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BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 09:22 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_el_ge/fact_check_obama_ad

WASHINGTON Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama was less than upfront in his half-hour commercial Wednesday night about the costs of his programs and the crushing budget pressures he would face in office.

Obama's assertion that "I've offered spending cuts above and beyond" the expense of his promises is accepted only by his partisans. His vow to save money by "eliminating programs that don't work" masks his failure throughout the campaign to specify what those programs are beyond the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

A sampling of what voters heard in the ad, and what he didn't tell them:

THE SPIN: "That's why my health care plan includes improving information technology, requires coverage for preventive care and pre-existing conditions and lowers health care costs for the typical family by $2,500 a year."

THE FACTS: His plan does not lower premiums by $2,500, or any set amount. Obama hopes that by spending $50 billion over five years on electronic medical records and by improving access to proven disease management programs, among other steps, consumers will end up saving money. He uses an optimistic analysis to suggest cost reductions in national health care spending could amount to the equivalent of $2,500 for a family of four. Many economists are skeptical those savings can be achieved, but even if they are, it's not a certainty that every dollar would be passed on to consumers in the form of lower premiums.

___

THE SPIN: "I also believe every American has a right to affordable health care."

THE FACTS: That belief should not be confused with a guarantee of health coverage for all. He makes no such promise. Obama hinted as much in the ad when he said about the problem of the uninsured: "I want to start doing something about it." He would mandate coverage for children but not adults. His program is aimed at making insurance more affordable by offering the choice of government-subsidized coverage similar to that in a plan for federal employees and other steps, including requiring larger employers to share costs of insuring workers.

___

THE SPIN: "I've offered spending cuts above and beyond their cost."

THE FACTS: Independent analysts say both Obama and Republican John McCain would deepen the deficit. The nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates Obama's policy proposals would add a net $428 billion to the deficit over four years and that analysis accepts the savings he claims from spending cuts. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, whose other findings have been quoted approvingly by the Obama campaign, says: "Both John McCain and Barack Obama have proposed tax plans that would substantially increase the national debt over the next 10 years." The analysis goes on to say: "Neither candidate's plan would significantly increase economic growth unless offset by spending cuts or tax increases that the campaigns have not specified."

___

THE SPIN: "Here's what I'll do. Cut taxes for every working family making less than $200,000 a year. Give businesses a tax credit for every new employee that they hire right here in the U.S. over the next two years and eliminate tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. Help homeowners who are making a good faith effort to pay their mortgages, by freezing foreclosures for 90 days. And just like after 9-11, we'll provide low-cost loans to help small businesses pay their workers and keep their doors open. "

THE FACTS: His proposals the tax cuts, the low-cost loans, the $15 billion a year he promises for alternative energy, and more cost money, and the country could be facing a record $1 trillion deficit next year. Indeed, Obama recently acknowledged although not in his commercial that: "The next president will have to scale back his agenda and some of his proposals."

donkhater
10-30-2008, 09:23 AM
The first person who is shocked that a politician is less than truthful during an election campaign raise your hand.

KCJohnny
10-30-2008, 09:25 AM
Its out there if anyone cares. But all you mesmerized by Kim Jong Il-like demigoguery have long discarded the facts. You will get what you deserve.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 09:27 AM
The first person who is shocked that a politician is less than truthful during an election campaign raise your hand.


But Obama is a new type of politician. Didn't you get the memo?

BigChiefFan
10-30-2008, 09:32 AM
Its out there if anyone cares. But all you mesmerized by Kim Jong Il-like demigoguery have long discrded the facts. You will get what you deserve.More fire and brimstone, Johnny. Thanks for all your unwavering support of ALL Americans, oops.

HonestChieffan
10-30-2008, 09:33 AM
It really was almost funny to watch. This guy has no principals other than winning and would clime a flagpole to lie before he would satnd on the ground and tell the truth.

HolyHandgernade
10-30-2008, 09:34 AM
Let's see, last President to run on a campaign of promising to raise your taxes or cut your benefits? Mondale. Yeah, like any candidate is going to run on that program!

Campaigns are about vision and optimism. Promises from either side go the way of New Year's resolutions. All you get is an idea what direction they want to go, and you decide if you like the direction, and hope we get some good governance. I mean, unless of course, you enjoy hysteria. Then by all means, create a bunch of posts about the "end of America".

-HH

jAZ
10-30-2008, 09:35 AM
Since when is an AP Writier a credible enough to make himself the primary source for a "fact check" on a politician?

He doesn't provide any citations to sources to back up his claims of "fact"?

Seems that McCain's Embedded Communications Director over at the AP's DC Bureau (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/12149.html) is earning his paycheck.

BigChiefFan
10-30-2008, 09:37 AM
I'd rather the guy just say I hate Obama, then run this fucking charade.

donkhater
10-30-2008, 09:37 AM
But Obama is a new type of politician. Didn't you get the memo?

Most of the country spat on the most honest and principled candidate during the primaries. He was the only one offering the type of change that could truly get us out of the finacial and political mess we currently find ourselves in. Anyone voting for a republicrat is kidding themselves if change is what they are basing their vote on.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 09:37 AM
Let's see, last President to run on a campaign of promising to raise your taxes or cut your benefits? Mondale. Yeah, like any candidate is going to run on that program!

Campaigns are about vision and optimism. Promises from either side go the way of New Year's resolutions. All you get is an idea what direction they want to go, and you decide if you like the direction, and hope we get some good governance. I mean, unless of course, you enjoy hysteria. Then by all means, create a bunch of posts about the "end of America".

-HH

Not everyone undertands that and there will be MANY disappointed people when he doesn't deliver and they realize he is just another one instead of "the one".

mlyonsd
10-30-2008, 10:00 AM
THE SPIN: "Here's what I'll do. Cut taxes for every working family making less than $200,000 a year.

I'm confused. I thought it was $250,000.

Are we throwing darts at a board or something?

Direckshun
10-30-2008, 10:03 AM
That article is actually a hackjob.

"I believe healthcare should be a right" is 'spin' because he didn't specifically guarantee we'd have it? WTF?

And that last point wasn't a refutation at all. Just a damn suspicion.

HonestChieffan
10-30-2008, 10:04 AM
I'm confused. I thought it was $250,000.

Are we throwing darts at a board or something?

It was but then he changed it

OnTheWarpath58
10-30-2008, 10:06 AM
I'd rather the guy just say I hate Obama, then run this fucking charade.

Dude had to run a 600 word piece.

mlyonsd
10-30-2008, 10:06 AM
It was but then he changed it

I'm getting closer and closer to being rich everyday.

HonestChieffan
10-30-2008, 10:08 AM
I'm getting closer and closer to being rich everyday.

there is still time.

mlyonsd
10-30-2008, 10:09 AM
there is still time.

I think the majority of us will find that out in January.

HonestChieffan
10-30-2008, 10:10 AM
maybe he tied "rich" to the dollar. Strong dollar makes you rich at a lower level and taxes can be assesed.

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 10:18 AM
How can you fact check a simple sentence that says "I believe ..."?

THE SPIN: "I also believe every American has a right to affordable health care."

Rooster
10-30-2008, 10:25 AM
The first person who is shocked that a politician is less than truthful during an election campaign raise your hand.

ROFL I just pictured thousands of O-bots raising their hands.

Pitt Gorilla
10-30-2008, 10:26 AM
That article is actually a hackjob.

"I believe healthcare should be a right" is 'spin' because he didn't specifically guarantee we'd have it? WTF?

And that last point wasn't a refutation at all. Just a damn suspicion.Yeah, this thing wasn't exactly full of blatant lies as the OP would have one believe.

alanm
10-30-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm confused. I thought it was $250,000.

Are we throwing darts at a board or something?And then Biden said it was $150,000 so take your pick. Or go out side and see which way the wind is blowing.

whoman69
10-30-2008, 10:33 AM
The facts presented in this article are hardly facts but doubts. They state that the Obama plan will not bring as much savings as Obama claims but cannot give a figure on the savings, then go on to say that even bringing costs down might not be passed along to the consumer. Don't they trust the free enterprise system? Right now the facts are that we are paying an increasing amount for our healthcare and its not getting any better. Its actually getting worse.

The fact also admit that McBush would also increase the deficit in what he is promoting, but won't say how much that is. Most projections I have seen have given a higher deficit to McBush economics. They want him to name the cuts he would make. Most likely that would be a lengthy process of looking over the budget with his whole cabinet. He has offered programs that he was looking to cut. A complete list would interest no one except those wanting to rip it apart.

The facts are the McBush tax cuts would also cost money. I'd rather see cuts going to those who could use them instead of the same old rich getting richer scheme that we've been through the last eight years.

Same old one sided fact check from a biased source.

HonestChieffan
10-30-2008, 10:36 AM
The facts presented in this article are hardly facts but doubts. They state that the Obama plan will not bring as much savings as Obama claims but cannot give a figure on the savings, then go on to say that even bringing costs down might not be passed along to the consumer. Don't they trust the free enterprise system? Right now the facts are that we are paying an increasing amount for our healthcare and its not getting any better. Its actually getting worse.

The fact also admit that McBush would also increase the deficit in what he is promoting, but won't say how much that is. Most projections I have seen have given a higher deficit to McBush economics. They want him to name the cuts he would make. Most likely that would be a lengthy process of looking over the budget with his whole cabinet. He has offered programs that he was looking to cut. A complete list would interest no one except those wanting to rip it apart.

The facts are the McBush tax cuts would also cost money. I'd rather see cuts going to those who could use them instead of the same old rich getting richer scheme that we've been through the last eight years.

Same old one sided fact check from a biased source.


Free enterprise is not governmentaly driven...thus "free"...

The only people who spout off that healthcare is bad and getting worse are people like you who have no clue.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 10:41 AM
And then Biden said it was $150,000 so take your pick. Or go out side and see which way the wind is blowing.

Yeah, it's going to be 50K before we know it I'm afraid.

HonestChieffan
10-30-2008, 11:12 AM
Well Obo did vote to increase taxes on people as low as 42 grand a year ago...

And he wants to eliminate the Bush tax cuts...they applied to every tax category...

modocsot
10-30-2008, 11:13 AM
I'm confused. I thought it was $250,000.

Are we throwing darts at a board or something?

$250k married filing jointly.
$200k individual filing (although some here may not consider raising kids as a single parent, as a "family")

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf
It's been on his site for months:

Repealing a portion of the Bush tax cuts for families over $250,000 while continuing to leave their tax
rates at or below where they were in the 1990s:
o Ordinary Income: The top two income tax brackets would return to their 1990s levels of 36% and
39.6%. All other tax brackets would remain as they are today. Obama would also restore the 1990s
levels for the personal exemption and itemized deduction phaseouts (known as PEP and Pease).
Obama would work with the Treasury Department to adjust the thresholds of these rates slightly to
ensure that no married couple making less than $250,000 (or single making less than $200,000) was
affected by these changes.

Direckshun
10-30-2008, 11:13 AM
The facts presented in this article are hardly facts but doubts.

Bingo.

donkhater
10-30-2008, 11:27 AM
Everytime I think of presidential promises I think of this joke:

A politician dies is presented with a choice of going to heaven or to hell. But he doesn't have to decide until he sees either place.

So the man decides to see what hell is like just for kicks and when he gets there everyone is partying around a big shimmering pool, drinking and having a good time. The devil says,"Come stay with us, hell isn't isn't what you thought it was."

The politician leaves impressed and decides to see what heaven offers. But when he gets there, there is no partying, no beautiful women, just a lot of peaceful, subdued souls.

The politician decides,"The heck with heaven. I choose hell." At once he is whisked away back to hell, but instead of the beautiful women and alcohol and fun, all he sees is people walking around in chains, banging pickaxes on rockes and smelling like brimstone.

The politician asks,"Where is all the girls, the booze and the party?"

The devil replies,"Oh that was just our campaign, today you voted."

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 11:28 AM
And he wants to eliminate the Bush tax cuts...they applied to every tax category...

Prove it. Please prove or link to a source that he will eliminate the Bush tax cuts to those making under $250k.

StcChief
10-30-2008, 11:30 AM
Everytime I think of presidential promises I think of this joke:

A politician dies is presented with a choice of going to heaven or to hell. But he doesn't have to decide until he sees either place.

So the man decides to see what hell is like just for kicks and when he gets there everyone is partying around a big shimmering pool, drinking and having a good time. The devil says,"Come stay with us, hell isn't isn't what you thought it was."

The politician leaves impressed and decides to see what heaven offers. But when he gets there, there is no partying, no beautiful women, just a lot of peaceful, subdued souls.

The politician decides,"The heck with heaven. I choose hell." At once he is whisked away back to hell, but instead of the beautiful women and alcohol and fun, all he sees is people walking around in chains, banging pickaxes on rockes and smelling like brimstone.

The politician asks,"Where is all the girls, the booze and the party?"

The devil replies,"Oh that was just our campaign, today you voted.":evil: pretty much covers it :clap:

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 11:38 AM
Prove it. Please prove or link to a source that he will eliminate the Bush tax cuts to those making under $250k.

HCF,

Since I know you will ignore my question because you can't prove it. Here is the real deal:

"Restore phaseouts of personal exemptions and itemized deducations (PEP and Pease) for households making more than $200,000 ($250,000 for married couples)"

What's with all these right wing so called Christian God fearing people who constantly and purposefully continue to lie about all things Obama?

tiptap
10-30-2008, 11:49 AM
I'm confused. I thought it was $250,000.

Are we throwing darts at a board or something?

Cut taxes less than 200,000, don't raise taxes up to 250,000. There is a difference

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 11:54 AM
HCF,

Since I know you will ignore my question because you can't prove it. Here is the real deal:

"Restore phaseouts of personal exemptions and itemized deducations (PEP and Pease) for households making more than $200,000 ($250,000 for married couples)"

What's with all these right wing so called Christian God fearing people who constantly and purposefully continue to lie about all things Obama?

So you believe Obama will cut taxes for those making 250K and less?

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 11:59 AM
"The next president will have to scale back his agenda and some of his proposals."

There is the opening to take all the promises back. Anyone who actually believes he can even come close to doing what he has said is just not looking.

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 12:03 PM
So you believe Obama will cut taxes for those making 250K and less?

According to the non-partisan tax policy center Obama will cut taxes for those making 200k and less. Obama has said there would be no increase for families between 200 and 250k.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 12:03 PM
"The next president will have to scale back his agenda and some of his proposals."

There is the opening to take all the promises back. Anyone who actually believes he can even come close to doing what he has said is just not looking.

I think the bigger question at this point is "Will the media expose him to Joe Citizen, once he doesn't deliever on these promises?"

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 12:05 PM
According to the non-partisan tax policy center Obama will cut taxes for those making 200k and less. Obama has said there would be no increase for families between 200 and 250k.

Right, and I'm asking if YOU believe he will put this plan into place.

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Right, and I'm asking if YOU believe he will put this plan into place.

First, what does that have to do with HCF continually posting lies about Obama's proposed plan?

Second, I don't necessarily trust that either candidate will do what they say.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 12:15 PM
First, what does that have to do with HCF continually posting lies about Obama's proposed plan?

Second, I don't necessarily trust that either candidate will do what they say.

You said it was the "real deal", I just wanted to know how real you felt it would be. Thanks. I think both are lying as well.

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 12:40 PM
You said it was the "real deal", I just wanted to know how real you felt it would be. Thanks. I think both are lying as well.

Real deal as in the real proposal, whether it comes to fruition is another matter.

Personally, from what I remember. Romney had a decent tax proposal that I probably would have preferred to either McCain or Obamas plan.

mlyonsd
10-30-2008, 12:42 PM
Cut taxes less than 200,000, don't raise taxes up to 250,000. There is a difference

It used to be anyone making less than 250k would get a cut.

Course it used to be troops home within 16 months but I understand campaigns are fluid and things change.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 12:56 PM
I think the bigger question at this point is "Will the media expose him to Joe Citizen, once he doesn't deliever on these promises?"

Obama will divide this country BIG TIME. If he gets in everything he did will be under a microscope. You won't need the media to track his performance. Frankly if he stays alive the first two years it will surprise me. He's a pretty smart guy though I can't imagine he will go out in the public much after this is he does get in.

Chiefnj2
10-30-2008, 01:42 PM
Obama will divide this country BIG TIME. .

It hasn't been divided the last 16 years?

BigChiefFan
10-30-2008, 01:52 PM
Obama will divide this country BIG TIME. If he gets in everything he did will be under a microscope. You won't need the media to track his performance. Frankly if he stays alive the first two years it will surprise me. He's a pretty smart guy though I can't imagine he will go out in the public much after this is he does get in.
Sounds like if you don't get your way ,you'll do your part in helping divide.
Also, the inferring of one our possible future leaders assassination is getting a little old.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 01:53 PM
It hasn't been divided the last 16 years?

You ain't seen nothing yet.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 01:54 PM
Sounds like if you don't get your way ,you'll do your part in helping divide.
.


If my way is not having Obama as a president you betcha.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 02:00 PM
I think the fact that people will be in new roles now as in who has the power and who gets pick at them is what really is going to be the gasoline that fuels this.

DaneMcCloud
10-30-2008, 02:17 PM
Yeah, it's going to be 50K before we know it I'm afraid.

You're probably correct.

But let me ask you: How are the American people going to pay off the enormous amount of debt that's been accumulated over the past 8 years?

BigChiefFan
10-30-2008, 02:18 PM
If my way is not having Obama as a president you betcha.
How exactly does that work, once he's elected?

DaneMcCloud
10-30-2008, 02:19 PM
You ain't seen nothing yet.

Is that because Republicans have all the guns and are typically more violent than their Democratic counterparts?

And FWIW, you live in the wrong state. It doesn't matter who you vote for, it's going for the Democratic nominee.

You're screwed either way.

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 02:22 PM
You're probably correct.

But let me ask you: How are the American people going to pay off the enormous amount of debt that's been accumulated over the past 8 years?

For the record we had a large debt before the past 8 years, but we need to cut spending and raise taxes and I'm fine with that to an extent. I'm just tired of hearing how I'm going to get such a larger tax cut under the Obama plan compared to McCain's and free healthcare on top of my tax cut.

DaneMcCloud
10-30-2008, 02:30 PM
For the record we had a large debt before the past 8 years, but we need to cut spending and raise taxes and I'm fine with that to an extent. I'm just tired of hearing how I'm going to get such a larger tax cut under the Obama plan compared to McCain's and free healthcare on top of my tax cut.

Personally, I don't believe any of it. Not that it affects me anyway because no mater how you look at it, my household earnings are above those brackets being mentioned.

Even still, I will not vote for McCain.

Palin sealed that deal for me.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 02:33 PM
Is that because Republicans have all the guns and are typically more violent than their Democratic counterparts?

And FWIW, you live in the wrong state. It doesn't matter who you vote for, it's going for the Democratic nominee.

You're screwed either way.

For what it's worth I noticed there are a lot less Obama signs then there was Kerry signs last election.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 02:33 PM
Palin sealed that deal for me.

That's ridiculous

DaneMcCloud
10-30-2008, 02:38 PM
For what it's worth I noticed there are a lot less Obama signs then there was Kerry signs last election.

Really?

They're everywhere down here.

EVERYWHERE (though not on my cars or home).

DaneMcCloud
10-30-2008, 02:39 PM
That's ridiculous

Sorry, Man.

I don't trust her and I think she's in way over her head.

If McCain is elected and passes while in office, I HOPE I'm dead wrong.

But she appears to me to be nothing more than a cheerleader in a business suit.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 02:40 PM
Really?

They're everywhere down here.

EVERYWHERE (though not on my cars or home).

Interesting

DaneMcCloud
10-30-2008, 02:42 PM
Interesting

Along with vote NO on Prop 8 (Equality for everyone).

Those are all over my neighborhood. And these are heterosexual couples with toddlers.

whoman69
10-30-2008, 02:48 PM
Free enterprise is not governmentaly driven...thus "free"...

The only people who spout off that healthcare is bad and getting worse are people like you who have no clue.

Sorry that's not just my opinion. We are ranked 29th in healthcare. We spend more on healthcare than any country in the world and get the least return.

Brock
10-30-2008, 02:49 PM
Sorry that's not just my opinion. We are ranked 29th in healthcare. We spend more on healthcare than any country in the world and get the least return.

Is there any other country in the world you'd rather go to to have a complicated procedure done?

whoman69
10-30-2008, 02:50 PM
So you believe Obama will cut taxes for those making 250K and less?

You have anything besides what McBush tells you that indicates he will not?

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 02:52 PM
Along with vote NO on Prop 8 (Equality for everyone).

Those are all over my neighborhood. And these are heterosexual couples with toddlers.

Yea well you're in the colon of the beast. We have more no signs but the battles going on our street corners have more yes demonstrators. Once again it would be good the see some violence. How are you voting on it?

BigCatDaddy
10-30-2008, 02:54 PM
You have anything besides what McBush tells that indicates he will not?

Current spending excedes revenues, he wants to increase spending, so therefore I'm thinking there will be a tax increase. Also who was the last Democrat president to lower taxes?

whoman69
10-30-2008, 02:55 PM
Is there any other country in the world you'd rather go to to have a complicated procedure done?

I haven't really been shopping. I do know I was in the hospital two weeks ago and they still don't know what was wrong. I also know I was there for five hours before I got any treatment.

Brock
10-30-2008, 02:57 PM
I haven't really been shopping. I do know I was in the hospital two weeks ago and they still don't know what was wrong. I also know I was there for five hours before I got any treatment.

Non-answer noted.

BIG_DADDY
10-30-2008, 02:58 PM
I haven't really been shopping. I do know I was in the hospital two weeks ago and they still don't know what was wrong. I also know I was there for five hours before I got any treatment.

The system is broken, I do agree with that. We need to do something besides treat symptoms. Let me guess, they gave you some drugs.