What are your opinions of Blackwater Worldwide?

[rrl308]

I was just curious to what people thought about this organization. Good or Bad?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide

[patteeu]

Based on the information available on that webpage, I vote "good".

[Saggysack]

Unfortunately needed

[vailpass]

We couldn't carry on operations without their kind.

[StcChief]

a necessary service.... to bad it is needed.

[Jenson71]

Unsurprising consequence of the commercialization of war in a dying republic.

:evil:

[BigChiefFan]

They are glorified mercenaries.

[Frankie]

They are glorified mercenaries.

No, they are PROTECTED mercenaries.

[jiveturkey]

Sounds like a great business model until the wars ends. Then what do they do?

[Brock]

Sounds like a great business model until the wars ends. Then what do they do?

When does that happen?

[Jenson71]

Sounds like a great business model until the wars ends. Then what do they do?

Rape the women and pillage the town centers.

[penchief]

Very dangerous. They exist mainly for the purpose of operating outside the boundaries. They are ultimately nothing more than mercanaries who are being given taxpayer money at the expense of the nation's military defenses. Unfortunately, that means that they can and probably will be used to fulfill missions that are traditionally under the purview of the U.S. military.

The last thing this country needs at a time when our infrastructure is being bled, our ecomomy looted, and our rights restricted is a rougue military force that is sucking resources away from our national defense while building up its own infrastructure. My gut tells me that's not going to turn out in the best interests of the people.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

It's definately a classic and a good chillin with a beer tune but I prefer China Grove.

[Adept Havelock]

Far below "Mad Mike" Hoare's Fifth Commando on the mercenary coolness scale.

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[ClevelandBronco]

...mercanaries...ecomomy...rougue

Where can I send a check to Blackwater?

[Cannibal]

Where can I send a check to Blackwater?

Maybe you should send that check to an actual member of the US Armed forces. Especially considering they probably only make about 1/10th of the cash those Blackwater boys make.

[ClevelandBronco]

Maybe you should send that check to an actual member of the US Armed forces. Especially considering they probably only make about 1/10th of the cash those Blackwater boys make.

Really? 1/10th? Can you give me a source?

[vailpass]

Sounds like a great business model until the wars ends. Then what do they do?

My uncle owns a security business that provides escort details for business travelers when they go OCONUS to friendly and non-friendly nations.
Some of the upper-level personnel may fit in this or a similar industry. Those with language skills, conflict avoidance training and defense skills.

[vailpass]

Very dangerous. They exist mainly for the purpose of operating outside the boundaries. They are ultimately nothing more than mercanaries who are being given taxpayer money at the expense of the nation's military defenses. Unfortunately, that means that they can and probably will be used to fulfill missions that are traditionally under the purview of the U.S. military.

The last thing this country needs at a time when our infrastructure is being bled, our ecomomy looted, and our rights restricted is a rougue military force that is sucking resources away from our national defense while building up its own infrastructure. My gut tells me that's not going to turn out in the best interests of the people.

Your bitterness is clouding your judgement.
Please tell us what would happen to the people they are assigned to protect if there weren't a security force such as Blackwater in place.

[Adept Havelock]

Your bitterness is clouding your judgement.
Please tell us what would happen to the people they are assigned to protect if there weren't a security force such as Blackwater in place.

Perhaps that money might be funneled into expanding the standing military, so they can be protected by people who we know are loyal first and foremost to their nation.

Historically, the problem with mercenaries, any mercenaries, is they may well be more loyal to whomever writes the larger check than their country.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather see those funds put into expanding the US Military then lining the pockets of some yammerhead like Prince and his private little army. :shrug:

And no, I see no difference between these "security contractors" and mercenaries. A man without his nation's uniform acting as a gun for hire in a war zone is nothing more than a merc.

JMO.

[ClevelandBronco]

Perhaps that money might be funneled into expanding the standing military, so they can be protected by people who we know are loyal first and foremost to their nation.

Historically, the problem with mercenaries, any mercenaries, is they may well be more loyal to whomever writes the larger check than their country.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather see those funds put into expanding the US Military then lining the pockets of some yammerhead like Prince and his private little army. :shrug:

It's a good thing that Blackwater writes pretty big checks.

[Adept Havelock]

It's a good thing that Blackwater writes pretty big checks.

Even you are smart enough to realize it's not who Blackwater (or any other bunch of mercs) writes checks to, but who writes the checks to Blackwater, the Fifth Commando, etc. :rolleyes:

Then again, perhaps you're not. :shrug:




BTW- nice job ignoring the point about those funds being better used to expand/support the US Military directly, instead of lining mercenary pockets.

.

[ClevelandBronco]

Even you are smart enough to realize it's not who Blackwater (or any other bunch of mercs) writes checks to, but who writes the checks to Blackwater, the Fifth Commando, etc. :rolleyes:

Then again, perhaps you're not. :shrug:

Even me?

I can be as smart as you?

No FUCKING way.

[penchief]

Your bitterness is clouding your judgement.
Please tell us what would happen to the people they are assigned to protect if there weren't a security force such as Blackwater in place.

You wrongly assign my concerns for the future of our country to bitterness. I just feel that it is dangerous to use taxpayer money to build up a private army while at the same time depleting the U.S. military whose job is to protect the country.

It would behoove us as a nation to take a look at the bigger picture. Our country's infrastructure (the economy, the military, transportation, education, health care, etc.) is being undermined on a wholesale basis. Somehow I don't think the end result of that (which will be corporate control of everything, including the military) is going to be conducive to individual liberty.

[Adept Havelock]

I just feel that it is dangerous to use taxpayer money to build up a private army while at the same time depleting the U.S. military whose job is to protect the country.


I don't agree with you very often, but in this case I think you're absolutely correct.

Even me?


You're the one who responded as if the problem with mercenaries was whoever the merc outfit paid, instead of who paid the mercenaries. :shrug:

[ClevelandBronco]

BTW- nice job ignoring the point about those funds being better used to expand/support the US Military directly, instead of lining mercenary pockets.

.

I'm fine with it being put in the hands (and wallets) of mercs.

[Adept Havelock]

I'm fine with it being put in the hands (and wallets) of mercs.

For some reason, I'm not surprised you put mercenaries before funding the United States Military. :p

[ClevelandBronco]

You're the one who responded as if the problem with mercenaries was whoever the merc outfit paid, instead of who paid the mercenaries. :shrug:

Big checks to the mercs. I'm all for it.

[ClevelandBronco]

For some reason, I'm not surprised you put mercenaries before funding the United States Military. :p

It's a volunteer force without the restrictions.

What's the problem?

[Adept Havelock]

Big checks to the mercs. I'm all for it.

:rolleyes:

For some reason, I'm not surprised you put mercenaries before funding the United States Military.

It's a volunteer force without the restrictions.

What's the problem?


Historically, the problem with mercenaries, any mercenaries, is they may well be more loyal to whomever writes the larger check than their country.


There is no guarantee that the US Govt. will always be the highest bidder when it comes to mercs. Your approach may be penny-wise, but it's pound-foolish.

I'd much rather invest those funds in the US Military, an organization with unquestionable loyalty.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

They are mercs. We should cut ties with them absolutely ASAP.

FWIW, anyone who believes that terrorists are stateless and deserve no protection under the Geneva convention should think the same about Blackwater, as they are also a stateless entity.

[Jenson71]

Machiavelli warned us about this kind of thing.

[Adept Havelock]

Machiavelli warned us about this kind of thing.

Machiavelli was a very bright fellow.

[ClevelandBronco]

:rolleyes:







There is no guarantee that the US Govt. will always be the highest bidder when it comes to mercs. Your approach may be penny-wise, but it's pound-foolish.

I'd much rather invest those funds in the US Military, an organization of proved loyalty.

And I'd rather not have the restrictions imposed on the U.S. military by the candy asses amongst us. I want the most ruthless bastards available.

[ClevelandBronco]

...FWIW, anyone who believes that terrorists are stateless and deserve no protection under the Geneva convention should think the same about Blackwater, as they are also a stateless entity.

Yep. That's a good thing in this war.

[Adept Havelock]

And I'd rather not have the restrictions imposed on the U.S. military by the candy asses amongst us. I want the most ruthless bastards available.

And when those ruthless bastards turn on you or go to work for a rival nation who outbids you, or your own military is depleted because of the funds you funneled to Mr. Prince's private little army...

Like I said. Your approach is penny wise, and pound foolish.

[ClevelandBronco]

And when those ruthless bastards turn on you or go to work for a rival nation who outbids you, or your own military is depleted because of the funds you funneled to Mr. Prince's private little army...

Like I said. Your approach is penny wise, and pound foolish.

They are free to do that now, and they've been free to do it before. Nothing is stopping them, and we aren't empowering them.

War has always been a free market opportunity.

[Chiefnj2]

Blackwater is capitalism at its finest. I do think that if they continue to obtain large no bid contracts they should come clean with their books. It would be nice to know who else they work for.

[Frankie]

Sounds like a great business model until the wars ends. Then what do they do?

There's always gunrunning and drug trafficking.

[Frankie]

Very dangerous. They exist mainly for the purpose of operating outside the boundaries. They are ultimately nothing more than mercanaries who are being given taxpayer money at the expense of the nation's military defenses. Unfortunately, that means that they can and probably will be used to fulfill missions that are traditionally under the purview of the U.S. military.

The last thing this country needs at a time when our infrastructure is being bled, our ecomomy looted, and our rights restricted is a rougue military force that is sucking resources away from our national defense while building up its own infrastructure. My gut tells me that's not going to turn out in the best interests of the people.

DING DING DIND DING,..... GIVE THE MAN THE PRIZE. The first cerebral reply to the topic.

Rep.

[Frankie]

Your bitterness is clouding your judgement.
Please tell us what would happen to the people they are assigned to protect if there weren't a security force such as Blackwater in place.

Legitimate protection contracts and cart blanch in committing violence are two totally different animals. Bush and Cheney have protected these goons from the law and they are getting away with murder and looting.

[Direckshun]

Unsurprising consequence of the commercialization of war in a dying republic.

:evil:

Ha. That.

[Frankie]

They are mercs. We should cut ties with them absolutely ASAP.

FWIW, anyone who believes that terrorists are stateless and deserve no protection under the Geneva convention should think the same about Blackwater, as they are also a stateless entity.

Rep.

[Bowser]

The founder of Blackwater is named Erik Prince. He is a hardcore Christian fundmentalist, and considers himself to be a modern day Crusader, just like the ones who marched into the Middle East a 1000 years ago.

I thought Blackwater lost a good chunk of their rights/privliges in the middle east some time ago, with all the protests from the Iraqi government?

[Laz]

disgusting

[irishjayhawk]

They are mercs. We should cut ties with them absolutely ASAP.

FWIW, anyone who believes that terrorists are stateless and deserve no protection under the Geneva convention should think the same about Blackwater, as they are also a stateless entity.

I'm with you, but apparently equating the two is the pinnacle of anti-Americanism.

I hate America's lack of empathy.

[ClevelandBronco]

I'm with you, but apparently equating the two is the pinnacle of anti-Americanism.

I hate America's lack of empathy.

Empathy? Please.

You mean to compare Blackwater to Al-Qaeda?

Perhaps I misunderstand you.

[Saggysack]

I got a couple chuckles out of this thread. Thanks for the laugh guys.

[rrl308]

They are mercs. We should cut ties with them absolutely ASAP.

FWIW, anyone who believes that terrorists are stateless and deserve no protection under the Geneva convention should think the same about Blackwater, as they are also a stateless entity.

I actually agree with you for a change.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I believe that the members who committed the massacre in Baghdad should be tried and summarily executed by an international court for war crimes.

[patteeu]

DING DING DIND DING,..... GIVE THE MAN THE PRIZE. The first cerebral reply to the topic.

Rep.

You two should get a room.

[vailpass]

They are mercs. We should cut ties with them absolutely ASAP.

FWIW, anyone who believes that terrorists are stateless and deserve no protection under the Geneva convention should think the same about Blackwater, as they are also a stateless entity.

I admire your willingness to try and discuss a subject about which you know exactly zero.
One day you may fall off the haystack and get out in the world to experience some of the things you read about in books.

[vailpass]

Legitimate protection contracts and cart blanch in committing violence are two totally different animals. Bush and Cheney have protected these goons from the law and they are getting away with murder and looting.

Your views on America and the ME are so objective, it is so enlightening to hear you speak out against the US time and time again.
Face it: that shithole part of the world from which you were spawned is subject to getting slapped around like the stone-age savages they are. Your people suffer from arrested development and are stuck somewhere in the 15th century.
Pray to your god they don't push too hard or go far enough that the US or some other country takes the gloves off.
Bang bang bye bye no more middle east terrorist nut jobs.

[frazod]

Not surprising that the usual suspects are fanboys of Bush's private Gestapo.

[vailpass]

Not surprising that the usual suspects are fanboys of Bush's private Gestapo.

Don't worry fat boy there are real men willing to do the jobs that need to be done.
You just concenterate on being able to lift a bag of flour heavy enough to dust for your wife's donut hole.

[Hog Farmer]

I know people that work for them. It's a very needed source of help for our troops.

[Hog Farmer]

I admire your willingness to try and discuss a subject about which you know exactly zero.
One day you may fall off the haystack and get out in the world to experience some of the things you read about in books.


Does his opinion surprise you seeing how his name is "Hamas"

[frazod]

Don't worry fat boy there are real men willing to do the jobs that need to be done.
You just concenterate on being able to lift a bag of flour heavy enough to dust for your wife's donut hole.

Oh, the invisible man's all butthurt again.

What a stud you are taking swipes at people's wives.

Carry on, Heinrich.

[penchief]

Don't worry fat boy there are real men willing to do the jobs that need to be done.
You just concenterate on being able to lift a bag of flour heavy enough to dust for your wife's donut hole.

I suppose you are one of those "real men?"

If so, what makes you a "real man?"

[vailpass]

I suppose you are one of those "real men?"

If so, what makes you a "real man?"

I was not referring to myself, please don't think I was.

[frazod]

I suppose you are one of those "real men?"

If so, what makes you a "real man?"

Wishing pets and Californians dead? He's hardcore.

I'll bet him and Marlboro Chief work at the same bait shop.

[vailpass]

Wishing pets and Californians dead? He's hardcore.

I'll bet him and Marlboro Chief work at the same bait shop.

I realize you are uneducated but surely you understand it is wrong to lie about people just because you disagree with them.
I have never taken either of the stances you list above.

[frazod]

I realize you are uneducated but surely you understand it is wrong to lie about people just because you disagree with them.
I have never taken either of the stances you list above.

Yeah. I suspect that "burn baby burn" crack you made during in the fire thread was meant to emphasize your concern for all the victims, right?

But you are correct about the pet thing - you've shown disdain for those who dare to miss dead pets. I can only assume hating animals goes hand-in-hand with that life view. Sorry about that.

Sell your shit to those who've been here less than... well, you pretty much announce what a hatefilled miserable prick you are on a daily basis, so I guess this was aimed at n00bs who signed up last night?

[Laz]

tough guy righties just love their Rambo complex, they really do love the "kill'em all and let GOD sort'em out" mentality.


just shows that their religion fervor is a sham because Killing isn't the least bit GODly

[vailpass]

Yeah. I suspect that "burn baby burn" crack you made during in the fire thread was meant to emphasize your concern for all the victims, right?

But you are correct about the pet thing - you've shown disdain for those who dare to miss dead pets. I can only assume hating animals goes hand-in-hand with that life view. Sorry about that.

Sell your shit to those who've been here less than... well, you pretty much announce what a hatefilled miserable prick you are on a daily basis, so I guess this was aimed at n00bs who signed up last night?

You admit you falsely accused me, that you were speculating. Good enough. Now put that donut down and hit the gym Flounder. Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.

[vailpass]

tough guy righties just love their Rambo complex, they really do love the "kill'em all and let GOD sort'em out" mentality.


just shows that their religion fervor is a sham because Killing isn't the least bit GODly

You are reacting emotionally. There is no Rambo complex involved. There is a very real need for well-trained and armed troops who can carry out particular assignments from which our enlisted troops are constrained.

Don't lose sight of the fact we are faced with some very aggressive, hateful and dangerous animals over there who don't have to follow any rules. The animals that use women and childres as shields, who hide in mosques, who act in cowardly fashion every day with the sole objective of harming the US and her people.

[frazod]

You admit you falsely accused me, that you were speculating. Good enough. Now put that donut down and hit the gym Flounder. Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.

Well, what can we do but speculate, since you are such a complete and utter simpering coward that you won't tell us non-existent internet people what you do or who you are? O what a manly man you must be - the hidden sniper, telling everybody how much smarter and cooler and braver and richer you are, but backing it up with..... nothing? Ever?

Whatever your real life problems are - and God, they must be many and horrible, given the way you lash out at strangers in cyberspace in a continuing pathetic attempt to make yourself feel better - I guess they will safely remain hidden.

For some reason I am reminded of that old Simon and Garfunkel song. I am a rock, I am an island....

[vailpass]

Well, what can we do but speculate, since you are such a complete and utter simpering coward that you won't tell us non-existent internet people what you do or who you are? O what a manly man you must be - the hidden sniper, telling everybody how much smarter and cooler and braver and richer you are, but backing it up with..... nothing? Ever?

Whatever your real life problems are - and God, they must be many and horrible, given the way you lash out at strangers in cyberspace in a continuing pathetic attempt to make yourself feel better - I guess they will safely remain hidden.

For some reason I am reminded of that old Simon and Garfunkel song. I am a rock, I am an island....

Again you falsely accuse me of saying something I never said. Please show me where I have said I am rich, to the best of my recollection I have never said anything of the sort.
I consider it gauche beyond belief to discuss personal income.
Perhaps you are thinking of Dane?

For anyone who wants to see the ultimate in pot-calls-kettle-black I present your second paragraph wherein you actually accuse someone of lashing out at people on the internet. Check yourself Flubber.

Dude I have to tell you I'm a little bit weirded out by your dogged attention.

[frazod]

Again you falsely accuse me of saying something I never said. Please show me where I have said I am rich, to the best of my recollection I have never said anything of the sort.
I consider it gauche beyond belief to discuss personal income.
Perhaps you are thinking of Dane?

Dude I have to tell you I'm a little bit weirded out by your dogged attention.

Again, is this aimed at n00bs? How often do you deride others for being poor, uneducated, or otherwise unworthy of the attention you so often heap upon they.... why? Another of life's great mysteries. We all what Dane does. Dane doesn't seem to have a problem being Dane. You, on the other hand, seem to have a huge problem being failpass. And anybody you can aim an anonymous barb at pays the price for it.

[vailpass]

Again, is this aimed at n00bs? How often do you deride others for being poor, uneducated, or otherwise unworthy of the attention you so often heap upon they.... why? Another of life's great mysteries. We all what Dane does. Dane doesn't seem to have a problem being Dane. You, on the other hand, seem to have a huge problem being failpass. And anybody you can aim an anonymous barb at pays the price for it.

Are you with the LifeTime network? For god's sake man.

[frazod]

Are you with the LifeTime network? For god's sake man.

Hide and deflect.

Yes, we get it. Carry on.

[Duck Dog]

tough guy righties just love their Rambo complex, they really do love the "kill'em all and let GOD sort'em out" mentality.


just shows that their religion fervor is a sham because Killing isn't the least bit GODly


And one could respond to this by saying pussy ass lefties aren't men enough to do what needs to be done. But I won't say it, I'll keep this civil despite what's been said and rumored here.

I want to know why the pacifists here think that Americans employed by Blackwater will turn against the USA? It's a ridiculous argument. These employees are from our Armed Forces. They have provided humanitarian aid to Katrina victims. They have sacrificed their own lives to protect our military personnel. They train local and state law enforcement agency's. They provide a service to our government that our Armed Forces are neither equipped to do or trained to do.

Were the pacifists whining about the French Foreign Legion helping the US during the first Gulf War? I doubt it.

[frazod]

And one could respond to this by saying pussy ass lefties aren't men enough to do what needs to be done. But I won't say it, I'll keep this civil despite what's been said and rumored here.

I want to know why the pacifists here think that Americans employed by Blackwater will turn against the USA? It's a ridiculous argument. These employees are from our Armed Forces. They have provided humanitarian aid to Katrina victims. They have sacrificed their own lives to protect our military personnel. They train local and state law enforcement agency's. They provide a service to our government that our Armed Forces are neither equipped to do or trained to do.

Were the pacifists whining about the French Foreign Legion helping the US during the first Gulf War? I doubt it.

Well, let's see - certainly these men are recruited from our Armed Forces and are Americans. Specifically recruited, cherry-picked, right thinking (and by "right thinking," I mean RIGHT thinking) Americans. Sure would be interesting to see a demographic of these "right thinking" troops, who have grown accustomed to operating above and beyond the law, military or otherwise. Yes, I'm sure they'll do what they're told - no matter what that is.

It's who's doing the telling that concerns me. Forgive me for not being entirely convinced that their current masters will just hand the keys over to Obama.

[Duck Dog]

Well, let's see - certainly these men are recruited from our Armed Forces and are Americans. Specifically recruited, cherry-picked, right thinking (and by "right thinking," I mean RIGHT thinking) Americans. Sure would be interesting to see a demographic of these "right thinking" troops, who have grown accustomed to operating above and beyond the law, military or otherwise. Yes, I'm sure they'll do what they're told - no matter what that is.

It's who's doing the telling that concerns me. Forgive me for not being entirely convinced that their current masters will just hand the keys over to Obama.

Fair enough. My tiny bit of knowledge of Blackwater, other what I read, is from a friend of mine. He applied for a job with them and was turned down. He's an Army Ranger who held a 'Secret' security clearance in the military. As much as I know of the guy, his character is outstanding. Anyway he was denied because he had a history of gambling addiction. From that, I gather that they just don't take any gun for hire. There are standards put in place to thwart undesirables.

And for what ever it's worth, the company is owned by Americans on American soil and pay taxes.

I do agree, however that they should never be allowed or it should never be tolerated that they operate outside the law.

[frazod]

I certainly don't blame these guys for moving up if they are selected - God only knows how much more money they'll make as private contractors.

And I understand that there are times when we need clandestine operators. I just prefer them to be actual special forces.

It is unfortunate that we can't simply pay our troops better, especially the elite ones.

[irishjayhawk]

Empathy? Please.

You mean to compare Blackwater to Al-Qaeda?

Perhaps I misunderstand you.

It has more to do with the lack of empathy which is replaced by what Laz said:

tough guy righties just love their Rambo complex, they really do love the "kill'em all and let GOD sort'em out" mentality.



It has to do with our hatred of terrorists and terrorism yet at the same time we don't stop to think that, hey, they may view us as terrorists invading and occupying their land.

[PunkinDrublic]

I believe that the members who committed the massacre in Baghdad should be tried and summarily executed by an international court for war crimes.

I agree these thugs are only making it harder on our troops by pissing off the locals and encouraging them to want to take it out on our military. These war profiteers are the scum of the earth.