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dorseybowe
11-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Do YOU want Herm back next year?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm still evaluating him.

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Nope

mikeyis4dcats.
11-14-2008, 12:39 PM
poll?

Bwana
11-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Hell no.

Garcia Bronco
11-14-2008, 12:40 PM
Yes. :)

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 12:40 PM
Poll?

Uh Hell no, I would preferred his is fired today and let Gailey finish out the season...

talastan
11-14-2008, 12:40 PM
C - If Carl is no longer GM, B - if Carl is retained

BigChiefFan
11-14-2008, 12:40 PM
NO!!!!He isn't a good coach. He may be a decent motivator, but his football game day decisions are hopeless.

Ari Chi3fs
11-14-2008, 12:40 PM
FUCK NO.

Dylan
11-14-2008, 12:41 PM
i voted no :(

1-17 -- that's a ridiculous amount of games to lose for any sports fan to go through. he should lose his job

KCKID58
11-14-2008, 12:42 PM
no way !!!!

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 12:42 PM
Do YOU want Herm back next year?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm still evaluating him.

How can you still be evaluating him?

The Indy playoff game was enough. Herm spoke volumes about his integerity, knowledge, game time adjustments and just over all lack of pride of being the Chiefs Headcoach.

Bwana
11-14-2008, 12:43 PM
Yes. :)

You prick!

ROFL

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 12:43 PM
BTW, thanks for making it public...

JASONSAUTO
11-14-2008, 12:43 PM
NO NO NO NO, i couldnt believe that someone voted yes then i saw who it was, makes sense now...

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 12:44 PM
NO NO NO NO, i couldnt believe that someone voted yes then i saw who it was, makes sense now...

Wasnt surprised either....

dorseybowe
11-14-2008, 12:45 PM
How can you still be evaluating him?

The Indy playoff game was enough. Herm spoke volumes about his integerity, knowledge, game time adjustments and just over all lack of pride of being the Chiefs Headcoach.

If the team continues to improve, I credit Herm for that improvement and believe he should stay. If not, I believe a change is needed.

blueballs
11-14-2008, 12:48 PM
this could be brutal

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 12:48 PM
If the team continues to improve, I credit Herm for that improvement and believe he should stay. If not, I believe a change is needed.

If the team especially the offense continues to improve, I credit Gailey...

The defense is still in shambles, lack of talent, injuries and that was supposed to be Herms strong point. He was supposed to come in with his "keen eye" and get this defense fixed. Its worse now than it EVER was with GROB and DV....

Herm hasnt backed up his mouth, which he freely ran when he arrived. He sure talks a big game, while producing very little.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 12:49 PM
this could be brutal


Eh, there will be a few that vote for Herm... I would say the NO's will out favor the Yes's 10+ to 1....

alpha_omega
11-14-2008, 12:51 PM
No. I like the guy, but i think it is clear that he is nothing but bad news.

...and take Carl with you!

REDHOTGTO
11-14-2008, 12:52 PM
did'nt want him when we got him in the first place

Big Chief Homer
11-14-2008, 12:54 PM
D: HELL NO!!!!

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 12:55 PM
Yes. But the clock for his job starts ticking in 2009.

He's proven to be really good at building teams. And there's no doubt we have some really good young players that are getting better and, much as people refuse to acknowledge it, they're getting better because of good coaching.

We start worrying about gameday decisions and execution in 2010. I would love for Herm to give us another really strong offseason and make good personnel decisions that build the foundation for the next head coach to take over and take this team over the top. As of now, Herm hasn't proven to me that he's good enough to coach in 2010. But in 2009, he definitely deserves one more year.

talastan
11-14-2008, 01:01 PM
Yes. But the clock for his job starts ticking in 2009.

He's proven to be really good at building teams. And there's no doubt we have some really good young players that are getting better and, much as people refuse to acknowledge it, they're getting better because of good coaching.

We start worrying about gameday decisions and execution in 2010. I would love for Herm to give us another really strong offseason and make good personnel decisions that build the foundation for the next head coach to take over and take this team over the top. As of now, Herm hasn't proven to me that he's good enough to coach in 2010. But in 2009, he definitely deserves one more year.

I want CeePee out! Herm had just this year to really tear the thing down and rebuild. If improvement continues through this season, let the new GM make the decision to evaluate Herm. Otherwise he should be gone if things fall apart.

Demonpenz
11-14-2008, 01:01 PM
Next year herm will be able to instill his pound the rock attitude with good defence. This year he is just dealing the hand he is given with the injuries

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 01:04 PM
Yes. But the clock for his job starts ticking in 2009.

He's proven to be really good at building teams. And there's no doubt we have some really good young players that are getting better and, much as people refuse to acknowledge it, they're getting better because of good coaching.

We start worrying about gameday decisions and execution in 2010. I would love for Herm to give us another really strong offseason and make good personnel decisions that build the foundation for the next head coach to take over and take this team over the top. As of now, Herm hasn't proven to me that he's good enough to coach in 2010. But in 2009, he definitely deserves one more year.

where do you people come up with this?

Old Dog
11-14-2008, 01:05 PM
HELL No

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 01:06 PM
If the team especially the offense continues to improve, I credit Gailey...

The defense is still in shambles, lack of talent, injuries and that was supposed to be Herms strong point. He was supposed to come in with his "keen eye" and get this defense fixed. Its worse now than it EVER was with GROB and DV....

Herm hasnt backed up his mouth, which he freely ran when he arrived. He sure talks a big game, while producing very little.

But, GoReerun_kC the team is improving:rolleyes: can't you see that?

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:06 PM
where do you people come up with this?

I was going to ask the same thing? He left NYJ in a wreck...

At what point has he proved he knows how to build a really good team?

Demonpenz
11-14-2008, 01:06 PM
Yes. But the clock for his job starts ticking in 2009.

He's proven to be really good at building teams. And there's no doubt we have some really good young players that are getting better and, much as people refuse to acknowledge it, they're getting better because of good coaching.

We start worrying about gameday decisions and execution in 2010. I would love for Herm to give us another really strong offseason and make good personnel decisions that build the foundation for the next head coach to take over and take this team over the top. As of now, Herm hasn't proven to me that he's good enough to coach in 2010. But in 2009, he definitely deserves one more year.


Nail/head :clap:

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 01:08 PM
Nail/head :clap:

yeah, I agree....he is talking like he has a nail in his head

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:08 PM
Nail/head :clap:

I think you really meant, Gun/Mouth/pull trigger....

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 01:09 PM
where do you people come up with this?

Do you not like the additions of Branden Albert, Brandon Flowers, Mark Bradley, Tyler Thigpen, Glenn Dorsey, Dwayne Bowe, Jarrad Page, Brandon Carr, Jamaal Charles, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Mike Cox, Kevin Robinson, Connor Barth?

These guys are all keepers, even if guys like McBride or Tyler are only valuable depth guys.

I've liked most of the personnel moves we've made in 2008. Therefore, I trust that he can do that again in 2009. One more year of moves like this and we'll have built a really good foundation, even if that's a foundation that another head coach uses to put the team over the top.

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 01:10 PM
Do you not like the additions of Branden Albert, Brandon Flowers, Mark Bradley, Tyler Thigpen, Glenn Dorsey, Dwayne Bowe, Jarrad Page, Brandon Carr, Jamaal Charles, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Mike Cox, Kevin Robinson, Connor Barth?

These guys are all keepers, even if guys like McBride or Tyler are only valuable depth guys.

I've liked most of the personnel moves we've made in 2008. Therefore, I trust that he can do that again in 2009. One more year of moves like this and we'll have built a really good foundation, even if that's a foundation that another head coach uses to put the team over the top.

then you should say he brought in good players....he hasn't built a team...

Demonpenz
11-14-2008, 01:12 PM
Do you not like the additions of Branden Albert, Brandon Flowers, Mark Bradley, Tyler Thigpen, Glenn Dorsey, Dwayne Bowe, Jarrad Page, Brandon Carr, Jamaal Charles, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Mike Cox, Kevin Robinson, Connor Barth?

These guys are all keepers, even if guys like McBride or Tyler are only valuable depth guys.

I've liked most of the personnel moves we've made in 2008. Therefore, I trust that he can do that again in 2009. One more year of moves like this and we'll have built a really good foundation, even if that's a foundation that another head coach uses to put the team over the top.

BOOM! REP BOMB! :clap:

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 01:12 PM
Yes, I want Herm back. I know it isn't a popular position.... but, he is doing a good job with what he got when he arrived.

Drafts are better, and there is a LOT more young talent on this roster than at any point in the last 10 years.

Demonpenz
11-14-2008, 01:13 PM
I think you really meant, Gun/Mouth/pull trigger....

no, I ment Nail on head :clap:

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:15 PM
Do you not like the additions of Branden Albert, Brandon Flowers, Mark Bradley, Tyler Thigpen, Glenn Dorsey, Dwayne Bowe, Jarrad Page, Brandon Carr, Jamaal Charles, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Mike Cox, Kevin Robinson, Connor Barth?

These guys are all keepers, even if guys like McBride or Tyler are only valuable depth guys.

I've liked most of the personnel moves we've made in 2008. Therefore, I trust that he can do that again in 2009. One more year of moves like this and we'll have built a really good foundation, even if that's a foundation that another head coach uses to put the team over the top.

You said he has proven that he can build really solid teams...

That is past tense...

So you are saying he is trying to build a solid foundation for the future?

I think once the DL gets a sack this year... Then Herm will have proven to build a great defense...

Chief Faithful
11-14-2008, 01:18 PM
then you should say he brought in good players....he hasn't built a team...

The last three games have shown a team is being built. I say yes he deserves another year.

Demonpenz
11-14-2008, 01:18 PM
Yes, I want Herm back. I know it isn't a popular position.... but, he is doing a good job with what he got when he arrived.

Drafts are better, and there is a LOT more young talent on this roster than at any point in the last 10 years.

:clap:

Dave Lane
11-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Great so the Donks want him here. Well that does speak volumes i suppose.

RustShack
11-14-2008, 01:25 PM
If Herm completely stays out of the offense, AND hires a good DC who knows how to run his "Tampa Two" defense... I COULD live with it. However, I would prefer a new HC assuming it was an upgrade from Herm.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Zouk = YES! LMAO

Deberg_1990
11-14-2008, 01:26 PM
Has there ever been a HC who has won less than 6 or 7 games in two years brought back?? Thats what id like to know.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 01:26 PM
If Herm completely stays out of the offense
That will never happen. just accept it. he NEVER learns from his mistakes. EVER.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 01:27 PM
Has there ever been a HC who has won less than 6 or 7 games in two years brought back?? Thats what id like to know.

But he made the playoff in 3 out of....uh...what is it now...hhhmmm 7 years?

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 01:28 PM
The last three games have shown a team is being built. I say yes he deserves another year.
so how long do you think it takes? By the end of the year and they have how many wins? You can't go 1-15 this season and say, wow, look at the team Herm built. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.....HELLO?
I haven't seen that built into this team yet.

RustShack
11-14-2008, 01:28 PM
That will never happen. just accept it. he NEVER learns from his mistakes. EVER.

You must not have been able to watch recent Chiefs games in your area then. While it still has touches of Herm, it seems hes being phased out more and more every game.

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 01:29 PM
Has there ever been a HC who has won less than 6 or 7 games in two years brought back?? Thats what id like to know.

Jeff Fisher

He went 5-11, 4-12, and 0-5

It's not the same record, but they're equally bad. By season's end, Herm could be close.

RustShack
11-14-2008, 01:30 PM
so how long do you think it takes? By the end of the year and they have how many wins? You can't go 1-15 this season and say, wow, look at the team Herm built. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.....HELLO?
I haven't seen that built into this team yet.

This is the first year of the big rebuild, and it typically takes coaches three years... Most new coaches are aloud to start rebuilding their first year, Herm wasn't.

King_Chief_Fan
11-14-2008, 01:31 PM
This is the first year of the big rebuild, and it typically takes coaches three years... Most new coaches are aloud to start rebuilding their first year, Herm wasn't.

okay, just wanted to know how long it takes....seems like Miami is moving much faster than that in the first year of the coach and GM.

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 01:33 PM
If Herm completely stays out of the offense, AND hires a good DC who knows how to run his "Tampa Two" defense... I COULD live with it. However, I would prefer a new HC assuming it was an upgrade from Herm.

I agree with that. I wonder if the Chiefs take a long look at Marinelli. I believe he was Herm's first choice years for DC back in New York.

Gun needs to go no matter what. My only concern is that if the Chiefs hire a new DC, it could buy Herm time beyond 2009. But I think Herm deserves 2009 but needs to fight very hard to keep his job beyond 2009.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:33 PM
That will never happen. just accept it. he NEVER learns from his mistakes. EVER.

Your just a bitter Jets fan... We STOLE your coach.. It happens, get over it, its called life...

Herm didnt have the front office and talent like we have in KC...

Bitter Jets Fan!

Deberg_1990
11-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Jeff Fisher

He went 5-11, 4-12, and 0-5

It's not the same record, but they're equally bad. By season's end, Herm could be close.

We shall see if Herm is close or not. My guess is that the Chiefs win 2 games.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Jeff Fisher

He went 5-11, 4-12, and 0-5

It's not the same record, but they're equally bad. By season's end, Herm could be close.

I think your boy will trump that...

2005 4-12
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 1-8 so far....

Pretty anemic to say the least....

the Talking Can
11-14-2008, 01:36 PM
Do YOU want Herm back next year?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm still evaluating him.

would you want aids again?

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 01:37 PM
okay, just wanted to know how long it takes....seems like Miami is moving much faster than that in the first year of the coach and GM.

I don't think they are, necessarily. Keep in mind that they've had a top 10 pick 3 of the last 4 years, and that the reason they're winning is because of a good but not great veteran QB.

The Chiefs aren't trying to settle for "good enough" veterans. I like that the Chiefs didn't even try to sniff Pennington, despite his history with Herm.

It's very difficult to compare the Chiefs' situation to any other team's. Carl Peterson decimated this team by 5-10 years of lousy drafts. We talk a lot about rebuilding, but when your GM brings in zero good young players through the draft, there's not a whole lot you can do.

Last year was the first year I began to see positives out of our draft day. This year, our draft was a grand slam. We put together another one of those drafts, and I guarantee we're playoff competitive again.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:37 PM
That will never happen. just accept it. he NEVER learns from his mistakes. EVER.

Damn you bitter Jets Fan...

You voted yes, I am guessing you never want us relevant again in the AFC?

Bastard! :cuss::cuss:

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 01:38 PM
I think your boy will trump that...

2005 4-12
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 1-8 so far....

Pretty anemic to say the least....

Umm... 4-12 was a different team. That doesn't quite apply. But nice way to conveniently set up your argument.

RustShack
11-14-2008, 01:39 PM
I agree with that. I wonder if the Chiefs take a long look at Marinelli. I believe he was Herm's first choice years for DC back in New York.

Gun needs to go no matter what. My only concern is that if the Chiefs hire a new DC, it could buy Herm time beyond 2009. But I think Herm deserves 2009 but needs to fight very hard to keep his job beyond 2009.

I think he wanted to bring over his DC coach from the Jets but then decided to keep Gun as the DC, so he wanted to bring that guy(Henderson?) over as the DB coach but then I think he got a DC job with another team. If Marinelli is fired I wouldn't mind bringing him over as a DC.

Skip Towne
11-14-2008, 01:39 PM
where do you people come up with this?

N00b

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:41 PM
I don't think they are, necessarily. Keep in mind that they've had a top 10 pick 3 of the last 4 years, and that the reason they're winning is because of a good but not great veteran QB.

The Chiefs aren't trying to settle for "good enough" veterans. I like that the Chiefs didn't even try to sniff Pennington, despite his history with Herm.

It's very difficult to compare the Chiefs' situation to any other team's. Carl Peterson decimated this team by 5-10 years of lousy drafts. We talk a lot about rebuilding, but when your GM brings in zero good young players through the draft, there's not a whole lot you can do.

Last year was the first year I began to see positives out of our draft day. This year, our draft was a grand slam. We put together another one of those drafts, and I guarantee we're playoff competitive again.

We have been playoff competitive once in the last 20 years....

Heck we wont even playoff relevant at least until 2011...

Simply Red
11-14-2008, 01:43 PM
Yes. :)

lol

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 01:44 PM
We have been playoff competitive once in the last 20 years....

Heck we wont even playoff relevant at least until 2011...

If we give Herm one more offseason, I guarantee we're playoff-worthy in 2009. As I've said, I believe it will take another coach to take a herm foundation and make them Super Bowl competitive. But I trust Herm to build that foundation. Who knows, maybe he becomes a better game manageir in that time. I've been pleased with his decisions to go for 2 and pass on a clock-milking situation the last 2 weeks. Maybe, like Marty in San Diego and Dungy in Indy, he's starting to trust his offensive coordinator enough that he doesn't say a word.

RustShack
11-14-2008, 01:44 PM
We have been playoff competitive once in the last 20 years....

Heck we wont even playoff relevant at least until 2011...

If the Chiefs keep playing like this(while losing), we have another good draft, we bring in a few free agents, and make a few coaching staff changes I could see us making the playoffs next year. I feel that way mainly because we play in the AFC West.

Chief Faithful
11-14-2008, 01:45 PM
Has there ever been a HC who has won less than 6 or 7 games in two years brought back?? Thats what id like to know.

The Titans have one right now.

Deberg_1990
11-14-2008, 01:47 PM
This year, our draft was a grand slam.

You sure about that? I think it takes 3 years to judge a draft.

Skip Towne
11-14-2008, 01:49 PM
Next YEAR? I don't want him back next WEEK!!!

Goapics1
11-14-2008, 01:50 PM
poll is a little lopsided.

DaWolf
11-14-2008, 01:51 PM
I voted no. However if he is back next year, I will be able to live with it only if Gunther Cunningham and co are replaced. If he gets a 3rd year, the front office needs to pull a DV on him....

Chief Faithful
11-14-2008, 01:51 PM
so how long do you think it takes? By the end of the year and they have how many wins? You can't go 1-15 this season and say, wow, look at the team Herm built. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.....HELLO?
I haven't seen that built into this team yet.

You are asking for my expectations? I did not expect a good record, but I did expect the team to load up on young talent and start a building process from the ground up. I was concerned after the Carolina game, but the last three games have been very encouraging. In my mind the team is headed in the right direction so I'm not counting games.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 01:55 PM
If the Chiefs keep playing like this(while losing), we have another good draft, we bring in a few free agents, and make a few coaching staff changes I could see us making the playoffs next year. I feel that way mainly because we play in the AFC West.

It will be tough, we have to see how Herms handles this new offensive success. I have seen enough in the past that he will shell up when the game is on the line.


He will have to continue to play modern day football if he wants to see the playoffs next year. Teams are progressing forward, we have to as well..

IF Herm was gone, I would pretty much guarantee a playoff bid..

Chief Faithful
11-14-2008, 02:01 PM
I think your boy will trump that...

2005 4-12
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 1-8 so far....

Pretty anemic to say the least....

2005 - 10-6 under DV oldest team in the NFL. Part of the problem Herm could not start rebuilding until 2008 because of the success in 2005 and 2006.

2007 was one of the oldest teams in the NFL and the talent collapsed. 2008 youngest team in the NFL in the first year rebuilding.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 02:07 PM
You must not have been able to watch recent Chiefs games in your area then. While it still has touches of Herm, it seems hes being phased out more and more every game.

But in key situations he gets involved and costs you the game. like in the Jets game.

He'll change the game plan if Thigpen has one fucking turnover.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:15 PM
I was going to ask the same thing? He left NYJ in a wreck...

At what point has he proved he knows how to build a really good team?

The Jets went to the playoffs the next year. The QB he developed in NY is the main reason the Phins are doing well.

He came in fourth in head coaches that players would want to play for.

He just got screwed by taking over an underachieving over the hill veteran team.

For the record, Herm has as many playoff appearances as the two guys that coached here prior to him.

This was not a great team. It was a talented team that lacked toughness and was old. He is rebuilding the team, and we are starting to see the improvement.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 02:16 PM
The Jets went to the playoffs the next year. The QB he developed in NY is the main reason the Phins are doing well.

He came in fourth in head coaches that players would want to play for.

He just got screwed by taking over an underachieving over the hill veteran team.

For the record, Herm has as many playoff appearances as the two guys that coached here prior to him.

This was not a great team. It was a talented team that lacked toughness and was old. He is rebuilding the team, and we are starting to see the improvement.
The Hermaphrodites are coming out of the closet now.

ROFL

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:19 PM
Has there ever been a HC who has won less than 6 or 7 games in two years brought back?? Thats what id like to know.

Jeff Fisher in 04/05.

DV with the Rams.

There are LOTS of guys. Still need to see how the rest of this year goes, but if they continue to play like they have the last three weeks, then I think he gets to come back.

Micjones
11-14-2008, 02:22 PM
Absolutely not.

My only rationale for bringing him back is retaining the quality young players another coach may not particularly be fond of. But that's simply not enough for me to want to keep him on.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:22 PM
okay, just wanted to know how long it takes....seems like Miami is moving much faster than that in the first year of the coach and GM.

Yes, with the QB that Herm developed. Hmmm. The same QB that Herm made the playoffs with many times.

Remember, no one thought the fins would be that bad last year. They had a ton of close games and a lot of injuries. Hmm.... sounds familiar.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:23 PM
We have been playoff competitive once in the last 20 years....

Heck we wont even playoff relevant at least until 2011...

Not if Herm sticks around. Chiefs will be in the playoffs next year.

Molitoth
11-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Yes if he keeps the spread offense. No if he wants to go back to R2P2.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Yes, with the QB that Herm developed. Hmmm. The same QB that Herm made the playoffs with many times.

Remember, no one thought the fins would be that bad last year. They had a ton of close games and a lot of injuries. Hmm.... sounds familiar.

Stop with the garbage. Herm didn't develop Pennington. he got put in after Testaverde got hurt in 2002 after Herm had already said ''it's Vinny's team''.

Get out of here with your distorted horseshit revision of Jets history. I'll bet you're Lia Edwards.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:27 PM
It will be tough, we have to see how Herms handles this new offensive success. I have seen enough in the past that he will shell up when the game is on the line.


He will have to continue to play modern day football if he wants to see the playoffs next year. Teams are progressing forward, we have to as well..

IF Herm was gone, I would pretty much guarantee a playoff bid..


Yeah, because those undefeated Titans are so revolutionary. Give me a break.

Why are the Chiefs able to put up leads the first half and lose them? They are out scheming the competition. But, you can only trick a team so long. Then, it comes down to who is the better team. That is why the better team has won the last three games after getting down.

Herm has done an excellent job drafting over the last three years and as these guys mature, the Chiefs will be a great team.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Stop with the garbage. Herm didn't develop Pennington. he got put in after Testaverde got hurt in 2002 after Herm had already said ''it's Vinny's team''.

Get out of here with your distorted horseshit revision of Jets history. I'll bet you're Lia Edwards.

Pennington had never started a game and was a second year player when Herm took over the Jets. Who do you think developed him?

He wasn't ready when Herm got there, which is WHY Herm stuck with Vinny for a year or so. But, guess what? Herm is the one that developed Pennington.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 02:30 PM
The Hermaphrodites are coming out of the closet now.

ROFL

I just figured I would inject a little objectivity and intelligence into the conversation. Something that is sorely lacking on this thread.

the Talking Can
11-14-2008, 02:31 PM
Not if Herm sticks around. Chiefs will be in the playoffs next year.

we need a new word for "dumb"....


..oh, wait...True Fan will suffice...

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Pennington had never started a game and was a second year player when Herm took over the Jets. Who do you think developed him?

He wasn't ready when Herm got there, which is WHY Herm stuck with Vinny for a year or so. But, guess what? Herm is the one that developed Pennington.
Developed him into what? a piece of garbage that's injury prone? you're acting like he developed a HOF QB. you're a prototypical Hermaphrodite. delusion knows no bounds.

HolyHandgernade
11-14-2008, 02:40 PM
I'm in the "still evaluating" camp.

I don't think he is a great strategizer, but he is a good motivator, and with a team full of youth, they need more motivation at this point.

Not sure about his fascination with Dick Curl, but I like Gailey and have to give the coaching staff kudos for transforming their offensive philosophy midseason and coming real close to making it work.

The question is would a change really help or hurt the psyche of a young team? If the team feels like they are improving, despite the record, and getting close to accomplishing something, then removing the head coach who is trying to keep that all together could be disastrous.

On the other hand, if you can find a really good head coach and coaching staff who can accelerate that optimism coupled with excellent game day coaching and adjustments, then you might have to make that change.

So, if you're going to change, from what to what?If this team finishes on an upswing despite the youth and injuries, I think Herm lives to fight another year. And I would be OK with that. Of course, I don't live in KC any more, and so my distance from "ground zero" may give me a bit more objectivity and a little less passion about the situation.

-HH

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 02:43 PM
You sure about that? I think it takes 3 years to judge a draft.

That statement is usually made when you evaluate players who have not yet reached their potential. Yes, there are some players who hit a sophomore slump, but most young players progress rather than regress.

So far, the Chiefs have nabbed five quality starters in key positions:
Flowers, Albert, Carr, Barth (undrafted rookie), Cox (UDF)

They have one extremely valuable depth player:
Charles

THey have one player who has enormous upside:
Dorsey

Another player with good upside:
Cottam

A good specialist (still needs to be determined):
Kevin Robinson

And there's still time to see if Franklin, Richardson, Merritt, and Johnston can improve.


As of now, it's a grand slam of a rookie offseason. And it's more likely than not going to get better instead of worse.

beach tribe
11-14-2008, 02:58 PM
Yes. But the clock for his job starts ticking in 2009.

He's proven to be really good at building teams. And there's no doubt we have some really good young players that are getting better and, much as people refuse to acknowledge it, they're getting better because of good coaching.

We start worrying about gameday decisions and execution in 2010. I would love for Herm to give us another really strong offseason and make good personnel decisions that build the foundation for the next head coach to take over and take this team over the top. As of now, Herm hasn't proven to me that he's good enough to coach in 2010. But in 2009, he definitely deserves one more year.

Would you please give me an example of how he has PROVEN to be really good at building teams. He won a couple PO games with Parcell's guys in NY, and left the team in shambles.

I'm so sick of people saying that he's proven he can build a team, and that he has such a good eye for talent, when there is actually ZERO proof of either being true. Where do you people get this shit?

beach tribe
11-14-2008, 03:02 PM
Yes if he keeps the spread offense. No if he wants to go back to R2P2.

Yep, you can thank Chan for all this development you are seeing. Without the spread were dead last in offense. Herm's had three drafts, and the defense which he's supposed to be so good at fixing is a joke.

Herm should be kissing Chan's ass, because he's probably going to be the reason Herm doesn't get fired.

beach tribe
11-14-2008, 03:07 PM
The Titans have one right now.

Anybody who thinks Herm is half the coach that Jeff Fisher is needs their head examined. FTR Fisher built one HELL of a squad that just missed a SB. That team got old, and he purged the roster. He deserved another shot at building another team.

bringbackmarty
11-14-2008, 03:16 PM
herm sux

bringbackmarty
11-14-2008, 03:20 PM
his wife is a cow too

bringbackmarty
11-14-2008, 03:20 PM
fuckin bitch

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 03:22 PM
Would you please give me an example of how he has PROVEN to be really good at building teams. He won a couple PO games with Parcell's guys in NY, and left the team in shambles.

I'm so sick of people saying that he's proven he can build a team, and that he has such a good eye for talent, when there is actually ZERO proof of either being true. Where do you people get this shit?

Like I said, the current Chiefs roster is a pretty good indicator of the kind of team he can build. There is no proof he left the Jets team in shambles. They went to the playoffs next year, and then Mangini tore apart the team because they moved from a 4-3 to a 3-4. I don't think he built a great team there, but it's uneven logic to claim that he left the team in shambles.

There is no greater proof than what he is doing with the Chiefs' current team. It is very difficult for anyone, no matter how much they hate Herm, to deny that the Chiefs have brought in some very good players. And keep in mind that this entire roster was without the luxury of a huge wallet of cash to spend on veteran players.

Yes, this history can change, but based on the team he's built so far in KC with limited resources, he's done a very good job.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 03:24 PM
Developed him into what? a piece of garbage that's injury prone? you're acting like he developed a HOF QB. you're a prototypical Hermaphrodite. delusion knows no bounds.

LOL... that piece of garbage has his team in the playoff hunt..... and has made far more playoff appearances than a guy like Trent Green.... oh, and that was mostly under Herm Edwards. Odd, considering he is a piece of garbage and Herm is so poor.

I mean, QB is the MOST important position, right? How was such a poor coach successful with a piece of garbage QB?

SenselessChiefsFan
11-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Anybody who thinks Herm is half the coach that Jeff Fisher is needs their head examined. FTR Fisher built one HELL of a squad that just missed a SB. That team got old, and he purged the roster. He deserved another shot at building another team.

And yet, he had years to build the bottom of the roster to take over. Herm took over a soft, old, underachieving squad and shouldn't get the chance to build his team?

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 03:32 PM
Yep, you can thank Chan for all this development you are seeing. Without the spread were dead last in offense. Herm's had three drafts, and the defense which he's supposed to be so good at fixing is a joke.

Herm should be kissing Chan's ass, because he's probably going to be the reason Herm doesn't get fired.

Herm is not supposed to be a defensive coach. He is not known to be an X's and O's guy, and head coaches aren't nearly as influential with that as coordinators are. Tony Dungy is supposed to be a defensive mastermind, but his defense in Indy has been inconsistent and questionable. Same for Marvin Lewis in Cincinnati. Or how about Brian Billick in Baltimore, who was supposed to be an offensive mastermind?

Herm has had three drafts and an extremely small wallet of cash to replace a team that Carl Peterson handed to him that consisted of a bunch of 30+ year old veterans.

I don't know why Herm is being discredited for giving Chan power to coach. Bad head coaches demand that their coaches run a certain philosophy, which is why Marinelli failed in Detroit--he forced Donnie Henderson to run a strict Tampa 2. Good coaches let their coaches coach. Think Dungy deserves any credit for the offense in Indy? Billick for the outstanding defense in Baltimore years ago?

Coaching is a lot more than just X's and O's. I know Herm's really bad at X's and O's, which is why it is the duty of the GM to surround him with assistants who are good at it. Instead, Peterson hired his friends, one of which had zero offensive coordinating experience. Seriously, why would you stick a head coach who you know is no good at offense with an offensive coordinator who has never called a game before? It blows my mind how badly Carl Peterson's history of hiring his cigar club buddies has destroyed this franchise.

kysirsoze
11-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Eventually you have to stick with someone. I agree with the people that say next year is the year to decide. He's spent all this time drafting and signing players to fit what he wants to do. We have to give him a chance to do it. A new coach that would once again shift the identity of this team will only delay any progress.

MOhillbilly
11-14-2008, 03:41 PM
undecided.

beach tribe
11-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Herm is not supposed to be a defensive coach. He is not known to be an X's and O's guy, and head coaches aren't nearly as influential with that as coordinators are. Tony Dungy is supposed to be a defensive mastermind, but his defense in Indy has been inconsistent and questionable. Same for Marvin Lewis in Cincinnati. Or how about Brian Billick in Baltimore, who was supposed to be an offensive mastermind?

Herm has had three drafts and an extremely small wallet of cash to replace a team that Carl Peterson handed to him that consisted of a bunch of 30+ year old veterans.

I don't know why Herm is being discredited for giving Chan power to coach. Bad head coaches demand that their coaches run a certain philosophy, which is why Marinelli failed in Detroit--he forced Donnie Henderson to run a strict Tampa 2. Good coaches let their coaches coach. Think Dungy deserves any credit for the offense in Indy? Billick for the outstanding defense in Baltimore years ago?

Coaching is a lot more than just X's and O's. I know Herm's really bad at X's and O's, which is why it is the duty of the GM to surround him with assistants who are good at it. Instead, Peterson hired his friends, one of which had zero offensive coordinating experience. Seriously, why would you stick a head coach who you know is no good at offense with an offensive coordinator who has never called a game before? It blows my mind how badly Carl Peterson's history of hiring his cigar club buddies has destroyed this franchise.

I've said before that I'm giving credit to Herm for letting Chan FINALLY take over. After losing two QBs, and basically looking like complete garbage. Do you think it's any coincidence that our offensive philosophy looked exactly the same with Chan, and Solari. There is a common denominator, and I think he handed the power of scheme over because he was basically left no choice. I give Chan the most credit, because I think he finally convinced Herm to let him do it his way, and it has worked.

Baconeater
11-14-2008, 03:49 PM
Anybody who thinks Herm is half the coach that Jeff Fisher is needs their head examined. FTR Fisher built one HELL of a squad that just missed a SB. That team got old, and he purged the roster. He deserved another shot at building another team.

Thank god someone finally said that, comparing Fisher to Herm is asinine. And he didn't "just miss" the SB, he got there.

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 03:52 PM
I've said before that I'm giving credit to Herm for letting Chan FINALLY take over. After losing two QBs, and basically looking like complete garbage. Do you think it's any coincidence that our offensive philosophy looked exactly the same with Chan, and Solari. There is a common denominator, and I think he handed the power of scheme over because he was basically left no choice. I give Chan the most credit, because I think he finally convinced Herm to let him do it his way, and it has worked.

But Chan has always run a Herm-like offense. In Miami and Pittsburgh and Dallas, he always had 1,000 yard rushers and his QBs always had less than 3,500 yards. This new offensive philosophy is new to Gailey too.

I don't agree that Gailey was ever handcuffed. In my opinion, his biggest handcuffs were the lack of chemistry on the o-line and the long revolving door of QBs. It's hard to pass when your starting QB keeps getting killed, your next QB can't move more than an inch, and your third string QB is completing 10% of his first half passes. We have to keep in mind that fans were ripping Gailey a new asshole when he experimented with the option--like I said, I credit Gailey for at least trying. That indicates to me that Gailey didn't know what he watned from the offense but that he was willing to try.

The R2/P2 offense is pretty similar to what Gailey's run in the past. I don't know if Herm needed to be strongly convinced to move away from it, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Herm had handcuffs on Gailey. I think that both coaches had a huge mess on offense and had no idea how to sort it out. I don't think it has anything to do with Herm being backed into a wall. I think Gailey tried to install an offense that most people thought would never work (like the option), and it ended up working remarkably well.

That's the kind of ingenuity I've been looking for for YEARS under Gun, both when Vermeil and Herm have coached. I have seen absolutely nothing of that sort. If you surround Herm with the right coaches, he will give them the power to run their show. I think the defense has a lot more talent than we realize, but our coordinator is just not doing the job. Funny how gailey is making the most of his limited player talent, while Gun is making the least of his.

ChiTown
11-14-2008, 03:57 PM
Absolutely want Herm back. I mean, shit, someone has to do the laundry at 1 Arrowhead Drive................

Skip Towne
11-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Why are all these n00bs in here defending Herm? Dupes?

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 04:13 PM
Anyone who thinks he should keep his job has a lower IQ than Sperm does.

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 04:18 PM
If we give Herm one more offseason, I guarantee we're playoff-worthy in 2009. As I've said, I believe it will take another coach to take a herm foundation and make them Super Bowl competitive. But I trust Herm to build that foundation. Who knows, maybe he becomes a better game manageir in that time. I've been pleased with his decisions to go for 2 and pass on a clock-milking situation the last 2 weeks. Maybe, like Marty in San Diego and Dungy in Indy, he's starting to trust his offensive coordinator enough that he doesn't say a word.

How cute.

A Herm-aphrodite proclaiming that we are going to be competitive in 2009.

The Herm foundation? Which one is that? The one where our defense keeps getting worse? The one where 40% of our roster gets injured?Don't just tell me this is bad luck either. He had the ****ing same problem with the Jets. Additionally, what kind of ****ing rose colored glasses do you have to get to defend him?

If you think another coach is going to be needed to take this team over the top, why in god's name wouldn't you just fire him this off-season, let the new coach bring his guys in, and move forward?

This running in place mentality is the reason we haven't won a playoff game in 15 years.

Keep wasting time and giving guys who clearly can't cut it one more year to prove themselves. That's the team motto.

Deberg_1990
11-14-2008, 04:25 PM
This running in place mentality is the reason we haven't won a playoff game in 15 years.

Keep wasting time and giving guys who clearly can't cut it one more year to prove themselves. That's the team motto.

I cant wait for the next Gretz column:

Stability in Management sets us apart from the Raiders and Rams

dorseybowe
11-14-2008, 05:24 PM
I cant wait for the next Gretz column:

Stability in Management sets us apart from the Raiders and Rams

Too much stability (King Carl)?

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 05:51 PM
Can you back up that Herm has a history of his roster getting injured? Because the only history he has is killing his QBs and a very questionable claim that he destroyed Curtis Martin. I don't know how that explains why DJ, Hali, McBride, Albert are getting hurt with freak injuries. Huard/Croyle, yes, Herm may have killed them. But to blame the rest on him is questionable at best. Nevermind that outside of QB, Herm's roster the past 2 years has stayed remarkably healthy.

The defense is getting worse and worse. I've mentioned plenty of times that Herm is not an X's and O's guy and he has a coordinator underneath him whose X's and O's are extremely overrated. That's key. Gunther has not built a defense that suits the talent of his players. I don't think that's a reflection of having poor talent. Even when the Chiefs had Jared Allen, the Chiefs' defense was horribly inconsistent. I can guarantee that with a better defensive coordinator who runs a consistently good scheme, actually makes second half adjustments, and practices fundamentals like tackling till the players are blue in the fact, this defense would be markedly better.

Actually, your point about running in place doesn't make any kind of sense. The Chiefs are trying something monumentally different from anything they've ever done before. This is a team that has tried to poo-poo the fans into buying tickets because they fielded a competitive, but not good enough football team. Clark Hunt is sending a clear message that he's willing to tear the team apart and be patient as the team rebuilds. It would have been very easy to go the Jets' approach, and load the team with expensive veterans who can win a few games now, but probably won't ever be good enough to be a Super Bowl team. Or the Al Davis approach, and blame the head coach for ownership failures. The fact that Hunt is willing to take the heat for a lousy team that doesn't sell tickets for the sake of the future of the franchise indicates that we're doing something different.

And I don't know how you can equate Herm with running in place. This is a guy that gutted the entire roster of ineffective veterans and has relentlessly adjusted the roster this season. In years past, it would have taken a year and a half to cut BJ Sams or Novak. Herm didn't think twice. He's brought in a lot of really good young player after the season started, including Mark Bradley and Rocky Boiman.

So my idea of "standing still" is blaming the head coach for all the problems in KC that were largely outside of his control and then forcing in a new coach who will likely not have the stones to finish the rebuild that Herm started and will instead try to pick up as many veterans as possible to win 9 games now, instead of shooting to win 12+ games later.

How cute.

A Herm-aphrodite proclaiming that we are going to be competitive in 2009.

The Herm foundation? Which one is that? The one where our defense keeps getting worse? The one where 40% of our roster gets injured?Don't just tell me this is bad luck either. He had the ****ing same problem with the Jets. Additionally, what kind of ****ing rose colored glasses do you have to get to defend him?

If you think another coach is going to be needed to take this team over the top, why in god's name wouldn't you just fire him this off-season, let the new coach bring his guys in, and move forward?

This running in place mentality is the reason we haven't won a playoff game in 15 years.

Keep wasting time and giving guys who clearly can't cut it one more year to prove themselves. That's the team motto.

L.A. Chieffan
11-14-2008, 05:58 PM
To all those voted YES or still evaluating...kill yourselves.

Guru
11-14-2008, 06:12 PM
Scuse me... No HELL NO option?

chiefzilla1501
11-14-2008, 06:38 PM
And anyone who doesn't see that this team has improved markedly since game 1 is in more denial than a fat girl in a beauty pageant.

Pretty convenient how the blame game works. Everyone wants Gun fired, but still blames the defensive woes on Herm. Everyone wants CP fired, but still don't acknowledge that Peterson gave herm a crappy situation. And everyone is quick to praise Gailey, but of course not even 1% of offensive success can be credited to Herm.

Let's make it simple: this team has improved. It has improved because the Chiefs have committed to youth even if young mistakes lead to losses. It has improved because even a 1-win team is motivated, while other 1-2 win teams play like they've given up. It has improved because the coaches are constantly changing personnel until they get a starting lineup right. It has improved because Herm Edwards has, in spite of all his critics, given Gailey full control over the offense.

It's just amazing to me that when the team improves, the critics find a way to still claim that it's the head coach's fault.

orange
11-14-2008, 06:53 PM
So my idea of "standing still" is blaming the head coach for all the problems in KC that were largely outside of his control and then forcing in a new coach who will likely not have the stones to finish the rebuild that Herm started and will instead try to pick up as many veterans as possible to win 9 games now, instead of shooting to win 12+ games later.

So, Herm gets a pass on his first three years because he couldn't implement "his plan."

But the next guy is going to be held responsible to "finish the rebuild that Herm started." Not the new guy's OWN plan, but Herm's.

Do you want to roll that around in your mind a bit and see just how dumb it sounds? Unless, of course, you're firmly attached to Herm's b...., um, "plans."

Chieftain58
11-14-2008, 07:03 PM
maybe

Ebolapox
11-14-2008, 07:54 PM
I'd be OK with it if the team is still 'with' him. if he 'loses' the team, get him the fuck out of here. if they're still buying in, let him finish the rebuild.

just get some better assistant coaches. upgrade DC, defensive line, linebacker, special teams, and qb coaches.

cdcox
11-14-2008, 07:54 PM
Yes. But the clock for his job starts ticking in 2009.

He's proven to be really good at building teams. And there's no doubt we have some really good young players that are getting better and, much as people refuse to acknowledge it, they're getting better because of good coaching.

We start worrying about gameday decisions and execution in 2010. I would love for Herm to give us another really strong offseason and make good personnel decisions that build the foundation for the next head coach to take over and take this team over the top. As of now, Herm hasn't proven to me that he's good enough to coach in 2010. But in 2009, he definitely deserves one more year.

1. Herm has been a head coach for 8 years. If he hasn't learned to make game day decisions by now, he never will.

2. If Herm goes 8-8 in 2009, he'll probably get a multi-year contract extention and we will be stuck with him another 4 or 5 years.

3. If you bring in a new coach, he will have his own schemes and want to bring in his own players. If you think you want to make a change, it pays to do it sooner. Every year we keep a subpar coach around is a year wasted.

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 08:25 PM
It's just amazing to me that when the team improves, the critics find a way to still claim that it's the head coach's fault.

Has the team improved?

Offensively it has.

Defensively? The run game is improved, but this team still gives up way, way too many yards.

It's also pretty damn hard to regress compared to where you were 5 weeks ago.

You still don't address why in the hell you want Herm around one more year? You think he builds "foundations".

I think his talent evaluation has been sub-par at best. But by all means, let's keep him around one more year to dig a bigger hole for the next guy to dig out of.

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 08:32 PM
Also, wait a fucking minute here.

Where in the fucking hell has Herm proved to be really good at building? Parcells built that Jets team that he took over.

Do you make up stuff as you go along to try to make your argument sound better?

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 08:33 PM
So, Herm gets a pass on his first three years because he couldn't implement "his plan."

But the next guy is going to be held responsible to "finish the rebuild that Herm started." Not the new guy's OWN plan, but Herm's.

Do you want to roll that around in your mind a bit and see just how dumb it sounds? Unless, of course, you're firmly attached to Herm's b...., um, "plans."

This moron doesn't roll anything around in his head except for visions of Herm coaching this team next year.

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 08:37 PM
Oh, and Chiefzilla, here is the article about injuries for the Jets in 2005.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_/ai_n15847891


Quarterbacks Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler were knocked out of the Sept. 25 game against Jacksonville and haven't returned.
Pro Bowl center Kevin Mawae and offensive tackle Jason Fabini had season-ending injuries. Receiver Wayne Chrebet was put on injured reserve after suffering a concussion
Starting tight end Chris Baker and starting linebacker Eric Barton are also on IR. Starting cornerback David Barrett will miss this week's game against the Broncos with an eye injury. Backup running back Derrick Blaylock has missed four games with a fractured right foot.

Yeah, all of this is just a major coincidence.

chiefs1111
11-14-2008, 08:37 PM
there are actually 18 people who have voted yes,im kind of surprised

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 08:40 PM
there are actually 18 people who have voted yes,im kind of surprised

If you don't think Herm is the guy to direct this team for the next 5 years, there is absolutely, positively no reason he should be back next year.

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 08:57 PM
Anyone who thinks he should keep his job has a lower IQ than Sperm does.

How cute.

A Herm-aphrodite proclaiming that we are going to be competitive in 2009.

The Herm foundation? Which one is that? The one where our defense keeps getting worse? The one where 40% of our roster gets injured?Don't just tell me this is bad luck either. He had the ****ing same problem with the Jets. Additionally, what kind of ****ing rose colored glasses do you have to get to defend him?

If you think another coach is going to be needed to take this team over the top, why in god's name wouldn't you just fire him this off-season, let the new coach bring his guys in, and move forward?

This running in place mentality is the reason we haven't won a playoff game in 15 years.

Keep wasting time and giving guys who clearly can't cut it one more year to prove themselves. That's the team motto.

Has the team improved?

Offensively it has.

Defensively? The run game is improved, but this team still gives up way, way too many yards.

It's also pretty damn hard to regress compared to where you were 5 weeks ago.

You still don't address why in the hell you want Herm around one more year? You think he builds "foundations".

I think his talent evaluation has been sub-par at best. But by all means, let's keep him around one more year to dig a bigger hole for the next guy to dig out of.

Also, wait a ****ing minute here.

Where in the ****ing hell has Herm proved to be really good at building? Parcells built that Jets team that he took over.

Do you make up stuff as you go along to try to make your argument sound better?

This moron doesn't roll anything around in his head except for visions of Herm coaching this team next year.

Oh, and Chiefzilla, here is the article about injuries for the Jets in 2005.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_/ai_n15847891



Yeah, all of this is just a major coincidence.

If you don't think Herm is the guy to direct this team for the next 5 years, there is absolutely, positively no reason he should be back next year.

Fight the good fight brother!

ROFL

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 09:59 PM
Fight the good fight brother!

ROFL

You've been there. You know how much of a bag of suck this guy is.

I'm just blown away by anyone who could actually say they think Herm is the right man for this team.

Reerun_KC
11-14-2008, 10:47 PM
Fight the good fight brother!

ROFL

Hes doing a damn good job of it, Has left me speachless...

Hell I have been fighting the Herm sucks for so long, it is refreshing to see someone else bag on him for a bit...

Bill Parcells
11-14-2008, 10:57 PM
You've been there. You know how much of a bag of suck this guy is.

I'm just blown away by anyone who could actually say they think Herm is the right man for this team.

Hes doing a damn good job of it, Has left me speachless...

Hell I have been fighting the Herm sucks for so long, it is refreshing to see someone else bag on him for a bit...

One of the last remnants of the Jet fans Hermaphrodites was a poster named rjensen on the Jets boards. he was bashing Mangini from January 2006 to September 2006 (before his first game as HC) and glorifying Herman Edwards.

He has since dropped off the face of the earth and has not been heard from since 2006.

There are others though.

nyjunc was and still is relentless in his defense of Herm Edwards even to this day.

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28703

I've actually grown tired of bashing Herm. it's so obvious what kind of buffoon of a coach he is now that there's no fun in it.

The Bad Guy
11-14-2008, 10:59 PM
One of the last remnants of the Jet fans Hermaphrodites was a poster named rjensen on the Jets boards. he was bashing Mangini from January 2006 to September 2006 (before his first game as HC) and glorifying Herman Edwards.

He has since dropped off the face of the earth and has not been heard from since 2006.

There are others though.

nyjunc was and still is relentless in his defense of Herm Edwards even to this day.

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28703

I've actually grown tired of bashing Herm. it's so obvious what kind of buffoon of a coach he is now that there's no fun in it.

How could anyone defend him?

The guy has a losing record - by a wide margin.

Deberg_1990
11-14-2008, 11:00 PM
How could anyone defend him?



But his players love playing for him!!!

Boris The Great
11-14-2008, 11:37 PM
Also, wait a ****ing minute here.

Where in the ****ing hell has Herm proved to be really good at building? Parcells built that Jets team that he took over.

Do you make up stuff as you go along to try to make your argument sound better?

If you want to accuse people of making things up, you might want to check your own facts first. Regardless of what you think about this poll question, there is no reason to distort the facts.

The Jets were completely rebuilt while Herm was there. The 2004 squad that went to the playoffs only had a handful of players who were on the team under Parcells. And the Herm-built 2004 Jets had both a better offense and a better defense than the Parcells-built Jets had in 2001 and 2002. And not just a better by a couple spots, they were significantly better.

Plus, by your own logic regarding Parcells, Herm gets credit for the Jets playoff team in 2006 since he largely built that team. So that is 2 playoff appearances in 3 years of a team Herm built. I dont know about really good, but it is pretty good.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-14-2008, 11:43 PM
Jeff Fisher

He went 5-11, 4-12, and 0-5

It's not the same record, but they're equally bad. By season's end, Herm could be close.

Herm's last four years as a HC:

4-12, 9-7, 4-12, 1-8.

That's awesome.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-14-2008, 11:44 PM
To all those voted YES or still evaluating...kill yourselves.

Would you like some sorbet?

Ari Chi3fs
11-14-2008, 11:54 PM
These people deserve serious NUTHOOKS

ArrowheadSoldier82, Bill Lundberg, Brianfo, Buzzsaw, Chief Faithful, chiefzilla1501, chuxtrux, Coltman, D2112, Demonpenz, Fezzic, Garcia Bronco, H5N1, KCCHIEFS27, kysirsoze, Nubian Nut, SensibleChiefsfan, Zouk

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-14-2008, 11:55 PM
These people deserve serious NUTHOOKS

ArrowheadSoldier82, Bill Lundberg, Brianfo, Buzzsaw, Chief Faithful, chiefzilla1501, chuxtrux, Coltman, D2112, Demonpenz, Fezzic, Garcia Bronco, H5N1, KCCHIEFS27, kysirsoze, Nubian Nut, SensibleChiefsfan, Zouk

D2112 and Penz are trolling, and H5N1 most likely is too.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:05 AM
If you want to accuse people of making things up, you might want to check your own facts first. Regardless of what you think about this poll question, there is no reason to distort the facts.

The Jets were completely rebuilt while Herm was there.

What did Herm build with the Jets?

John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Curtis Martin, Wayne Chrebet, Jason Ferguson, Aaron Glenn, Laverneous Coles, Mo Lewis, Kevin Mawae, Marcus Coleman, Chad Pennington, Jason Fabini, Marvin Jones, and Randy Thomas were all there prior to Herm.

That's a significant amount of talent. The QB was in place when Vinny stunk, he had a stud RB, his line had Thomas, Mawae and Fabini to build around.

He drafted Kareem McKenzie, Santana Moss and LaMont Jordan in 2001

He added Bryan Thomas in 2002.

Dwayne Robertson in 2003.

Erik Coleman, Jerricho Cotchery, and Jon Vilma in 2004.

Kerry Rhodes in 2005.

Am I missing something? What exactly did Herm build? He had a QB, RB, WR in place before he got there. He drafted Moss. His D-line was all set with Abraham, Ferguson and Ellis.

He added some players along the way, but that roster was ready-made for him.

Who's distorting facts? Parcells gift-wrapped a team ready for Herm to take over. He has NOT built a team before like he has to do here contrary to what you or Chiefzilla want to post on here.

That 2006 Jets team was a product of scheduling more than anything, but if you want to give that to Herm, go right ahead.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:07 AM
These people deserve serious NUTHOOKS

ArrowheadSoldier82, Bill Lundberg, Brianfo, Buzzsaw, Chief Faithful, chiefzilla1501, chuxtrux, Coltman, D2112, Demonpenz, Fezzic, Garcia Bronco, H5N1, KCCHIEFS27, kysirsoze, Nubian Nut, SensibleChiefsfan, Zouk

Absolutely shocking.

Demon is likely just being a smart ass. D2112 and Garcia are just trolling, likewise with HSN.

Lundberg surprises me.

Chiefzilla and Zouk do not.

The rest are noobs, and are likely duplicate accounts for Zouk and Chiefzilla.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 12:07 AM
Herm's last four years as a HC:

4-12, 9-7, 4-12, 1-8.

That's awesome.

The 4-12 record with the Jets has no business being in this argument. Nevermind that their starting QB was returning from arm surgery, they were using a 40+ year old QB by the end of the season, and were learning a new offense from Mike Heimidinger. But more importantly, different team, different circumstances, different time. When Chad Pennington has been healthy, Herm Edwards made the playoffs with the Jets. That's a pretty telling statistic.

I haven't forgotten the record the past 2 seasons. But I've yet to hear an argument about how even a coach like Bill Bellichick could squeeze any wins out of a team that watched as their old veterans were reaching the age of 35 and up, and botched years worth of drafts. People keep saying "Herm Edwards isn't Jeff Fisher." I don't think he is either. But do you all agree he's a great head coach? I think so. So if a great head coach like Jeff Fisher endured a 9 win, 28 loss stretch, then why is it so impossible to believe that some coaches fall into lousy situations that could contribute to a stretch like Herm Edwards' recent 5-20 skid? If Herm goes 4-8 in his next 12 games, he'll have matched Fisher's record during the rebuild.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-15-2008, 12:14 AM
The 4-12 record with the Jets has no business being in this argument. Nevermind that their starting QB was returning from arm surgery, they were using a 40+ year old QB by the end of the season, and were learning a new offense from Mike Heimidinger. But more importantly, different team, different circumstances, different time. When Chad Pennington has been healthy, Herm Edwards made the playoffs with the Jets. That's a pretty telling statistic.

I haven't forgotten the record the past 2 seasons. But I've yet to hear an argument about how even a coach like Bill Bellichick could squeeze any wins out of a team that watched as their old veterans were reaching the age of 35 and up, and botched years worth of drafts. People keep saying "Herm Edwards isn't Jeff Fisher." I don't think he is either. But do you all agree he's a great head coach? I think so. So if a great head coach like Jeff Fisher endured a 9 win, 28 loss stretch, then why is it so impossible to believe that some coaches fall into lousy situations that could contribute to a stretch like Herm Edwards' recent 5-20 skid? If Herm goes 4-8 in his next 12 games, he'll have matched Fisher's record during the rebuild.

Fisher's rebuild occurred during a time when the cap still mattered in the NFL and Floyd Reese had completely ruined that team.

I think it's time for the post...

Originally Posted by Sperm Edwards http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=400479#post400479)
Let me give this a crack.

2000 NYJ (Al Groh): 9-7

• Very up & down year, but most concede it was due to poor motivation & the players just flat-out disliking Groh. Pushed them too hard in preseason & they ran out of gas after starting 6-1.
• Also was Testaverde’s return from Achilles tendon injury.
• Among the teams they beat were Miami (11-5) twice, Tampa Bay (10-6) and Green Bay (9-7). They split with the Colts (10-6).
• Missed chip-shot FG vs Detroit at home. If the Jets had beaten Baltimore the following week they would have made the playoffs. This ultimately cost them a trip to the playoffs.
• Opponents’ records were combined 145-111 (.566).
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Anderson, Glenn, Lewis, Mawae).
• Other notable players included Chad Pennington, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Jason Ferguson, Curtis Martin, and Wayne Chrebet.

2001 NYJ (Herm Edwards): 10-6

• Edwards has no prior HC experience in the NFL, college, high school, or Pop-Warner. Edwards has no prior OC experience at any of those levels. Edwards has no prior DC experience at any of those levels. Edwards was never the special teams coach at any of those levels. As such, Edwards was never responsible for coming up with a game plan for a single football game prior to his hiring.
• Takes over a team with a veteran 3-4 defense with cover-corners, hires a DC (Ted Cottrell) whose specialty is the 3-4, & inserts a 4-man front, cover-2 base package that was successful in Tampa Bay (never considering that TB had 4-5 defensive pro-bowlers who made it work).
• Though the offense had an immobile pocket passer who missed the ’99 season with a ruptured Achilles tendon, and short WRs (Chrebet, Coles, Moss), shifted the team to a west-coast offense under Paul Hackett (who had just been fired for running the USC program into the ground after three years. Since his removal from USC, they are the best team in the USA. Prior to that he was fired from the OC position in KC).
• After an 8.5 sack rookie season, decided to move huge DE Shaun Ellis to DT, a colossal flop.
• Started out 1-2 including an unwatchable offensive plodding vs. the 6-10 Colts (down by three touchdowns we were still eating 8+ minutes of clock up on one drive running the ball in the 2nd half).
• Teams beat were NE (11-5) in the game that Lewis knocked Bledsoe out, Miami (11-5) twice, and Oakland (10-6).
• Eked out 1-point victories vs. the Bengals (6-10), Colts (6-10), and Panthers (1-15) and a 6-pt win vs. the 3-13 Bills before losing to those same Bills in a win-and-we’re-in game 15.
• Made the playoffs on a 50-yd FG in Oakland in the last game.
• Opponents’ records were combined 131-125 (.511).
• Lost the WC game in Oakland.
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Abraham, Glenn, Martin, Mawae).
• Offense was #26 in yards; #17 in pts
• Defense was #17 in yards; #12 in points.

2002 NYJ: 9-7, Division champions

• In an effort to better enable the team to complete the switch to Edwards’ cover-2 base package, salary-cap purges Aaron Glenn & Marcus Coleman were replaced by Aaron Beasley and Donnie Abraham. To better facilitate Ellis’ move to DT, Edwards brought in DE Steve White which led GM Bradway to reach for a speedy DE in the 1st round (Bryan Thomas) to groom behind White. None of the players Edwards knew and/or requested panned out. Only Donnie Abraham proved to be a serviceable starter for 3 years. Since then, Thomas is still 2nd-string; Ellis went back to DE; Beasley (released), Abraham (retired), and White (released) are no longer with the team.
• Team started out 1-4. Their lone win in the first five games resulted from Chad Morton’s kickoff return TD in overtime (his 2nd of the game) vs. the Bills. The following three games, with no injuries to speak of, the Jets were outscored 102-13.
• During that stretch, RB Curtis Martin had two very bad high ankle sprains and did not miss a game. Edwards would not start LaMont Jordan for even one game, or give Jordan as many as 6 carries in any game.
• Game 5 they blew a lead to KC by getting too conservative too early on offense (an Edwards/Hackett trademark for their entire NYJ tenure).
• Game 7 blew a 21-3 lead to the Cleveland Browns & lost 24-21 for the same reason.
• Damien Robinson brought the shotgun to Giants Stadium in the trunk of his car on Oct 14, 2001 (soon after 9/11).
Ellis was moved back to DE and had a sub-par year since he was still carrying the extra weight required for his move to DT.
• Chad Pennington had a magical season and almost single-handedly brought the Jets back from the dead, throwing 22 TD’s to 6 INT’s and going 8-4 in his regular season starts (including the two blown games when the Jets stopped passing way too early).
• With the Jets in control of their own destiny, lost to the (then) 3-10 Chicago Bears.
• Thanks to an improbable outcome in the last game between Miami/NE, the Jets won a three-way tiebreaker as all three teams ended up 9-7. Jets win the division.
• Beat the 10-6 Colts in impressive fashion 41-0 in the wild card game before getting slaughtered 30-10 by the Raiders in the division playoff game a week later.
• After the game, with his star receiver Laveranues Coles not under contract, Edwards comments to the media that the Jets need to get bigger at WR. Coles departs for Washington after the Jets only tender him at $1.3M.
• >.500 teams beat were Miami (9-7), Denver (9-7), NE (9-7), GB (12-4)
• Pro Bowlers were John Abraham and Kevin Mawae

2003 NYJ: 6-10

• Chad Pennington breaks his left wrist in a pre-season game, where rookie FB BJ Askew was responsible for picking up and missing his assignment on the blitz that got Pennington injured. Inexcusable letting a rookie block for the franchise QB in a meaningless preseason game. Pennington is out until game 7.
• Edwards does not let Testaverde start the last pre-season game to work with the first team offense out of fear that he, too, could get injured.
• Testaverde starts very rusty. The offense is not altered at all to take advantage of Testaverde’s arm strength and minimize his lack of mobility (again). Jets lose the first four games, including an embarrassing display of conservatism vs. the Redskins in Washington to kick off the NFL season.
• After winning two games in a row, and with a 10-pt halftime lead over the Eagles, Edwards follows through with his pre-game announcement that Pennington will relieve Vinny during the game. Pennington comes in, blows the lead, and the Jets lose. They also blow a very winnable game to the 4-12 Giants (who would not win another game after that) the following week.
• Won a surprising victory vs the 12-4 Titans who were clearly not taking us seriously. Only other teams they lost to all season (& post-season) were the Colts & Patriots.
• Prior to a late game against New England, Herm is evidently and suddenly not satisfied with Hackett’s game plan of draw plays. He feels we need to be more vertical in the passing game. We know this because he says as much to beat reporters early enough in the week to allow Belichick/Crennel ample time to prepare. Herm (as usual) follows through with his publicized gameplan & Chad throws 5 interceptions for the first & only time in his career.
• Final game we lose yet another winnable game vs. Miami as Herm has officially completed the exorcism of the Jets demons that had plagued Miami.
• Herm decided that the only RB on the team with breakaway speed (Jordan) will now be relegated to goal-line & short-yardage duty. Never mind that he’s a “RB with power” rather than a “power RB.” This is also announced, so any opponent who sees him come into the game (when it’s not garbage-time) is fully aware that the next play will be a handoff to Jordan (more than half his year’s carries were in 2-3 TE sets). In doing this for the entire season, Jordan still has a higher YPC than the “underrated warrior” RB who has the whole field and all the first-second downs to work with unless it’s garbage time to run out the clock at the end of a half. Though healthy, Jordan finishes the year with 46 carries, only 15 of which came after November 1st & only one carry after December 1st.
• On the year, a staggering 87% of the RB carries (including garbage time) went to Curtis Martin so he could amass 1300 yards. By comparison, Jamal Lewis with over 2000 yards got 81%; Ahman Green with almost 1900 yards at 75%.
• Santana Moss starts the year buried behind Wayne Chrebet and Coles replacement–Curtis Conway. No amount of dropped balls gets Conway out of the starting lineup. Only an injury. Once he was finally given the chance, Moss explodes like we all hoped he would when we traded up to draft him two years earlier. He explodes, for 1100 yards and 10 TDs despite only starting 12 games. Numbers never to be approached again until traded.
• Opponents’ records were combined 135-121 (.527), owing much to playing the 14-2 Patriots twice (otherwise we still only went 6-8 (.428) against opponents with a combined .477 win percentage.
• Missed the playoffs
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (Ellis, Mawae).
• Offense was #23 in yards, #21 in pts
• Defense was #20 in yards, #8 in points. Ted Cottrell is fired in the offseason.

2004 NYJ: 10-6

• Team is given the gift of the easiest schedule to start the season in recent memory and win all five of those games, including the Bengals (in Carson Palmer’s first NFL start); the Chargers (one game removed from the NFL’s worst team and two weeks removed from considering starting rookie Phillip Rivers at QB for the season); the 4-12 Dolphins (with no line, no RBs, and a QB controversy in full swing); the then 0-3 Bills; and the 2-14 49ers. Those teams’ combined record at the time of their games with the Jets was 1-11 (1-16 after the losses to the Jets).
• Despite the outcomes, nearly blew the games against the Bengals, Chargers, Bills, and even let the hapless 49ers get out to a 14-0 lead.
• Week 6 the Jets hold the SB champion Patriots (and owners of the #4 offense in 2004) to only 13 points. Our try-to-keep-it-close-until-the-end offensive scheme nets a paltry 7 points (though the rest of the NFL would average over 16 ppg against the Pats).
• After beating up the pathetic Dolphins, the Jets get embarrassed by the Bills as they give us flashbacks to the Ted Cottrell rush-d’s of the past watching Willis McGahee move the chains on 37 carries. Chad Pennington injures his shoulder in the game.
• With Quincy Carter starting effectively and the OL mauling the vaunted Ravens rush defense, the Jets take commanding control of the game, only to watch Hackett/Edwards needlessly attempt an unnecessary HB option that is intercepted and returned for a TD while the Jets were driving into Ravens territory.
• The same game Edwards is caught on camera having Dick Curl telling him how many timeouts we had & when they were to be used; Pennington coaching Herm to instruct Carter on what to do; the clock-killing debacle where Edwards can’t come up with a single play on his own at the end of regulation that put us in a position to have to choose between a play or a FG even though it wasn’t 4th down; also shots of the Ravens’ booth repeatedly and correctly predicting what play would be called as the 4th quarter wound down. In the post-game press conference, Edwards initially lies about a play being relayed to Carter with adequate time, to shift the blame onto the player, before retracting it upon realizing the replay of the game on NFL network showed the polar opposite.
• After beating the 4-12 Browns, 6-10 Cardinals, and 7-9 Texans, the Jets faced the Steelers and failed to score a touchdown as Jordan is stubbornly kept on the sideline despite Martin’s game-long ineffectiveness. (The average opponent scored 16 points per game against the Steelers; the Jets offense managed 12 total points in two games).
• At 10-4, the Jets needed to win one more game to lock up a playoff spot. They came out totally flat for a 23-7 loss vs. NE (the score doesn’t nearly depict how lopsided it was) before losing to the 7-8 Rams. A Buffalo loss to the Steelers 2nd & 3rd-stringers allows the Jets to advance to the post-season anyway.
• Jets squeak by the Chargers despite almost giving the game back on an unsportsmanlike penalty on what should have been the Chargers’ last play in regulation. Chargers missed an overtime FG and the Jets did not.
• Against Pittsburgh, the Jets failed to score a single offensive touchdown. The defense & special teams keep the Jets in the game and are in a position to win it with a field goal despite just missing one the previous possession. With the clock winding down, the Jets decide to predictably run up the middle twice (and get stuffed both times) before Edwards comes up with his crowning achievement as decision maker. Though at Heinz Field, the worst place to kick a FG in the country, and a weak-legged kicker who just missed from >40 yards, it is decided that a 41-yard FG is to be made into a 43-yard FG by kneeling on the ball (which would have been the longest FG ever made at Heinz Field at the time). Brien misses, Jets go on to lose the game.
• Opponents’ record: 134-122 (.523). Played NE (14-2) twice & Pittsburgh (15-1) & lost all 3 games; the other 13 games, Jets opponents record was 91-117 (.438).
• >.500 teams beat: Chargers (12-4), Bills (9-7), Seattle (9-7); also beat the Chargers in the playoffs.
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (J. Abraham, C. Martin).
• Offense was #12 in yds, #17 in pts
• Defense was #7 in yards, #4 in points.

2005:

• The playoff loss is placed on Brien, who is released after the draft, and Paul Hackett, who “resigned” at the close of the season.
• Strength & conditioning coach John Lott quits b/c Herm won't enforce weight restrictions with fines.
• Jets add Ty Law; lose Kareem MacKenzie, LaMont Jordan, Jason Ferguson, and Anthony Becht; trade Santana Moss for Laveranues Coles.
• To complement new OC Mike Heimerdinger, Edwards hires a few coaches who will be learning on the job just like he did. (Heimerdinger would end up coaching these coaches almost as much as the players for the entire season).
• Chad Pennington, who has a close personal relationship with Edwards, is not placed under any pressure to get his necessary shoulder surgery performed as soon as possible (since the recovery time will be lengthy, and the Jets would be installing a new offense under Mike Heimerdinger). Immediately after the season he goes on vacation for a few weeks before getting his necessary surgery. He is clearly neither fully healed nor game-ready by week 1.
• Division rival New England loses OC Charlie Weis and DC Romeo Crennel
• Jets then start losing players to injury right & left (and Herm has the nerve to act shocked after that softy training camp & then sticking with a system that repeatedly got McNair killed with a GOOD offensive line). Fumbled snaps, players winded, meetings with KC's brass the weekend of the Jets-Chiefs game. The season was over before the injuries. I don't even want to go into detail about last season there was so much wrong with it.

:Nuts:

When you've absorbed this, we can go over the marvelous coaching job he's done with KC, mmm-kay?

Reerun_KC
11-15-2008, 12:17 AM
I love that post Hamas an oldie but goodie!

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 12:21 AM
Oh, and Chiefzilla, here is the article about injuries for the Jets in 2005.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_/ai_n15847891



Yeah, all of this is just a major coincidence.

Yes, yes. I'm sure that it's Herm Edwards' fault that Wayne Chrebet suffered a concussion or that Chris Baker broke his fibula or that a 34-year old center tore a muscle. You're cherry-picking. All coaches have streaks with injuries. Are you going to accuse Bill Bellichick for the fact that he's lost Brady, Adalius Thomas, Lawrence Maroney, Ty Warren, Rodney Harrison, Barrett Ruud, among many others? He must be a horrible coach. Or are you going to mention that the Chiefs have been mostly injury-free for the past 2 seasons, or that Herm's team was mostly injury-free (apart from Pennington) in his other seasons in New York? Of course not. That might make it sound like Herm is actually not intentionally sabotaging this team.

Blaming Herm Edwards for players getting injured... in football? Give me a break. Getting a QB killed is one thing. That I buy. But blaming Herm for injuries to guys like DJ, Hali, McBride and 95% of the other non-QBs just goes to show how much people are willing to go beyond reason to slam a coach.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:26 AM
Yes, yes. I'm sure that it's Herm Edwards' fault that Wayne Chrebet suffered a concussion or that Chris Baker broke his fibula or that a 34-year old center tore a muscle. You're cherry-picking. All coaches have streaks with injuries. Are you going to accuse Bill Bellichick for the fact that he's lost Brady, Adalius Thomas, Lawrence Maroney, Ty Warren, Rodney Harrison, Barrett Ruud, among many others? He must be a horrible coach. Or are you going to mention that the Chiefs have been mostly injury-free for the past 2 seasons, or that Herm's team was mostly injury-free (apart from Pennington) in his other seasons in New York? Of course not. That might make it sound like Herm is actually not intentionally sabotaging this team.

Blaming Herm Edwards for players getting injured... in football? Give me a break. Getting a QB killed is one thing. That I buy. But blaming Herm for injuries to guys like DJ, Hali, McBride and 95% of the other non-QBs just goes to show how much people are willing to go beyond reason to slam a coach.

I don't have to go beyond any reason to slam a coach. The problem with your post is that Bill Belichick actually wins when he loses key players. Herm can't say the same.

He has a losing record as an NFL coach, and has posted a 14 and 27 record as the coach of this team.

Do I think Herm is to blame for all the injuries? Of course not. Do I think it's more than a coincidence that he loses half his starters in 2 of 4 years to injury? Absolutely.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:28 AM
It's ironic that you also want to take seasons out of the argument. You are convinced that this is Herm's first actual year, and you want to eliminate the 4-12 Jets season from discussion as well.

And I'm the one cherry-picking?

Hilarious.

I hope once his ass finally gets canned, that you hit the road with him.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 12:36 AM
Fisher's rebuild occurred during a time when the cap still mattered in the NFL and Floyd Reese had completely ruined that team.

I think it's time for the post...

Herm Edwards' time came when the draft matters... BIG TIME. It astounds me that people can't see what a mess Carl Peterson left him with. He had less than a handful of players over 10 years actually contribute to the Chiefs. THere isn't a team with a worse track record.

Let me put it as clear as I can make it. He left Herm with:
-A 35-year old QB, two pro bowl lineman (Shields, Roaf) who were quickly approaching retirement, a left tackle (Jordan Black) who is currently a backup tackle for a lousy offense, a 34-year old pro bowl fullback, a defense that consisted of lousy free agent pickups like Kendrell Bell, and huge contracts to worthless veterans like Wesley and Woods. The ONLY young players on this team that showed promise were Jared Allen, Brian Waters, Derrick Johnson, Larry Johnson, Kawika Mitchell.

The rest of the 48 players on the roster? The majority of them were rejects. They're not even good enough to make one of 32 team's 53-man rosters. We sunk high draft picks on worthless doofuses like Junior Siavii, Eric Downing, Eddie Freeman, Warfield, Bartee, Wesley, Woods. The majority of the players on the roster Herm inherited are not starting right now and the vast majority of them are good enough to play in the NFL.

So okay, feel free to compare this situation to any team in the NFL. I challenge you to find a coach who had less than 10 players to revolve their entire future on. That includes starters AND backups. I challenge you. You will not find a single team who endured nearly as bad of a rebuild as the Chiefs have. The Titans are the closest thing.

I have never denied that Herm is to blame for many things. But the team he inherited is not one of them. 95% of the blame for roster mismanagement is from Carl Peterson's lousy track record he compiled for 5 years before he brought in Herm Edwards.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 12:37 AM
It's ironic that you also want to take seasons out of the argument. You are convinced that this is Herm's first actual year, and you want to eliminate the 4-12 Jets season from discussion as well.

And I'm the one cherry-picking?

Hilarious.

I hope once his ass finally gets canned, that you hit the road with him.

Herm was 4-12 with the Jets. Not with the Chiefs. His record with a different team under entirely different circumstances is irrelevant.

Reerun_KC
11-15-2008, 12:39 AM
Herm was 4-12 with the Jets. Not with the Chiefs. His record with a different team under entirely different circumstances is irrelevant.

2007 Chiefs final record 4-12

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 12:42 AM
Fucker never should have been a head coach to begin with

cdcox
11-15-2008, 12:45 AM
I think we should honor D2112's request and give Herm back to the Jets.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:46 AM
Herm was 4-12 with the Jets. Not with the Chiefs. His record with a different team under entirely different circumstances is irrelevant.

Wasn't 4-12 with the Chiefs?

Are you mentally retarded?

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:48 AM
I think we should honor D2112's request and give Herm back to the Jets.

But do it after 2009. We want Herm to keep building the "foundation" here before he turns it over to someone else[/chiefzilla]

Reerun_KC
11-15-2008, 12:53 AM
Herm was 4-12 with the Jets. Not with the Chiefs. His record with a different team under entirely different circumstances is irrelevant.

You need to visit this board http://www.chiefscoalition.com They do a lot, and I mean a lot of Herm slobbering over there...

You could share your Herm shrine with them and stand around and massage each others junk, while discussing Herm.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 12:53 AM
Fisher's rebuild occurred during a time when the cap still mattered in the NFL and Floyd Reese had completely ruined that team.

I think it's time for the post...

Okay, but a part you also missed in that lengthy post was how Herm Edwards his entire career has been forced to run offenses/defenses that their GMs want them to run. Terry Bradway is a disciple of Carl Peterson. Isn't it interesting that Bradway forced a 3-4 coach on a 4-3 coach? Isn't it interesting that the original offensive coordinator, Paul Hackett, was a guy Terry Bradway worked with very closely in KC? I don't get why people slam Herm for forcing his cover 2 philosophy on Cottrell. My question is, if Bradway knew Herm was a Tampa 2 coach, WHY THE HELL DO YOU HIRE A COACH WHO RUNS THE 3-4?

Yes, a part of the story is that Herm should speak up. And yes, I know Herm deserves blame for some of the crap in KC. But I can't stress enough that much of the problem in KC as well as in New York was a GM problem. You have two GMs cut from the same exact cloth in Peterson and Bradway who hire within their croney network coaches and coordinators and refuse to look elsewhere. Then they force coordinators onto their coaches. And given that Bradway was cut from the same cloth as Peterson, should it surprise anyone that Bradway was a questionable drafter at best?

A lot of the reason why I support Herm is he's the first coach I've seen in a long time that is willing to defy Carl Peterson. And I think Clark Hunt is listening. Peterson has never rebuilt a team in his life. Herm Edwards made that happen. Now that Herm and Kuharich are leading personnel decisions, our drafts have improved significantly. I just don't think what we are doing now would happen under any coach. Carl would have hired another one of his cronies as head coach, he would have bought him a bunch of veteran free agents, brought us to a 9-7 season, and the fans would have been satisfied with the outcome, even though it would never bring us to a Super Bowl.

Carl Peterson is the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth person who needs to go. And if Terry Bradway is in the door after him, then expect 20 more years of broken policies. Herm deserves some blame. But the more we place our hatred on Herm the more we forget how Carl Peterson's reckless policies forced us into this lousy situation in the first place.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 12:56 AM
Wasn't 4-12 with the Chiefs?

Are you mentally retarded?

The original claim was that Herm was 4-12, 9-7, 4-12, 1-8.

I've seen that happen twice. If you're going to include the 4-12 season with the Jets, why not inconveniently include the 10-6 season the year prior?

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 01:01 AM
Herm was 4-12 with the Jets. Not with the Chiefs. His record with a different team under entirely different circumstances is irrelevant.

...............................Okay dumbass, your opinion no longer matters. You can not be this fucking stupid :doh!:

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 01:03 AM
You need to visit this board http://www.chiefscoalition.com They do a lot, and I mean a lot of Herm slobbering over there...

You could share your Herm shrine with them and stand around and massage each others junk, while discussing Herm.

I'm not a Herm slobberer. I have said about a trillion times that Herm has not proven in any way, shape, or form (yet, if ever) that he deserves the right to coach this team beyond 2009. He has not shown to be a good enough game manager to do that.

But I also believe in fair accountability. Herm has made some mistakes, but the majority of the mistakes were made by Carl Peterson well before Herm came into Kansas City--poor drafting, year after year of signing lousy free agents like Woods, Wesley, Bell, etc... to expensive, hard-to-break contracts, etc.... Forcing your own offensive and defensive philosophy onto a coach without giving the coach the opportunity to hold an open audition. Hell, the hiring of Herm Edwards--why did Peterson not look outside of his inner network of cigar buddies before hiring Herm?

Devoting 100 different threads to firing Herm Edwards and 1 thread to firing Carl Peterson places blame in the wrong direction. I think Peterson has wrecked this team for the last time. And yes, like Solari, I think it was an enormous mistake to hire Gunther Cunningham as a coordinator without giving the head coach any opportunity to interview ANY outside candidates.

I support Herm for 2009 because I know what he inherited, but people here are too blind to see it. Whether Herm was here or not, this team was set for an implosion. I challenge anyone to argue otherwise. He may not be the coach to lead this team to the playoffs, but under his watch, the team is making a lot of good moves and it's showing some significant improvement. We're seeing it in the draft room. With smart personnel moves like picking up Bradley off waivers. With suspending LJ for poor locker room conduct. Like I said, I believe Herm is building a solid foundation for this team, but it's always fun listening to haters make excuses for why Herm deserves zero credit for that.

Herm's job right now is to build a foundation. No doubt he's doing that. I don't think he's a guy to get us big wins in the future. But in terms of the rebuild, he's the right guy and we're one more year away from putting a dagger in the word "rebuild."

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 01:03 AM
Herm was 4-12 with the Jets. Not with the Chiefs. His record with a different team under entirely different circumstances is irrelevant.

The original claim was that Herm was 4-12, 9-7, 4-12, 1-8.

I've seen that happen twice. If you're going to include the 4-12 season with the Jets, why not inconveniently include the 10-6 season the year prior?

ROFL

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 01:05 AM
ROFL

Give me a fucking break. You know what I meant.

greg63
11-15-2008, 01:06 AM
Do YOU want Herm back next year?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm still evaluating him.

Only if I suddenly begin to enjoy watching the Chiefs become NFL's laughing stock for yet another season, and trust me: I don't.

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 01:16 AM
I'm not a Herm slobberer. I have said about a trillion times that Herm has not proven in any way, shape, or form (yet, if ever) that he deserves the right to coach this team beyond 2009. He has not shown to be a good enough game manager to do that.

But I also believe in fair accountability. Herm has made some mistakes, but the majority of the mistakes were made by Carl Peterson well before Herm came into Kansas City--poor drafting, year after year of signing lousy free agents like Woods, Wesley, Bell, etc... to expensive, hard-to-break contracts, etc.... Forcing your own offensive and defensive philosophy onto a coach without giving the coach the opportunity to hold an open audition. Hell, the hiring of Herm Edwards--why did Peterson not look outside of his inner network of cigar buddies before hiring Herm?

Devoting 100 different threads to firing Herm Edwards and 1 thread to firing Carl Peterson places blame in the wrong direction. I think Peterson has wrecked this team for the last time. And yes, like Solari, I think it was an enormous mistake to hire Gunther Cunningham as a coordinator without giving the head coach any opportunity to interview ANY outside candidates.

I support Herm for 2009 because I know what he inherited, but people here are too blind to see it. Whether Herm was here or not, this team was set for an implosion. I challenge anyone to argue otherwise. He may not be the coach to lead this team to the playoffs, but under his watch, the team is making a lot of good moves and it's showing some significant improvement. We're seeing it in the draft room. With smart personnel moves like picking up Bradley off waivers. With suspending LJ for poor locker room conduct. Like I said, I believe Herm is building a solid foundation for this team, but it's always fun listening to haters make excuses for why Herm deserves zero credit for that.

Herm's job right now is to build a foundation. No doubt he's doing that. I don't think he's a guy to get us big wins in the future. But in terms of the rebuild, he's the right guy and we're one more year away from putting a dagger in the word "rebuild."

It's his 3rd year here, can't blame DV forever. Believe it or not this is not the first year of the rebuild.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 01:22 AM
It's his 3rd year here, can't blame DV forever. Believe it or not this is not the first year of the rebuild.

Do I stutter?

I don't blame Dick Vermeil. He was looking out for himself--trying hard to win games. He was trying to win while he was head coach. There's no reason why a coach would look out for the best interest of the coach that replaces him.

It was Carl Peterson's job to look out for the team's long-term interests. He watched the team get older and older and did nothing. He loaded the team with high-priced veterans like Woods and Wesley and Surtain and Bell that were extremely costly to cut. And his croneyism allowed Lynn Stiles (yes, the same incompetent boob who didn't know who Ben Roethlisberger was on draft day) to patrol the draft room for 5 years, leading to the most horrendous 5 years of drafting of any team probably in the history of football.

Yes, we're year 3 of the rebuild. But how do you rebuild a team when all your starters are retiring, your GM left you with less than 10 players (starter and backup) who have any kind of potential to contribute, and poor cap decisions left the Chiefs with less than $5 million of cap room to make any moves?

Feel free to pretend that Carl Peterson had nothing to do with this mess. Feel free to pretend that Carl Peterson had some to do with this mess. But there's a whole ton of evidence that Peterson's actions from 1999-2003 royally ****ed this team over. I don't know how much more black and white I can make that for you.

Boris The Great
11-15-2008, 01:30 AM
John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Curtis Martin, Wayne Chrebet, Jason Ferguson, Aaron Glenn, Laverneous Coles, Mo Lewis, Kevin Mawae, Marcus Coleman, Chad Pennington, Jason Fabini, Marvin Jones, and Randy Thomas were all there prior to Herm.

Yeah, they were all there prior to Herm. And almost half of them were gone by 2004. Glen? Coles? Lewis? Coleman? Jones? Thomas? Not a single one was with the 2004 Jets. And Chrebet was there technically, but was hardly a major contributor by that point.

There were 10 players on the 2000 Jets, the final team Parcells had any say over, that were still playing for Herm in 2004. Two were hardly critical and one, Chrebet, had faded out by then, so that is seven meaningful players. Seven. On a roster of 53.

Those 7 were good players, no doubt. Some better than others. It isnt like the Jason Fabinis and Jason Fergusons of the world have been booking many trips to Hawaii, but they were solid. Unless those 7 were all first-ballot HOFers, though, you are smoking crack if you think those 7 guys somehow outweighed the 46 others that Herm brought in.

L.A. Chieffan
11-15-2008, 01:32 AM
Do I stutter?

I don't blame Dick Vermeil. He was looking out for himself--trying hard to win games. He was trying to win while he was head coach. There's no reason why a coach would look out for the best interest of the coach that replaces him.

It was Carl Peterson's job to look out for the team's long-term interests. He watched the team get older and older and did nothing. He loaded the team with high-priced veterans like Woods and Wesley and Surtain and Bell that were extremely costly to cut. And his croneyism allowed Lynn Stiles (yes, the same incompetent boob who didn't know who Ben Roethlisberger was on draft day) to patrol the draft room for 5 years, leading to the most horrendous 5 years of drafting of any team probably in the history of football.

Yes, we're year 3 of the rebuild. But how do you rebuild a team when all your starters are retiring, your GM left you with less than 10 players (starter and backup) who have any kind of potential to contribute, and poor cap decisions left the Chiefs with less than $5 million of cap room to make any moves?

Feel free to pretend that Carl Peterson had nothing to do with this mess. Feel free to pretend that Carl Peterson had some to do with this mess. But there's a whole ton of evidence that Peterson's actions from 1999-2003 royally ****ed this team over. I don't know how much more black and white I can make that for you.

Nobodys defending Carl Peterson either dumbfuck, so stop playing that card.

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 01:47 AM
Do I stutter?

I don't blame Dick Vermeil. He was looking out for himself--trying hard to win games. He was trying to win while he was head coach. There's no reason why a coach would look out for the best interest of the coach that replaces him.

It was Carl Peterson's job to look out for the team's long-term interests. He watched the team get older and older and did nothing. He loaded the team with high-priced veterans like Woods and Wesley and Surtain and Bell that were extremely costly to cut. And his croneyism allowed Lynn Stiles (yes, the same incompetent boob who didn't know who Ben Roethlisberger was on draft day) to patrol the draft room for 5 years, leading to the most horrendous 5 years of drafting of any team probably in the history of football.

Yes, we're year 3 of the rebuild. But how do you rebuild a team when all your starters are retiring, your GM left you with less than 10 players (starter and backup) who have any kind of potential to contribute, and poor cap decisions left the Chiefs with less than $5 million of cap room to make any moves?

Feel free to pretend that Carl Peterson had nothing to do with this mess. Feel free to pretend that Carl Peterson had some to do with this mess. But there's a whole ton of evidence that Peterson's actions from 1999-2003 royally ****ed this team over. I don't know how much more black and white I can make that for you.

I am drunk, but I thought it was ONE that retired (two if you count Priest, but he was hurt and LJ had made his mark already), could be wrong though.

BTW, NO ONE is saying Carl is not part of this. You have been on here long enough to know that.

orange
11-15-2008, 02:27 AM
Wow. Look at msgs 161 and 162 in tandem. It's amazing. A whole new phenomenon invented right here before our eyes.

#161 Herm deserves none of the blame for losing because he only had 10 guys from the previous regime.

#162 Herm deserves all the credit for winning because he only had 10 guys from the previous regime.

It's not exactly syncronicity - it's EXCUSECRONICITY.

You heard it here first, folks.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-15-2008, 02:28 AM
Nobodys defending Carl Peterson either dumbfuck, so stop playing that card.

Is something the matter, L.A. Chieffan? You're sweating.

TrickyNicky
11-15-2008, 02:35 AM
I'm still evaluating, because if Carl's still here and we don't take a QB first round, then fuck it, Herm can stay on. If Carl leaves then the new GM should clean house. It's all or nothing for me.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 02:50 AM
Nobodys defending Carl Peterson either dumb****, so stop playing that card.

Oh please. Nobody is defending him, but they're conveniently blaming Herm for stuff that Carl Peterson ****ed up in order to improve their argument for why they hate Herm. I have never apologized for Herm's ability to manage games. And those who criticize Herm for the progress of the rebuild are downplaying how crappy a situation Carl left him in--he left Herm with less than 10 solid players out of 53, no cap money to fill in gaps, and a few measley draft picks.

Proof that Herm had less than 10 players from the Vermeil years:
-Of Vermeil's roster, only 7 players remain: Colquitt (non-skill position), DJ, Gonzalez, Brian Waters, LJ, Surtain, and Huard.
>Of those 7 players, only 5 of them are young enough to still be effective.
-There are only 5 players drafted or brought in between 1999-2003 that were cut/traded by Herm and sent to another team and are still contributing today: Sims, Jared Allen, Kawika Mitchell, Tynes, Wiegmann
-41 of 52 draft picks from 1999-2005 are complete busts and almost all of them are so bad, they aren't on any NFL roster right now

So let me again lay the situation down for you. Carl Peterson's mismanagement left Herm Edwards with only 12 players out of 53 who were NFL calibre. Two of those players are special teamers. Two of those guys (Huard and Sims) are hardly quality players. That means that Herm was given 8 players out of 53 that were NFL calibre players. The other 45 players either retired or are so bad right now that no team will take them.

So you have 8 players. You need 45 players to build your roster. So tell me... given that Peterson gave Herm no money to spend and only 14 draft picks (if you get 5 of 14 successful picks, that's considered a good year), why are so many people criticizing Herm for not rebuilding this ship in three years?

That's what I call unfair accountability. It is not Herm's fault this team sunk to where it is. It's not his fault that his team was so stripped of talent in 2007 . It's not his fault that the Chiefs have to rely almost entirely on starters with less than 3 years of experience in 2008.

So there's a lot of criticism for how slow Herm has rebuilt this franchise. So all you genuises out there, perhaps you can tell me how a team strapped for cap space and with less than 10 NFL-calibre players on the roster can rebuild a franchise around 14 picks in the draft.

Dylan
11-15-2008, 04:51 AM
I'm not here to disrespect -- honestly, you're a bunch of great fans -- but 1 win out of 17 loses is unacceptable

The following articles were published in The New York Times 2001 & 2002: It wasn't an easy ride for Herm in NY

Jets Coaches Must Make Next Move
By GEORGE VECSEY
September 24, 2002
The Jets' problems really come down to the coaching.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E6DF1539F937A1575AC0A9649C8B63

PRO FOOTBALL; Edwards Sidesteps The Testaverde Issue
By JUDY BATTISTA
Published: September 27, 2002
On Monday, Edwards offered an unsolicited endorsement of Testaverde, saying that there would not be a change at quarterback. He also said that he would not use Pennington for spot duty, even though Edwards said in the off-season that he would like to try it.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E2D61E39F934A1575AC0A9649C8B63



PRO FOOTBALL; Edwards Points at Ellis and Abraham
By JUDY BATTISTA
Published: October 26, 2001

But that decision did not answer the question that has hovered over the defense all season: Why are Ellis and Abraham looking nothing like they did as rookies, when they combined for 13 sacks?

''If I'm a player on this team and it's first down, I'm playing the run,'' Edwards said. ''Hello! Play the run. You better figure it out. Do I have to tell them that every play on first down? I hope not. Players have to be accountable. You're paid to understand your job. That's what you're paid to do -- to learn to play football. You hone your skills during the week, then you execute on Sunday.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9805E2D91031F935A15753C1A9679C8B63


PRO FOOTBALL; Abraham Gives Edwards and the Struggling Jets Some Feud for Thought
By JUDY BATTISTA
Published: October 29, 2002

When asked if he still believed the Jets had played too conservatively in the second half, he said: ''In the second half, today I can say we just lost the game. The first half, we were winning, 21-6, and the second half we didn't score any points and the defense gave up points. We didn't finish off. We didn't have that killer instinct we needed to win the game.'' John Abraham
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9502E4DB153FF93AA15753C1A9649C8B63

PRO FOOTBALL; With Each Error, Season Slips Away From Jets
By JUDY BATTISTA
Published: September 30, 2002

With each turnover, with each failure to tackle, with another game gone by without a touchdown, the Jets slip closer to the abyss of a lost season. A quarter of the season is finished, and the Jets are 1-3 and in a shambles, with a quarterback controversy looming and a panoply of problems that raise the question of how a team could regress so rapidly after going to the playoffs just nine months ago.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05E2DD1538F933A0575AC0A9649C8B63

milkman
11-15-2008, 04:54 AM
I want to know, zilla, even you you actually believe the drivel you're spewing, how you can justify retaining Herman fucking Edwards for another season if you believe he's not the coach that can get you to a SB.

You don't have one coach build a team for another, as yet to be determined, coach.

You eliminate potential candidates for the job because you force yourself to target coaches with specific philosophies.

milkman
11-15-2008, 04:59 AM
PRO FOOTBALL; Abraham Gives Edwards and the Struggling Jets Some Feud for Thought
By JUDY BATTISTA
Published: October 29, 2002

When asked if he still believed the Jets had played too conservatively in the second half, he said: ''In the second half, today I can say we just lost the game. The first half, we were winning, 21-6, and the second half we didn't score any points and the defense gave up points. We didn't finish off. We didn't have that killer instinct we needed to win the game.'' John Abraham

Same shit, different team.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 08:15 AM
I want to know, zilla, even you you actually believe the drivel you're spewing, how you can justify retaining Herman ****ing Edwards for another season if you believe he's not the coach that can get you to a SB.

You don't have one coach build a team for another, as yet to be determined, coach.

You eliminate potential candidates for the job because you yourself to target coaches with specific philosophies.

That is a very good point. But good coaches know how to get the best out of the players they have. Gailey is not a spread offense coach. Yet, he made that adjustment. I am much more comfortable hiring a coach to mold our talent into something good than hiring a coach who is expected to bring in the right players.

Bill Kuharich was not that great in New Orleans. For some reason, he and herm seem to click very well on personnel issues. Maybe the solution is to put Herm in the front office. But he needs to be involved with the rebuild for at least one more year.

And while he hasn't proven yet to be the right coach for 2010, I don't believe he's been given ample opportunity to prove otherwise. How do you tell a coach that he's fired for his inability to mold a bunch of rookies? In his defense, like Dungy, he's evolving with the times. He's been willing to give up his conservative philosophy for 3 straight games. He's been fine with going for two and throwing in a running, milk the clock situation. Who's to say that with two strong coordinators underneath him that he doesn't entrust them with the keys to the team? One thing you can't deny is that his entire career, he's been surrounded with below average assistants on both sides of the ball.

King_Chief_Fan
11-15-2008, 08:22 AM
That is a very good point. But good coaches know how to get the best out of the players they have. Gailey is not a spread offense coach. Yet, he made that adjustment. I am much more comfortable hiring a coach to mold our talent into something good than hiring a coach who is expected to bring in the right players.

Bill Kuharich was not that great in New Orleans. For some reason, he and herm seem to click very well on personnel issues. Maybe the solution is to put Herm in the front office. But he needs to be involved with the rebuild for at least one more year.

now you are talking in circles and make no sense. Your reasoning is extremely flawed in retaining Herm. It makes no sense to keep him as it seems you are suggesting that his constant losing for the next 2 years will bring in high draft picks that even Herm cannot screw up in picking and then turn the whole lot over to another coach. Meanwhile the first couple of year picks go undeveloped.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 10:09 AM
now you are talking in circles and make no sense. Your reasoning is extremely flawed in retaining Herm. It makes no sense to keep him as it seems you are suggesting that his constant losing for the next 2 years will bring in high draft picks that even Herm cannot screw up in picking and then turn the whole lot over to another coach. Meanwhile the first couple of year picks go undeveloped.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Regardless of who is coach, with a very good offseason, this team is competitive in 2009. Playoff competitive? I don't know. Competitive? Yes.

The Chiefs lost 3 very close games. They'll have several very high draft picks and a buttload of cash to improve their roster. You can't tell me that doesn't lead to a few more wins, regardless of who the coach is.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 10:13 AM
The original claim was that Herm was 4-12, 9-7, 4-12, 1-8.

I've seen that happen twice. If you're going to include the 4-12 season with the Jets, why not inconveniently include the 10-6 season the year prior?

Ok, you really are mentally retarded.

HE WAS NOT THE COACH OF THE NEW YORK JETS IN 2006.

If we are playing that game, Vermeil gets the the Chiefs 2006 record.

So Herm has 5 wins total in 27 games. 5-22 by your logic.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 10:15 AM
That's not what I'm saying at all. Regardless of who is coach, with a very good offseason, this team is competitive in 2009. Playoff competitive? I don't know. Competitive? Yes.

The Chiefs lost 3 very close games. They'll have several very high draft picks and a buttload of cash to improve their roster. You can't tell me that doesn't lead to a few more wins, regardless of who the coach is.

So you think the Chiefs can just bring in anyone to coach this team because they have high draft choices and a lot of money?

How has that translated into wins for the Raiders?

Keep posting. You are the Herm Edwards of this board. You are digging yourself too big of a whole to get out of.

Rausch
11-15-2008, 10:16 AM
Without firing Peterson it won't matter which HermGunMarty we hire next...

Rausch
11-15-2008, 10:17 AM
So you think the Chiefs can just bring in anyone to coach this team because they have high draft choices and a lot of money?

How has that translated into wins for the Raiders?

Keep posting. You are the Herm Edwards of this board. You are digging yourself too big of a whole to get out of.

Look at Dallas. They have more talent than just about anyone and week after week step on their d!cks about as much as we do...

Bill Parcells
11-15-2008, 10:26 AM
Fisher's rebuild occurred during a time when the cap still mattered in the NFL and Floyd Reese had completely ruined that team.

I think it's time for the post...

Originally Posted by Sperm Edwards
Originally Posted by Sperm Edwards
Let me give this a crack.

2000 NYJ (Al Groh): 9-7

• Very up & down year, but most concede it was due to poor motivation & the players just flat-out disliking Groh. Pushed them too hard in preseason & they ran out of gas after starting 6-1.
• Also was Testaverde’s return from Achilles tendon injury.
• Among the teams they beat were Miami (11-5) twice, Tampa Bay (10-6) and Green Bay (9-7). They split with the Colts (10-6).
• Missed chip-shot FG vs Detroit at home. If the Jets had beaten Baltimore the following week they would have made the playoffs. This ultimately cost them a trip to the playoffs.
• Opponents’ records were combined 145-111 (.566).
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Anderson, Glenn, Lewis, Mawae).
• Other notable players included Chad Pennington, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Jason Ferguson, Curtis Martin, and Wayne Chrebet.

2001 NYJ (Herm Edwards): 10-6

• Edwards has no prior HC experience in the NFL, college, high school, or Pop-Warner. Edwards has no prior OC experience at any of those levels. Edwards has no prior DC experience at any of those levels. Edwards was never the special teams coach at any of those levels. As such, Edwards was never responsible for coming up with a game plan for a single football game prior to his hiring.
• Takes over a team with a veteran 3-4 defense with cover-corners, hires a DC (Ted Cottrell) whose specialty is the 3-4, & inserts a 4-man front, cover-2 base package that was successful in Tampa Bay (never considering that TB had 4-5 defensive pro-bowlers who made it work).
• Though the offense had an immobile pocket passer who missed the ’99 season with a ruptured Achilles tendon, and short WRs (Chrebet, Coles, Moss), shifted the team to a west-coast offense under Paul Hackett (who had just been fired for running the USC program into the ground after three years. Since his removal from USC, they are the best team in the USA. Prior to that he was fired from the OC position in KC).
• After an 8.5 sack rookie season, decided to move huge DE Shaun Ellis to DT, a colossal flop.
• Started out 1-2 including an unwatchable offensive plodding vs. the 6-10 Colts (down by three touchdowns we were still eating 8+ minutes of clock up on one drive running the ball in the 2nd half).
• Teams beat were NE (11-5) in the game that Lewis knocked Bledsoe out, Miami (11-5) twice, and Oakland (10-6).
• Eked out 1-point victories vs. the Bengals (6-10), Colts (6-10), and Panthers (1-15) and a 6-pt win vs. the 3-13 Bills before losing to those same Bills in a win-and-we’re-in game 15.
• Made the playoffs on a 50-yd FG in Oakland in the last game.
• Opponents’ records were combined 131-125 (.511).
• Lost the WC game in Oakland.
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Abraham, Glenn, Martin, Mawae).
• Offense was #26 in yards; #17 in pts
• Defense was #17 in yards; #12 in points.

2002 NYJ: 9-7, Division champions

• In an effort to better enable the team to complete the switch to Edwards’ cover-2 base package, salary-cap purges Aaron Glenn & Marcus Coleman were replaced by Aaron Beasley and Donnie Abraham. To better facilitate Ellis’ move to DT, Edwards brought in DE Steve White which led GM Bradway to reach for a speedy DE in the 1st round (Bryan Thomas) to groom behind White. None of the players Edwards knew and/or requested panned out. Only Donnie Abraham proved to be a serviceable starter for 3 years. Since then, Thomas is still 2nd-string; Ellis went back to DE; Beasley (released), Abraham (retired), and White (released) are no longer with the team.
• Team started out 1-4. Their lone win in the first five games resulted from Chad Morton’s kickoff return TD in overtime (his 2nd of the game) vs. the Bills. The following three games, with no injuries to speak of, the Jets were outscored 102-13.
• During that stretch, RB Curtis Martin had two very bad high ankle sprains and did not miss a game. Edwards would not start LaMont Jordan for even one game, or give Jordan as many as 6 carries in any game.
• Game 5 they blew a lead to KC by getting too conservative too early on offense (an Edwards/Hackett trademark for their entire NYJ tenure).
• Game 7 blew a 21-3 lead to the Cleveland Browns & lost 24-21 for the same reason.
• Damien Robinson brought the shotgun to Giants Stadium in the trunk of his car on Oct 14, 2001 (soon after 9/11).
Ellis was moved back to DE and had a sub-par year since he was still carrying the extra weight required for his move to DT.
• Chad Pennington had a magical season and almost single-handedly brought the Jets back from the dead, throwing 22 TD’s to 6 INT’s and going 8-4 in his regular season starts (including the two blown games when the Jets stopped passing way too early).
• With the Jets in control of their own destiny, lost to the (then) 3-10 Chicago Bears.
• Thanks to an improbable outcome in the last game between Miami/NE, the Jets won a three-way tiebreaker as all three teams ended up 9-7. Jets win the division.
• Beat the 10-6 Colts in impressive fashion 41-0 in the wild card game before getting slaughtered 30-10 by the Raiders in the division playoff game a week later.
• After the game, with his star receiver Laveranues Coles not under contract, Edwards comments to the media that the Jets need to get bigger at WR. Coles departs for Washington after the Jets only tender him at $1.3M.
• >.500 teams beat were Miami (9-7), Denver (9-7), NE (9-7), GB (12-4)
• Pro Bowlers were John Abraham and Kevin Mawae

2003 NYJ: 6-10

• Chad Pennington breaks his left wrist in a pre-season game, where rookie FB BJ Askew was responsible for picking up and missing his assignment on the blitz that got Pennington injured. Inexcusable letting a rookie block for the franchise QB in a meaningless preseason game. Pennington is out until game 7.
• Edwards does not let Testaverde start the last pre-season game to work with the first team offense out of fear that he, too, could get injured.
• Testaverde starts very rusty. The offense is not altered at all to take advantage of Testaverde’s arm strength and minimize his lack of mobility (again). Jets lose the first four games, including an embarrassing display of conservatism vs. the Redskins in Washington to kick off the NFL season.
• After winning two games in a row, and with a 10-pt halftime lead over the Eagles, Edwards follows through with his pre-game announcement that Pennington will relieve Vinny during the game. Pennington comes in, blows the lead, and the Jets lose. They also blow a very winnable game to the 4-12 Giants (who would not win another game after that) the following week.
• Won a surprising victory vs the 12-4 Titans who were clearly not taking us seriously. Only other teams they lost to all season (& post-season) were the Colts & Patriots.
• Prior to a late game against New England, Herm is evidently and suddenly not satisfied with Hackett’s game plan of draw plays. He feels we need to be more vertical in the passing game. We know this because he says as much to beat reporters early enough in the week to allow Belichick/Crennel ample time to prepare. Herm (as usual) follows through with his publicized gameplan & Chad throws 5 interceptions for the first & only time in his career.
• Final game we lose yet another winnable game vs. Miami as Herm has officially completed the exorcism of the Jets demons that had plagued Miami.
• Herm decided that the only RB on the team with breakaway speed (Jordan) will now be relegated to goal-line & short-yardage duty. Never mind that he’s a “RB with power” rather than a “power RB.” This is also announced, so any opponent who sees him come into the game (when it’s not garbage-time) is fully aware that the next play will be a handoff to Jordan (more than half his year’s carries were in 2-3 TE sets). In doing this for the entire season, Jordan still has a higher YPC than the “underrated warrior” RB who has the whole field and all the first-second downs to work with unless it’s garbage time to run out the clock at the end of a half. Though healthy, Jordan finishes the year with 46 carries, only 15 of which came after November 1st & only one carry after December 1st.
• On the year, a staggering 87% of the RB carries (including garbage time) went to Curtis Martin so he could amass 1300 yards. By comparison, Jamal Lewis with over 2000 yards got 81%; Ahman Green with almost 1900 yards at 75%.
• Santana Moss starts the year buried behind Wayne Chrebet and Coles replacement–Curtis Conway. No amount of dropped balls gets Conway out of the starting lineup. Only an injury. Once he was finally given the chance, Moss explodes like we all hoped he would when we traded up to draft him two years earlier. He explodes, for 1100 yards and 10 TDs despite only starting 12 games. Numbers never to be approached again until traded.
• Opponents’ records were combined 135-121 (.527), owing much to playing the 14-2 Patriots twice (otherwise we still only went 6-8 (.428) against opponents with a combined .477 win percentage.
• Missed the playoffs
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (Ellis, Mawae).
• Offense was #23 in yards, #21 in pts
• Defense was #20 in yards, #8 in points. Ted Cottrell is fired in the offseason.

2004 NYJ: 10-6

• Team is given the gift of the easiest schedule to start the season in recent memory and win all five of those games, including the Bengals (in Carson Palmer’s first NFL start); the Chargers (one game removed from the NFL’s worst team and two weeks removed from considering starting rookie Phillip Rivers at QB for the season); the 4-12 Dolphins (with no line, no RBs, and a QB controversy in full swing); the then 0-3 Bills; and the 2-14 49ers. Those teams’ combined record at the time of their games with the Jets was 1-11 (1-16 after the losses to the Jets).
• Despite the outcomes, nearly blew the games against the Bengals, Chargers, Bills, and even let the hapless 49ers get out to a 14-0 lead.
• Week 6 the Jets hold the SB champion Patriots (and owners of the #4 offense in 2004) to only 13 points. Our try-to-keep-it-close-until-the-end offensive scheme nets a paltry 7 points (though the rest of the NFL would average over 16 ppg against the Pats).
• After beating up the pathetic Dolphins, the Jets get embarrassed by the Bills as they give us flashbacks to the Ted Cottrell rush-d’s of the past watching Willis McGahee move the chains on 37 carries. Chad Pennington injures his shoulder in the game.
• With Quincy Carter starting effectively and the OL mauling the vaunted Ravens rush defense, the Jets take commanding control of the game, only to watch Hackett/Edwards needlessly attempt an unnecessary HB option that is intercepted and returned for a TD while the Jets were driving into Ravens territory.
• The same game Edwards is caught on camera having Dick Curl telling him how many timeouts we had & when they were to be used; Pennington coaching Herm to instruct Carter on what to do; the clock-killing debacle where Edwards can’t come up with a single play on his own at the end of regulation that put us in a position to have to choose between a play or a FG even though it wasn’t 4th down; also shots of the Ravens’ booth repeatedly and correctly predicting what play would be called as the 4th quarter wound down. In the post-game press conference, Edwards initially lies about a play being relayed to Carter with adequate time, to shift the blame onto the player, before retracting it upon realizing the replay of the game on NFL network showed the polar opposite.
• After beating the 4-12 Browns, 6-10 Cardinals, and 7-9 Texans, the Jets faced the Steelers and failed to score a touchdown as Jordan is stubbornly kept on the sideline despite Martin’s game-long ineffectiveness. (The average opponent scored 16 points per game against the Steelers; the Jets offense managed 12 total points in two games).
• At 10-4, the Jets needed to win one more game to lock up a playoff spot. They came out totally flat for a 23-7 loss vs. NE (the score doesn’t nearly depict how lopsided it was) before losing to the 7-8 Rams. A Buffalo loss to the Steelers 2nd & 3rd-stringers allows the Jets to advance to the post-season anyway.
• Jets squeak by the Chargers despite almost giving the game back on an unsportsmanlike penalty on what should have been the Chargers’ last play in regulation. Chargers missed an overtime FG and the Jets did not.
• Against Pittsburgh, the Jets failed to score a single offensive touchdown. The defense & special teams keep the Jets in the game and are in a position to win it with a field goal despite just missing one the previous possession. With the clock winding down, the Jets decide to predictably run up the middle twice (and get stuffed both times) before Edwards comes up with his crowning achievement as decision maker. Though at Heinz Field, the worst place to kick a FG in the country, and a weak-legged kicker who just missed from >40 yards, it is decided that a 41-yard FG is to be made into a 43-yard FG by kneeling on the ball (which would have been the longest FG ever made at Heinz Field at the time). Brien misses, Jets go on to lose the game.
• Opponents’ record: 134-122 (.523). Played NE (14-2) twice & Pittsburgh (15-1) & lost all 3 games; the other 13 games, Jets opponents record was 91-117 (.438).
• >.500 teams beat: Chargers (12-4), Bills (9-7), Seattle (9-7); also beat the Chargers in the playoffs.
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (J. Abraham, C. Martin).
• Offense was #12 in yds, #17 in pts
• Defense was #7 in yards, #4 in points.

2005:

• The playoff loss is placed on Brien, who is released after the draft, and Paul Hackett, who “resigned” at the close of the season.
• Strength & conditioning coach John Lott quits b/c Herm won't enforce weight restrictions with fines.
• Jets add Ty Law; lose Kareem MacKenzie, LaMont Jordan, Jason Ferguson, and Anthony Becht; trade Santana Moss for Laveranues Coles.
• To complement new OC Mike Heimerdinger, Edwards hires a few coaches who will be learning on the job just like he did. (Heimerdinger would end up coaching these coaches almost as much as the players for the entire season).
• Chad Pennington, who has a close personal relationship with Edwards, is not placed under any pressure to get his necessary shoulder surgery performed as soon as possible (since the recovery time will be lengthy, and the Jets would be installing a new offense under Mike Heimerdinger). Immediately after the season he goes on vacation for a few weeks before getting his necessary surgery. He is clearly neither fully healed nor game-ready by week 1.
• Division rival New England loses OC Charlie Weis and DC Romeo Crennel
• Jets then start losing players to injury right & left (and Herm has the nerve to act shocked after that softy training camp & then sticking with a system that repeatedly got McNair killed with a GOOD offensive line). Fumbled snaps, players winded, meetings with KC's brass the weekend of the Jets-Chiefs game. The season was over before the injuries. I don't even want to go into detail about last season there was so much wrong with it.

:Nuts:

When you've absorbed this, we can go over the marvelous coaching job he's done with KC, mmm-kay?




Bump


ROFL

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 10:36 AM
Ok, you really are mentally retarded.

HE WAS NOT THE COACH OF THE NEW YORK JETS IN 2006.

If we are playing that game, Vermeil gets the the Chiefs 2006 record.

So Herm has 5 wins total in 27 games. 5-22 by your logic.

Can you not see the 4-12 record in the first season (2004) which was with the Jets? Who's the retarded one?

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 10:40 AM
Can you not see the 4-12 record in the first season (2004) which was with the Jets? Who's the retarded one?

I know you dumbshit that he was with the Jets then.

You are the one who wants to remove every negative aspect of Herman Edwards coaching resume.

PinkFloyd
11-15-2008, 10:41 AM
Herm is going to be here at least 3 more years... What saved his job is that the team went young, and Clark will give him that long to at least get a .500 record... Sorry to say, but that's my thought...

As far as Herm being a coach --- he sucks... He believes that any team who scores 14 points a game should come out winning...

:shake:

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 10:47 AM
Umm... you're the one that's proposing that we pin all the blame on the head coach for gaffes made by the GM, not me. Unlike the Raiders, the Chiefs gave Herm Edwards the patience to endure a rebuild. In Oakland, Kiffin had the team moving in the right path--last season, they cleared up cap space b/c Kiffin insisted to Davis that they be conservative in the offseason. This season, Davis stripped full control away from Kiffin and wrecked Kiffin's rebuild. Is that what you want?

The Chiefs need to endure the rebuild. They can't cut it short because a few fans are starting to panic about it. The Chiefs are improving a lot in 2008. They're not winning games, but they're not supposed to. We all knew this would be a 4-12 season. Every one of us. All of us knew this was not a playoff team going into the season. How can it be, when we have glaring holes on the right side of the line, at WR, at LB, at DE, and rallying behind an unknown QB. We all said we loved the direction of the rebuild and would be happy if we saw improvement from our young players.

Somehow, the fans have lost focus of what's important. They forgot what they've originally said. They value wins and losses over improvement.

Sorry, I'm sticking to my guns. The goal of this season is not to win 8 games, but to improve. And everyone is doing a nice little dance over the suggestion that this team has significantly improved throughout the season. They're doing a little dance over the suggestion that this team has made terrific personnel moves through the draft, waiver wire, and undrafted rookie pickups.

But still, the recurring argument is that the team has only won 5 games in the last 2 seasons. Given that we all expected a 4-12 season, when did wins become this important for 2008?


So you think the Chiefs can just bring in anyone to coach this team because they have high draft choices and a lot of money?

How has that translated into wins for the Raiders?

Keep posting. You are the Herm Edwards of this board. You are digging yourself too big of a whole to get out of.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 10:49 AM
I know you dumbshit that he was with the Jets then.

You are the one who wants to remove every negative aspect of Herman Edwards coaching resume.

So then why do you keep pointing to the 2006 4-12 season? I wrote:
4-12, 9-7, 4-12, 1-8

Did you not see that there are two 4-12 seasons in there?

Bill Parcells
11-15-2008, 10:50 AM
Chiefzilla has got to be a Zouk duplicate account. there can't possibly be 2 people in the world that think like that.

milkman
11-15-2008, 10:52 AM
Umm... you're the one that's proposing that we pin all the blame on the head coach for gaffes made by the GM, not me. Unlike the Raiders, the Chiefs gave Herm Edwards the patience to endure a rebuild. In Oakland, Kiffin had the team moving in the right path--last season, they cleared up cap space b/c Kiffin insisted to Davis that they be conservative in the offseason. This season, Davis stripped full control away from Kiffin and wrecked Kiffin's rebuild. Is that what you want?

The Chiefs need to endure the rebuild. They can't cut it short because a few fans are starting to panic about it. The Chiefs are improving a lot in 2008. They're not winning games, but they're not supposed to. We all knew this would be a 4-12 season. Every one of us. All of us knew this was not a playoff team going into the season. How can it be, when we have glaring holes on the right side of the line, at WR, at LB, at DE, and rallying behind an unknown QB. We all said we loved the direction of the rebuild and would be happy if we saw improvement from our young players.

Somehow, the fans have lost focus of what's important. They forgot what they've originally said. They value wins and losses over improvement.

Sorry, I'm sticking to my guns. The goal of this season is not to win 8 games, but to improve. And everyone is doing a nice little dance over the suggestion that this team has significantly improved throughout the season. They're doing a little dance over the suggestion that this team has made terrific personnel moves through the draft, waiver wire, and undrafted rookie pickups.

But still, the recurring argument is that the team has only won 5 games in the last 2 seasons. Given that we all expected a 4-12 season, when did wins become this important for 2008?

Wins and losses became important when the losses could be directly assigned to the coach rather than the youth.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 10:56 AM
Umm... you're the one that's proposing that we pin all the blame on the head coach for gaffes made by the GM, not me. Unlike the Raiders, the Chiefs gave Herm Edwards the patience to endure a rebuild. In Oakland, Kiffin had the team moving in the right path--last season, they cleared up cap space b/c Kiffin insisted to Davis that they be conservative in the offseason. This season, Davis stripped full control away from Kiffin and wrecked Kiffin's rebuild. Is that what you want?

Wins and loses are what matters in the NFL.

You can show signs of improvement and still fucking suck. I'm sorry that you are satisifed with losing as long as someone plays better than the week before.

This team was downright horrible before things to midly better after the Jets, Bucs and Chargers game.

You have said repeatedly that you don't think that Herm is the coach to have past 2009. Yet, you will still defend him to the death. Why in the fuck would you want a coach here for one year when we could get the person who could be here for 5+ years, allow him to bring in the players and coaches he wants, and finish this thing?

It makes absolutely no fucking sense.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 10:57 AM
Chiefzilla has got to be a Zouk duplicate account. there can't possibly be 2 people in the world that think like that.

Do not underestimate the power of stupidity.

This guy honestly might be the dumbest MF I've ever seen on these boards, and that is really saying something.

Brock
11-15-2008, 10:58 AM
I don't really want him around, but you're all going to flip when he gets an extension after the season.

beach tribe
11-15-2008, 11:00 AM
Do not underestimate the power of stupidity.

This guy honestly might be the dumbest MF I've ever seen on these boards, and that is really saying something.

I concur.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 11:01 AM
I don't really want him around, but you're all going to flip when he gets an extension after the season.

Sad as it is, I can see this happening.

I won't flip. I'll just stop watching all together.

milkman
11-15-2008, 11:07 AM
Sad as it is, I can see this happening.

I won't flip. I'll just stop watching all together.

Eh.

I've already suffered through 35 years of coaches, less the three that Levy was here, that I couldn't stand, including the last 2+ with Herman fucking Edwards.

What's another couple of years?

Rausch
11-15-2008, 11:13 AM
Sad as it is, I can see this happening.

I won't flip. I'll just stop watching all together.

I won't stop watching but I will stop paying.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:17 AM
Because you're making the assumption that Herm Edwards had absolutely no role in the kind of players we brought in. That Bill Kuharich can do this alone. Nevermind that Kuharich's history with the Saints' personnel is shaky at best. Kuharich and Herm have worked closely on personnel decisions and they've done a really good job with it. People forget that Herm was more involved with scouting than any NFL head coach and was one of the only coaches who attended a lot of the individual workouts. They had an outstanding draft in 2008 following a strong one in 2007. If Herm/Kuharich tag team for one more draft, I guarantee they have another outstanding draft and they bring in a few solid undrafted free agents. You are assuming that the next head coach will be as good with personnel decisions as Herm has been. So yes, Herm makes me uncomfortable as a gameday coach. But in 2008, his personnel decisions have been spot-on and we are seeing vast improvement from the majority of our young players.

You can call me a dumb motherfucker if you want. I don't care. But I'm not the one that is so blinded by hatred that I see negatives and zero positives in anything that Herm does. Again, I will continue to point out that Herm is a flawed coach, but he's doing a very good job with the rebuild so far. I'm sorry that anyone who has anything remotely positive to say about Herm is considered an apologist and dumb.

But your argument continues to rest on how a team that is loaded with inexperienced rookies and a roster we knew had a million holes in it is supposed to win more games. We all predicted a 4-win season. When did this season become about winning games and not about player development?


Wins and loses are what matters in the NFL.

You can show signs of improvement and still ****ing suck. I'm sorry that you are satisifed with losing as long as someone plays better than the week before.

This team was downright horrible before things to midly better after the Jets, Bucs and Chargers game.

You have said repeatedly that you don't think that Herm is the coach to have past 2009. Yet, you will still defend him to the death. Why in the **** would you want a coach here for one year when we could get the person who could be here for 5+ years, allow him to bring in the players and coaches he wants, and finish this thing?

It makes absolutely no ****ing sense.

Mr. Laz
11-15-2008, 11:22 AM
Yes

ArrowheadSoldier82, Bill Lundberg, Brianfo, Buzzsaw, Chief Faithful, chiefzilla1501, chuxtrux, Coltman, D2112, Demonpenz, Fezzic, Garcia Bronco, go_broncos, H5N1, J Diddy, KCCHIEFS27, kysirsoze, Nubian Nut, SensibleChiefsfan, Zouk

isn't Zouk the same guy always Defending Herm at the same time saying "he doesn't like Herm, but ..."?

i guess he likes him a little bit :hmmm:


pretty good indicator when the rival fans for the chiefs want you to KEEP your current coach.

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 11:23 AM
Because you're making the assumption that Herm Edwards had absolutely no role in the kind of players we brought in. That Bill Kuharich can do this alone. Nevermind that Kuharich's history with the Saints' personnel is shaky at best. Kuharich and Herm have worked closely on personnel decisions and they've done a really good job with it. People forget that Herm was more involved with scouting than any NFL head coach and was one of the only coaches who attended a lot of the individual workouts. They had an outstanding draft in 2008 following a strong one in 2007. If Herm/Kuharich tag team for one more draft, I guarantee they have another outstanding draft and they bring in a few solid undrafted free agents. You are assuming that the next head coach will be as good with personnel decisions as Herm has been. So yes, Herm makes me uncomfortable as a gameday coach. But in 2008, his personnel decisions have been spot-on and we are seeing vast improvement from the majority of our young players.

You can call me a dumb mother****er if you want. I don't care. But I'm not the one that is so blinded by hatred that I see negatives and zero positives in anything that Herm does. Again, I will continue to point out that Herm is a flawed coach, but he's doing a very good job with the rebuild so far. I'm sorry that anyone who has anything remotely positive to say about Herm is considered an apologist and dumb.

But your argument continues to rest on how a team that is loaded with inexperienced rookies and a roster we knew had a million holes in it is supposed to win more games. We all predicted a 4-win season. When did this season become about winning games and not about player development?

IN THE NFL IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT WINNING GAMES. This team was at rock fucking bottom after the Panthers and Titans games. There was nothing they could possibly do to get wore.

1-8 record and he's doing a very good job with the rebuild? I'm putting you on ignore because you are a waste of oxygen, bandwidth, and my time.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:28 AM
Wins and losses became important when the losses could be directly assigned to the coach rather than the youth.

They become important, but we knew going into 2008 and 2009 that youth development was the absolute #1 priority.

I know wins and losses are important, but at this stage in the rebuild, that's far less important than developing our young players.

I can understand your argument about a new coach being allowed to bring in his own kind of players. That's an argument that definitely gave me pause. But the Herm/Kuharich combo have made a slew of really good personnel moves and I don't want to break up a good thing until we have a solid foundation built. I would much rather we build a team of talented players and ask the next head coach to find a way to make it work (a good coach can design an offense/defense that fits the players' talents--case-in-point, Chan Gailey) than give a new head coach who is probably far less qualified with personnel matters the option to bring in players of his own.

I know that's an unpopular opinion. Call me an apologist if you want. But I think Herm/Kuharich are doing an outstanding job with personnel.

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 11:32 AM
I wouldn't say his personnel moves, are anything to bow down to at this point.

Rausch
11-15-2008, 11:34 AM
I know that's an unpopular opinion. Call me an apologist if you want. But I think Herm/Kuharich are doing an outstanding job with personnel.

That's only 1 area of about 20 that make you a good coach.

The fact is, actually COACHING the team on gameday, he sucks. And shouldn't THAT be the main emphasis of our arguments here?...

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:36 AM
I wouldn't say his personnel moves, are anything to bow down to at this point.

Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr, Mark Bradley, Mike Cox, Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Tyler Thigpen, Connor Barth, Jamaal Charles, Turk McBride, Tank Tyler, Glenn Dorsey, Jarrad Page. All players brought in during his short tenure in KC. All brought in through the draft, through the cheap waiver wire, or through undrafted rookies.

Like I said, rip into Herm's gameday coaching all you want. But I can't understand how there are so many people who would rip on the personnel moves this team has made.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:39 AM
That's only 1 area of about 20 that make you a good coach.

The fact is, actually COACHING the team on gameday, he sucks. And shouldn't THAT be the main emphasis of our arguments here?...

Yes, and gameday coaching is also one of 20 areas that make you a good coach.

Coaching also includes motivating players, setting the direction for the team, assisting the front office in good personnel decisions, setting the starting lineup, developing and improving young players, making roster decisions, keeping a strong locker room.

What I am saying is, gameday coaching is something we have to really worry about in 2010. In 2009 and especially 2008, the attributes I just mentioned are the most important. Yes, it's important. When Herm costs us a game or 2 in a season when winning is secondary to player development, that's fine. As long as he's delivering on the team development side. After one strong offseason in 2009, I guarantee this team is in a place where every win becomes very important. That's when Herm starts playing for his job and, as of now, he's got a lot to prove.

beach tribe
11-15-2008, 11:41 AM
Because you're making the assumption that Herm Edwards had absolutely no role in the kind of players we brought in. That Bill Kuharich can do this alone. Nevermind that Kuharich's history with the Saints' personnel is shaky at best. Kuharich and Herm have worked closely on personnel decisions and they've done a really good job with it. People forget that Herm was more involved with scouting than any NFL head coach and was one of the only coaches who attended a lot of the individual workouts. They had an outstanding draft in 2008 following a strong one in 2007. If Herm/Kuharich tag team for one more draft, I guarantee they have another outstanding draft and they bring in a few solid undrafted free agents. You are assuming that the next head coach will be as good with personnel decisions as Herm has been. So yes, Herm makes me uncomfortable as a gameday coach. But in 2008, his personnel decisions have been spot-on and we are seeing vast improvement from the majority of our young players.

You can call me a dumb mother****er if you want. I don't care. But I'm not the one that is so blinded by hatred that I see negatives and zero positives in anything that Herm does. Again, I will continue to point out that Herm is a flawed coach, but he's doing a very good job with the rebuild so far. I'm sorry that anyone who has anything remotely positive to say about Herm is considered an apologist and dumb.

But your argument continues to rest on how a team that is loaded with inexperienced rookies and a roster we knew had a million holes in it is supposed to win more games. We all predicted a 4-win season. When did this season become about winning games and not about player development?

So basically you're saying that, you want Herm to build the team, but don't think he's good enough to get that team to a SB.

You do realize that if we keep Herm around long enough the players we've brought in are eventually going to start winning some games.

And you know what that means? A contract extension for probably another 5 yrs for a coach that no one thinks can get us where we want to go.

So that's just fucking great. We'll finish our rebuild, and piss it away with a game day dipshit.

I give Kuharich the MOST credit for our player aqusitions. It has been said that he is the one that put all the time into the past draft, and Herm even said that Brandon Carr was really the only guy that he told them to get him. The rest were all the scouting departments guys, but you keep drinking that "Herm is a great team builder" Kool-aid.

beach tribe
11-15-2008, 11:43 AM
They become important, but we knew going into 2008 and 2009 that youth development was the absolute #1 priority.

I know wins and losses are important, but at this stage in the rebuild, that's far less important than developing our young players.

I can understand your argument about a new coach being allowed to bring in his own kind of players. That's an argument that definitely gave me pause. But the Herm/Kuharich combo have made a slew of really good personnel moves and I don't want to break up a good thing until we have a solid foundation built. I would much rather we build a team of talented players and ask the next head coach to find a way to make it work (a good coach can design an offense/defense that fits the players' talents--case-in-point, Chan Gailey) than give a new head coach who is probably far less qualified with personnel matters the option to bring in players of his own.

I know that's an unpopular opinion. Call me an apologist if you want. But I think Herm/Kuharich are doing an outstanding job with personnel.


That's the part you don't seem to understand. If he sticks around long enough to get us back to mediocrity..........He will NEVER be gone.

milkman
11-15-2008, 11:45 AM
They become important, but we knew going into 2008 and 2009 that youth development was the absolute #1 priority.

I know wins and losses are important, but at this stage in the rebuild, that's far less important than developing our young players.

I can understand your argument about a new coach being allowed to bring in his own kind of players. That's an argument that definitely gave me pause. But the Herm/Kuharich combo have made a slew of really good personnel moves and I don't want to break up a good thing until we have a solid foundation built. I would much rather we build a team of talented players and ask the next head coach to find a way to make it work (a good coach can design an offense/defense that fits the players' talents--case-in-point, Chan Gailey) than give a new head coach who is probably far less qualified with personnel matters the option to bring in players of his own.

I know that's an unpopular opinion. Call me an apologist if you want. But I think Herm/Kuharich are doing an outstanding job with personnel.

Part of that development is winning games that should have been won.

A new coach coming into 2010 will have to overcome the loser mentality that will be permeated throughout this team as the result of the poor coaching decisions.

You can't underestimate the mental aspect of the game, and the inability to overcome that loser mentality is responsible, in part, for the Detroits, Cinncinatis and Arizonas years of suckage.

You justify keeping Herman fucking Edwards with the argument that you are afraid that the next coach won't have the eye for talent that he does.

Fear of risk.

It's a loser mentality.

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 11:47 AM
Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr, Mark Bradley, Mike Cox, Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Tyler Thigpen, Connor Barth, Jamaal Charles, Turk McBride, Tank Tyler, Glenn Dorsey, Jarrad Page. All players brought in during his short tenure in KC. All brought in through the draft, through the cheap waiver wire, or through undrafted rookies.

Like I said, rip into Herm's gameday coaching all you want. But I can't understand how there are so many people who would rip on the personnel moves this team has made.

Half of that list are unproven thus far. 1st rounders I expect to be good. Page is nothing special. Oh you didn't....Connor Barth, you truly are dumb, he drafted a kicker then cut him, he tried out kickers kept the wrong one, then brought back this guy. Your right, he nailed that, jeez.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Beach tribe, I realize that one of the major hurdles is that you have to assume that the front office will be smart enough to pull the plug on Herm if they don't see Super Bowl potential in 2009. That's a concern of mine too. But I think that's going to be helped by the fact that Peterson's contract expires in 2009, and as he walks out the door, a new GM (as long as it's not Bradway) will make the right decision on Herm.

Like I said, Kuharich was not that good with personnel decisions in New Orleans. Most people believe that Herm and Kuharich have worked very closely. Obviously, Kuharich puts more time into it--that's his job--but it was well documented that Herm was present at a lot of scouting events, a lot moreso than any coach in the NFL. Yes, it's possible that Kuharich can do it on his own, but there's also a good possibility that Herm is helping Kuharich a lot. But there's also the 2nd step of that decision. There's the step of putting the right players on the roster and giving the right players the chance to start, and then coaching them up. It was not Kuharich who made the decision to bench Darling for Bradley, or who decided that Albert would be a LT (remember, Peterson said in an offseason interview that he wanted him playing guard). Kuharich and Herm are working in tandem right now.

In one year, that focus on drafting and personnel become significantly less important. But it is my opinion that we're not there yet. I know you disagree on that.

So basically you're saying that, you want Herm to build the team, but don't think he's good enough to get that team to a SB.

You do realize that if we keep Herm around long enough the players we've brought in are eventually going to start winning some games.

And you know what that means? A contract extension for probably another 5 yrs for a coach that no one thinks can get us where we want to go.

So that's just ****ing great. We'll finish our rebuild, and piss it away with a game day dipshit.

I give Kuharich the MOST credit for our player aqusitions. It has been said that he is the one that put all the time into the past draft, and Herm even said that Brandon Carr was really the only guy that he told them to get him. The rest were all the scouting departments guys, but you keep drinking that "Herm is a great team builder" Kool-aid.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:51 AM
But in detroit, cincinnati, and cleveland, you hear claims that the team is giving up. I realize losing is a curse, but you can't deny that Herm has a team of losers playing their hearts out right now. And I think that can't be emphasized enough. Not all coaches can motivate a team of losers to play.

Like I said, there are things that Herm does well that are great for this stage of the rebuild. That motivation aspect is another dimension that becomes very secondary to winning once this team's foundation is built.

Part of that development is winning games that should have been won.

A new coach coming into 2010 will have to overcome the loser mentality that will be permeated throughout this team as the result of the poor coaching decisions.

You can't underestimate the mental aspect of the game, and the inability to overcome that loser mentality is responsible, in part, for the Detroits, Cinncinatis and Arizonas years of suckage.

You justify keeping Herman ****ing Edwards with the argument that you are afraid that the next coach won't have the eye for talent that he does.

Fear of risk.

It's a loser mentality.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 11:53 AM
Half of that list are unproven thus far. 1st rounders I expect to be good. Page is nothing special. Oh you didn't....Connor Barth, you truly are dumb, he drafted a kicker then cut him, he tried out kickers kept the wrong one, then brought back this guy. Your right, he nailed that, jeez.

Good argument. You put a lot of thought into that one?

smittysbar
11-15-2008, 11:54 AM
Good argument. You put a lot of thought into that one?

Thank you, I'll be here all week :evil:

milkman
11-15-2008, 11:56 AM
But in detroit, cincinnati, and cleveland, you hear claims that the team is giving up. I realize losing is a curse, but you can't deny that Herm has a team of losers playing their hearts out right now. And I think that can't be emphasized enough. Not all coaches can motivate a team of losers to play.

Like I said, there are things that Herm does well that are great for this stage of the rebuild. That motivation aspect is another dimension that becomes very secondary to winning once this team's foundation is built.

There's a difference between playing hard and believeing you can win.

Teams that believe they are going to lose can play hard but will still find a way to lose.

See the Cards over the last 3 or 4 years.

KC Tattoo
11-15-2008, 12:00 PM
no No NO

The Bad Guy
11-15-2008, 12:08 PM
Kuharik and Herm are doing an outstanding job with personnel?

The right side of the offensive line is a complete disgrace.

Our defensive ends are terrible.

We don't have a middle linebacker on this roster.

It took claiming someone off waivers to find a capable #2 receiver.

We cut Connor Barth over Nick Novak.

Our safeties are terribly average players.

But yes, they have done a real bangup job with personnel.

Kill yourself, please.[/hamas]

milkman
11-15-2008, 12:18 PM
Kuharik and Herm are doing an outstanding job with personnel?

The right side of the offensive line is a complete disgrace.

Our defensive ends are terrible.

We don't have a middle linebacker on this roster.

It took claiming someone off waivers to find a capable #2 receiver.

We cut Connor Barth over Nick Novak.

Our safeties are terribly average players.

But yes, they have done a real bangup job with personnel.

Kill yourself, please.[/hamas]

You know how I know you're not Hamas?

Hamas wouldn't say "please".

TEX
11-15-2008, 01:11 PM
Not just NO but HELLLLLLLLLLLL NO! He shouldn't be allowed back for his game day coaching alone.

the Talking Can
11-15-2008, 01:16 PM
You know how I know you're not Hamas?

Hamas wouldn't say "please".

:clap:

patteeu
11-15-2008, 03:53 PM
This last off-season, Herm did what most of ChiefsPlanet wanted the Chiefs to do for 2 or 3 years now. He cashed in most of the aging vets so he could really start a true rebuild. By all accounts, Herm wanted to do this earlier but was blocked by the front office. Assuming the team doesn't quit on him and it continues to show signs of improvement (hopefully with a few wins to go along with them), he deserves one more year to see how his rebuild goes. To show him the door now would be a powerful incentive to any future coach that they should live strictly for today no matter what kind of long term damage is caused by their pursuit of job-saving mediocrity.

TRR
11-15-2008, 04:26 PM
Nobody knows whether Herm can get KC turned around or not. I am of the opinion that Vermeil left him with an aging roster, and a choice to continue to play the "patch-work" game, or blow up the roster. Herm chose to blow the roster up, and is now going to have to live with the nearing consequences...(be it good or bad).

I like the young players KC has. Both Carr and Flowers are going to be solid CB's. I believe Dorsey will be a force sooner rather than later, and that Jamaal Charles could be a star. Some pieces of the puzzle are here right now. Some are obviously still missing.

Everyone knew KC was not going to be competitive this season. There were far too many young players (although necessary to play), a new offensive coordinator, and the injury bug never has let up from training camp. All that being said, I would like to see Herm get another year to improve on the young talent he has allowed to play this season. Most knew that this wasn't going to be a short rebuild. Having one of the oldest rosters in the league, and trading draft picks away for old coaches and vets finally took it's toll.

Put me down firmly in the "Keep Herm Camp" to see if his strategy will pay off.

L.A. Chieffan
11-15-2008, 04:32 PM
This is a thread whether or not Herm is a good HEAD COACH which is what the Chiefs have him employed as currently. If you people want him as a head talent evaluator than that's something else, but nothing, NOTHING has shown that he can coach in the NFL.

lazepoo
11-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Don't Herm's and Carl's contracts expire after next year? What would the point be in bringing in someone else for a year and giving either Herm or Carl a pass for a "transition period" while the other coach makes their changes. If/when we have a mediocre year next year, they'll both be gone. I don't see Clark Hunt being any happier with a 7-9 record or 8-8 than any one of us. The bottom line right now is that the team is playing hard for herm in spite of the fact that there's really nothing to play for besides pride. If Herm can get us a 10-6 + record and keep the team playing hard next year, maybe he deserves an extension. If not, he deserves the position coaching job he'll get when he gets run out of town following another losing season. It doesn't make any sense to fire him for next season, though.

Bill Parcells
11-15-2008, 05:38 PM
This last off-season, Herm did what most of ChiefsPlanet wanted the Chiefs to do for 2 or 3 years now. He cashed in most of the aging vets so he could really start a true rebuild. By all accounts, Herm wanted to do this earlier but was blocked by the front office. Assuming the team doesn't quit on him and it continues to show signs of improvement (hopefully with a few wins to go along with them), he deserves one more year to see how his rebuild goes. To show him the door now would be a powerful incentive to any future coach that they should live strictly for today no matter what kind of long term damage is caused by their pursuit of job-saving mediocrity.

With modern day free agency you can't do an old school traditional rebuild anymore (I think the Cowboys in the late 80's/early 90's were the last to do it, and they still traded for Charles Haley). you have to sign some FA's to supplement the talent because you can't keep everybody for forever like back in the old days.

Sully
11-15-2008, 05:45 PM
Fire him, ASAP.
Here's why.
The week before and after the Denver games.
It was clear that there was a roller coaster effort-wise. The team quit in those other two games, and came out hot for the Denver game. If we are going to say he's a good mtivator, it's clear he isn't great at it.

Other reasons...
His talent evaluation isn't tons better than any online mck draft, and in many ways is worse. I still don't believe he's figured out that keeping a defense off balance helps run clock and make running the ball easier. He's too loyal to "his" guys. Our defense (his supposed specialty) is regressing...this with a defensive starting group that is silly with 1st day draft picks.

morphius
11-15-2008, 05:52 PM
He is a piss poor game day coach, that alone is reason enough for him not to be invited back.

blueballs
11-15-2008, 05:53 PM
If Carl is back next year -then yes
Carl will tade a 3rd rounder for Jack DelRio

JuicesFlowing
11-15-2008, 06:02 PM
Herm is the head coach of a team running the spread offense. Will he do this next year, will Thigpen be "the guy"? We have been competing the past 3 weeks. I think that's what anyone expected. If they draft a QB, the spread offense is only temporary ... I think the whole thing is a mess in regards to philosophy. Herm is not a spread-throw it coach.

Brock
11-15-2008, 06:05 PM
Don't Herm's and Carl's contracts expire after next year? What would the point be in bringing in someone else for a year and giving either Herm or Carl a pass for a "transition period" while the other coach makes their changes.

Thing is, there not going to let Herm get into the last year of his contract. That just doesn't happen much. The players pay attention to the coach's contract.

JuicesFlowing
11-15-2008, 06:15 PM
If the Chiefs don't get blown out the rest of the season, I think Herm will be back. Just a gut feeling.

Fish
11-15-2008, 06:21 PM
The real question is how would Clark vote....

IMO he would not go with the consensus....

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 06:59 PM
The Chiefs entered the season with a hole at FB, WR #2, WR #3, RG, RT, MLB, CB #1, CB #2, RDE, DT, K, KR, QB, as well as having no depth at any position. That's 13 positions of need. That's what happens when over a 7-year span, Carl Peterson only drafts less than TEN PLAYERS who are NFL-calibre players.

I can't believe you don't see how outrageous your expectations are. You're blaming a head coach for not filling 13 holes in one offseason? And while the Chiefs did very well in filling CB #1, CB #2, K, DT, KR, LT, WR #2, FB, you're pointing out the 3 positions they didn't do so well?

The Chiefs had an outstanding offseason. They filled in 8 positions of need. I challenge you to find any team at any point in history that ever did that without a single free agent acquisition. Good luck with that.

But apparently, you seem to believe that personnel evaluation is so easy that when a team has 13 areas of need, that it's easy to fill all of them in one offseason.

This isn't Madden.




Kuharik and Herm are doing an outstanding job with personnel?

The right side of the offensive line is a complete disgrace.

Our defensive ends are terrible.

We don't have a middle linebacker on this roster.

It took claiming someone off waivers to find a capable #2 receiver.

We cut Connor Barth over Nick Novak.

Our safeties are terribly average players.

But yes, they have done a real bangup job with personnel.

Kill yourself, please.[/hamas]

milkman
11-15-2008, 07:02 PM
The real question is how would Clark vote....

IMO he would not go with the consensus....

Of course he probably won't.

He cares about as much as Lamar did, which makes him every bit as much a useless bastard as an owner.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 07:05 PM
Of course he probably won't.

He cares about as much as Lamar did, which makes him every bit as much a useless bastard as an owner.

I don't think that's true. I think that Hunt has taken a lot of power away from Peterson and given more power to Kuharich.

I'm thinking and hoping that he's just playing nice because he knows Peterson is gone in one year. Let's just hope Peterson doesn't fuck it up too much in the next year.

milkman
11-15-2008, 07:13 PM
I don't think that's true. I think that Hunt has taken a lot of power away from Peterson and given more power to Kuharich.

I'm thinking and hoping that he's just playing nice because he knows Peterson is gone in one year. Let's just hope Peterson doesn't **** it up too much in the next year.

I would argue that Carl has shifted some of his responsibilities to Kuharich himself in the preparation for his retirement, as opposed to any pressure from Clark to do so.

orange
11-15-2008, 07:15 PM
The Chiefs entered the season with a hole at FB, WR #2, WR #3, RG, RT, MLB, CB #1, CB #2, RDE, DT, K, KR, QB, as well as having no depth at any position. That's 13 positions of need. That's what happens when over a 7-year span, Carl Peterson only drafts less than TEN PLAYERS who are NFL-calibre players.

I can't believe you don't see how outrageous your expectations are. You're blaming a head coach for not filling 13 holes in one offseason? And while the Chiefs did very well in filling CB #1, CB #2, K, DT, KR, LT, WR #2, FB, you're pointing out the 3 positions they didn't do so well?


Your claim is ridiculous. Herm committed to loading up the team with rookies so of course there are a lot of rookies. The fact that a rookie holds a starting position DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ANY GOOD.

The Chiefs are going to start 11 guys on offense and 11 guys on defense - EVERY GAME - come Hell or high water.

All these new players you laud have proven NOTHING except that they're good enough to go 1-8.

patteeu
11-15-2008, 07:22 PM
With modern day free agency you can't do an old school traditional rebuild anymore (I think the Cowboys in the late 80's/early 90's were the last to do it, and they still traded for Charles Haley). you have to sign some FA's to supplement the talent because you can't keep everybody for forever like back in the old days.

Agreed. And with the cap underage the Chiefs have now, it's hard to understand why they didn't do a little more in free agency unless they plan to use some of it to lock up some of their younger talent (e.g. Derrick Johnson) or cut a high priced headache (e.g. Larry Johnson) before the end of the cap year. I do expect that they will be active in free agency this next offseason to supplement the young guys that they've hit on this season.

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 07:22 PM
Your claim is ridiculous. Herm committed to loading up the team with rookies so of course there are a lot of rookies. The fact that a rookie holds a starting position DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ANY GOOD.

The Chiefs are going to start 11 guys on offense and 11 guys on defense - EVERY GAME - come Hell or high water.

All these new players you laud have proven NOTHING except that they're good enough to go 1-8.

Fine.

Try arguing against Tyler Thigpen, Mark Bradley, Branden Albert, Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr, Mike Cox, Dwayne Bowe as if these guys haven't played really well already.

Turk, Tank, Dorsey, Page have shown more than enough potential.


It's again with your wins and losses argument. Just because the team isn't winning games, doesn't mean this team isn't getting better. The Chiefs had an outstanding personnel season in 2008. They drafted Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Carr, Charles. They brought in Connor Barth and Mike Cox as undrafted free agents. They brought in Mark Bradley through the scrap heap.

It amazes me the dance people will come up with to pretend that the chiefs didn't make very good moves in 2008. I thought that was a given.

patteeu
11-15-2008, 07:23 PM
Thing is, there not going to let Herm get into the last year of his contract. That just doesn't happen much. The players pay attention to the coach's contract.

They could always give Herm a 1 year extension and then let him go at the end of next season (with 1 year left on his revised contract) if he doesn't field a dramatically improved team.

PRIEST
11-15-2008, 07:28 PM
Hell no

alanm
11-15-2008, 07:28 PM
Herm needs to dump some assts. Curl and Gunther for starters. And he needs to stay far, faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from Gailey and the offense. And even then I'm not sure. :shake:

orange
11-15-2008, 07:29 PM
The Chiefs had an outstanding personnel season in 2008. They drafted Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Carr, Charles. They brought in Connor Barth and Mike Cox as undrafted free agents. They brought in Mark Bradley through the scrap heap.


They also made NO move for a new DE - they didn't need to, they had a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder who they knew would get the job done.

And they only picked up Mark Bradley because they were desperate - none of the other WR pickups in three years by Herm except Bowe deserved to see a snap. Tell me again how this affirms Edward's great personnel evaluation.

Herm's put 6(?) first day draft picks into his defense - and it's arguably the worst in Chiefs history. Good Job, Coach!

Bill Parcells
11-15-2008, 08:13 PM
Your claim is ridiculous. Herm committed to loading up the team with rookies so of course there are a lot of rookies. The fact that a rookie holds a starting position DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ANY GOOD.

The Chiefs are going to start 11 guys on offense and 11 guys on defense - EVERY GAME - come Hell or high water.

All these new players you laud have proven NOTHING except that they're good enough to go 1-8.

A Broncos fan frustrated with a Hermaphrodite. Classic! Classic I said!


ROFL

chiefzilla1501
11-15-2008, 08:19 PM
There's only so many moves you can make when you have 13 holes to fill and you're not willing to spend any money. DE and MLB happened to be very low on their priority list. We knew we were going into this season with holes.

Now, as for the defensive talent... I think like offense, we're never going to get in sync until we get a legit MLB. But more importantly, I see a defense that's very poorly coached. I know that's on Herm, but that's largely on Gun, who I think has done a horrendous job of making the scheme fit his players' talents. Gailey's done that on offense, I don't think Gun's done that on defense. The defense may be ranked last, but we've seen a lot of real good things. I think that with a top-flight MLB and RDE, and a coach who can teach these players how to tackle and put them in the right scheme, this defense isn't as far away as we think. That's just an opinion.

They also made NO move for a new DE - they didn't need to, they had a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder who they knew would get the job done.

And they only picked up Mark Bradley because they were desperate - none of the other WR pickups in three years by Herm except Bowe deserved to see a snap. Tell me again how this affirms Edward's great personnel evaluation.

Herm's put 6(?) first day draft picks into his defense - and it's arguably the worst in Chiefs history. Good Job, Coach!

orange
11-15-2008, 08:26 PM
A Broncos fan frustrated with a Hermaphrodite. Classic! Classic I said!


ROFL

I'm also a Chiefs fan and a Jets fan.

See if you can guess why.

Bill Parcells
11-15-2008, 08:38 PM
I'm also a Chiefs fan and a Jets fan.

See if you can guess why.

I'll play again, why?

orange
11-15-2008, 08:43 PM
Three letters - AFL

http://theredzonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/namath_sb_iii1.jpghttp://images.usatoday.com/sports/football/_photos/2005-07-04-inside-stram.jpg

Dylan
11-15-2008, 08:52 PM
I'm also a Chiefs fan and a Jets fan.

See if you can guess why.

Do you work on Wall St? :D

Oh, Ok the Jets are in the AFL.

Bill Parcells
11-15-2008, 09:05 PM
Three letters - AFL

http://theredzonereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/namath_sb_iii1.jpghttp://images.usatoday.com/sports/football/_photos/2005-07-04-inside-stram.jpg

:thumb:

Halfcan
11-15-2008, 11:43 PM
27 voted yes??? Put down the crack pipes folks.

chiefs1111
11-15-2008, 11:53 PM
27 voted yes??? Put down the crack pipes folks.

Im very shocked by this,I knew there would be a few to vote yes but I wasn't expecting anything near 27,lol

PinkFloyd
11-15-2008, 11:58 PM
It doesn't matter if he comes back or not... You could hire Parcells or Cowher, and this team will still suffer... Most of the starters will be sophmores anyway, so it makes no sense to bring in a new coach and make them freshman again... Why flunk them back a year ? New teacher sure isn't going to give them a passing grade to winning...

Face it people -- us here on the ChiefsPlanet will never, ever witness a winning Super Bowl team if they kept changing coaches like most of the people here want...

dorseybowe
11-16-2008, 12:17 AM
I agree, PinkFloyd. :D

Craqhead
11-16-2008, 12:18 AM
N!!! O!!! means NO!!!