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ChiefsCountry
11-17-2008, 12:48 PM
He would rather have a stop gap free agent quarterback than a franchise one. How freaking stupid. :shake:

http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/451

It has to be a pass rusher

I don't care whether Matt Stafford, Peyton Manning or John Elway is available when the Chiefs make their first draft pick next year. Unless one of those guys can get after the quarterback, the Chiefs must pass them up in order to get a pass rusher.

They won't make any significant improvement until they find someone who can get after the quarterback. The Chiefs have six sacks through 10 games. That's right. Sixteen players around the league have more than six. The next worst team is Cincinnati with 11. The league average is 21.

We're all waiting for Tyler Thigpen to turn into a pumpkin but it hasn't happened yet. In a perfect world, the Chiefs would do better for their starting QB next season.

Their world is far from perfect and with their lousy defense it won't get any better. The Chiefs can draft a QB in the second or third round or they can even find a servicable free agent to compete with Thigpen. But as far as their first round pick, if they haven't already earmarked it for a pass rusher, it won't matter who's playing quarterback next season. 2009 will bring more of the same.

Tyler Thigpen isn't perfect but he's proving to be a servicable NFL quarterback. The Chiefs might never win a Super Bowl with him, but at the rate they're going defensively, it doesn't matter whether it's Thigpen or someone else at QB. Their defense has been an easy mark for too many opposing quarterbacks this season.

Sure, the Chiefs need another quarterback. They can find one in another round or perhaps through free agency

Mecca
11-17-2008, 12:50 PM
Teicher is one of those guys who doesn't think having a high draft spot matters either...

The Chiefs have really conditioned a good number of people into thinking the way to be a great team is to be the Chiefs of the 90s.

Reerun_KC
11-17-2008, 12:50 PM
Typical thought process that has doomed KC for the last 20 years under Carl and his minions...

Reerun_KC
11-17-2008, 12:51 PM
Teicher is one of those guys who doesn't think having a high draft spot matters either...

The Chiefs have really conditioned a good number of people into thinking the way to be a great team is to be the Chiefs of the 90s.

Carl has many people in KC ie: media, fans and writers alike all eating out of the palm of his hand... KC is like a bunch of lemmings lining up to jump in to a volcano, just because Carl says its the right thing to do...

Brock
11-17-2008, 12:53 PM
Irrelevant, we're not getting Stafford.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 12:54 PM
Aslong as the Chiefs stay at 1 win anything is possible, who thought the Bengals would play with the Eagles?

If the Chiefs win another game then there's a problem.

Brock
11-17-2008, 12:57 PM
Aslong as the Chiefs stay at 1 win anything is possible, who thought the Bengals would play with the Eagles?

If the Chiefs win another game then there's a problem.

Well, they're probably going to.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 12:59 PM
If the Chiefs win another game then there's a problem.

Ill go on record right now and say the Chiefs beat Cinci on Dec 28th. Effectively screwing themselves.

DaneMcCloud
11-17-2008, 01:00 PM
The Chiefs won't win another game.

They might get close in Cincinnati but if so, I fully expect them to pull Thigpen in favor of Gray or even Martin, who's currently on the practice squad.

The Bengals don't need a QB but they do need defense. I can't see the Chiefs being so stupid as to win at Cincinnati, effectively screwing themselves in the draft.

They're dumb but not that dumb.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:00 PM
Ill go on record right now and say the Chiefs beat Cinci on Dec 28th. Effectively screwing themselves.

I dunno, Cincy beat the Jags and played with the Eagles yesterday, they seem to be playing ok now.

Brock
11-17-2008, 01:02 PM
They might beat Oakland, they might even beat Denver.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:03 PM
Oakland is possible, Denver no way, this team can not win in Denver.

TrickyNicky
11-17-2008, 01:04 PM
We need a lot of things in the draft, we'll probably end up with at least 1 kicker, a running back, and a tight end.

Brock
11-17-2008, 01:04 PM
Oakland is possible, Denver no way, this team can not win in Denver.

Yeah, whatever. They're going to go ahead and play the game anyway.

MIAdragon
11-17-2008, 01:06 PM
Ill go on record right now and say the Chiefs beat Cinci on Dec 28th. Effectively screwing themselves.

no way no how, Cinci will beat us by atleast 2 scores.

StcChief
11-17-2008, 01:13 PM
Irrelevant, we're not getting Stafford.exactly.
I don't see Detroit Lions going on a big Win streak to ace us out....

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:15 PM
Well, if a guy like Peyton Manning or Elway was available and the Chiefs had the top pick in the draft, I'd disagree with Teicher. But under the currently foreseeable conditions, I think he's absolutely right. The biggest need on this team is a pass rush. They should acquire a QB too, but it doesn't need to be a first round draft pick, especially if there's an attractive pass rushing DE available when the Chiefs go on the clock.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:16 PM
Pat-striving to bring back the Marty years.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 01:20 PM
Well, if a guy like Peyton Manning or Elway was available

You realize those are once a decade type of players? You realize a top ten QB can be worthy and not have to be an all-world Elway or Manning types?

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:21 PM
You realize those are once a decade type of players? You realize a top ten QB can be worthy and not have to be an all-world Elway or Manning types?

Lets discuss how many people didn't want Matt Ryan and said there were no franchise QB's.....including the Chiefs organization.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:23 PM
Pat-striving to bring back the Marty years.

We could do worse, but that's not it at all.

The way I see it, the Chiefs can either lock themselves into a risky, several-year experiment with a single, high priced, top of the draft QB prospect or they can try to find their QBoTF by bringing in a series of lower cost prospects from the draft and free agency until they strike gold while at the same time addressing the most glaring needs of their football team.

Brock
11-17-2008, 01:24 PM
Lets discuss how many people didn't want Matt Ryan and said there were no franchise QB's.....including the Chiefs organization.

What any team says before the draft is meaningless.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:24 PM
You realize those are once a decade type of players? You realize a top ten QB can be worthy and not have to be an all-world Elway or Manning types?

Of course I do. That's why I couldn't agree completely with Teicher's hyperbolic statement.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 01:25 PM
or they can try to find their QBoTF by bringing in a series of lower cost prospects from the draft and free agency until they strike gold while at the same time addressing the most glaring needs of their football team.


Didnt we already go this route the past 20 years? How did that work out for us?

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:25 PM
We could do worse, but that's not it at all.

The way I see it, the Chiefs can either lock themselves into a risky, several-year experiment with a single, high priced, top of the draft QB prospect or they can try to find their QBoTF by bringing in a series of lower cost prospects from the draft and free agency until they strike gold while at the same time addressing the most glaring needs of their football team.

Every single pick is risky..I can give you a bust at every single position you don't not draft a dude because of position.

Your philosophy on finding a QB is akin to thinking you're going to win the lottery if you spend more money on it than the guy who buys 1 ticket.

Spicy McHaggis
11-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Sure, the Chiefs need another quarterback. They can find one in another round or perhaps through free agency

With guys like JP Losman and Rex Grossman available next year in FA it would be stupid not to do this!

Sure-Oz
11-17-2008, 01:29 PM
Can the lions beat anyone?? good lord they almost had Carolina

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 01:30 PM
Can the lions beat anyone??

Well they do have a former top 10 QB pick.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:31 PM
Lets discuss how many people didn't want Matt Ryan and said there were no franchise QB's.....including the Chiefs organization.

About the same number who didn't want JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Alex Smith?

It's not a matter of whether or not a franchise QB turned out to have been available in hindsight, it's a matter of the risk involved in such a huge investment.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:33 PM
About the same number who didn't want JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Alex Smith?

It's not a matter of whether or not a franchise QB turned out to have been available in hindsight, it's a matter of the risk involved in such a huge investment.

Yea and some people will never take that risk.....if you're to chickenshit to take a risk to be great, get out of the game.

Just being good enough isn't what it's about.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:34 PM
Every single pick is risky..I can give you a bust at every single position you don't not draft a dude because of position.

Your philosophy on finding a QB is akin to thinking you're going to win the lottery if you spend more money on it than the guy who buys 1 ticket.

:spock:

Uh, your chances of winning the lottery DO IMPROVE if you spend more money than the guy who buys 1 ticket.

I take it you're the guy who thinks he's going to win the lottery if he plays his one lucky number. :shrug:

Hoover
11-17-2008, 01:34 PM
Here's the deal. I know our pass rush sucks ass, but how many games would we win this year with all world Jared Allen on this team? Not that many. So while I'm all for adding a top notch DE, don't try and tell me that position warrants more consideration than a franchise QB.

Now I think the top QB will be off the board so we will probably add a defensive player, but c'mon lets get real, Jared Allen on this team gets us to .500 ball at best.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:35 PM
Uh, your chances of winning the lottery DO IMPROVE if you spend more money than the guy who buys 1 ticket. :spock:

You know exactly what I mean.....

Hey really if you are totally against drafting a QB high be my guest, just know that at best unless you get extremely lucky, historically lucky, you are building your team to be a perennial playoff loser.

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 01:35 PM
Pat-striving to bring back the Marty years.

Marty found a QB that would have taken us to the SB. Gannon.

If he only would have been smart enough to play him.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:36 PM
Here's the deal. I know our pass rush sucks ass, but how many games would we win this year with all world Jared Allen on this team? Not that many. So while I'm all for adding a top notch DE, don't try and tell me that position warrants more consideration than a franchise QB.

Now I think the top QB will be off the board so we will probably add a defensive player, but c'mon lets get real, Jared Allen on this team gets us to .500 ball at best.

I actually think we've had several games that could have gone our way if we'd have had a Jared Allen in addition to the guys we have today (including those who were drafted with the proceeds of his trade).

ChiefsCountry
11-17-2008, 01:37 PM
For as great as Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith were - Elway, Aikman, Kelly and Marino owned them. That should tell you something.

Goapics1
11-17-2008, 01:37 PM
If he only would have been smart enough to play him.

ROFL

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:38 PM
For as great as Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith were - Elway, Aikman, Kelly and Marino owned them. That should tell you something.

John Elway repeatedly beat the Chiefs with lesser teams around him...

Also why would anyone strive to be the Chiefs of the 90s, it's not like we were the Cowboys or the Niners or hell even the Bills.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 01:41 PM
Yea and some people will never take that risk.....if you're to chickenshit to take a risk to be great, get out of the game.

Just being good enough isn't what it's about.

Exactly. Heck, the Titans looked to have bombed on Young, but they still realized it all starts with the QB.

Oh btw, look how much Young busting set back that franchise for years!!!! :)

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Exactly. Heck, the Titans looked to have bombed on Young, but they still realized it all starts with the QB.

Oh btw, look how much Young busting set back that franchise for years!!!! :)

The Titans right now really are the 90s Chiefs, they should be grateful Brady is injured or they'd be the Chiefs and lose in the playoffs.....I still think they'll lose even if it takes until the Superbowl.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:46 PM
John Elway repeatedly beat the Chiefs with lesser teams around him...

Also why would anyone strive to be the Chiefs of the 90s, it's not like we were the Cowboys or the Niners or hell even the Bills.

What was Elway's lifetime record against the Chiefs?

patteeu
11-17-2008, 01:47 PM
Exactly. Heck, the Titans looked to have bombed on Young, but they still realized it all starts with the QB.

Oh btw, look how much Young busting set back that franchise for years!!!! :)

You mean because they were able to find a QB in free agency to help them recover from the setback? How is that an argument against Teicher's approach?

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 01:48 PM
You guys can argue this until your blue in the face.

Stafford won't be available, if NFL scouts think as highly as some of you do.

So, knowing that, Teicher is absolutely right.

If this defense had any semblance of a pass rush, they'd be sitting no worse than 3-7, IMO, and could possibly be in BETTER shape.

The last four weeks, the offense hasn't been the problem.

I'm NOT saying that Thigpen is the answer - BUT, it would be retarded to reach for a QB that doesn't grade out that high when we have holes to fill all over the field.

Risk isn't even part of the equation at this point, (seeing as how Stafford will likely be gone) so I'm not sure why you two keep harping on it.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:48 PM
What was Elway's lifetime record against the Chiefs?

Who went to and won Superbowls...

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:49 PM
You guys can argue this until your blue in the face.

Stafford won't be available, if NFL scouts think as highly as some of you do.

So, knowing that, Teicher is absolutely right.

If this defense had any semblance of a pass rush, they'd be sitting no worse than 3-7, IMO, and could possibly be in BETTER shape.

The last four weeks, the offense hasn't been the problem.

I'm NOT saying that Thigpen is the answer - BUT, it would be retarded to reach for a QB that doesn't grade out that high when we have holes to fill all over the field.

Risk isn't even part of the equation at this point, (seeing as how Stafford will likely be gone) so I'm not sure why you two keep harping on it.

The premise of this article is that even if the Chiefs have the 1st pick they should be taking a pass rusher, it isn't "well see we will have no shot at Stafford so we need to go with a DE"

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 01:50 PM
An interesting stat would be to know what the percentage is of first round QB's that actually:

1) Win a playoff game.
2) Win a playoff game with the team they were drafted.
3) Win a SB.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 01:52 PM
You mean because they were able to find a QB in free agency to help them recover from the setback? How is that an argument against Teicher's approach?

No, i was just trying to say that the Titans when they started their rebuild started at QB like most teams do.

Obviously, you should also have a reliable backup QB as well.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:53 PM
No, i was just trying to say that the Titans when they started their rebuild started at QB like most teams do.

Obviously, you should also have a reliable backup QB as well.

Jeff Fisher who everyone around here loves has used 2 top 5 picks on QB's...

Brock
11-17-2008, 01:54 PM
Jeff Fisher who everyone around here loves has used 2 top 5 picks on QB's...

One of them he was opposed to.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 01:56 PM
The premise of this article is that even if the Chiefs have the 1st pick they should be taking a pass rusher, it isn't "well see we will have no shot at Stafford so we need to go with a DE"

And even then, he's still right.

It doesn't matter who the QB is when you have to score 30+ a game to win.

Hypothetically, had we drafted Matt Ryan, and he performed at the level he has with Atlanta, we'd still be sitting at 1 or 2 wins.

I don't care how great your offense is, if you HAVE to score 30+ to win each week, you'll never get anywhere.

Please, do us all a favor and quit acting like Stafford will be the only good QB to come from the 2009 class, or that he'll be the last good one for the next 5 years.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 01:58 PM
And if we had Matt Ryan we'd be a hell of alot closer even with 1 or 2 wins than we are today...

It's more important to have the QB than the DE, ideally you have them both but QB is the #1 position.

The Chiefs had 2 dominant pass rushers and didn't win shit. Putting a pass rusher on the Chiefs makes them better right now but it doesn't address having what it takes to win a championship.

Thig Lyfe
11-17-2008, 02:02 PM
Thigpen IS the franchise quarterback.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 02:02 PM
Thigpen IS the franchise quarterback.

I think you're high....

bobbything
11-17-2008, 02:02 PM
Didnt we already go this route the past 20 years? How did that work out for us?
Exactly what I was going to say.

It's just more of the same from Teicher. Still stroking Carl's ego and spitting out the verbal diarrhea that is the "Chiefs' philosophy" of the last 20 years.

Since 2001 we've taken Eric Downing, Ryan Simms, Junior Siavii, Tamba Hali, and Glenn Dorsey. That's 5 of the last 8 picks on the defensive line.

Just keep plugging way says Teicher. It's bound to work out at some point.

Sure-Oz
11-17-2008, 02:03 PM
Thigpen IS the franchise quarterback.

HA....

That said we need to bring in another QB period...

A handful of games doesn't mean shit. I am glad we have thiggy though, gives us some hope

Mecca
11-17-2008, 02:04 PM
Exactly what I was going to say.

It's just more of the same from Teicher. Still stroking Carl's ego and spitting out the verbal diarrhea that is the "Chiefs' philosophy" of the last 20 years.

Since 2001 we've taken Eric Downing, Ryan Simms, Junior Siavii, Tamba Hali, and Glenn Dorsey. That's 5 of the last 8 picks on the defensive line.

Just keep plugging way says Teicher. It's bound to work out at some point.

We have a good portion of the fan base that wants to rebuild the 90s team that didn't win anything, how's that make any sense?

Thig Lyfe
11-17-2008, 02:04 PM
THIGPEN = TOM BRADY + BRETT FAVRE + RICH GANNON

BigRock
11-17-2008, 02:05 PM
They might get close in Cincinnati but if so, I fully expect them to pull Thigpen in favor of Gray or even Martin, who's currently on the practice squad.

I can't see the Chiefs being so stupid as to win at Cincinnati, effectively screwing themselves in the draft.

They're dumb but not that dumb.

We went through all this a year ago. That's not going to happen. And if it did, especially in such an obvious manner, I could easily see Goodell stepping in to flip-flop KC and Cinci's picks to send a message about tanking games.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 02:06 PM
Tyler Thigpen strokes this fanbases irrational love affair with Rich Gannon, that's what all this is about.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 02:06 PM
Thigpen IS the franchise quarterback.

Perhaps, but it would be foolish to go into the offseason thinking that 100%.


You can NEVER have too many good QB's.

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Tyler Thigpen strokes this fanbases irrational love affair with Rich Gannon, that's what all this is about.

If Thigpen would rise to Gannon's level of play I'd be happy with that and call it good.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:09 PM
And if we had Matt Ryan we'd be a hell of alot closer even with 1 or 2 wins than we are today...

It's more important to have the QB than the DE, ideally you have them both but QB is the #1 position.

The Chiefs had 2 dominant pass rushers and didn't win shit. Putting a pass rusher on the Chiefs makes them better right now but it doesn't address having what it takes to win a championship.

Putting a QB on the team without any semblance of a defense doesn't address having what it takes to win a championship either. You're asking too much of ANY QB to expect 30+ every game, much less a young guy.

It's only an issue because Stafford is "your guy."

You seem dead set on acquiring players in a certain order, yet in reality, it makes no fucking difference what order you get these guys - or how you get them, for that matter.

DaWolf
11-17-2008, 02:09 PM
It doesn't even matter if we get pass rushers or not as long as we have moronic coaches running the team. Even with Jared Allen our defense sucked.

The Chiefs also need to be a lot smarter in free agency. It seems to be working for the Jets. Of course they're not out there wasting money on Kendrell Bell.

I could stomach not drafting a QB if, say, we hired Scott Pioli to run the team, Josh McDaniels to coach the team, and Matt Cassel to be the QB...

Fish
11-17-2008, 02:10 PM
Perhaps, but it would be foolish to go into the offseason thinking that 100%.


You can NEVER have too many good QB's.

But you can have too many expensive QB contracts.....

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:11 PM
An interesting stat would be to know what the percentage is of first round QB's that actually:

1) Win a playoff game.
2) Win a playoff game with the team they were drafted.
3) Win a SB.

How far back do you want to go?

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 02:13 PM
Q: How many first round draft pick quarterbacks have won the Super Bowl?


http://site2.wikianswers.com/templates/icons/abar_a.gif?v=34445
<!-- if no answer, let the user know how to contribute --><!-- display answer --><!-- google_ad_section_start -->As of the 2007 season: Joe Namath - Super Bowl III
Bob Griese - Super Bowl VII and VIII
Terry Bradshaw - Super Bowls IX, X, XII, and XIII
Jim Plunkett - Super Bowls XV and XVIII
Jim McMahon - Super Bowl XX
Phil Simms - Super Bowl XXI
Doug Williams - Super Bowl XXII
Troy Aikman - Super Bowls XXVII, XXVIII, and
Steve Young - Super Bowl XXIX
John Elway - Super Bowls XXXII and XXXIII
Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl XXXV
Ben Roethlisberger - Super Bowl XL
Peyton Manning - Super Bowl XLI <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 02:14 PM
How far back do you want to go?

1965.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:23 PM
1965.

Fuck that, dude. I don't have that kind of time. Plus, the game has changed considerably.

Here are the numbers for the last 10 years.

Out of the 26 1st round QB's:

34.6% have won a playoff game for the team that drafted them.

7.6% have won a Super Bowl for the team that drafted them.

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 02:26 PM
Q: How many first round draft pick quarterbacks have won the Super Bowl?


http://site2.wikianswers.com/templates/icons/abar_a.gif?v=34445
<!-- if no answer, let the user know how to contribute --><!-- display answer --><!-- google_ad_section_start -->As of the 2007 season: Joe Namath - Super Bowl III
Bob Griese - Super Bowl VII and VIII
Terry Bradshaw - Super Bowls IX, X, XII, and XIII
Jim Plunkett - Super Bowls XV and XVIII
Jim McMahon - Super Bowl XX
Phil Simms - Super Bowl XXI
Doug Williams - Super Bowl XXII
Troy Aikman - Super Bowls XXVII, XXVIII, and
Steve Young - Super Bowl XXIX
John Elway - Super Bowls XXXII and XXXIII
Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl XXXV
Ben Roethlisberger - Super Bowl XL
Peyton Manning - Super Bowl XLI <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Eli Manning??

Chief Faithful
11-17-2008, 02:27 PM
If the next John Elway is available when the Chiefs pick then pick him. All I say is pick a player worthy of the high draft pick the Chiefs seem destined to receive.

I do not think Stafford will skip his senior season and if he did I don't think he is worthy of a top 5 pick. In my opinion there is not a senior QB worthy of a top 5 pick. Thus, take a DE with the first pick or trade down for extra picks.

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 02:30 PM
Eli Manning??

I was too lazy to add it to the list.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:30 PM
I took a second and went back to 1974.

Only looking at 1st round picks that won a SB. Trying to find out who on the list won a playoff game would be too time consuming. Anyway...

69 1st round QB's, 6 guys that won a SB with the team that drafted them. And that's counting Elway, who wasn't drafted by the Broncos.

8.6%

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 02:32 PM
What about all the great QB's drafted high like McNabb, Jim Kelly, etc who never won Super Bowls. Were they not worthy of being selected so high? They turned their franchise's around.

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 02:35 PM
I took a second and went back to 1974.

Only looking at 1st round picks that won a SB.

69 QB's, 6 guys that won with the team that drafted them. And that's counting Elway, who wasn't drafted by the Broncos.

8.6%

Awesome. Thanks for the work.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2008, 02:35 PM
Good front offices can find pass rushers anywhere in the draft.

Much tougher to find a franchise QB in the lower rounds.

Zouk
11-17-2008, 02:36 PM
And if we had Matt Ryan we'd be a hell of alot closer even with 1 or 2 wins than we are today...

It's more important to have the QB than the DE, ideally you have them both but QB is the #1 position.

The Chiefs had 2 dominant pass rushers and didn't win shit. Putting a pass rusher on the Chiefs makes them better right now but it doesn't address having what it takes to win a championship.


This is all true. I just wish I was as sold on Matt Stafford as I was on Matt Ryan. I have deep doubts.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:36 PM
What about all the great QB's drafted high like McNabb, Jim Kelly, etc who never won Super Bowls. Were they not worthy of being selected so high? They turned their franchise's around.

That wasn't the question posed.

Either "just getting there" is good enough, or it isn't.

But in this argument, and almost every other on this subject, the point keeps getting made that you need a 1st round QB to WIN a CHAMPIONSHIP.

Just being good enough isn't what it's about.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:37 PM
Awesome. Thanks for the work.


No problem.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 02:37 PM
Putting a QB on the team without any semblance of a defense doesn't address having what it takes to win a championship either. You're asking too much of ANY QB to expect 30+ every game, much less a young guy.

It's only an issue because Stafford is "your guy."

You seem dead set on acquiring players in a certain order, yet in reality, it makes no fucking difference what order you get these guys - or how you get them, for that matter.

It does make a fucking difference. Most teams aren't in position to draft a franchise quarterback every year. They are the hardest thing in the league to find, bar none. It's not even a fucking argument.

We are perilously close to one, after we haven't had a shot to draft one in 25 motherfucking years, and people think "Oh, ok. We can just wait until next year."

Meanwhile, in that time period, we've had Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, and Jared Allen at the DE spot, and such stiffs as John Alt, Willie Roaf, and now Branden Albert at LT.

Which one do you think is harder to find?

You don't ever ever pass up a franchise quarterback. This article is so revoltingly stupid Teicher should be fired for it.

the Talking Can
11-17-2008, 02:37 PM
He would rather have a stop gap free agent quarterback than a franchise one. How freaking stupid. :shake:

http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/451

It has to be a pass rusher

I don't care whether Matt Stafford, Peyton Manning or John Elway is available when the Chiefs make their first draft pick next year. Unless one of those guys can get after the quarterback, the Chiefs must pass them up in order to get a pass rusher.


Teicher is a true fan. Not even 3 decades of failure could change his love for Carl-style mediocrity.

For this disease there is no cure.

We need a QB more than anything. This franchise needs a purpose, a direction, a player to plan and build around, a focus for the fans, and a face. In other words: a Quarterback.

We need Stafford. Passing on him would be insane and outrageous. So, you know that it will happen.

Our franchise, and the majority of our fan base, are dumber than hell. Just flat out knuckle dragging stupid.

the Talking Can
11-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Yea and some people will never take that risk.....if you're to chickenshit to take a risk to be great, get out of the game.

Just being good enough isn't what it's about.

amazing, after all these years of shitty-ness...the only thing people care about is "not taking risks"......just blows my fucking head to little pieces...

mlyonsd
11-17-2008, 02:43 PM
We need a QB more than anything. This franchise needs a purpose, a direction, a player to plan and build around, a focus for the fans, and a face. In other words: a Quarterback.



Didn't think of it like that. I have to admit about the only thing I enjoy about a Chief's game this year is watching how Thigpen does.

the Talking Can
11-17-2008, 02:45 PM
Didn't think of it like that. I have to admit about the only thing I enjoy about a Chief's game this year is watching how Thigpen does.

of course...the QB position is far and away the most important piece, on and off the field...

that we have spent 20 years pretending otherwise is the biggest indictment of carl...

Deberg_1990
11-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Our franchise, and the majority of our fan base, are dumber than hell. Just flat out knuckle dragging stupid.


"But, But....Blackledge and Fuller failed.....so we cant draft another QB!! Its too risky!! "

patteeu
11-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Who went to and won Superbowls...

Did you look it up and realize that you were wrong?

bobbything
11-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Finding a good "pass rusher" (I like how he doesn't specify which actual position we need to draft), in theory, is easier than finding a good quarterback. So, it's easier, in theory, for the Chiefs to look like geniuses in this event.

All that being said, we've taken 5 defensive linemen in the last 8 drafts with our first pick. And so far, 4 of them have been busts (no point in making any evaluation on Dorsey just yet).

Edit: not to mention that we traded away the best "pass rusher" we've had in over 10 years this season. So, I don't hold out any hope that this front office, or coaching staff, will make the right decision.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:46 PM
It does make a fucking difference. Most teams aren't in position to draft a franchise quarterback every year. They are the hardest thing in the league to find, bar none. It's not even a fucking argument.

We are perilously close to one, after we haven't had a shot to draft one in 25 motherfucking years, and people think "Oh, ok. We can just wait until next year."

Meanwhile, in that time period, we've had Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, and Jared Allen at the DE spot, and such stiffs as John Alt, Willie Roaf, and now Branden Albert at LT.

Which one do you think is harder to find?

You don't ever ever pass up a franchise quarterback. This article is so revoltingly stupid Teicher should be fired for it.

And again, the point is, that we're not going to have the OPTION of picking Bulldog Jesus if the scouts think he's even .00001% of the prospect some guys on here think he is.

Hell, some of the guy who are playing the best at the QB position this year were taken in the LATE first, or outside the 1st altogether.

6 of the Top 10 QB's this year were taken in the late 1st, or a later round.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:49 PM
amazing, after all these years of shitty-ness...the only thing people care about is "not taking risks"......just blows my fucking head to little pieces...

Dude.

Read the thread.

The only people making this claim are Deberg and Mecca.

It has nothing to do with risk at this point, because it's almost universally agreed upon that Bulldog Jesus will already be gone, just like Ryan was.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 02:50 PM
Joe Namath: 1
Bob Griese: 2
Terry Bradshaw: 4
Troy Aikman: 3
John Elway: 2
Jim McMahon: 1
Peyton Manning: 1
Eli Manning:1
Phil Simms: 1


16/42 Super Bowls won by QBs who were first round draft picks by the teams that picked them. That's just off the top of my head, and it doesn't count guys like Plunkett, Young, Dilfer, and others who were also 1st rounders but won with another team.

patteeu
11-17-2008, 02:51 PM
Exactly what I was going to say.

It's just more of the same from Teicher. Still stroking Carl's ego and spitting out the verbal diarrhea that is the "Chiefs' philosophy" of the last 20 years.

Since 2001 we've taken Eric Downing, Ryan Simms, Junior Siavii, Tamba Hali, and Glenn Dorsey. That's 5 of the last 8 picks on the defensive line.

Just keep plugging way says Teicher. It's bound to work out at some point.

You must not hear much from Teicher if you think he's been stroking Carl's ego and spouting the party line for the past 20 years (or however many years he's been on the Chiefs' beat). His news articles naturally include the statements made by the Chiefs, but if you've ever heard his analysis on the radio, he's often pretty critical and pessimistic about Carl's designs.

the Talking Can
11-17-2008, 02:51 PM
Dude.

Read the thread.

The only people making this claim are Deberg and Mecca.

It has nothing to do with risk at this point, because it's almost universally agreed upon that Bulldog Jesus will already be gone, just like Ryan was.

actually, patteau is making exactly this claim, and others make it in different versions all the time...."we should do plan B because it is less risky"

Micjones
11-17-2008, 02:52 PM
Hopefully Thigpen can continue to impress and make drafting Stafford a moot point.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 02:52 PM
And again, the point is, that we're not going to have the OPTION of picking Bulldog Jesus if the scouts think he's even .00001% of the prospect some guys on here think he is.

Hell, some of the guy who are playing the best at the QB position this year were taken in the LATE first, or outside the 1st altogether.

6 of the Top 10 QB's this year were taken in the late 1st, or a later round.

Bullshit. You're deflecting and you know it.

Teicher clearly says that he'd take a DE over anyone, and not even the Iraqi Information Minister would deny that.

Chiefnj2
11-17-2008, 02:54 PM
Why are people writing off Thigpen? If Stafford were drafted next year and after 9 games put up stats similar to Thigpen's people would be singing his praises and flouting their draft prowess.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 02:57 PM
This board just proves to me how many fucking dumbasses will argue just to argue.

It's not only the most important position in sports, it's also the hardest to find. And people want us to try and pick up guys off the street or from the seventh fucking round.

These morons would play in a poker tournament, and get blinded off down to nothing. Then, on the one hand they play, they'd be willing to push all their chips in even if they needed to hit a runner-runner for a straight fucking flush to win the hand.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2008, 02:58 PM
Why are people writing off Thigpen? If Stafford were drafted next year and after 9 games put up stats similar to Thigpen's people would be singing his praises and flouting their draft prowess.

Thigpen has done absolutely nothing to convince anyone we shouldn't draft a franchise quarterback. He hasn't even won a fucking game.

Franchise quarterbacks don't underthrow Mark Bradley when he's wide open for an easy TD bomb.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 02:59 PM
Bullshit. You're deflecting and you know it.

Teicher clearly says that he'd take a DE over anyone, and not even the Iraqi Information Minister would deny that.

So what?

Maybe Teicher doesn't think that Stafford is Football Jesus like you and Mecca do.

Maybe he doesn't know jack shit about Stafford.

Maybe he's seen this offense come to life the past 4 weeks, and realizes that until the defense fucking stops someone, there's not a QB in the league that will guide this team to wins on a consistent basis.

You guys think it's a dumb opinion because you've put all your eggs in Stafford's basket. Comparisons to John Elway and Carson Palmer? Dear God.

Personally, I think it's a dumb opinion because you're painting yourself into a corner 5 months before the fucking draft.

If the BPA is a QB, then by all means, take him. If it's a DE, take him.

Taking the BPA at a position of need should be rather easy, considering we have a shit-ton of needs...

bobbything
11-17-2008, 03:00 PM
These morons would play in a poker tournament, and get blinded off down to nothing. Then, on the one hand they play, they'd be willing to push all their chips in even if they needed to hit a runner-runner for a straight ****ing flush to win the hand.
Dude, you'd have reached more people on this board if you would have gone with a Dungeons and Dragons analogy instead.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:03 PM
Why are people writing off Thigpen? If Stafford were drafted next year and after 9 games put up stats similar to Thigpen's people would be singing his praises and flouting their draft prowess.

Because he's a 7th round guy, from a ridiculously small school.

If he were a 1st round pick from a BCS school, these guys would be sucking him off.

Over the last 4 games, he's playing at the same, or higher level than everyone's QB-crush, Matt Ryan, and doing it with less talent around him and inferior coaching.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 03:07 PM
So what?

Maybe Teicher doesn't think that Stafford is Football Jesus like you and Mecca do.

Maybe he doesn't know jack shit about Stafford.

Maybe he's seen this offense come to life the past 4 weeks, and realizes that until the defense fucking stops someone, there's not a QB in the league that will guide this team to wins on a consistent basis.

You guys think it's a dumb opinion because you've put all your eggs in Stafford's basket. Comparisons to John Elway and Carson Palmer? Dear God.

Personally, I think it's a dumb opinion because you're painting yourself into a corner 5 months before the fucking draft.

If the BPA is a QB, then by all means, take him. If it's a DE, take him.

Taking the BPA at a position of need should be rather easy, considering we have a shit-ton of needs...

You'd think for all your blustering, you'd actually understand what positional value is and how it relates to drafting in the top five.

Why don't you ask Matt Millen how BPA at all costs has done for him at the very top of the draft board?

A QB whose ceiling is, say, fifth-eighth best in the league, is still even then worth more than any other player in a draft class.

And I, for one, have not made John Elway comparisons with Stafford. I said he's a Jay Cutler/Carson Palmer type prospect multiple times...and if they did the '06 draft over, Jay Cutler, for all his flaws as a prospect, would go #1 overall because his game translates to the pro level in any system.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 03:10 PM
Because he's a 7th round guy, from a ridiculously small school.

If he were a 1st round pick from a BCS school, these guys would be sucking him off.

Over the last 4 games, he's playing at the same, or higher level than everyone's QB-crush, Matt Ryan, and doing it with less talent around him and inferior coaching.

I'm sorry if you've fallen in love with Derek Anderson. I really like Thigpen as a player, but anyone who thinks that he is the answer has absolutely no business telling anyone that they are overreacting to another QB prospect. It's the height of hypocrisy.

He's probably a top 20-30 QB in this league at best. Stop conflating fantasy stats with potential. Next thing you know, you'll be jerking off to Graham Harrell.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:15 PM
This board just proves to me how many fucking dumbasses will argue just to argue.

It's not only the most important position in sports, it's also the hardest to find. And people want us to try and pick up guys off the street or from the seventh fucking round.

These morons would play in a poker tournament, and get blinded off down to nothing. Then, on the one hand they play, they'd be willing to push all their chips in even if they needed to hit a runner-runner for a straight fucking flush to win the hand.

Dude. Seriously.

Who said that? I respect your insight too much to see you take this "Mecca" approach of arguing shit that isn't there.

Out of the 32 starters in the NFL, at least half, if not more, came from outside the Top 10, and are doing just fine.

To say that the only way a team is going to get a franchise guy is to pick in the Top 10 is asinine, and you know it.

Cleveland - you're fucked. Quinn was a late 1st round pick.

Baltimore - You're fucked. Flacco was a late 1st round pick.

Buffalo - You're fucked. Edwards was a 3rd round pick.

Green Bay - You're fucked. Rodgers was a late 1st round pick.

Washington - You're fucked. Campbell was a late 1st round pick.

Jacksonville - You're fucked. Garrard was a 4th round pick.

Houston - You're fucked. Schaub was a 3rd round pick.

New Orleans - You're fucked. Brees was a 2nd round pick.


That's a quarter of the league, and I could probably keep going...

ChiefsCountry
11-17-2008, 03:16 PM
16/42 Super Bowls won by QBs who were first round draft picks by the teams that picked them. That's just off the top of my head, and it doesn't count guys like Plunkett, Young, Dilfer, and others who were also 1st rounders but won with another team.

Add our own Len Dawson to that group.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:21 PM
You'd think for all your blustering, you'd actually understand what positional value is and how it relates to drafting in the top five.

Why don't you ask Matt Millen how BPA at all costs has done for him at the very top of the draft board?

A QB whose ceiling is, say, fifth-eighth best in the league, is still even then worth more than any other player in a draft class.

And I, for one, have not made John Elway comparisons with Stafford. I said he's a Jay Cutler/Carson Palmer type prospect multiple times...and if they did the '06 draft over, Jay Cutler, for all his flaws as a prospect, would go #1 overall because his game translates to the pro level in any system.

Where did I say BPA at all costs?

I said BPA at a position of need, which considering all our needs, should be easy.

I'm not claiming that Thigpen is the answer.

I'm just not making myself look like a fucking retard by saying that if we don't draft Stafford, then this team will never amount to anything. (And I'm not saying that YOU did - but you know it's been thrown around.)

I think it's fucking hilarious that people don't learn from past drafts.

You've got guys on here who this time last year thought that Brian Brohm was the best QB in the class and Boston College Jesus was barely on the radar. Forgive me if that I'm not rushing to swallow their assessments about this class in fucking NOVEMBER.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry if you've fallen in love with Derek Anderson. I really like Thigpen as a player, but anyone who thinks that he is the answer has absolutely no business telling anyone that they are overreacting to another QB prospect. It's the height of hypocrisy.

He's probably a top 20-30 QB in this league at best. Stop conflating fantasy stats with potential. Next thing you know, you'll be jerking off to Graham Harrell.

Again, where did I say he's the answer?

Chief Faithful
11-17-2008, 03:23 PM
:eek:It does make a ****ing difference. Most teams aren't in position to draft a franchise quarterback every year. They are the hardest thing in the league to find, bar none. It's not even a ****ing argument.

We are perilously close to one, after we haven't had a shot to draft one in 25 mother****ing years, and people think "Oh, ok. We can just wait until next year."

Meanwhile, in that time period, we've had Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas, and Jared Allen at the DE spot, and such stiffs as John Alt, Willie Roaf, and now Branden Albert at LT.

Which one do you think is harder to find?

You don't ever ever pass up a franchise quarterback. This article is so revoltingly stupid Teicher should be fired for it.

:eek: We agree! :eek:

Now here is the question, will this draft have a franchise quarterback and if so who? I don't think Stafford will be in the next draft and even if so I don't think he is a franchise QB.

dj56dt58
11-17-2008, 03:32 PM
I agree with him...the way Thigpen is playing, we need a pass rusher more than we need Stafford

dj56dt58
11-17-2008, 03:32 PM
:eek:

:eek: We agree! :eek:

Now here is the question, will this draft have a franchise quarterback and if so who? I don't think Stafford will be in the next draft and even if so I don't think he is a franchise QB.

I agree with this too

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:33 PM
:eek:

:eek: We agree! :eek:

Now here is the question, will this draft have a franchise quarterback and if so who? I don't think Stafford will be in the next draft and even if so I don't think he is a franchise QB.

Then, you don't agree.

Hamas, along with a few others, think that Stafford is the best prospect at QB since Carson Palmer. In November of his Junior year, no less.

Yeah, better than Manning, Roethlisberger, Cutler, Rodgers, Ryan...

He has all the physical tools, and all the excuses as to why his stats aren't that impressive.

Stafford is Bulldog Jesus.

FringeNC
11-17-2008, 03:33 PM
I'm confused. We had a top pass rusher last year, and we were awful.

The Bad Guy
11-17-2008, 03:34 PM
If you pass on a franchise QB, you are a true retard.

You can get a pass rushing DE in any draft.

You can't get a franchise guy.

Chief Faithful
11-17-2008, 03:37 PM
Thigpen has done absolutely nothing to convince anyone we shouldn't draft a franchise quarterback. He hasn't even won a ****ing game.

Franchise quarterbacks don't underthrow Mark Bradley when he's wide open for an easy TD bomb.

I don't see him as a franchise QB either, but really bad example.

Sure-Oz
11-17-2008, 03:38 PM
QB, if Stafford is gone or Bradford i'd go with Orakpo....

That said please win a damn game detroit

jjchieffan
11-17-2008, 03:38 PM
Take a look at San Diego. Last year, they were one game from the superbowl. This year, they still have that top draft pick QB, but are missing their PASS RUSHER and look at where they are this year. I would rather have a Shawn Merriman over Matt Stafford any day.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:38 PM
I'm confused. We had a top pass rusher last year, and we were awful.

It goes MUCH further than a single pass rusher, IMO.

With the exception of Dorsey, and maybe Tyler and DJ, this entire front 7 is a fucking sham.

We need a pass rusher, Hali to stay healthy an entire season, Dorsey and Tyler to step it up, a MLB and a OLB - and that's not counting anyone for depth.

Oh, and the right side of the OL is a fucking disgrace as well.

Sure-Oz
11-17-2008, 03:39 PM
Take a look at San Diego. Last year, they were one game from the superbowl. This year, they still have that top draft pick QB, but are missing their PASS RUSHER and look at where they are this year. I would rather have a Shawn Merriman over Matt Stafford any day.

ROFL

Cause Merriman will win them a SB? They'd be fucked without Rivers

Chief Faithful
11-17-2008, 03:39 PM
Then, you don't agree.

Hamas, along with a few others, think that Stafford is the best prospect at QB since Carson Palmer. In November of his Junior year, no less.

Yeah, better than Manning, Roethlisberger, Cutler, Rodgers, Ryan...

He has all the physical tools, and all the excuses as to why his stats aren't that impressive.

Stafford is Bulldog Jesus.

I agree with him that if you have a chance to pick a franchise QB then you have to do it. He is also right that the Chiefs have not been in position to pick that known person for decades.

I never said I agreed with his thoughts on Stafford.

FringeNC
11-17-2008, 03:39 PM
It goes MUCH further than a single pass rusher, IMO.

With the exception of Dorsey, and maybe Tyler and DJ, this entire front 7 is a ****ing sham.

We need a pass rusher, Hali to stay healthy an entire season, Dorsey and Tyler to step it up, a MLB and a OLB - and that's not counting anyone for depth.

Oh, and the right side of the OL is a ****ing disgrace as well.

Yeah...we have a lot more problems than a lack of a pass rusher. Having a competent GM, HC, and DC would help, for starters, along with the positions you alluded to.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:40 PM
If you pass on a franchise QB, you are a true retard.

You can get a pass rushing DE in any draft.

You can't get a franchise guy.

And for the eleventy-billionth time, according to all the so-called "experts" around here, we're not going to have the opportunity, regardless where you stand on Stafford being "that guy" or not.

Sure-Oz
11-17-2008, 03:41 PM
This defense is capable of ****ing us over on a few more wins i'd think

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:46 PM
ROFL

Cause Merriman will win them a SB? They'd be fucked without Rivers

Now they would, sure.

It could be argued that had they kept Brees, they'd already have that Lombardi Trophy...

People keep forgetting that football is a team game.

One guy is not going to make the difference, even at QB.

That's why guys like Trent Dilfer have rings, and guys like Dan Marino don't.

Building a team goes further than just the QB.

jjchieffan
11-17-2008, 03:48 PM
ROFL

Cause Merriman will win them a SB? They'd be ****ed without Rivers

Yeah, because Rivers is such a great QB. San Diego kept the wrong QB. Brees is much better. Rivers is mediocre at best. With our current QB dilemma, I still wouldn't give a first round pick to trade for him.

chiefzilla1501
11-17-2008, 03:50 PM
Take a look at San Diego. Last year, they were one game from the superbowl. This year, they still have that top draft pick QB, but are missing their PASS RUSHER and look at where they are this year. I would rather have a Shawn Merriman over Matt Stafford any day.

Yeah, I agree. There has to be a balance between the two. Trent Green played like a franchise QB, but led us to one playoff game. Carson Palmer's a pro bowler with the same issues. Drew Brees and Kurt Warner might right now be the two best QBs in the NFL, but neither will probably be good enough to win a playoff game. Meanwhile, you have what I believe are the best two teams in the NFL, Carolina and Tennessee, winning with below average QB play.

I agree you need strong QB play. But I think we need to break out of the stigma that the only QBs of value come from the top 5 of the draft. Because last time I checked, we're getting strong QB play right now and we're still losing games. I don't think I'd take a pass rusher over a Stafford, but I think there's a collective panic over this idea of having to take a QB with the first round pick. What I think is really interesting is, if Thigpen was drafted in the first round playing as he is now, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

dirk digler
11-17-2008, 03:53 PM
of course...the QB position is far and away the most important piece, on and off the field...

that we have spent 20 years pretending otherwise is the biggest indictment of carl...

Yep dead on. We have tried drafting DL so let's try drafting a franchise QB if we have a shot

jjchieffan
11-17-2008, 03:54 PM
If you pass on a franchise QB, you are a true retard.

You can get a pass rushing DE in any draft.

You can't get a franchise guy.

Yeah, that's why Minnesota ponied up so much for Allen. Please. Puss rushing DE is every bit as valuable as QB.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 03:57 PM
Yeah, that's why Minnesota ponied up so much for Allen. Please. Puss rushing DE is every bit as valuable as QB.

In all honesty, Minnesota was fucking retarded for doing that deal, IMO.

And I don't agree with you saying DE > QB, either.

IMO, QB is the most important position on the field.

I just don't think that you have to pick in the Top 5 to get a successful one.

jjchieffan
11-17-2008, 03:57 PM
Yeah, I agree. There has to be a balance between the two. Trent Green played like a franchise QB, but led us to one playoff game. Carson Palmer's a pro bowler with the same issues. Drew Brees and Kurt Warner might right now be the two best QBs in the NFL, but neither will probably be good enough to win a playoff game. Meanwhile, you have what I believe are the best two teams in the NFL, Carolina and Tennessee, winning with below average QB play.

I agree you need strong QB play. But I think we need to break out of the stigma that the only QBs of value come from the top 5 of the draft. Because last time I checked, we're getting strong QB play right now and we're still losing games. I don't think I'd take a pass rusher over a Stafford, but I think there's a collective panic over this idea of having to take a QB with the first round pick. What I think is really interesting is, if Thigpen was drafted in the first round playing as he is now, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Ding ding ding. Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner. That is the absolute truth. Had Thigpen been a high first round pick, even Mecca and Hamas would be singing his praises. Too many people get hung up on the stigma of a franchise QB having to be taken at the top of the draft.

jjchieffan
11-17-2008, 04:02 PM
In all honesty, Minnesota was ****ing retarded for doing that deal, IMO.

And I don't agree with you saying DE > QB, either.

IMO, QB is the most important position on the field.

I just don't think that you have to pick in the Top 5 to get a successful one.

I may have skewed my argument a bit. Actually I believe that the 2 are equally important. I am just not hung up on getting the first pick in the draft and taking Stafford. I would rather see the team win a couple of games and then take a pass rusher. If we draft first, then fine, take Stafford. But if we don't, then that doesn't mean that this franchise is screwed.

The Bad Guy
11-17-2008, 04:02 PM
Yeah, that's why Minnesota ponied up so much for Allen. Please. Puss rushing DE is every bit as valuable as QB.

75% of NFL rosters have pass rushers.

Bills - Schobel
Jets - Ellis
Patriots - Seymour
Dolphins - Joey Porter

Steelers - LaMar Woodley
Ravens - Suggs
Browns - none
Bengals - none

Texans- Super Mario
Colts- Dwight Freeney
Jaguars - none
Titans - Vandenbosch

Broncos - Dumervil
Raiders - Burgess (before he got hurt)
Chargers - Merriman
Chiefs- None

Giants - Osi, Tuck
Cowboys - Ware
Redskins - Taylor (before he got hurt)
Eagles - Trent Cole

Bears - Ogunleye
Vikings - Allen
Packers - Kampman
Lions - None

Bucs- Gaines Adams
Falcons- Abraham
Panthers - Peppers
Saints - Charles Grant (pre-injury)

49ers - none
Rams - Chris Long
Seahawks - Kearney
Cardinals - none

How many of them have franchise QBs? 10 and that's being very generous by me calling Rivers, Roethlisburger, and Cutler franchise guys.

Do the math.

The Vikings paid a king's ransom for Allen because they felt they were one player away. Teams will overspend when they are in that situation.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 04:03 PM
Yeah, that's why Minnesota ponied up so much for Allen. Please. Puss rushing DE is every bit as valuable as QB.

If you put a legit QB on Minnesota their a bowl contender even without Jared Allen...

I know people dislike Rivers since he's in the division but he's been pretty damn good this year.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 04:04 PM
Bad guy, Joey Porter is leading the league in sacks so the Dolphins have a pass rusher.

The Bad Guy
11-17-2008, 04:06 PM
Bad guy, Joey Porter is leading the league in sacks so the Dolphins have a pass rusher.

Excellent call. I completely forgot about him.

Skip Towne
11-17-2008, 04:07 PM
If you put a legit QB on Minnesota their a bowl contender even without Jared Allen...

I know people dislike Rivers since he's in the division but he's been pretty damn good this year.

Is Rivers as good as Eli? How bad did the Mannings screw the Chargers?

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 04:09 PM
If you put a legit QB on Minnesota their a bowl contender even without Jared Allen...

I know people dislike Rivers since he's in the division but he's been pretty damn good this year.

And remind me, what is the Chargers record?

chiefzilla1501
11-17-2008, 04:12 PM
But the thing you leave out is that the great teams typically have two guys who can rush the passer. Some even have three. The great thing about a DE is they have low bust potential. If they're not studs, they can at least be rotational rushers. New York did it last year with Kiwanuka, Tuck, and Omienyura.

Now, I can agree that in terms of impact, a QB is far more valuable. But I think you're simplifying the DE position quite a bit. Yes, all those guys rush the passer. But a lot of them are light, 260 lb speed rushers who are a liability against the run. You look at a guy like Julius Peppers who is a freak against the run, the pass, and even in pass coverage, vs. a guy like Dumervil who is a huge liability against the run.

75% of NFL rosters have pass rushers.

Bills - Schobel
Jets - Ellis
Patriots - Seymour
Dolphins - Joey Porter

Steelers - LaMar Woodley
Ravens - Suggs
Browns - none
Bengals - none

Texans- Super Mario
Colts- Dwight Freeney
Jaguars - none
Titans - Vandenbosch

Broncos - Dumervil
Raiders - Burgess (before he got hurt)
Chargers - Merriman
Chiefs- None

Giants - Osi, Tuck
Cowboys - Ware
Redskins - Taylor (before he got hurt)
Eagles - Trent Cole

Bears - Ogunleye
Vikings - Allen
Packers - Kampman
Lions - None

Bucs- Gaines Adams
Falcons- Abraham
Panthers - Peppers
Saints - Charles Grant (pre-injury)

49ers - none
Rams - Chris Long
Seahawks - Kearney
Cardinals - none

How many of them have franchise QBs? 10 and that's being very generous by me calling Rivers, Roethlisburger, and Cutler franchise guys.

Do the math.

The Vikings paid a king's ransom for Allen because they felt they were one player away. Teams will overspend when they are in that situation.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 04:12 PM
The Chargers are an exception, that is really all I can say. They are one of the most talented teams in football and have no excuse to have that record...Tomlinson is about done which isn't helping them out, but still no excuse to have that record with those players.

The Cowboys are in my view the most talented and without Tony Romo they are butt ugly awful.

chiefzilla1501
11-17-2008, 04:12 PM
And remind me, what is the Chargers record?

The Chargers are doing fine on offense. If there's any major reason for the dropoff, many would argue that it's Merriman.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 04:13 PM
Shawn Phillips is a good player but as the dominant rusher he's a bit out of place, Jamal williams is getting old.....and their SS is a liability.

OnTheWarpath58
11-17-2008, 04:20 PM
The Chargers are doing fine on offense. If there's any major reason for the dropoff, many would argue that it's Merriman.

That's exactly my point.

Merriman being out causes all sorts of problems for the Chargers defense.

It forces you to play Phillips out of position, which weakens your front 7, and all but eliminates your pass rush, which is why Mecca's boy Cromartie looks like William fucking Bartee.

Not having a pass rush fucks up your entire defense - which makes what our young CB's are doing even more impressive, IMO.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 04:22 PM
Whoa Whoa Whoa, he's not Bartee bad, he's still a raw player with great talent but he's not Bartee.

The Bad Guy
11-17-2008, 04:23 PM
But the thing you leave out is that the great teams typically have two guys who can rush the passer. Some even have three. The great thing about a DE is they have low bust potential. If they're not studs, they can at least be rotational rushers. New York did it last year with Kiwanuka, Tuck, and Omienyura.

Now, I can agree that in terms of impact, a QB is far more valuable. But I think you're simplifying the DE position quite a bit. Yes, all those guys rush the passer. But a lot of them are light, 260 lb speed rushers who are a liability against the run. You look at a guy like Julius Peppers who is a freak against the run, the pass, and even in pass coverage, vs. a guy like Dumervil who is a huge liability against the run.

The point is pass rushers are far easier to get than QBs.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 04:25 PM
The point is pass rushers are far easier to get than QBs.

Yes, we're talking about nearly every team having 1, alot of teams having 2 and some teams going 3 deep.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2008, 04:25 PM
The Cowboys are in my view the most talented and without Tony Romo they are butt ugly awful.

Not to mention they have pass rush all over the place.

But without Romo...butt ugly awful.

chiefzilla1501
11-17-2008, 04:44 PM
The point is pass rushers are far easier to get than QBs.

Pass rushers, yes. Complete DEs, no. Very difficult to find an every-down DE in this league.

Thing is, I'm skeptical that Orakpo is anything more than a situational pass rusher. If he is, I don't want him in the top 5.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 05:16 PM
Pass rushers, yes. Complete DEs, no. Very difficult to find an every-down DE in this league.

Thing is, I'm skeptical that Orakpo is anything more than a situational pass rusher. If he is, I don't want him in the top 5.

This is a pretty deep DE year but there isn't one guy without question marks, no Mario Williams types...

No matter who the guy is there is atleast 1 if not more question marks about him hell most people can't even agree on who the top guy is.

orange
11-17-2008, 05:32 PM
A question to college football fans and draftniks:

Why is this even an issue? Are there any top-flight passrushers this year?

I haven't heard anybody mentioned as the second coming of Lawrence Taylor or Reggie White - or even Julius Peppers for that matter. Who would the Chiefs be choosing between at pick #2 or #3?

Mecca
11-17-2008, 05:34 PM
There aren't any Peppers or Mario Williams.....I talked about that in the previous post, it's a deep year but there is no elite guy.

chiefzilla1501
11-17-2008, 05:35 PM
This is a pretty deep DE year but there isn't one guy without question marks, no Mario Williams types...

No matter who the guy is there is atleast 1 if not more question marks about him hell most people can't even agree on who the top guy is.

No, I agree with this.

orange
11-17-2008, 05:36 PM
Probably no one who's going to grade out in the top three picks, then?

I bet there will be two QBs there.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 05:37 PM
The QB's deal is dependent on who comes out.....

The only position I'm sure you'll see 2 top 5 guys is LT.

orange
11-17-2008, 05:40 PM
So if your right, I don't think Chiefs fans need to worry about this DE pick coming to pass.

Unless Herm wants to be sure to jump early and lock up the next Tamba Hali.

Sure-Oz
11-17-2008, 05:40 PM
Cowboys and Vikings have a hell of a pass rush and a good RB atleast, but without a QB neither team will do shit unless they become an ELITE Ravens/Bucs type of defense

chiefzilla1501
11-17-2008, 05:53 PM
Cowboys and Vikings have a hell of a pass rush and a good RB atleast, but without a QB neither team will do shit unless they become an ELITE Ravens/Bucs type of defense

That's deceptive, though, because you're talking about awful QBs. Few teams could win with an awful QB, just as few teams could win without any kind of pass rush.

The question is not if Big Ben would be leading the Cowboys or Vikings to victory. The question is, could Tyler Thigpen? Too early to say, but I don't think it's ridiculous to say that he's better than Frerotte or Brad Johnson.

Short Leash Hootie
11-17-2008, 05:56 PM
If Peyton Manning was available to draft and we had the #2 pick..I would trade the #2 pick plus the rest of our next two drafts for him at #1.

MahiMike
11-17-2008, 07:21 PM
I agree w/the basic premise of the article. Looking at Vince Young, Matt Leinert and Alex Smith just makes it even more clear that taking a QB that early is a crap shoot. Go w/Tyler until both lines are above average. No need to hurry.

Unless of course we get Tebow!!!

chiefsngop
11-17-2008, 07:45 PM
His own 610am cohort Nick Wright, basically called Teicher a retard for making having this ludicrous opinion.

Yes if a Peyton Manning guy was available you pass him up for an unproven rookie pass rusher.......ROFL

chiefsngop
11-17-2008, 07:47 PM
So if your right, I don't think Chiefs fans need to worry about this DE pick coming to pass.

Unless Herm wants to be sure to jump early and lock up the next Tamba Hali.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

prhom
11-17-2008, 07:48 PM
I agree to a point with Teicher on this, with the exception of his idea to bring in other QBs from free agency to be our QBOTF. I still think that to really develop a QB you need to have some degree of a solid team built around them. I don't know enough about the supporting cast in ATL to say whether that qualifies as a "solid" team, but I seriously doubt if Ryan would have come in and put us in the same position the Falcons are in right now. I think Tyler can play serviceably for the time being, he might even become a top 10 guy if we could keep things stable for a while.

CHENZ A!
11-17-2008, 07:57 PM
Didn't read the entire thread, and with all the "good" football minds here on the planet, I'm sure someone has already mentioned this.

But, has anyone noticed that the best team in the NFL is QB'ed by a veteran that they acquired via FA? I bet Tennessee wishes they had the Vince Young pick back at this point.

Douche Baggins
11-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Didn't read the entire thread, and with all the "good" football minds here on the planet, I'm sure someone has already mentioned this.

But, has anyone noticed that the best team in the NFL is QB'ed by a veteran that they acquired via FA? I bet Tennessee wishes they had the Vince Young pick back at this point.

I'm sure Carl loves this post.

Unfortunately the Titans won't sniff the Super Bowl this year.

orange
11-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Didn't read the entire thread, and with all the "good" football minds here on the planet, I'm sure someone has already mentioned this.

But, has anyone noticed that the best team in the NFL is QB'ed by a veteran that they acquired via FA? I bet Tennessee wishes they had the Vince Young pick back at this point.

The BEST team in the NFL is the New York Giants.

Let's talk about how they acquired THEIR quarterback.

Mecca
11-17-2008, 08:05 PM
The Titans probably make Carl jizz, they are everything the 90s Chiefs were....

The Giants gave up 2 1sts and a 3rd for Manning.

shaneo69
11-17-2008, 08:31 PM
The BEST team in the NFL is the New York Giants.

Strahan, Umeniyora, Kiwanuka, Tuck...

the Talking Can
11-17-2008, 08:32 PM
Didn't read the entire thread, and with all the "good" football minds here on the planet, I'm sure someone has already mentioned this.

But, has anyone noticed that the best team in the NFL is QB'ed by a veteran that they acquired via FA? I bet Tennessee wishes they had the Vince Young pick back at this point.

the titans aren't the best team in football, the giants are

and they'd trade Collins for Manning in a freaking heartbeat....

Mecca
11-17-2008, 08:33 PM
Strahan, Umeniyora, Kiwanuka, Tuck...

If you hadn't noticed...right now they only have 2 of those guys.

orange
11-17-2008, 08:43 PM
Strahan, Umeniyora, Kiwanuka, Tuck...

2nd round (?, currently retired), 2nd round (56, currently IR), 1st round (32), 3rd round (74)


Eli Manning - 1st round (1, Superbowl MVP)


If you hadn't noticed...right now they only have 2 of those guys.

Yeah, well you were quicker but I was MUCH MORE DETAILED.:toast:

Chief Faithful
11-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Ding ding ding. Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner. That is the absolute truth. Had Thigpen been a high first round pick, even Mecca and Hamas would be singing his praises. Too many people get hung up on the stigma of a franchise QB having to be taken at the top of the draft.

I disagree. In order for Thigpen to be that first round pick he would have been a much more known quantity. The reason these discussions exist is because he is not a known quantity and so far he has not proven he can play from center traditional NFL play-action power offense.

ChiefsCountry
11-17-2008, 09:57 PM
The Titans probably make Carl jizz, they are everything the 90s Chiefs were....

The Giants gave up 2 1sts and a 3rd for Manning.

Make that Phillip Rivers, Shawne Merriman, and Nate Keading.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-17-2008, 10:48 PM
<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> OTW,

Iím going to address all of your points without the multiquote, so if I forget one, just let me know and Iíll address it later.
<o></o>
Patteeu, for one, clearly came out and said that we should just look for low cost alternatives off the street and late round draft picks, that just doesnít work in this league unless you are extraordinarily lucky. You canít bank on luck to win a league with 31 other participants.
<o></o>
As far as your argument that most starters in this league came from outside the top 10óyou are correct, and Iím not going to deny that. You donít need a top 10 QB to compete. However, I do believe that you need an elite QB to give yourself a good chance to win the Super Bowl.
<o></o>
Think about all the teams that have been able to win the Super Bowl with a phenomenal defense and running game, and a game manager at QB
<o></o>
In the last 25 years, the only ones that come up are the Ravens, the Bucs, and the Ď90 Giants team. Now, most people will say ďhey, what about the Bears?Ē The Bears had a great defenseóthey also had a great offense that year. I believe they were in the top 3 in the league in fact. What most people forget is that the Bears had an even better defense in í86 than í85, but their offensive play dropped off and they washed out of the playoffs because of it.
<o></o>
It should be noted that the í05 Steelers could be put here as well, but Iíd give the refs an assist for that one.
<o></o>
Now, in that same period of time, Troy Aikman won three Super Bowls, the Manning brothers have won two total, Elway won two, and guys like Steve Young (who was an all-world talent 1<sup>st</sup> rounder that the Bucs gave up on) not only won Super Bowls, but went to multiple conference championship games.

7 Super Bowls in the last 15 years have come from quarterbacks drafted #1 overall. Thatís not to say any #1 is a lock, but show me how many other positions drafted #1 overall since 1983 have as many Super Bowl wins to their credit?
<o></o>
Granted, I know that you arenít making the argument that QB isnít important (but others are), but you also have to give me enough leeway to realize that Iím not arguing Stafford because I think that heís the second coming, Iím arguing for Stafford because I see him as far and away the best QB prospect in this class, and hereís why:
<o></o>
So many times when people go back and see bad draft picks, the old axim of ďbring up the tapeĒ is used. Thatís the difference between a guy like <st1>Stafford</st1> and Josh Freeman.<st1>Stafford</st1>'s arm isnít the reason why heís a great prospectóitís one of the reasons. He also has 3 years of experience in the toughest conference in the country, but more importantly he comes from a pro-style offense, shows a good ability to read and recognize coverages, has good mechanics, and very good innate athletic ability.

If you wanted to draw a baseball analogy, heís a five tool player. The only thing that you could degrade him for is the fact that he throws a decent number of picks. But if you look back over the last several years, you will find that many QBs who turned out unbelievably well came from similar situations where they had less talented teams, and were forced to put the ball into tight spaces in order to make up for it.

Now, hereís why Iím arguing this so vociferously now:

Scouts will see Josh Freeman at the combine and sport diamond-cutting wood over his measureables. People wonít go back and look at the tape and find a guy who canít read a defense, constantly makes poor decisions, is an inaccurate passer, and lacks all ability to put touch on his passes. Theyíll see him throw a football 70 yards, and heíll have them at hello.

If he comes out, people will talk about Sam Bradfordís stats, how accurate he was, how many TDís he threw, all the while ignoring the fact that nothing that he has done helps prepare him for the pros. His receivers run wide open, and he never has to make difficult throws, and when heís faced pressure, he hasnít shown an ability to handle it well. Heís a great QB for 7 on 7, but heís in for a rude awakening at the next level.

Now, the reason why Iím arguing like this is because <st1>Stafford</st1>l is the only franchise QB this year. Heís the only guy out of this class that I can see taking a team deep into the playoffs repeatedly. Thatís not something that more than a handful of QBs in this league have done. It should also be said that E. Manning, Roethlisberger, and Rivers were in a phenomenal class, and the í06 class was deep too. Iím not saying we should drop a pick like this on Stafford [I]just because heís a quarterback, Iím arguing that we should drop this pick because not only is he a QB, heís the best QB in the class in a year with a very shallow talent pool, who would be coming to a team that isnít going to be nearly this bad next year and probably wonít be in a good position to have the ďpick of the litterĒ so to speak.
<o></o>
<o>As far as the other QBs are concerned, if I wanted to win the Super Bowl, I would want no part of the following quarterbacks:</o>
<o></o>
<o>Russell</o>
<o>Schaub</o>
<o>Collins</o>
<o>Garrard
</o><o>Delhomme (now)
</o>Garcia/Griese
Campbell
Orton/Grossman
Whoever is in Detroit
Frerotte
Shaun Hill
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck (with what he is now)
Trent Edwards
Chad Pennington


Those are guys you just flat can't win a Super Bowl with unless you have a once in a decade team around them.
<o></o>
<o></o>I know Iíve already used this analogy in this thread, but Iím going to do it again. You have to treat first round QBs like you do betting in poker. They arenít a sure thing, just like a flush draw isnít a sure thing. But if you can call a $100 bet to win a pot that already has $600 dollars in it, you take that bet every time, because even though you are only 4-1 to make the flush on the last card, you get paid off far more if you hit it than if you miss.

We canít just keep checking down to the river, hoping to win every hand with the nuts. You have to be aggressive to win in this league.

yeti
11-17-2008, 11:24 PM
<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> OTW,

Iím going to address all of your points without the multiquote, so if I forget one, just let me know and Iíll address it later.
<o></o>
Patteeu, for one, clearly came out and said that we should just look for low cost alternatives off the street and late round draft picks, that just doesnít work in this league unless you are extraordinarily lucky. You canít bank on luck to win a league with 31 other participants.
<o></o>
As far as your argument that most starters in this league came from outside the top 10óyou are correct, and Iím not going to deny that. You donít need a top 10 QB to compete. However, I do believe that you need an elite QB to give yourself a good chance to win the Super Bowl.
<o></o>
Think about all the teams that have been able to win the Super Bowl with a phenomenal defense and running game, and a game manager at QB
<o></o>
In the last 25 years, the only ones that come up are the Ravens, the Bucs, and the Ď90 Giants team. Now, most people will say ďhey, what about the Bears?Ē The Bears had a great defenseóthey also had a great offense that year. I believe they were in the top 3 in the league in fact. What most people forget is that the Bears had an even better defense in í86 than í85, but their offensive play dropped off and they washed out of the playoffs because of it.
<o></o>
It should be noted that the í05 Steelers could be put here as well, but Iíd give the refs an assist for that one.
<o></o>
Now, in that same period of time, Troy Aikman won three Super Bowls, the Manning brothers have won two total, Elway won two, and guys like Steve Young (who was an all-world talent 1<sup>st</sup> rounder that the Bucs gave up on) not only won Super Bowls, but went to multiple conference championship games.

7 Super Bowls in the last 15 years have come from quarterbacks drafted #1 overall. Thatís not to say any #1 is a lock, but show me how many other positions drafted #1 overall since 1983 have as many Super Bowl wins to their credit?
<o></o>
Granted, I know that you arenít making the argument that QB isnít important (but others are), but you also have to give me enough leeway to realize that Iím not arguing Stafford because I think that heís the second coming, Iím arguing for Stafford because I see him as far and away the best QB prospect in this class, and hereís why:
<o></o>
So many times when people go back and see bad draft picks, the old axim of ďbring up the tapeĒ is used. Thatís the difference between a guy like <st1>Stafford</st1> and Josh Freeman.<st1>Stafford</st1>'s arm isnít the reason why heís a great prospectóitís one of the reasons. He also has 3 years of experience in the toughest conference in the country, but more importantly he comes from a pro-style offense, shows a good ability to read and recognize coverages, has good mechanics, and very good innate athletic ability.

If you wanted to draw a baseball analogy, heís a five tool player. The only thing that you could degrade him for is the fact that he throws a decent number of picks. But if you look back over the last several years, you will find that many QBs who turned out unbelievably well came from similar situations where they had less talented teams, and were forced to put the ball into tight spaces in order to make up for it.

Now, hereís why Iím arguing this so vociferously now:

Scouts will see Josh Freeman at the combine and sport diamond-cutting wood over his measureables. People wonít go back and look at the tape and find a guy who canít read a defense, constantly makes poor decisions, is an inaccurate passer, and lacks all ability to put touch on his passes. Theyíll see him throw a football 70 yards, and heíll have them at hello.

If he comes out, people will talk about Sam Bradfordís stats, how accurate he was, how many TDís he threw, all the while ignoring the fact that nothing that he has done helps prepare him for the pros. His receivers run wide open, and he never has to make difficult throws, and when heís faced pressure, he hasnít shown an ability to handle it well. Heís a great QB for 7 on 7, but heís in for a rude awakening at the next level.

Now, the reason why Iím arguing like this is because <st1>Stafford</st1>l is the only franchise QB this year. Heís the only guy out of this class that I can see taking a team deep into the playoffs repeatedly. Thatís not something that more than a handful of QBs in this league have done. It should also be said that E. Manning, Roethlisberger, and Rivers were in a phenomenal class, and the í06 class was deep too. Iím not saying we should drop a pick like this on Stafford [I]just because heís a quarterback, Iím arguing that we should drop this pick because not only is he a QB, heís the best QB in the class in a year with a very shallow talent pool, who would be coming to a team that isnít going to be nearly this bad next year and probably wonít be in a good position to have the ďpick of the litterĒ so to speak.
<o></o>
<o>As far as the other QBs are concerned, if I wanted to win the Super Bowl, I would want no part of the following quarterbacks:</o>
<o></o>
<o>Russell</o>
<o>Schaub</o>
<o>Collins</o>
<o>Garrard
</o><o>Delhomme (now)
</o>Garcia/Griese
Campbell
Orton/Grossman
Whoever is in Detroit
Frerotte
Shaun Hill
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck (with what he is now)
Trent Edwards
Chad Pennington


Those are guys you just flat can't win a Super Bowl with unless you have a once in a decade team around them.
<o></o>
<o></o>I know Iíve already used this analogy in this thread, but Iím going to do it again. You have to treat first round QBs like you do betting in poker. They arenít a sure thing, just like a flush draw isnít a sure thing. But if you can call a $100 bet to win a pot that already has $600 dollars in it, you take that bet every time, because even though you are only 4-1 to make the flush on the last card, you get paid off far more if you hit it than if you miss.

We canít just keep checking down to the river, hoping to win every hand with the nuts. You have to be aggressive to win in this league.

:clap:

Darth CarlSatan
11-17-2008, 11:57 PM
It has to be a pass rusher

I don't care whether Matt Stafford, Peyton Manning or John Elway is available when the Chiefs make their first draft pick next year. Unless one of those guys can get after the quarterback, the Chiefs must pass them up in order to get a pass rusher.

They won't make any significant improvement until they find someone who can get after the quarterback. The Chiefs have six sacks through 10 games. That's right. Sixteen players around the league have more than six. The next worst team is Cincinnati with 11. The league average is 21.

Holy Shit; the motherfucker grew a brain.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:01 AM
Holy Shit; the motherfucker grew a brain.

Nah he really didn't.....there are plenty of reasons why what he said is dumb.

Reaper16
11-18-2008, 12:03 AM
Holy Shit; the motherfucker grew a brain.
Boooo.

orange
11-18-2008, 12:03 AM
It looks like Teicher is walking back his "draft a passrusher" idea. From his article posted in the other thread:

"That reality, along with some other factors — the recent play of quarterback Tyler Thigpen is one — has pushed a pass rusher higher among the Chiefs’ offseason needs. It could well be at the top of that list by the time the free-agent signing period begins in March."

Darth CarlSatan
11-18-2008, 12:04 AM
the titans aren't the best team in football, the giants are

and they'd trade Collins for Manning in a freaking heartbeat....

ROFLROFLROFL

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:05 AM
To many people want to keep the Chiefs status quo that's exactly what this is about.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:05 AM
ROFLROFLROFL

Explain to me what's funny about that.....really.

Reaper16
11-18-2008, 12:07 AM
It looks like Teicher is walking back his "draft a passrusher" idea. From his article posted in the other thread:

"That reality, along with some other factors ó the recent play of quarterback Tyler Thigpen is one ó has pushed a pass rusher higher among the Chiefsí offseason needs. It could well be at the top of that list by the time the free-agent signing period begins in March."

I can't beleive some days that Teicher still has a job. His articles offer about zero insight. If it isn't speculation then it is something obvious that any Joe Schmo could have written.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:08 AM
Adam Teicher realizes most of the Chiefs fan base has been conditioned by Carl. What blows my mind is how many people look back at the 90s as a glory period when we didn't even win anything.

Darth CarlSatan
11-18-2008, 12:09 AM
Yeah, I can't WAIT to relive the Vermeil-Era; all offense, no defense, no Championship.

Yeah, that sounds just FAAAAAANTASTICK; Sign My Ass Up!

As long as we get our multi-million dollar clipboard toter; who gives a fuck, right?

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I can't WAIT to relive the Vermeil-Era; all offense, no defense, no Championship.

Yeah, that sounds just FAAAAAANTASTICK; Sign My Ass Up!

As long as we get our multi-million dollar clipboard toter; who gives a fuck, right?

Yea the all defense no offense years were awesome too!

Deberg_1990
11-18-2008, 12:10 AM
What blows my mind is how many people look back at the 90s as a glory period when we didn't even win anything.

Can you blame them really??

Considering this franchises history and long dry spell in the 70's and 80's.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:12 AM
Can you blame them really??

Considering this franchises history and long dry spell in the 70's and 80's.

People act like we were the Cowboys or something. It's absurd.

Also anyone against getting a QB is wanting to build to be a good team that gets beat in the playoffs..Jacksonville, and yes I believe Tennessee will get beat.

Reaper16
11-18-2008, 12:14 AM
lol @ people thinking that the rebuilding process is shorter than a single season.

It's not that hard to figure out. Get the QB if you're in a chance to, draft like the team did last year from 2nd round onward (BPA), and see how the following season goes. Ideally, you won't be in a position to draft the best QB after that season so that you can take that next piece -- LB, DE, whatever.

That was ranty. Point is: this is a multi-year rebuilding process. It makes perfect sense to get the QB as early as possible in the process.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:17 AM
Look at that some logic....you get the QB first because logically if you draft well you won't be shitty enough to have a chance at him again. Not to mention it speeds up your rebuilding process...

Much much easier and faster to build up a defense than to build an offense especially when you need a QB.

Darth CarlSatan
11-18-2008, 12:26 AM
Yea the all defense no offense years were awesome too!

And when, pray tell, was that? Are you talking about the "no offense" days of Marcus Allen?

Give me a fucking break; the offense is putting numbers up, the defense sucks ass outside of red-zone stands, and all you IDIOTS want to talk about is which high-dollar BENCH RIDER should get the millions????

What about Special Teams? Yeah, they're doing great too...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

WAKE THE FUCK UP PEOPLE! You know what I hate about 'Fantasy Football'? It's turned otherwise rational and knowledgeable fans in to FUCKING MORONS, and the majority of you are displaying it's "magical power" left and right in this thread.

And as far as Tennessee V Giants goes; it's called WIN/LOSS. You remember win/loss, yes?
The yardstick by which success is measured, yes?
Jesus Fucking Christ; I'm signing off before my head explodes.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:30 AM
Um the Giants are actually a good offensive team with several good offensive players....I don't see how that's a valid argument they used 2 first round picks and a 3rd to get their QB.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 12:37 AM
And when, pray tell, was that? Are you talking about the "no offense" days of Marcus Allen?


How many playoff games has this team won in history without Len Dawson or Joe Montana?

1? 1991, right. They lost to the Jets in '86, right?

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:40 AM
How many playoff games has this team won in history without Len Dawson or Joe Montana?

1? 1991, right. They lost to the Jets in '86, right?

People really get on my nerves when they completely lose sight of simple points.

The defense is important a pass rush is very important but guess what, without a legit QB your team is going to suck nuts, you're wanting to rebuild into what we were before a team that made the playoffs and lost, what the fuck for?

And I'm really sick and fuckin tired of this Titans shit, they are everyones wet dream in this town because they are built exactly like the 90's Chiefs were, I don't desire to be them because teams like that lose in the playoffs.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:41 AM
Thigpen has done absolutely nothing to convince anyone we shouldn't draft a franchise quarterback. He hasn't even won a fucking game.

Franchise quarterbacks don't underthrow Mark Bradley when he's wide open for an easy TD bomb.

Really?

How can you spout such outright utter fucking BULLSHIT, yet be employed by a football magazine?

Again, REALLY?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:41 AM
If you put a legit QB on Minnesota their a bowl contender even without Jared Allen...

I know people dislike Rivers since he's in the division but he's been pretty damn good this year.

Uh...

Thigpen?

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:43 AM
People really get on my nerves when they completely lose sight of simple points.

The defense is important a pass rush is very important but guess what, without a legit QB your team is going to suck nuts, you're wanting to rebuild into what we were before a team that made the playoffs and lost, what the fuck for?

And I'm really sick and fuckin tired of this Titans shit, they are everyones wet dream in this town because they are built exactly like the 90's Chiefs were, I don't desire to be them because teams like that lose in the playoffs.

As were the '99 Titans.

They'll lose because of a lack of offense, whether it's during the season or the playoffs.

There's no WAY they win the Super Bowl.

Not a chance.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:44 AM
Uh...

Thigpen?

This Thigpen shit really needs to stop, because he's better than the other shit out there doesn't make him awesome.

Running Tyler Thigpen out there as your QB on a good team would get you 8-8, maybe 9-7.

He's not Rich Gannon and I never want to hear that ever again.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 12:48 AM
As were the '99 Titans.

They'll lose because of a lack of offense, whether it's during the season or the playoffs.

There's no WAY they win the Super Bowl.

Not a chance.

Well, if their offense would have scored, they would have won a Super Bowl.

You should also remember that they were the beneficiaries of the second luckiest play in the history of the NFL to even get out of the first round.

And FWIW, A prime McNair, Dyson, Wycheck, Derrick Mason, and Eddie George is a damned nice offensive unit.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:48 AM
This Thigpen shit really needs to stop, because he's better than the other shit out there doesn't make him awesome.

Running Tyler Thigpen out there as your QB on a good team would get you 8-8, maybe 9-7.

He's not Rich Gannon and I never want to hear that ever again.

Well, I think you're out of your fucking mind.

If the Chiefs had anything other than the 32 defense, they'd be 4-5 right now.

If the Vikings had Thigpen, they'd easily be 7-2.

The guy threw 140 passes without an interception while throwing 8 TD's and receiving another.

You're usually pretty good at evaluating talent but you're WAY off base on this one.

There are 25 teams in this league right now that would be going apeshit with Thigpen at QB.

We saw two of the tonight.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:49 AM
Most teams wouldn't run the fucking pistol so their QB could play ok...

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:49 AM
Well, if their offense would have scored, they would have won a Super Bowl.

You should also remember that they were the beneficiaries of the second luckiest play in the history of the NFL to even get out of the first round.

Exactly.

They're not gonna do jackshit in the playoffs.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:50 AM
Most teams wouldn't run the fucking pistol so their QB could play ok...

What the fuck ever.

"Most teams" wouldn't have run the K-Gun like Buffalo and went to four straight Super Bowls.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:52 AM
Running the no huddle is one thing.......

Running every gimmicked out college offense you can think of to try to move the ball is another.....this is the NFL not college the gimmick will not continue to work. That's my biggest issue with thinking he's good right now, the Chiefs are going out of their way to do very gimmicked up stuff, what happens when it's all on film, teams have prepared for it?

It stops working it's why you don't see gimmick offenses in the league, this isn't college.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 12:54 AM
Running the no huddle is one thing.......

Running every gimmicked out college offense you can think of to try to move the ball is another.....this is the NFL not college the gimmick will not continue to work. That's my biggest issue with thinking he's good right now, the Chiefs are going out of their way to do very gimmicked up stuff, what happens when it's all on film, teams have prepared for it?

It stops working it's why you don't see gimmick offenses in the league, this isn't college.

Well so far, no one's stopped this offense but Herm Edwards.

And the defense.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 12:59 AM
They've been bad in 2nd halfs......Thigpen had a very marginal game against the Saints who aren't a good D and were missing both their starting corners.

DaneMcCloud
11-18-2008, 01:05 AM
They've been bad in 2nd halfs......Thigpen had a very marginal game against the Saints who aren't a good D and were missing both their starting corners.

And Bowe and Bradley both had the dropsies.

And LJ should have never have been the starting RB.

And McIntosh couldn't open his ass with both hands, let alone a hole.

And Smith is even worse.

Need I go on?

None of this is Thigpen's fault.

patteeu
11-18-2008, 06:27 AM
Patteeu, for one, clearly came out and said that we should just look for low cost alternatives off the street and late round draft picks, that just doesnít work in this league unless you are extraordinarily lucky. You canít bank on luck to win a league with 31 other participants.

:shake:

I guess I have to correct the record here as this is not true.

1. I said that I would draft a guy who is as close to "can't miss" as they come like Elway or Manning if they were available.

2. Absent such a player, I would look for my QBs elsewhere but didn't even come close to limiting my universe of prospects to "low cost alternatives off the street and late round draft picks". Elsewhere could also include the high priced free agent market for a somewhat seasoned QB with serious upside and a reasonable remaining shelf life (Brett Favre, Matt Hasselback, or even Trent Green), for example. Or draft picks later in the early rounds of the draft (Jay Cutler, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees)

There are lots of places to get a QB other than the top 5 picks of the first round in *this* draft.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 06:39 AM
:shake:

I guess I have to correct the record here as this is not true.

1. I said that I would draft a guy who is as close to "can't miss" as they come like Elway or Manning if they were available.

2. Absent such a player, I would look for my QBs elsewhere but didn't even come close to limiting my universe of prospects to "low cost alternatives off the street and late round draft picks". Elsewhere could also include the high priced free agent market for a somewhat seasoned QB with serious upside and a reasonable remaining shelf life (Brett Favre, Matt Hasselback, or even Trent Green), for example. Or draft picks later in the early rounds of the draft (Jay Cutler, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees)

There are lots of places to get a QB other than the top 5 picks of the first round in *this* draft.

Bullshit.

We could do worse, but that's not it at all.

The way I see it, the Chiefs can either lock themselves into a risky, several-year experiment with a single, high priced, top of the draft QB prospect or they can try to find their QBoTF by bringing in a series of lower cost prospects from the draft and free agency until they strike gold while at the same time addressing the most glaring needs of their football team.

Oh noz!! We could either take a "risk", or we could do it the true fan way, treading water with average QBs while we strive for 9-7 and a first round shit kicking.

Great QBs don't get away in free agency.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 06:49 AM
What was Elway's lifetime record against the Chiefs?

21-12 assuming he played all the games against them when he was active from '83-98.

In other words, fucking dominating.

Chiefnj2
11-18-2008, 06:52 AM
To everyone who thinks you should not under any circumstance pass up on Stafford because he is a "franchise" QB, what exactly is a franchise QB?

patteeu
11-18-2008, 07:04 AM
Bullshit.



Oh noz!! We could either take a "risk", or we could do it the true fan way, treading water with average QBs while we strive for 9-7 and a first round shit kicking.

Great QBs don't get away in free agency.

I made a mistake. When I said "free agency" I was also thinking "trade" (as evidenced by my examples).

I think the major part of our disagreement here is that you seem to believe that Stafford is the kind of Triple-A-rated prospect that Manning and Elway were while I'm not making that assumption. If our team believes he is and they have a chance to draft him, then they should. If not, they shouldn't.

But you have to explain your position relative to the other QBs in this potential draft class. You've trashed both Bradford and Freeman in a previous post so what do you do with the #2 draft pick if Stafford goes #1? Do you still need to take a flyer on a QB because we'll never get this chance again or do you end up accepting the undeniable the wisdom of my position.

Micjones
11-18-2008, 07:09 AM
The guy threw 140 passes without an interception while throwing 8 TD's and receiving another.

Actually it was 162 straight attempts without an interception.

That's effectively 4 or 5 games worth of throws.

Micjones
11-18-2008, 07:13 AM
Running the no huddle is one thing.......

Running every gimmicked out college offense you can think of to try to move the ball is another.....this is the NFL not college the gimmick will not continue to work. That's my biggest issue with thinking he's good right now, the Chiefs are going out of their way to do very gimmicked up stuff, what happens when it's all on film, teams have prepared for it?

It stops working it's why you don't see gimmick offenses in the league, this isn't college.

The Pistol was actually put in place to help Larry Johnson produce within the new system.

Teams are running the Spread in the NFL.
We've been over this Mecca.

Why are you trying so hard to discount what Thigpen's been able to do?

Chiefnj2
11-18-2008, 07:28 AM
The Chiefs tweak the offense which leads to 10+ more points per game, more yards, less INTs and turnovers but yet all of this is bad because some people consider it a gimmick.

Darth CarlSatan
11-18-2008, 08:36 AM
How many playoff games has this team won in history without Len Dawson or Joe Montana?

1? 1991, right. They lost to the Jets in '86, right?

How many times has management benched a play maker for an utterly useless Quarterback, who was on IR for two months, just in time to come back to the starting lineup and lose in the first round of the playoffs?

This franchise, as it stands today, wouldn't know what the fuck to DO with a great Quarterback.

bobbything
11-18-2008, 08:44 AM
I wonder what Teicher views as a pass rusher. Some teams view it as a DE or DT. Some a LB. He's left himself open to many options.

I'll say this, again, we've drafted 6 of the last 8 first-rounders to play either on the front four or back three. And look what good that's done us. Our best player is highly mediocre and injured. And I wouldn't consider him a "pass rusher."

In the 90's, we had a flurry of very, very good "pass rushers" and a slew of journeymen QB's. Lot of good that did us.

I'm all for picking a (young) guy that has tremendous upside and building around him. I don't care how we acquire him; trade, draft, free agency (unlikely), so long as we get him. Is Stafford the answer? I don't know. But I want this goddamn team to take a chance on someone they believe in and build the team around him. If it doesn't work, then awww shucks, we're no worse off than we were with all of the other QB's that failed to win a playoff game.

Basically, there's the camp that wants to build this team through defense, and those who want to build it through a QB. We tried it in the 90's with defense. Call me Barack, I'm ready for a little change.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 08:55 AM
People really get on my nerves when they completely lose sight of simple points.

The defense is important a pass rush is very important but guess what, without a legit QB your team is going to suck nuts, you're wanting to rebuild into what we were before a team that made the playoffs and lost, what the fuck for?

And I'm really sick and fuckin tired of this Titans shit, they are everyones wet dream in this town because they are built exactly like the 90's Chiefs were, I don't desire to be them because teams like that lose in the playoffs.

I've finally figured out why Mecca is so pissy about Tennessee:

He didn't even think they'd make the playoffs...

They'll (Buffalo) take Tennessee's spot from last year, Buffalo is every bit as good as them and the East has a super easy schedule.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4885977&postcount=27

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 08:59 AM
The Pistol was actually put in place to help Larry Johnson produce within the new system.

Teams are running the Spread in the NFL.
We've been over this Mecca.

Why are you trying so hard to discount what Thigpen's been able to do?

Because he's a 7th round pick out of a ridiculously small school.

And giving Thigpen credit blows his theory - that you have to pick a QB in the high 1st to get a successful one - right out of the fucking water.

If Thigpen had been a 1st round pick from a BCS school, he'd have no choice but to give Thigpen credit, since he's outplayed his other man-crush, Matt Ryan over the past 4 weeks.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 09:02 AM
To everyone who thinks you should not under any circumstance pass up on Stafford because he is a "franchise" QB, what exactly is a franchise QB?

And, if I could add to that, why is he the ONLY franchise QB?

Darth CarlSatan
11-18-2008, 09:08 AM
And, if I could add to that, why is he the ONLY franchise QB?

Because he's a 7th round pick out of a ridiculously small school.

And giving Thigpen credit blows his theory - that you have to pick a QB in the high 1st to get a successful one - right out of the fucking water.

If Thigpen had been a 1st round pick from a BCS school, he'd have no choice but to give Thigpen credit, since he's outplayed his other man-crush, Matt Ryan over the past 4 weeks.

Oh baby; crankin' out hits like Motown today! REP!!!!

Mecca
11-18-2008, 01:07 PM
I'm pissy about the Titans because people desire to be them when that isn't a good idea.

If you wanna desire to be something, desire to be the Giants.

Brock
11-18-2008, 01:08 PM
I'm pissy about the Titans because people desire to be them when that isn't a good idea.

If you wanna desire to be something, desire to be the Giants.

There isn't that much difference between the two.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 01:10 PM
There isn't that much difference between the two.

There is, the Giants have drafted much better, they have a QB who will play for them for 10 more years and not an alcoholic journeyman.

They have 3 solid RB's that no higher than a 4th round pick was used on, very good receivers.

Meanwhile the Titans used a 1st and 2 2nds on RB's.

Brock
11-18-2008, 01:12 PM
There is, the Giants have drafted much better, they have a QB who will play for them for 10 more years and not an alcoholic journeyman.

They have 3 solid RB's that no higher than a 4th round pick was used on, very good receivers.

Meanwhile the Titans used a 1st and 2 2nds on RB's.

Aside from the QBs and maybe a receiver, they are basically the same team. I don't care about where the players were drafted, it really isn't relevant to the results to this point.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 01:13 PM
I do, the Giants are setup to be good for a much longer period of time, that's why it matters where guys were drafted.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 05:30 PM
I made a mistake. When I said "free agency" I was also thinking "trade" (as evidenced by my examples).

I think the major part of our disagreement here is that you seem to believe that Stafford is the kind of Triple-A-rated prospect that Manning and Elway were while I'm not making that assumption. If our team believes he is and they have a chance to draft him, then they should. If not, they shouldn't.

But you have to explain your position relative to the other QBs in this potential draft class. You've trashed both Bradford and Freeman in a previous post so what do you do with the #2 draft pick if Stafford goes #1? Do you still need to take a flyer on a QB because we'll never get this chance again or do you end up accepting the undeniable the wisdom of my position.

You do what I said weeks ago, when you were buried in DC, and you take Brian Orakpo.

It's almost like I didn't start a thread about him (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=196400&highlight=orakpo)

As far as your other points are concerned:

1) I never said Stafford was Elway or Manning. I did say that he's the best prospect since Carson Palmer, and that is floor is Jay Cutler. I will stand by that statement, and people can ridicule me accordingly if it turns out to be wrong, but don't put words in my mouth plz.

2) I never said take a QB at all costs. One of the reasons why Stafford is so important to this team is the fact that we are the apogee in the rebuilding process. We won't be this bad next year, and the chances of getting an elite QB prospect are much lower with a pick in the teens than one in the top 3. It's not a matter of Stafford being the end of the world, it's the fact that we need to maximize our odds for success by getting the best player when we are closest to him

3) You are moving the goalposts. Teicher clearly said that the team should draft DE above all else, even a top 5 QB all-time, which is the dumbest argument perhaps ever written down in print.

4) Stafford isn't some Johnny come lately to the draft process. When he was 16 years old, people were saying he'd be the #1 overall pick in the draft.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 05:34 PM
Aside from the QBs and maybe a receiver, they are basically the same team. I don't care about where the players were drafted, it really isn't relevant to the results to this point.

It's very relevant. Most RBs are shot in 5 years. So, half a decade later, when LenDale White is on Celebrity Fit Club, and Chris Johnson is trying to regain his touch, the Titans will be out picks that the Giants used on players with a hell of a lot more staying power--guys like Osi, Kiwanuka, Tuck, etc.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 05:34 PM
You do what I said weeks ago, when you were buried in DC, and you take Brian Orakpo.

It's almost like I didn't start a thread about him (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=196400&highlight=orakpo)

As far as your other points are concerned:

1) I never said Stafford was Elway or Manning. I did say that he's the best prospect since Carson Palmer, and that is floor is Jay Cutler. I will stand by that statement, and people can ridicule me accordingly if it turns out to be wrong, but don't put words in my mouth plz.

2) I never said take a QB at all costs. One of the reasons why Stafford is so important to this team is the fact that we are the apogee in the rebuilding process. We won't be this bad next year, and the chances of getting an elite QB prospect are much lower with a pick in the teens than one in the top 3. It's not a matter of Stafford being the end of the world, it's the fact that we need to maximize our odds for success by getting the best player when we are closest to him

3) You are moving the goalposts. Teicher clearly said that the team should draft DE above all else, even a top 5 QB all-time, which is the dumbest argument perhaps ever written down in print.

4) Stafford isn't some Johnny come lately to the draft process. When he was 16 years old, people were saying he'd be the #1 overall pick in the draft.

Cue OTW throwing out Roethlisberger being taken in the teens, I've already went through this with him.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 05:40 PM
And, if I could add to that, why is he the ONLY franchise QB?

I'm reminded of Potter Stewart's quote about obscenity.

I think I covered why he's the only franchise QB in this thread pretty thoroughly.

Why he's a franchise QB:

Leadership (he's shown this at Georgia)
Ability to read defenses and understand coverages and make adjustments to maximize success (LSU, for one)
Elusiveness and mobility in the pocket to buy receivers extra time
Arm strength
Good mechanics
Accuracy.

the Talking Can
11-18-2008, 05:40 PM
Aside from the QBs and maybe a receiver, they are basically the same team. I don't care about where the players were drafted, it really isn't relevant to the results to this point.

but we can't evaluate this in a vacuum

Eli guarantees the Giants a decade of stability at the most important position on the team...and has already won a title

Collins' performance level is pretty unstable, and you have no idea when he'll lose it...he may not even be the QB next year...and he hasn't won shit yet with the Titans of importance...

the Titans will likely end up chasing vet QBs over the next several years, much like the Marty Chiefs...lots of risk, little stability, little reward in the playoffs usually...

the Giants on the other hand are on cruise control...

i'm much rather be the Giants, and i sure as hell don't want us building another headless football team...let's do it right this time

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 05:41 PM
Cue OTW throwing out Roethlisberger being taken in the teens, I've already went through this with him.

Cue me pointing out that 7 Super Bowls in the last 15 years have been won by #1 overall QBs.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 05:42 PM
Cue OTW throwing out Roethlisberger being taken in the teens, I've already went through this with him.

I have no fucking clue what your talking about, but since it was brought up...

Joe Flacco
Brady Quinn
Jay Cutler
Aaron Rodgers
Trent Edwards
Jason Campbell
Kyle Orton
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Schaub
David Garrard
Drew Brees
Chad Pennington
Marc Bulger
Tom Brady
Matt Hasselbeck
Brett Favre

Off the top of my head, there's HALF of the league's starting QB's.

All taken outside the Top 10, and may taken outside the 1st round.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 05:43 PM
Cue me pointing out that 7 Super Bowls in the last 15 years have been won by #1 overall QBs.

Cue me asking where the majority were drafted?

Mecca
11-18-2008, 05:44 PM
Cue me pointing out that 7 Super Bowls in the last 15 years have been won by #1 overall QBs.

I've honestly yet to figure out this complete fear of the QB position. "It'll cripple our franchise!"

Then we have the people who want to rebuild into being the 90s team that was good but not good enough, alot of these arguments are frankly absurd.

It's like saying you'd rather be the Chiefs of the 90s or the Titans of today than the Cowboys then or the Giants now, it's stupid.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 05:46 PM
I have no fucking clue what your talking about, but since it was brought up...

Joe Flacco
Brady Quinn
Jay Cutler
Aaron Rodgers
Trent Edwards
Jason Campbell
Kyle Orton
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Schaub
David Garrard
Drew Brees
Chad Pennington
Marc Bulger
Tom Brady
Matt Hasselbeck
Brett Favre

Off the top of my head, there's HALF of the league's starting QB's.

All taken outside the Top 10, and may taken outside the 1st round.

And how many of those guys do you think can win a Superbowl.....the answer is a handful at best...

But yes you've thrown the Roethlisberger thing at me a few times when I say we probably won't have a chance at a QB after this because we'll pick to low, just like you threw the cripple the franchise line at me a few times.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 05:46 PM
but we can't evaluate this in a vacuum

Eli guarantees the Giants a decade of stability at the most important position on the team...and has already won a title

Collins' performance level is pretty unstable, and you have no idea when he'll lose it...he may not even be the QB next year...and he hasn't won shit yet with the Titans of importance...

the Titans will likely end up chasing vet QBs over the next several years, much like the Marty Chiefs...lots of risk, little stability, little reward in the playoffs usually...

the Giants on the other hand are on cruise control...

i'm much rather be the Giants, and i sure as hell don't want us building another headless football team...let's do it right this time


Stability? Eli Manning?

ROFL

Yes, he's won a SB.

Trent Dilfer has won a SB.

Eli Manning might be 3rd or 4th on the list of reasons why the Giants won the SB last year, and might repeat this year.

Defense and running game are 1 and 2.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 05:47 PM
Stability? Eli Manning?

ROFL

Yes, he's won a SB.

Trent Dilfer has won a SB.

Eli Manning might be 3rd or 4th on the list of reasons why the Giants won the SB last year, and might repeat this year.

Defense and running game are 1 and 2.

He's alot more stable than Kerry fuckin Collins.

Douche Baggins
11-18-2008, 05:49 PM
Eli Manning sucked last year in the regular season but he won that fucking Super Bowl.

And this year he is playing fantastic football.

People should lay off. He's blossoming.

the Talking Can
11-18-2008, 05:50 PM
Stability? Eli Manning?

ROFL

Yes, he's won a SB.

Trent Dilfer has won a SB.

Eli Manning might be 3rd or 4th on the list of reasons why the Giants won the SB last year, and might repeat this year.

Defense and running game are 1 and 2.

i can't fight this kind of stupid

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 05:50 PM
I've honestly yet to figure out this complete fear of the QB position. "It'll cripple our franchise!"

Then we have the people who want to rebuild into being the 90s team that was good but not good enough, alot of these arguments are frankly absurd.

It's like saying you'd rather be the Chiefs of the 90s or the Titans of today than the Cowboys then or the Giants now, it's stupid.

It's hard to understand something that you're making up, you fucking dolt.

Stafford isn't going to be an option, just like Ryan wasn't last year.

Please, quit fucking whining about it.

I think it's fucking hilarious that you admonish the Titans, while praising the Cowboys.

The Titans are all but a mirror image of the Giants, while the Cowboys are nothing more than a collection of aging all-pros that can't seem to play together - and don't have the defense to win in the playoffs.

Talk about hypocritical...



What has Dallas done to make ANYONE beside yourself think that they are capable of winning the SB? How many times have they fallen flat when it matters most?

the Talking Can
11-18-2008, 05:52 PM
the amount of effort True Fans put into arguing for another decade of the same shitty mediocrity we been suffering for 15 years makes me weep....


15 years of shitty-ness and fans haven't learned a single god damned thing

Mecca
11-18-2008, 05:53 PM
Uh dude I said the Cowboys of the 90s pay a bit closer attention next time ok?

And please the whole premise of this article is that we need a DE above all else, so once again right over your head.

And if you think the Giants and Titans are set up remotely the same I feel for you I really do, but hey call me the dolt.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 05:57 PM
i can't fight this kind of stupid

Yeah, it's absolutely retarded to think that more than a 1/3 of the league's QB's could have won the SB with that team last year.

That level of defense and running game makes things pretty fucking easy on the QB...

Mecca
11-18-2008, 05:58 PM
I think you should tell us how it would cripple the franchise again, that was my favorite line you used.

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 05:58 PM
Uh dude I said the Cowboys of the 90s pay a bit closer attention next time ok?

And please the whole premise of this article is that we need a DE above all else, so once again right over your head.

And if you think the Giants and Titans are set up remotely the same I feel for you I really do, but hey call me the dolt.

Dude, you've been talking about the Cowboys THIS year for the last god-knows-how-long.

Quit the bullshit.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 05:59 PM
Cue me asking where the majority were drafted?

Majority of what?
QBs in NFL history?
QBs who have won the Super Bowl?
Night Elf Mohawks?

Mecca
11-18-2008, 06:00 PM
Dude, you've been talking about the Cowboys THIS year for the last god-knows-how-long.

Quit the bullshit.

I said the Cowboys THEN, go read it, if you want to argue semantics be my guest but you're completely wrong.

Don't bitch at me for your lack of comprehension.

JASONSAUTO
11-18-2008, 06:00 PM
Eli Manning sucked last year in the regular season but he won that fucking Super Bowl.

And this year he is playing fantastic football.

People should lay off. He's blossoming.

but his first few years werent too good, hell id bet that over their 1st 5 starts thiggy has killed eli's #s. whatcha got on that clay?

the Talking Can
11-18-2008, 06:01 PM
Yeah, it's absolutely retarded to think that more than a 1/3 of the league's QB's could have won the SB with that team last year.

That level of defense and running game makes things pretty ****ing easy on the QB...

yeah, actually it is

i'm dealing with reality

you can't win the argument, so have nothing but bizarre hypotheticals

like i said, nothing i can do about your type of stupid

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-18-2008, 06:03 PM
Yeah, it's absolutely retarded to think that more than a 1/3 of the league's QB's could have won the SB with that team last year.

That level of defense and running game makes things pretty fucking easy on the QB...

Yes, more than 1/3 of QBs in the league can have a 6-1 TD/Int ratio in the playoffs and lead their team down the field with two minutes left against the undefeated New England Patriots to win the fucking Super Bowl.

They could also easily shuck that pass rusher and unload that bomb to David Tyree.

the Talking Can
11-18-2008, 06:03 PM
Dude, you've been talking about the Cowboys THIS year for the last god-knows-how-long.

Quit the bullshit.

can you read you fucking moron?

"It's like saying you'd rather be the Chiefs of the 90s or the Titans of today than the Cowboys then or the Giants now, it's stupid."


he was clearly talking about the 90's Cowboys...for fuck sake pay attention

OnTheWarpath58
11-18-2008, 06:03 PM
I think you should tell us how it would cripple the franchise again, that was my favorite line you used.

If they pick a QB based on needs alone, and pick poorly, it absolutely will.

San Francisco.

Houston.

Detroit.

Oakland. (Soon to be)

Cleveland.

Cincinnati. (before Palmer)


Every one of those teams picked who they thought was a franchise guy, only to have it blow up in their face.

Interestingly enough, not one of those teams has made the playoffs since, and now, several years later are still trying to pick up the pieces.

Combined record this year: 13-47.

Douche Baggins
11-18-2008, 06:03 PM
but his first few years werent too good, hell id bet that over their 1st 5 starts thiggy has killed eli's #s. whatcha got on that clay?

Tell you what, dipshit. I'll bet you $100 right now that Tyler Thigpen never wins a playoff game. Man up.

Mecca
11-18-2008, 06:04 PM
Cincy has made the playoffs since the Akili Smith pick....because they drafted another QB with the 1st pick, so there.