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Taco John
10-13-2008, 01:58 AM
I remember when this headline was some far off tin foil hat thing... And yet, here we are... taking the first slow but steady steps towards world governance.


European leaders agree on taxpayer buyout plan

DOUG SAUNDERS

From Monday's Globe and Mail

E-mail Doug Saunders | Read Bio | Latest Columns
October 12, 2008 at 11:43 PM EDT

London — A massive taxpayer buyout of stakes in banks across Europe was agreed upon last night and is likely to be followed this week across the developed world, a set of pledges that in many countries will result in the highest level of state ownership of the financial sector in modern history.

In Paris last night, major European leaders broadly agreed to follow a plan launched in Britain last week by British Prime Minister Gordon Brown in which governments promised to buy up major stakes in troubled banks, and to guarantee interbank lending, in order to restore confidence in the financial system, restart lending and end the panic that in recent days has brought the international financial system to the brink of collapse.

European leaders pledged at a Paris meeting that they will not allow any major financial institution to fail, and agreed that they will use injections of taxpayer money to provide loan guarantees and to take direct public ownership of banks.

The agreement was reached under a tight deadline, in hopes of stopping the panic selling of shares that erased trillions of dollars in equity last week before European markets open this morning.

U.S. leaders also appeared to be preparing Sunday to adopt the Brown strategy by formulating a plan to buy major ownership stakes in banks.

Monday is a national holiday in the United States, so details may not be known until tomorrow.

The British plan, whose details were released last night, marks the largest taxpayer buyout of the private-sector economy in the country's postwar history. Mr. Brown has pledged $100-billion (£50-billion) to buy major stakes in four of the country's largest banks. That amounts to 4 per cent of the country's annual economy, more than was spent nationalizing companies after the Second World War.

Britain is likely to take majority stakes in the Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC and in HBOS PLC, which owns the Banks of Scotland and the Halifax bank along with several mortgage lenders and insurers. Government officials are likely to be appointed to the boards of both banks. Britain will also likely take large public stakes in Lloyds TSB and Barclays, which until very recently were considered the country's most respected large banks.

That strategy appears to have become a model for economic recovery this weekend. A Paris meeting of leaders of eurozone countries hosted Sunday by French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Mr. Brown (whose country is not part of the euro economy) resulted in no unified plan or formal agreements, and the leaders rejected a plan to establish a Europe-wide rescue fund.

But they did reach an agreement for all eurozone nations to follow a similar path in nationalizing parts of the financial sector under a 13-point plan based on Mr. Brown's actions.

In Washington, a meeting of international finance ministers produced a similar consensus, and many U.S. financial leaders appear willing to propose a state buyout of stakes in major banks, a first in modern U.S. history. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson proposed last week that the government should buy an ownership stake in failing banks, after a proposed $700-billion bailout package failed to restore confidence in the system.

Plans similar to Britain's are being formulated across the developed world Monday.

The German parliament will vote Monday on emergency legislation that would provide €400-billion ($540-billion U.S.) in state funds to restart lending markets and rebuild confidence in the economy, including €100-billion ($135-billion U.S.) for the recapitalization of banks, giving the state a large share in most of the country's banks.

The French cabinet will vote Monday on an emergency bill to recapitalize major banks by buying up shares, although it was not clear how much money would be spent.

Both Italy and Portugal have also launched national bank buyout schemes similar to Britain's. Portugal will provide a €20-billion ($27-billion U.S.) financing line to its banks. Norway has announced $60-billion in liquidity to its banks.

And Australia and New Zealand both announced they would guarantee all bank deposits.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn, head of the International Monetary Fund, said last night that this plan is likely to avert the “meltdown” of the world's monetary system that he had predicted on Saturday and the stock-market crash that would result from such a failure.

“I think that we now have a comprehensive response to the crisis and I think that the market will reflect it,” he told reporters.

The British plan, whose details are likely to be followed by many other countries, would see governments taking stakes in major institutions through purchase of a new category of preferred shares. Current shareholders would lose dividend payments but would have the opportunity to buy the preferred shares.

The banks would be required to make established levels of loans to small businesses and low-income mortgage seekers, and they would have to moderate executive salaries and bonuses.

The Brown plan would also use state funds to ensure liquidity among lenders, especially by underwriting short-term and medium-term lending in order to keep the interbank system – and corporations – solvent.

“People are looking not only to the markets, but to governments,” Mr. Brown told reporters last night. “The purpose is that banks can resume and are able to lend to small businesses and homeowners.”

In its key policy, the European scheme will guarantee interbank lending until the end of 2009, using state guarantees to underwrite senior debt. The plan was agreed Sunday by the 15 European Union countries that use the euro as their currency, plus Britain, which had been invited because of interest in Mr. Brown's approach. The plan is likely to be joined by the 11 other EU member states at a summit in Brussels on Wednesday.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081012.wbankseurope13/BNStory/Business

Taco John
10-13-2008, 02:04 AM
It will start here, but eventually a regulatory body will need to be established to maintain stability across international boundaries. After that, national boundaries and things like elections will be nothing more than checkpoints and quaint cultural markers of the past to make us feel like we still maintain a semblance of nationalistic autonomy.

Jenson71
10-13-2008, 02:11 AM
As I started to read the article I was thinking that wasn't this basically something Europe had been moving towards a more unified banking system since, well, the European Union in 1993? Then I got to this part: "resulted in no unified plan or formal agreements, and the leaders rejected a plan to establish a Europe-wide rescue fund."

Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like.

Then, immediately afterward:

"But they did reach an agreement for all eurozone nations to follow a similar path in nationalizing parts of the financial sector under a 13-point plan based on Mr. Brown's actions."

This must be what you are concerned about, TJ. Now based off this, are we to look down to the path of global government? Because I find it non-threatening.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 02:46 AM
As I started to read the article I was thinking that wasn't this basically something Europe had been moving towards a more unified banking system since, well, the European Union in 1993? Then I got to this part: "resulted in no unified plan or formal agreements, and the leaders rejected a plan to establish a Europe-wide rescue fund."

Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like.

Then, immediately afterward:

"But they did reach an agreement for all eurozone nations to follow a similar path in nationalizing parts of the financial sector under a 13-point plan based on Mr. Brown's actions."

This must be what you are concerned about, TJ. Now based off this, are we to look down to the path of global government? Because I find it non-threatening.


Of course you do. drip, drip, drip, drip... It's all non-threatening. drip, drip, drip, drip. What in the world is there to be concerned about? drip, drip, drip, drip... They're just talking... drip, drip, drip, drip...

Hey wasn't this water ankle high just a second ago? Oh well, I don't find knee high water too threatening anyway... Might as well just shut up and graze in my field.

Don't feel too bad. You're in the same boat as most Americans who are completely befuddled by stuff like this. The leaders say "don't worry, we're going to rescue you," and because the people at large don't have a clue at what it is they're actually looking at, they have no capacity to look at the situation like a chess board and see the board for what it is - and what it's shaping up to be.

My favorite part of your puzzled post is when you read about the European countries talk about nationalizing parts of their economic superstructures and shrugged and said that you find it non-threatening. Cows, when looking down a barrel of a rifle, have no idea what to make of it.

Look, I get it... I'm the wacky Ron Paul believer who, even though I've been posting about this economic turmoil for years while you all were listening to the establishment calm your nerves by telling you the fundamentals of the economy are strong. Why stop to bother yourself with any of the concers we have, when you've got government leaders telling you, once again, to stop paying attention, everything will be alright.

Don't listen to me. Walk into the open embrace of socialism, drip by drip, and marvel at how non-threatening it all is. But someday, and maybe they'll find a bridge over this problem for now, but someday, when the suffering starts - and it will, just remember that there were people who tried to get you to broaden the scope of your oh so wonderful intellects to show you that these drips eventually add up to buckets.

But why bother taking any intellectual curiosity about the greatest financial crisis the world has ever seen by examining the issue from all sides. Afterall, Nicolas Sarkozy says to chill out.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 02:59 AM
As I started to read the article I was thinking that wasn't this basically something Europe had been moving towards a more unified banking system since, well, the European Union in 1993? Then I got to this part: "resulted in no unified plan or formal agreements, and the leaders rejected a plan to establish a Europe-wide rescue fund."

Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like.

Then, immediately afterward:

"But they did reach an agreement for all eurozone nations to follow a similar path in nationalizing parts of the financial sector under a 13-point plan based on Mr. Brown's actions."

This must be what you are concerned about, TJ. Now based off this, are we to look down to the path of global government? Because I find it non-threatening.


I can't just leave it alone... Your train of thought here is mind-boggling to me in it's naivity. It's as though you have absolutely no ability to read between the lines and are blind to the subtext of it all... I mean, read this... It's laughable:

"As I started to read the article I was thinking that wasn't this basically something Europe had been moving towards a more unified banking system since, well, the European Union in 1993? Then I got to this part: "resulted in no unified plan or formal agreements, and the leaders rejected a plan to establish a Europe-wide rescue fund."

It's mind blowing to me that you can sit there and pass off the fact there a faction who has been trying to socialize the european banking system since 1993, and that just for the fact that it didn't go off un-hitched on the first go-around, there's nothing to be concerned about. And then the most brilliant line of all!

"Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like."

ROFL

Are you kidding me!? Just how disconnected from reality are you? Let's test. If there was a faction of Bishops in the church who were crusading to have Mohammad recognized as a saint. On their first attempt, the Church makes moves to cast him in a more favorable light, and each subsequent attempt after that, the Church merely makes incremental moves to continue the path that these bishops started. Would your response be "Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like."? Or would you maybe be concerned at the direction this was going?

You know what? I'm betting it would actually be the former, so long as it happened incrementally, pubically, and slow enough for you to chew on and rationalize.

Jenson71
10-13-2008, 03:00 AM
Well now that you've made such a rational case, not once appealing to hysterics or exaggeration but just facts, I totally buy into it.

I guess our solution now is to yell "Help!" as loud as we can.

Logical
10-13-2008, 03:16 AM
Well now that you've made such a rational case, not once appealing to hysterics or exaggeration but just facts, I totally buy into it.

I guess our solution now is to yell "Help!" as loud as we can.I must admit I found this to be quite witty.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 03:20 AM
Well now that you've made such a rational case, not once appealing to hysterics or exaggeration but just facts, I totally buy into it.

I guess our solution now is to yell "Help!" as loud as we can.



Facts!

AHAHAHAHA! ROFL

You are looking for facts! What for? What use do you have with facts? You don't have the ability to even interpret them for what they are.

Oh, I know - I made the ultimate sin as far as a grand intellectual is concerned: I got emotional while you tried to Dr. Spock the situation and discern through your wondrous intellectual faculties that "there's no hurry, so nothing to worry about."

You would have to actually have an understanding - even a basic one - of the spectrum of economic theory for facts to be useful to you. This is why it all doesn't matter anymore - because people who pat themselves on the back for their wonderful intellects have absolutely no clue about about the economic spectrum. They couldn't critique Keynes from Friedman back to Hayek, and provide any relevant commentary about what is happening today that will absolutely change our lives tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the house is on fire, and I'm out here flapping my arms and yelling "GET OUT OF THE HOUSE! YOU'RE GOING TO GET BURNT," and you're sitting in your top story window saying "Quit with the hysterics! The fire doesn't look like it's in any hurry to spread, and from the looks of this smoke, I'm not even sure if it's a fire! How bad could fire be anyway!?"

Be as witty as you want. But let's not pretend that facts are going to be useful to you in a discussion on economics and what is happening in the world today.

Jenson71
10-13-2008, 03:21 AM
Maybe I should take it as sort of a backhanded compliment. I certainly didn't mean to enrage the goddess of menstruation by asking my simple/stupid but innocent question. I'm sorry I lack the depth of knowledge required to be a socialist/world governmentalist extraordinaire, but perhaps that's what people expect of some 20 year old talking on chiefsplanet at 3:00AM.

HMc
10-13-2008, 03:28 AM
Don't feel too bad. You're in the same boat as most Americans who are completely befuddled by stuff like this. The leaders say "don't worry, we're going to rescue you," and because the people at large don't have a clue at what it is they're actually looking at, they have no capacity to look at the situation like a chess board and see the board for what it is - and what it's shaping up to be.



It's also a little disconcerting when you know that the leaders themselves haven't a clue as to how some of this has even happened, let alone what do do to fix it. Subprime mortgage debt seems to be an issue most of them can grip, presumably on the back of its relative simplicity. Start talking about liquidity, the TED Spread and Credit Default Swaps and you can image what might happen to Palin. McCain is just as bad, saying "I wish interest rates were zero" earlier this year, clearing lacking even a first semester undergraduate level grasp of economics. Obama appears better, though what comforts me more about him is his legal mind, in that he presumably has the capacity to develop at least an intermediate understanding of a complex concept fairly quickly.

Count Alex's Losses
10-13-2008, 03:36 AM
Is Taco John Connor? Or V?

Taco John
10-13-2008, 03:39 AM
I'm sorry I lack the depth of knowledge required to be a socialist/world governmentalist extraordinaire, but perhaps that's what people expect of some 20 year old talking on chiefsplanet at 3:00AM.


Uh, huh... Yeah, you want facts alright. You can tell by the way you watch world government happening in front of our very eyes and still bust out with the archaic "people who believe that world government is a possibility are tin foil hat wearers" mentality... "socialist/world governmentalist extraordinaire." Fine by me. Cast whatever aspersions you want, so long as you also recognize that what is happening now is exactly what we were talking about during the Ron Paul campaign. It's not that we're psychic - it's that there is a science behind it - measurable cause and effect.

Every American should be well versed on the spectrum that exists between individual liberty, and coercive governance (regardless of whether that coersion is despotic, fascist, or socialist in ideological lean). I'm not sure why a 20 year old should be cut any slack on this, considering that you're going to live these changes - and ultimately pass it along to children. Yes, I most certainly expect 20 year olds to look and understand what's happening. You guys are on the front lines right now, and don't even know it.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 03:55 AM
It's also a little disconcerting when you know that the leaders themselves haven't a clue as to how some of this has even happened, let alone what do do to fix it. Subprime mortgage debt seems to be an issue most of them can grip, presumably on the back of its relative simplicity. Start talking about liquidity, the TED Spread and Credit Default Swaps and you can image what might happen to Palin. McCain is just as bad, saying "I wish interest rates were zero" earlier this year, clearing lacking even a first semester undergraduate level grasp of economics. Obama appears better, though what comforts me more about him is his legal mind, in that he presumably has the capacity to develop at least an intermediate understanding of a complex concept fairly quickly.


I feel the same way about Obama vs. McCain, but ultimately, I think they're both pawns in this whole economic crisis. Personally, I think the crisis is much, much bigger than they'll ever let on. I think the real fact of the matter is that fiat currency is made obsolete through the ubiquotous use of the Internet. Suddenly, you don't need to counterfiet dollars any more. You just need to find a way to inject credit into the superstructure - much easier than matching paper, ink, and watermarks. There's absolutely no way to track real money from counterfiet money, and then complicate that situation with the fact that the Fed can punch a button and inject even more cash at will into the system - and does so on a very regular basis.

Suddenly, percpetion is what matters, not the actual truth. Truth is now obsolete, because it can be manufactured through the engineering of perception. What do people think all of these meetings, and bills and late night conferences are about? It's about manufacturing perception. So long as they can say, "we've got a plan to fix it all," they've got a chance to affect perception. I think they'll probably be able to put the brakes on this for awhile. We might see a few rallies. Who knows, maybe they can even get another bubble inflated. And though they'll vote in new regulations and tell us that was the problem all along, the gremlins in the system aren't being removed.

Jenson71
10-13-2008, 03:57 AM
Well golly, mister, thanks for scaring me back on the right track! For a second there, I was close to slipping into World Government Communism!

I just wish all the news sources out there could be as objective, informative and enlightening as your posts on these matters.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 04:03 AM
Well golly, mister, thanks for scaring me back on the right track! For a second there, I was close to slipping into World Government Communism!

I just wish all the news sources out there could be as objective, informative and enlightening as your posts on these matters.



I asked you a question, child...

Let's say there is a faction of Bishops in the church who were crusading to have Mohammad recognized as a saint. On their first attempt, the Church makes moves to cast him in a more favorable light, and each subsequent attempt after that, the Church merely makes incremental moves to continue the path that these bishops started. Would your response be "Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like?" Or would you maybe be concerned at the direction this was going?

(ps. sarcasm is a poor covering for ignorance)

chagrin
10-13-2008, 06:02 AM
Facts!

AHAHAHAHA! ROFL

You are looking for facts! What for? What use do you have with facts? You don't have the ability to even interpret them for what they are.

Oh, I know - I made the ultimate sin as far as a grand intellectual is concerned:

a grand intellectual? My, what a nice compliment for yourself :rolleyes:

chagrin
10-13-2008, 06:04 AM
I asked you a question, child...


Don't discriminate based on his age, it's not what a grand intellectual would do.

Ari Chi3fs
10-13-2008, 07:41 AM
This has been in the works for a long time. The elder powers that be... want to see their life's work in fruition.

A One world government would be great, if the powers that be, weren't so damn corrupt.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-13-2008, 07:44 AM
It's the Pentaverate!!

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TPMS6tGOACo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object><object width="425" height="344">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ctEDHm0OKms&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

bango
10-13-2008, 07:04 PM
It will start here, but eventually a regulatory body will need to be established to maintain stability across international boundaries. After that, national boundaries and things like elections will be nothing more than checkpoints and quaint cultural markers of the past to make us feel like we still maintain a semblance of nationalistic autonomy.

You have pointed out the problem that is on the horizon. It is easy to point out what is wrong. Most of the people on the planet are doing that every single day. I am going to ask you what the solution or what you think that the solution should be. What do we do? What can we do? Is there anything that we can do? Is is too late? I have to doubt that by implimenting the Austrian, Vienna, or Psychological School of Economics can do enough at this point.

Jenson71
10-13-2008, 07:38 PM
Don't discriminate based on his age, it's not what a grand intellectual would do.

He's just being sarcastic towards me. Which seems to be "a poor covering for ignorance" but nevertheless. . .

StcChief
10-13-2008, 07:39 PM
This has been in the works for a long time. The elder powers that be... want to see their life's work in fruition.

A One world government would be great, if the powers that be, weren't so damn corrupt.ah no. Not so great. Violates our constitution and freedom.

banyon
10-13-2008, 07:48 PM
Hey, what do you know? Dripping condescension isn't a good way to persuade people of things. Who would have guessed?

bango
10-13-2008, 08:24 PM
He's just being sarcastic towards me. Which seems to be "a poor covering for ignorance" but nevertheless. . .

Did you do anything to warrant this? Has this happened between the two of you before?

***SPRAYER
10-13-2008, 09:01 PM
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Adept Havelock
10-13-2008, 09:05 PM
It's the Pentaverate!!

<object width="425" height="344">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TPMS6tGOACo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object><object width="425" height="344">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ctEDHm0OKms&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

Heh. Great scene.

bango
10-13-2008, 09:10 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ws4VuaJpl1c&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ws4VuaJpl1c&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Stock footage

MahiMike
10-13-2008, 09:39 PM
Zeitgeist, baby. And you mocked me. tsk. tsk.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 10:54 PM
I asked you a question, child...

Let's say there is a faction of Bishops in the church who were crusading to have Mohammad recognized as a saint. On their first attempt, the Church makes moves to cast him in a more favorable light, and each subsequent attempt after that, the Church merely makes incremental moves to continue the path that these bishops started. Would your response be "Okay, so there's no rush, it seems like?" Or would you maybe be concerned at the direction this was going?

(ps. sarcasm is a poor covering for ignorance)


Just out of curiosity, why is it that you refused to answer the question?

I, of course, have a theory.

Taco John
10-13-2008, 11:01 PM
By the way... America Followed Suit...


U.S. to Buy Stakes in Nation's Largest Banks
Recipients Include Citi, Bank of America, Goldman; Government Pressures All to Accept Money as Part of Broadened Rescue Effort

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. government is expected to take stakes in nine of the nation's top financial institutions as part of a new plan to restore confidence to the battered U.S. banking system, a far-reaching effort that puts the government's guarantee behind the basic plumbing of financial markets.

To kick off Tuesday's expected announcement, the government is set to buy preferred equity stakes in Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Bank of America Corp. -- including the soon-to-be acquired Merrill Lynch -- Citigroup Inc., Wells Fargo & Co., Bank of New York Mellon and State Street Corp., according to people familiar with the matter.

Some of the big banks were unhappy about the government taking equity stakes, but acquiesced under pressure from Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson in a meeting Monday. During the financial crisis, the government has steadily increased its involvement in financial markets, culminating with a move that rivals the breadth of the government's response to the Great Depression. It intertwines the banking sector with the federal government for years to come and gives taxpayers a direct stake in the future of American finance, including any possible losses.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122390023840728367.html

Taco John
10-13-2008, 11:02 PM
America is being swallowed whole before our very eyes.

Guru
10-13-2008, 11:08 PM
America is being swallowed whole before our very eyes.So where is that anti-christ hiding?

CHIEF4EVER
10-13-2008, 11:37 PM
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Logical
10-14-2008, 12:17 AM
He's just being sarcastic towards me. Which seems to be "a poor covering for ignorance" but nevertheless. . .In general why admit a weakness (youth). Other than making you feel honest it serves no real purpose if you have a strong opinion.

Logical
10-14-2008, 12:22 AM
Why do the fear mongers always say a one world government of Communism. Where is this great Communist movement coming from, is it somehow hidden?

CHIEF4EVER
10-14-2008, 12:31 AM
Why do the fear mongers always say a one world government of Communism. Where is this great Communist movement coming from, is it somehow hidden?

I don't know about any 'One World Communist Movement' or even a 'One World Government' but I must confess that the way things are trending are a bit disturbing.

Logical
10-14-2008, 12:36 AM
I don't know about any 'One World Communist Movement' or even a 'One World Government' but I must confess that the way things are trending are a bit disturbing.I think governments centered around continents make a lot of sense. Probably more problematic for Asian areas of the world and Middle areas with the long held rivalries.

CHIEF4EVER
10-14-2008, 12:55 AM
I think governments centered around continents make a lot of sense. Probably more problematic for Asian areas of the world and Middle areas with the long held rivalries.

I dislike the notion of the surrender of our sovereignty. I also disagree with the notion of regional governments. Leaving out the increased odds for centralized despotism, there are also difficulties with meshing cultures that are historically hostile (as you mentioned). In many cases, it is akin to hammering square pegs into round holes for the sake of geographical convenience.

Ari Chi3fs
10-14-2008, 12:56 AM
Once people realize that we are all one consciousness. We are all made up of protons, neutrons and electrons... moving at different rates. We are all one.

But, the govt is corrupt. And it is like modern slavery to them... slave away at your work to make your wage... and pay the tax man the fictional fractional reserve federal reserve notes and work your life for the benefits of the international bankers.

FUCK

Logical
10-14-2008, 01:08 AM
I dislike the notion of the surrender of our sovereignty. I also disagree with the notion of regional governments. Leaving out the increased odds for centralized despotism, there are also difficulties with meshing cultures that are historically hostile (as you mentioned). In many cases, it is akin to hammering square pegs into round holes for the sake of geographical convenience.Except it is not just geograpchical convenience. It is resource allocation convenience. We are lucky Canada and the US are nearly identical, we are being integrated with Mexico in a fashion that is less than desirable. My view is that it would be better done under a compromise approach between our two governments.

Taco John
10-14-2008, 01:57 AM
I think governments centered around continents make a lot of sense. Probably more problematic for Asian areas of the world and Middle areas with the long held rivalries.

I thought you somehow represented "reduced government," and here you are musing that another super-layer of government "makes a lot of sense."

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 07:27 AM
I thought you somehow represented "reduced government," and here you are musing that another super-layer of government "makes a lot of sense."

You noticed?

Mecca
10-14-2008, 07:28 AM
So is this thread about how Europe is the devil and doing anything like they do will kill our country and send it to hell?

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 07:29 AM
Once people realize that we are all one consciousness. We are all made up of protons, neutrons and electrons... moving at different rates. We are all one.
Nope. We aren't one. We have human traits that are similar as part of our race but we all unique and different as are our cultures. I like that.

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 07:30 AM
So is this thread about how Europe is the devil and doing anything like they do will kill our country and send it to hell?

It would kill Americanism, what makes us different and unique. They should copy us.

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 07:39 AM
I dislike the notion of the surrender of our sovereignty. I also disagree with the notion of regional governments. Leaving out the increased odds for centralized despotism, there are also difficulties with meshing cultures that are historically hostile (as you mentioned). In many cases, it is akin to hammering square pegs into round holes for the sake of geographical convenience.

A reason why a World Govt would never work. Just to stay in power or to enforce it's edicts would require absolute power and tyranny to enforce. Laws that reflect the values and culture of a people are easier to enforce. Decentralization is more efficient and workable.

The quest for world power like this is as old as ancient history. Look at what happened to those who tried to set it up or how their nations ended. Fact, is more people have died and suffered at the hands of large central govt structures than from wars. This would be the penultimate version of large centralized power. Very dangerous idea. People never learn though.

Mecca
10-14-2008, 07:39 AM
It would kill Americanism, what makes us different and unique. They should copy us.

I think it's funny how people seem to hate Europe but if you look into it...they do alot of things better than we do...but hey their culture is much different, socially they are so far more advanced than we are as a country.

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 07:48 AM
I think it's funny how people seem to hate Europe but if you look into it...they do alot of things better than we do...but hey their culture is much different, socially they are so far more advanced than we are as a country.

Culture and government are two separate things.

Let's look at govt first.

Europeans don't have a sense of liberty that is as expansive as Americans. They were ruled by monarchy for a very long time. So they like authoritarianism more.

But America was founded on overthrowing monarchy so individuals could have more control over their lives without to much govt controlling things. The people who left Europe were considered misfits by Europeans but great pioneers by Americans who sought the freedom to not conform to group notions.

So we were more individualistic and less trusting of power. Hence our form of govt. They are just not as free as we are. But I don't hate them for it. How'd you get that from that? I never dissed the French for not agreeing to do Iraq either. I like Europeans. I understand they are different. I, however, don't want many of their ideas on govt transplanted here. So some Americans prefer these ideas. Some don't think they do things better regarding govt. I don't.

Culture is entirely another matter. I like how they farm better, buy food fresher, use more natural or low-tech medicine. But they can keep their stinkin' Euro Socialism. Their work ethic sukks too. Our economy comes out of recessions faster for a reason...and it is because we have less socialism.

WilliamTheIrish
10-14-2008, 08:56 AM
I think it's funny how people seem to hate Europe but if you look into it...they do alot of things better than we do...but hey their culture is much different, socially they are so far more advanced than we are as a country.

List examples please.

Be sure not to list how well they exterminated people.

Mecca
10-14-2008, 09:06 AM
List examples please.

Be sure not to list how well they exterminated people.

If you'd like to delve into the past I could simply go.....hey check out slavery, or just tell me about Japanese Americans in 1942.

Taco John
10-14-2008, 10:15 AM
So is this thread about how Europe is the devil and doing anything like they do will kill our country and send it to hell?


No. This is about how countries are nationalizing their banks and will soon be saying that there needs to be a worldwide regulatory commission to bring all of this under one standard of regulation, effectively ending economic soverignty. It's basically about the world taking another step towards economic communism.

RINGLEADER
10-14-2008, 10:18 AM
It will start here, but eventually a regulatory body will need to be established to maintain stability across international boundaries. After that, national boundaries and things like elections will be nothing more than checkpoints and quaint cultural markers of the past to make us feel like we still maintain a semblance of nationalistic autonomy.

Well you're absolutely right that money/economics is one of the more effective ways to absorb/meld societies. Not sure I'm as certain as you are that it will happen but you make an interesting point.

Taco John
10-14-2008, 10:24 AM
Well you're absolutely right that money/economics is one of the more effective ways to absorb/meld societies. Not sure I'm as certain as you are that it will happen but you make an interesting point.


Every major nation is nationalizing their banks in unison, and you're having a hard time believing that it's going to mean anything to us in either the long or short run? Pttft... You might be a conservative of some stripe, but you're clearly not an economic conservative if you can stand there and shrug as you watch this stuff happening. This is like watching a live abortion happening, and shrugging and saying, "eh, that kid looks like he might be ok - hopefully he gets a meal in him soon."

You must be a Republican.

StcChief
10-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Culture and government are two separate things.

Let's look at govt first.

Europeans don't have a sense of liberty that is as expansive as Americans. They were ruled by monarchy for a very long time. So they like authoritarianism more.

But America was founded on overthrowing monarchy so individuals could have more control over their lives without to much govt controlling things. The people who left Europe were considered misfits by Europeans but great pioneers by Americans who sought the freedom to not conform to group notions.

So we were more individualistic and less trusting of power. Hence our form of govt. They are just not as free as we are. But I don't hate them for it. How'd you get that from that? I never dissed the French for not agreeing to do Iraq either. I like Europeans. I understand they are different. I, however, don't want many of their ideas on govt transplanted here. So some Americans prefer these ideas. Some don't think they do things better regarding govt. I don't.

Culture is entirely another matter. I like how they farm better, buy food fresher, use more natural or low-tech medicine. But they can keep their stinkin' Euro Socialism. Their work ethic sukks too. Our economy comes out of recessions faster for a reason...and it is because we have less socialism.

Exactly. most I agree with. The ag / medicine yes.... Keep you socialism and bad work ethic....

The NATO allie with war and France (not so much, they are chicken hearted) I guess losing as many wars they have... caused them to think that way. Why spend a dime, we lose all the time.