United States about to become a 2nd rate power

[Logical]

I expect this crisis will move China to the #1 Superpower slot in the next five years. The US being stretched too thin on military fronts. The US economic crisis (bailout or not) is going to bring our economy down hard. We are going to be shutoff from Arab/Persian/Venezuelan oil soon you watch. Five years from now China take world leadership and we will be trying to recover from this disaster.

Your thoughts?

[Calcountry]

We must have change. We should elect a Marxist becuase free markets failed.

[RJ]

I think it could happen but I don't think it has to happen. Scale back the military pursuits and balance the budget. Stop being a borrower nation, start manufacturing, even if we have to pay a few $$ more to buy our own products. Reinstate tariffs on imports. Become an energy leader instead of relying on foreign oil. So many things we can do if we have the collective balls to give up some things.

[Calcountry]

I think it could happen but I don't think it has to happen. Scale back the military pursuits and balance the budget. Stop being a borrower nation, start manufacturing, even if we have to pay a few $$ more to buy our own products. Reinstate tariffs on imports. Become an energy leader instead of relying on foreign oil. So many things we can do if we have the collective balls to give up some things.The environazis will never stand for us having anything other than good vibrations to fuel us into this century. They are happy that the price of gas is high. They are happy that our country is decending into a turd world nation.

On the other side, we have the gimme more voters. These are a coalition of voters that receive more than they pay into the government, so they could give a damn about bail outs, or deficits, as long as thier bacon shows up every month. Plus free scription drugs, plus health care, plus affordable housing(oops).

This shit hasn't stopped? Jim L asked them, what will you have take off your agenda because of the bailout, and BO stuttered and stammered around it. He has to promise more more more bacon. He can't deliver the change that people want, so really, wtf is he going to do?

Be careful what you wish for.

[banyon]

We must have change. We should elect a Marxist becuase free markets failed.
We must overreact and falsely label people as the enemy if our status quo policies could be upset even in the least.

[banyon]

This shit hasn't stopped? Jim L asked them, what will you have take off your agenda because of the bailout, and BO stuttered and stammered around it. He has to promise more more more bacon. He can't deliver the change that people want, so really, wtf is he going to do?

Be careful what you wish for.

Lol, yeah I remember when McCain just knocked that question out of the park.

[beavis]

I think it could happen but I don't think it has to happen. Scale back the military pursuits and balance the budget. Stop being a borrower nation, start manufacturing, even if we have to pay a few $$ more to buy our own products. Reinstate tariffs on imports. Become an energy leader instead of relying on foreign oil. So many things we can do if we have the collective balls to give up some things.

That's just what we need. More isolationist policies.

[RJ]

That's just what we need. More isolationist policies.



What part did you think was isolationist? The tariffs or the scaling back of military pursuits?

[Amnorix]

China could become the world's foremost superpower, no doubt. They have the economic and geographic resources to do it, and several inherent advantages. But it will take >5 years, and it's not a foregone conclusion. As they industrialize and modernize, they will have increasing problems with regard to their trade balance, local wages, environmental issues, utter lack of regulation and the continuation of their oppressive dictatorial government structure.

What the Chinese government is attempting to do has never been done before. It remains to be seen if they can pull it off.

[patteeu]

I expect this crisis will move China to the #1 Superpower slot in the next five years. The US being stretched too thin on military fronts. The US economic crisis (bailout or not) is going to bring our economy down hard. We are going to be shutoff from Arab/Persian/Venezuelan oil soon you watch. Five years from now China take world leadership and we will be trying to recover from this disaster.

Your thoughts?

Yeah, I think Obama might win too.

:D

[RJ]

Yeah, I think Obama might win too.


That was pretty funny.

[Logical]

We must have change. We should elect a Marxist becuase free markets failed.Hardly the point, if you will read it again it says nothing about who will be elected.

[Logical]

I think it could happen but I don't think it has to happen. Scale back the military pursuits and balance the budget. Stop being a borrower nation, start manufacturing, even if we have to pay a few $$ more to buy our own products. Reinstate tariffs on imports. Become an energy leader instead of relying on foreign oil. So many things we can do if we have the collective balls to give up some things.
Nice take, hope it happens.

[Kraut]

I think it could happen but I don't think it has to happen. Scale back the military pursuits and balance the budget. Stop being a borrower nation, start manufacturing, even if we have to pay a few $$ more to buy our own products. Reinstate tariffs on imports. Become an energy leader instead of relying on foreign oil. So many things we can do if we have the collective balls to give up some things.

I think your right on the mark ! The big thing being that we start manufacturing again. Of course the other points are important too if we are to get through this disaster.

[KILLER_CLOWN]

I think it could happen but I don't think it has to happen. Scale back the military pursuits and balance the budget. Stop being a borrower nation, start manufacturing, even if we have to pay a few $$ more to buy our own products. Reinstate tariffs on imports. Become an energy leader instead of relying on foreign oil. So many things we can do if we have the collective balls to give up some things.

almost perfect! It will take quite a while to move off of oil but why not at least head that direction?

[splatbass]

We must have change. We should elect a Marxist becuase free markets failed.

There is no Marxist running. The closest would be Nader, but he's not one either.

[Zebedee DuBois]

China already holds our mortgage.

[splatbass]

On the other side, we have the gimme more voters. These are a coalition of voters that receive more than they pay into the government, so they could give a damn about bail outs, or deficits, as long as thier bacon shows up every month.

I receive more from the government than I pay in. I'm a defense contractor. I guess that isn't what you meant though, huh? ;)

John McCain receives more from the government than he pays in. George Bush receives more from the government than he pays in.....:)

[Logical]

I receive more from the government than I pay in. I'm a defense contractor. I guess that isn't what you meant though, huh? ;)

John McCain receives more from the government than he pays in. George Bush receives more from the government than he pays in.....:)

Oh but your examples don't count and neither does the fact that the buying power of those dollars the poor receive are far less today than they were in the 80s. I suppose you won't find data that shows the drop in the poors buying power after the dollar is adjusted for inflation. Hell you won't even find the data for the middle class.

[SBK]

If China keeps growing like they are, they're going to have an internal struggle with the current governmental situation. Eventually they're either going to have to stop growing, or they're going to have to change their form of gov't. I've been told by my friends from China that they've already made some changes, but everyone knows that a wealthy people will want to be a free people.....

On a side note, China owns us financially.....

[alnorth]

On a side note, China owns us financially.....

Theres an old saying, which goes like: "If you owe the local bank 100 grand, the bank owns you. If you owe the local bank 100 million, you own the bank."

The OP is just a BIT of silly hyperbole. Militarily speaking, there really is not much of a contest. We've had that discussion on this board too many times to count. You cant just assume our troops in other conflicts are off the table in a wacky hypothetical combat situation, there is nothing we have thats too important to be abandoned for a direct threat.

Financially speaking, we are near the bridge and have collectively grabbed the arms of the rest of the world, ESPECIALLY china. If we go over, they fall with us.

[Howlin Wolf]

everything is made in China

[SBK]

Theres an old saying, which goes like: "If you owe the local bank 100 grand, the bank owns you. If you owe the local bank 100 million, you own the bank."

The OP is just a BIT of silly hyperbole. Militarily speaking, there really is not much of a contest. We've had that discussion on this board too many times to count. You cant just assume our troops in other conflicts are off the table in a wacky hypothetical combat situation, there is nothing we have thats too important to be abandoned for a direct threat.

Financially speaking, we are near the bridge and have collectively grabbed the arms of the rest of the world, ESPECIALLY china. If we go over, they fall with us.

I agree with what you're saying. I meant it more in the way it's put in the Proverbs, "the borrower is slave to the lender."

[alnorth]

As for this:

We are going to be shutoff from Arab/Persian/Venezuelan oil soon you watch.

Cant happen. There is no such thing as we looking to buy oil, going up to a foreign country, and buying it from them. (one exception, see below) It doesnt work that way. Its a world market and they sell to the high bidder. The world oil price has one price, these countries cant prevent us from buying from Canada or Russia or one of umpteen dozen other countries who produce.

Venezuela in particular is forced against their will to deal with us. We smile politely and ignore their maniac leader's rantings, but the fact is, Venezuela has some of the crappiest sulfer-ridden oil in the world. The only refineries in the world set up to take their junk is in the US. They literally MUST sell to the US, unless they dont mind selling to nobody and screwing themselves. If push comes to shove, we seize their refineries and nationalize them.

[Logical]

As for this:



Cant happen. There is no such thing as we looking to buy oil, going up to a foreign country, and buying it from them. (one exception, see below) It doesnt work that way. Its a world market and they sell to the high bidder. The world oil price has one price, these countries cant prevent us from buying from Canada or Russia or one of umpteen dozen other countries who produce.

Venezuela in particular is forced against their will to deal with us. We smile politely and ignore their maniac leader's rantings, but the fact is, Venezuela has some of the crappiest sulfer-ridden oil in the world. The only refineries in the world set up to take their junk is in the US. They literally MUST sell to the US, unless they dont mind selling to nobody and screwing themselves. If push comes to shove, we seize their refineries and nationalize them.Sorry I was not clear, this is the way the terrorists are going to hurt us. They are going to start taking out supertankers, to really hurt us. Much easier than attacks in country.

[Cannibal]

Everyone wanting manufacturing (rightly so), should wake up and smell the coffee. It's all about labor and these greedy companies can find cheap labor outside this country. It's sickening.

Even if we totally eliminated all corporate taxes, the companies could still make more money overseas because labor is so much cheaper.

It just too bad that Americans require a living wage (that keeps shrinking by the minute) to survive.

[alnorth]

Sorry I was not clear, this is the way the terrorists are going to hurt us. They are going to start taking out supertankers, to really hurt us. Much easier than attacks in country.

Gotcha. That doesn't exactly benefit anyone else though, China and the rest of the world is equally screwed. This would just be pure chaos in the world oil market to hurt everyone for some vague reason. Kinda like letting loose a horrible disease in a small town because there are a few guys in there you dont like, and your not concerned about hurting everyone else.

[alnorth]

Everyone wanting manufacturing (rightly so), should wake up and smell the coffee. It's all about labor and these greedy companies can find cheap labor outside this country. It's sickening.

Complaining about it is also meaningless. This is not the 19th century, we cant use protective tariffs, we live in a world market, and that includes the labor market. There are many things we can do and produce that they cant, and their wages will slowly rise as well.

Getting mad about it is kinda like someone in El Paso getting mad at the high temperatures he has to suffer compared to people further north. You can either move or adapt, but you wont dim the sun.

It just too bad that Americans require a living wage (that keeps shrinking by the minute) to survive.

Our definition of "survive" is often their (India, Pakistan, China, etc) definition of "fabulously wealthy". Its not like they live our lifestyle at cheaper prices, they make do with less and generally dont realize this "comfort gap" even exists.