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View Full Version : General Politics Anyone else smelling a rat or sensing a trap? DEMS foolishly falling for W again?


memyselfI
09-19-2008, 03:02 PM
I'm not sure what it is exactly but I feel something weird is going on. The WH is frantically looking for ways to send monies to bail out financial institutions under the guise of saving Wall Street.

NObama and the DEMS cheer while the CONS protest. I can't help but feel the DEMS are being baited and about to fall into a huge trap by supporting the WH and appearing so willing to trust DUHbya in a crisis YET AGAIN.

Anyone else out there got the feeling the DEMS will be trying to chew a leg off soon????

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure what it is exactly but I feel something weird is going on. The WH is frantically looking for ways to send monies to bail out financial institutions under the guise of saving Wall Street.

NObama and the DEMS cheer while the CONS protest. I can't help but feel the DEMS are being baited and about to fall into a huge trap by supporting the WH and appearing so willing to trust DUHbya in a crisis YET AGAIN.

Anyone else out there got the feeling the DEMS will be trying to chew their legs off soon????

I think you are just looking further than it was something that had to be done.

Doesn't matter who likes it or who doesn't. We are all going to pay for this regardless of who is in the WH in January 2009.

tiptap
09-19-2008, 03:03 PM
The dems retired home so they can get some feeling from voter back home before coming back and hammering out something. But it won't be on Bush's terms alone.

memyselfI
09-19-2008, 03:08 PM
I think you are just looking further than it was something that had to be done.

Doesn't matter who likes it or who doesn't. We are all going to pay for this regardless of who is in the WH in January 2009.

Oh, this shit has been about to hit the fan for MONTHS now. All of a sudden it's time to move? I know GWB is headed out the door and so maybe he's feeling more frisky, generous, and gutsy than he felt months ago. But he's got to be aware of the political dynamics here.

Is he trying to help or hurt his party on the way out? Has he put his party in a position to look like heroes or the bad guys in his attempt to save the country from economic demise? Or is he using this as a way to payback his party that bailed on him giving the DEMS a head start in trying to fix the problems he's knows are on the horizon. Or did he give them a gift to finally wash their hands of him by giving them a line in the sand.

I don't know.

Programmer
09-19-2008, 03:13 PM
Oh, this shit has been about to hit the fan for MONTHS now. All of a sudden it's time to move? I know GWB is headed out the door and so maybe he's feeling more frisky, generous, and gutsy than he felt months ago. But he's got to be aware of the political dynamics here.

Is he trying to help or hurt his party on the way out? Has he put his party in a position to look like heroes or the bad guys in his attempt to save the country from economic demise? Or is he using this as a way to payback his party that bailed on him giving the DEMS a head start in trying to fix the problems he's knows are on the horizon. Or did he give them a gift to finally wash their hands of him by giving them a line in the sand.

I don't know.

Bush has been working since 2001, according to Bil O'Reily's show today, to reverse the decision made in 1999 regarding the financial situation on Wall Street.

It hasn't been a "oops this week we are fooked" issue.

He doesn't really need to make the dems look bad, they have been on that track for quite a while now.

penchief
09-19-2008, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure what it is exactly but I feel something weird is going on. The WH is frantically looking for ways to send monies to bail out financial institutions under the guise of saving Wall Street.

NObama and the DEMS cheer while the CONS protest. I can't help but feel the DEMS are being baited and about to fall into a huge trap by supporting the WH and appearing so willing to trust DUHbya in a crisis YET AGAIN.

Anyone else out there got the feeling the DEMS will be trying to chew a leg off soon????

As much as I hate to agree with you, yes. I've been keeping my concerns to myself but somehow I can't get past the feeling that this is just another domino in the chain of events intended to bankrupt government so that it is no longer capable of serving the public interest.

I've been hoping that it's just a case of paranioa but it does concern me.

jAZ
09-19-2008, 03:25 PM
I'm not sure what it is exactly but I feel something weird is going on. The WH is frantically looking for ways to send monies to bail out financial institutions under the guise of saving Wall Street.

NObama and the DEMS cheer while the CONS protest. I can't help but feel the DEMS are being baited and about to fall into a huge trap by supporting the WH and appearing so willing to trust DUHbya in a crisis YET AGAIN.

Anyone else out there got the feeling the DEMS will be trying to chew a leg off soon????
I think we are at the verge of a full on depression if we don't do this. The general plan itself seems pretty reasonable.

But I think that the Repubilcans are going to try to oppose the only sensible solution as if there is some alternative when there isn't.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Does anyone get the sense that Denise is now supporting Obama?

Call it a 6th sense

memyselfI
09-19-2008, 03:31 PM
Does anyone get the sense that Denise is now supporting Obama?

Call it a 6th sense

You obviously need some sleep.

I think the DEMS of falling into the trap of 'big government' OPM addicts. We heard the word socialist thrown around by the CONS today. The same word we hear whispered about NObama and his associations.

Call me a cynic but I think they are setting the DEMS up to embrace these huge bailouts and then will blast them as moving the country towards socialism when they do.

I think that is why NObama is smart enough (while chickenshit enough) to not throw his support behind this package because he knows it will stick to him like glue when he does.

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:37 PM
You obviously need some sleep.

I think the DEMS of falling into the trap of 'big government' OPM addicts. We heard the word socialist thrown around by the CONS today. The same word we hear whispered about NObama and his associations.

Call me a cynic but I think they are setting the DEMS up to embrace these huge bailouts and then will blast them as moving the country towards socialism when they do.

I think that is why NObama is smart enough (while chickenshit enough) to not throw his support behind this package because he knows it will stick to him like glue when he does.

I think you are coming around...slowly but surely.

You realize that you agree with him on almost every issue and you can't stand McCain or Palin.

I could be wrong though...

SBK
09-19-2008, 03:37 PM
Everything that the gov't is doing now to prevent a recession, meltdown, whatever, is just propping things up temporarily making the next one far worse.

memyselfI
09-19-2008, 03:39 PM
I think you are coming around...slowly but surely.

You realize that you agree with him on almost every issue and you can't stand McCain or Palin.

I could be wrong though...

I am not voting for him, Dirk. I'm not supporting either utterly worthless candidate.

memyselfI
09-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Everything that the gov't is doing now to prevent a recession, meltdown, whatever, is just propping things up temporarily making the next one far worse.

Which, if my hunch is correct and the CONS are betting on, will happen with NOBama as POTUS and we will point back to this date and time and see it as a point where things got worse and the DEMS where there helping GWB make it that way. :doh!:

dirk digler
09-19-2008, 03:41 PM
I am not voting for him, Dirk. I'm not supporting either utterly worthless candidate.

Will see..6 weeks is a long time.

memyselfI
09-19-2008, 04:21 PM
Will see..6 weeks is a long time.

If I was serious enough to quit the party I'd been a member of for 26 years then I doubt I'll see much of anything that would change my mind about it's nominee I detest in 6 weeks.

It's over for me and the Democratic party. I'm in recovery without the 12 steps. :)

BucEyedPea
09-19-2008, 04:24 PM
I think we are at the verge of a full on depression if we don't do this. The general plan itself seems pretty reasonable.

They're doing what Hoover did that brought on the Depression...and what made it last longer: They want to prevent falling prices.

That's a mistake. It needs to happen. The malinvestment must be liquidated. This isn't over and they will make it worse in the long run. Feel the pain now and it will correct earlier.

jAZ
09-22-2008, 10:24 PM
I'm sensing that denise is right on the mark here. The Republicans are setting playing this crisis of their own doing as a political tool instead of something that they should fix. The media should follow this closely.

http://www.thenextright.com/patrick-ruffini/republicans-should-vote-against-the-bailout

Republicans Should Vote Against the Bailout
by Patrick Ruffini | September 21, 2008 at 9:25 PM

Republican incumbents in close races have the easiest vote of their lives coming up this week: No on the Bush-Pelosi Wall Street bailout.

God Himself couldn't have given rank-and-file Republicans a better opportunity to create political space between themselves and the Administration. That's why I want to see 40 Republican No votes in the Senate, and 150+ in the House. If a bailout is to pass, let it be with Democratic votes. Let this be the political establishment (Bush Republicans in the White House + Democrats in Congress) saddling the taxpayers with hundreds of billions in debt (more than the Iraq War, conjured up in a single weekend, and enabled by Pelosi, btw), while principled Republicans say "No" and go to the country with a stinging indictment of the majority in Congress.

This creates pressure on the "change" message. If this issue is made controversial, and Obama is not the first to make it an issue, how exactly is a Washington deal backed by Bush's Treasury Secretary "change?"

But for this to be actionable, it has to be controversial. So this can't be a few lonely voices like Coburn and DeMint. It needs to be the bulk of the Republican conference. In an ideal world, McCain opposes this because of all the Democratic add-ons and shows up to vote Nay while Obama punts.

History has shown us that "inevitable" "emergency" legislation like the Patriot Act or Sarbanes-Oxley is never more popular than on the day it is passed -- and this isn't all that popular to begin with. All the upside comes with voting against it.

A bailout may be inevitable, but so to can be the political benefit for Congressional Republicans if played correctly.

jAZ
09-22-2008, 10:29 PM
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2008/09/club_for_growth_condemns_feder_1.php


Club for Growth Condemns Federal Bailout
Government Intervention is not the Answer

Washington – The Club for Growth condemned the massive government bailout proposed by the Treasury and the Bush administration as unnecessary, unfair to taxpayers, and fraught with serious costs to the American economy.

Eighteen months into the credit crunch, many largely capitalized financial services firms are experiencing serious difficulties but the overall economy continues to grow. GDP growth over the past 12 months was 2.25 percent and 3.5 percent when excluding the drag imposed by the housing sector. Even within the financial sector, many banks are doing well. Regional bank indices had risen significantly since the lows of last July—prior to the bailout announcement—and thousands of community banks are thriving. It is extraordinary that a massive government intervention in the economy is considered inevitable when the economy is not even in a recession.

At the same time, socializing economic risks come at a great cost to the American economy by misallocating capital, inviting political manipulation, and putting taxpayers on the hook for possibly a trillion dollars. Such a large takeover by the government will surely be accompanied by adverse, unintended consequences. Already, other companies and industries are lining up at government’s door asking for their own bailout. And if the government incurs $700 billion in debt to finance the purchase of bad bank assets, the danger that it will eventually monetize that debt and trigger dramatic inflation is very worrisome.

“The Treasury’s bailout proposal will likely cause more harm than good,” said Club for Growth President Pat Toomey. “Instead of launching the largest government bailout since the Great Depression, the government should be implementing policies to stimulate the economy. These include, at a minimum, cutting the tax on capital gains, cutting corporate taxes, reviewing and considering repeal of FAS 57 which requires banks to mark-to-market most securities, and emphasizing the need for a strong dollar.”

“Finally, many politicians are using the current struggle to make free-market capitalism the scapegoat for the economy’s troubles, when in fact, government played a major role in getting us into this mess in the first place. Free-market capitalism is alive and well, and we should be embracing its tenets, not rejecting them.”

jAZ
09-22-2008, 10:45 PM
This Krugman article (written with a different intention) put it into context for me.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/daddy-doesnt-know-best/

September 22, 2008, 6:11 pm
Daddy doesn’t know best

I’ve had more time to read the Dodd proposal — and it is a big improvement over the Paulson plan. The key feature, I believe, is the equity participation: if Treasury buys assets, it gets warrants that can be converted into equity if the price of the purchased assets falls. This both guarantees against a pure bailout of the financial firms, and opens the door to a real infusion of capital, if that becomes necessary — and I think it will.

Can this be done? Can the Paulson juggernaut be stopped? I’m starting to think yes. Paulson displayed a lot of arrogance here — he basically marched in and said Daddy knows best, don’t worry your pretty little heads about the details. He offered no, zero, zilch explanation of how the plan was supposed to work — just “it’s a crisis and we need to act now.” And he overreached, especially with that demand for immunity from any review.

Now we’ve had a lot of pushback from economists and financial analysts, and the realization has sunk in that this particular daddy has shown very little sign of knowing best. So there’s a real chance to do something quite different.
Over reach, let the Reps shreik about how bad the plan is, score points. Let the Dems push back on the details and get what they (Bush/Paulson) were expecting all along. Then let the Reps campaign on the newly negotiated Bush/Dem bill, which they played an intimate role in crafting.

Nevermind that the new version looks hardly anything like the original one and that the Dems pushed through protections for the taxpayers.

Just run against the whole "bailout" and plan.

Watch.

RINGLEADER
09-22-2008, 11:51 PM
I'm not sure what it is exactly but I feel something weird is going on. The WH is frantically looking for ways to send monies to bail out financial institutions under the guise of saving Wall Street.

NObama and the DEMS cheer while the CONS protest. I can't help but feel the DEMS are being baited and about to fall into a huge trap by supporting the WH and appearing so willing to trust DUHbya in a crisis YET AGAIN.

Anyone else out there got the feeling the DEMS will be trying to chew a leg off soon????

I think it has less to do with saving Wall Street and more to do with saving the basic underpinnings of the world economy. If the flow of capital stops it will have a domino effect that will stretch from the banking system to business to employees. And the collapse will be spectacular in both its breadth and speed.

Now, if you accept that premise (which I know a lot of people won't), I would agree that the document originally proffered is pretty extraordinary. Thanks to the wonderful world of partisanship, however, a lot of the egregious points in Paulson's original proposal are being re-written.

I hope they get it dealt with quickly and make it as good as they can. As it stands we're now drifting towards some strange mix of fascism, socialism, and capitalism.

RINGLEADER
09-22-2008, 11:56 PM
Just run against the whole "bailout" and plan.

Watch.

I really hope they don't use this as a political chip. There are enough of them to go around already. If not, and if you can't get your money out, and companies don't have access to the capital they need (and there are a lot of companies that operate using such credit) to meet payroll, and people don't have money because of it to pay their bills this kind of plotting will seem about as important in the grand scheme of the world as lipstick did on a pig two weeks ago.

Ari Chi3fs
09-23-2008, 12:06 AM
The market crash is going to be a catalyst toward taking the oil off the dollar standard on onto the Euro... this crash will further be a catalyst toward the NAU and the Amero.

Mark it down.

jAZ
09-23-2008, 12:12 AM
The market crash is going to be a catalyst toward taking the oil off the dollar standard on onto the Euro...


Very good point.

Logical
09-23-2008, 12:18 AM
You obviously need some sleep.

I think the DEMS of falling into the trap of 'big government' OPM addicts. We heard the word socialist thrown around by the CONS today. The same word we hear whispered about NObama and his associations.

Call me a cynic but I think they are setting the DEMS up to embrace these huge bailouts and then will blast them as moving the country towards socialism when they do.

I think that is why NObama is smart enough (while chickenshit enough) to not throw his support behind this package because he knows it will stick to him like glue when he does.Why on earth is being smart chickenshit. You really are working too hard to dislike Obama.

Logical
09-23-2008, 12:25 AM
The market crash is going to be a catalyst toward taking the oil off the dollar standard on onto the Euro... this crash will further be a catalyst toward the NAU and the Amero.

Mark it down.Not sure why you don't realize Europe (thus the Euro) is likely crashing with us. Hell the Chinese may be collapsing with us. I see Japan coming out smelling like a rose.

Ari Chi3fs
09-23-2008, 06:30 AM
Not sure why you don't realize Europe (thus the Euro) is likely crashing with us. Hell the Chinese may be collapsing with us. I see Japan coming out smelling like a rose.

This shit is all part of a bigger picture. Euro is what they want to have as the oil standard. Plus they want to weaken the dollar and move us to a new currency.

Been in the works for a long time people, finally coming to fruition.

Too bad that people who see the govt lies are moonbat crazy and wear tinfoil hats.

StcChief
09-23-2008, 07:12 AM
Bush has been working since 2001, according to Bil O'Reily's show today, to reverse the decision made in 1999 regarding the financial situation on Wall Street.

It hasn't been a "oops this week we are fooked" issue.

He doesn't really need to make the dems look bad, they have been on that track for quite a while now.
yeah. a good 50 years.