View Full Version : U.S. Issues Can B.O. clean up the mess?
SHTSPRAYER
10-04-2008, 10:50 AM
I just would like all the O-bots to go on record now, because two years into his administration the country will be ten times worse AND I KNOW THAT all of you O-Bots will be blaming Bush, not B.O.'s marxist policies.
So tell me, O-Bots, you are the ones you have been waiting for; you will be the one's responsible for putting B.O. in power...
Where do you see the nation one or two years or even three or four years into his administration? Compare it to now, will it be better? Or worse?
According to McCain himself, the bailout wasn't the "beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning".
Every other analyst I've heard says the same. This is going to get much worse before it gets better and it doesn't matter whether McCain or Obama wins, it's going to get worse.
It's going to take a long time to dig out of this mess.
The difference is that Obama won't keep digging DOWN like McCain has pledged to do, he'll dig over and gradually up until we can climb out on our own.
NoLurkerNoMore
10-04-2008, 10:58 AM
Who knows if he can handle it. Nobody can see in the future apart from you and your ilk. Anyway what happens under your watch is your responsibility. If in two years time the USA is worse off than Obama will get rightly blamed and in four years time you have chance to vote Sarah Palin or some other Republicans.
'Hamas' Jenkins
10-04-2008, 10:58 AM
Imagine rebuilding a football team.
First you have to clear out the entire FO. Then you have to get rid of the prior culture that helped lead to apathy and incompetence. Then you have to put your own people into place with your own system and philosophy. Then you start drafting your players and running your offensive and defensive schemes.
Generally in the first year or two of the rebuild the team will be empirically worse, but will show signs of improvement.
What people will need to look for are trends of improvement, rather than where we are this week. With that being said, it would be hard to fuck up the country any more than Bush, who was given a 12-4 team, and by the time he was done, filled it up with bloated veterans who can't play anymore, left the team in cap hell, and finished off with consecutive seasons of 2-14.
Sometimes it takes a while to get the shit lodged free from the crapper.
HolmeZz
10-04-2008, 10:59 AM
If you truly want this thread to go anwhere, SHITTY, you'll first need to take responsibility for voting for Bush twice and fucking up royally. Until then, you're in no position to criticize the votes of anyone else.
Imagine rebuilding a football team.
5 year plan! 5 year plan!
:p
KILLER_CLOWN
10-04-2008, 11:38 AM
No!
nobody knows
can McCain?
nobody knows
will the people surrounding the next president really try to help him clean it up will be a question that is just as important.
many people *cough*karkrove*cough* have absolutely no desire to clean it up.
J Diddy
10-04-2008, 11:46 AM
I think in year 1 obama will have all the roads paved with gold. This will create jobs for the road pavers & gold miners. This will surely end poverty because every vagrant will have a ready source of cash flow just by chipping off pieces of the road.
I doubt that Obama or McCain can clean things up any time soon. I have more confidence in Obama getting the job done than I do McCain so I will vote for Obama. Palin as VP nominee absolutely seals the deal. Terribly irresponsible on McCain's part, leaves me with no trust at all in his decision making. If he picked a cabinet the way he picked a VP this country would be thoroughly screwed.
If I get any clarity on the future I'll certainly let everyone know. Free of charge.
BucEyedPea
10-04-2008, 11:57 AM
Every other analyst I've heard says the same. This is going to get much worse before it gets better and it doesn't matter whether McCain or Obama wins, it's going to get worse.
It's going to take a long time to dig out of this mess.
It is going to get worse before it gets better. But it need not take a long time to dig out of this mess. It can take under 2 years, IF the govt stops intervening in certain areas but regulates the right areas. The central activity of an economy is entreprenuerial activity, not govt activity.
I see Bush much like Hoover, who was claimed to be non-interventionist but actually wasn't. He tried to keep prices from going down, and keep them up when the opposite needs to happen. Keynesian economists don't believe in having the opposite happen...and that will lead to another Depression as it did in the 1930's. I don't think Obama comes from any different economic camp, but a more extreme version of the same. He will intervene heavily, over-regulate the wrong areas making it last a long time just as FDR did. He will be FDR II...just as Bush is Hoover II.
That's the Austrian pov. And events are playing out the same way. Obama will finish off the American economy into full socialism. McCain won't be much different...he'd be more of a national socialist while Obama would be more like a EuroSocialist.
sportsshrink
10-04-2008, 12:00 PM
I doubt that Obama or McCain can clean things up any time soon. I have more confidence in Obama getting the job done than I do McCain so I will vote for Obama. Palin as VP nominee absolutely seals the deal. Terribly irresponsible on McCain's part, leaves me with no trust at all in his decision making. If he picked a cabinet the way he picked a VP this country would be thoroughly screwed.
If I get any clarity on the future I'll certainly let everyone know. Free of charge.
You have more confidence in Obama. Why?
No president will clean this mess up in 4 years much less 2. Especially not with the idiots in congress right now. Plus, whichever party is in power will just blame the other side at the end of the administration. Nobody takes responsibility for anything in DC.
sportsshrink
10-04-2008, 12:18 PM
No president will clean this mess up in 4 years much less 2. Especially not with the idiots in congress right now. Plus, whichever party is in power will just blame the other side at the end of the administration. Nobody takes responsibility for anything in DC.
I can assure you of this if the "Black Marxist" wins. The press who will eventually have won this election for him, will paint the economy as not as bad as it will be or even worse will paint "blue skies". They will cover this guy's ass at every turn. If McCain wins it will be bad no matter what. :shake:
HolmeZz
10-04-2008, 12:19 PM
I can assure you of this if the "Black Marxist" wins...
lol obamas black
I can assure you of this if the "Black Marxist" wins. The press who will eventually have won this election for him, will paint the economy as not as bad as it will be or even worse will paint "blue skies". They will cover this guy's ass at every turn. If McCain wins it will be bad no matter what. :shake:
I have lost all respect for the media after this year.
Baby Lee
10-04-2008, 01:24 PM
Imagine rebuilding a football team.
Yeah, kind of like deciding that since Vermiel was a failure, we should hope for change with Herm Edwards.
Baby Lee
10-04-2008, 01:28 PM
I see Bush much like Hoover, who was claimed to be non-interventionist but actually wasn't. He tried to keep prices from going down, and keep them up when the opposite needs to happen. Keynesian economists don't believe in having the opposite happen...and that will lead to another Depression as it did in the 1930's. I don't think Obama comes from any different economic camp, but a more extreme version of the same. He will intervene heavily, over-regulate the wrong areas making it last a long time just as FDR did. He will be FDR II...just as Bush is Hoover II.
He said he didn't like DeGaulle, nor no Chiang Kai Shek;
Shook hands with Joseph Stalin, says: "There's a man I like!"
This world was lucky to see him born.
Yeah, kind of like deciding that since Vermiel was a failure, we should hope for change with Herm Edwards.
wait, are you comparing Bush to Vermiel?
sportsshrink
10-04-2008, 01:49 PM
I have lost all respect for the media after this year.
Welcome home! Journalism has been dead for years bathing naked in the "Woodstock pond" of liberalism with no shame or excuses for it. They have been held unaccountable for 35-40yrs. All of a sudden a news channel comes along presenting both sides of an argument (that's what good journalism does with no bias in the presentation) and now their 'liberal agenda' is threatened. People want the truth and you can't argue with the truth. Liberals can make fun of Fox all they want but they literally compete with the so-called Big 3 and crush their cable competitors. Their ratings will only get better as long as "biased journalism" is practiced. Ooops! "biased journalism" is an "oxymoron".
Welcome home! Journalism has been dead for years bathing naked in the "Woodstock pond" of liberalism with no shame or excuses for it. They have been held unaccountable for 35-40yrs. All of a sudden a news channel comes along presenting both sides of an argument (that's what good journalism does with no bias in the presentation) and now their 'liberal agenda' is threatened. People want the truth and you can't argue with the truth. Liberals can make fun of Fox all they want but they literally compete with the so-called Big 3 and crush their cable competitors. Their ratings will only get better as long as "biased journalism" is practiced. Ooops! "biased journalism" is an "oxymoron".
I admit I tend to turn to Fox but I see them as about as biased the other way anymore. They are easier for me to stomach as a conservative. I would still rather have a better option though.
SHTSPRAYER
10-04-2008, 01:57 PM
If you truly want this thread to go anwhere, SHITTY, you'll first need to take responsibility for voting for Bush twice and f***ing up royally. Until then, you're in no position to criticize the votes of anyone else.
I live in NJ, so my vote didn't mean anything. Bush lost NJ. I will say this, that B.O. will be "our" punishment for not letting Kerry win in '04. I think the R's would have a great candidate right now and Kerry would be just as beleagured as Bush is presently.
Or perhaps you think that this financial mess would not have happened during a Kerry administration?
'Hamas' Jenkins
10-04-2008, 02:04 PM
Yeah, kind of like deciding that since Vermiel was a failure, we should hope for change with Herm Edwards.
Nice false dichotomy.
Edwards was a known failure with an outdated ideology...kind of like...McCain.
Adept Havelock
10-04-2008, 02:22 PM
I admit I tend to turn to Fox but I see them as about as biased the other way anymore. They are easier for me to stomach as a conservative. I would still rather have a better option though.
As would I. However, I'm far from sure where this myth of a "non-partisan" press in our past comes from. All the way back to colonial days, the media (newspapers in those days) has almost always been partisan.
As would I. However, I'm far from sure where this myth of a "non-partisan" press in our past comes from. All the way back to colonial days, the media (newspapers in those days) has almost always been partisan.
True. I just don't think it was nearly as blatant as it is now. Also, the nightly network newscasts were much more trustworthy in the past. they make no bones about who they want elected now.
Ari Chi3fs
10-04-2008, 03:37 PM
Dude, Shitsprayer... this country is on an assisted road to bankruptcy. It doesn't matter which candidate is elected. Do you realize that this isn't about Bush or Cheney or Barack or McCain?
There is one party in this country, and if you haven't realized it by now, then you are a hopeless romantic.
Sully
10-04-2008, 05:01 PM
No.
He cannot.
Can he move in a direction I agree with? Yeah, I believe so.
But will he "fix" it?
No.
SHTSPRAYER
10-04-2008, 05:14 PM
Do you realize that this isn't about Bush or Cheney or Barack or McCain?
Of course I do, but do the O-Bots?
NCarlsCorner2
10-04-2008, 05:15 PM
What's funny is that Obama's people caused the mess, so chances are the answer is that if elected it will become an even bigger mess.
Velvet_Jones
10-04-2008, 10:38 PM
Every other analyst I've heard says the same. This is going to get much worse before it gets better and it doesn't matter whether McCain or Obama wins, it's going to get worse.
It's going to take a long time to dig out of this mess.
Maybe we should ask Barney Franks to help us out. He did wonders with FM & FM.
Velvet_Jones
10-04-2008, 10:41 PM
Theeeere I come thu thave thhhha day, its Barney Frank on thhha way!!!!!
KC Fish
10-05-2008, 12:17 AM
What's funny is that Obama's people caused the mess, so chances are the answer is that if elected it will become an even bigger mess.
The forum is getting less intelligent the closer we get to election...
Cannibal
10-05-2008, 01:19 AM
It can take under 2 .
You have NO clue how long it might take, no one does, government intervention or not.
DaneMcCloud
10-05-2008, 02:00 AM
I just would like all the O-bots to go on record now, because two years into his administration the country will be ten times worse AND I KNOW THAT all of you O-Bots will be blaming Bush, not B.O.'s marxist policies.
So tell me, O-Bots, you are the ones you have been waiting for; you will be the one's responsible for putting B.O. in power...
Where do you see the nation one or two years or even three or four years into his administration? Compare it to now, will it be better? Or worse?
Out of pure curiosity (and I may have missed it, so I apologize), what do you do for a living?
BucEyedPea
10-05-2008, 06:31 AM
You have NO clue how long it might take, no one does, government intervention or not.
Yes I do have a clue. It's a reasonable estimation based on past economic panics going back into the 19th century. Check your financial history...from the Austrian pov.
Recessions have been taking longer to get out of due to govt intervention trying to allegedly restore the market. Check out the 1920-1921 depression that occured after all the govt economic stimulus which led to inflation to pay for WWI. Same exact pattern. It only lasted a year. Then the market restored. However, monetary policy got loose again after that, leading to the "Roaring 20's" ending in the bust of 1929. Govt intervened this time though. Voila! We got the great depression for more than a decade.
Granted, there's far more structural abnormalities today due all that's been done ( increased govt requiring higher tax rates for all, excessive and/or unproductive regulations, more socialism), even since the 1980's, but it will still be shorter if left alone. Gauranteed. Govt 'fs markets up. Case closed.
SHTSPRAYER
10-05-2008, 07:44 AM
Out of pure curiosity (and I may have missed it, so I apologize), what do you do for a living?
Transportation logistics and operations.
SHTSPRAYER
10-05-2008, 07:44 AM
Theeeere I come thu thave thhhha day, its Barney Frank on thhha way!!!!!
I like the way he said "Shibolith" in one of his rants.
ROFL
Adept Havelock
10-05-2008, 09:18 AM
I like the way he said "Shibolith" in one of his rants.
ROFL
Funny, he doesn't look Cthulhuish. :shrug:
sorry--but I think it bears repeating. NOBODY from DC can clean up this mess.
seriously, nobody in washington can clean up this mess.
the problem I have every four years is this:
power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
at one point, every single man/woman in washington went there, ideologically, to change this country for the better (regardless of political affiliation). however, when you have a staff of twenty telling you that YOU'RE the most important person in DC, you have lobbyists telling you that they need YOU because YOUR vote is the most important, all of the ideology in the world goes out the window because YOU'RE the most GODDAMNED important person in washington.
one of the main reasons the founding fathers never intended the system the way it is now--there was NEVER supposed to be a ruling class that ruled as a career. it was their intention that the 'common man' (in 1790 that was white male landowner) would go to DC to serve a term or two and get about his life. congress wouldn't pay enough to make it a career, and there would be an influx of new ideas every few years.
but this system is stagnant. has been probably 60-70 years. our political system has become a festering, rotting boil on the ass of this country. go ask most people: we don't trust our politicians as far as we can throw them, they can't balance a checkbook, why the FUCK would we want them to balance a federal fucking budget?
well, tom jefferson said it best--we need a revolution. not of guns, bullets, blood and knives. we need a revolution of ideas. we need fresh blood in washington DC. we need fresh blood in every office in this country. we need people whose sole motivation isn't to become the next rainmaker.
and the sad thing? it'll likely never happen. the people in this country are too fucking comfortable. I'm convinced the matter of another depression won't change fucking anything. people will continue to grasp onto the next power teet and buy any talking points as long as they don't have to face the sad, indelible truth.
we're royally FUCKED.
NCarlsCorner2
10-05-2008, 09:31 AM
The forum is getting less intelligent the closer we get to election...
Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson, Barney Franks, Chris Dodd and Obama himself, sorry it's above your head and you dont get it.
banyon
10-05-2008, 09:54 AM
Recessions have been taking longer to get out of due to govt intervention trying to allegedly restore the market. Check out the 1920-1921 depression that occured after all the govt economic stimulus which led to inflation to pay for WWI. Same exact pattern. It only lasted a year. Then the market restored. However, monetary policy got loose again after that, leading to the "Roaring 20's" ending in the bust of 1929. Govt intervened this time though. Voila! We got the great depression for more than a decade.
.
This is, of course an extremely deviant and minority take on the history of the Depression.
In reality, Hoover was lampooned for his unwillingness to take action and kept promising that the market would restore itself and that "prosperity was just around the corner."
The Austrian explanation is frankly, bizzare. Sounds like another attempt to fit the facts to a theory rather than vice versa, which is the way social science is supposed to work. I guess the obvious counterpoint would be that the Fed has had relatively loose monetary policy since 1980, probably looser than what is complained of here in the 1920s, plus the Fed actually contracted the supply in 1928 significantly, so if that were indeed the prime cause, why was the problem not ameliorated?
The mainstream explanation is the contraction of credit due to a reduction in consumption, which is very much like what we are going through now, except that it is concentrated in the housingmarket/mortgages. In other words, the monetary policy might be an accelerant, but not the cause of the fire.
Boyceofsummer
10-05-2008, 10:17 AM
that 'W' and the right wing ideologues are putting America in a hole that will take a generation to recover from. Now I'm not so sure if we will EVER fully recover. Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.lambs
Iowanian
10-05-2008, 07:56 PM
Yeah, kind of like deciding that since Vermiel was a failure, we should hope for change with Herm Edwards.
This is the perfect way to express how I feel about Obama.
Bush has drafted as shitty as Vermiel for 8 years, and now Hoperah is going to try keep Dick Curl to coach the neverwas and neverwillbe's he selects for his quarterback.
tiptap
10-06-2008, 08:32 AM
Think back to the early Clinton years. There was a close eye and coordination between the Clinton and the Treasury in order to coax the economy along. There was a higher tax rate on the rich and that money was seeded to projects which percolated through the economy before the fat cats reclaimed those seedings.
I suspect it will go something like that with these specifics. Failed properties assets that are in the same subdivision will be organized and federal programs will be used, slowly at first, to provide self sufficient energy neutral housing. The added cost of generating their own electricity will be part of the new mortgage (the property will have been enhanced) when the properties are resold.
This will be the model. It will spread to the private sector, highly regulated to assure quality and value. The transportation sector will move toward hybrids and electric and there will be more effort to redistribute populations so there is less need to spend energy dollars getting to and from work and save those dollars for recreating. Using the gas car or boat then.
The Wall st makes a come back financing the savings not going toward foreign oil. And Americans cut back on buying on credit as well. Put is a stop to the Iraq War expenditure, let Saudi Arabia fix Afganistan as a counter weight to Iran and in 4 years things do trend better and in 8 to 10 years recovery.
(Added to this with Universal Health Care the SS age will be raised and people living longer will be expected to work longer. This longer working life will be offset with 4 day work weeks of 36 to 40 hrs in part to cut down on commuting for work. This will help is the SS crunch for baby boomers.)
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 08:36 AM
Think back to the early Clinton years. There was a close eye and coordination between the Clinton and the Treasury in order to coax the economy along.
LMAO We were just in the middle of more Fed expansion of credit and loose monetary policy coming home to roost today. First it resulted in the .com boom———>leading to that bust. And now the current one. It's called an artificial stimulation because it's not based on the same level of productivity. We're going to see an inflationary depression, price and wage controls to control the mess. Totalitarianism may result. Our govt is broke.
KCJohnny
10-06-2008, 08:38 AM
Think back to the early Clinton years. There was a close eye and coordination between the Clinton and the Treasury in order to coax the economy along. There was a higher tax rate on the rich and that money was seeded to projects which percolated through the economy before the fat cats reclaimed those seedings.
I suspect it will go something like that with these specifics. Failed properties assets that are in the same subdivision will be organized and federal programs will be used, slowly at first, to provide self sufficient energy neutral housing. The added cost of generating their own electricity will be part of the new mortgage (the property will have been enhanced) when the properties are resold.
This will be the model. It will spread to the private sector, highly regulated to assure quality and value. The transportation sector will move toward hybrids and electric and there will be more effort to redistribute populations so there is less need to spend energy dollars getting to and from work and save those dollars for recreating. Using the gas car or boat then.
The Wall st makes a come back financing the savings not going toward foreign oil. And Americans cut back on buying on credit as well. Put is a stop to the Iraq War expenditure, let Saudi Arabia fix Afganistan as a counter weight to Iran and in 4 years things do trend better and in 8 to 10 years recovery.
(Added to this with Universal Health Care the SS age will be raised and people living longer will be expected to work longer. This longer working life will be offset with 4 day work weeks of 36 to 40 hrs in part to cut down on commuting for work. This will help is the SS crunch for baby boomers.)
This is pure 100% fantasy. You are touting the Euro model of socialism. You left out an important detail: the Europeans have benefitted from 60 years of uncle Sam paying their defense bill and keeping them from attacking each other. The cash they would have spent on their tribal wars and defense establishments has been invested into their peacetime economies and government programs.
We don't have a protectorate underwriting our defense spending and obligations. Also, under Euro styled socialism, the birth rates have dipped below 1.5 per couple - the signature of a civilization that has quit.
Neither does Europe have the large underclass of poor that we have in the US. Models based on Europe are insufficient to address the unique challenges of the United States.
tiptap
10-06-2008, 08:50 AM
Yes there will be a big decline in the Military spending for war efforts. You see this, as a military person, as a surrender. I have no expectations you will envision it otherwise. But bin Laudin wanted the US to spend its way to economic ruin and the military spending in Iraq is just that. It will be messy and it will take good diplomacy not overwhelming military intervention. We tried that for eight years and it contributed greatly to the present economic crisis. It spent our reserves in men and money.
A DEAR PRICE FOR SO LITTLE GAIN.
KCJohnny
10-06-2008, 09:18 AM
Yes there will be a big decline in the Military spending for war efforts. You see this, as a military person, as a surrender. I have no expectations you will envision it otherwise. But bin Laudin wanted the US to spend its way to economic ruin and the military spending in Iraq is just that. It will be messy and it will take good diplomacy not overwhelming military intervention. We tried that for eight years and it contributed greatly to the present economic crisis. It spent our reserves in men and money.
A DEAR PRICE FOR SO LITTLE GAIN.
My friend, the chump change we spent on national defense (provided for in our Constitution) compared to the lavish, extravagant spending we do on wealth redistribution (not authorized by the Constitution) such as F-Mac and F-Mae is beyond compare. You will have to make a stronger case than this to successfully argue that our toppling of threats in Afghanistan and Iraq were even a tertiary cause of economic failure in the US. The wars that have kept our enemies from attacking us successfully have cost just 4.4% of the GDP.
ROYC75
10-06-2008, 09:23 AM
According to McCain himself, the bailout wasn't the "beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning".
Every other analyst I've heard says the same. This is going to get much worse before it gets better and it doesn't matter whether McCain or Obama wins, it's going to get worse.
It's going to take a long time to dig out of this mess.
The difference is that Obama won't keep digging DOWN like McCain has pledged to do, he'll dig over and gradually up until we can climb out on our own.
Man, I was with you all the way till you got to the last part. You have that part backwards, Obama will continue the downward spiral due to socialist spending, increase inflation, cost of living,loss of jobs due to tax increases on Corporate America.
You almost had me going along with you ..... almost.
ROYC75
10-06-2008, 09:27 AM
No president will clean this mess up in 4 years much less 2. Especially not with the idiots in congress right now. Plus, whichever party is in power will just blame the other side at the end of the administration. Nobody takes responsibility for anything in DC.
QFT ........ It's a 12 year plan to turn it all around and America to becoming debt free.
One must keep in mind that a war will continue for sometime, the war on terror.
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 09:28 AM
QFT ........ It's a 12 year plan to turn it all around and America to becoming debt free.
One must keep in mind that a war will continue for sometime, the war on terror.
It's a metaphorical war and a farce.
ROYC75
10-06-2008, 09:35 AM
It's a metaphorical war and a farce.
Call it what you wish, it will still continue and climbing out as fast as you think is impossible.
KCJohnny
10-06-2008, 09:38 AM
It's a metaphorical war and a farce.
:shake:
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 09:42 AM
Call it what you wish, it will still continue and climbing out as fast as you think is impossible.
No it actually wouldn't exist. They came over here because we're over there.
Robert Pape, a conservative, has done extensive study on it and was one of Ron Paul's advisors. He is now an advisor to Obama, but he is a conservative. He is right. There is a direct cause and effect pattern...and it's occupation of their lands.
The Christian Right and other parts of the Right can't see it due to their historical rancour with the Muslim world including what is going on between them and Israel.
And the surge in Iraq can unravel at any time.
KCJohnny
10-06-2008, 09:47 AM
No it actually wouldn't exist. They came over here because we're over there.
Robert Pape, a conservative, has done extensive study on it and was one of Ron Paul's advisors. He is now an advisor to Obama, but he is a conservative. He is right. There is a direct cause and effect pattern...and it's occupation of their lands.
The Christian Right and other parts of the Right can't see it due to their historical rancour with the Muslim world including what is going on between them and Israel.
And the surge in Iraq can unravel at any time.
Ma'am, you are grossly uninformed about the real ground level conditions in Iraq. We no more caused this war than we did Pearl Harbor. Your citation of flakes that support both Ron Paul and Obama are revealing.
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 10:03 AM
Ma'am, you are grossly uninformed about the real ground level conditions in Iraq. We no more caused this war than we did Pearl Harbor. Your citation of flakes that support both Ron Paul and Obama are revealing.
I don't care what current ground conditions are in Iraq. I'm not really addressing that. It's irrelevant to the amount of lives lost for this mission that was unecessary since the place was not a threat to this country. And no we invaded Iraq which we factually initiated....it had no connection to 9/11. Afghanistan was different. But even there we should have just disrupted the camps, should have and could have caught binLaden and his right hand man. Then get off that land with a warning that if they aide binLaden, that we'd be back. Instead, we build bases that just happen to follow that gas pipeline while installing a leader who is perceived as a US puppet. Then take our troops off Saudi soil too.There was never any intention of getting BL and aZ.
KCJohnny
10-06-2008, 10:14 AM
I don't care what current ground conditions are in Iraq. I'm not really addressing that. It's irrelevant to the amount of lives lost for this mission that was unecessary since the place was not a threat to this country. And no we invaded Iraq which we factually initiated....it had no connection to 9/11. Afghanistan was different. But even there we should have just disrupted the camps, should have and could have caught binLaden and his right hand man. Then get off that land with a warning that if they aide binLaden, that we'd be back. Instead, we build bases that just happen to follow that gas pipeline while installing a leader who is perceived as a US puppet. Then take our troops off Saudi soil too.There was never any intention of getting BL and aZ.
Ma'am, we can no more prosecute a Global war on Terrorism without dealing with the wars we are already committed to (Iraq since 1990) than we can play the Raiders with 7 men on the field. It is a comprehensive, global prosecution of war, something you seem to know and care little about, but which I and my fellow service members live and breathe every day. The answers are not as simple as you posit, and inaction was never one of the choices. The world is smaller than it was 10 years ago, as chagrinned as that may leave you, and our relationships with all our neighbors, friend and foe are paramount to our survival.
You dismiss the role of Islam manipulated by Bin Laden and Iran, you ignore the tribal warfare of the 21st century. You wish the world was as cut and dry as the bi-polar world you learned about in college, but the messy, complax, tribal, religious, insurgent driven world of 2008 has little to do with your college textbooks.
The Cold war is over, and the only way to be secure in the 21st Century is to learn the rules of the game and play to win.
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 10:18 AM
We don't need to start conventional nation state warfare with a group of men who operate out of a cave that are not sponsored by any state. That's the first error. That is making it worse. It's both a criminal matter and a military matter to some extent. But not how we're doing it, which has increased acts of terror worldwide. It's just collective mind-think that this is the only way. We must also look at causes and if we have some bad FP actions they need to be revised. That is not blame. Those are the acts of a responsible person. Afterall, when a business rolls out a new product or campaign and either fail...it's back to the drawing board.
2bikemike
10-06-2008, 10:19 AM
Didn't wade through all the posts but the way I see it, Who ever gets elected will get credit just as Bush gets the blame. This was bound to happen regardless of who was in office. It was just a matter of time before it did. Just like it will be a matter of time before it ends. And who ever is in office when it ends is going to get the credit.
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 10:22 AM
Didn't wade through all the posts but the way I see it, Who ever gets elected will get credit just as Bush gets the blame. This was bound to happen regardless of who was in office. It was just a matter of time before it did. Just like it will be a matter of time before it ends. And who ever is in office when it ends is going to get the credit.
It ultimately will get worse even if it may seem better for an interim. The govt is broke. It can't bail shit out. The Fed is printing money to inflate us out of it. Why does not one mention the Fed's monetary policies here? That's what I wanna know. Those guys are there through administration changes.
2bikemike
10-06-2008, 10:41 AM
It ultimately will get worse even if it may seem better for an interim. The govt is broke. It can't bail shit out. The Fed is printing money to inflate us out of it. Why does not one mention the Fed's monetary policies here? That's what I wanna know. Those guys are there through administration changes.
Thats my point exactly. It just doesn't matter who the POTUS is. The whole fugging system is at fault here.
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 10:42 AM
Thats my point exactly. It just doesn't matter who the POTUS is. The whole fugging system is at fault here.
I see.
BucEyedPea
10-06-2008, 02:20 PM
The Cold war is over, and the only way to be secure in the 21st Century is to learn the rules of the game and play to win.
The Cold War is over. So it's time to pack up and go home from some places. In the meantime they cut bases on our mainland. There is no need to ressurrect a Cold War mentality for this.
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.