Obama: The war in Iraq was a mistake

[KCJohnny]

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99% of you will not watch this incredible scene from the 1946 7-Academy Awards winning film about vets coming home, "The Best Years of Our Lives (http:http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=aq2huwJJTOQ//)".

But for the 1% who watch, you will feel the pride in your heart that our grandfathers felt after winning WW II and you will know the disgusting feeling of those who say we fought and bled and died in vain in Iraq.

[Saulbadguy]

I watched it. Good clip. However, the war in Iraq is still a mistake.

[Demonpenz]

I watched it. Good clip. However, the war in Iraq is still a mistake.

duh

[the Talking Can]

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99% of you will not watch this incredible scene from the 1946 7-Academy Awards winning film about vets coming home, "The Best Years of Our Lives (http:http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=aq2huwJJTOQ//)".

But for the 1% who watch, you will feel the pride in your heart that our grandfathers felt after winning WW II and you will know the disgusting feeling of those who say we fought and bled and died in vain in Iraq.

cry bitch

[KCJohnny]

cry bitch

I did cry, and I am not ashamed. You are not worthy of such pride.

[Saulbadguy]

I did cry, and I am not ashamed. You are not worthy of such pride.

Man, it's like the gift that keeps on giving!

[Messier]

"The Best Years of Our Lives" is a great movie, one of my favorites. You do know that it's kind of an anti-war film?

[Donger]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.

[Messier]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.

Neither can I.

[KCJohnny]

"The Best Years of Our Lives" is a great movie, one of my favorites. You do know that it's kind of an anti-war film?

Not at all.

I openly acknowledge and thank all those on Chiefs Planet who have wished us well in Iraq and Afghanistan. This short film clip really drives home how we combat veterans feel when anyone, especially an elected official disparages our service. It is personally very painful and unneccessary. We have already experienced so much. And then some arm chair QBs want to second guess our sacrifices?

I will try to overlook the petty cheap shots leveled by the enemies of veterans. But thank God for you few, you small minority who honor our sacrifices.

Notice how Obama supporters never address the issue of what the world would be like with Saddam and his sons still in power...

[Dave Lane]

Yes he is right can I get a second?

[Messier]

Not at all.

It is. William Wyler intended it to be a comment on the mental as well as physical injuries the war causes.

[Swanman]

You can say the Iraq war was a mistake but still honor and appreciate all that the armed forces do for us. The two are not mutually exclusive. I admire our troops and the jobs they are doing, I just don't like that they are doing it in Iraq.

[KCJohnny]

It is. William Wyler intended it to be a comment on the mental as well as physical injuries the war causes.

Maybe. But the point is that cheap shot artists only hurt our returning vets. Those who spout big talk and ultimate solutions but have not borne the burden of battle are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[Saulbadguy]

How does the guy wipe his ass with the hooks?

[Messier]

Not at all.

I openly acknowledge and thank all those on Chiefs Planet who have wished us well in Iraq and Afghanistan. This short film clip really drives home how we combat veterans feel when anyone, especially an elected official disparages our service. It is personally very painful and unneccessary. We have already experienced so much. And then some arm chair QBs want to second guess our sacrifices?

I will try to overlook the petty cheap shots leveled by the enemies of veterans. But thank God for you few, you small minority who honor our sacrifices.

Notice how Obama supporters never address the issue of what the world would be like with Saddam and his sons still in power...

I don't think the world would be much different than it is now. We'd probably have a stronger foot hold in Afghanistan, and perhaps already have Bin Laden.

[banyon]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.

could have been accomplished with a coup or assassination like we've done elsewhere.

[Duck Dog]

You can say the Iraq war was a mistake but still honor and appreciate all that the armed forces do for us. The two are not mutually exclusive. I admire our troops and the jobs they are doing, I just don't like that they are doing it in Iraq.

Amen, Brotha. This thread is beaming with dipshits.

[KCJohnny]

How does the guy wipe his ass with the hooks?

You are an affront to all veterans. May you look Almighty God in the eyes and account for your wickedness.

[HolyHandgernade]

Tell me this KCJ, why can't we consider Iraq a victory? The military aspect has been a success, it was the policy department that let us down. Why can't we celebrate that we got rid of an oppressive dictator and gave a people a real shot at freedom and democracy IF THEY EMBRACE IT, and call it victory? It seems if anyone is setting this up as a failure, it is you and others who insist on some kind of irrational concept of what victory "is". We want to go, and Iraq wants us to go. Isn't it time to hand it over to them and declare victory?

-HH

[penchief]

Well duh. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was clearly a colossal blunder.

SHOCK AND AWE, BABY!!!

[Saulbadguy]

You are an affront to all veterans. May you look Almighty God in the eyes and account for your wickedness.

I could say the same thing about you, and I will (and have).

[PRIEST]

Tell me this KCJ, why can't we consider Iraq a victory? The military aspect has been a success, it was the policy department that let us down. Why can't we celebrate that we got rid of an oppressive dictator and gave a people a real shot at freedom and democracy IF THEY EMBRACE IT, and call it victory? It seems if anyone is setting this up as a failure, it is you and others who insist on some kind of irrational concept of what victory "is". We want to go, and Iraq wants us to go. Isn't it time to hand it over to them and declare victory?

-HH



Exactly :bravo:

[KCJohnny]

Tell me this KCJ, why can't we consider Iraq a victory? The military aspect has been a success, it was the policy department that let us down. Why can't we celebrate that we got rid of an oppressive dictator and gave a people a real shot at freedom and democracy IF THEY EMBRACE IT, and call it victory? It seems if anyone is setting this up as a failure, it is you and others who insist on some kind of irrational concept of what victory "is". We want to go, and Iraq wants us to go. Isn't it time to hand it over to them and declare victory?

-HH

The problem is you and the disrespectful others like you disparage the heroic sacrifices of our bravest and best veterans and encourage our enemies that data mine the American internet.

You have never spent a minute in Iraq, you have no idea what is actually going on there, you get your talking points from people who have zero experience there like Kieth Olberman and you are emboldening our enemies.

Please, by all means, flame me, but you and President elect Obama are our enemies' greatest hope.

[Saulbadguy]

The problem is you and the disrespectful others like you disparage the heroic sacrifices of our bravest and best veterans and encourage our enemies that data mine the American internet.

You have never spent a minute in Iraq, you have no idea what is actually going on there, you get your talking points from people who have zero experience there like Kieth Olberman and you are emboldening our enemies.

Please, by all means, flame me, but you and President elect Obama are our enemies' greatest hope.

Data mine the American internet? :clap:

[Amnorix]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.

QFT

[KCJohnny]

Data mine the American internet? :clap:

This, ladies and gentlemen, demonstrates the dangerous partisan naivete of the democrats.

:shake:

[Amnorix]

could have been accomplished with a coup or assassination like we've done elsewhere.

FWIW I believe that route was foreclosed to us. Assassinating Saddam would have been extraordinarily, extraordinarily hard. He was paranoid, and his closest advisors, etc. were loyal to him.

Heck, we had enough trouble finding him even when we freaking invaded.

[Saulbadguy]

This, ladies and gentlemen, demonstrates the dangerous partisan naivete of the democrats.

:shake:

I'm not a democrat, FWIW.

[Otter]

could have been accomplished with a coup or assassination like we've done elsewhere.

Using a shotgun to kill a fly comes to mind.

[StcChief]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.agreed...

but how about all the Iraqi's people that are free from the tyranny, can now "really" vote for their future.

Let's see how long the Iraq gov't can grasp and hold freedom for it's people.

[Donger]

agreed...

but how about all the Iraqi's people that are free from the tyranny, can now "really" vote for their future.

Let's see how long the Iraq gov't can grasp and hold freedom for it's people.

There's never been a successful Arabic democracy. I, too, hope that Iraq becomes one, but I have my doubts (and have from the beginning).

[KCJohnny]

I'm not a democrat, FWIW.

I agree. Marxists deserve a separate category.

[penchief]

agreed...

but how about all the Iraqi's people that are free from the tyranny, can now "really" vote for their future.

Let's see how long the Iraq gov't can grasp and hold freedom for it's people.

Yes, the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis that have been killed and maimed as the result of our invasion and occupation are free from tyranny.

[KCJohnny]

Please watch the short video. Without the short video, this discussion is just so much left vs right diatribe (with the right winnng).

[penchief]

I agree. Marxists deserve a separate category.

Still ranting about Marxism? You are a very small and petty person, Johnny.

[BigChiefFan]

I agree. Marxists deserve a separate category.
That's president elect to you, grunt.

[StcChief]

Yes, the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis that have been killed and maimed as the result of our invasion and occupation are free from tyranny.Saddam was killing them by slow death for years. Freedom is not free.

[Saulbadguy]

Please watch the short video. Without the short video, this discussion is just so much left vs right diatribe (with the right winnng).

Watched it. Thought it was a good clip. Doesn't apply to today.

[KCJohnny]

Watched it. Thought it was a good clip. Doesn't apply to today.

Wrong. I am a vet and a member of vet groups. You are on the outside looking in, and not seeing what is really there.

[donkhater]

As far as I can tell, the Bush Doctrine for America's foreign policy is to keep America safe by making the rest of the world democratic. There are some really BIG flaws in this neocon thinking that was responsible for leading us into situations like Iraq.

1. Democracy is an idea. An idea that America was founded on. Most every other nation in the world is founded on a cultural or ethnic history. For them to accept the idea of democracy it has to come from THEM, not at the end of a gun. So you say other coutries truly want democracy and we're only trying to help? Next point---

2. The funny thing about democracy is that the country gets to decide how they run it. I think it is incredible that the rest of the world viewed our elections with such interest, but I'll be damned if any of them should have a say so in who we elect. The same should be true for truly democratic nations. We oust a dictator then say so-and-so is the one you should elect as president. Hypocrites anyone?

The US should remove itself from these world affairs and stop acting as the world's police force. We can't afford it and all it accomplishes is either:

1. a dependancy by those nations on the American tax payer to sustain it.

OR

2. nations and radicals who are pissed off we are butting into their business

Restore the sovereignty of the US. Bring ALL the troops home, control our borders and become the symbol for opportunity and freedom.

[Saulbadguy]

Wrong. I am a vet and a member of vet groups. You are on the outside looking in, and not seeing what is realy there.

I'd argue the opposite, I have a more objective view of things.

[penchief]

The problem is you and the disrespectful others like you disparage the heroic sacrifices of our bravest and best veterans and encourage our enemies that data mine the American internet.

You have never spent a minute in Iraq, you have no idea what is actually going on there, you get your talking points from people who have zero experience there like Kieth Olberman and you are emboldening our enemies.

Please, by all means, flame me, but you and President elect Obama are our enemies' greatest hope.

Nobody's disparaging the troops so you should stop lying. You are upset because we are disparaging the dishonesty and incompetence of your party's leadership. You are upset because deep in your heart you know that Bush is a liar and a phony. Deep in your heart you know that this war was for the ideologues and the war profiteers.

And even though you support the reasoning for Shock and Awe, you still want to accuse Americans who don't of disparaging their own sons and daughters, their own brothers and sisters, and their own mothers and fathers.

You sir, are not only a hypocrite. You are a disgrace to your uniform and your God.

[penchief]

Saddam was killing them by slow death for years. Freedom is not free.

With the WMD that we supplied him?

Also, shouldn't the people who aren't free decide if they want to do for freedom or not? And is it really freedom when someone is imposing it on you?

BTW, I wasn't against getting rid of Saddam. It's just that we went about it in a ridiculously self-serving and counterproductive way.

[KCJohnny]

You sir, are not only a hypocrite. You are a disgrace to your uniform and your God.

You are out on a limb. Our government has decorated me for bravery in combat. You just post arrogant presuppositions on the internet. I am also a leader in our Church, but thanks for defining yourself for the benefit of our readers!

:D

Internet bravery deserves awards, too!

[penchief]

You are out on a limb. Our government has decorated me for bravery in combat. You just post arrogant presuppositions on the internet. I am also a leader in our Church, but thanks for defining yourself for the benefit of our readers!

:D

Internet bravery deserves awards, too!

They haven't decorated you for your words, your dishonesty, or your lack of integrity. If they saw half of what you wrote on this board they'd be stripping those decorations off your chest.

[Donger]

I don't get it. Why can't you support our troops but acknowledge that the mission is FUBAR?

What about Haiti or Bosnia?

[KCJohnny]

They haven't decorated you for your words, your dishonesty, or your lack of integrity. If they saw half of what you wrote on this board they'd be stripping those decorations off your chest.

ROFL

And you've done what for our country?

[penchief]

ROFL

Have you ever really thought about how the fascist shit you write sounds to other people?

[dirk digler]

There's never been a successful Arabic democracy. I, too, hope that Iraq becomes one, but I have my doubts (and have from the beginning).

Donger you have been against the Iraq War? I never knew that until now

[J Diddy]

ROFL

And you've done what for our country?

I think it is incredibly narrow minded to think that the only contribution that counts for this country is one made in a uniform. I have not served, due to medical reasons, but every single one of my brothers have.

There is more to making America great then just the valiant sacrifices from our military.

[Donger]

Donger you have been against the Iraq War? I never knew that until now

I thought it was going to be a clusterf*ck from the beginning, yes.

[KCJohnny]

Have you ever really thought about how the fascist shit you write sounds to other people?


NO! ROFL

[Saulbadguy]

I don't get it. Why can't you support our troops but acknowledge that the mission is FUBAR?

What about Haiti or Bosnia?

Can and do that.

[whoman69]

Not at all.

I openly acknowledge and thank all those on Chiefs Planet who have wished us well in Iraq and Afghanistan. This short film clip really drives home how we combat veterans feel when anyone, especially an elected official disparages our service. It is personally very painful and unneccessary. We have already experienced so much. And then some arm chair QBs want to second guess our sacrifices?

I will try to overlook the petty cheap shots leveled by the enemies of veterans. But thank God for you few, you small minority who honor our sacrifices.

Notice how Obama supporters never address the issue of what the world would be like with Saddam and his sons still in power...

It is not the job of the United States to intiate regime change. The United States had zero to worry about from Iraq on a military basis. He did not have the ability to attack his neighbors either. The terroristic aspect has been debunked by two different bipartisan committes one led by Bush Sr.'s former sec of state. It was only after we invaded that Iraq became a haven for terrorists. We left the real war in Afghanistan and allow Osama bin Laden to escape. If you truly believe that America should replace all the bad leaders in the world, then we have only begun this war. If you believe that then we have to also invade North Korea, Iran and China and if Putin keeps on at his pace, Russia.

[KCJohnny]

I think it is incredibly narrow minded to think that the only contribution that counts for this country is one made in a uniform. I have not served, due to medical reasons, but every single one of my brothers have.

There is more to making America great then just the valiant sacrifices from our military.

Please, by all means name some. I can. And they would reject your liberal idea of 'service'.

[Saulbadguy]

Please, by all means name some. I can. And they would reject your liberal idea of 'service'.

Many of the posters here are public servants. By definition of that term, they serve the taxpayers and the country.

[KCJohnny]

ROFLMany of the posters here are public servants. By definition of that term, they serve the taxpayers and the country.

ROFL

[J Diddy]

Please, by all means name some. I can. And they would reject your liberal idea of 'service'.

Jesus are you so dense to think your contribution to this country is the only thing that matters?

Get over yourself.

[Taco John]

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99% of you will not watch this incredible scene from the 1946 7-Academy Awards winning film about vets coming home, "The Best Years of Our Lives (http:http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=aq2huwJJTOQ//)".

But for the 1% who watch, you will feel the pride in your heart that our grandfathers felt after winning WW II and you will know the disgusting feeling of those who say we fought and bled and died in vain in Iraq.



It's not the fault of the soldiers that the Iraq war was a mistake.

[KCJohnny]

It's not the fault of the soldiers that the Iraq war was a mistake.

Obviously, you did not watch the vid.


Next?

[dirk digler]

I thought it was going to be a clusterf*ck from the beginning, yes.

I honestly never knew that.

[J Diddy]

Obviously, you did not watch the vid.


Next?

according to your definition he's a 99 percenter, include me in that class too

[dirk digler]

Please, by all means name some. I can. And they would reject your liberal idea of 'service'.

There is alot of ways like being a police officer, fireman, first responders, teachers, and doctors

[Saulbadguy]

ROFL

ROFL

And there job is just as important as yours. Don't you forget that, your job is to serve the country, just like them.

[KCJohnny]

There is alot of ways like being a police officer, fireman, first responders, teachers, and doctors

All who's service we honor here in the USA - yet to keep us and our allies safe, we need a strategic deployable credible threat - such as the 82nd Airborne Division - to keep our enemies honest.

I have nothing else to say. My Army records speak for themselves, you internet cowboys go ahead and disparage my service, I am happy to share the same public esteem as the honorable John McCain.

[Taco John]

You have never spent a minute in Iraq, you have no idea what is actually going on there, you get your talking points from people who have zero experience there like Kieth Olberman and you are emboldening our enemies.



Johnny, we're Americans. Americans don't care what's going on in Iraq. They never have. They never will. They care what's going on in their own back yards. You can't blame Americans for not caring about a war that we have no business being in. Your anger with the American public is misplaced. It was your faith in Bush that was misplaced.

[dirk digler]

All who's service we honor here in the USA - yet to keep us and our allies safe, we need a strategic deployable credible threat - such as the 82nd Airborne Division - to keep our enemies honest.

I have nothing else to say. My Army records speak for themselves, you internet cowboys go ahead and disparage my service, I am happy to share the same public esteem as the honorable John McCain.

Johnny I have never once disparaged your service or any other people's service. I served in the USMC so I understand some of your views.

But you also have to respect other people's views as well.

[Donger]

All who's service we honor here in the USA - yet to keep us and our allies safe, we need a strategic deployable credible threat - such as the 82nd Airborne Division - to keep our enemies honest.

I have nothing else to say. My Army records speak for themselves, you internet cowboys go ahead and disparage my service, I am happy to share the same public esteem as the honorable John McCain.

Who has disparaged your service?

[KCJohnny]

Johnny, we're Americans. Americans don't care what's going on in Iraq. They never have. They never will. They care what's going on in their own back yards. You can't blame Americans for not caring about a war that we have no business being in. Your anger with the American public is misplaced. It was your faith in Bush that was misplaced.

BULLSHIT! Your arrogance is exposed. You think you know what we think about Iraq? You are arrogantly wrong!

You may be a selfish isolationist, but I work everyday with Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines who believe in what we are doing based on the eye-witness asessment of the results.

Your despicable and presumptuous assertions about the military are so much EMPTY RHETORIC as we belive in the causes of our nation and risk our lives for the same.

You may be an ostrich-in-the-sand isolationsist, but you have NO RIGHT to paint all military members with your pussy attempt at foreign policy.

[Taco John]

Johnny, you're being a petulant kid. You do the uniform a great disservice when you create threads like this and take your angst out on the people. Nobody in this thread has disparaged your, or any other soldiers service.

[KCJohnny]

Johnny, you're being a petulant kid. You do the uniform a great disservice when you create threads like this and take your angst out on the people. Nobody in this thread has disparaged your, or any other soldiers service.

Can you read?

[Taco John]

BULLSHIT! Your arrogance is exposed. You think you know what we think about Iraq? You are arrogantly wrong!

You may be a selfish isolationist, but I work everyday with Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines who believe in what we are doing based on the eye-witness asessment of the results.

Your despicable and presumptuous assertions about the military are so much EMPTY RHETORIC as we belive in the causes of our nation and risk our lives for the same.

You may be an ostrich-in-the-sand isolationsist, but you have NO RIGHT to paint all military members with your pussy attempt at foreign policy.


Actually, I'm right if what you wrote above is accurate. I'm sure that there are plenty of troops who think what is going on in Iraq is worthwhile. I, never spoke for the military. I was speaking for the people - and what I said is accurate. The American people by and large think the Iraq war was an unecessary mistake.

[Donger]

KCJohnny, did you think that getting involved in Haiti or Bosnia were mistakes? Somalia?

[Otter]

I don't get it. Why can't you support our troops but acknowledge that the mission is FUBAR?

What about Haiti or Bosnia?

Somalia? Just tossing another FUBAR out there.

[Taco John]

KCJohnny, did you think that getting involved in Haiti or Bosnia were mistakes? Somalia?

A very good question.

Johnny?

[patteeu]

As far as I can tell, the Bush Doctrine for America's foreign policy is to keep America safe by making the rest of the world democratic. There are some really BIG flaws in this neocon thinking that was responsible for leading us into situations like Iraq.

1. Democracy is an idea. An idea that America was founded on. Most every other nation in the world is founded on a cultural or ethnic history. For them to accept the idea of democracy it has to come from THEM, not at the end of a gun. So you say other coutries truly want democracy and we're only trying to help? Next point---

2. The funny thing about democracy is that the country gets to decide how they run it. I think it is incredible that the rest of the world viewed our elections with such interest, but I'll be damned if any of them should have a say so in who we elect. The same should be true for truly democratic nations. We oust a dictator then say so-and-so is the one you should elect as president. Hypocrites anyone?

The US should remove itself from these world affairs and stop acting as the world's police force. We can't afford it and all it accomplishes is either:

1. a dependancy by those nations on the American tax payer to sustain it.

OR

2. nations and radicals who are pissed off we are butting into their business

Restore the sovereignty of the US. Bring ALL the troops home, control our borders and become the symbol for opportunity and freedom.

I'd be all for this approach if we could count on every other country in the world abiding by the same philosophy, but we can't.

I too am skeptical about the democratization aspect of the Bush foreign policy, but the middle east is too important to our way of life to simply leave and put our future in the hands of the next power that comes along to fill the vacuum (Russia? Iran? China? Sunni Islamist extremists?). If democratization fails then we need to try something else (just as democratization is a change from the previous failed policy of stability), but that something else shouldn't be isolation, IMO.

[patteeu]

It is not the job of the United States to intiate regime change. The United States had zero to worry about from Iraq on a military basis. He did not have the ability to attack his neighbors either. The terroristic aspect has been debunked by two different bipartisan committes one led by Bush Sr.'s former sec of state. It was only after we invaded that Iraq became a haven for terrorists. We left the real war in Afghanistan and allow Osama bin Laden to escape. If you truly believe that America should replace all the bad leaders in the world, then we have only begun this war. If you believe that then we have to also invade North Korea, Iran and China and if Putin keeps on at his pace, Russia.

Saddam's ties to al Qaeda by way of his collaborative relationship with Ayman al Zawahiri's Egyptian Jihad organization and the non-collaborative overtures between his government and al Qaeda itself have been established by the post-invasion studies. You're reading from an old, flawed playbook.

[dirk digler]

Actually, I'm right if what you wrote above is accurate. I'm sure that there are plenty of troops who think what is going on in Iraq is worthwhile. I, never spoke for the military. I was speaking for the people - and what I said is accurate. The American people by and large think the Iraq war was an unecessary mistake.

You are right TJ. In all the polls released last night only 10% cared about Iraq as the main issue.

[Sully]

There is alot of ways like being a police officer, fireman, first responders, teachers, and doctors

Ministers, entertainers, scientists, parents, politicians, authors, historians...the list could go on forever.

[Radar Chief]

You are right TJ. In all the polls released last night only 10% cared about Iraq as the main issue.

If no one cared about Iraq, then why did you guys blow your head gaskets over it?

[dirk digler]

If no one cared about Iraq, then why did you guys blow your head gaskets over it?

I was talking about the election. The economy was the #1 issue by 62%, Iraq was second at 10%.

[Laz]

You can say the Iraq war was a mistake but still honor and appreciate all that the armed forces do for us. The two are not mutually exclusive. I admire our troops and the jobs they are doing, I just don't like that they are doing it in Iraq.

well said

[Bowser]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.

Absolutely. Afghanistan was a good idea, occupying Iraq and building the megabase was not.

[Ultra Peanut]

Johnny, Obama's opposition to a war that was initially rather popular and turned out to be a horrible idea was one of his big selling points. We know.

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.... what?!

Donger? Did you hit your head in a car accident, or something?

[Donger]

Johnny, Obama's opposition to a war that was initially rather popular and turned out to be a horrible idea was one of his big selling points. We know.

... what?!

Donger? Did you hit your head in a car accident, or something?

No.

[Ultra Peanut]

No.God, it's so weird to agree with you about something. It feels... scandalous.

[penchief]

ROFL

And you've done what for our country?

I served my country but what does that have to do with you being a fascist?

[penchief]

NO! ROFL

Why are you laughing? You think that a picture of you in uniform proves that you're not a fascist? I'm beginning to believe I'm actually dealing with someone who has a bona fide deficiency?

[penchief]

ROFL

ROFL

Okay, I'm finally going to break down and say it. I can't bite my tongue anymore. You are a moron.

[KCJohnny]

Tell me this KCJ, why can't we consider Iraq a victory? The military aspect has been a success, it was the policy department that let us down. Why can't we celebrate that we got rid of an oppressive dictator and gave a people a real shot at freedom and democracy IF THEY EMBRACE IT, and call it victory? It seems if anyone is setting this up as a failure, it is you and others who insist on some kind of irrational concept of what victory "is". We want to go, and Iraq wants us to go. Isn't it time to hand it over to them and declare victory?

-HH

That seems reasonable but not realistic. I was in Baghdad in February and while things are drastically improved, the job is far from finished. GEN Petraeus says the gains are "fragile and reversible". You also have to understand the need for Iraqi politicians to look tough, independent and against the 'occupation'. There are Iraqi elections approaching. Of course they are going to say things that seem to indicate a majority of Iraqis want us to leave and leave soon. But behind closed doors they are almost to a man asking us to stay until 2012 and even beyond. The Iraqis have made meteoric progress - but their military lacks infrastructure, training academies, an air force, they have almost no logistics architecture, no militray intelligence, aviation, etc... that kind of mature force takes time to develop. Meanwhile the Iranians are looking to exploit any perceived weakness in the Baghdad government.

As far as victory, of course the Coalition Forces are victorious. But it took a General Petraeus to really implement a theater-wide strategy for counterinsurgency operations to make the military gains into political progress. Our troops are involved in Iraqi politics, governance, economics, education, social services in unprecedented levels. All you guys see on TV is patrolling US troops and ISF. There's waaaay more to it than shooting bad guys. And we are getting closer to the conditions that would warrant a gradual retrograde of US forces.

But it has nothing to do with Obama's pledges of 16 month pull outs.

[Coach]

Invading Iraq was a mistake. Other than Saddam Hussein being dead, I can't think of one other positive.

Agreed 100%. If the US found "actual" WMD's that President Bush was claiming, then maybe or maybe that this wasn't a mistake to invade. It'd be up to debate.

But since there is no WMD's ever to be found, and like you said, other than toppling Saddam Hussein and his two sons, Uday and Qusay. But other than that, I'm having hard time finding positives out of this wrongful war.

[KCJohnny]

It is not the job of the United States to intiate regime change. The United States had zero to worry about from Iraq on a military basis. He did not have the ability to attack his neighbors either. The terroristic aspect has been debunked by two different bipartisan committes one led by Bush Sr.'s former sec of state. It was only after we invaded that Iraq became a haven for terrorists. We left the real war in Afghanistan and allow Osama bin Laden to escape. If you truly believe that America should replace all the bad leaders in the world, then we have only begun this war. If you believe that then we have to also invade North Korea, Iran and China and if Putin keeps on at his pace, Russia.

Regime change in Iraq became the policy of the US Government under president Clinton in OCT 1998.

We had 90,000 forces in the region containing Saddam. We were enforcing UN mandated No Fly Zones in north and southern Iraq to protect the Kurds and Shia from brutal recriminations. Our air craft were attacked more than 500x in 2002 alone. Saddam was bilking the UN to the tune of $20 billion on the ill-advised Food-for-Oil program. Tens of thousands of Iraqis were being killed by Saddam in mass executions. He attacked Iran, Kuwait and Israel. Ansar al Islam (Al Qaeda subsidiary) was operating in Ramadi as early as 1999. His sons were next in line to keep it all going.

He failed to comply with UN Resolution 144(1 ?). His own generals believed he had WMD. The whole world believed it. The attached pic is me sitting on his throne in his presidential palace. Look at the mural behind the throne. What does Saddam want you to believe?

Lastly, Obama got a free pass by never having to say what he would do with Saddam and his sons still in power. Because if Obama's suggestions were followed, Saddam would still be in the game.

[HolyHandgernade]

That seems reasonable but not realistic. I was in Baghdad in February and while things are drastically improved, the job is far from finished. GEN Petraeus says the gains are "fragile and reversible". You also have to understand the need for Iraqi politicians to look tough, independent and against the 'occupation'. There are Iraqi elections approaching. Of course they are going to say things that seem to indicate a majority of Iraqis want us to leave and leave soon. But behind closed doors they are almost to a man asking us to stay until 2012 and even beyond. The Iraqis have made meteoric progress - but their military lacks infrastructure, training academies, an air force, they have almost no logistics architecture, no militray intelligence, aviation, etc... that kind of mature force takes time to develop. Meanwhile the Iranians are looking to exploit any perceived weakness in the Baghdad government.

As far as victory, of course the Coalition Forces are victorious. But it took a General Petraeus to really implement a theater-wide strategy for counterinsurgency operations to make the military gains into political progress. Our troops are involved in Iraqi politics, governance, economics, education, social services in unprecedented levels. All you guys see on TV is patrolling US troops and ISF. There's waaaay more to it than shooting bad guys. And we are getting closer to the conditions that would warrant a gradual retrograde of US forces.

But it has nothing to do with Obama's pledges of 16 month pull outs.

Thank you for the thoughtful post, I don't say that sarcastically.

I believe your assessments of the situation, and that they should be considered, I just think they should be considered as a true but partial situation. Sometimes, when one is close to the situation, it actually makes it harder to look at it in a more dispassionate, but more encompassing format. Perhaps nuances, political and cultural, which do not reveal themselves out in the open, are also behind prognostications on either side, how long the U.S. should remain, and what it means to "remain". I imagine, that if Iraq is serious about wanting to spread their wings, their intent is not to have us completely gone, but that does not mean we need to be pumping billions into their welfare. Perhaps their worries and projections reflect financial considerations as well as security ones.

I just think sometimes, you got to put the person/enterprise/state out there, and let them go. Sort of like me training my daughter how to drive, or a new controller how to separate airplanes. Sure, it would be a lot less stress on me, and a lot safer, if I directed every move. But if I don't let them go a bit, if I don't let them get themselves into a few situations, they never discover the ability to work themselves out of it to a successful conclusion. I think that is what Obama means by a thoughtful and deliberate action in removing our troops. It means, we're not going to do this forever, the time for you to step up is fast approaching, start taking the reigns or you will suffer the consequences.

You might say that is risking our security if they crash. Maybe. But you can't secure everything, control is an illusion. We profit more financially, politically, culturally, by getting out. As long as we stay, we look like we always meant to stay. We give the chance for a true cultural democracy in Iraq by giving them the keys, letting them know we'll be there with advice if they seek it, but trusting them to their own sense of liberty.

I know you are passionate about what you do, about what you believe, about the brothers and sisters with whom you have collaborated to bring about a new vision for a people who needed a new start. You did a good job, let them take it out for a spin.

-HH

[KCJohnny]

HH, if only it were that easy.

1. There is no dearth of effort from the Iraqis. They do most of the fighting, dying, building and investing. You cannot microwave a mature defense and law enforcement infrastructure.

2. I said we were involved, not in control. Iraq is a sovereign nation. We serve there at their invitation. Please don't fall for the shrill Pelosi/Reed rhetoric that Iraqis need to "step up" as though they were loafing while Americans did all the heavy lifting. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

3. The regional threats are very, very dangerous. AQ and its leaders have stated over and over again that Iraq is the central front of the war - regardless of the stump speeches of American politicians who say otherwise. Iran is a cleric run Shiite state - and 7 of the 8 most important Shia religious shrines (tombs of the holy Imams) are in Iraq. Iran wants to control Iraq. A premature US pullout could trigger a regional war exponentially worse than OIF.

4. We broke it, we have to fix it. That's the only honorable position. Regardless of why we went in, we cannot leave Iraq more vulnerable to regional threats by exiting prematurely.

5. I understand what you are trying to say about perspective - I am very emotionally involved - but that is balanced by ground level experience.

Enjoyed the exchange.

Salam a lechem,
KCJ
:arrow:

[J Diddy]

HH, if only it were that easy.

1. There is no dearth of effort from the Iraqis. They do most of the fighting, dying, building and investing. You cannot microwave a mature defense and law enforcement infrastructure.

2. I said we were involved, not in control. Iraq is a sovereign nation. We serve there at their invitation. Please don't fall for the shrill Pelosi/Reed rhetoric that Iraqis need to "step up" as though they were loafing while Americans did all the heavy lifting. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

3. The regional threats are very, very dangerous. AQ and its leaders have stated over and over again that Iraq is the central front of the war - regardless of the stump speeches of American politicians who say otherwise. Iran is a cleric run Shiite state - and 7 of the 8 most important Shia religious shrines (tombs of the holy Imams) are in Iraq. Iran wants to control Iraq. A premature US pullout could trigger a regional war exponentially worse than OIF.

4. We broke it, we have to fix it. That's the only honorable position. Regardless of why we went in, we cannot leave Iraq more vulnerable to regional threats by exiting prematurely.

5. I understand what you are trying to say about perspective - I am very emotionally involved - but that is balanced by ground level experience.

Enjoyed the exchange.

Salam a lechem,
KCJ
:arrow:


so you're saying our kids should die for their freedom rather than theirs?

[patteeu]

Thank you for the thoughtful post, I don't say that sarcastically.

I believe your assessments of the situation, and that they should be considered, I just think they should be considered as a true but partial situation. Sometimes, when one is close to the situation, it actually makes it harder to look at it in a more dispassionate, but more encompassing format. Perhaps nuances, political and cultural, which do not reveal themselves out in the open, are also behind prognostications on either side, how long the U.S. should remain, and what it means to "remain". I imagine, that if Iraq is serious about wanting to spread their wings, their intent is not to have us completely gone, but that does not mean we need to be pumping billions into their welfare. Perhaps their worries and projections reflect financial considerations as well as security ones.

I just think sometimes, you got to put the person/enterprise/state out there, and let them go. Sort of like me training my daughter how to drive, or a new controller how to separate airplanes. Sure, it would be a lot less stress on me, and a lot safer, if I directed every move. But if I don't let them go a bit, if I don't let them get themselves into a few situations, they never discover the ability to work themselves out of it to a successful conclusion. I think that is what Obama means by a thoughtful and deliberate action in removing our troops. It means, we're not going to do this forever, the time for you to step up is fast approaching, start taking the reigns or you will suffer the consequences.

You might say that is risking our security if they crash. Maybe. But you can't secure everything, control is an illusion. We profit more financially, politically, culturally, by getting out. As long as we stay, we look like we always meant to stay. We give the chance for a true cultural democracy in Iraq by giving them the keys, letting them know we'll be there with advice if they seek it, but trusting them to their own sense of liberty.

I know you are passionate about what you do, about what you believe, about the brothers and sisters with whom you have collaborated to bring about a new vision for a people who needed a new start. You did a good job, let them take it out for a spin.

-HH

What makes you think we aren't doing that already? When you're teaching your daughter to drive you don't just hand her the keys and tell her you'll see her when she gets back do you?

What you say makes all kinds of sense, but why you think those concepts are not already being considered is hard for me to understand. I actually don't have too much concern over Obama and Iraq. Things are far enough along that he'd be foolish if he allows our forces to be pulled out too quickly. Given the successes over the past year or so, how Iraq turns out is going to reflect on him as much as it does on GWB, IMO. It's the next international crisis that concerns me more than Iraq at this point.

[patteeu]

so you're saying our kids should die for their freedom rather than theirs?

:spock:

[beer bacon]

I hope Obama polls the troops to figure out which country we should invade next.

[Amnorix]

4. We broke it, we have to fix it. That's the only honorable position. Regardless of why we went in, we cannot leave Iraq more vulnerable to regional threats by exiting prematurely.


I actually agree with this to a very great degree. Not just because of the repercussions in Iraq, but also for reasons of regional stability, and regional and worldwide credibility.

But I cannot begin to tell you just how f'n bitter it makes me. f**king Bush. :mad::banghead:

IF there is a path to success that is reasonably well defined and it does not appear inevitable that sectarian violence will flare up when we leave, whenever the hell that is, then I think we're stuck there for a while yet. But Bush has cost this country tremendously in needlessly wasted men and dollars. Much of that blame rests with Rumsfeld and Cheney, it is true, but the buck stops with Bush.

[HolyHandgernade]

What makes you think we aren't doing that already? When you're teaching your daughter to drive you don't just hand her the keys and tell her you'll see her when she gets back do you?

What you say makes all kinds of sense, but why you think those concepts are not already being considered is hard for me to understand. I actually don't have too much concern over Obama and Iraq. Things are far enough along that he'd be foolish if he allows our forces to be pulled out too quickly. Given the successes over the past year or so, how Iraq turns out is going to reflect on him as much as it does on GWB, IMO. It's the next international crisis that concerns me more than Iraq at this point.

It's not like it hasn't been a few years. We're a little past the "check your mirrors, the key goes here" stage. I'm not saying we haven't been doing this. I'm saying if we want out, and they want us out, its time to start doing so, we can't be a permanent baby sitter. In air traffic control, we tell each new check out, you'll learn more in your first six months on your own than you will in the 2-3 years of monitored instruction. People are never really "ready" when they are checked out, they are at a certain level of competency to handle moderate traffic and ask for help when they get busier. We need to take a reassessment at when that competency level will/has been reached with a new perspective and perhaps a renewed motivation. Even trainers get burned out in the training process.

-HH

[Amnorix]

Given the successes over the past year or so, how Iraq turns out is going to reflect on him as much as it does on GWB, IMO.


I find this laughable, to be honest. There's no way to know whether the surge simply resulted in a lid being placed on the boiling kettle and everyone waiting for the new administration to see what happens before they start their infighting.

To be honest, given Bush's completely unwillingness to engage certain regional players such as Iran and Syria, and those same countries' vested interest in helping the Shia majority in Iraq come to power and be closely aligned with them, I find it very hard to believe that anything other than a PERMANENT U.S. military presence will avoid that result.

And then the Saudi fears of a Shia crescent over the Middle East will have been realized. Thanks to: George W. Freaking Bush.

[Amnorix]

"In late April, [Secretary of State Condi] Rice dispatched [senior diplomat] DAvid Satterfield to meet with the king [of Saudi Arabia]."

. . .

"Satterfield understood the king's unease. His country was haunted by the prospect of a 'crescent' of largely Shia states to the north, from IRan through Iraq to Syria."

"Satterfield had a tough and uncomfortable meeting with Abdullah on Sunday, April 22. The United States has handed Iraq to Iran ona golden platter, the king said. "You have allowed the Persians, the Safavids" -- the Shia rulers of Persia in the 16th and 17th centuries -- "to take over Iraq."

"Satterfield attempted to counter. Iraq could be a strong independent state.

"I warned you about this," the king said. "I warned the president, the vice president, but your ears were blocked. I have no interest in discussing this further."

The War Within, Bob Woodward, at pg. 347

[KCJohnny]

I actually agree with this to a very great degree. Not just because of the repercussions in Iraq, but also for reasons of regional stability, and regional and worldwide credibility.

But I cannot begin to tell you just how f'n bitter it makes me. f**king Bush. :mad::banghead:

IF there is a path to success that is reasonably well defined and it does not appear inevitable that sectarian violence will flare up when we leave, whenever the hell that is, then I think we're stuck there for a while yet. But Bush has cost this country tremendously in needlessly wasted men and dollars. Much of that blame rests with Rumsfeld and Cheney, it is true, but the buck stops with Bush.

Colin Powell made the case to the UN. Regime change became the US policy towards Iraq in 1998 with the Iraq Liberation Act under President Clinton. The world is safer without Saddam and the dictators and despots in the region have been put on notice.

[Amnorix]

Colin Powell made the case to the UN. Regime change became the US policy towards Iraq in 1998 with the Iraq Liberation Act under President Clinton. The world is safer without Saddam and the dictators and despots in the region have been put on notice.

Put on notice of what? That we're tied down? That we're having immense trouble avoiding a civil war in Iraq?

Do you think Iran quakes that they are next? Or are they both concerned they are next, but also HAPPY that Saddam is gone, and there is a potential path to a close ally being created in Iraq?

[KCJohnny]

Put on notice of what? That we're tied down? That we're having immense trouble avoiding a civil war in Iraq?

Do you think Iran quakes that they are next? Or are they both concerned they are next, but also HAPPY that Saddam is gone, and there is a potential path to a close ally being created in Iraq?

Don't take my word for it. This (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/03/200861501453203859.html) was reported by Al Jazeera:


Gaddafi asked: "How can we accept that a foreign power comes to topple an Arab leader while we stand watching?"

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=140 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=MostActiveDescHeader bgColor=#b68809>Your Views</TD></TR><TR><TD class=MostActiveDescBody vAlign=top bgColor=#dfd2ad>Should the Arab League change its stance on peace with Israel? (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E9A36960-AB5A-43E7-A637-4628328249EB.htm?&choice=3&dgDiscID=267&dgPoolID=327b0250-a3d3-4458-a8f4-400278eada1f)

Send us your views (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B84B85E3-7E69-4D79-8121-746EBEA7B304.htm)





</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>He said Saddam had once been an ally of Washington <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:p</st1:State>"but they sold him out".
"Your turn is next," Gaddafi told the Arab officials gathered for the conference, some of whom looked stunned while others broke into laughter at his frankness.

[Chief Henry]

I did cry, and I am not ashamed. You are not worthy of such pride.


Some people are just jerks :thumb:

[KCJohnny]

Some people are just jerks :thumb:

Thanks, Henry. Everytime I see that clip, I have tears. I hope people reading this will actually watch the clip. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are people, too.

[Saulbadguy]

Thanks, Henry. Everytime I see that clip, I have tears. I hope people reading this will actually watch the clip. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are people, too.

Yep, and they are all good people. Except you.