean. Decide for yourself.

patteeu
09-20-2008, 10:46 AM
As for the guy I'll be voting for, here are some of the things I don't like about McCain:

1. He's ready to launch a big government program to combat global warming.

2. He misrepresented Mitt Romney on several occasions during the primaries. He's done the same on a much more trivial basis to Obama.

3. I don't fully trust him to nominate conservative SCOTUS justices. I suspect that he'll use those nomination opportunities to reach out to liberals by nominating middle of the road types who almost always end up being activists when they get on the court. Don't get me wrong, these nominations will be clearly better than Obama's, but they won't be entirely satisfactory from my pov.

4. I resent the hard line he took against the administration's interrogation decisions. He could have opposed the administration without feeding some of the less responsible critics and giving them cover to become even more outrageous in their claims of rampant torture.

5. He married into a questionable family, IMO. Not as questionable as Obama's, of course, but questionable nonetheless.

6. I didn't like his grandstanding against Big Tobacco and his support of the shakedown of same by several state's attorneys general on the basis of health care costs. Note that he hasn't taken any similar stands against alcohol for the health issues related to drinking.

7. IIRC, he was in favor of attacking microsoft on an anti-trust basis back in the 90's.

RJ
09-20-2008, 10:51 AM
What ever you want it to mean. Decide for yourself.



Yeah, I already did.

patteeu
09-20-2008, 10:52 AM
I find it curious that people would vote for McCain just because he is not someone else. They defend him like he's the second coming, but when asked to label his virtues they cannot. Makes one wonder why they tout him so, when it seems his only qualifying attribute is that he's not Obama.

It's not just that he's "not Obama", it's that he's better than Obama. That's such a low threshold though that it's not the same as saying "he's awesome". The one word that describes the McCain candidacy best, from my pov, is "Better".

patteeu
09-20-2008, 10:54 AM
So nobody is defending McCain?

Like he's the 2nd coming? No.

patteeu
09-20-2008, 10:58 AM
I beleive that McCain is lesser of the two evils when it comes to that but I also believe he is a big government guy he pretends not to be.

Agree.

patteeu
09-20-2008, 11:03 AM
LMAO

This thread had promise until programmer hijacked it.

It takes at least 2 to really hijack a thread. When programmer is involved, there are usually quite a few more than that involved. Why not just ignore?

patteeu
09-20-2008, 11:16 AM
I'm more interested in Kotter doing one post about the cons of Obama and the cons of McCain since he claims to be an Obama leaner but really, I think, could go McCain.

If Kotter ends up voting for McCain, all my hard work in this forum will have been worth it. My sole goal here is to swing him to McCain. If he votes for Obama, my vote will be canceled. If he votes for McCain, it will increase our combined voting power to +2 for McCain. That will be an infinite increase in percentage terms!

Programmer
09-20-2008, 11:48 AM
Yeah, I already did.

Good, then you tell me what you think it meant.

I would bet you are as far off the mark as anyone could ever be.

since you are not responding:

(1)You are a very strange person. But that's ok, (2)you're probably harmless enough. (3)I think.

You would be wrong on both counts (1 & 2) and the last comment (3) is a lie.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 03:27 PM
Okay, Hamas…good idea for a thread. I almost blew it off, as only a handful here will probably bother to read it, or care….but in the spirit that you intended….

If McCain had stuck to his historically fiscal conservatism of the past, done less pandering on taxes, been less rigid and unnecessarily belligerent on Iraq, and maintained his “straight-talk” integrity instead of allowing his handlers to engage in the same old politics of the past, I would have a much harder time supporting Obama because of what I consider Obama’s strong liberal ideological bent.

As a reluctant Obama supporter, he reminds me too much of Bill Clinton to not be leary. Barrack is a bright, articulate, and gifted politician who says the right things most of the time. The question is does he really mean them? I suspect on a personal level that he does: but in the White House, will he walk the walk….of moderation, of reaching across the isle, of working for average and middle class Americans—instead of lobbyists and the elite who will have helped him to win this election? I think we are going to find out.

FWIW, I’ve always liked McCain’s more moderate approach to conservatism and his maverick image of the past. While I reject the notion that he would be a third term for Bush, I do think that he would continue many of the policies of Bush years….at a time when current circumstances clearly suggest that we need to move in a different direction on a number of fronts.

IMHO, Obama seems to possess a sense of vision and strong leadership qualities. I value McCain’s experience, but this is a time in history that vision and leadership are needed more. I think Obama will surround himself with people who are, first and foremost, qualified on merits rather than partisan loyalty or ideology. If he does that, I trust that he will be more likely (than McCain) to do what’s “right” for the country for the times we are living in, as opposed to simply defaulting to his liberal ideological orientation. So, what’s “right” for the country?

Here’s my take, in brief (followed by subsequent posts with more explanation of my support: )

I agree with Obama on:
- Iraq (it’s now time to come home)
- Taxes/Deficit/Debt (After Bush, I no longer trust Republican rhetoric on the issue)
- Healthcare (We gotta do something to fix it…with McCain nothing gets done)
- Energy (more focused on long-term, rather than quick fix solutions)
- Immigration (though his position isn’t much different from McCain’s, really)

Concerns I have:
- National Security/Foreign Policy
- Supreme Court Justices
- Continued/Accelerated Growth of National Government

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 03:28 PM
I support Obama on Iraq. Although I think he did misjudge the “surge,” it is politically difficult for him to admit that; so I understand why he’s been stubborn about it. I’ve consistently supported the troops and the “surge” over the last 4-5 years, but the time has come….for us to make a graceful exit. Leaving will force the Iraqis to step up. If the Iraqis fail to step up and a civil war ensues at this point, we can’t blamed for it IMHO. We’ve done the responsible thing, by trying diligently to create a stable government …. we’ve done our part. We can now make a honorable exit. Under Obama, that’s more likely to happen sooner than it would under McCain.

On taxes, Obama has it closer to “right” IMHO. I worry some about the impact of his tax hikes on small businesses, but overall the top 2-3% of income earners have been getting too much for too long IMHO. If there are going to be tax cuts, it needs to be lower income Americans (I know, I know….they don’t pay “federal” taxes; but they do pay a disproportionate share of overall taxes, relative to their income…compared to the top wage earners. I’m not a huge fan of it, but the progressive income tax system has a place….as long as rates do not become punitive.)

Healthcare is a big issue for me. The current system is broken. I oppose a single-payer system of socialized medicine, but the industry has demonstrated contempt for consumers by their failure to embrace meaningful reforms.....and thus it appears, they will have to be coerced (like the business monopolies and meat packing plants from the early 1900s, for example.) Obama’s plan seems pretty sensible. I suspect whatever bill Congress passes, if and when they do, will be some sort of a compromise measure. Hopefully, more people will be insured; and with any luck maybe health care costs can be reined in some, from the 2-3 times the rate of inflation levels of the last 20-25 years. In any event, nothing would change with a McCain presidency on this front, IMHO. And I consider that, unacceptable.

On energy, I understand the appeal of “drill now” and opening up more areas to drilling….but those are short-term answers. Yes, we should do them, but we should focus on weening ourselves from fossil fuels—if for no other reason, than being able to tell oil-producing countries we import from to fugg themselves when we need to. I think Obama’s energy plans and policies will do more to move us toward long-term answers, than McCain’s would. Unfortunately, neither party has done anything except talk about the issue for the last 30 years. That has to change. Emphasis and investment in development of alternative and renewable energy sources will receive a higher priority in an Obama administration. I hope he’s more aggressive than I expect with development of safe nuclear power options.

On immigration, with McCain and Obama….I’d expect it to be a wash. The specifics of immigration will be pounded out by Congress, and given the American people’s performance during the last debate on immigration….I trust that Congress will tread very carefully, deferring to the people on this potentially explosive issue. What’s that mean? It means improved border security, better enforcement of existing law, and a reasonable but rigorous “pathway” to citizenship. Otherwise, the 2010 elections could get really ugly. Like with Healthcare the devil will be in the details, which largely….will have to come from some significant compromises on the issue.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 03:29 PM
There are a couple of areas I’m concerned about with an Obama Presidency: will his national security and foreign policy actions keep the nation safe and secure. I understand wanting to re-establish a closer and more positive relationship with some other countries, fine; I hope it doesn’t come at the expense of our safety. Say what you want about Bush and the last 8 years, but one has to acknowledge we’ve remained “safer” than many expected in the aftermath of 9/11. I know Bush and the Patriot I and II Acts that many of you find so offensive don’t deserve all the credit….and perhaps we’ve just been lucky, but you watch what happens if, God forbid, an event comparable to 9/11 happens during the next few years. Fair or not, both sides of the isle will be looking back at the W’s years a lot differently than many folks are right now.

Another area of concern for is Supreme Court justices. I’d love to see Stevens and Ginsburg replaced by more conservative/strict constructionist types; but the current configuration of the court, as is, I can live with. The thing that would really bum me out is if Kennedy or Scalia end up unexpectedly leaving the court, and Obama replaces them with Hillary or Bill or some similar liberal ideologue. Then, I’d worry about the new direction of the court. Suffice it to say, that I’ll be hoping that nothing bad happens to the 4 conservatives, and even Kennedy. A turn back toward Sodom and Gomorrah would be unfortunate, IMHO.

Finally, as for the size of the federal government, it appears that there is little difference between the two parties, despite Republican rhetoric. Both seem addicted to a bloated and excessive federal bureaucracy that is slowly creeping from a welfare state toward a more and more socialistic orientation. Maybe it was inevitable. It’s really no one’s fault but our own, as we keep electing the same bastards to keep giving us more and more of what we say we don’t want---but, clearly, we just keep lying about that.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 03:30 PM
As for second and third tier issues, issues….I'm of the opinion that Congress and the President, regardless of who it is, is unlikely to do anything significant (right or wrong) on most of those issues. One thing I’d like to see is a more reasonable, and adjusted approach to Educational Reform. I won’t hold my breath, because I’m not sure there is much that CAN be done on a national level. Meaningful education reform needs to occur at the state and local level. We'd be best served if the feds acted as a watchdog, exercising some important areas of oversight....but outside of that, leaving states to tend to their schools themselves.

Regarding other issues abortion, stem cells, gun control, campaign finance reform, tort reform, gay rights, and affirmative action, I’m pretty confident the status quo, more or less, will be maintained. I can live with that, for the most part. Sure, some I have opinions on, but I just don’t see a huge reason at this point to get too excited about any of them—at least not from my perspective. I think it’s more likely the Dems (if they keep Congress and gain the White House) will try to do something stupid like resurrect the “Fairness Doctrine,” or take Obama’s heathcare proposal and make it Socialized Medicine, or actually try to enact a genuine "cut-and-run" policy in Iraq…or something similarly silly-assed. If they do, I’ll rejoin my conservative bretheren on their side of the isle for those issues.

MahiMike
09-20-2008, 03:36 PM
I support Ron Paul. My critique at this point would be:
1) He has an overly simplistic view of the free-market.
Despite what he says, you do require a safe and secure marketplace. In particular, you need SOMEONE to prevent insider trading and collusion. Otherwise you have a market that is not free, but is a despotism whereby colluding parties can kill companies at a whim and at a hefty profit. This is constitutional in the respect that congress has the power to legislate interstate commerce.

Too bad he quit. Why didn't he just go independent?

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 03:41 PM
Too bad he quit. Why didn't he just go independent?


Because he had Zero chance of getting elected, maybe? :shrug:

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Too bad he quit. Why didn't he just go independent?


Heh. They just flashed a hypothetical poll, including Paul....on CNBC:

Paul polled at less than 1%.....so, there you go. ;)

RJ
09-20-2008, 07:25 PM
Hey Kotter, those were good posts, I enjoyed reading them. Didn't agree with all of it, but it was all well stated.

Programmer
09-20-2008, 08:07 PM
weekly neg rep for yet another *****tard post

Mr. Christian strikes again!

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-20-2008, 08:19 PM
Mr. Christian strikes again!

Wwwwiiffff I could turn back tiiiIIIme/
I'd give your MOTHHHER THISSS!!

http://www.themagazine.info/56/Pictures/Briner%20inc/HangerChromeThree.jpg

Programmer
09-20-2008, 08:44 PM
Wwwwiiffff I could turn back tiiiIIIme/
I'd give your MOTHHHER THISSS!!




If you could turn back time to that date you'd be a monkeys ass.

Programmer
09-20-2008, 08:45 PM
Mr. Christian strikes again.

whining about neg rep always nets you more neg rep.

Who's whining? If anyone is whining it is you, and you don't even have the balls to post your whines on the board.

I'm just pointing out that you are a hypocrite and an asshole. Probably more, but I don't want to make you feel like you are effective.

You are just a miserable little boy.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 08:52 PM
Hey Kotter, those were good posts, I enjoyed reading them. Didn't agree with all of it, but it was all well stated.

Thanks. I know some will disagree. That's okay. I also know us mushy-middle/fence-rider types take some heat from more ideological types. That's okay too; I can live with it. We just don't get much credit, or as much as I think we deserve.

I try to think things through based on the reality of the country and life as it is, not as we wish it to be...I prefer pragmatism over rigid ideological perspectives which are, often, too confining IMHO to address contemporary issues.

Logical
09-20-2008, 09:00 PM
Wwwwiiffff I could turn back tiiiIIIme/
I'd give your MOTHHHER THISSS!!

http://www.themagazine.info/56/Pictures/Briner%20inc/HangerChromeThree.jpgROFL

Programmer
09-20-2008, 09:03 PM
ROFL

Jim shows his true colors. Plus he has a permanent brown ring around his neck.

And for the record, if my mother ever saw someone like hamassole coming she would have shot him.

ClevelandBronco
09-20-2008, 09:03 PM
Here goes.

I support John McCain.

Although I support John McCain, I have a variety of problems with some of his platforms and previous issue stances. I will henceforth address these:

• Gay Marriage--I wish that he would have taken a more liberal line on this. I understand that he supports civil unions, but I do feel that this is somewhat of a political cop out. You can't say that marriage is a church institution when it has to be recognized by the state in order for it to be valid.

• FISA--I still don't understand why Sen. Obama flipped on this issue. The last thing that we need is to give the government even more authority of surveying our everyday lives. The government works for the people and should not remove the individual's autonomy to conduct him/herself without a court order

• Israel--(Sorry, Hamas, this one's a really good idea, IMO. Give them everything — everything — they ask for.)

• Continued support of the military-industrial complex-- Unless you think that President Obama is going to be suddenly granted a line item veto, Sen. Obama can wish for any fantasy that gets votes. We will continue to contract companies that make weapons of death and destruction. Thank goodness.

•Christianity--I think that Gov. Palin wraps too much her personal rhetoric in Christianity at times. It is nowhere near as copious as George W. Bush, or Sen Obama, but it is still too much for my personal liking. I respect that Sen. McCain is a man of faith, but I don't feel it necessary for him to send Gov. Palin out to hint at it as often as he does.

In spite of these qualms (some of them large), I will still vote for McCain, as I feel that he is the best of the candidates in this election, and will be able to deliver on policy that I find most important to me.

I hope that helps.

Logical
09-20-2008, 09:04 PM
There are a couple of areas I’m concerned about with an Obama Presidency: will his national security and foreign policy actions keep the nation safe and secure. I understand wanting to re-establish a closer and more positive relationship with some other countries, fine; I hope it doesn’t come at the expense of our safety. Say what you want about Bush and the last 8 years, but one has to acknowledge we’ve remained “safer” than many expected in the aftermath of 9/11. I know Bush and the Patriot I and II Acts that many of you find so offensive don’t deserve all the credit….and perhaps we’ve just been lucky, but you watch what happens if, God forbid, an event comparable to 9/11 happens during the next few years. Fair or not, both sides of the isle will be looking back at the W’s years a lot differently than many folks are right now.

Another area of concern for is Supreme Court justices. I’d love to see Stevens and Ginsburg replaced by more conservative/strict constructionist types; but the current configuration of the court, as is, I can live with. The thing that would really bum me out is if Kennedy or Scalia end up unexpectedly leaving the court, and Obama replaces them with Hillary or Bill or some similar liberal ideologue. Then, I’d worry about the new direction of the court. Suffice it to say, that I’ll be hoping that nothing bad happens to the 4 conservatives, and even Kennedy. A turn back toward Sodom and Gomorrah would be unfortunate, IMHO.
....I just want to point out that the average span between major terrorist efforts on our soil has been 10 years, so I would not assume Bush and the Patriot Acts I & II have been effective.

ClevelandBronco
09-20-2008, 09:08 PM
I just want to point out that the average span between major terrorist efforts on our soil has been 10 years, so I would not assume Bush and the Patriot Acts I & II have been effective.

That assumption has no basis in logic.

Ask some of your friends. They seem to be better at it.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 09:18 PM
I just want to point out that the average span between major terrorist efforts on our soil has been 10 years, so I would not assume Bush and the Patriot Acts I & II have been effective.

And that "trend" wasn't altered by 9/11 and subsequent terrorist activities world wide? :spock:

Whatever, Jim. :shake:

Logical
09-20-2008, 09:27 PM
And that "trend" wasn't altered by 9/11 and subsequent terrorist activities world wide? :spock:

Whatever, Jim. :shake:You obviously scanned my post. I said "on our soil".

Logical
09-20-2008, 09:27 PM
That assumption has no basis in logic.

Ask some of your friends. They seem to be better at it.If you say so.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 09:45 PM
You obviously scanned my post. I said "on our soil".

Makes no difference. You'd have to be delusional, IMHO, to think that things aren't "different" in the post 9/11 world (than before)--including the chance of a major attack, on our own soil.

Logical
09-20-2008, 09:50 PM
Makes no difference. You'd have to be delusional, IMHO, to think that things aren't "different" in the post 9/11 world (than before)--including the chance of a major attack, on our own soil.

I just think your proclamation that it has been a success to this point is premature. If we make it to 11 years I will consider it a success.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 10:29 PM
I just think your proclamation that it has been a success to this point is premature. If we make it to 11 years I will consider it a success.

Reread my statement, Jim; I'm willing to get them some credit....and recognize that it may have been more effective in keeping us safer than many believe. OTOH, we may have been fortunate, more than anything else. Direct cause and effect relationship, of course, is difficult to prove, but proactive and aggressive is better IMO....in this case. Franklin's sentiments aside in the 21st Century.

Logical
09-20-2008, 11:00 PM
Reread my statement, Jim; I'm willing to get them some credit....and recognize that it may have been more effective in keeping us safer than many believe. OTOH, we may have been fortunate, more than anything else. Direct cause and effect relationship, of course, is difficult to prove, but proactive and aggressive is better IMO....in this case. Franklin's sentiments aside in the 21st Century.If you had not included the Patriot Acts I would agree.

Mr. Kotter
09-20-2008, 11:18 PM
If you had not included the Patriot Acts I would agree.

Fair enough. An honest disagreement. :shrug:

Logical
09-20-2008, 11:24 PM
Fair enough. An honest disagreement. :shrug:
The sad thing is I defended the implementation of Patriot Act I, boy was that a bad decision on my part.

irishjayhawk
09-21-2008, 12:31 AM
The sad thing is I defended the implementation of Patriot Act I, boy was that a bad decision on my part.

Don't feel bad. You got misled by the genius title of "Patriot" Act.

irishjayhawk
09-21-2008, 12:32 AM
Makes no difference. You'd have to be delusional, IMHO, to think that things aren't "different" in the post 9/11 world (than before)--including the chance of a major attack, on our own soil.

I have a question.

Were we safer in a post 93' WTC bombing?

Mr. Kotter
09-21-2008, 01:17 AM
I have a question.

Were we safer in a post 93' WTC bombing?

History says, "no." Terrorism escalated leading up to 9/11. :shrug:

In fairness to Clinton and the 90s Congress, although frequency increased gradually....magnitude did not get our real "attention" until 9/11. I don't blame them entirely, but one could make an argument we should have been more aggressive in addressing the problem. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20 though.

patteeu
09-21-2008, 07:34 AM
The sad thing is I defended the implementation of Patriot Act I, boy was that a bad decision on my part.

From your current perspective, pretty much everything you supported up until a couple of years ago was a bad decision on your part.

irishjayhawk
09-21-2008, 10:07 AM
History says, "no." Terrorism escalated leading up to 9/11. :shrug:

In fairness to Clinton and the 90s Congress, although frequency increased gradually....magnitude did not get our real "attention" until 9/11. I don't blame them entirely, but one could make an argument we should have been more aggressive in addressing the problem. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20 though.

What I would argue, then, is that we only have the illusion of safety. We're only as safe as the most observant person.

I just think you have to be either very partisan or very delusional to legitimately feel we are "safer" now than we were, say, in the late 90s.

Logical
09-21-2008, 04:53 PM
From your current perspective, pretty much everything you supported up until a couple of years ago was a bad decision on your part.Nah, I think invading Iraq was the right decision. I just think we should have left as soon as Saddam was capture. I am against the occupation not the invasion. I also still support our efforts in Afghanistan. I would also support efforts in Pakistan if we undertake them. I was never against abortion except in extremely limited cases. I have always been socially diametrically opposed to censorship and homophobia.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-21-2008, 05:04 PM
Nah, I think invading Iraq was the right decision.

Were you at all worried about the power vacuum that would have created?

Logical
09-21-2008, 05:27 PM
Were you at all worried about the power vacuum that would have created?I admit I did not see that coming, my mistake. But once the mistake was made, the true mistake was staying, staying increased Iran's regional stranglehold IMO. I also did not forsee that unintended result.

Donger
09-21-2008, 05:33 PM
It is somewhat amusing that anyone would participate in this thread.

Logical
09-21-2008, 05:40 PM
It is somewhat amusing that anyone would participate in this thread.Why?

ROYC75
09-25-2008, 12:59 AM
OK, I missed this one the other day, I'm voting McCain ( shocker, right ) but not because of the reasons the liberals on here think.

1) I disagree with his immigration, the amnesty crap. Send them back, get them the hell out or become a legal citizen and pay up, even for the years you have been here illegal. Now he can't do this or say this now,it's suicide right ....... but get them out.

2) I do wish he had more freedom on drilling, we need to take advantage of every possible way we can to soften the cost of energy on our citizens.

3) . I do feel he will be tough with foreign leaders, but at the same time, this can get you in trouble. McCain gets frustrated easily and with him as president, he will have a bigger ego to boot.

4). As much as everybody wants money back from Uncle Sam, we need to pay down our debt. McCain will not cut spending that much and will increase the military. We need to keep the taxes where they are , maybe a flat tax, but we need the revenue, a tax increase is suicide.

5) . Not an issue,but I do hate the dorky thumps up crap....... man up and do something else.

Other than that, that's about it.

Programmer
09-25-2008, 05:33 AM
OK, I missed this one the other day, I'm voting McCain ( shocker, right ) but not because of the reasons the liberals on here think.

1) I disagree with his immigration, the amnesty crap. Send them back, get them the hell out or become a legal citizen and pay up, even for the years you have been here illegal. Now he can't do this or say this now,it's suicide right ....... but get them out.

2) I do wish he had more freedom on drilling, we need to take advantage of every possible way we can to soften the cost of energy on our citizens.

3) . I do feel he will be tough with foreign leaders, but at the same time, this can get you in trouble. McCain gets frustrated easily and with him as president, he will have a bigger ego to boot.

4). As much as everybody wants money back from Uncle Sam, we need to pay down our debt. McCain will not cut spending that much and will increase the military. We need to keep the taxes where they are , maybe a flat tax, but we need the revenue, a tax increase is suicide.

5) . Not an issue,but I do hate the dorky thumps up crap....... man up and do something else.

Other than that, that's about it.

I agree with some of your concerns.

Thumbs up? Obama does similar gestures when he speaks. Bush has his ticks, "hard work".

Mecca
09-25-2008, 05:35 AM
You do understand that drilling isn't going to change our gas prices right?

Programmer
09-25-2008, 05:45 AM
You do understand that drilling isn't going to change our gas prices right?

You do realize drilling for oil now will help with future needs until an alternative source of energy is developed and put on line.

If you feel we can afford to pay the prices to the current suppliers you are hiding your head in the sand. We need to drill now, not to lower prices now, but to remove the strangle hold that the ME has on our economy.

ROYC75
09-25-2008, 10:16 AM
You do understand that drilling isn't going to change our gas prices right?


Right, that why we never drilled for 30 years, we are awaiting for the day it helps us ........ NOW.

If the idiots who keep saying this would have done this years ago, we would be less dependant on foreign oil and our cost would be down.

Keep it up, we will back to the horse and carriage, soon........