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Tribal Warfare
11-24-2008, 03:38 AM
Blame Moe, Larry and Curly for this Chiefs mess (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/905976.html)
By JASON WHITLOCK
The Kansas City Star

There’s no mystery here. Teams lacking an adequate amount of talent eventually collapse under the weight of trying to play perfectly.

Four days before Thanksgiving, inside two-thirds-full Arrowhead Stadium, the Buffalo Bills snapped the back of the Chiefs, thrashing and humiliating the home team 54-31.

There’s no reason to blame Tyler Thigpen, Glenn Dorsey, Tamba Hali or any of the nameless, faceless jerseys masquerading as starting NFL linebackers. It’s not their fault. They didn’t assemble this team.

Carl “Moe” Peterson, Herm “Larry” Edwards and Bill “Curly” Kuharich put together the worst team in Chiefs history, a squad with a two-year, 19-of-20 losing stretch.

For a solid month, the Chiefs feigned competitiveness by avoiding turnovers and penalties. Error-free football allowed the Chiefs to keep games close and fool some of us into believing they were making real progress.

Sunday, against a Buffalo team that had lost four straight, the disgusting truth reared its head like Putin staring down Sarah Palin’s lake house. The Chiefs jumped offside, picked up a personal foul, turned the ball over five times and played like the inexperienced, talent-deficient team they truly are.

The result was a franchise-record, 54-point meltdown that all but ensured Arrowhead will be less than half filled when the Dolphins and Chargers visit later this season.

It also ends the debate about whether the Chiefs are on the right path being blazed by Moe, Larry and Curly.

No way.

You could see in July that they had constructed a roster more capable of finishing 1-15 than 8-8. In fact, when I arrived at training camp, a Chiefs official told me that Herm should be praised if he took this team to a .500 finish.

I laughed out loud and said, “Herm should be coach of the year if this team wins four.”

I’m sure the Chiefs employee thought I was being flip. Allegedly, I’m prone toward bluster. I was dead serious. Without Jared Allen, the defense didn’t have a proven playmaker. On offense, I had no faith in Brodie Croyle, thought the QB depth chart was midmajor, assumed Larry Johnson wouldn’t handle the adversity and figured the offensive line would get exploited.

We have no reason to be surprised. The lone surprise of the season was Kansas City’s 33-19 trouncing of the Denver Broncos. Twenty years from now, football historians will still be trying to determine how these Chiefs won that game convincingly.

This team just isn’t built to win football games. It’s built to be $32 million under the salary cap while Arrowhead Stadium undergoes renovation. The season is a success. We’re getting exactly what Clark Hunt was willing to pay for and what Moe, Larry and Curly could conceive given their operating budget.

That in no way excuses Moe, Larry and Curly. They drafted Glenn Dorsey with the sixth overall pick. He has been completely ineffective. His rookie season has been far worse than Ryan Sims’ rookie season.

We knew the loss of Allen would destroy the Chiefs’ outside pass rush. The theory behind drafting Dorsey was that he would give Kansas City an inside push. He is supposed to disrupt the pocket from the inside. It just hasn’t happened.

Opposing quarterbacks don’t even need to wear a helmet and shoulder pads when playing the Chiefs. Bills coach Dick Jauron so enjoyed playing against KC’s front four that he left his struggling QB, Trent Edwards, in the game well into the fourth quarter just so Edwards could pad his passing stats.

“They kept throwing the football because they wanted to get their quarterback going,” Edwards acknowledged.

Kansas City’s defense is a confidence-builder for opposing quarterbacks. Runners, too. The Bills ran for 171 yards and averaged 4.5 yards per carry.

Dorsey hasn’t helped Kansas City’s run or pass defense.

This is a horrendously bad football team. Lucky for the Chiefs, they play in the equally horrendous AFC West. It’s going to be tough for the Chiefs to win just one more game this season. They get to play the Raiders, Broncos and Chargers again. The Chiefs also have a season-ending date with the Cincinnati Bengals. And the Dolphins are beatable.

Kansas City will win — in my estimation — two games down the stretch. But the inevitable victories will not excuse the game plan that put this roster together.

Tribal Warfare
11-24-2008, 03:45 AM
They drafted Glenn Dorsey with the sixth overall pick. He has been completely ineffective. His rookie season has been far worse than Ryan Sims’ rookie season.


That comment is to the extreme

chasedude
11-24-2008, 03:52 AM
Tell me something I don't know.

Fruit Ninja
11-24-2008, 04:07 AM
That comment is to the extreme

not really, he hasnt played well at all and through 11 games he's made less then a handful of good plays.

kcchiefsus
11-24-2008, 04:34 AM
not really, he hasnt played well at all and through 11 games he's made less then a handful of good plays.

He's still on par with how almost every other rookie DT ever plays. He comes from playing at a level of competition where he can simply out-muscle everybody to the NFL where everybody is as strong or stronger than him. He is facing the same problem as every other young DT. He needs to learn technique and then his game will come. He has the tools to be a dominant DT. Those who are dissapointed in his play are those who expected too much out of him.

Gravedigger
11-24-2008, 04:40 AM
No more DT's with our first round pick. We'll just agree on that right now. Not to mention we had the fifth pick not the sixth, but what can we expect from Witless.

kcchiefsus
11-24-2008, 04:45 AM
No more DT's with our first round pick. We'll just agree on that right now. Not to mention we had the fifth pick not the sixth, but what can we expect from Witless.

Again, why no more DT's in the 1st round? Dorsey is on par with just about any other rookie DT and those who are dissapointed were expecting too much. Were people expecting what Houston got out of Amobi Okoye (5.5 sacks)? Well what a big help he has been this year with 0 sacks and 11 total tackles.

cabletech94
11-24-2008, 06:06 AM
Just think about how much more money the Cheaps would have saved if only they had the 6th as opposed to the 5th.

PhillyChiefFan
11-24-2008, 07:23 AM
To say that Dorsey is ineffective is not fair, is Whitlock really expecting him to completely dominate in the NFL as a rookie? He is on pace to tie if not exceed Warren Sapp's rookie stats.

We have NO pass rush, and other teams know it. I am convinced that even if we do get a few more defensive players in the draft, what good is it going to do when we run an outdated defensive scheme and have completely inept coaching/management.

Everyone on the coaching staff, save Gailey should be fired.

Now, even seasoned fans are waining from this team, if something isn't done by Clark, a lot of people are going to give up on the Herm experiment perminately.

CoMoChief
11-24-2008, 07:26 AM
You can't win period when you cant stop the run (teams avg over 4+ ypc against us) and you can't create a pass rush and the QB passes all over you.

We will still lose every game if Thigpen goes 25/30 350 yds 3 TD/0 INT for the next 5 games. We simply can not win games when the defense is this bad.

PhillyChiefFan
11-24-2008, 07:39 AM
You can't win period when you cant stop the run (teams avg over 4+ ypc against us) and you can't create a pass rush and the QB passes all over you.

We will still lose every game if Thigpen goes 25/30 350 yds 3 TD/0 INT for the next 5 games. We simply can not win games when the defense is this bad.

Exactly. Sure we can score, but we are good enough to score on every drive like in the early part of this decade. Our defense then couldn't stop an opposing team's drive but we just outscored them.

This shows Gunther's ineptitude, he can't hide under the guise of a win, he is exposed as a talentless coach.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 07:39 AM
God, that Dorsey comment was retarded.

He's putting up perfectly acceptable rookie DT stats while being coached by the worst D-Line coach who has ever fucking sullied this franchise, and coordinated by a fucking fool.

Extra Point
11-24-2008, 07:43 AM
Cover-Blew defense. Can't Gunther be called Shemp in all this, too?

Baby Lee
11-24-2008, 07:50 AM
That comment is to the extreme

Didja wax a chump like a candle? Didja?

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 07:52 AM
JWhit is right about Dorsey. When your drafted thaty high, your EXPECTED to produce immediatly.


Dorsey might become somthing eventually, but for now hes been completely ineffective.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 07:55 AM
Didja wax a chump like a candle? Didja?

He definitely rocks a mic like a vandal.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 07:58 AM
They drafted Glenn Dorsey with the sixth overall pick. He has been completely ineffective. His rookie season has been far worse than Ryan Sims’ rookie season.

We knew the loss of Allen would destroy the Chiefs’ outside pass rush. The theory behind drafting Dorsey was that he would give Kansas City an inside push. He is supposed to disrupt the pocket from the inside. It just hasn’t happened.



Wow. Its pretty bad when the pick the entire draft universe praised is determined to be inferior to Ryan Sims. At least Terdell Sands is a starter on a halfway decent defense. This is putrid by anyone's standards.

TEX
11-24-2008, 07:59 AM
This team just isn’t built to win football games. It’s built to be $32 million under the salary cap while Arrowhead Stadium undergoes renovation. The season is a success. We’re getting exactly what Clark Hunt was willing to pay for and what Moe, Larry and Curly could conceive given their operating budget.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Whitlock nailed it. This is thre reason why everyone will be back next season. Clark bought into the deal before hand and gave the Stooges II an excuse.

TEX
11-24-2008, 08:00 AM
JWhit is right about Dorsey. When your drafted thaty high, your EXPECTED to produce immediatly.


Dorsey might become somthing eventually, but for now hes been completely ineffective.


Has as a lot to do with coaching.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 08:02 AM
Wow. Its pretty bad when the pick the entire draft universe praised is determined to be inferior to Ryan Sims. At least Terdell Sands is a starter on a halfway decent defense. This is putrid by anyone's standards.

He's a rookie defensive tackle 11 games into his pro career with a historically bad supporting cast!!

FUCK, fans on this board are stupid.

Chiefnj2
11-24-2008, 08:20 AM
Right now Dorsey sucks. He's not collapsing the pocket, he isn't rushing the QB, he isn't stopping the run. The only reason why his "stats" are comparable to previous DTs, is because the defense sucks and is continuously on the field giving up long drives. He has more opportunities to make a rare play 5 yards downfield.

Messier
11-24-2008, 08:31 AM
Did whitlock forget that Sims rookie season was about 5 games long and he had a total of 5 tackles? If you want to say that Dorsey's rookie season is comparable to Sims' second, and best season of his career then yes that works.

Lonewolf Ed
11-24-2008, 08:41 AM
Cover-Blew defense. Can't Gunther be called Shemp in all this, too?

Nah, he's more like that Joe guy that Moe and Larry found before they hung it up for good. Joe was not in the slightest bit funny.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:44 AM
****, fans on this board are stupid.

You are exibit A.

Brock
11-24-2008, 08:45 AM
You are exibit A.

How's that Dantrell Savage thing working out for you?

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:49 AM
How's that Dantrell Savage thing working out for you?

I stand by it.

Brock
11-24-2008, 08:56 AM
I stand by it.

That's your problem.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:59 AM
That's your problem.

Brock's unfathomable intellect has always presented a formidable challenge to KCJ. I will have to dedicate quality time to answering his clever response.

Brock
11-24-2008, 09:04 AM
Brock's unfathomable intellect has always presented a formidable challenge to KCJ. I will have to dedicate quality time to answering his clever response.

It's always the same thing with you - pick out some longshot project player and tout him even after he's cut and working at a shoe store. If anyone is "Exhibit A" of the typical moron fan - It's you.

CoMoChief
11-24-2008, 09:08 AM
Brock's unfathomable intellect has always presented a formidable challenge to KCJ. I will have to dedicate quality time to answering his clever response.

Wow, way to try and sound like you're smart. :rolleyes:

Darth CarlSatan
11-24-2008, 09:10 AM
Cover-Blew defense. Can't Gunther be called Shemp in all this, too?
ROFL

He's not even "Joe", the 2cnd Curly replacement.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 09:22 AM
I stand by it.

What about Jeff Terrell?
Kris Wilson as a feature back?

You exist on this forum only to show the bottom of the abyss when it comes to fan stupidity.

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 09:59 AM
I still don't understand why people are ripping on Kuharich. Not his fault that Peterson forced him to build a team entirely on draft picks. He was given no money to spend.

I think Kuharich is doing a good job. I can understand hatred for Peterson and Herm. Kuharich doesn't belong in this equation.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 10:09 AM
I still don't understand why people are ripping on Kuharich. Not his fault that Peterson forced him to build a team entirely on draft picks. He was given no money to spend.

I think Kuharich is doing a good job. I can understand hatred for Peterson and Herm. Kuharich doesn't belong in this equation.

He also hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt to stay around. When he's the top of the food chain when it comes to draft picks and you're selecting McBride and Pollard in the second round, something is amiss.

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 10:43 AM
He also hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt to stay around. When he's the top of the food chain when it comes to draft picks and you're selecting McBride and Pollard in the second round, something is amiss.

But you're picking and choosing. I would bet his draft record the past 2 years has been as good if not better than most in the league. His second round picks weren't stellar, but what about his ability to draft in the second day where there is huge bust potential?

The only difference is, if a 2nd round pick in New England busts, nobody notices or cares because the team has so much talent that mistakes are hidden. It's a sad state of affairs when a team demands that 2nd round picks be very good starters. I don't think McBride was a reach. I think he's very good quality depth, which is what most teams hope and expect out of a 2nd round pick.

The draft only carries one guarantee (first round) and you can only hope to get 1, 2, or 3 more quality starters, if you're lucky. While he may have whiffed on McBride, he hit a home run on Bowe, Albert, Carr, Flowers, Charles, skimmed the junk pile to find Mark Bradley, Connor Barth, Tyler Thigpen, and Mike Cox, and hit a pretty good shot on Page, Turk, and Tank.

Personnel decisions are not the problem in KC. Nor do I think are roster decisions. The problem is poor X's and O's that aren't using our talent correctly, poor motivation of our defensive players, poor gameday decisions, and the fact that this roster was so beat-up that we are asking second day draft picks to start. Never has a personnel guy like Kuharich been asked to do so much with so little. Peterson didn't give him ANY money to spend. And he left him with a roster full of old farts and a bunch of complete reject players. And he expected to fill a 53-man roster with that sad sack of misfits?

Not everyone in KC's front office deserves to go. Kuharich and Cook have done their job. A good chunk of everyone else can take a hike.

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 10:45 AM
Just clean the whole damn house let the new guy bring in his own people. Dont try to fit puzzle pieces that dont fit.

CoMoChief
11-24-2008, 12:49 PM
We need Eric Hicks, its that simple.

Papi
11-24-2008, 01:14 PM
Kansas City will win — in my estimation — two games down the stretch. But the inevitable victories will not excuse the game plan that put this roster together.

This is the part that jumped out at me the most and no one has commented on it! We might just sneak past the Raiders but the safe money is against the Chiefs the rest of the season

raybec 4
11-24-2008, 01:21 PM
But you're picking and choosing. I would bet his draft record the past 2 years has been as good if not better than most in the league. His second round picks weren't stellar, but what about his ability to draft in the second day where there is huge bust potential?

The only difference is, if a 2nd round pick in New England busts, nobody notices or cares because the team has so much talent that mistakes are hidden. It's a sad state of affairs when a team demands that 2nd round picks be very good starters. I don't think McBride was a reach. I think he's very good quality depth, which is what most teams hope and expect out of a 2nd round pick.
The draft only carries one guarantee (first round) and you can only hope to get 1, 2, or 3 more quality starters, if you're lucky. While he may have whiffed on McBride, he hit a home run on Bowe, Albert, Carr, Flowers, Charles, skimmed the junk pile to find Mark Bradley, Connor Barth, Tyler Thigpen, and Mike Cox, and hit a pretty good shot on Page, Turk, and Tank.

Personnel decisions are not the problem in KC. Nor do I think are roster decisions. The problem is poor X's and O's that aren't using our talent correctly, poor motivation of our defensive players, poor gameday decisions, and the fact that this roster was so beat-up that we are asking second day draft picks to start. Never has a personnel guy like Kuharich been asked to do so much with so little. Peterson didn't give him ANY money to spend. And he left him with a roster full of old farts and a bunch of complete reject players. And he expected to fill a 53-man roster with that sad sack of misfits?

Not everyone in KC's front office deserves to go. Kuharich and Cook have done their job. A good chunk of everyone else can take a hike.

That is not even close to being accurate. Teams had better expect quality starters from the second round. Or is your stance that all 22 starters should come out of the first round? Teams have to get starters out of second and third round guys or they are going to end up 1-10 with Herman fucking Edwards running the show.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:34 PM
Turk McBride is a complete scrub, he's an oversized end with no pass rush, if someone can tell me how that contributes to a defense other than a backup that plays 15 snaps a game in certain run downs I'd love to know.

The Bad Guy
11-24-2008, 01:38 PM
Chiefzilla,

Please stop posting. Every post shows how much of a complete idiot you are.

Turk McBride a good player? Since fucking when? Teams get quality starters out of 2nd round picks. You get depth in the 4th, 5th and 6th rounds.

Turk McBride is a fringe player on most 53-man rosters.

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 01:38 PM
Turk McBride is a complete scrub, he's an oversized end with no pass rush, if someone can tell me how that contributes to a defense other than a backup that plays 15 snaps a game in certain run downs I'd love to know.

Backup rush DT.

The Bad Guy
11-24-2008, 01:39 PM
You know what Turk McBride is good at?

Hitting the QB about 30 seconds after he releases the ball.

bobbything
11-24-2008, 01:40 PM
I love how one of the excuses for Dorsey's lack of effectiveness is that he "just needs to learn proper technique." It's great to hear that a 1st round draft pick, in (probably) 15 years of playing football, still hasn't mastered that pesky thing called "technique" that oh-so many players at this level lack.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:40 PM
You know what Turk McBride is good at?

Hitting the QB about 30 seconds after he releases the ball.

I was about to say, I love having a player on the team that gets more roughing the passer penalties than sacks.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:41 PM
I love how one of the excuses for Dorsey's lack of effectiveness is that he "just needs to learn proper technique." It's great to hear that a 1st round draft pick, in (probably) 15 years of playing football, still hasn't mastered that pesky thing called "technique" that oh-so many players at this level lack.

Alot of college players don't have great technique know why? When you can just lineup and physically dominate the person across from you, you don't really need it, to physically dominate in the NFL you have to be such a freak that there aren't words for it because everyone is that good.

Dorsey just needs to get bigger and stronger, he needs alot of weight room work I don't think he saw many 330lb guards at the college level.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 01:42 PM
Turk McBride, Tamba Hali, and Bernard Pollard are fucking awful football players for where they were drafted.

Herm had four total picks in the first two rounds his first two years and missed badly on 3/4.

That's pathetic, especially when there were people all over this board clamoring for Youboty or Simpson in '06 over Pollard , and Kalil over McBride, lest we forget:

"Tamba Hali?? Motherfuck You Carl!!"

bobbything
11-24-2008, 01:45 PM
Alot of college players don't have great technique know why? When you can just lineup and physically dominate the person across from you, you don't really need it, to physically dominate in the NFL you have to be such a freak that there aren't words for it because everyone is that good.

Dorsey just needs to get bigger and stronger, he needs alot of weight room work I don't think he saw many 330lb guards at the college level.
So, you're saying that he has the technique but not the size or strength?

Brock
11-24-2008, 01:45 PM
"Tamba Hali?? Mother**** You Carl!!"

This turned out to be correct most likely, especially considering Kiwanuka was taken 10 slots later.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:45 PM
Turk McBride, Tamba Hali, and Bernard Pollard are fucking awful football players for where they were drafted.

Herm had four total picks in the first two rounds his first two years and missed badly on 3/4.

That's pathetic, especially when there were people all over this board clamoring for Youboty or Simpson in '06 over Pollard , and Kalil over McBride, lest we forget:

"Tamba Hali?? Motherfuck You Carl!!"

Didn't you take some shit for ripping on those picks...actually I think we all did. Ah well atleast alot of us knew it from day one.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:46 PM
So, you're saying that he has the technique but not the size or strength?

No I'm saying in college he was a physically dominant player in the NFL he's not...he needs to get alot stronger which with an NFL weight program can happen but I question his technique improving with these coaches.

bobbything
11-24-2008, 01:49 PM
No I'm saying in college he was a physically dominant player in the NFL he's not...he needs to get alot stronger which with an NFL weight program can happen but I question his technique improving with these coaches.
Well, judging from the assessment from people in the media (the so-called draft experts) and the armchair experts in here, Dorsey lacks the size, strength, and technique right now. Which makes me wonder why he was labeled as an "immediate impact" player.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 01:49 PM
Dorsey needs better footwork, he needs to stop dropping his head and trying to bullrush through a guy's hips, and he needs to get in better cardiovascular shape.

It would also help if he had a coach who could teach him the fundamentals of how to use your hands instead of slap fighting.

I fucking hate Tim Krumrie, BTW.

Sure-Oz
11-24-2008, 01:52 PM
I loved Tamba's 1 arm attempt at trent edwards heading to the endzone

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:53 PM
Dorsey needs better footwork, he needs to stop dropping his head and trying to bullrush through a guy's hips, and he needs to get in better cardiovascular shape.

It would also help if he had a coach who could teach him the fundamentals of how to use your hands instead of slap fighting.

I fucking hate Tim Krumrie, BTW.

That slap fight drill is real important isn't it?

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 01:55 PM
FWIW,

Dorsey's negatives:

Negatives: Has a thick frame and while not sloppy, he does lack solid muscle tone, but does compensate with outstanding initial quickness and lower body strength...While he explodes off the snap, he has just marginal speed to make plays in long pursuit (best when shooting the inside gaps rather than try to make plays on the outside)...Has a strong lower body, but he needs to improve his base (gets narrow in his stance), as blockers have had success getting underneath his pads to lock on and wash him out of the play (see 2007 Tulane, Kentucky and Tennessee, and 2006 Tulane and Mississippi State games)...Must do a better job of planting his foot and anchoring vs. double teams (has good hand placement, but needs to counter better at times)...Best when taking angles or shooting gaps (gets too caught up in the battle when taking on isolated blockers at the point of attack)...Lack of ideal size might limit him to one-gap schemes...Generates good penetration, but for some reason, he fails to seal the deal on the quarterback (has only seven pressures in 51 games)...Does not display an array of pass rush moves, but shows good burst on the bull rush..


Coachable flaws that can't be corrected by someone who can't coach.

OnTheWarpath58
11-24-2008, 01:56 PM
It would also help if he had a coach who could teach him the fundamentals of how to use your hands instead of slap fighting.

I fucking hate Tim Krumrie, BTW.

Which is exactly why I'm not looking to crucify Dorsey, Hali, McBride and Tyler just yet.

Have they disappointed based on their draft position?

Absolutely.

But when the only two constants regarding your starting DL are:

a) All picked in the first 3 rounds;

b) All coached by Tim Krumrie;


Then forgive me for being a little more patient before calling them busts.

We've had ONE defensive lineman have ONE great season in the time Krumrie has been the DL coach.

That speaks volumes, IMO.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 01:58 PM
Krumrie had 1 good lineman his entire time in Buffalo too so it fits....

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 02:29 PM
I still don't understand why people are ripping on Kuharich. Not his fault that Peterson forced him to build a team entirely on draft picks. He was given no money to spend.

I think Kuharich is doing a good job. I can understand hatred for Peterson and Herm. Kuharich doesn't belong in this equation.

So you like the next GM, interesting, I hope he proves out to be good.

mlyonsd
11-24-2008, 03:35 PM
I think there were a bunch of planeteers that used to squawk about how ineffective Kawika Mitchell was. And now he has a ring.

I'm more than willing to give Dorsey next year to become dominant.

FringeNC
11-24-2008, 04:26 PM
Which is exactly why I'm not looking to crucify Dorsey, Hali, McBride and Tyler just yet.

Have they disappointed based on their draft position?

Absolutely.

But when the only two constants regarding your starting DL are:

a) All picked in the first 3 rounds;

b) All coached by Tim Krumrie;


Then forgive me for being a little more patient before calling them busts.

We've had ONE defensive lineman have ONE great season in the time Krumrie has been the DL coach.

That speaks volumes, IMO.

Yes. This is exactly right. Saying that they are busts at this time is ridiculous, especially given the coaching staff, but saying that they haven't disappointed given their draft position is homerism. [Although Hali IS approaching bust status.]

Darth CarlSatan
11-24-2008, 04:29 PM
Yes. This is exactly right. Saying that they are busts at this time is ridiculous, especially given the coaching staff, but saying that they haven't disappointed given their draft position is homerism. [Although Hali IS approaching bust status.]

That train is pulling up to the station as I type. Completely unimpressed with that guy.

Fruit Ninja
11-24-2008, 04:29 PM
He's still on par with how almost every other rookie DT ever plays. He comes from playing at a level of competition where he can simply out-muscle everybody to the NFL where everybody is as strong or stronger than him. He is facing the same problem as every other young DT. He needs to learn technique and then his game will come. He has the tools to be a dominant DT. Those who are dissapointed in his play are those who expected too much out of him.

That's NOT what i was talking about. What i was talking about is this year up to this point. He's not been good or even average. He's been getting bitch slapped around. I am not going to say he's a bust or anything, but as of right now. He's not playing any better then Sims did his rookie year thats for damned sure.

Coach
11-24-2008, 05:03 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/SwedeCarlson/Chiefs/Chiefs%20Smack%20or%20Hate/stooges.gif

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 05:48 PM
Chiefzilla,

Please stop posting. Every post shows how much of a complete idiot you are.

Turk McBride a good player? Since ****ing when? Teams get quality starters out of 2nd round picks. You get depth in the 4th, 5th and 6th rounds.

Turk McBride is a fringe player on most 53-man rosters.

And you have an amazing habit of putting words in people's mouths to make your argument sound better.

I didn't say Turk was a good player. I said they did pretty good in picking him up. You act as if picking a late 2nd round draft pick gets you a surefire starter, nevermind that there are only two players out of the next 10 drafted have made any major impact on the teams they play for (Ryan Kalil and Sampson Satele). And neither has lit any fireworks so far.

The statement that Turk is a fringe roster player on other teams is a joke. No team would give up on a player like that in only his 2nd season (first major season of action) for one, and secondly, unlike you, most teams don't cut players just because they don't start. Ryan Denney of the Bills was offered a multi-million dollar contract to serve in a similar role that Turk SHOULD be playing--as a rotational lineman.

Turk McBride has 41 tackles in 9 games, which means that he would finish the season with probably about 75 if he stayed healthy. And you think he would be cut by most teams? Bullshit. McBride would be a huge asset to this team if he was a rotational player in the mold of a Jimmy Wilkerson or a Ryan Denney. He should be a run down DE and a nickel tackle. If you have a stud DE on one end and a rotation of Hali and Turk on the other end, our ends would not be in terrible shape.

I stand by my position that in the late 2nd round, we have seen PRETTY good value out of McBride. I don't agree at all that you can call him a bust just yet.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:50 PM
If you are comparing someone to Ryan Denney that is not something to be excited about...

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 05:52 PM
If you are comparing someone to Ryan Denney that is not something to be excited about...

Shit, I'm sorry. I meant to say Chris Kelsay.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:53 PM
Shit, I'm sorry. I meant to say Chris Kelsay.

I know some Bills fans and for the record they hate Chris Kelsay and Ryan Denney and have wanted the Bills to draft a DEnd for years to pair with Schobel.

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 06:02 PM
I know some Bills fans and for the record they hate Chris Kelsay and Ryan Denney and have wanted the Bills to draft a DEnd for years to pair with Schobel.

It's because fans don't care about players who don't tally up a ton of sacks. Turk, like Kelsay, is not supposed to be a playmaker. He's supposed to be a guy that sets up opportunities for other players to make plays. He can hold his own in the run game and he bruises, batters, and exhausts his linemen so that the person behind him can benefit. Not much different from having a big bruising RB batter up the defense so the quick scatback can run wild against an exhausted defense. I think Turk still makes mistakes, but I've also seen lots of plays where he has just mauled his blocker into the backfield.

The problem is, he's playing as a primary DE when he should be used more rotationally. I still believe that if you rotate Turk and Hali on one end opposite a stud pass rusher, our DE situation will not be that terrible. Hali was a big-time reach, but I don't think you can say that about Turk just yet. Turk will do just fine when he's rotating.

MahiMike
11-24-2008, 07:23 PM
Jags have same problem with their high D-line picks. It's almost like picking a QB at those positions. Crapshoot. Combine that with the players next to them and the schemes, etc. Even the Bucs made Ryan Sims look competent. Haynesworth is in his 3rd or 4th year and just coming into his own. Also, the kid in Houston - Mario someone. Same deal.

milkman
11-24-2008, 10:36 PM
What about Jeff Terrell?
Kris Wilson as a feature back?

You exist on this forum only to show the bottom of the abyss when it comes to fan stupidity.

Donnell Bennett, FTW!

The Bad Guy
11-24-2008, 10:46 PM
And you have an amazing habit of putting words in people's mouths to make your argument sound better.

I didn't say Turk was a good player. I said they did pretty good in picking him up. You act as if picking a late 2nd round draft pick gets you a surefire starter, nevermind that there are only two players out of the next 10 drafted have made any major impact on the teams they play for (Ryan Kalil and Sampson Satele). And neither has lit any fireworks so far.

The statement that Turk is a fringe roster player on other teams is a joke. No team would give up on a player like that in only his 2nd season (first major season of action) for one, and secondly, unlike you, most teams don't cut players just because they don't start. Ryan Denney of the Bills was offered a multi-million dollar contract to serve in a similar role that Turk SHOULD be playing--as a rotational lineman.

Turk McBride has 41 tackles in 9 games, which means that he would finish the season with probably about 75 if he stayed healthy. And you think he would be cut by most teams? Bullshit. McBride would be a huge asset to this team if he was a rotational player in the mold of a Jimmy Wilkerson or a Ryan Denney. He should be a run down DE and a nickel tackle. If you have a stud DE on one end and a rotation of Hali and Turk on the other end, our ends would not be in terrible shape.

I stand by my position that in the late 2nd round, we have seen PRETTY good value out of McBride. I don't agree at all that you can call him a bust just yet.

If you aren't drafting to get a solid starter in the 2nd round you either have:

A) a deep team
B) a stupid GM

I can't believe anyone would say we've gotten any value out of McBride. 41 tackles? You don't say. I must have missed the memo where defensive end tackle stats mean shit. This defense can't get off the field, but leave it to you to praise the tackle stats of a completely non-existant defensive end.

Please take a poll on other websites and see what other fans say about 2nd round players. Do they expect to get a rotational player, or a guy they can plug into the lineup?

Turk McBride will bounce around more than the marbles in your head during his career. I'll even bet 5 years down the road that he's not even in the league.

He's an awful player who can't rush the passer, can't stop the run, and can only hit a QB about 50 seconds late.

You can shove your comparisons to Ryan Denney. If Ryan Denney is your benchmark, you keep lowering the NFL IQ bar.

Carlton Gray was given a multi-million dollar contract to do nothing. I guess we should start judging cornerbacks by his standard.

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 11:55 PM
It's pretty stupid for GMs to draft players who aren't solid starters in the second round. What was I THINKING. What a bunch of morons in Jacksonville, drafting Maurice Jones-Drew to be a RB who can only carry the ball 170 times in a season. What a bunch of morons to draft nickel backs. What a bunch of morons in Tennessee to draft Jason Jones to be a backup to Van den Bosch in the late second round. Bill Parcells is a stupid GM because he went for a backup QB in the 2nd round. The Giants were RETARDED to draft Mattias Kiwanuka in the late first round to back up Strahan and Omienyura. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? IDIOTS!!!!!

Your idea that the late second round is this breeding ground for solid starters is laughable. Nevermind that well over half the teams that picked after the Chiefs in the first round have gotten little to no contribution from their draft picks and that late second round players tend to bust at over a 50% clip.

Bernard Pollard is a bust unless proven otherwise. His only role is to start games. Turk McBride can serve as a role player and still play well over half the snaps, and just as many snaps as a Jones-Drew or a Jamaal Charles or a Justin Tuck or a Mattias Kiwanuka. Speed rushers who weigh less than 260 lbs are drafted all the time to get 8 sacks and complete suck it up against the run--those are rotational linemen too, but I'm sure you'd argue that's a great pick in the 2nd round because sacks are the only thing a DE is supposed to do.

Turk has not lit up the world, but he's a solid value pick in the late 2nd round. His job is not to rush the passer--he's only being asked to because the Chiefs, unlike most teams, only have 2 legit DEs. You can dance around it all you want, but 41 tackles in 9 games is extremely above average for a DE and an indication that he's getting to the ball carrier (unless, you're going to suggest to me that he's making tackles 20 yards downfield). Teams have run toward Hali, who is a huge liability against the run, the tackles have been inconsistent, and the LBs have been horrific at filling in gap control. But I guess it's much easier to pin the blame on everybody.

Turk has done fine as a bookend DE. And if that's his role and he plays it well, he is a good value pick in the late 2nd round.




If you aren't drafting to get a solid starter in the 2nd round you either have:

A) a deep team
B) a stupid GM

I can't believe anyone would say we've gotten any value out of McBride. 41 tackles? You don't say. I must have missed the memo where defensive end tackle stats mean shit. This defense can't get off the field, but leave it to you to praise the tackle stats of a completely non-existant defensive end.

Please take a poll on other websites and see what other fans say about 2nd round players. Do they expect to get a rotational player, or a guy they can plug into the lineup?

Turk McBride will bounce around more than the marbles in your head during his career. I'll even bet 5 years down the road that he's not even in the league.

He's an awful player who can't rush the passer, can't stop the run, and can only hit a QB about 50 seconds late.

You can shove your comparisons to Ryan Denney. If Ryan Denney is your benchmark, you keep lowering the NFL IQ bar.

Carlton Gray was given a multi-million dollar contract to do nothing. I guess we should start judging cornerbacks by his standard.