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BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 02:14 PM
Interesting Read.


At roughly the same time that the Constitution was being hammered out in Philadelphia, a professor of history at the University of Edinburgh, in Scotland, came to some startling conclusions after studying the rise and fall of democracy in ancient Athens.

“A democracy is always temporary in nature,” wrote Alexander Tyler; “It simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.”

Why did he come to this conclusion? The Scottish professor explained, “A democracy will continue to exist until the time that the voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

“From that moment on, the majority will always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”

I’m leery of historians who use words such as always. Seems to me that human behavior is too flexible and unpredictable to be nailed down with such rigidity.

Yet Tyler goes on, “The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back to bondage.”

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 02:18 PM
The Framers thought the same thing about democracy, including that they become more contentious as they fight over the spoils they get. Which is why America wasn't founded as a democracy despite this repetition.

We are a republic, one that was a new kind which was a mix of other forms of govt. They took the best from other past systems. The longest lasting govt was a Republic. It was called Rome.

Chief Henry
10-14-2008, 02:20 PM
I've read similar items over the years. It appears we are in the complacency to apathy
area in #6.

Complacency is brutal. If all a person desires in life is a bag of Cheetos, 12 pack of Beer and a remote control TV, they don't have to work in Amercia. That is brutal.

StcChief
10-14-2008, 02:22 PM
I've read similar items over the years. It appears we are in the complacency to apathy
area in #6.

Complacency is brutal. If all a person desires in life is a bag of Cheetos, 12 pack of Beer and a remote control TV, they don't have to work in Amercia. That is brutal.QFT plus Video games.

Amnorix
10-14-2008, 02:33 PM
Boy, it sounds SO GOOD.

Too bad it's all a bunch of made up garbage. Tyler did exist, and was a professor of history at Edinburgh. It stops there, however.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Amnorix
10-14-2008, 02:36 PM
The Framers thought the same thing about democracy, including that they become more contentious as they fight over the spoils they get. Which is why America wasn't founded as a democracy despite this repetition.

We are a republic, one that was a new kind which was a mix of other forms of govt. They took the best from other past systems. The longest lasting govt was a Republic. It was called Rome.


Why doesn't anyone check facts around here?

The Roman Republic was the phase of the ancient Roman civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) characterized by a republican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic) form of government; a period which began with the overthrow of the Roman monarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Kingdom), c. 510 BC, and lasted over 450 years until its subversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion_(politics)), through a series of civil wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republican_civil_wars), into the Principate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principate) form of government and the Imperial period.


I hardly need mention that some monarchial forms of government have lasted WELL over 450 years in such countries as England, Russia, France, China and Japan.


The Chrysanthemum throne is the oldest monarchy in the world. It is said that the Empire of Japan was founded in 660BC by the Emperor Jimmu Tenno and his descendents continue to reign today; the current Emperor Akhito (Heisei Tenno) who is the direct 125th descendant of Jimmu. Despite the fact that there has been eight Empresses, under Japanese Imperial law (promulgated by the Imperial Household Agency and the Privy Council) woman cannot reign as sovereign.

http://www.japan-101.com/government/chrysanthemum_throne.htm

Saulbadguy
10-14-2008, 02:38 PM
BIG_DADDY

Stopped reading at that point.

DaneMcCloud
10-14-2008, 02:38 PM
Why doesn't anyone check facts around here?




I hardly need mention that some monarchial forms of government have lasted WELL over 450 years in such countries as England, Russia, France, China and Japan.

Because then, the forum would be empty.

DaneMcCloud
10-14-2008, 02:39 PM
I've read similar items over the years. It appears we are in the complacency to apathy
area in #6.

Complacency is brutal. If all a person desires in life is a bag of Cheetos, 12 pack of Beer and a remote control TV, they don't have to work in Amercia. That is brutal.

Speak for yourself there, Hank.

And there's no better place to be able to live on nothing than Iowa.

BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 02:44 PM
Boy, it sounds SO GOOD.

Too bad it's all a bunch of made up garbage. Tyler did exist, and was a professor of history at Edinburgh. It stops there, however.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

I don't know if it is real or not but all the parts they call garbage were not even in what I read or posted here. When it comes to the quote I posted they say it is very likely ficticious which is just another way of saying they have no idea.

Amnorix
10-14-2008, 02:47 PM
I don't know if it is real or not but all the parts they call garbage were not even in what I read or posted here. When it comes to the quote I posted they say it is very likely ficticious which is just another way of saying they have no idea.

Very likely fake = "no idea"? Funny, I thought it meant that it was very likely to be fake.

I also note that since nobody can seemingly ACTUALLY FIND the quote, it seems to me that, you know, someone probably made it up. :shrug:

BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 02:48 PM
BIG_DADDY

Stopped reading at that point.

No, what I read didn't even have that in it and I only posted what I found interesting.

Saulbadguy
10-14-2008, 02:49 PM
No, what I read didn't even have that in it and I only posted what I found interesting.

Not the reaction I was expecting.

BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 02:50 PM
Very likely fake = "no idea"? Funny, I thought it meant that it was very likely to be fake.

I also note that since nobody can seemingly ACTUALLY FIND the quote, it seems to me that, you know, someone probably made it up. :shrug:

What it means is they don't know. What difference does it make who said it anyway?

It's not a big deal. I am only staying in this country while the P's are still around anyway.

Amnorix
10-14-2008, 02:52 PM
What it means is they don't know. What difference does it make who said it anyway?

errr...because if a historian making a serious study of the reasons the Athenian democracy fell apart said it, it's a little more important than if Joe SmartAss swigging Bud in his basement came up with something pithy.

It's not a big deal. I am only staying in this country while the P's are still around anyway.

P's?

banyon
10-14-2008, 02:54 PM
So, I would guess English, French, Italian, and Spanish citizens would be surprised to learn that they are suddenly in bondage.

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 02:55 PM
I hardly need mention that some monarchial forms of government have lasted WELL over 450 years in such countries as England, Russia, France, China and Japan.
Continuously?
I don't study Asian govt. I meant the west and I thought it was Rome.
So I'd like to see your facts on which monarchys in the west survived longer than Rome and continuously. You didn't say. You said countries.

Then I'll correct by saying Rome was ONE of the longest.

banyon
10-14-2008, 02:57 PM
Why doesn't anyone check facts around here?




I hardly need mention that some monarchial forms of government have lasted WELL over 450 years in such countries as England, Russia, France, China and Japan.



http://www.japan-101.com/government/chrysanthemum_throne.htm

Actually, she had the right form of government, but the wrong country.

I think if you substitute "San Marino" for "Rome" then it would be correct. Of course having an orderly government over an area the size of the Turner Sports Complex probably doesn't sound as impressive.

BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 02:58 PM
errr...because if a historian making a serious study of the reasons the Athenian democracy fell apart said it, it's a little more important than if Joe SmartAss swigging Bud in his basement came up with something pithy.



P's?

Parents. I want my son to spend as much time as he can with them while they are still around.

Ben Bova was supposed to be they guy who is quoting the historian.

www.benbova.com

Link to what I read


http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2006/oct/01/ben_bova_how_long_will_our_democracy_continue_thri/

Logical
10-14-2008, 03:00 PM
Boy, it sounds SO GOOD.

Too bad it's all a bunch of made up garbage. Tyler did exist, and was a professor of history at Edinburgh. It stops there, however.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.aspHard to believe that such a great degree of prescience did not exist.

Amnorix
10-14-2008, 03:01 PM
Continuously?
I don't study Asian govt. I meant the west and I thought it was Rome.
So I'd like to see your facts on which monarchys in the west survived longer than Rome and continuously. You didn't say. You said countries.

Then I'll correct by saying Rome was ONE of the longest.

Actually, I know Japan and England had monarchy as the basic form of government for over 450 years without any difficulty. Japan's is (at least supposedly) one unbroken family chain. England had various minor interrupts and family changes, but the basic form of monarchy is about 1200 years old now.

France probably went nearly 1,000 years or thereabouts.

Russia I am not sure about. The process of consolidating the Russias took a long time.

Heck, if you want to count from the shifting of power from Rome, the Byzantine Empire went for nearly 1100 years, from 330 AD to 1453. THAT is certainly an inarguable Monarchy.

Obviously, within these countries, the power of the monarchy waxed and waned at different times. The size of the country was also frequently in flux. But the premise remains.

DaneMcCloud
10-14-2008, 03:02 PM
So, I would guess English, French, Italian, and Spanish citizens would be surprised to learn that they are suddenly in bondage.

Do you have pics?

:evil:

Amnorix
10-14-2008, 03:03 PM
Parents. I want my son to spend as much time as he can with them while they are still around.

Ben Bova was supposed to be they guy who is quoting the historian.

www.benbova.com (http://www.benbova.com)

Link to what I read


http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2006/oct/01/ben_bova_how_long_will_our_democracy_continue_thri/

Fair enough. Then it's Mr. Bova, and not you, that should do a better job of fact-checking.

BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 03:14 PM
Fair enough. Then it's Mr. Bova, and not you, that should do a better job of fact-checking.

Whatever. Snopes never even proved what Mr. Bova wrote wasn't real only the BS that somebody else cut and pasted underneath it.

BucEyedPea
10-14-2008, 03:14 PM
Actually, I know Japan and England had monarchy as the basic form of government for over 450 years without any difficulty. Japan's is (at least supposedly) one unbroken family chain. England had various minor interrupts and family changes, but the basic form of monarchy is about 1200 years old now.

France probably went nearly 1,000 years or thereabouts.

Russia I am not sure about. The process of consolidating the Russias took a long time.

Heck, if you want to count from the shifting of power from Rome, the Byzantine Empire went for nearly 1100 years, from 330 AD to 1453. THAT is certainly an inarguable Monarchy.

Obviously, within these countries, the power of the monarchy waxed and waned at different times. The size of the country was also frequently in flux. But the premise remains.

Not sure about France.There were many kingdoms. There was a loss of power after 1700s for monarchies so it wasn't the whole govt anymore. In England Parliament ran the govt for 4 years then Cromwell for 5. That may be a short period in the larger time span but that was big interruption in other ways. Still lasted a long time.

jidar
10-14-2008, 03:23 PM
Whatever. Snopes never even proved what Mr. Bova wrote wasn't real only the BS that somebody else cut and pasted underneath it.

No but you proved it was stupid when you endorsed it.

BIG_DADDY
10-14-2008, 03:36 PM
No but you proved it was stupid when you endorsed it.

I just posted it for discussion, I never endorsed it. As far as saying really stupid shit I think that's your area of expertise. I wouldn't want to step on your toes.

Chief Henry
10-14-2008, 04:02 PM
Speak for yourself there, Hank.

And there's no better place to be able to live on nothing than Iowa.

I see complacency daily and I mean daily.

DaneMcCloud
10-14-2008, 04:34 PM
I see complacency daily and I mean daily.

I'm not surprised.

OTOH, I see hundreds of Mexicans at Home Depot lining up for work everyday in Hollywood. I see thousands of Mexicans across the Southland doing menial work that most people wouldn't even touch.

It's a weird thing. I used to see complacency and laziness in Kansas & Missouri as well.

I had a friend that managed a parking lot re-surfacing company and would offer homeless people or people with "I need food" signs $12 an hour to sweep, clean and paint parking lots.

Everyone, and I mean everyone of those people said NO.