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ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 04:36 PM
The Constitution of the United States:

"We the people"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


TJ -- what are "the people"? Functionally, it's society -- it's all the people, both individually and collectively.

Yes, "We the People..." were given the gift of the Constitution by men far more intelligent than we are.

But I disagree to this extent: The Bill of Rights concerns itself almost exclusively with individual rights.

Those amendments are really not about collective rights, IMO.

Jenson71
10-17-2008, 04:37 PM
What we really need in this country is the European/German styled tracking system in our schools; by age 12-13....kids are put on a work track, a vocational/technical track, or a college track. I'd be fully supportive of ensuring great flexibility and provisions for "changing tracks" if performance and desire dictates--but not all kids are cut out for college. And an one-sized-fits-all approach to public education is dragging the whole system down--in a big, big way. This reform alone would "fix" so many problems, it's mind-boggling.

Oh what a new idea. We had this in America. For a long time. I can't believe you don't know this. We changed this because we saw so many problems in it.

Yes - it turns out a one size fits all approach does work for pre-University education. Every student should be taught the same school education. Every student should be taught math, natural science, language, literature, and social science.

Don't put kids on tracks. What tracks are there in such a globalized, fast paced, ever-changing world? But don't get too big for students. Cut all electives. We must perfect the basics. Quality, not quanitity should be our focus. Every student should have a quality education that promotes future, lifelong learning and sets them on path of their choice, not others, to pursue their happiness.

We must protect public schools. It is essential for democracy to have quality public schools. Good democracy and good education are inseparable.

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 04:38 PM
If we can afford 700 billion to bail out Wall Street we can afford millions to provide vouchers.

You'd better do the math. It's a bigger number than you may imagine. Millions might not make it.

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 04:40 PM
Every student should have a quality education that promotes future, lifelong learning.

That has NEVER been more true than it is now.

But not for every student.

Jenson71
10-17-2008, 04:44 PM
That has NEVER been more true than it is now.

But not for every student.

The only children who should not have a part of this are those with mental handicaps that require special education, and those with discplinary problems that create distractions for students who want to learn. I have not yet devised a plan for the latter, except being pulled out of the school and having to be put through severe military basic training for a certain amount of time.

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 04:48 PM
The only children who should not have a part of this are those with mental handicaps that require special education, and those with discplinary problems that create distractions for students who want to learn. I have not yet devised a plan for the latter, except being pulled out of the school and having to be put through severe military basic training for a certain amount of time.

Military training works for some.

For others, there's something like this:

http://www.coloradoboysranch.org/cbrweb/site/

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 04:52 PM
These kids are at the last stop before prison.

They learn about the intrinsic value of life by getting very specialized counseling, taking care of horses and generally working the ranch while they complete their schooling.

I've done some work for them over the years.

BIG_DADDY
10-17-2008, 04:55 PM
Military training works for some.

For others, there's something like this:

http://www.coloradoboysranch.org/cbrweb/site/

Wow look at that, they still allow dogs on ranches in Colorado.

Taco John
10-17-2008, 04:57 PM
You're absolutely correct. "Society" has no Constitutionally defined rights.

But society exists, and I agree with Amnorix that it has interests.

One of those interests is educating youth rather than imprisoning or subsidizing them later.


I understand that people don't have faith in their fellows to make the best decisions for themselves. It's a common liberal argument we see when unions are brought up and people recognize that they'll lose their jobs if they unionize, so they vote against unions. The liberal cry is "these people are voting against their own best interests." Which is not true. They're voting to keep their jobs.

I believe that compulsory education for students who don't want to be there hurts society, and especially hurts individuals. But you're right to the extent that we DO live in a socialist society (whether people want to admit this or not, we do), and thus we would be on the hook for subsidizing them later through such things as welfare, minimum wage, and etc.

Personally, I have faith that a strong majority of Americans will do what they perceive to be in their own best interest, which is why the current system is a failure. Under my program, I introduce a change in their "best interest" priorities. I make it in the parents best interest to get involved with their student, rather than just trusting the state to do it all. I make it in the students best interest to choose to participate in their education, because if they don't, there's nothing keeping them involved in school.

But this isn't possible in a socialist country where the lowest common denominator gets rewarded for being the lowest common denominator. Thus, it becomes in the best interest of a poor kid to drop out because he can make $8 dollars an hour at McDonalds in our current sytstem, and that's more money than they've ever seen in their lives. It becomes in the best interest of a parent to "give up on their kid" by putting them on a bus and leaving their education to the state.

I'm not of the opinion that more government is what is best for society, and especially the education system. It's my believe that the answers lie in reduced government. People will step up if you give them the opportunity to. That's just human nature.

RJ
10-17-2008, 04:59 PM
Wow look at that, they still allow dogs on ranches in Colorado.


There are States that don't allow dogs on ranches?

Taco John
10-17-2008, 04:59 PM
We must protect public schools. It is essential for democracy to have quality public schools. Good democracy and good education are inseparable.



You're right about that last line, but that's why I want to get rid of public schools.

BIG_DADDY
10-17-2008, 05:00 PM
There are States that don't allow dogs on ranches?

Just a little sarcasm being sent out to dog killing country.

BIG_DADDY
10-17-2008, 05:01 PM
You're right about that last line, but that's why I want to get rid of public schools.

Amen

jidar
10-17-2008, 05:03 PM
If we can afford 700 billion to bail out Wall Street we can afford millions to provide vouchers.

I don't believe it's measured in millions unless you mean thousands of millions.

Jenson71
10-17-2008, 05:07 PM
You're right about that last line, but that's why I want to get rid of public schools.

Even Milton Friedman wrote of the legitimacy of a public school system. He recognized that we all have a stake in eachother. The best education for the best is the best education for all. The public school system needs reform. The public school system must be protected at a small, local level, but the public school system should not be abandoned.

Edit - changed Milton Friedman "believed" to what is now seen.

Edit - The Friedman ancedote is wrong.

Taco John
10-17-2008, 05:09 PM
Even Milton Friedman believed in a public school system. He recognized that we all have a stake in eachother. The best education for the best is the best education for all. The public school system needs reform. The public school system must be protected at a small, local level, but the public school system should not be abandoned.



Milton Friedman is going to be suprised to find this out (http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-023.html).

BIG_DADDY
10-17-2008, 05:10 PM
Milton Friedman is going to be suprised to find this out (http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-023.html).

LMAO

Jenson71
10-17-2008, 05:17 PM
Yeah, even with my edit before your post, of which I wrote he thought it was legitimate, I was wrong. I was thinking of this part in Capitalism and Freedom:

Parity price support programs for agriculture.
Tariffs on imports or restrictions on exports, such as current oil import quotas, sugar quotas, etc.
Governmental control of output, such as through the farm program, or through prorationing of oil as is done by the Texas Railroad Commission.
Rent control, such as is still practiced in New York, or more general price and wage controls such as were imposed during and just after World War II!
Legal minimum wage rates, or legal maximum prices, such as the legal maximum of zero on the rate of interest that can be paid on demand deposits by commercial banks, or the legally fixed maximum rates that can be paid on savings and time deposits.
Detailed regulation of industries, such as the regulation of transportation by the Interstate Commerce Commission. This had some justification on technical monopoly grounds when initially introduced for railroads; it has none now for any means of transport. Another example is detailed regulation of banking.
A similar example, but one which deserves special mention because of its implicit censorship and violation of free speech, is the control of radio and television by the Federal Communications Commission.
Present social security programs, especially the old-age and retirement programs compelling people in effect (a) to spend a specified fraction of their income on the purchase of retirement annuity, (b) to buy the annuity from a publicly operated enterprise.
Licensure provisions in various cities and states which restrict particular enterprises or occupations or professions to people who have a license, where the license is more than a receipt for a tax which anyone who wishes to enter the activity may pay.
So-called "public-housing" and the host of other subsidy programs directed at fostering residential construction such as F.H.A. and V.A. guarantee of mortgage, and the like.
Conscription to man the military services~in" peacetime. The appropriate free market arrangement is volunteer military forces; which is to say, hiring men to serve. There is no justification for not paying whatever price is necessary to attract the required number of men. Present arrangements are inequitable and arbitrary, seriously interfere with the freedom of young men to shape their lives, and probably are even more costly than the market alternative. (Universal military training to provide a reserve for war time is a different problem and may be justified on liberal grounds.)
National parks, as noted above.
The legal prohibition on the carrying of mail for profit.
Publicly owned and operated toll roads, as noted above.

But education is not one of them. I'll be more careful next time.

My argument remains the same, despite my support being wrong. Friedman was a hack anyway, right. ;)

BIG_DADDY
10-17-2008, 05:20 PM
I was wrong. .


Get the fuck out of here. LMAO

Have a good weekend youngster.

Jenson71
10-17-2008, 05:21 PM
What can I say? I'm only 99% perfect.

Amnorix
10-17-2008, 05:52 PM
:spock:

News to me that I made this argument.

Actually forget all that society business -- you have a logic problem.

You've arbitrarily drawn the line at 13, whereas I drew it at 16 or thereabouts.

There's no more logic to 13 than 12, or 10, or at all, if you say that society has no interest in educating its children. To be logically consistent, you have little choice but to say that parents can choose not to educate their children AT ALL.

Taco John
10-17-2008, 06:01 PM
Actually forget all that society business -- you have a logic problem.

You've arbitrarily drawn the line at 13, whereas I drew it at 16 or thereabouts.

There's no more logic to 13 than 12, or 10, or at all, if you say that society has no interest in educating its children. To be logically consistent, you have little choice but to say that parents can choose not to educate their children AT ALL.


My line wasn't arbitrary at all. 13 is the age when kids are introduced to secondary education. I didn't say "society has no interest in educating it's children." That's your breathless liberal projection. Seems you're the one with the logic problem. I get it, though. People that don't agree with your world view are bat shit crazy in your mind. From your perspective, my entire goal is to have a civilization of people who can't read and write, with living standards that rival a third world country. Of course, your absolutely wrong. My goal is to raise the standard of living, and improve society by fundamentally improving the decision-making power of its individuals.

I could see where you'd have a great point if I had actually made the case that we don't have an interest in educating our children. But the case I was actually making is that we have the RESPONSIBLITY to provide the best education for our children possible.

Taco John
10-17-2008, 06:03 PM
For the record, there is nothing wrong with my logic at all...

If the student wants an education - the student chooses to go to school, thus kids in school are there because they want to learn as opposed to being forced there against their will to burden the system.

If the student doesn't want an education - the student chooses not to go to school.

Where's the logic problem?

Taco John
10-17-2008, 06:08 PM
Oh, and for the record, NOBODY in this thread - not one single detractor to my plan - has given a single reason why my idea wouldn't improve the quality of our school system, as is. Of course, we all know it would. It only stands to reason that if you get rid of distractions, and fill the seats up with kids who are committed to being there (whether it be for genuine reasons or because their parents are compelling them to go), that the environment for learning would improve.

The problem is, people might make decisions that you all don't agree with. Your problem is that you lose the power to force people to make decisions that you think are best for them.

Fine then. Keep your hopelessly deficient public school system, and give me my tax credit. Let me opt out while I try to put my kid in a better situation.

Logical
10-17-2008, 07:10 PM
I don't believe it's measured in millions unless you mean thousands of millions.Perhaps, I don't think a voucher for more than 10K per student will be provided (JMHO). A private school education easily exceeds 20K per semester so there will not be many able to take advantage of the voucher without extreme sacrifice. Some will do it but my doubt it is many.

tiptap
10-17-2008, 07:34 PM
Class size. Control of class size and bettor pay will go far. One additional help. Make some required connection between an employer and the teaching institution. In other words insist upon some considered recommendation from a teacher or counselor for people to get a job out of school. This will help both employers and school systems to communicate about needs that both groups are concerned with.

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 07:43 PM
Perhaps, I don't think a voucher for more than 10K per student will be provided (JMHO). A private school education easily exceeds 20K per semester so there will not be many able to take advantage of the voucher without extreme sacrifice. Some will do it but my doubt it is many.

Oh, lord, CRONUS. Where did you get that ridiculous 20k figure?

I mean, sure. Maybe if you send your 7th grader to Princeton.

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 07:47 PM
Class size. Control of class size and bettor pay will go far. One additional help. Make some required connection between an employer and the teaching institution. In other words insist upon some considered recommendation from a teacher or counselor for people to get a job out of school. This will help both employers and school systems to communicate about needs that both groups are concerned with.

Better pay for science and math. Lesser pay for history and English.

And freaking art and music teachers can get by with nothing but free meals from the cafeteria.

RJ
10-17-2008, 08:11 PM
Oh, lord, CRONUS. Where did you get that ridiculous 20k figure?

I mean, sure. Maybe if you send your 7th grader to Princeton.


There are some high schools here that are more than that. One is about $40K. We know a family whose son went there. He's now at MIT. The best Catholic school in town is about $11K. Most are somewhere between the two.


They all offer scholarship opportunities. We'll be working hard in that direction.

K-8 schools are considerably less expensive, though I do know of one that runs about $15K. No surprise, it's a feeder school to the $40K high school.

ClevelandBronco
10-17-2008, 08:16 PM
There are some high schools here that are more than that. One is about $40K. We know a family whose son went there. He's now at MIT. The best Catholic school in town is about $11K. Most are somewhere between the two.


They all offer scholarship opportunities. We'll be working hard in that direction.

K-8 schools are considerably less expensive, though I do know of one that runs about $15K. No surprise, it's a feeder school to the $40K high school.

You're not trying to defend CRONUS's statement that a private school education runs $20k a semester, are you?

RJ
10-17-2008, 08:21 PM
You're not trying to defend CRONUS's statement that a private school education runs $20k a semester, are you?


Oops, didn't see "semester".

Cronus, you are obviously an elitist. Except at that $40K school I mentioned.

Course, Cronus lives in California, where 1500 s/f houses sell for a half million bucks. So maybe in his world it is true.

irishjayhawk
10-19-2008, 08:01 PM
Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while and tonight I'll try to do some reading on it but here's the problem I see.

Every parent of a school age child gets a voucher for X - I assume everyone's voucher is the same - and those parents can then take those vouchers to the school of their choice as a form of payment. I assume the voucher wouldn't cover the full cost of most private schools and the parents would make up the difference. Or perhaps they could take the vouchers to other public schools....perhaps schools out of their district?

So then the other members of the community who don't have children but are paying the same taxes decide that they would also like a credit for "their" money, maybe in the form of Target gift cards. But of course they are told that it's not the same thing, that the education of children is good for society and we all have to pay our share. Fine, I agree with that.

But then there are parents who enroll their kids in religious schools. So the folks with no children who didn't get the Target gift cards they wanted have a gripe. These people are sending their kids to the local Jehovah's Witness school where they're spending about 6 hours a day reading the Bible and learning the art of faith healing and rightfully do not wish their tax dollars to go to that. A valid point.

So the government steps in and decides that they'll have to make sure that all schools receiving vouchers have to meet federal, state and local standardss. Meaning that, of course, you're right back where you started from with public schools except worse, cause now the private schools will have the same problems. After which, of course, the private schools will probably say "F U, keep your damn vouchers" and go back to what they were doing before and plenty of parents will gladly pay them for the service.

Somebody tell me where or why I'm wrong.

After reading through the really good discussion I missed while on a trip, I must say this post swayed me slightly.

At first, I couldn't see any reason why parents couldn't get a voucher. Admittedly, however, I was viewing a voucher more as a tax credit than a must-use-on-education check.

Your argument definitely made me rethink this.

Vouchers would do me no good where I live. That being said, I wouldn't be afraid to send my kids to any school that's around me. There's benefits to living in pro-America America.

I agree. Except I don't get the last statement.



I'm fine with this. Makes perfect sense.

There is a HUGE disconnect in this country between what schools put out, and what the economy and businesses need. MASSIVE disconnect.

QFT

I think most of that has to do with three main things: academic inflation, funding (public schools), and the tenure system.

Oh, and for the record, NOBODY in this thread - not one single detractor to my plan - has given a single reason why my idea wouldn't improve the quality of our school system, as is. Of course, we all know it would. It only stands to reason that if you get rid of distractions, and fill the seats up with kids who are committed to being there (whether it be for genuine reasons or because their parents are compelling them to go), that the environment for learning would improve.

The problem is, people might make decisions that you all don't agree with. Your problem is that you lose the power to force people to make decisions that you think are best for them.

Fine then. Keep your hopelessly deficient public school system, and give me my tax credit. Let me opt out while I try to put my kid in a better situation.

I find your position on vouchers to be more of a completely redo education system stance than a voucher's stance.

jidar
10-19-2008, 08:17 PM
Fine then. Keep your hopelessly deficient public school system, and give me my tax credit. Let me opt out while I try to put my kid in a better situation.

Nearly everything you've said is beside the point of school vouchers.
Yes reform needs to happen, but reform doesn't require changing the funding style.

ClevelandBronco
10-19-2008, 08:47 PM
Nearly everything you've said is beside the point of school vouchers.
Yes reform needs to happen, but reform doesn't require changing the funding style.

Wrong.

It allows him to leave without as much of a penalty if reform doesn't happen.

Taco John
10-19-2008, 10:00 PM
Wrong.

It allows him to leave without as much of a penalty if reform doesn't happen.


Nobody wants to look at this problem from the individuals perspective. They want a Utopian "one-size-fits-all" solution that "leaves no child behind." Instead, they get a "teach to the lowest common denominator" system in which the idea of "leave no child behind" means everyone gets left behind. Now, I recognize that to be a bit of an exaggeration -- but not much of one.

If we want to have the best education system in the world, we have to start looking at it from the perspective of the individual student - at the expense of what is supposedly best for society. And I'm serious about "supposedly," because I believe that my ideas pull society out of the ditch that it's currently in and give people a new perspective and a new opportunity to succeed.

When I talk about privatized schooling, I'm not talking about the type of schooling that we are all familiar with. I'm talking about real, genuine innovation in learning that we're not going to see from a socialist system. The school system I envision looks very little to what we are familiar with. It's more specialized - cost effective - and centered around the student rather than some curriculum. And it's 100% more responsive to the parents than the current system is.

I've long considered going back to school for a Ph.D. in education so that I could found the type of school that I envision. It would be tough, given how entrenched I am now where I'm at.

ClevelandBronco
10-19-2008, 11:19 PM
Nobody wants to look at this problem from the individuals perspective. They want a Utopian "one-size-fits-all" solution that "leaves no child behind." Instead, they get a "teach to the lowest common denominator" system in which the idea of "leave no child behind" means everyone gets left behind. Now, I recognize that to be a bit of an exaggeration -- but not much of one.

If we want to have the best education system in the world, we have to start looking at it from the perspective of the individual student - at the expense of what is supposedly best for society. And I'm serious about "supposedly," because I believe that my ideas pull society out of the ditch that it's currently in and give people a new perspective and a new opportunity to succeed.

When I talk about privatized schooling, I'm not talking about the type of schooling that we are all familiar with. I'm talking about real, genuine innovation in learning that we're not going to see from a socialist system. The school system I envision looks very little to what we are familiar with. It's more specialized - cost effective - and centered around the student rather than some curriculum. And it's 100% more responsive to the parents than the current system is.

I've long considered going back to school for a Ph.D. in education so that I could found the type of school that I envision. It would be tough, given how entrenched I am now where I'm at.

I'd encourage you to found that type of school if your family can spare the income and time it would cost them in the short term.

I don't think our government (largely because of the influence of the teachers' unions) nor our citizens will support a widespread reconfiguration of our existing public education system.

We will be the poorer for that. Anyone who can find a way to lob grenades at the entrenched system is doing noble work, IMO.

Mr. Kotter
10-19-2008, 11:29 PM
I'd encourage you to found that type of school if your family can spare the income and time it would cost them in the short term.

I don't think our government (largely because of the influence of the teachers' unions) nor our citizens will support a widespread reconfiguration of our existing public education system.

We will be the poorer for that. Anyone who can find a way to lob grenades at the entrenched system is doing noble work, IMO.

You know what?

Most public schools in this country are pretty decent; many are actually very good.

Why is it rational to insist on judging all public schools by the failures of large urban area public schools?

:shrug:

ClevelandBronco
10-19-2008, 11:39 PM
You know what?

Most public schools in this country are pretty decent; many are actually very good.

Why is it rational to insist on judging all public schools by the failures of large urban area public schools?

:shrug:

It's not rational to insist on judging all public schools by the failures of large urban area public schools.

Is it rational to insist on judging failing schools because they're failing?

Mr. Kotter
10-19-2008, 11:47 PM
....

Is it rational to insist on judging failing schools because they're failing?

Sure it would be....especially if the assessments and criteria for judgements were valid; I mean, we should compare apples to apples right?

Let's force private schools to take in the same clientele as public schools (special education students, English as a second language students, immigrants, and behaviorally challenged kids---even give the private schools generous vouchers and tax subsidies to support their attempts to educate such children, with no strings attached other than educating such kids on the same basis as public schools do)....

After we've done that for a few years, then let us compare test scores; and then let's see who is REALLY doing a better job....when we compare apples to apples, rather than public schools who have to take everyone, to private schools who get to cherry-pick students by "entrance requirements" or financial advantage of parents.....

I'd like the chances of most public schools in the country (though not large urban districts, sadly) to compete on that playing field.

:)

Taco John
10-19-2008, 11:49 PM
Sure it would be....especially if the assessments and criteria for judgements were valid; I mean, we should compare apples to apples right?

Let's force private schools to take in the same clientele as public schools (special education students, English as a second language students, immigrants, and behaviorally challenged kids---even give the private schools generous vouchers and tax subsidies to support their attempts to educate such children, with no strings attached other than educating such kids on the same basis as public schools do)....

After we've done that for a few years, then let us compare test scores; and then let's see who is REALLY doing a better job....when we compare apples to apples, rather than public schools who have to take everyone, to private schools who get to cherry-pick students by "entrance requirements" or financial advantage of parents.....

I'd like the chances of most public schools in the country (though not large urban districts, sadly) to compete on that playing field.

:)

http://www.cikava.com/gallery/albums/Emoticons/missed_the_point.jpg


What would the point of that be?

ClevelandBronco
10-19-2008, 11:57 PM
Sure it would be....especially if the assessments and criteria for judgements were valid; I mean, we should compare apples to apples right?

Let's force private schools to take in the same clientele as public schools (special education students, English as a second language students, immigrants, and behaviorally challenged kids---even give the private schools generous vouchers and tax subsidies to support their attempts to educate such children, with no strings attached other than educating such kids on the same basis as public schools do)....

After we've done that for a few years, then let us compare test scores; and then let's see who is REALLY doing a better job....when we compare apples to apples, rather than public schools who have to take everyone, to private schools who get to cherry-pick students by "entrance requirements" or financial advantage of parents.....

I'd like the chances of most public schools in the country (though not large urban districts, sadly) to compete on that playing field.

:)

Hey, my overachieving kids are apples. Those other kids are oranges.

What's your solution?

ClevelandBronco
10-19-2008, 11:58 PM
Overachieving private schools are apples. Some underachieving public schools are oranges.

What's your solution?

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:01 AM
http://www.cikava.com/gallery/albums/Emoticons/missed_the_point.jpg


What would the point of that be?

If you are talking about "choice," I'm fine with that. Good public schools have nothing to fear there. Only the bad ones do; bring it on. OTOH, the "voucher" or stipend we are talking about wouldn't allow many poor/middle class folks to send their kids to such schools anyway....because tuition at such schools far exceeds what per pupil spending in most public schools. I do agree, however, that parents that want to "take" that money with them to private schools....ought to have that right---especially of that areas public schools really do suck. And large urban areas do have real problems.

However, private schooling is big time over-rated when you consider the "raw resources" they have to work with versus what most public schools have to work with.

I'm convinced the "market" would work. Places that have good public schools would lose some kids because parents want a parochial education for their kids; I have no problem with that. Good public schools will survive....and thrive, despite the dire predictions of some.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:08 AM
Overachieving private schools are apples. Some underachieving public schools are oranges.

What's your solution?

In the short term? Give 'em their vouchers, fine; but then hold private schools to the same standards/attendance criteria as public schools are held. Start with no cherry-picking.

Long-term? Realize not everyone is college material, and go to a European style tracked system for publc schools....beginning at age 13-14. But again, private schools that want vouchers must adhere to the same standards and requirements regarding attendance, testing, reciept of public funds than public schools do (except regarding religious activities and content, which they could continue "as is") Then the comparisons between public and private schools would be much more fair. Then you let the market take care of the rest.

ClevelandBronco
10-20-2008, 12:17 AM
In the short term? Give 'em their vouchers, fine; but then hold private schools to the same standards/attendance criteria as public schools are held. Start with no cherry-picking...

Deal breaker right off the bat.

I'd rather pay privately for my own kids and then yours through my taxes. Too bad for the kids who aren't acceptable at the school my kids attend.

This is exactly why I don't think the idea will ever work.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:20 AM
Deal breaker right off the bat.

I'd rather pay privately for my own kids and then yours through my taxes. Too bad for the kids who aren't acceptable at the school my kids attend.

This is exactly why I don't think the idea will ever work.

Then you pay for exclusivity; period, end of discussion.

You want the public money/tax dollars....the "playing field" has to be even.

Otherwise, you are simply resurrecting Jim Crowe.

ClevelandBronco
10-20-2008, 12:26 AM
There's a girl (may God Himself bless her) at my daughter's school who can't speak at all. No one can say for sure whether she hears or comprehends at all, because she's incapable of responding in any way. She'll go through 13 years of public education because we're supposed to "mainstream" these kids.

Whatever.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:28 AM
There's a girl (may God Himself bless her) at my daughter's school who can't speak at all. No one can say for sure whether she hears or comprehends at all, because she's incapable of responding in any way. She'll go through 13 years of public education because we're supposed to "mainstream" these kids.

Whatever.

If that's true, and she attended a truly decent district....then I'd be shocked if your private school will have any success with her either.

FWIW, "mainstreaming" is an example of good intentions that are ruining the overall quality of education in this country.....huge resources, time, and effort spent on a handful of students at the expense of most students. It's the bright kids who get short-changed the most, because....well....(the thinking goes) those kids will be just fine. Yet THOSE kids are our true future leaders; what a tremendous disservice that is. What a bunch of horseshit. So I'd be with you, if that's what you mean.

ClevelandBronco
10-20-2008, 12:29 AM
Then you pay for exclusivity; period, end of discussion.

You want the public money/tax dollars....the "playing field" has to be even.

Otherwise, you are simply resurrecting Jim Crowe.

Should the girl in my previous post be educated at all? Why? To make her parents feel better about her situation?

If that's any part of what you're talking about when you talk about "special" education, then every one of you with a teaching degree should rethink what it means to learn.

ClevelandBronco
10-20-2008, 12:30 AM
If that's true, and she attended a truly decent district....then I'd be shocked if your private school will have any success with her either.

SHE DOESN'T BELONG IN SCHOOL AT ALL, KOTTER.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:32 AM
SHE DOESN'T BELONG IN SCHOOL AT ALL, KOTTER.

I edited my post to address that....

ClevelandBronco
10-20-2008, 12:47 AM
I edited my post to address that....

Cool. Now let me tell you another story.

It's just an anecdote, so don't take too much from it.

I took my kids out of private school and put them in public school. A week in, my son's third grade teacher called us (my wife and me) in to suggest that we should put him on Ritalin.

I told her I'd have him in multiple schools before I'd ever drug him.

At home I had a 15 minute conversation with my son that cleared up all trouble.

Now, what the **** was that teacher thinking? MOREOVER, WHAT THE **** ARE THESE TEACHERS BEING TAUGHT?

My son is now an eight grade honor student. We don't give him any drugs, and we never have.

I wonder whether that teacher convinced someone else to drug his son.

irishjayhawk
10-20-2008, 12:49 AM
Cool. Now let me tell you another story.

It's just an anecdote, so don't take too much from it.

I took my kids out of private school and put them in public school. A week in, my son's third grade teacher called us (my wife and me) in to suggest that we should put him on Ritalin.

I told her I'd have him in multiple schools before I'd ever drug him.

I had a 15 minute conversation with my son that cleared up all trouble.

Now, what the **** was that teacher thinking? MOREOVER, WHAT THE **** ARE THESE TEACHERS BEING TAUGHT?

My son is now an eight grade honor student. We don't give him any drugs, and we never have.

I wonder whether that teacher convinced someone else to drug his son.

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ClevelandBronco
10-20-2008, 01:22 AM
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Irish, that was just an astounding thing. Thanks.

I owe you one.

NewChief
10-20-2008, 04:33 AM
Cool. Now let me tell you another story.

It's just an anecdote, so don't take too much from it.

I took my kids out of private school and put them in public school. A week in, my son's third grade teacher called us (my wife and me) in to suggest that we should put him on Ritalin.

I told her I'd have him in multiple schools before I'd ever drug him.

At home I had a 15 minute conversation with my son that cleared up all trouble.

Now, what the **** was that teacher thinking? MOREOVER, WHAT THE **** ARE THESE TEACHERS BEING TAUGHT?

My son is now an eight grade honor student. We don't give him any drugs, and we never have.

I wonder whether that teacher convinced someone else to drug his son.

Your story is nuts. Teachers suggesting medication is something they can be sued over. This teacher was obviously an idiot.

NewChief
10-20-2008, 04:38 AM
If that's true, and she attended a truly decent district....then I'd be shocked if your private school will have any success with her either.

FWIW, "mainstreaming" is an example of good intentions that are ruining the overall quality of education in this country.....huge resources, time, and effort spent on a handful of students at the expense of most students. It's the bright kids who get short-changed the most, because....well....(the thinking goes) those kids will be just fine. Yet THOSE kids are our true future leaders; what a tremendous disservice that is. What a bunch of horseshit. So I'd be with you, if that's what you mean.

Inclusion is a tough issue. I think that one factor that is often ignored in the inclusion debate is the effect that inclusion has, not only on the special needs student, but on the "regular" classmates. I see nothing wrong with our future leaders having exposure to and working with peers and classmates with exceptionalities. In fact, I think that exposure can be as valuable to a future citizen or leader of our country as any content or curriculum that a school can teach.

Saggysack
10-20-2008, 05:33 AM
Your story is nuts.

Obviously. I'm must be missing out. These nutty stories only happen to other people.

Oh well, atleast I can still say I won the lottery. Unfortunately, the payout was only a free ticket.

Friendo
10-20-2008, 06:16 AM
Obviously. I'm must be missing out. These nutty stories only happen to other people.

Oh well, atleast I can still say I won the lottery. Unfortunately, the payout was only a free ticket.


ROFL

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 08:39 AM
Inclusion is a tough issue. I think that one factor that is often ignored in the inclusion debate is the effect that inclusion has, not only on the special needs student, but on the "regular" classmates. I see nothing wrong with our future leaders having exposure to and working with peers and classmates with exceptionalities. In fact, I think that exposure can be as valuable to a future citizen or leader of our country as any content or curriculum that a school can teach.

It is a tough issue. No doubt about it. And no, I'm not one that ignores the issue you raise; it's valid. There are legitimate benefits and purpose to the goal you suggest. In general, I have no problem with inclusion when we are talking about moderate deficits.

However, it's the more severe cases that are the real issue for me. The enormous drain (people, money, and effort) diverts valuable resources that would have much, much more impact with kids and programs that are, in the end, more important in the bigger scheme of life.

Sully
10-20-2008, 08:44 AM
Cool. Now let me tell you another story.

It's just an anecdote, so don't take too much from it.

I took my kids out of private school and put them in public school. A week in, my son's third grade teacher called us (my wife and me) in to suggest that we should put him on Ritalin.

I told her I'd have him in multiple schools before I'd ever drug him.

At home I had a 15 minute conversation with my son that cleared up all trouble.

Now, what the **** was that teacher thinking? MOREOVER, WHAT THE **** ARE THESE TEACHERS BEING TAUGHT?

My son is now an eight grade honor student. We don't give him any drugs, and we never have.

I wonder whether that teacher convinced someone else to drug his son.

That teacher could easily be fired.
By "prescribing" your child with ritalin, she has put her school district on the hook for paying for it, now. Jeez...I haven't had one class where they haven't warned us against dong this very thing, as it's the quickest way to get fired.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 08:51 AM
Cool. Now let me tell you another story.

It's just an anecdote, so don't take too much from it.

I took my kids out of private school and put them in public school. A week in, my son's third grade teacher called us (my wife and me) in to suggest that we should put him on Ritalin.

I told her I'd have him in multiple schools before I'd ever drug him.

At home I had a 15 minute conversation with my son that cleared up all trouble.

Now, what the **** was that teacher thinking? MOREOVER, WHAT THE **** ARE THESE TEACHERS BEING TAUGHT?

My son is now an eight grade honor student. We don't give him any drugs, and we never have.

I wonder whether that teacher convinced someone else to drug his son.


That teacher and/or school are out-of-line. They can make observations, and offer advice in a tactful and sensitive way, without being unprofessional.

ADD/ADHD is an over-diagnosed problem IMHO, and too often becomes a scapegoat for educators and parents who can't get through to certain kids. On the other hand, as someone who is very skeptical....I can tell you from personal experience, proper treatment of legitimate cases can make all the difference in the world.

I've seen "gifted" students who were under-performing academically....who with medication/treatment increased their grades and test scores tremendously. Drugs shouldn't be the first answer to such problems, but it's naive and professionally irresponsible to ignore that in many cases there are benefits.

You can't use anecdotes, or comparisons that are apples and oranges, to castigate and denigrate all public schools with a broad sweeping criticisms that "all public schools suck!" They don't. No more than all lawyers suck; or than all bankers and stock brokers are greedy scum. There are good ones and bad ones--just like in most professions. Instead, each district and school should be judged on merit, not hyperbole and selective attention to detail.

NewChief
10-20-2008, 08:51 AM
That teacher could easily be fired.
By "prescribing" your child with ritalin, she has put her school district on the hook for paying for it, now. Jeez...I haven't had one class where they haven't warned us against dong this very thing, as it's the quickest way to get fired.


Exactly.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 11:17 AM
Exactly.

Wouldn't it depend on whether or not it was deliberate, or a simple misstatement/mischaracterization of what was actually said....?

Don't get me wrong; you and I know it would be stupid. But what about a first year teacher, who is over-zealous and simply trying to "help".....as long as it wasn't deliberate, there'd probably be some discipline, but.....a lawsuit and settlement; yeah......but, fired? Maybe.

:hmmm:

jidar
10-20-2008, 11:39 AM
Irish, that was just an astounding thing. Thanks.

I owe you one.

TED is awesome. Everyone should bookmark it.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 11:41 AM
TED is awesome. Everyone should bookmark it.


Anyone got "Cliff Notes" of Ted....he's blocked/video isn't working for me.... :shrug:

Garcia Bronco
10-20-2008, 11:51 AM
I am also in favor of giving the parents choices, and giving childless people the option of opting out of paying an taxes that go to any school until such time as they have children.

Garcia Bronco
10-20-2008, 11:53 AM
Cool. Now let me tell you another story.

It's just an anecdote, so don't take too much from it.

I took my kids out of private school and put them in public school. A week in, my son's third grade teacher called us (my wife and me) in to suggest that we should put him on Ritalin.

I told her I'd have him in multiple schools before I'd ever drug him.

At home I had a 15 minute conversation with my son that cleared up all trouble.

Now, what the **** was that teacher thinking? MOREOVER, WHAT THE **** ARE THESE TEACHERS BEING TAUGHT?

My son is now an eight grade honor student. We don't give him any drugs, and we never have.

I wonder whether that teacher convinced someone else to drug his son.

I question why a non-qualified doctor is reccommending drugs for your child? That would be my first question to the DA when I filed charges.

irishjayhawk
10-20-2008, 12:23 PM
Anyone got "Cliff Notes" of Ted....he's blocked/video isn't working for me.... :shrug:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iG9CE55wbtY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iG9CE55wbtY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Does that work?

Sully
10-20-2008, 12:46 PM
Wouldn't it depend on whether or not it was deliberate, or a simple misstatement/mischaracterization of what was actually said....?

Don't get me wrong; you and I know it would be stupid. But what about a first year teacher, who is over-zealous and simply trying to "help".....as long as it wasn't deliberate, there'd probably be some discipline, but.....a lawsuit and settlement; yeah......but, fired? Maybe.

:hmmm:

I'm under the impression that the school I'm going to for my Masters in Ed is one of the better ones in the area, so it's possible that other schools don't emphasize this as much as mine does...but like I said, there hasn't been a class I've taken where they haven't told us the dangers of saying such a thing. With that type of emphasis, I guess I just assumed all schools would give their ed students that type of info.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:55 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iG9CE55wbtY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iG9CE55wbtY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Does that work?

Nope....no video at my current location.

Thanks for trying though.

Mr. Kotter
10-20-2008, 12:59 PM
I am also in favor of giving the parents choices, and giving childless people the option of opting out of paying an taxes that go to any school until such time as they have children.

That ain't gonna happen; education is, in the minds of most people I think, a community issue. Say an older childless couple doesn't have kids, but runs a small business---they will certainly expect their employees to have a decent education. The cost of that expectation is paid by their taxes. All citizens lives---standard of living, quality of life, wages and business climate....are ALL directly impacted by the quality of schools in their communities.

***SPRAYER
06-23-2009, 07:30 PM
This is wonderful:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_us/us_rubber_rooms

:drool:

***SPRAYER
06-23-2009, 07:42 PM
This is awesome! Moonbat Nirvana~ ROFL

NEW YORK Hundreds of New York City public school teachers accused of offenses ranging from insubordination to sexual misconduct are being paid their full salaries to sit around all day playing Scrabble, surfing the Internet or just staring at the wall, if that's what they want to do.

Because their union contract makes it extremely difficult to fire them, the teachers have been banished by the school system to its "rubber rooms" off-campus office space where they wait months, even years, for their disciplinary hearings.

The 700 or so teachers can practice yoga, work on their novels, paint portraits of their colleagues pretty much anything but school work. They have summer vacation just like their classroom colleagues and enjoy weekends and holidays through the school year.

"You just basically sit there for eight hours," said Orlando Ramos, who spent seven months in a rubber room, officially known as a temporary reassignment center, in 2004-05. "I saw several near-fights. `This is my seat.' `I've been sitting here for six months.' That sort of thing."

Ramos was an assistant principal in East Harlem when he was accused of lying at a hearing on whether to suspend a student. Ramos denied the allegation but quit before his case was resolved and took a job in California.

Because the teachers collect their full salaries of $70,000 or more, the city Department of Education estimates the practice costs the taxpayers $65 million a year. The department blames union rules.

"It is extremely difficult to fire a tenured teacher because of the protections afforded to them in their contract," spokeswoman Ann Forte said.

City officials said that they make teachers report to a rubber room instead of sending they home because the union contract requires that they be allowed to continue in their jobs in some fashion while their cases are being heard. The contract does not permit them to be given other work.

Ron Davis, a spokesman for the United Federation of Teachers, said the union and the Department of Education reached an agreement last year to try to reduce the amount of time educators spend in reassignment centers, but progress has been slow.

"No one wants teachers who don't belong in the classroom. However, we cannot neglect the teachers' rights to due process," Davis said. The union represents more than 228,000 employees, including nearly 90,000 teachers.

Many teachers say they are being punished because they ran afoul of a vindictive boss or because they blew the whistle when somebody fudged test scores.

"The principal wants you out, you're gone," said Michael Thomas, a high school math teacher who has been in a reassignment center for 14 months after accusing an assistant principal of tinkering with test results.

City education officials deny teachers are unfairly targeted but say there has been an effort under Mayor Michael Bloomberg to get incompetents out of the classroom. "There's been a push to report anything that you see wrong," Forte said.

Some other school systems likewise pay teachers to do nothing.

The Los Angeles district, the nation's second-largest school system with 620,000 students, behind New York's 1.1 million, said it has 178 teachers and other staff members who are being "housed" while they wait for misconduct charges to be resolved.

Similarly, Mimi Shapiro, who is now retired, said she was assigned to sit in what Philadelphia calls a "cluster office." "They just sit you in a room in a hard chair," she said, "and you just sit."

Teacher advocates say New York's rubber rooms are more extensive than anything that exists elsewhere.

Teachers awaiting disciplinary hearings around the nation typically are sent home, with or without pay, Karen Horwitz, a former Chicago-area teacher who founded the National Association for the Prevention of Teacher Abuse. Some districts find non-classroom work office duties, for example for teachers accused of misconduct.

New York City's reassignment centers have existed since the late 1990s, Forte said. But the number of employees assigned to them has ballooned since Bloomberg won more control over the schools in 2002. Most of those sent to rubber rooms are teachers; others are assistant principals, social workers, psychologists and secretaries.

Once their hearings are over, they are either sent back to the classroom or fired. But because their cases are heard by 23 arbitrators who work only five days a month, stints of two or three years in a rubber room are common, and some teachers have been there for five or six.

The nickname refers to the padded cells of old insane asylums. Some teachers say that is fitting, since some of the inhabitants are unstable and don't belong in the classroom. They add that being in a rubber room itself is bad for your mental health.

"Most people in that room are depressed," said Jennifer Saunders, a high school teacher who was in a reassignment center from 2005 to 2008. Saunders said she was charged with petty infractions in an effort to get rid of her: "I was charged with having a student sit in my class with a hat on, singing."

The rubber rooms are monitored, some more strictly than others, teachers said.

"There was a bar across the street," Saunders said. "Teachers would sneak out and hang out there for hours."

Judith Cohen, an art teacher who has been in a rubber room near Madison Square Garden for three years, said she passes the time by painting watercolors of her fellow detainees.

"The day just seemed to crawl by until I started painting," Cohen said, adding that others read, play dominoes or sleep. Cohen said she was charged with using abusive language when a girl cut her with scissors.

Some sell real estate, earn graduate degrees or teach each other yoga and tai chi.

David Suker, who has been in a Brooklyn reassignment center for three months, said he has used the time to plan summer trips to Alaska, Cape Cod and Costa Rica. Suker said he was falsely accused of throwing a girl's test sign-up form in the garbage during an argument.

"It's sort of peaceful knowing that you're going to work to do nothing," he said.

Philip Nobile is a journalist who has written for New York Magazine and the Village Voice and is known for his scathing criticism of public figures. A teacher at Brooklyn's Cobble Hill School of American Studies, Nobile was assigned to a rubber room in 2007, "supposedly for pushing a boy while I was breaking up a fight." He contends the school system is retaliating against him for exposing wrongdoing.

He is spending his time working on his case and writing magazine articles and a novel.

"This is what happens to political prisoners throughout history," he said, alluding to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. "They put us in prison and we write our `Letter From the Birmingham Jail.'"