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View Full Version : Football Whitlock: The 10 best and 10 worst NFL coaches


Deberg_1990
11-13-2008, 02:10 PM
No, Herm Edwards didnt make either list. Amazing.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8789616/The-10-best-and-10-worst-NFL-coaches


The 10 Best
1. Redskins' Jim Zorn: Doesn't get near enough credit for turning Jason Campbell into a legitimate starting quarterback. Campbell was headed toward being a draft bust before Zorn arrived. Last year Todd Collins saved Washington's season filling in for Campbell late. This season Campbell is completing 64 percent of his passes and has avoided the big mistakes while leading the Skins to a 6-3 start in the league's best division.

2. Patriots' Bill Belichick: I was in the house when Tom Brady went down in the season opener. I wanted to write that Bernard Pollard's low blow ended the Patriots dynasty. I texted Jeff George's cell number to New England general manager Scott Pioli. The Patriots were done. Obviously I underestimated Belichick. Depending on what happens tonight against the Jets, he has the Patriots atop the AFC East and in position to be considered the AFC's second-best team.

3. Panthers' John Fox: He entered the season on the hot seat and things got considerably warmer when he was forced to suspend his best player (Steve Smith) for the first two games. The Panthers started 2-0, are 7-2 overall and off the radar in terms of Super Bowl threats. No one will pay attention to the Panthers until they face the Giants in late December.


4. Titans' Jeff Fisher: Most people would put Fisher at the top of this list. I don't because the Titans are undefeated mainly because Vince Young got hurt and went momentarily kooky. A healthy VY and the Titans are 7-2 and just another good team in the AFC. Young's meltdown was a blessing for Fisher. He gets out from underneath the mistake the Titans made drafting Young.

5. Falcons' Mike Smith: I honestly don't know anything about Smith. I don't know where he came from. I don't know whether he's a defensive-minded coach or offensive. But there's no doubt he's done a wonderful job developing Matt Ryan. And I'll give Smith credit for signing Michael Turner and making him a feature back. Even if the 6-3 Falcons lose the rest of their games, Smith's rookie season has been a smashing success. He and Ryan have made Atlantans forget Michael Vick.

6. Giants' Tom Coughlin: The Giants dumped Jeremy Shockey, lost Osi Umenyiora, have to deal with Plaxico Burress and play in the NFC East. Coughlin is putting together his best coaching performance. But everyone expected the defending champs to be good.

7. Bears' Lovie Smith: The Bears are pretty damn good when Kyle Orton plays quarterback. They're averaging 26 points. I thought it was crazy to open the season with Orton as the starter. My only complaint with Lovie was the squib kick at the Atlanta game that set the stage for a terrible loss.

8. Cardinals' Ken Whisenhunt: I give him points for resurrecting Kurt Warner as a franchise quarterback. But Whisenhunt loses a few points because he coaches in the NFC West. Three of Arizona's six victories are against the 49ers and Rams. The Cardinals are a nice story. But there's no reason to take them seriously. I don't like their running game. And good teams will take advantage of Arizona's defense.

9. Ravens' John Harbaugh: He's riding the second-best rookie quarterback (Joe Flacco) to playoff contention. Harbaugh also gets the luxury of coaching the Ravens at a time when Ray Lewis is putting the finishing touches on a Hall of Fame career and making his closing argument for being the best middle linebacker of all time. It's illegal to run on the Ravens this season.

10. Buccaneers' Jon Gruden: He lost his quarterback (Brian Griese) and tailback (Cadillac Williams) and the Bucs are still sitting at 6-3. The Bucs have a mediocre offensive line and 50-year-old Joey Galloway is the team's deep threat. Somehow Gruden gets this offense in the end zone often enough for the Bucs to be competitive.


The 10 Worst
10. Saints' Sean Payton: Someone has to take the blame for New Orleans' 4-5 record. I don't have a real problem with Payton. It's impossible to win in the Big Easy. There are just too many distractions in NO to build a successful football franchise.

9. Bengals' Marvin Lewis: The Bengals avoided 0-16 by beating the Jaguars, although 1-15 is a real possibility. Lewis created the Chad Johnson situation. Lewis didn't learn from the Denny Green mess and allowed Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh to take over the Bengals the way Randy Moss and Cris Carter once did the Vikings. Let that be a lesson to any future NFL coaches. Don't let your wide receivers determine the personality of your football team. It cost Denny Green his job in Minny and it's likely to cost Marvin in Cincy.



8. Broncos' Mike Shanahan: Would someone please talk John Elway out of retirement so he can save Shanahan's reputation? I consider Shanahan one of the game's great coaches. It's getting harder and harder to make a pro-Shanahan argument.

7. 49ers' Mike Singletary: The end of the "Monday Night Football" contest against the Cardinals is all the evidence you need to understand why I wanted Singletary to pass on the San Francisco job. Singletary has a chance to be a great NFL coach. Unfortunately, he took a head-coaching job before he was ready. Singletary can't manage the clock. All the whining about the refs spotting the ball wrong or too quickly just points to Singletary's inexperience and the folly of having Mike Martz as an unsupervised offensive coordinator.

6. Packers' Mike McCarthy: With Brett Favre at the helm, the Packers were one play from the Super Bowl. With Favre run off to New York, the Packers are 4-5 and in jeopardy of missing the playoffs. You have to blame McCarthy and general manager Ted Thompson for Favre's absence. Aaron Rodgers has been pretty damn good. He's not the problem. Apparently he's not the answer either. McCarthy wanted to be the big hero for letting Favre go, well now McCarthy and Thompson look like fools.

5. Cowboys' Wade Phillips: If the Cowboys don't rally and make the playoffs, Phillips will likely be the scapegoat and fired. He deserves it, even though Jerry Jones is the main reason the Cowboys underachieve. Jones hired Phillips to oversee the bunch of talented bad boys Jones showered with enough money to make the players uncooperative. Pacman Jones, Tank Johnson, Terrell Owens and Jessica Simpson are just a handful of high-profile idiots Phillips is expected to handle. Phillips is blowing it. But it's a job that was too much for Bill Parcells, too.

4. Jaguars' Jack Del Rio: He's the captain of the most undisciplined ship in the NFL. Thank God Jacksonville is off-Broadway. No one pays attention to the multiple arrests and countless off-the-field problems Del Rio's players encounter. The Jags are as bad as the Bengals. Somehow Del Rio has avoided being as big a laughingstock as Marvin Lewis. Jacksonville lost to Cincy. Enough said.

3. Chargers' Norv Turner: Philip Rivers is allegedly having the best season of any quarterback in the league. LaDainian Tomlinson, for my money, is still the best running back in the league. OK, the Chargers lost Shawne Merriman to a knee injury. That doesn't excuse San Diego's 4-5 record in a division that includes the Chiefs and the Raiders. Norv is a very mediocre head coach.

2. Browns' Romeo Crennel: The new Art Shell is leading the league's most disappointing team. Crennel can't tame Kellen Winslow's mouth or bad attitude. Crennel can't get Braylon Edwards to hold onto the football. The 3-6 Browns quit against the Broncos. Crennel played a role in the Browns giving Derek Anderson a new contract. Yeah, Romeo is making Charlie Weis seem like a Notre Dame success story.

1. Eagles' Andy Reid: Twice this season Reid has taken the game out of the hands of Donovan McNabb and tried to win at crunch time with his running game. Here's a coach who loves to throw on damn near every down except when the game is on the line. I also blame Reid for the Eagles failing to trade a second-round draft pick for Tony Gonzalez. Other than the one season with Terrell Owens, McNabb has made a living throwing the ball to the James Thrashes of the world. It's ridiculous. I'm convinced the Eagles don't want to win it all.

Tribal Warfare
11-13-2008, 02:12 PM
Has he gone all soft on Herm now, shit it's like he forgot about the Titans game.

SPATCH
11-13-2008, 02:15 PM
this list looks about right

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 02:22 PM
I would take anyone in the top 10, along with Reid, Shannahan, Payton all over Herm...

I

Demonpenz
11-13-2008, 02:22 PM
what is the deal with Whitlock and Notre dame. I know he was mad because willingham was let go but Notre Dame hasn't been anything for awhile now and I love Notre Dame.

PhillyChiefFan
11-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Wade Phillips is a figure head.

Jason Garrett is being groomed for that job, and will do well with it.

ziggysocki
11-13-2008, 02:27 PM
Why isn't Herm on the list? I don't think that they even consider him a coach. I hate the "rebuilding" force field.

Deberg_1990
11-13-2008, 02:28 PM
what is the deal with Whitlock and Notre dame.

Hes from Indiana originally.

SPATCH
11-13-2008, 02:29 PM
Why isn't Herm on the list? I don't think that they even consider him a coach. I hate the "rebuilding" force field.

well then get over it

Sure-Oz
11-13-2008, 02:30 PM
Anyone think Mike Tomlin is a decent coach?

jidar
11-13-2008, 02:31 PM
Herm should have made the list.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 02:35 PM
Wade Phillips is a figure head.

Jason Garrett is being groomed for that job, and will do well with it.

I don't see any evidence of that at this point.

Even with Romo, they lost in the playoffs.

Without him, they're just about completely lost.

Some of that blame should be on the Jones boys since they didn't provide the Cowboys with a developmental or suitable veteran backup QB. But the Dallas fans that I know think that Garrett's years away from being ready.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 02:38 PM
Herm should have made the list.

He is easily one of the bottom 2-3 in the league....

ArrowheadSoldier82
11-13-2008, 02:54 PM
I don't think Herm deserves to be on that list he inherited an old team and now this year they broke it down and we are seeing positive results no W's yet but damn if we haven't been close these past three games i think we are seeing the fruit of the chiefs labor we'll get a couple more wins herm is a better coach then most will give credit for.

PhillyChiefFan
11-13-2008, 02:59 PM
Anyone think Mike Tomlin is a decent coach?

I think he is. Though how good remains to be seen, cause it IS still mostly Cowher's team.

I really like LeBeau.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 03:00 PM
I don't think Herm deserves to be on that list he inherited an old team and now this year they broke it down and we are seeing positive results no W's yet but damn if we haven't been close these past three games i think we are seeing the fruit of the chiefs labor we'll get a couple more wins herm is a better coach then most will give credit for.

Herm is always the Victim......

PhillyChiefFan
11-13-2008, 03:03 PM
I don't see any evidence of that at this point.

Even with Romo, they lost in the playoffs.

Without him, they're just about completely lost.

Some of that blame should be on the Jones boys since they didn't provide the Cowboys with a developmental or suitable veteran backup QB. But the Dallas fans that I know think that Garrett's years away from being ready.

Really? Dallas fans that I know say a year maybe 2 at the most away. I guess that just goes to show how varied fans views can be.

either way, I believe he will be the HC of Dallas someday.

PhillyChiefFan
11-13-2008, 03:04 PM
They may be dumbasses though :)

Spicy McHaggis
11-13-2008, 03:14 PM
Andy Reid is the NFL's worst coach? Que?

McCarthy shouldn't be on that list either. The whole Favre thing aside, McCarthy has done a good job turning around what was a bad team here in Green Bay.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 03:21 PM
Really? Dallas fans that I know say a year maybe 2 at the most away. I guess that just goes to show how varied fans views can be.

either way, I believe he will be the HC of Dallas someday.

I think it's possible but if his offenses don't improve and continue to stumble in the playoffs, I'd be surprised if he were hired.

JuicesFlowing
11-13-2008, 03:23 PM
Anyone think Mike Tomlin is a decent coach?

I think he's a good coach. Pittsburgh never really missed a beat after Cowher left.

PunkinDrublic
11-13-2008, 03:28 PM
I think it's possible but if his offenses don't improve and continue to stumble in the playoffs, I'd be surprised if he were hired.

I think the problem with Jerry Jones is he tampers with things too much and never really completely trusts the personel he hires to do their job. That's kind of the consequences of Jones. The guy will go and get whoever it takes to win and will shell out his money to do it but too often gets in a power struggle with the coaches who aren't his yes men.

Kind of funny a couple of weeks ago on the local sports talk radio they were trying to argue that Jerry Jones is a younger version of Al Davis if you can believe it.

rambleonthruthefog
11-13-2008, 03:28 PM
i generally like what ya'll post of whitlocks, but that list is pretty bad. half the names and almost of the rankings are off.

kc rush
11-13-2008, 03:43 PM
I don't think Herm deserves to be on that list he inherited an old team and now this year they broke it down and we are seeing positive results no W's yet but damn if we haven't been close these past three games i think we are seeing the fruit of the chiefs labor we'll get a couple more wins herm is a better coach then most will give credit for.

I agree completely, Herm inherited a terrible team. Whoever has been coaching this team for the last 2 1/2 years before Herm righted the ship these last 3 games deserves the blame. The last 2 1/2 years have been torture and that coach really fooked this team up.

Micjones
11-13-2008, 03:45 PM
A list of the worst coaches in the NFL that doesn't include Herman Edwards is bullshit.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 03:49 PM
I agree completely, Herm inherited a terrible team. Whoever has been coaching this team for the last 2 1/2 years before Herm righted the ship these last 3 games deserves the blame. The last 2 1/2 years have been torture and that coach really fooked this team up.

Oh boy..... Herm righted the ship the last 3 games, but shoulders zero blame for the last 2 1/2 years of puke?

I hope, truly hope this is sarcasm, Actually I beg you to tell me this was pure sarcasm.... Please?

PRIEST
11-13-2008, 03:49 PM
A list of the worst coaches in the NFL that doesn't include Herman Edwards is bullshit.



Tru Dat .Unbelievable Herm I can't Coach shit Edwards is not on this list.

Deberg_1990
11-13-2008, 03:50 PM
i generally like what ya'll post of whitlocks, but that list is pretty bad. half the names and almost of the rankings are off.


Hes just saying for 2008. Sorry, i should have made it more clear.

It also appears he based this off of team expectations. The Chiefs had ZERO expectations going into the season, so Herm doesnt make any list.

Chief_in_Commander
11-13-2008, 03:51 PM
8. Broncos' Mike Shanahan: Would someone please talk John Elway out of retirement so he can save Shanahan's reputation? I consider Shanahan one of the game's great coaches. It's getting harder and harder to make a pro-Shanahan argument.

7. 49ers' Mike Singletary: The end of the "Monday Night Football" contest against the Cardinals is all the evidence you need to understand why I wanted Singletary to pass on the San Francisco job. Singletary has a chance to be a great NFL coach. Unfortunately, he took a head-coaching job before he was ready. Singletary can't manage the clock. All the whining about the refs spotting the ball wrong or too quickly just points to Singletary's inexperience and the folly of having Mike Martz as an unsupervised offensive coordinator.

6. Packers' Mike McCarthy: With Brett Favre at the helm, the Packers were one play from the Super Bowl. With Favre run off to New York, the Packers are 4-5 and in jeopardy of missing the playoffs. You have to blame McCarthy and general manager Ted Thompson for Favre's absence. Aaron Rodgers has been pretty damn good. He's not the problem. Apparently he's not the answer either. McCarthy wanted to be the big hero for letting Favre go, well now McCarthy and Thompson look like fools.

These 3 I don't agree with. McCarthy has taken the Packers over and made them young and very competitive. I don't think Favre would have there record be much different than it is, they played a little out of there minds last year and they have come back down to earth.

Injuries have torched Shanahan's team and he still has his team in first place. One thing about Shanahan is he knew Cutler was his guy and he went and got him. Now they have a franchise QB, because that's what good Coaches do.

It's not even fair to put Singletary on the list, it's like saying Obama is one of the worst presidents ever because the economy sucks, give the guy a chance before you go putting him in that category.

kc rush
11-13-2008, 03:52 PM
Oh boy..... Herm righted the ship the last 3 games, but shoulders zero blame for the last 2 1/2 years of puke?

I hope, truly hope this is sarcasm, Actually I beg you to tell me this was pure sarcasm.... Please?

Tongue meet cheek.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 03:52 PM
Tongue meet cheek.

It was a great post, btw....

PunkinDrublic
11-13-2008, 03:53 PM
A list of the worst coaches in the NFL that doesn't include Herman Edwards is bullshit.

I wouldn't put herm on the list. Herm has a couple of major flaws. He has bad clock management skills and his conservative play calling drives people nuts.

Darth CarlSatan
11-13-2008, 03:54 PM
what is the deal with Whitlock and Notre dame. I know he was mad because willingham was let go but Notre Dame hasn't been anything for awhile now and I love Notre Dame.

Anything is better than having to listen to one of his decade long 'Scroat Sac-U' rants. Now he's got a NEW Ball State Bitch that he won't shut up about.

yayyyyy...:rolleyes:

kc rush
11-13-2008, 03:57 PM
I wouldn't put herm on the list. Herm has a couple of major flaws. He has bad clock management skills and his conservative play calling drives people nuts.

Agreed. Herm hired Dick Curl to manage the clock hence the name "Father Time". Curl is to blame, not Herm.

Mike Solari and Chan Gailey are the ones who called the offensive plays, so they are to blame. And honestly, if the players can't execute what has been called in, they are to blame. And if there are bad players, well that is the previous coaches fault.

Deberg_1990
11-13-2008, 04:00 PM
Agreed. Herm hired Dick Curl to manage the clock hence the name "Father Time". Curl is to blame, not Herm.

Mike Solari and Chan Gailey are the ones who called the offensive plays, so they are to blame. And honestly, if the players can't execute what has been called in, they are to blame. And if there are bad players, well that is the previous coaches fault.

So in other words: Herm is never to blame


Got it.

kc rush
11-13-2008, 04:01 PM
So in other words: Herm is never to blame


Got it.

And if you are pointing fingers, just know that there are three fingers pointing back at you.

Skip Towne
11-13-2008, 04:02 PM
Herm is easily among the 10 worst coaches in the NFL. Probably top 3.

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-13-2008, 04:02 PM
The league needs Rich Kotite and John Mackovic back.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 04:02 PM
A list of the worst coaches in the NFL that doesn't include Herman Edwards is bullshit.

If you gave Herm Edwards a reasonably talented football team with a solid QB, he's going to get that team to a 9-7 or better record each and every year.

He has proven to be too conservative in crucial situations and like many coaches, isn't a good clock manager (he's certainly well below average). Unless he improves in those two areas, he'll never get past a divisional win in the playoffs. It doomed Marty and it doomed Cowher for nearly 15 years (and Dungy for half a decade).

But he's a good head coach and a good football coach, overall.

The main reason why most coaches will not undergo a full-on rebuild are exactly what we see on Chiefsplanet, KC Star comments and talk radio: The immense amount of scrutiny by an overwhelming majority of fans who only see winning and losing as the bottom line. They can't see improvement and they don't understand why the Chiefs didn't sign "X" player to "improve" the roster.

But in no way does he belong on this list. If every game this season were 38-14 and 34-0, then I'd re-think that position. But this team IS improving each and every week.

Even if the majority of fans can't see it.

Tribal Warfare
11-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Herm is always the Victim......

He always plays it that way at his pressers too

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 04:14 PM
If you gave Herm Edwards a reasonably talented football team with a solid QB, he's going to get that team to a 9-7 or better record each and every year.

He has proven to be too conservative in crucial situations and like many coaches, isn't a good clock manager (he's certainly well below average). Unless he improves in those two areas, he'll never get past a divisional win in the playoffs. It doomed Marty and it doomed Cowher for nearly 15 years (and Dungy for half a decade).

But he's a good head coach and a good football coach, overall.

The main reason why most coaches will not undergo a full-on rebuild are exactly what we see on Chiefsplanet, KC Star comments and talk radio: The immense amount of scrutiny by an overwhelming majority of fans who only see winning and losing as the bottom line. They can't see improvement and they don't understand why the Chiefs didn't sign "X" player to "improve" the roster.

But in no way does he belong on this list. If every game this season were 38-14 and 34-0, then I'd re-think that position. But this team IS improving each and every week.

Even if the majority of fans can't see it.

We see it, we like it, we just dont like the clown in charge... Its pretty simple.

Just as you stated, give Herm a talented, injury free team with a solid QB and he will get you 9-7. Maybe a little more, maybe a lot less...

But he will never take you to the next level, AFC Championships or Superbowls... Based on your post.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 04:15 PM
Agreed. Herm hired Dick Curl to manage the clock hence the name "Father Time". Curl is to blame, not Herm.

Mike Solari and Chan Gailey are the ones who called the offensive plays, so they are to blame. And honestly, if the players can't execute what has been called in, they are to blame. And if there are bad players, well that is the previous coaches fault.

Sadly, most of these players are Herms.... The DV excuse is played out...

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 04:20 PM
But he will never take you to the next level, AFC Championships or Superbowls... Based on your post.

Unless he improves his game clock management and conservative ways in crucial game points, that's exactly how I see it.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 04:21 PM
Agreed. Herm hired Dick Curl to manage the clock hence the name "Father Time". Curl is to blame, not Herm.

Where has it been said that Dick Curl is responsible for clock management? If so, why is he on the sidelines working with the QB's during the game?

That doesn't make any sense.

kc rush
11-13-2008, 04:41 PM
Sadly, most of these players are Herms.... The DV excuse is played out...

Well then Carl is to blame. If these were truly Herm's players we'd be well on our way to 9-7, a participant ribbon and orange slices after the game. You will not sully Herm's image in front of me.

kc rush
11-13-2008, 04:42 PM
Where has it been said that Dick Curl is responsible for clock management? If so, why is he on the sidelines working with the QB's during the game?

That doesn't make any sense.

Well, crap. Whoever has taken Curl's time management coaching duties...they are to blame.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Well then Carl is to blame. If these were truly Herm's players we'd be well on our way to 9-7, a participant ribbon and orange slices after the game. You will not sully Herm's image in front of me.

Herm and Kuharich drafted better in one year than Vermeil and his cronies did in 5 years.

If you don't think that's what killed this franchise, you're sadly mistaken.

el borracho
11-13-2008, 04:47 PM
If you gave Herm Edwards a reasonably talented football team with a solid QB, he's going to get that team to a 9-7 or better record each and every year.

Not so:

Jets
2000 (before Herm): 9-7
2001 10-6
2002 9-7
2003 6-10
2004 10-6
2005 4-12

Chiefs
2005 (before Herm): 10-6
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 1-8

Herm overall: 53-68 (probably 53-75 at season's end) with a history of hiring bad coordinators, trending teams down and getting QBs killed. Herm is without question one of the worst head coaches in the NFL.

kc rush
11-13-2008, 04:47 PM
Herm and Kuharich drafted better in one year than Vermeil and his cronies did in 5 years.

If you don't think that's what killed this franchise, you're sadly mistaken.

I agree. It is Vermeil's fault, or Carls or Curl or Solari. Somebody's fault.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 04:52 PM
Not so:

Jets
2000 (before Herm): 9-7
2001 10-6
2002 9-7
2003 6-10
2004 10-6
2005 4-12

Chiefs
2005 (before Herm): 10-6
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 1-8

Herm overall: 53-68 (probably 53-75 at season's end) with a history of hiring bad coordinators, trending teams down and getting QBs killed. Herm is without question one of the worst head coaches in the NFL.

This is an absolutely stupid comparison.

Injuries plagued Herm's seasons in 2003 and 2005. You don't go 10-6 (actually 11-7 because they beat San Diego in the playoffs, only to lose in Pittsburgh because their kicker missed 3 field goals) and drop to 6-10 because you suddenly forgot how to coach.

Furthermore, the Chiefs were 7-9 the year before they went 10-6 so a 9-7 record without the services of Trent Green or Willie Roaf says to me that he and his staff did a better job of coaching than Vermeil.

This is exactly what I stated before: Too many "fans" look at wins and losses instead of what's happening on the field with the players.

Which is also why there are so many fans are fascinated with the Vermeil years, even though they didn't win jack-fucking-shit.

Spott
11-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Herm is an absolute joke. No way is he better than Andy Reid and Mike Shanahan. You can take all of Herm's positive accomplishments and they equal about 1 season of what these guys have done.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-13-2008, 04:58 PM
That list was pretty preposterous. At at point, he was just taking teams with good records and throwing shit against the wall to see if it stuck.

"I really don't know anything about Mike Smith."--Dude, five seconds of research would tell you that he was the D-coordinator at Jacksonville....hell, maybe you could have tied that in to the lack of success in Jax now...just saying.

Andy Reid is a pretty terrible coach in tight games, but to say he's the worst coach in the league is flat out moronic. The guy gets his players ready to go every week. You never know what kind of effort you are going to get from a Norv Turner or a Romeo Crennel team, and that's why they are horrible coaches.

Oh, and I've said from the beginning of the year that Garrett is vastly overrated and has no business coaching an NFL team...a lot of people on here have. He can't even design a gameplan to the strengths of his football team. They should be a run first, PAP based team, but he keeps trying to force a square peg into a round hole by getting that lethargic O-line to block on 7 step drops while Romo tries to get T Blow his quota.

Von Dumbass
11-13-2008, 05:01 PM
Mike Shanahan is one of the 10 worst coaches? Is this guy retarded?

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 05:02 PM
Mike Shanahan is one of the 10 worst coaches? Is this guy retarded?

Yes.

el borracho
11-13-2008, 05:05 PM
This is an absolutely stupid comparison.

Injuries plagued Herm's seasons in 2003 and 2005. You don't go 10-6 (actually 11-7 because they beat San Diego in the playoffs, only to lose in Pittsburgh because their kicker missed 3 field goals) and drop to 6-10 because you suddenly forgot how to coach.

Furthermore, the Chiefs were 7-9 the year before they went 10-6 so a 9-7 record without the services of Trent Green or Willie Roaf says to me that he and his staff did a better job of coaching than Vermeil.

This is exactly what I stated before: Too many "fans" look at wins and losses instead of what's happening on the field with the players.

Which is also why there are so many fans are fascinated with the Vermeil years, even though they didn't win jack-****ing-shit.

I wasn't making a comparison; I was giving the facts which disprove your earlier statement.

Of course Herm didn't forget how to coach- he just isn't very good at it to begin with.

Herm > Vermeil is a laughable statement.

Why is the word fans in quotation marks?

Let's take a look at what is going on with the players on the field: a lot of losing and, despite his reputation as a draft guru and your assertion to the contrary, not a lot of player development. Please list all of the ProBowl players Herm has drafted and coached up in his eight seasons as head coach.

I was not and am not fascinated with the Vermeil years (although, for all of their obvious faults, they were still more enjoyable than the Herm era).

Fruit Ninja
11-13-2008, 05:06 PM
If you gave Herm Edwards a reasonably talented football team with a solid QB, he's going to get that team to a 9-7 or better record each and every year.

He has proven to be too conservative in crucial situations and like many coaches, isn't a good clock manager (he's certainly well below average). Unless he improves in those two areas, he'll never get past a divisional win in the playoffs. It doomed Marty and it doomed Cowher for nearly 15 years (and Dungy for half a decade).

But he's a good head coach and a good football coach, overall.

The main reason why most coaches will not undergo a full-on rebuild are exactly what we see on Chiefsplanet, KC Star comments and talk radio: The immense amount of scrutiny by an overwhelming majority of fans who only see winning and losing as the bottom line. They can't see improvement and they don't understand why the Chiefs didn't sign "X" player to "improve" the roster.

But in no way does he belong on this list. If every game this season were 38-14 and 34-0, then I'd re-think that position. But this team IS improving each and every week.

Even if the majority of fans can't see it.I agree with this. I dont think Herm belongs on that last. I never wnated him as the coach and i couldnt feel bad if he was let go. He's an average coach.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 05:11 PM
I wasn't making a comparison; I was giving the facts which disprove your earlier statement.

Of course Herm didn't forget how to coach- he just isn't very good at it to begin with.

Herm > Vermeil is a laughable statement.

Why is the word fans in quotation marks?

Let's take a look at what is going on with the players on the field: a lot of losing and, despite his reputation as a draft guru and your assertion to the contrary, not a lot of player development. Please list all of the ProBowl players Herm has drafted and coached up in his eight seasons as head coach.

I was not and am not fascinated with the Vermeil years (although, for all of their obvious faults, they were still more enjoyable than the Herm era).

You're wrong. Period.

I'm not going to argue with because clearly, you don't understand the argument.

Vermeil had more talent on his teams that Herm's had in KC.

Vermeil didn't do jackshit but because his offenses were highly ranked statistically, he gets a pass for sucking.

Herm inherited the oldest fucking team in the league and was stuck with them for 2 years because Peterson would not agree to rebuild.

Herm went to Clark, who agreed it would be in the best interest of the Kansas City Chiefs to just blow the thing up and start from scratch.

Carl Peterson hamstrung Gunther and he's hamstrung Herm. Fortunately for Herm, Clark Hunt listened where Lamar did not.

All the rest is bunch of bullshit.

el borracho
11-13-2008, 05:19 PM
You're wrong. Period.

I'm not going to argue with because clearly, you don't understand the argument.

Vermeil had more talent on his teams that Herm's had in KC.

Vermeil didn't do jackshit but because his offenses were highly ranked statistically, he gets a pass for sucking.

Herm inherited the oldest ****ing team in the league and was stuck with them for 2 years because Peterson would not agree to rebuild.

Herm went to Clark, who agreed it would be in the best interest of the Kansas City Chiefs to just blow the thing up and start from scratch.

Carl Peterson hamstrung Gunther and he's hamstrung Herm. Fortunately for Herm, Clark Hunt listened where Lamar did not.

All the rest is bunch of bullshit.

Wrong about what?

And which argument do I not understand? Several assertions have been madein the thread. What is it you think I don't understand?

Really, who cares what Vermeil did? That is now years ago although, if you wish to discuss it, who's fault is it if Herm's team is less talented than Vermeil's? Remember, Vermeil was here 5 years and Herm is already in his 3rd. That isn't much difference and, if memory serves, Vermeil had all of the pivotal pieces in place and performing by year 3.

beach tribe
11-13-2008, 05:21 PM
You're wrong. Period.

I'm not going to argue with because clearly, you don't understand the argument.

Vermeil had more talent on his teams that Herm's had in KC.

Vermeil didn't do jackshit but because his offenses were highly ranked statistically, he gets a pass for sucking.

Herm inherited the oldest ****ing team in the league and was stuck with them for 2 years because Peterson would not agree to rebuild.

Herm went to Clark, who agreed it would be in the best interest of the Kansas City Chiefs to just blow the thing up and start from scratch.

Carl Peterson hamstrung Gunther and he's hamstrung Herm. Fortunately for Herm, Clark Hunt listened where Lamar did not.

All the rest is bunch of bullshit.


One thing you can say about Vermiel, that MF can build an offense. I mean, dude came in signed a few FAs, and could score at will. That is an example of a coach making a difference. He did it with a different team, and won a SB. It's just too damn bad that they didn't hire someone who could actually identify, acquire, and coach defense. What a waste.

Darth CarlSatan
11-13-2008, 05:26 PM
Yes.

How dare ANYONE say a discouraging word about Coach Rat-Face McCheese Eater!!!

The worlds gone mad I tell you; MAD!!!
:rolleyes::DROFL

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 05:45 PM
Dane could you please answer the question? From El Borracho

Please list all of the ProBowl players Herm has drafted and coached up in his eight seasons as head coach?


Also DV's Chiefs team was built to contend for a superbowl in year 3 and 4... OF course it was old when Herm arrived.... Herm didnt have to come here and be the coach of an "old" team. Also Herm didnt mind riding DV's "old" ass team to the miracle playoff appearance his first year...

And stop using injuries as a crutch... All NFL teams have injuries....

milkman
11-13-2008, 05:45 PM
If you gave Herm Edwards a reasonably talented football team with a solid QB, he's going to get that team to a 9-7 or better record each and every year.

He has proven to be too conservative in crucial situations and like many coaches, isn't a good clock manager (he's certainly well below average). Unless he improves in those two areas, he'll never get past a divisional win in the playoffs. It doomed Marty and it doomed Cowher for nearly 15 years (and Dungy for half a decade).

But he's a good head coach and a good football coach, overall.

The main reason why most coaches will not undergo a full-on rebuild are exactly what we see on Chiefsplanet, KC Star comments and talk radio: The immense amount of scrutiny by an overwhelming majority of fans who only see winning and losing as the bottom line. They can't see improvement and they don't understand why the Chiefs didn't sign "X" player to "improve" the roster.

But in no way does he belong on this list. If every game this season were 38-14 and 34-0, then I'd re-think that position. But this team IS improving each and every week.

Even if the majority of fans can't see it.

This team came out on the attack in the first half, scored points, and put themselves into position to have a chance to win each of the last three games.

They came out in the second half in each of those games and became passive.

They stopped attacking downfield, and allowed their opponents the opportunity to come back and take control of the game, and in the end, win games that the Chiefs, had they continued to attack, should have won.

I am pleased as punch with the rebuild concept.

The goal of rebuilding, however, should be to contend to win championships.
But that will never be achieved, because Herman fucking Edwards is a mediocre dumbass.

milkman
11-13-2008, 05:47 PM
As for this list, Whitlock just might be a bigger dumbass than Herman fucking Edwards.

Brock
11-13-2008, 06:10 PM
I laughed - LAUGHED - when the Patriots hired Bill Belichick. When the Rams hired Vermeil, too. You just never know what is going to happen.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 06:15 PM
I laughed - LAUGHED - when the Patriots hired Bill Belichick. When the Rams hired Vermeil, too. You just never know what is going to happen.

I was sad when Marty left... ( I was young, stupid and didnt know better )

I had tears of Joy when DV was hired, The started sobbing like a baby when they hired GROB. I was sad when DV left...

I have been down right depressed about the franchise with the hire of Herm... Looking forward to freedom...

milkman
11-13-2008, 06:28 PM
I laughed - LAUGHED - when the Patriots hired Bill Belichick. When the Rams hired Vermeil, too. You just never know what is going to happen.

In all the years I've followed the Chiefs, the only head coach after Hank that I was happy to have was Marv Levy.

The rest pissed me off when they were hired.

I love the Chiefs, but fuck, I hate the people in charge.

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 07:07 PM
In all the years I've followed the Chiefs, the only head coach after Hank that I was happy to have was Marv Levy.

The rest pissed me off when they were hired.

I love the Chiefs, but ****, I hate the people in charge.

Yeah Buffalo liked him too...

Skip Towne
11-13-2008, 07:52 PM
When the Chiefs fired him they told him he had reached a plateau and they didn't think he could take us any higher.

milkman
11-13-2008, 07:53 PM
When the Chiefs fired him they told him he had reached a plateau and they didn't think he could take us any higher.

What were they smoking?

Reerun_KC
11-13-2008, 08:01 PM
When the Chiefs fired him they told him he had reached a plateau and they didn't think he could take us any higher.


ROFL

Could the same logic be used in reverse?

Sorry Herm, you have taken us to Titanic type depths. We cant go any lower, so we have to move on...

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 08:56 PM
Dane could you please answer the question? From El Borracho

Please list all of the ProBowl players Herm has drafted and coached up in his eight seasons as head coach?


Also DV's Chiefs team was built to contend for a superbowl in year 3 and 4... OF course it was old when Herm arrived.... Herm didnt have to come here and be the coach of an "old" team. Also Herm didnt mind riding DV's "old" ass team to the miracle playoff appearance his first year...

And stop using injuries as a crutch... All NFL teams have injuries....

Shaun Ellis (http://www.nfl.com/players/shaunellis/profile?id=ELL621162)
John Abraham (http://www.nfl.com/players/johnabraham/profile?id=ABR073003)
Chad Pennington (http://www.nfl.com/players/chadpennington/profile?id=PEN375096)
Laveranues Coles (http://www.nfl.com/players/laveranuescoles/profile?id=COL366580)
Santana Moss (http://www.nfl.com/players/santanamoss/profile?id=MOS717844)
LaMont Jordan (http://www.nfl.com/players/lamontjordan/profile?id=JOR423594)
Kareem McKenzie (http://www.nfl.com/players/kareemmckenzie/profile?id=MCK252342)
James Reed (http://www.nfl.com/players/jamesreed/profile?id=REE255104)
Bryan Thomas (http://www.nfl.com/players/bryanthomas/profile?id=THO054183)
Jon McGraw (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonmcgraw/profile?id=MCG634887)
Dewayne Robertson (http://www.nfl.com/players/dewaynerobertson/profile?id=ROB305071)
Brooks Bollinger (http://www.nfl.com/players/brooksbollinger/profile?id=BOL549216)
Jonathan Vilma (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180)
Jerricho Cotchery (http://www.nfl.com/players/jerrichocotchery/profile?id=COT027891)
Adrian Jones (http://www.nfl.com/players/adrianjones/profile?id=JON027734)
Erik Coleman (http://www.nfl.com/players/erikcoleman/profile?id=COL271731)
Derrick Ward (http://www.nfl.com/players/derrickward/profile?id=WAR147534)
Mike Nugent (http://www.nfl.com/players/mikenugent/profile?id=NUG461506)
Kerry Rhodes (http://www.nfl.com/players/kerryrhodes/profile?id=RHO457261)

All of these guys developed under Herm (the first three were drafted the prior year, 2000, but it would be a stupid argument to suggest that they weren't developed under Herm's coaching staff). Not all are "Pro Bowlers" but all of them are still in the NFL and many of them are/were extremely successful.

Take a look at the Jets previous drafts prior to Herm's arrival. Out of those years, only ONE player was worth a shit: James Farrior. The rest were nobodies.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3430&type=team



Also DV's Chiefs team was built to contend for a superbowl in year 3 and 4...

So he was quite the miserable failure, wasn't he? Not only did the Chiefs give up a first round choice for a QB who didn't last more than 5 years, the Chiefs gave up a 2nd and 3rd round choice for a coach who only brought two winning seasons out of five and NO PLAYOFF VICTORIES.

That's an extremely HIGH price to pay for NOTHING.

OF course it was old when Herm arrived

Because Vermeil insisted on drafting for need, not BAA. It's been widely documented that Vermeil wanted DE Tyler Brayton in 2003 and Peterson vetoed that decision. How did Vermeil respond? By acting like a fucking cry baby. VERMEIL needed to take the fucking diapers off. Grouchy old fuck.

Herm didnt have to come here and be the coach of an "old" team.

Well, he was traded by a New York Jets team that completely overhauled their front office. Was he forced to come to KC? Of course not. But he took the job and was quickly informed that he'd be retaining the same offensive system AND coaches. Terms of the GREAT Carl Peterson. :rolleyes:


Also Herm didnt mind riding DV's "old" ass team to the miracle playoff appearance his first year...

Mind? You mean like being informed a few days before training camp that the all-world left tackle was retiring? Considering the great drafting during the Vermeil years, I'm sure he didn't care at all. :rolleyes:

And stop using injuries as a crutch... All NFL teams have injuries....

Of course they all have injuries. But those injuries are further exacerbated when your team has absolutely NO DEPTH.

Check the three prior drafts to Herm's arrival in NY for proof of shitty drafting from your midnight wetdream, Bill Parcells.

It's pathetic.

smittysbar
11-13-2008, 09:20 PM
I would take 7 of the 10 listed as the worse, over Herm. Amazed that he is not on that list, though the list is horrible.

macdawg
11-13-2008, 10:54 PM
Whitlocks an idiot, Packers are just as young as the Chiefs so it appears they are rebuilding just like we are but are actually winning games.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/304265

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 10:56 PM
Whitlocks an idiot, Packers are just as young as the Chiefs so it appears they are rebuilding just like we are but are actually winning games.

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/304265

The Packers have a three year head start on the Chiefs.

And they're 4-5.

Not exactly a record to write home about.

smittysbar
11-13-2008, 11:00 PM
The Packers have a three year head start on the Chiefs.

And they're 4-5.

Not exactly a record to write home about.

They made it to the NFC Championship last year.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 11:15 PM
They made it to the NFC Championship last year.

Uh...

With Mr. Brett Favre at the controls.

The Jets are 7-3 and lead the AFC East.

Coincidence?

I think not.

Al Bundy
11-13-2008, 11:20 PM
Gruden should be on the worst list.

smittysbar
11-13-2008, 11:42 PM
Uh...

With Mr. Brett Favre at the controls.

The Jets are 7-3 and lead the AFC East.

Coincidence?

I think not.

I take it you have not watched GB this year. The offense is not the problem, matter of fact they have better numbers this year to date than last. The problem is though, their run defense, which has been horrible so far. As of last week they were giving up 4.9 YPC and ranked 27th against the run.

chief52
11-13-2008, 11:46 PM
The Packers have a three year head start on the Chiefs.


What do you mean by that? I hope you do not mean that the Pack rebuilding process started 3 years ago.

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 11:57 PM
What do you mean by that? I hope you do not mean that the Pack rebuilding process started 3 years ago.

When did start?

DaneMcCloud
11-13-2008, 11:57 PM
I take it you have not watched GB this year. The offense is not the problem, matter of fact they have better numbers this year to date than last. The problem is though, their run defense, which has been horrible so far. As of last week they were giving up 4.9 YPC and ranked 27th against the run.

Sound familiar?

DaneMcCloud
11-14-2008, 12:20 AM
Shaun Ellis (http://www.nfl.com/players/shaunellis/profile?id=ELL621162)
John Abraham (http://www.nfl.com/players/johnabraham/profile?id=ABR073003)
Chad Pennington (http://www.nfl.com/players/chadpennington/profile?id=PEN375096)
Laveranues Coles (http://www.nfl.com/players/laveranuescoles/profile?id=COL366580)
Santana Moss (http://www.nfl.com/players/santanamoss/profile?id=MOS717844)
LaMont Jordan (http://www.nfl.com/players/lamontjordan/profile?id=JOR423594)
Kareem McKenzie (http://www.nfl.com/players/kareemmckenzie/profile?id=MCK252342)
James Reed (http://www.nfl.com/players/jamesreed/profile?id=REE255104)
Bryan Thomas (http://www.nfl.com/players/bryanthomas/profile?id=THO054183)
Jon McGraw (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonmcgraw/profile?id=MCG634887)
Dewayne Robertson (http://www.nfl.com/players/dewaynerobertson/profile?id=ROB305071)
Brooks Bollinger (http://www.nfl.com/players/brooksbollinger/profile?id=BOL549216)
Jonathan Vilma (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180)
Jerricho Cotchery (http://www.nfl.com/players/jerrichocotchery/profile?id=COT027891)
Adrian Jones (http://www.nfl.com/players/adrianjones/profile?id=JON027734)
Erik Coleman (http://www.nfl.com/players/erikcoleman/profile?id=COL271731)
Derrick Ward (http://www.nfl.com/players/derrickward/profile?id=WAR147534)
Mike Nugent (http://www.nfl.com/players/mikenugent/profile?id=NUG461506)
Kerry Rhodes (http://www.nfl.com/players/kerryrhodes/profile?id=RHO457261)

All of these guys developed under Herm (the first three were drafted the prior year, 2000, but it would be a stupid argument to suggest that they weren't developed under Herm's coaching staff). Not all are "Pro Bowlers" but all of them are still in the NFL and many of them are/were extremely successful.

Take a look at the Jets previous drafts prior to Herm's arrival. Out of those years, only ONE player was worth a shit: James Farrior. The rest were nobodies.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3430&type=team





So he was quite the miserable failure, wasn't he? Not only did the Chiefs give up a first round choice for a QB who didn't last more than 5 years, the Chiefs gave up a 2nd and 3rd round choice for a coach who only brought two winning seasons out of five and NO PLAYOFF VICTORIES.

That's an extremely HIGH price to pay for NOTHING.



Because Vermeil insisted on drafting for need, not BAA. It's been widely documented that Vermeil wanted DE Tyler Brayton in 2003 and Peterson vetoed that decision. How did Vermeil respond? By acting like a fucking cry baby. VERMEIL needed to take the fucking diapers off. Grouchy old fuck.



Well, he was traded by a New York Jets team that completely overhauled their front office. Was he forced to come to KC? Of course not. But he took the job and was quickly informed that he'd be retaining the same offensive system AND coaches. Terms of the GREAT Carl Peterson. :rolleyes:




Mind? You mean like being informed a few days before training camp that the all-world left tackle was retiring? Considering the great drafting during the Vermeil years, I'm sure he didn't care at all. :rolleyes:



Of course they all have injuries. But those injuries are further exacerbated when your team has absolutely NO DEPTH.

Check the three prior drafts to Herm's arrival in NY for proof of shitty drafting from your midnight wetdream, Bill Parcells.

It's pathetic.

Where are you, Reerun?

Short Leash Hootie
11-14-2008, 01:58 AM
I would take anyone in the top 10, along with Reid, Shannahan, Payton all over Herm...

I

no one would have guessed that

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-14-2008, 02:19 AM
Uh...

With Mr. Brett Favre at the controls.

The Jets are 7-3 and lead the AFC East.

Coincidence?

I think not.

It's more of a coincidence than you think. Losing Cullen Jenkins just killed that defense, and no one else on the d-line outside of Kampman even has a pulse.

The Jets also sold out to make a one year run with Faneca, Woody, Jenkins, and Favre, among others.

the '07 Packers outperformed their expected W-L by a game and a half...they were overrated. The '08 team is underperforming compared to its sabermetric record, and it has far more injuries.

They also lost Corey Williams, got nothing from KGB after a 10 sack year, and have gotten nothing from Nick Barnett, who should be a lynchpin of that defense.

It's not as cut and dried as it may seem.

TEX
11-14-2008, 05:18 AM
Why isn't Herm on the list? I don't think that they even consider him a coach. I hate the "rebuilding" force field.

Yep. They need to look closer at the "rebuild" and see where other teams have been doing the same thing and are way ahead of us. I'll leave out the whole "rebuild" excuse - Herm definately needs to be on that list for his offensive philosophy and in-game decisions.

Goapics1
11-14-2008, 06:14 AM
Jim Zorn #1? Jim Fugging Zorn? Are you kidding me?

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 09:10 AM
Where are you, Reerun?

Still here, be patient, I will reply...

Have deadline today with class and a jet trip. So it might be awhile..

By the way, Good post, I am going to have to get my research together to reply.... So be patient.

ChiefButthurt
11-14-2008, 09:55 AM
Whitlock must be smokin' something. How can you exclude the coach of team that's 1 -8? Over the last 18 games they are 1 - 17. The effin waterboy could hardly do much worst. Rebuilding? Holy shit they demolished the team and can't find the fucking pieces.

FringeNC
11-14-2008, 10:11 AM
If all NFL coaches were suddenly released from their contracts, and told to move on to a different team, and the other teams bid on coaches....

Does anyone think Belichick wouldn't get the highest bid? Does anyone think Andy Reid would get a lower bid than Herm Edwards?

Herm Edwards was absolutely radioactive until about three weeks ago when he apparently rejected his entire offensive philosophy, and decided to embrace the modern game. In fact, I cannot think of a single example of a coach in NFL history to change offensive philosophy on a dime like Herm Edwards did. It's bizarre -- don't get me wrong, I'm glad he did. It means the rest of this season will not be waste.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 10:19 AM
If all NFL coaches were suddenly released from their contracts, and told to move on to a different team, and the other teams bid on coaches....

Does anyone think Belichick wouldn't get the highest bid? Does anyone think Andy Reid would get a lower bid than Herm Edwards?

Herm Edwards was absolutely radioactive until about three weeks ago when he apparently rejected his entire offensive philosophy, and decided to embrace the modern game. In fact, I cannot think of a single example of a coach in NFL history to change offensive philosophy on a dime like Herm Edwards did. It's bizarre -- don't get me wrong, I'm glad he did. It means the rest of this season will not be waste.

My only concern is how long will he allow it?

There are to many "What if's" with Herm right now...

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 10:22 AM
Whitlock must be smokin' something. How can you exclude the coach of team that's 1 -8? Over the last 18 games they are 1 - 17. The effin waterboy could hardly do much worst. Rebuilding? Holy shit they demolished the team and can't find the ****ing pieces.

I think the difference is there are some coaches who can't win games even though they're swimming in talent.

I agree Herm belongs in the bottom 10, and I think he's overly critical of coaches like Andy Reid (and I don't think anyone can pin the blame on McCarthy for the Favre situation--they did the right thing).

But you're completely wrong about not finding the pieces. The Chiefs have improved substantially over a team that's made up of cheap pieces. Herm's gameday decisions are and probably always will be suspect, but you have to admit that this team is making something out of nothing.

DaneMcCloud
11-14-2008, 10:32 AM
Still here, be patient, I will reply...

Have deadline today with class and a jet trip. So it might be awhile..

By the way, Good post, I am going to have to get my research together to reply.... So be patient.

You got it, my friend.

DaneMcCloud
11-14-2008, 10:33 AM
It's more of a coincidence than you think. Losing Cullen Jenkins just killed that defense, and no one else on the d-line outside of Kampman even has a pulse.

The Jets also sold out to make a one year run with Faneca, Woody, Jenkins, and Favre, among others.

the '07 Packers outperformed their expected W-L by a game and a half...they were overrated. The '08 team is underperforming compared to its sabermetric record, and it has far more injuries.

They also lost Corey Williams, got nothing from KGB after a 10 sack year, and have gotten nothing from Nick Barnett, who should be a lynchpin of that defense.

It's not as cut and dried as it may seem.

I'm sure you're right: There's more to it than just the loss of Favre.

But IMHO, the Packers wouldn't be 4-5 this year with Favre at the helm. Probably closer to 7-2.

The guy just finds ways to win.

Jawshco
11-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Wade Phillips is a figure head.

Jason Garrett is being groomed for that job, and will do well with it.

People said the same thing about Dick Vermeil and Al Saunders/Mike Martz. I don't think you can truly know until that asst. coach is in the top spot, how they'll do. For now, I'd give credit where credit is due. Hiring the right people around you is one of the most important traits of a leader, IMO.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 11:28 AM
no one would have guessed that

Says the guy that thought Huard was on the same level as Brady and Manning....

ROFL

smittysbar
11-14-2008, 11:34 AM
Dane, wasn't Coles and/or Cotchery buried on the bench? Thought I remembered a Jets fan saying that he had these guys buried, not seeing the talent.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 11:37 AM
Dane, wasn't Coles and/or Cotchery buried on the bench? Thought I remembered a Jets fan saying that he had these guys buried, not seeing the talent.

There were a couple of players, I am trying to research that... But I think you were right...

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 12:35 AM
Shaun Ellis (http://www.nfl.com/players/shaunellis/profile?id=ELL621162)
John Abraham (http://www.nfl.com/players/johnabraham/profile?id=ABR073003)
Chad Pennington (http://www.nfl.com/players/chadpennington/profile?id=PEN375096)
Laveranues Coles (http://www.nfl.com/players/laveranuescoles/profile?id=COL366580)
Santana Moss (http://www.nfl.com/players/santanamoss/profile?id=MOS717844)
LaMont Jordan (http://www.nfl.com/players/lamontjordan/profile?id=JOR423594)
Kareem McKenzie (http://www.nfl.com/players/kareemmckenzie/profile?id=MCK252342)
James Reed (http://www.nfl.com/players/jamesreed/profile?id=REE255104)
Bryan Thomas (http://www.nfl.com/players/bryanthomas/profile?id=THO054183)
Jon McGraw (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonmcgraw/profile?id=MCG634887)
Dewayne Robertson (http://www.nfl.com/players/dewaynerobertson/profile?id=ROB305071)
Brooks Bollinger (http://www.nfl.com/players/brooksbollinger/profile?id=BOL549216)
Jonathan Vilma (http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180)
Jerricho Cotchery (http://www.nfl.com/players/jerrichocotchery/profile?id=COT027891)
Adrian Jones (http://www.nfl.com/players/adrianjones/profile?id=JON027734)
Erik Coleman (http://www.nfl.com/players/erikcoleman/profile?id=COL271731)
Derrick Ward (http://www.nfl.com/players/derrickward/profile?id=WAR147534)
Mike Nugent (http://www.nfl.com/players/mikenugent/profile?id=NUG461506)
Kerry Rhodes (http://www.nfl.com/players/kerryrhodes/profile?id=RHO457261)

All of these guys developed under Herm (the first three were drafted the prior year, 2000, but it would be a stupid argument to suggest that they weren't developed under Herm's coaching staff). Not all are "Pro Bowlers" but all of them are still in the NFL and many of them are/were extremely successful.

Take a look at the Jets previous drafts prior to Herm's arrival. Out of those years, only ONE player was worth a shit: James Farrior. The rest were nobodies.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3430&type=team





So he was quite the miserable failure, wasn't he? Not only did the Chiefs give up a first round choice for a QB who didn't last more than 5 years, the Chiefs gave up a 2nd and 3rd round choice for a coach who only brought two winning seasons out of five and NO PLAYOFF VICTORIES.

That's an extremely HIGH price to pay for NOTHING.



Because Vermeil insisted on drafting for need, not BAA. It's been widely documented that Vermeil wanted DE Tyler Brayton in 2003 and Peterson vetoed that decision. How did Vermeil respond? By acting like a ****ing cry baby. VERMEIL needed to take the ****ing diapers off. Grouchy old ****.



Well, he was traded by a New York Jets team that completely overhauled their front office. Was he forced to come to KC? Of course not. But he took the job and was quickly informed that he'd be retaining the same offensive system AND coaches. Terms of the GREAT Carl Peterson. :rolleyes:




Mind? You mean like being informed a few days before training camp that the all-world left tackle was retiring? Considering the great drafting during the Vermeil years, I'm sure he didn't care at all. :rolleyes:



Of course they all have injuries. But those injuries are further exacerbated when your team has absolutely NO DEPTH.

Check the three prior drafts to Herm's arrival in NY for proof of shitty drafting from your midnight wetdream, Bill Parcells.

It's pathetic.

Okay Dane, I posted this list of players on the Jets board just to get their insight, as I knew that some of them were not developed by Herm and some were impact players from the get go. Having 4 1st round picks in a year will do that lol. I will post the replies as they come, good or bad, and believe it or not, they probably have more Herm supporters than the Chiefs do.

You might have opened a can of worms here, as this could turn into another one of the I hate Herm-I love Herm things that occur regularly around here. I will try to stay as objective as possible here with a few reactions. Several of those players were drafted before Herm got here, so at least from that point of view he had nothing to do with them. Ellis was drafted in the first round the year before Herm came here; he had 8.5 sacks that year as a rookie, so it certainly took no skill to recognize his talent. Same story for John Abraham - he was also drafted in the first round that year, and had 4.5 sacks in only 6 games, so everyone knew about him. Herm certainly did keep playing them, of course. Pennington also was drafted in the first round that year (the Jets had 4 first round picks), but he didn't start until 2002 under Herm, and I'm sure he would give Herm a lot of credit for helping him in his career. Laveranues Coles also was drafted that year (third round), and his career took off in his second year, Herm's first year; on the other hand, Coles left the Jets as a free agent after his second year with Herm, before coming back.

Moss was drafted in Herm's first year, but he only had one good year under Herm and was then sent packing, so I don't know how much credit Herm gets for him. Jordan was drafted in Herm's first year, but he hardly played in his 4 years under Herm (he averaged fewer than 6 carries per game each year), so I don't see how that goes with recognizing his talent (of course, Curtis Martin was here at the time). Herm completely buried Cotchery on the bench during his first 2 seasons (that was one of the biggest complaints about him here); when Herm left Cotchery suddenly became a 1000-yard receiver. Herm gets NO credit for him. Kerry Rhodes and Jonathan Vilma were both drafted when Herm was here, and both immediately made an impact, so Herm certainly recognized their abilities right away.

Overall, I would say that Pennington, Rhodes, and Vilma would be clear marks on the plus side for Herm, Cotchery and Jordan would be clear marks on the minus side, and for a lot of the others it's hard to say one way or the other. <!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-15-2008, 06:43 AM
I'm sure you're right: There's more to it than just the loss of Favre.

But IMHO, the Packers wouldn't be 4-5 this year with Favre at the helm. Probably closer to 7-2.

The guy just finds ways to win.

They went 4-12 with him, they can surely go 8-8 without him.

Short Leash Hootie
11-15-2008, 07:30 AM
Meh.

I was done with Herm after the Falcons/Panthers/Titans debacle...

But all I wanted this season was progress and I've seen more than enough from Herm and our young players the past week, and if it continues to any degree, I'm ok with Herm getting one more shot...meaning one more good draft and AT LEAST 7 wins and the 2008 rookie class showing promise in 2009.

Rausch
11-15-2008, 09:30 AM
Andy Reid is the worst coach in the NFL?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e256/cw_for_prez/icons/stupid.jpg

DaneMcCloud
11-15-2008, 11:17 AM
Dane, wasn't Coles and/or Cotchery buried on the bench? Thought I remembered a Jets fan saying that he had these guys buried, not seeing the talent.

No. Coles played immediately. Cotchery played in 12 games his rookie year and every game since.

So they certainly weren't "buried".

And if you'll recall, the Jets were trying so hard to get their passing game to happen that even with Coles on the roster, they spent a number one on Santana Moss.

There's quite a bit of misunderstanding and fallacy when it comes to Herm's development of players around here.

DaneMcCloud
11-15-2008, 11:19 AM
They went 4-12 with him, they can surely go 8-8 without him.

That's not a fair comparison though because that was before their rebuild. That team was a mess, hence the firing of Sherman and hiring of Mac.

R&GHomer
11-15-2008, 12:40 PM
I think the problem with Jerry Jones is he tampers with things too much and never really completely trusts the personel he hires to do their job. That's kind of the consequences of Jones. The guy will go and get whoever it takes to win and will shell out his money to do it but too often gets in a power struggle with the coaches who aren't his yes men.

Kind of funny a couple of weeks ago on the local sports talk radio they were trying to argue that Jerry Jones is a younger version of Al Davis if you can believe it.

I can certainly see it. Guess I can't really say. Jones is an intelligent person, I have no idea what liver spot was like when he was younger. He couldn't have been too much of a wacko.

Buzzsaw
11-15-2008, 12:51 PM
Dane, wasn't Coles and/or Cotchery buried on the bench? Thought I remembered a Jets fan saying that he had these guys buried, not seeing the talent.

Cotchery, a guy who broke nearly every one of Tory Holt's receiving records at NC State, had more special teams tackles than receptions in his first two years in the league. I will always hate Herm for not giving him a chance, especially since Justin Fucking McCareins was ahead of him on the depth chart AND we were 4-12 in 05, we had nothing to lose.

Dylan
11-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Here's a few New York Jets players that I know about --

Kareem McKenzie, Apr 21, 2001: Drafted by the New York Jets in the 3rd round (79th overall) in 2001. Released by the New York Jets Mar 4, 2005: Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the New York Giants Mar 5, 2005 to a seven year contract. SOLID player -- great Off T

Derrick Ward, Apr 25, 2004: Drafted by the New York Jets in the 7th round (235th overall) in 2004. Sep 5, 2004: Released by the New York Jets. Sep 6, 2004: Signed by the New York Jets to the practice squad. Signed by the New York Giants from the New York Jets practice squad. Avg 5.5 ypc, 2nd behind Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw behind Ward, Bradshaw used in the 4th qtr

Santana Moss, Apr 21, 2001: Drafted by the New York Jets in the 1st round (16th overall) in 2001. Mar 9, 2005: New York Jets traded Santana Moss to the Washington Redskins for Laveranues Coles. Signed by the Washington Redskins to a six-year contract.

Jerricho Cotchery, Apr 25, 2004: Drafted by the New York Jets in the 4th round (108th overall) in 2004. Hardly every used under Herm - 2005 -came off the bench a couple of times for a few plays.


Laveranues Coles Apr 15, 2000: Drafted by the New York Jets in the 3rd round (78th overall) in 2000. Mar 19, 2003: Signed as a restricted free agent by the Washington Redskins. Mar 9, 2005: New York Jets traded Santana Moss to the Washington Redskins for Laveranues Coles.

smittysbar
11-16-2008, 04:22 PM
Here is another post
Shaun Ellis - He definitly didn't develop Ellis
John Abraham - He sat out a PO game with a cold with Herm as coach
Chad Pennington - ....Umm Herm if anything hindered Chads developement
Laveranues Coles - Coles was a good player long before Herm
Santana Moss - Moss didn't really break out until he left for Washington
LaMont Jordan - Had the benefit of running in rotation with Curtis Martin
Kareem McKenzie - Played with Mawae
James Reed - What lol?
Bryan Thomas - Bryan Thomas had one good year with Herm
Jon McGraw - LOL
Dewayne Robertson - LOL
Brooks Bollinger - LOL
Jonathan Vilma - He did have his best years under Herm I will give him that.
Jerricho Cotchery - Broke out under Mangini
Adrian Jones - LOL
Erik Coleman - ... really?
Derrick Ward - LOL
Mike Nugent - Westhoff
Kerry Rhodes - Donnie Henderson

enough said...

herm is garbage

DaneMcCloud
11-16-2008, 04:39 PM
Here is another post


That person is a fucking idiot.

smittysbar
11-16-2008, 06:34 PM
LOL! Herm walked into a team that had FOUR 1st round picks a year before his arrival + Coles (who was 1st rd talent if not for his off field incident and thrown under the bus by Bowden)

Shaun Ellis - 1st rd pick by Parcells & Groh - already established stud
John Abraham - 1st rd pick by Parcells & Groh - already established stud
Chad Pennington - 1st rd pick by Parcells & Groh - finally got a shot when Vinny was looking BAD and hurt vs JAX
Laveranues Coles - by Parcells & Groh - no brainer best WR on team
Santana Moss - Thought so high of him that they brought in CURTIS CONWAY when Coles left
LaMont Jordan - good pick, but under utilized as they gave too many carries to a good RB (just like LJ)
Kareem McKenzie - shouldn't of let him walk, but I'd say that's Boobway's fault
James Reed - heh?
Bryan Thomas - (not worth a shit until Mangini made him an OLB) in the draft safety was a clear need, and Ed Reed was still on the board. YAY we get Bryan Thomas...but in next round we'll get:
Jon McGraw - oops we missed Ed Reed, we'll get Jon GlassJaw McGraw. Made some plays, but usually running full speed and smashing the guy with his shoulder resulting in injury
Dewayne Robertson: Another combine workout warrior. "Fatass with a butter knife". a reactionary draft pick when Josh Evans was to be suspended. He had some moments but
2 1st rd picks and a 4th?!?!?!?!?!
Brooks Bollinger- little guy did well given the situation
Jonathan Vilma - Played well from the get go. No disputing this guy.
Jerricho Cotchery - BAH! let's let him sit on the bench. WTF?!?!
Adrian Jones - ???
Erik Coleman - actually made some plays his rookie year then dissappeared
Derrick Ward - great evalution of talent. The NYG's should send him a thankyou card
Mike Nugent - SCAPEGOAT pick...... we would've been to the conference championship if we had a better kicker (or maybe not taking a freakin knee) let's trade our 1st round pick for a POS TE (is Jolley even in the NFL anymore) and 2nd rd pick to draft a KICKER. Bradway deserves some credit on this too.

Kerry Rhodes- great pick.

Have fun in KC! http://forums.theganggreen.com/images/smilies/image002.gif


To be fair, Vilma didn't really get to start playing until Cowart got hurt.


Yeah, but Cowart was playing fairly well, and it was the beginning of Vilma's rookie season. Vilma just came in and played better.


Shaun Ellis - Herm almost ruined him by switching him to DT.
Bryan Thomas - Did nothing the whole Herm tenure.
Jon McGraw - If he is 'developed', then you have low expectations.
Dewayne Robertson - see above
Jonathan Vilma - Only good one, but arguably would have been good anywhere
Jerricho Cotchery - Sat him. Case closed.
Erik Coleman - Definitely had potential, but did Herm bring that out like his rookie year, or somehow stifle it, leading to him disappearing?
Kerry Rhodes - Can't argue with this one

The one thing I will add is during the whole Herm/Bradway tenure, it almost felt like we were becoming 'Kansas City East'. By that I mean (and I mean no offense to the original poster) more of a 500 team that was kinda.. I dont know how to put it...'gentle'? 'Vanilla'? I actually don't mind the Chiefs, but even during their playoff runs and their years with a high powered offense, 'tough' and 'bruising' are never words you would associate with them. They were always (almost frustratingly) like a favorite Aunt and Uncle... Fun to be around, but kinda... Harmless. Thats actually the perfect word. The Jets, much like the Chiefs, became 'Harmless' during the Herm era... Both to other teams (cough), but mainly in people's perception. Both teams could be considered 'nice'. Not really the image you want to portray.

..

DaneMcCloud
11-16-2008, 06:41 PM
..

Again, that's fucking bullshit.

Abraham, Ellis and Pennington were drafted in 2000. The team went 9-7. They weren't fucking "developed", nor where they immediate studs. They played and improved over the 5 years Edwards was head coach. To deny that is fucking lunatic bullshit.

As for Cotchery, he was a 4th round pick that played in 13 games his rookie season (not unlike our own Will Franklin). In 2005 with several starting QB's, he had 19 catches, then has averaged 82 per seaons (with a healthy QB, I might add).

But I guess Herm and his staff had no input in his development, right?

Those sounds like typical uninformed, fan bullshit.

macdawg
11-21-2008, 10:32 PM
The Packers have a three year head start on the Chiefs.

And they're 4-5.

Not exactly a record to write home about.


As another poster said, a team in an NFC championship game isn't a rebuilding team.

I think some of you missed my point that a youth movement doesn't mean a terrible team, the Bears team that lost to the Pats a couple of SB's ago was a very young team.

MahiMike
11-24-2008, 06:29 PM
The whole time I read the article, I waited with anticipation that Herm would go higher and higher. All the way to #1 worst coach. And then...

The whole damn article was irrelevant because he was inexplicably left off. This from a guy that covers Chiefs games? Jason! What up dude?

StcChief
11-24-2008, 06:43 PM
The whole time I read the article, I waited with anticipation that Herm would go higher and higher. All the way to #1 worst coach. And then...

The whole damn article was irrelevant because he was inexplicably left off. This from a guy that covers Chiefs games? Jason! What up dude?new media....it's like a movie expecting a follow up...part 2.....

amazing what a 24X7 new cycle does to a reporter.