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KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 04:53 AM
Senator Obama in SF, California in January 2008: Let me sort of describe my overall policy.
What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else’s out there.
I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.
That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches.
The only thing I’ve said with respect to coal, I haven’t been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can.
It’s just that it will bankrupt them.


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Greenism is the new paganism. Global Warming is it's prophecy of doom. Obama is willing to operationalize this theory at the expense of the Coal industry - which supplies 50% of the nation's electricity generation. In an Obama administration, the Coal Miner's Daughter might be proud but she'll be outta luck and her daddy could be out of work.

HonestChieffan
11-03-2008, 06:16 AM
And people still support this loon

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 06:32 AM
I have very little use for people who build policy on unproven scientific theories (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=195722). Coal is the source of 50% of all electricity in the US, but the One is going to tax, regulate and penalize it into extinction because he thinks it may be warming the planet's corps temperature?

You know, God has to be laughing at such nonsense.

tiptap
11-03-2008, 07:00 AM
I support the halt of building existing CO 2 emitting coal (and oil for that matter) plants. It is time to bring on line CO 2 sequestering measures. There may be other ways to wash CO 2 out of the atmosphere but those technologies have to be included in the operations of a coal plant.

ATOMS NOT ADAM

phisherman
11-03-2008, 07:06 AM
Greenism is the new paganism.


This almost has to be a joke.

Though seeing you post this wouldn't surprise me in the least.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-03-2008, 07:07 AM
Killer Austerity is coming, we should enjoy our 3rd world serfdom I mean it's not like we know how it works exactly. It could be that we thoroughly enjoy living impoverished. :(

HonestChieffan
11-03-2008, 07:10 AM
Do away with the way we produce 50% of our power...freaking lunacy

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 07:12 AM
No matter what your political persuasion, anyone can see higher taxes, a manipulation of free markets, wealth redistribution and softness on terrorism is right around the corner.

Ask Biden.

Oh, and I mention that the One made these remarks in Pelosiville (San Franciso)? Hmmmm.... is the Obo is SF or the Obo in PA the real One?

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 07:14 AM
What I want to know is if the voters in western PA are going to vote for the One who calls them bitter (clinging to guns and religion), racist (Murtha) and now is plotting to regulate the coal industry practically out of business.

What the heck is wrong with you people in PA??????

KILLER_CLOWN
11-03-2008, 07:17 AM
No matter what your political persuasion, anyone can see higher taxes, a manipulation of free markets, wealth redistribution and softness on terrorism is right around the corner.

Ask Biden.

All i see is the further decline of our country and the complete destruction of the poor/middle class. The wars will not end, the names and faces will though. Manipulation of free markets has been going on quite a while and as for wealth redistribution it won't be what anyone thinks more like The International banking cartel taking more of our money using left cover.

dirk digler
11-03-2008, 07:26 AM
Drudge tried to push this story on Saturday and it went no where because the clip and what he said was taken out of context

Politico has a better write up on it

Obama and McCain support similar cap-and-trade systems, which would make it prohibitively expensive to build new coal plants with existing, high-emissions technology. Obama's campaign said he was only referring old-fashioned, high-emissions coal plants, though he didn't specify that in the quote.

Obama was criticized in the primary for supporting "clean coal" as a senator and on the campaign trail, against the wishes of environmental groups, which consider it a fantasy.

The aide noted that in the same interview Obama said that "this notion of no coal, I think, is an illusion."

"The only thing that I’ve said with respect to — I haven’t been some coal booster," he said, speaking to an environmentalist-leaning editorial board in the primary. "What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a ideological matter, as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it. That, I think, is the right approach. The same with respect to nuclear."

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 07:26 AM
All i see is the further decline of our country and the complete destruction of the poor/middle class. The wars will not end, the names and faces will though. Manipulation of free markets has been going on quite a while and as for wealth redistribution it won't be what anyone thinks more like The International banking cartel taking more of our money using left cover.

CLOWN:
You don't destroy the poor/middle class by depriving them of economic opportunity; you destroy them by bereaving them of God-given ambition, character, striving for excellence and the world class quality produced by tenacious competition in a global market where 2/3rds of the players are still hungry. Making us into a fat, lazy dependent-on-government-so-that-everyone-wins society is how you really destroy the middle class. The Indians, Chinese and Koreans will soon be our masters if we continue down the spread-the-wealth-around ethic.

Ultra Peanut
11-03-2008, 07:39 AM
I have very little use for people who build policy on unproven scientific theories (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=195722).Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

This wholly incorrect line is especially rich coming from the guy whose job is to prance around talking about his imaginary friend.

Sully
11-03-2008, 07:46 AM
You know, God has to be laughing at such nonsense.

Are you ever embarrassed by the way you post?

Ever?

tiptap
11-03-2008, 07:56 AM
CLOWN:
You don't destroy the poor/middle class by depriving them of economic opportunity; you destroy them by bereaving them of God-given ambition, character, striving for excellence and the world class quality produced by tenacious competition in a global market where 2/3rds of the players are still hungry. Making us into a fat, lazy dependent-on-government-so-that-everyone-wins society is how you really destroy the middle class. The Indians, Chinese and Koreans will soon be our masters if we continue down the spread-the-wealth-around ethic.

Competition for Green solutions takes into account the true costs of producing that electricity upon downstream environmental concerns. No one is trying to get rid of competition, just assuring that the parameters are understood in winning the competition. You can't just dump waste on your neighbors.

ATOMS NOT ADAM

penchief
11-03-2008, 07:58 AM
Your side has already bankrupted everything it has touched. There is nothing left to **** up. Give me just one single thing that is better because of George Bush and the radical right. Just one.

Do you even want to hear the list of everything your narrow ideology has ****ed up?

Ultra Peanut
11-03-2008, 07:59 AM
Your side has already bankrupted everything it has touched. There is nothing left to fuck up. Give me just one single thing that is better because of George Bush and the radical right. Just one. Well, there's the econ--

Uh, we're safer--

Well at least Roe v. Wade was overt--

Earthling
11-03-2008, 08:05 AM
Your side has already bankrupted everything it has touched. There is nothing left to **** up. Give me just one single thing that is better because of George Bush and the radical right. Just one.

Do you even want to hear the list of everything your narrow ideology has ****ed up?

Well there is one..Bush and company have kept the terrorist from striking our soil in the last 6 years...I think it might be because they realized Bush was doing far more harm to this country then they EVER could on their own.

penchief
11-03-2008, 08:12 AM
Well there is one..Bush and company have kept the terrorist from striking our soil in the last 6 years...I think it might be because they realized Bush was doing far more harm to this country then they EVER could on their own.

That can hardly be considered an improvement considering that 9/11 happened on Bush's watch.

whoman69
11-03-2008, 09:40 AM
Well there is one..Bush and company have kept the terrorist from striking our soil in the last 6 years...I think it might be because they realized Bush was doing far more harm to this country then they EVER could on their own.

Considering that there had been no attack on American soil since the first Twin Towers bombing, then its about par for the course.

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 09:46 AM
Do away with the way we produce 50% of our power...freaking lunacy

What else don't we know about Barry ?

penchief
11-03-2008, 09:48 AM
What else don't we know about Barry ?

Your imagination is unlimited.

triple
11-03-2008, 10:25 AM
He's an economic genius, jacking up taxes in a recession and bankrupting employers on purpose.

Gonna be a long 4 years

MagicHef
11-03-2008, 10:29 AM
Let me sort of describe my overall policy.
What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else’s out there.
I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.
That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches.
The only thing I’ve said with respect to coal, I haven’t been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can.
It’s just that it will bankrupt them.

One thing that bothers me is the idea that money will solve our energy problems, that if we throw enough money at this, we will be able to rid ourselves of coal and other evil energy sources. The commercials on TV that are demanding 100% clean energy within 10 years make me laugh. Right now, the DOE is working with GE, Vestas, and other such companies to try to get the US to 20% wind energy by 2020, and this is a VERY ambitious goal.

Other than nuclear power, wind energy is easily the most viable alternative energy source, but it cannot solve our problems. Take a look at Wyoming: we currently get more coal from Wyoming than from anywhere else, but we do not burn the coal in Wyoming and transmit the electricity to where it is needed, we ship the coal around the country because the electric losses would render the power unusable by the time it got to any major city, save maybe Denver. Wyoming is also far and away the best source in the country for another energy resource: wind. The I-80 corridor through the Rockies is widely considered the best wind resource in the entire world, and the plains east of the Rockies are much better resources than most of the rest of the country. However, you obviously cannot ship wind around the country, the electricity must be produced on site, limiting its effectiveness.

Unfortunately, the losses in transmisson are not something that money can easily solve. People have been researching ways to limit losses for as long as we have had electricity, and there is not going to be a major breakthrough that will suddenly make building massive wind farms in Wyoming to power the country worthwhile. For now, we are limited to using poorer wind resources around the country, which is what limits the amount of power from wind to around 20% in the next 12 years.

It seems as if solar energy could be more effective, as there are major cities (LA, Phoenix) in areas that are also great solar resources. Unfortunately, solar power is much less efficient than wind or coal, and building solar plants can be cost prohibitive, given the large amount of land and equipment needed to produce the same output as a typical coal power plant.

In my opinion, if we want to get clean energy, nuclear power is the answer. France, for instance, gets 75% of its electricity from nuclear power, and is the largest net exporter of electricity in the world, from which it receives around 3 billion euros per year. Unfortunately, it seems as if our current political climate does not allow for a huge increase in the amount of nuclear power plants.

MagicHef
11-03-2008, 10:34 AM
I don't want anyone to get the idea that I am anti-wind power, it actually has more benefits than most people know about. For instance, power generation currently accounts for about 39% of our current water usage. Wind turbines use no water, which can become a huge deal in the southwest. I support building as many wind farms as make sense, I just believe that we have to look at other areas for power generation as well.

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 10:37 AM
Your imagination is unlimited.

I'm trying to imagine how high electricity rates will go if Barry increases the financial burdens on the coal industry to effectively kill the coal industry.

Living here in the Midwest, we watch train cars go by all the time with coal heading to the power plants. What if coal becomes unavailable to the power plants ? Barry did say he'd kill that industry, didn't he ?

***SPRAYER
11-03-2008, 11:14 AM
If people in Ohio and PA still vote for this lowlife, then they deserve to be unemployed.

Duck Dog
11-03-2008, 11:46 AM
And people still support this loon

Maybe they want to see Joe the Plumber go tits up too.

Jenson71
11-03-2008, 11:52 AM
I'm sorry, but coal companies going under aren't going to hurt the people in PA, except for the owners that run those companies. Those people (a good amount of them foreign companies) have been making money off the work of the coal miners for a hell of a long time. The Unions don't help. The Unions aren't doing much at all. The Unions are broken there. Those people have been grounded with the idea that they are nothing without the black dust and cheap wages that have been with their families for over a century. Don't tell me the Republicans are now starting to worry about them.

triple
11-03-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm sorry, but coal companies going under aren't going to hurt the people in PA, except for the owners that run those companies.

Really, the economy is in recession, times are tough - but all these people wouldn't be hurt if they lost their jobs?

HemiEd
11-03-2008, 11:54 AM
Do away with the way we produce 50% of our power...freaking lunacy

He would not know that, the facts are not part of his decision making.

He doesn't have enough enough experience to have any idea what he is talking about.

triple
11-03-2008, 12:09 PM
He would not know that, the facts are not part of his decision making.

He doesn't have enough enough experience to have any idea what he is talking about.

Liberals/Socialists don't care if your bills run you to the poorhouse. It makes you more dependent on the government which to them is the best possible outcome.

mlyonsd
11-03-2008, 12:12 PM
In case anyone hasn't figured out.....the dem's plan for changing this country's energy policies to match what Al Gore wants is to run the cost of current energy up so high the public is brainwashed into thinking they should give it up.

penchief
11-03-2008, 12:13 PM
Maybe they want to see Joe the Plumber go tits up too.

You mean Joe the Liar who is going to benefit more under Obama's tax plan than under McCain's?

Mecca
11-03-2008, 12:14 PM
This thread brought out just about all the retarded players of DC, congrats.

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 12:15 PM
This thread brought out just about all the retarded players of DC, congrats.

Typical response from the usual crowd...

triple
11-03-2008, 12:21 PM
You mean Joe the Liar who is going to benefit more under Obama's tax plan than under McCain's?

did you miss the part where he says he wants to become a small business owner?

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 12:23 PM
did you miss the part where he says he wants to become a small business owner?

You have to remember, to Liberals, business owners are PIGS.

Chiefnj2
11-03-2008, 12:23 PM
Drudge tried to push this story on Saturday and it went no where because the clip and what he said was taken out of context


Forget it. You are wasting your time with people who still believe that Rumseld knows exactly where the WMDs are hidden.

penchief
11-03-2008, 12:23 PM
did you miss the part where he says he wants to become a small business owner?

You mean where he said he was a plumber and was going to buy the business he works for and blah blah blah. All of which was untrue.

None of that excuses the fact that he is too stupid to realize that he is currently better off under Obama's plan than under McCain's. And would probably have the opportunity to buy that business sooner under Obama's plan than he would under McCain's.

MagicHef
11-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Hmm. This thread has turned out to be about something completely different than what I thought. Please disregard my previous posts.

Mecca
11-03-2008, 12:26 PM
Forget it. You are wasting your time with people who still believe that Rumseld knows exactly where the WMDs are hidden.

They're hidden in Cheneys ass!

penchief
11-03-2008, 12:27 PM
You have to remember, to Liberals, business owners are PIGS.

That's not true. This statement is typical of how most righties will refuse to argue on any level that doesn't keep the argument oversimplified. It's not a good vs. evil, black and white world. When you view the world that way you are too susceptible to propoganda and ideological indoctrination.

triple
11-03-2008, 12:32 PM
You mean where he said he was a plumber and was going to buy the business he works for and blah blah blah. All of which was untrue.

He said he wants to run a small business. That alone means that he should be afraid.

None of that excuses the fact that he is too stupid to realize that he is currently better off under Obama's plan than under McCain's.

Granting it for the sake of argument, he wasn't asking about today. he was asking Obama why he would cut him off at the knees simply for being an entrepreneur

And would probably have the opportunity to buy that business sooner under Obama's plan than he would under McCain's.

for the sake of argument, assuming Obama showers riches on him like you say, it doesn't matter if he buys it and is crushed under the weight of taxes. the point is not the initial investment but the business being able to survive under the weight of exorbitant small-business stifling taxes

Jenson71
11-03-2008, 12:43 PM
Really, the economy is in recession, times are tough - but all these people wouldn't be hurt if they lost their jobs?

In the long term, no.

HemiEd
11-03-2008, 12:49 PM
This thread brought out just about all the retarded players of DC, congrats.

Just curious, do hold a job?

MagicHef
11-03-2008, 01:24 PM
Hmm. This thread has turned out to be about something completely different than what I thought. Please disregard my previous posts.

Well, sarcasm doesn't work.

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 02:34 PM
That's not true. This statement is typical of how most righties will refuse to argue on any level that doesn't keep the argument oversimplified. It's not a good vs. evil, black and white world. When you view the world that way you are too susceptible to propoganda and ideological indoctrination.

You are the one susceptible to the liberal ideologies and the shades of gray.
Most business owners live in a black and white world. They have to stay alive and grow they're business and make payroll and pay their quarterly. taxes.


btw...How the hell do you spell propaganda ? Look who fucked up spelling. My god, you must be an illiterate.

Pitt Gorilla
11-03-2008, 02:39 PM
...They have to stay alive and grow they're business and make payroll and pay their quarterly. taxes.

btw...How the hell do you spell propaganda ? Look who ****ed up spelling. My god, you must be an illiterate.Nice.

Mecca
11-03-2008, 02:42 PM
Just curious, do hold a job?

Oh here we go again right......all liberals are lazy non productive people with no jobs right?

triple
11-03-2008, 02:42 PM
In the long term, no.

Do you find it interesting that he says this in San Fransisco, and not to people's faces in coal country?

Sort of like how he called those same people "bitter clingers" at another high dollar fundraiser in San Fran

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Nice.


Did you see penchief screwed up the spelling of a word ? You libs can't spell.

Bootlegged
11-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Oh here we go again right......all liberals are lazy non productive people with no jobs right?

Not all, but most.

penchief
11-03-2008, 02:47 PM
You are the one susceptible to the liberal ideologies and the shades of gray.
Most business owners live in a black and white world. They have to stay alive and grow they're business and make payroll and pay their quarterly. taxes.


btw...How the hell do you spell propaganda ? Look who ****ed up spelling. My god, you must be an illiterate.

Most businesses have to have customers before they can make any money. When republican policies gut the middle and working classes there is no consumer base to provide those customers. Consumer activity creates business which creates income for both the worker and the business owner.

There has to be water in the well before anyone can drink. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. We've had it your way for way too long and the results you promised have never materialized. The tax breaks for the wealthy have not created good paying jobs. What more proof do you want?

BTW, who hasn't mispelled a word every now and then? I mispell words all the time. Sometimes because I have a brain fart, sometimes because I'm typing too fast, and sometimes because I might think I'm spelling it correctly. That said, I don't think I've ever called anyone illiterate for mispelling a word, so what's your problem?

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 02:48 PM
Do you find it interesting that he says this in San Fransisco, and not to people's faces in coal country?

Sort of like how he called those same people "bitter clingers" at another high dollar fundraiser in San Fran


Barrys dirty little secret is that he wants the intire USA of just like San Fran.

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Most businesses have to have customers before they can make any money. When republican policies gut the middle and working classes there is no consumer base to provide those customers. Consumer activity creates business which creates income for both the worker and the entrepeneur.

There has to be water in the well before anyone can drink. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. We've had it your way for way to long and the results you promised have never materialized. The tax breaks for the wealthy have not created good paying jobs. What more proof do you want?

You don't need good paying jobs with Barry idea of economics. Just look at the free houses barry and the Acorns are giving to people with no or little means of paying for homes.

Define a "good paying job" !

jAZ
11-03-2008, 02:52 PM
Endless dishonesty.

Mecca
11-03-2008, 02:55 PM
"the Acorns" that made me laugh.

Woodrow Call
11-03-2008, 02:55 PM
Barrys dirty little secret is that he wants the intire USA of just like San Fran.

Wut skuul gaev you this grate edukatin?

penchief
11-03-2008, 02:59 PM
You don't need good paying jobs with Barry idea of economics. Just look at the free houses barry and the Acorns are giving to people with no or little means of paying for homes.

Define a "good paying job" !

A job that isn't flipping burgers at McDonalds or greeting customers at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.

And you continue to spout unsubstantiated ideological talking points instead of accurately depicting the root problems of our current economic crisis, which are trickle down class warfare, deregulation, and corporate welfare. All of which have been championed by your side of the aisle for thirty years.

So where are the results? Wages have been depressed. Jobs have been lost. Pensions have been stolen. Access to health care and education is being suppressed. And the gap between the rich and everyone else continues to grow. Where are the results?

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 03:13 PM
A job that isn't flipping burgers at McDonalds or greeting customers at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.

And you continue to spout unsubstantiated ideological talking points instead of accurately depicting the root problems of our current economic crisis, which are trickle down class warfare, deregulation, and corporate welfare. All of which have been championed by your side of the aisle for thirty years.

So where are the results? Wages have been depressed. Jobs have been lost. Pensions have been stolen. Access to health care and education is being suppressed. And the gap between the rich and everyone else continues to grow. Where are the results?

What if you have too good of a paying job ?
What amount of money is good, but then what amount is too much ?

Chief Henry
11-03-2008, 03:14 PM
Wut skuul gaev you this grate edukatin?

Hey meat head, did you see Penchief screwed up the spelling of propaganda ? What bunk did you crawl out from under ?

penchief
11-03-2008, 03:15 PM
What if you have too good of a paying job ?
What amount of money is good, but then what amount is too much ?

You didn't answer my questions. Where are the results of your superior economic ideology? Why has it always yielded the opposite results of what is promised? Why does trickle down class warfare always destroy the economy?

triple
11-03-2008, 03:53 PM
Oh here we go again right......all liberals are lazy non productive people with no jobs right?

i wouldn't call that an answer to his question

HemiEd
11-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Oh here we go again right......all liberals are lazy non productive people with no jobs right?

I am not asking all, just you. You cast the first stone.

Do you have a job?

Liking the prospect of shit for free are we?

Demonpenz
11-03-2008, 04:42 PM
A job that isn't flipping burgers at McDonalds or greeting customers at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.

And you continue to spout unsubstantiated ideological talking points instead of accurately depicting the root problems of our current economic crisis, which are trickle down class warfare, deregulation, and corporate welfare. All of which have been championed by your side of the aisle for thirty years.

So where are the results? Wages have been depressed. Jobs have been lost. Pensions have been stolen. Access to health care and education is being suppressed. And the gap between the rich and everyone else continues to grow. Where are the results?

mcdonalds and burger king is a start.

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 05:15 PM
I am not asking all, just you. You cast the first stone.

Do you have a job?

Liking the prospect of shit for free are we?

:popcorn:

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 05:21 PM
OBAMA: “You know, when I was asked earlier about the issue of coal, uh, you know — Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket. Even regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad. Because I’m capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, you know, natural gas, you name it — whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, uh, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers.”




<OBJECT height=419 width=518>

<embed src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=e46U2Gnzpr" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></OBJECT></P>

***SPRAYER
11-03-2008, 06:40 PM
Hmm. This thread has turned out to be about something completely different than what I thought. Please disregard my previous posts.


You can blame the Kos kids in college. Their parents are obviously pissing away thousands of dollars thinking that their children are learning anything.

banyon
11-03-2008, 06:45 PM
Protecting Our Environment And Addressing Climate Change: A Sound Energy Strategy Must Include A Solid Environmental Foundation

John McCain Proposes A Cap-And-Trade System That Would Set Limits On Greenhouse Gas Emissions While Encouraging The Development Of Low-Cost Compliance Options. A climate cap-and-trade mechanism would set a limit on greenhouse gas emissions and allow entities to buy and sell rights to emit, similar to the successful acid rain trading program of the early 1990s. The key feature of this mechanism is that it allows the market to decide and encourage the lowest-cost compliance options.

How Does A Cap-And-Trade System Work? A cap-and-trade system harnesses human ingenuity in the pursuit of alternatives to carbon-based fuels. Market participants are allotted total permits equal to the cap on greenhouse gas emissions. If they can invent, improve, or acquire a way to reduce their emissions, they can sell their extra permits for cash. The profit motive will coordinate the efforts of venture capitalists, corporate planners, entrepreneurs, and environmentalists on the common motive of reducing emissions.

Greenhouse Gas Emission Targets And Timetables:

2012: Return Emissions To 2005 Levels (18 Percent Above 1990 Levels)
2020: Return Emissions To 1990 Levels (15 Percent Below 2005 Levels)
2030: 22 Percent Below 1990 Levels (34 Percent Below 2005 Levels)
2050: 60 Percent Below 1990 Levels (66 Percent Below 2005 Levels)

The Cap-And-Trade System Would Allow For The Gradual Reduction Of Emissions. The cap-and-trade system would encompass electric power, transportation fuels, commercial business, and industrial business - sectors responsible for just under 90 percent of all emissions. Small businesses would be exempt. Initially, participants would be allowed to either make their own GHG reductions or purchase "offsets" - financial instruments representing a reduction, avoidance, or sequestration of greenhouse gas emissions practiced by other activities, such as agriculture - to cover 100 percent of their required reductions. Offsets would only be available through a program dedicated to ensure that all offset GHG emission reductions are real, measured and verifiable. The fraction of GHG emission reductions permitted via offsets would decline over time.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

banyon
11-03-2008, 06:46 PM
How much will your tax's go up when the BUSH TAX CUTS GO AWAY IN 2010 ?

I guess it just wouldn't be Cheef Henry's sig unless there were at least 1 spelling or grammatical error.

***SPRAYER
11-03-2008, 06:46 PM
In my opinion, if we want to get clean energy, nuclear power is the answer. France, for instance, gets 75% of its electricity from nuclear power, and is the largest net exporter of electricity in the world, from which it receives around 3 billion euros per year. Unfortunately, it seems as if our current political climate does not allow for a huge increase in the amount of nuclear power plants.

B.O. is against Nuclear energy.

***SPRAYER
11-03-2008, 06:47 PM
I'm sorry, but coal companies going under aren't going to hurt the people in PA, except for the owners that run those companies. Those people (a good amount of them foreign companies) have been making money off the work of the coal miners for a hell of a long time. The Unions don't help. The Unions aren't doing much at all. The Unions are broken there. Those people have been grounded with the idea that they are nothing without the black dust and cheap wages that have been with their families for over a century. Don't tell me the Republicans are now starting to worry about them.

I think you are way off...


Coal official calls Obama comments 'unbelievable'
11/2/2008 4:37 PM
By Chris Dickerson -Statehouse Bureau

CHARLESTON - At least one state coal industry leader said he was shocked by comments Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama made earlier this year concerning his plan to aggressively charge polluters for carbon and greenhouse gas emissions.

"What I've said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there," Obama said in a Jan. 17 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle that was made public today first on the Web site newsbusters.org, which calls itself "the leader in documenting, exposing and neutralizing liberal media bias." The story later was linked on The Drudge Report.

An audio excerpt from the interview can be found at YouTube.

"I was the first to call for a 100 percent auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter," Obama continued. "That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.

"So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."

Calls and e-mails to West Virginia Obama campaign officials seeking comment for this story were not returned as of Sunday evening.

According to the West Virginia Office of Miners' Health, Safety and Training, the coal industry provides about 40,000 direct jobs in the state, including those for miners, mine contractors, coal preparation plant employees and mine supply company workers.

West Virginia is the second largest coal-producing state in the country behind Wyoming and accounts for about 15 percent of all coal production in the United States. The Mountain State leads the nation in underground coal production and leads the nation in coal exports with over 50 million tons shipped to 23 countries. West Virginia accounts for about half of U.S. coal exports.

In addition, the coal industry pays about $70 million in property taxes in the state annually, and the Coal Severance Tax adds about $214 million into West Virginia's economy. The coal industry payroll in the state is nearly $2 billion per year, and coal is responsible for more than $3.5 billion annually in the gross state product.

"The only thing I've said with respect to coal, I haven't been some coal booster," Obama said in the San Francisco Chronicle interview. "What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as an ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it."

The senior vice president of the West Virginia Coal Association called Obama's comments "unbelievable."

"His comments are unfortunate," Chris Hamilton said Sunday, "and really reflect a very uninformed voice and perspective to coal specifically and energy generally."

Hamilton noted other times Obama and vice presidential candidate Joe Biden have made seemingly anti-coal statements.

"In Ohio recently, when Joe Biden said 'not here' about building coal-fired power plants -- this is exactly what will happen," Hamilton said. "Financing won't be directed here. It will all go aboard for plants elsewhere in the world. The United Sates is importing more coal today from Indonesia, South Africa and Colombia than we ever have.

"If we're going to create a situation where coal-fired power plants are at that much of a disadvantage, there will be new ones built. But as Biden said, just not here."

Republican presidential candidate John McCain's state director said Obama's statements are troubling, especially for West Virginians.

"I think this clearly shows the attitude the Obama-Biden ticket has toward coal," Ben Beakes said Sunday. "Rhetoric is cheap, but behind closed doors what they tell their supporters - that's what we have to take as gospel.

"They're definitely not friends of coal."

Beakes noted other examples of Obama and Biden making seemingly anti-coal statements, such as in February when Obama said he'd like to tax "dirty energy" such as coal and natural gas.

"And their cohorts in Congress make similar statements," Beakes said. "(Senate Majority Leader) Harry Reid (D-Nevada) said this summer that 'coal makes us sick.'

"This is an attitude and view that, to me, shows their hatred of coal. And therefore, their view would cost West Virginians thousands upon thousands of jobs."
Beakes touted McCain's view toward coal.

"John McCain has embraced coal," Beakes said. "He doesn't agree with everything in the coal industry, but his view of coal is positive. He will make it part of his energy policy. He's met with leaders in the coal industry and let them know that. He's sought advice from coal industry leaders.

"McCain understands that coal supports about 49 percent of our electricity in this country. He'll continue to make coal important. He wants to reduce our foreign dependency on oil."

Hamilton also said the Obama campaign needs to find varied sources for coal and energy advice.

"If they're victorious Tuesday, they'd better go to someone other than Al Gore on energy and environmental matters," he said. "They've tipped the balance way -- unnecessarily so -- toward protecting the environment."

banyon
11-03-2008, 06:47 PM
B.O. is against Nuclear energy.

Incorrect.

***SPRAYER
11-03-2008, 06:51 PM
"His comments are unfortunate," Chris Hamilton said Sunday, "and really reflect a very uninformed voice and perspective to coal specifically and energy generally."

You can say that about all of B.O.'s policies. The guy is an over-educated shithead.

banyon
11-03-2008, 07:15 PM
"His comments are unfortunate," Chris Hamilton said Sunday, "and really reflect a very uninformed voice and perspective to coal specifically and energy generally."

You can say that about all of B.O.'s policies. The guy is an over-educated shithead.

Yeah, f*ck education and all that book-learning an cipherin'!

Git us another good ol boy, yeeehaw!

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 08:45 PM
I have a feeling the American people are going to wake up on January 21st 2009 and ask themselves what did we just do? Did we know this man? Why have we not heard of this stuff before now?

And the MSM just stopped up their ears and heard only what they wanted to hear. I think talk radio, FOX news and right wing blogging is about to explode in popularity. Limbaugh's ratings may double by summer '09 if Obama is elected. There will be plenty to talk about, that's for sure.

phisherman
11-03-2008, 09:19 PM
I have a feeling the American people are going to wake up on January 21st 2009 and ask themselves what did we just do? Did we know this man? Why have we not heard of this stuff before now?

And the MSM just stopped up their ears and heard only what they wanted to hear. I think talk radio, FOX news and right wing blogging is about to explode in popularity. Limbaugh's ratings may double by summer '09 if Obama is elected. There will be plenty to talk about, that's for sure.

already looking for that silver lining eh?

Adept Havelock
11-03-2008, 09:20 PM
Yeah, f*ck education and all that book-learning an cipherin'!

Git us another good ol boy, yeeehaw!

LMAO

Velvet_Jones
11-03-2008, 09:29 PM
I was wondering when the Bayon clusterfvck of disinformation would show up on this thread. Do you remember our conversation about the only true way to enforce the Kyoto Accord? I suggested punitive fines would be the only way to enforce it. You scoffed and wanted me to show you where in the protocol was there any mention of fines. I said there was non but that will be the only way that something like this is can be implemented.

Banyon, to quote Jeremiah Write, “Your chickens have came home to roost”.

You can apologize to me later. Thanks for proving my point.

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 09:30 PM
already looking for that silver lining eh?

Not a silver lining. More like a spike up in entertainment value. Heck, even SNL will go after the One a little if he becomes President.

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 09:31 PM
I was wondering when the Bayon clusterfvck of disinformation would show up on this thread. Do you remember our conversation about the only true way to enforce the Kyoto Accord? I suggested punitive fines would be the only way to enforce it. You scoffed and wanted me to show you where in the protocol was there any mention of fines. I said there was non but that will be the only way that something like this is can be implemented.

Banyon, to quote Jeremiah Write, “Your chickens have came home to roost”.

You can apologize to me later. Thanks for proving my point.

And of course Mr. Velvetjones is referring to the coercice action of government referred to in the thread topic starter.

banyon
11-03-2008, 09:35 PM
I was wondering when the Bayon clusterfvck of disinformation would show up on this thread. Do you remember our conversation about the only true way to enforce the Kyoto Accord? I suggested punitive fines would be the only way to enforce it. You scoffed and wanted me to show you where in the protocol was there any mention of fines. I said there was non but that will be the only way that something like this is can be implemented.

Banyon, to quote Jeremiah Write, “Your chickens have came home to roost”.

You can apologize to me later. Thanks for proving my point.

So, your strategy is to point back to a thread where you were embarassed because there was nothing to back up your accusations?

I'll be honest, I've never been confronted with this argument strategy before.

Oh, and it's "Wright", so long as you are going to slander people.

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 09:39 PM
So, your strategy is to point back to a thread where you were embarassed because there was nothing to back up your accusations?

I'll be honest, I've never been confronted with this argument strategy before.

Oh, and it's "Wright", so long as you are going to slander people.

He's got ya Mr. banyon. You're just squirming now. On the merits, he's as right as right can be.

Saying he'll penalize coal as a way of 'purifying the energy industry' makes as much sense as his pledge to unilaterally disarm our nukes and not weaponize space. In other words, make the US the sacrificial lamb and hope all the other countries feel so obliged to follow. Pipe dreams.

ROYC75
11-03-2008, 09:40 PM
Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket, plus his bankrupt comments

I can buy the clean coal comments from both candidates, I can't see justice in this statement about skyrocket prices by Obama , unless he wants to do for electricity industry as Bush / Cheney did to the oil industry ?

Guess we will soon find out.

Just a stupid comment to make by Obama.

banyon
11-03-2008, 09:41 PM
He's got ya Mr. banyon. You're just squirming now. On the merits, he's as right as right can be.

Saying he'll penalize coal as a way of 'purifying the energy industry' makes as much sense as his pledge to unilaterally disarm our nukes and not weaponize space. In other words, make the US the sacrificial lamb and hope all the other countries feel so obliged to follow. Pipe dreams.

He didn't say he was penalizing coal. In fact, all he's talking about is the EXACT SAME CAP AND TRADE SYSTEM that McCain has proposed and no one in this thread cared about when I posted it.

Velvet_Jones
11-03-2008, 09:45 PM
So, your strategy is to point back to a thread where you were embarassed because there was nothing to back up your accusations?

I'll be honest, I've never been confronted with this argument strategy before.

Oh, and it's "Wright", so long as you are going to slander people.

No, this is exactly the way I said they would implement these kind of regulations - through punitive fines. Oh, and its embarrassed not "embarassed". You are doing such a good job fucking up your own argument. Keep it up spellin' Nazi.

banyon
11-03-2008, 09:50 PM
No, this is exactly the way I said they would implement these kind of regulations - through punitive fines. Oh, and its embarrassed not "embarassed". You are doing such a good job ****ing up your own argument. Keep it up spellin' Nazi.

You are correct, I made a typo. Congratulations on your discovery.

So, now you are prepared to show where we were committing ourselves to punitive fines through the Kyoto treaty?

ROYC75
11-03-2008, 09:57 PM
He didn't say he was penalizing coal. In fact, all he's talking about is the EXACT SAME CAP AND TRADE SYSTEM that McCain has proposed and no one in this thread cared about when I posted it.

It's Obama's comments about bankrupt the plant & the coal industry and the skyrocketing electric rates that is the difference, I don't recall McCain mentioning these comments.

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:01 PM
It's Obama's comments about bankrupt the plant & the coal industry and the skyrocketing electric rates that is the difference, I don't recall McCain mentioning these comments.

Really? then read the whole thread and you'll see my post about McCain and his porposal of almost the identical cap and trade system.

HonestChieffan
11-03-2008, 10:07 PM
did he "porpose" to bankrupt an industry?

Velvet_Jones
11-03-2008, 10:07 PM
You are correct, I made a typo. Congratulations on your discovery.

So, now you are prepared to show where we were committing ourselves to punitive fines through the Kyoto treaty?

You are deflecting dude. Obama is going to try to implement Kyoto type regulation. Are you paying attention or are you really refusing that this is the type of goals called for in Kyoto. You sound like a lawyer. You must be living in a virtual (or maybe real) in Western Kansas. It must suck to be you.

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:09 PM
You are deflecting dude. Obama is going to try to implement Kyoto type regulation. Are you paying attention or are you really refusing that this is the type of goals called for in Kyoto. You sound like a lawyer. You must be living in a virtual (or maybe real) in Western Kansas. It must suck to be you.

So, you still want to bring up Kyoto, but still cannot bring up a punitive fines section as you believed was incorporated within the treaty?

ROYC75
11-03-2008, 10:10 PM
Really? then read the whole thread and you'll see my post about McCain and his porposal of almost the identical cap and trade system.


OK, Can you show me where McCain said we would have skyrocketing electric rates and that he would bankrupt anybody who builds a plant that uses coal ?

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:11 PM
did he "porpose" to bankrupt an industry?

Oh, hey, you caught a typo too!

Does this make you feel better about your ideological insubstantiability and your blatant generalizations?

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:13 PM
OK, Can you show me where McCain said we would have skyrocketing electric rates and that he would bankrupt anybody who builds a plant that uses coal ?

No, but if he wants to implement the same plan, and you believe that's what Obama is implenting, then the transitive property suggests that you'd have the same concerns if it were an honest appraisal.

HonestChieffan
11-03-2008, 10:14 PM
But he didnt say he wants the same plan, you cooked that up on your own. Saying it over and over wont make it so.

ROYC75
11-03-2008, 10:16 PM
No, but if he wants to implement the same plan, and you believe that's what Obama is implenting, then the transitive property suggests that you'd have the same concerns if it were an honest appraisal.

I can't say they have the same plan on electricity when it comes to coal. I have heard people say it is similar, how so, I dunno.

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:18 PM
I can't say they have the same plan on electricity when it comes to coal. I have heard people say it is similar, how so, I dunno.

Well, I posted McCain's plan directly from his site, so if you want to be honest about it, the evidence is there right in front of you.

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:19 PM
But he didnt say he wants the same plan, you cooked that up on your own. Saying it over and over wont make it so.

perhaps you could elucidate the differences between the two plans?

Oh.

ROYC75
11-03-2008, 10:33 PM
Protecting Our Environment And Addressing Climate Change: A Sound Energy Strategy Must Include A Solid Environmental Foundation

John McCain Proposes A Cap-And-Trade System That Would Set Limits On Greenhouse Gas Emissions While Encouraging The Development Of Low-Cost Compliance Options. A climate cap-and-trade mechanism would set a limit on greenhouse gas emissions and allow entities to buy and sell rights to emit, similar to the successful acid rain trading program of the early 1990s. The key feature of this mechanism is that it allows the market to decide and encourage the lowest-cost compliance options.

How Does A Cap-And-Trade System Work? A cap-and-trade system harnesses human ingenuity in the pursuit of alternatives to carbon-based fuels. Market participants are allotted total permits equal to the cap on greenhouse gas emissions. If they can invent, improve, or acquire a way to reduce their emissions, they can sell their extra permits for cash. The profit motive will coordinate the efforts of venture capitalists, corporate planners, entrepreneurs, and environmentalists on the common motive of reducing emissions.

Greenhouse Gas Emission Targets And Timetables:

2012: Return Emissions To 2005 Levels (18 Percent Above 1990 Levels)
2020: Return Emissions To 1990 Levels (15 Percent Below 2005 Levels)
2030: 22 Percent Below 1990 Levels (34 Percent Below 2005 Levels)
2050: 60 Percent Below 1990 Levels (66 Percent Below 2005 Levels)

The Cap-And-Trade System Would Allow For The Gradual Reduction Of Emissions. The cap-and-trade system would encompass electric power, transportation fuels, commercial business, and industrial business - sectors responsible for just under 90 percent of all emissions. Small businesses would be exempt. Initially, participants would be allowed to either make their own GHG reductions or purchase "offsets" - financial instruments representing a reduction, avoidance, or sequestration of greenhouse gas emissions practiced by other activities, such as agriculture - to cover 100 percent of their required reductions. Offsets would only be available through a program dedicated to ensure that all offset GHG emission reductions are real, measured and verifiable. The fraction of GHG emission reductions permitted via offsets would decline over time.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

Again, Where does McCain say he will bankrupt the coal industry or any plant. Where is the electricity rates skyrocketing ?

banyon
11-03-2008, 10:33 PM
Again, Where does McCain say he will bankrupt the coal industry or any plant. Where is the electricity rates skyrocketing ?

Again, if its the same policy, why are you so terrified?

ROYC75
11-03-2008, 10:46 PM
Again, if its the same policy, why are you so terrified?

I've done said, I'm not sure it is. You say it, others say it , but who's to say they will implement it the same.

I'm saying, Obama made those statements..... McCain hasn't.

That is what has people uneasy with it.

KCJohnny
11-03-2008, 10:57 PM
The National Mining Association said in its own press release:

"Bankrupting the coal industry would be tantamount to bankrupting the American economy. Coal generates half of our nation's electricity, employs hundreds of thousands of Americans and provides millions of dollars in revenue to coal states... Destroying the coal industry would break America's energy backbone. It would raise the cost of energy for households and businesses throughout the country and create massive job losses. We trust the candidates understand this and do not believe that destroying the coal industry is part of the change we need."


Obama's rationale:
"I voted against the Clear Skies Bill. In fact, I was the deciding vote. Despite the fact that I'm a coal state. And that half my state thought that I had thoroughly betrayed them. Because I think clean air is critical and global warming is critical. But this notion of no coal, I think, is an illusion. Because the fact of the matter is is that right now we are getting a lot of our energy from coal. And China is building a coal-powered plant once a week. So what we have to do then is figure out how can we use coal without emitting greenhouse gases and carbon. And how can we sequester that carbon and capture it. If we can't, then we're gonna still be working on alternatives.

link (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/energywire/2008/11/the_last_minute_obama-mccain_c.html)

FWIW, I think McCain is 100% wrong on global warming, alleged greenhouse gas threats, carbon footprints and all the other new age hooey surrounding the myth of man-made 'climate change'. If McCain votes for any legislation that is based on the speculations generated by global warming theorists, I will protest against his policies just as I would against Obama's.

Mecca
11-03-2008, 11:07 PM
You guys do understand ending your campaign talking about coal is generally not a good thing to do right? It just doesn't come off well.

penchief
11-04-2008, 08:04 AM
I have a feeling the American people are going to wake up on January 21st 2009 and ask themselves what did we just do? Did we know this man? Why have we not heard of this stuff before now?

And the MSM just stopped up their ears and heard only what they wanted to hear. I think talk radio, FOX news and right wing blogging is about to explode in popularity. Limbaugh's ratings may double by summer '09 if Obama is elected. There will be plenty to talk about, that's for sure.

I have a feeling that Obama is going to be just as competent in his presidential duties as he has been during his campaign. Reasonable Americans, unlike you, have rejected the smear tactics and the character attacks that have come to define the republican party.

If Rush Limbaugh decides he is going to give Obama the Bill Clinton treatment then I think he will be doing so at his own peril. Just like this election will most likely end the republican party's use of veiled racism to divide this country, a successful Obama presidency has the very real possibility of providing the Rush Limbaughs of the world enough rope to hang themselves.

It is my hope that this election and Obama's ensuing presidency will act as the death knell for the politics of fear and hatred that has propelled the radical right wing of this country.

RIP Rush Limbaugh.