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Tribal Warfare
10-05-2008, 02:03 AM
Is Tony Gonzalez the best tight end ever? (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/826963.html)


BY KENT BABB  | THE KANSAS CITY STAR


The daydreamer is somewhere else now: a place where the cameras are off and the coaches don’t bark and the only thing that hits him hard is that last shot of tequila.

Tony Gonzalez sits in front of his locker at the Chiefs’ practice facility, but his mind is wandering toward retirement. Maybe in 10 years, one of the NFL’s legendary tight ends will be pouring a drink for some weary vacationer on a secret stretch of Mexican beach, winking as he pours himself one, too. Maybe he’ll be flipping a lure into the Pacific, trying to hook a big one. Gonzalez always has snagged the big catch.

“I think about it all the time,” he says.

It’ll be on the beach or on a boat that Gonzalez will have time to think. Years have passed, and his football legacy, whatever that ends up being, has been fulfilled. He’ll stand there, swirling a tumbler or waiting for the lure to jump, and discuss how football remembers him.

Today might come up, and if all goes to plan, it’ll be the date when Gonzalez stood at a historic crossroads and cemented his place in football’s elite. He needs 3 yards to break Shannon Sharpe’s record for career receiving yards for a tight end, and Gonzalez should get that on his first or second reception today.

It’ll solidify Gonzalez as one of the all-time greats. But it also moves him past one more milestone and another step closer to a future without football. The fewer achievements Gonzalez has to chase, the less motivation he has to keep getting up early, lifting weights and running through the same tired drills he’s run for a dozen years.

“Yeah,” he says. “You look forward to it.”

There is that one thing, though: a Super Bowl. The Chiefs might not win one before Gonzalez retires. He’s 32, and that’s old in this league. Sure, he’ll hold out another year or two. Maybe three. He’ll hope that the Chiefs’ rebuilding project pays off in time for the one achievement that another legendary tight end says could keep Gonzalez from being remembered as the best ever.

When hope of that goal fades, the beach looks pretty good, even from Gonzalez’s locker.

Gonzalez is back now. His mind is in Kansas City, and his focus is on the Chiefs. He straightens his back and says something about winning, about being committed to the team and doing his part. As difficult as it is, he says he has to think only about the present.

“I’ve got to enjoy this moment,” he says. “If you don’t, you’ll let it fester, and you’ll keep thinking about it. You have to get rid of those thoughts as soon as they come. Bruce Lee was a good example. He said he pictures the thought on a piece of paper, and then he pictures himself burning it up.

“And it goes away.”

• • •

Gonzalez wants to tell you he’s the best tight end ever. He wants to say that, because to do so is to be confident and self-aware, and that’s what he is. He knows himself enough to declare his interest in politics but admits he might have had too much fun in his younger days to ever reach the Senate or the governor’s mansion.

“Not that I wouldn’t make a good one,” he says with a smile, “but I don’t think I’d be allowed to.”

He admits, with a slight wince, that he’s had to work all of his life to become an intelligent man because intelligence, unlike football, never came naturally. But part of that self-awareness has translated into intelligence, because by acknowledging his weaknesses, he’s able to strengthen them. He sets aside time each afternoon to read, upward of 45 minutes plowing through Tolstoy or Gandhi, books about purpose and God and the Rev. Martin Luther King.

So he wants to tell you he’s the best to ever line up at the position. It feels right, and the facts back it up. But he knows how that sounds.

“Am I the best tight end ever? Of course, in my mind, and confidently speaking, yeah,” he says. “But the other answer is: There are some other really good tight ends who have played this game, and I don’t think I could ever answer that question from that standpoint.

“That’d probably be something you’d ask other people.”

One of those other people suggests Gonzalez is among history’s best tight ends. Maybe not the best, but definitely one of them.

Ozzie Newsome is the Baltimore Ravens’ general manager and a 1999 inductee into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He played 13 seasons as an NFL tight end, and he’s watched most of the great ones. He says Gonzalez fits in among the best.

“He’s going to rank right at the top,” Newsome says.

The one thing holding Gonzalez back, Newsome says, is that he might never win a Super Bowl. Sharpe won three of them. Dave Casper won two.

“That enhances everything,” Newsome says.

Newsome says Gonzalez’s resume looks better because he might remain with one team throughout his NFL career. Few players, let alone tight ends, have done that in the free-agency era. Newsome says that narrows the distance between Gonzalez and whoever is history’s best tight end.

“I’m sure he would give up 20 percent of those catches and 20 percent of those yards for a Super Bowl,” says Newsome, who also didn’t win a championship. “That’s how special a Super Bowl is to all of us.

“But to be in an organization that recognized his importance and say, ‘You know what? At the end of the day, I’m going to be a Chief.’ In this day and time — in the salary cap age — to retire with the team that drafted you, that’s huge.”

And whether that’s enough for Gonzalez, it might have to do.

• • •

Gonzalez stops on the line of scrimmage, his arms swaying while he waits on the snap. Four Chiefs quarterbacks are alternating passing to receivers, and Gonzalez is one of their favorite targets.

Gonzalez runs a comeback route. The ball slaps his hands, and he tucks it into his chest. That short route would have gotten him the record last week. A moment later, he runs a quick out, a 5-yard play that the Chiefs have practiced thousands of times since they drafted him in 1997. Gonzalez tucks the ball. That would have gotten him the record, too.

He makes it look easy.

Instead, the Chiefs ran out the clock last Sunday with rushing plays. Gonzalez needed 3 yards to break Sharpe’s record of 10,060 receiving yards. The Chiefs had planned to stop the game for a ceremony. Gonzalez had family in town.

Coach Herm Edwards said this week he was confident he made the right decision in denying Gonzalez the record. The Chiefs had lost 12 games in a row, and they were on the verge of winning one — against the rival Broncos, a division opponent. Gonzalez and his family and the ceremony and the fans, they’d all have to wait.

“I couldn’t do it,” Edwards said this week. “It wouldn’t be right to do it. It wouldn’t be fair to me or the football team. It wasn’t anything against Tony at all. It was just the circumstances you’re in.

“I wasn’t willing to do it.”

Gonzalez and Edwards spoke Monday about the decision, which Gonzalez says he’s still upset about. He discussed his frustration Monday to the media, and the topic overshadowed the Chiefs’ first win in nearly a year.

Gonzalez thinks he was right to air his frustration publicly. He says he would have been cheating himself if he hadn’t.

“There are people out there who are like: ‘He’s selfish for thinking that way,’ ” he says. “They can say records don’t mean anything, and maybe they have a point there. But it’s nice to sit back every once in a while and see that you’ve done something that nobody else has ever done.”

And so it waited. Edwards and Gonzalez had a stalemate; both men said there are no hard feelings. Gonzalez says that he would have done things differently but that he understands why Edwards did not.

Someone last week asked Gonzalez if incidents like last Sunday’s push him closer to retirement. If disappointment and frustration and the possibility that today might represent reaching a last attainable goal — whether that might compel him to settle into the peace of retirement earlier than planned.

If so, he won’t say it.

“You can’t take it for granted,” Gonzalez says. “I bet I’m going to wish one day that, ‘Man, I would give anything to be sitting in front of that locker, putting those pads on again and going out there one more time and playing.’ ”

But Gonzalez has already begun moving past football, dragged there by his daydreams. He bought a chunk of land in Mexico in the offseason, and he’s having a house built. He says it’ll be a few years until it’s completed.

He’s doing more than thinking about retirement. He’s planning. He’s involved in two businesses and might soon become involved in more. He’d like to write scripts for movies or television shows, or join the public-speaking circuit, or maybe coach high school football.

“I understand it’s going to come to an end, so I have to prepare for life after football,” he says. “It would be stupid of me not to.”

After that record is broken, there aren’t many milestones left for Gonzalez. If that Super Bowl never comes, the last milestone could be the most significant one: retirement.

Then we’ll have seen the last of Tony Gonzalez. And what will we say about him? That he was the best tight end to never win a championship? That he was a great player but not the best at his position?

Gonzalez sits in front of his locker and thinks about the questions and the future that might be closer than he’d like to think.

It occurs to him what he’d like out of this, what he’d like people to say when they join him at the bar or the beach or wherever he’ll be in 10 years, long after his days with the Chiefs are finished.

“The thing I want people to say about me, I guess, is he did the best he did with what he had,” he says. “That’s all I can really ever ask for: getting the very best out of me. That’s probably one of the reasons why I always work hard. I don’t want people to ever say that he could’ve gotten more. Or he never reached his potential. I want people to say: ‘He overshot it,’ maybe. ‘That guy really put in everything he could to do it the right way.’

“I’d be OK with that.”

68
Career touchdowns No. 1 among tight ends

838
Career receptions No. 1 among tight ends

10,058
Career receiving yards Needs 3 yards to break record for TEs

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 02:04 AM
Tony is a huge wuss. He comes off as really insecure.

DaneMcCloud
10-05-2008, 02:04 AM
Ted Popsen.

Or Jonathon Hayes.

DaneMcCloud
10-05-2008, 02:05 AM
Tony is a huge wuss. He comes off as really insecure.

He's in serious need of a good, old-fashioned cock punch.

KcMizzou
10-05-2008, 02:06 AM
Best ever? I dunno...

But he's good enough for me.

The whole "best ever" debate is BS. Who cares? Save that for when he's retired.

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 02:09 AM
He's in serious need of a good, old-fashioned cock punch.

Just really whiny, sounds like he think the world owes him something.

I love him as a player and everything but...meh...he doesn't do anything for me as a person.

KcMizzou
10-05-2008, 02:11 AM
Just really whiny, sounds like he think the world owes him something.

I love him as a player and everything but...meh...he doesn't do anything for me as a person.That thing with the record last weekend did kinda rub me the wrong way.

Dude... your team finally won a game after nearly a year... shut the hell up and enjoy it with them.

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 02:13 AM
That thing with the record last weekend did kinda rub me the wrong way.

Dude... your team finally won a game after nearly a year... shut the hell up and enjoy it with them.

He's always been like this. Every offseason it's "this is the best Chiefs team ever," and then in Week 8 he's bitching about something.

KcMizzou
10-05-2008, 02:16 AM
He's always been like this. Every offseason it's "this is the best Chiefs team ever," and then in Week 8 he's bitching about something.I can't really say you're wrong.

I mean, he's a Chief... and a hell of a player... so I want to like him.

But... he's not exactly the first guy on the team I'm choose to have a beer with, if you know what I mean.

DaneMcCloud
10-05-2008, 02:17 AM
He's always been like this. Every offseason it's "this is the best Chiefs team ever," and then in Week 8 he's bitching about something.

It was much better in the 70's. No one but QB's were interviewed.

Kept it simple.

ClevelandBronco
10-05-2008, 02:30 AM
Ozzie Newsome was the greatest tight end ever, IMO, but TG finishes with better numbers.

DaneMcCloud
10-05-2008, 02:33 AM
Ozzie Newsome was the greatest tight end ever, IMO, but TG finishes with better numbers.

Probably so. Could you imagine Ozzie with Fouts?

That would have been sick.

ClevelandBronco
10-05-2008, 02:39 AM
Probably so. Could you imagine Ozzie with Fouts?

That would have been sick.

Holy records, Batman.

Ozzie was playing when both Kevin Mack and Ernest Byner ran for more than 1,000 yards each. It wasn't exactly a pass-oriented offense.

Pasta Giant Meatball
10-05-2008, 08:05 AM
Holy records, Batman.

Ozzie was playing when both Kevin Mack and Ernest Byner ran for more than 1,000 yards each. It wasn't exactly a pass-oriented offense.

...and Herm's offense is?

Tuckdaddy
10-05-2008, 08:09 AM
He's the best ever, plain and simple. How can this even be debateable? No ring? So what? It takes a team to win a ring. He never drops a pass, doesn't miss games. never comes off the field no matter what down meaning he can run block very well and last but not least, he holds all three major records and it won't be by a little it will be by alot. He's done it faster than anyone before him.

The most complete and best TE of all time without question.

InChiefsHell
10-05-2008, 08:24 AM
He's the best ever, plain and simple. How can this even be debateable? No ring? So what? It takes a team to win a ring. He never drops a pass, doesn't miss games. never comes off the field no matter what down meaning he can run block very well and last but not least, he holds all three major records and it won't be by a little it will be by alot. He's done it faster than anyone before him.

The most complete and best TE of all time without question.

Damn right!

All you pussies talking about his personality...would you rather him be a Thannon Tharpe?? The guy has given it all in his career with the Chiefs, and you want to find something to bitch about?

Sometimes (actually most times) I wonder about the sanity of people on this board...you guys will argue about Huard vs. Croyle, weather Tamba can play this position, weather LJ is really back...but the ONE INARGUABLE FACT is that Tony G has never been anything but a work horse and is the best tight end to play the game, and he's frustrated...hell, so am I! That's why I like Tony, I think he reflects the attitude of the fans...always optimistic, but he gets frustrated.

Meh. You freaks...

milkman
10-05-2008, 08:28 AM
Damn right!

All you pussies talking about his personality...would you rather him be a Thannon Tharpe?? The guy has given it all in his career with the Chiefs, and you want to find something to bitch about?

Sometimes (actually most times) I wonder about the sanity of people on this board...you guys will argue about Huard vs. Croyle, weather Tamba can play this position, weather LJ is really back...but the ONE INARGUABLE FACT is that Tony G has never been anything but a work horse and is the best tight end to play the game, and he's frustrated...hell, so am I! That's why I like Tony, I think he reflects the attitude of the fans...always optimistic, but he gets frustrated.

Meh. You freaks...

Shut the fuck up.

I don't fucking care what he's done, there is no such thing as an inarguable best player ever at any position.

It's an opinion.

TEX
10-05-2008, 08:29 AM
Tony is a huge wuss. He comes off as really insecure.

Takes one to know one.

ElGringo
10-05-2008, 08:33 AM
He's the best ever, plain and simple. How can this even be debateable? No ring? So what? It takes a team to win a ring. He never drops a pass, doesn't miss games. never comes off the field no matter what down meaning he can run block very well and last but not least, he holds all three major records and it won't be by a little it will be by alot. He's done it faster than anyone before him.

The most complete and best TE of all time without question.

Not debatable? This has to be a joke. I think he is the best TE of his time, no doubt, better than Shannon Sharpe by a long shot. Now, the TE position has changed over time, and yes, he has been a huge factor in that change. But saying the best ever is not debatable is a joke. I do agree he has to be in the debate, and to most of todays fans should be the best ever, but to fans of past generations I think you would find someone else is the best ever. They would probably just view Tony as a big wide receiver, nothing more nothing less. You would disagree with them, but if he played in that era, he would never have caught a pass, and would be judged only on his blocking. I agree he is great at that, but not the best ever.

Marcellus
10-05-2008, 08:59 AM
The fact is it is hard to answer who the best ever TE is but Tony is arguably the best so to be in the discussion is as good as it will get and what more do you need?

I also think the bashing him is nuts. He has given everything to KC his whole career. He could have easily gone to another team for more or the same $ last time he was a FA but he didn't.

Since DT died, TG has been the face of the franchise. Period. He is also the ony player you could consistantly count on over the years. Rarely, rarely, ever hurt, makes way more big plays than bad ones and gives his all 100% of the time on the field.

If we had more TG's at other positions we would have won some SB by now. Quit YOUR whining. STFU

Marcellus
10-05-2008, 09:04 AM
Tony is a huge wuss. He comes off as really insecure.

Claythan, coming from LJ's biggest supporter, this comment is possibly the most hypocritical statement ever made on CP. (Thats saying something)

You say this but also start the Don't Doubt LJ thread. I love watching LJ run mad but I would take 1/2 a TG over 2 LJ's over their careers. (Talking about on the field, in the locker room, and off the field).

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 09:07 AM
Claythan, coming from LJ's biggest supporter, this comment is possibly the most hypocritical statement ever made on CP. (Thats saying something)

You say this but also start the Don't Doubt LJ thread. I love watching LJ run mad but I would take 1/2 a TG over 2 LJ's over their careers. (Talking about on the field, in the locker room, and off the field).

Larry doesn't whine about superficial shit like Tony G.

Have you ever heard him whine about a record or stats?

When Larry makes a fuss it's for a good goddamn reason. Last year when he bitched about the playcalling he was RIGHT. And so was Tony G, for that matter.

But Tony's sitting here whining in this article going "Oh boo hoo, woe is me, no Super Bowl, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa."

Emo bitch. Maybe if you had showed up in the playoffs at some point you'd have a ring. Do you know what Tony's best playoff game is? FIFTY-FIVE FUCKING YARDS. Some hall of fame tight end he is!

Go and read some more Tolstoy in a pathetic attempt to be "intelligent."

Skip Towne
10-05-2008, 09:08 AM
Larry doesn't whine about superficial shit like Tony G.

Have you ever heard him whine about a record or stats?

Larry does plenty of whining.

JuicesFlowing
10-05-2008, 09:24 AM
I was unaware that Tony has played in 26 less games than Sharpe and has better numbers.

milkman
10-05-2008, 09:28 AM
I was unaware that Tony has played in 26 less games than Sharpe and has better numbers.

I don't put Sharpe in the discussion.

Marcellus
10-05-2008, 09:30 AM
[QUOTE=Claythan;5083012]Larry doesn't whine about superficial shit like Tony G.

Have you ever heard him whine about a record or stats?

When Larry makes a fuss it's for a good goddamn reason. Last year when he bitched about the playcalling he was RIGHT. And so was Tony G, for that matter.

But Tony's sitting here whining in this article going "Oh boo hoo, woe is me, no Super Bowl, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa."

Emo bitch. Maybe if you had showed up in the playoffs at some point you'd have a ring. Do you know what Tony's best playoff game is? FIFTY-FIVE f***ING YARDS. Some hall of fame tight end he is!

Go and read some more Tolstoy in a pathetic attempt to be "intelligent."[/QUOTE

He wines about being phased out of the offense when he was continually running up the ass of his line. (case in point, he was lucky he got his last TD last week, he was running right up the ass of the linemen with a huge hole to his left. He evenually had to go left and fortunatly that hole was still there and runs for the TD. That really wasn't much skill on his part)

He holds out for a new contract then plays like a pussy untilhe got hurt. He was playing like a flat out pussy. Running out of bounds instead of through DB's. Yea you remember.

Have you ever heard of other players not liking TG? Hear it all the time about whiney, sulky, moody, LJ. I like LJ when he is on, he is fun to watch.

TG is rarely not on. Whether the QB or staff is smart enough to get him the ball usually affects his impact more than anything.

When LJ becomes a HOF player he can be moody now and then. TG has earned it to this point.

luv
10-05-2008, 09:31 AM
Larry doesn't whine about superficial shit like Tony G.

Have you ever heard him whine about a record or stats?

When Larry makes a fuss it's for a good goddamn reason. Last year when he bitched about the playcalling he was RIGHT. And so was Tony G, for that matter.

But Tony's sitting here whining in this article going "Oh boo hoo, woe is me, no Super Bowl, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa."

Emo bitch. Maybe if you had showed up in the playoffs at some point you'd have a ring. Do you know what Tony's best playoff game is? FIFTY-FIVE FUCKING YARDS. Some hall of fame tight end he is!

Go and read some more Tolstoy in a pathetic attempt to be "intelligent."
Is the 55 yards due to him dropping the ball, losing yards, or not getting thrown the ball?

Marcellus
10-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Is the 55 yards due to him dropping the ball, losing yards, or not getting thrown the ball?

I can't remember the Chiefs ever trying to get him the ball consistantly and it not work out, or him having a bad case of dropsies except for his 2nd season.

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 09:35 AM
Tony dropped 2 or 3 in the Colts playoff game...like all the other shitbag receivers.

Marcellus
10-05-2008, 09:38 AM
Tony dropped 2 or 3 in the Colts playoff game...like all the other shitbag receivers.

Yea and Priest fumbled on a 70 yard run.

We still never punted so I don't see how a couple drops made a huge diff. Lack of defense was the issue.

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 09:39 AM
Yea and Priest fumbled on a 70 yard run.

We still never punted so I don't see how a couple drops made a huge diff. Lack of defense was the issue.

My whole point is that Tony has never showed up in a playoff game.

Big time receivers do.

luv
10-05-2008, 09:41 AM
My whole point is that Tony has never showed up in a playoff game.

Big time receivers do.

He doesn't have a ring, so you agree with Sharpe when he he says he's the best because he's got "jury".

Marcellus
10-05-2008, 09:48 AM
My whole point is that Tony has never showed up in a playoff game.

Big time receivers do.

Remember he has only had 3 games to play in. He also has 2 TD's in 3 career playoff games.

Trent in 2003 is the only time he played in the postseason with a decent QB and in a decent offense. He had the 55yrds and a TD. We scored 35 points. It was his fault we lost?

Count Zarth
10-05-2008, 10:02 AM
I really don't give a shit about excuses.

JASONSAUTO
10-05-2008, 10:19 AM
you cant fault tg for our past playoff woes, the defense sabatoged them.

JASONSAUTO
10-05-2008, 10:21 AM
i had a discussion about just this subject with milkman a few weeks ago, he says mackey i say Tg, both deserve to be in the discusssion, TG has the far better stats BUT mackey made it all possible.so who would be the best??

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-05-2008, 10:40 AM
I seem to remember him getting pushed out in the 97 playoff game as well. :grr:

StcChief
10-05-2008, 10:42 AM
He's the best ever, plain and simple. How can this even be debateable? No ring? So what? It takes a team to win a ring. He never drops a pass, doesn't miss games. never comes off the field no matter what down meaning he can run block very well and last but not least, he holds all three major records and it won't be by a little it will be by alot. He's done it faster than anyone before him.

The most complete and best TE of all time without question.
QFT. he's been money since he entered the league.

milkman
10-05-2008, 10:46 AM
QFT. he's been money since he entered the league.

That is absolutely not true.

He wasn't all that great as a blocker when he first entered the league, and for his first 3 or 4 seasons, especially his second, he pissed me off constantly with his drops.

Coach
10-05-2008, 10:47 AM
That is absolutely not true.

He wasn't all that great as a blocker when he first entered the league, and for his first 3 or 4 seasons, especially his second, he pissed me off constantly with his drops.

That's true, and while people may dog on Vermeil and the likes, he was right about Gonzo getting better on the run blocking during his tenture as HC of KC.

StcChief
10-05-2008, 11:35 AM
That is absolutely not true.

He wasn't all that great as a blocker when he first entered the league, and for his first 3 or 4 seasons, especially his second, he pissed me off constantly with his drops.YEAH. he did have some "growing pains" in 2nd year, and did all he could to become the complete TE...... now he has all the records and doing it 2 years less than mush mouth THannon THarpe.....

Reaper16
10-05-2008, 12:26 PM
Yeah, he's pretty much the best.

MyChiefConcern
10-05-2008, 12:39 PM
Larry doesn't whine about superficial shit like Tony G.


Emo bitch. Maybe if you had showed up in the playoffs at some point you'd have a ring. Do you know what Tony's best playoff game is? FIFTY-FIVE f***ING YARDS. Some hall of fame tight end he is!

Go and read some more Tolstoy in a pathetic attempt to be "intelligent."

You have got to be shitting me, bro.

InChiefsHell
10-05-2008, 08:10 PM
Shut the f*** up.

I don't f***ing care what he's done, there is no such thing as an inarguable best player ever at any position.

It's an opinion.

Read my post. I did not say that was the inarguable part.

...and no, you shut the fuck up...nlm

InChiefsHell
10-05-2008, 08:12 PM
That is absolutely not true.

He wasn't all that great as a blocker when he first entered the league, and for his first 3 or 4 seasons, especially his second, he pissed me off constantly with his drops.

What the fuck do you people smoke??

Garcia Bronco
10-05-2008, 08:27 PM
Ozzie Newsome was the greatest tight end ever, IMO, but TG finishes with better numbers.

Winslow, Bavaro, Sharpe, Newsome, and TG. Not a bad group.

Pablo
10-05-2008, 08:36 PM
He's most definitely in consideration. And 20-30 years from now he probably still will be mentioned in this same conversation. But I expect Gates to be in the mix as well.

I have no complaints about the man. He wants to win. He does everything he can to win and I've never seen him give up on any play or any situation. That's a lot more than can be said for most players, ever.

cdcox
10-05-2008, 08:49 PM
What the f*** do you people smoke??

Milkman's statements are absolutely correct. Tony did have a ton of drops his second year in the league and he didn't become a good blocker until 3 or 4 years into his career. He developed over the course of his career. No shame in that.

Where does he stand in history? He's a great TE. I think his numbers could have been much better with another team. DV's offense didn't really feature the TE and Herm's offense doesn't feature anybody. His numbers on a team that was passing oriented and had some other targets whould have been astronomical. I can't think of anyone I'd rather have. Good enough for me.