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KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:10 AM
54-31 is 54-31, there's no way around it. Yet after the shock of the arse whupping dissipates a tad, KCJ found a couple silver linings that could be encouraging signs of a pulse at One Arrowhead Drive. Maybe.

462: highest Chiefs offensive output in net yards of total offense since...? Care to gander?

12.2: highest Chiefs yards-per-carry average since...who knows? That figure is so gaudy it begs a footnote.

11: Tyler Thigpen's TD pass output in last 5 games. Remember, this was a team averaging 12.2 PPG when he took the helm. 13 TDs if you count the ones he rushed for and caught.

As bad as things are (they are very bad), I believe ChannyBall is emerging quietly and with a gradual momentum. No one cares because the pain is so bad right now, but this Chiefs offense is clearly ascendant and Quinn Gray proved he can also move the ball under Chan.

The Chiefs rolled up nearly 500 yards and 31 points holding the ball for just under 25 minutes and converting only 1 third down. I think something really good is happening here, folks. Take away just a couple of those goofy turnovers and the Chiefs may have been in this one in the 4th quarter like the past 4 games. Those are the kind of mistakes we expect the youngest team in the NFL to make with a 2nd year QB in his 6th start ever.

This season has been lost since Halloween, so why all the angst? I see a great young offense about to emerge.

UPDATE:
Last 4 games:
KC is netting 378 yards per game and scoring 24.2 PPG.<!-- / message --><!-- / Jeff Removed Sig -->

WhitiE
11-24-2008, 08:11 AM
i agree. cant wait till next season. maybe we can go .500 : )

the Talking Can
11-24-2008, 08:12 AM
....

Agent V
11-24-2008, 08:13 AM
I've loved the new offense since Chan was unleashed. It's the defense that worries me. We're well on track to destroy our own (and some NFL) defensive records. That's the issue here.

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 08:17 AM
Tyler Thigpen is turning into quite the fantasy football stud.

TEX
11-24-2008, 08:18 AM
I've loved the new offense since Chan was unleashed. It's the defense that worries me. We're well on track to destroy our own (and some NFL) defensive records. That's the issue here.

Herm must be proud since he always talks shit about DV's offensive ones...

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 08:24 AM
Herm must be proud since he always talks shit about DV's offensive ones...


Hes probably thinking we score too fast.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:28 AM
Hes probably thinking we score too fast.

31 points in 25 minutes is pretty impressive. If Charles doesn't fumble or one of those picks isn't handled, this could well have been a barn burner 41-38 type game.

I know, woulda, coulda, shoulda... but this is very much what the '89 Cowboys went through with their young (future HoF) QB in that awful 1-15 season.

C-Mac
11-24-2008, 08:31 AM
Herm must be proud since he always talks shit about DV's offensive ones...

They may be the youngest defensive team in the NFL but at least their the worst.

Frankie
11-24-2008, 08:32 AM
54-31 is 54-31, there's no way around it. Yet after the shock of the arse whupping dissipates a tad, KCJ found a couple silver linings that could be encouraging signs of a pulse at One Arrowhead Drive. Maybe.

462: highest Chiefs offensive output in net yards of total offense since...? Care to gander?

12.2: highest Chiefs yards-per-carry average since...who knows? That figure is so gaudy it begs a footnote.

11: Tyler Thigpen's TD pass output in last 5 games. Remember, this was a team averaging 12.2 PPG when he took the helm. 13 TDs if you count the ones he rushed for and caught.

As bad as things are (they are very bad), I believe ChannyBall is emerging quietly and with a gradual momentum. No one cares because the pain is so bad right now, but this Chiefs offense is clearly ascendant and Quinn Gray proved he can also move the ball under Chan.

The Chiefs rolled up nearly 500 yards and 31 points holding the ball for just under 25 minutes and converting only 1 third down. I think something really good is happening here, folks. Take away just a couple of those goofy turnovers and the Chiefs may have been in this one in the 4th quarter like the past 4 games. Those are the kind of mistakes we expect the youngest team in the NFL to make with a 2nd year QB in his 6th start ever.

This season has been lost since Halloween, so why all the angst? I see a great young offense about to emerge.

There, I knew if we could manage to pull the pastor out of the political column and back on the football one he'd brighten our gloomy day some. I totally agree. This game was not as bad as the score showed. At least not offensively. We have played 4 games this year that were total disasters. This wasn't one of them.

CoMoChief
11-24-2008, 08:35 AM
54-31 is 54-31, there's no way around it. Yet after the shock of the arse whupping dissipates a tad, KCJ found a couple silver linings that could be encouraging signs of a pulse at One Arrowhead Drive. Maybe.

462: highest Chiefs offensive output in net yards of total offense since...? Care to gander?

12.2: highest Chiefs yards-per-carry average since...who knows? That figure is so gaudy it begs a footnote.

11: Tyler Thigpen's TD pass output in last 5 games. Remember, this was a team averaging 12.2 PPG when he took the helm. 13 TDs if you count the ones he rushed for and caught.

As bad as things are (they are very bad), I believe ChannyBall is emerging quietly and with a gradual momentum. No one cares because the pain is so bad right now, but this Chiefs offense is clearly ascendant and Quinn Gray proved he can also move the ball under Chan.

The Chiefs rolled up nearly 500 yards and 31 points holding the ball for just under 25 minutes and converting only 1 third down. I think something really good is happening here, folks. Take away just a couple of those goofy turnovers and the Chiefs may have been in this one in the 4th quarter like the past 4 games. Those are the kind of mistakes we expect the youngest team in the NFL to make with a 2nd year QB in his 6th start ever.

This season has been lost since Halloween, so why all the angst? I see a great young offense about to emerge.

Many of these stats are skewed because we were behind for pretty much the whole game and had to throw a lot. One thing for sure is that we should have ran the ball more in the first half.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:42 AM
There, I knew if we could manage to pull the pastor out of the political column and back on the football one he'd brighten our gloomy day some. I totally agree. This game was not as bad as the score showed. At least not offensively. We have played 4 games this year that were total disasters. This wasn't one of them.

Well Frankie, LOL! The election is over and the Chiefs are back on the front burner with KCJ. I really believe the D can be fixed, or at least the hemorraging stopped. The O is showing great signs of life here - and most of it with a total youth movement that will be around for years to come. Bowe, Cottam, Bradley, Thiggy, Cox, Charles, Albert, etc... - all kids.

CoMoChief
11-24-2008, 08:50 AM
Tyler Thigpen is turning into quite the fantasy football stud.

But but but but, he's not good enough to win games. :rolleyes:

Joe fucking Montana couldnt win any games with this defense. This defense is far worse than the 32 G-Rob defense.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 09:06 AM
But but but but, he's not good enough to win games. :rolleyes:

Joe ****ing Montana couldnt win any games with this defense. This defense is far worse than the 32 G-Rob defense.

Most teams would love to have a 2nd year QB putting up 25 PPG and Thiggy's numbers.

PhillyChiefFan
11-24-2008, 09:13 AM
I'm extremely happy with our Offense, Chan has done a great job with them.

He fit a system around what works for them, and it IS working.

"We can score points, but the other guys just can score more, get over it." - Future Herm Edwards quote.

CoMoChief
11-24-2008, 09:15 AM
Most teams would love to have a 2nd year QB putting up 25 PPG and Thiggy's numbers.

I agree. Thigpen isn't why this team is losing. And for being as young as he is, also shouldnt be counted on to win games yet. I'll take a 2/1 TD/INT ratio anyday as long as the INT don't result in pick-6's or on our half of the field.

The main thing is for Thigpen just not turn the ball over and let the people around him make plays, and for the coaches to put him in positions to win.

Yesterday we complete went away from the running game. IMO LJ should have ran it about 15 more times througout the game. that's coaching, not thigpen.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 09:17 AM
Quinn Gray proved he an move the ball against a prevent defense, which is tantamount to saying, "Quinn Gray proved that he knows how to walk."

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 05:34 PM
I agree. Thigpen isn't why this team is losing. And for being as young as he is, also shouldnt be counted on to win games yet. I'll take a 2/1 TD/INT ratio anyday as long as the INT don't result in pick-6's or on our half of the field.

The main thing is for Thigpen just not turn the ball over and let the people around him make plays, and for the coaches to put him in positions to win.

Yesterday we complete went away from the running game. IMO LJ should have ran it about 15 more times througout the game. that's coaching, not thigpen.

Thigpen is however manning up and taking responsibility for his errors. He's willing to put the team on his shoulders and try to carry it. I think they call that 'leadership'. Gotta love this guy.

Micjones
11-24-2008, 05:40 PM
I've loved the new offense since Chan was unleashed. It's the defense that worries me. We're well on track to destroy our own (and some NFL) defensive records. That's the issue here.

If Herm allowed Gunther the same leeway he's giving Chan we'd see defensive improvements as well.

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 05:43 PM
I know, woulda, coulda, shoulda... but this is very much what the '89 Cowboys went through with their young (future HoF) QB in that awful 1-15 season.

Did you just compare Thigpen with Aikman? :shake:

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:44 PM
I know everyone rails the defense but...the defense before this week was getting turnovers 2,3,4 sometimes in a game and still losing...

This game was over as soon as the pick 6 happened...if you finish + in turnovers and still lose if a team can play you even they'll win easily if you turn it over they'll smoke you.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:45 PM
Did you just compare Thigpen with Aikman? :shake:

He compares to Aikman you know one of the most accurate QB's in NFL history.

Bowser
11-24-2008, 05:45 PM
Thigpen has been a pleasant suprise, but how much of yesterday was Buffalo playing in that "bend but don't break" defense (especially when they starting running away with it) that invites big fantasy numbers?

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:47 PM
Thigpen has been a pleasant suprise, but how much of yesterday was Buffalo playing in that "bend but don't break" defense (especially when they starting running away with it) that invites big fantasy numbers?

Pretty much...some garbage time numbers, like you see at the end of blowouts in basketball.

Bowser
11-24-2008, 05:48 PM
Pretty much...some garbage time numbers, like you see at the end of blowouts in basketball.

Yep, except there was two and a half quarters of garbage time, and we could only get 31 points. lol

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 05:54 PM
Tyler Thigpen is turning into quite the fantasy football stud.

Seriously? I honestly don't know anything about FF.

orange
11-24-2008, 06:01 PM
I think the Chiefs 31 pts might have something to do with the Bills relaxing a little at 40-17. Maybe.

Bowser
11-24-2008, 06:03 PM
I think the Chiefs 31 pts might have something to do with the Bills relaxing a little at 40-17. Maybe.

NO NO THIGPEN IS AIKMAN, JUST YOUNGER AND NOT AS RICH

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 06:03 PM
Seriously? I honestly don't know anything about FF.

Yep. Seriously. I picked him up 3 weeks ago on the waiver wire and started him the past 2.

Here are the points hes gotten in my league since he became starter:

31.25
26.75
36.75
27.75
27.25

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2008, 06:11 PM
If Herm allowed Gunther the same leeway he's giving Chan we'd see defensive improvements as well.

Gun is a part of the problem. Period.

StcChief
11-24-2008, 06:14 PM
Gun is a part of the problem. Period.
we just don't know how much he's Hermcuffed. Agreed his D talent alot of new players, has been a problem, along with injuries and constant new people weekly playing...

he doesn't get a pass as this but Improvement needs to start happening knowing it will take remaining 5 games to even start gelling. and evaluate where we are with each position.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Yea Guns Hermcuffed alright..what was his excuse when Vermiel was here?

All the players he asked for have sucked, bottom line the only time he was ever successful was when he had all world talent all over the field.

StcChief
11-24-2008, 06:20 PM
Yea Guns Hermcuffed alright..what was his excuse when Vermiel was here?

All the players he asked for have sucked, bottom line the only time he was ever successful was when he had all world talent all over the field.
agreed. it takes good players to succeed.... I'm not defending Gun just trying to look at the full picture. He will likely get thrown under the Herm blame bus if things really don't start changinge. We are last on D. Most points given up single game, likely the NFL lack of sack record. Who knows what other worst team records are on the horizon....

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:24 PM
All I'm going to say to you is the D's of the 90s that had DT, Neil, Carter and Hasty could have literally been coordinated by you or me and finished in the top 10.

StcChief
11-24-2008, 06:31 PM
Well all the Arm chair coaches might agree. Same could be said for 85 Bears 2000 Ravens.

bottom line if Hermcuffed with changing players forces more conservative play is it Gun?
If DJ,Flowers,Dorsey,Pollard healthy and making some creative Blitz moves aren't in the mix now..... he's not coaching or really trying to win.

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 06:31 PM
Yep. Seriously. I picked him up 3 weeks ago on the waiver wire and started him the past 2.

Here are the points hes gotten in my league since he became starter:

31.25
26.75
36.75
27.75
27.25

Interesting, I had no idea.

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 06:33 PM
Yea Guns Hermcuffed alright..what was his excuse when Vermiel was here?

All the players he asked for have sucked, bottom line the only time he was ever successful was when he had all world talent all over the field.

Exactly, his resume is what it is. I can't understand why they don't cut bait, and move on now. Why wait?

orange
11-24-2008, 06:36 PM
Yea Guns Hermcuffed alright..what was his excuse when Vermiel was here?


It's obvious, isn't it? Dickcuffed.

StcChief
11-24-2008, 06:38 PM
Exactly, his resume is what it is. I can't understand why they don't cut bait, and move on now. Why wait?yeah. Chiefs mgmt don't like to "admit" error easily. This last game, Last on D, etc will likely
make it obvious Gun can't be the "rebuilding" DC.... cutting bait now? who steps in Herm?

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 06:39 PM
Pretty much...some garbage time numbers, like you see at the end of blowouts in basketball.

So what I hear you saying is that the Bills 'gave' the Chiefs 31.
:rolleyes:

There is a trend in productivity on the offensive side of the ball. Great to see Chiefs 'fans' always in their team's corner.

462 yards and 31 points are 462 yards and 31 points no matter how you slice it. In September NOBODY was predicting ANYTHING close to that and you know it.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:47 PM
The Yards is overstated, the Chiefs put up over 100 yards in the last 2 drives where Buffalo was in prevent and on the last one when the Chiefs ran 2 plays with 30 seconds left after Buffalo kneeled 4 times....I'm guessing here but I'm going to say there's about 120 yards of total fluff in there.

I count 1 touchdown as a garbage time td.

MahiMike
11-24-2008, 07:17 PM
I hear ya. Been scoring quite well on offense. It's coming around. Couple of OL additions and it's top 10 offense next year.

OMG - did I just type that or think it?

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 07:29 PM
I hear ya. Been scoring quite well on offense. It's coming around. Couple of OL additions and it's top 10 offense next year.

OMG - did I just type that or think it?

No, I think you are on the $ Mike. Follow the trajectory of progress and its pointing towards a very dangerous O in 2009 if they can sustain the progress.

Reerun_KC
11-24-2008, 07:33 PM
I hear ya. Been scoring quite well on offense. It's coming around. Couple of OL additions and it's top 10 offense next year.

OMG - did I just type that or think it?

Dammit, I just choked on my beer....

That was priceless my friend, the best joke I heard all day...

Thanks for the laugh...

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 07:34 PM
I know everyone rails the defense but...the defense before this week was getting turnovers 2,3,4 sometimes in a game and still losing...This game was over as soon as the pick 6 happened...if you finish + in turnovers and still lose if a team can play you even they'll win easily if you turn it over they'll smoke you.

you try to act like that's the OFFENSES fault, it's still on the defense because in those games it was practically either turnover or TD.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 07:39 PM
Dammit, I just choked on my beer....

That was priceless my friend, the best joke I heard all day...

Thanks for the laugh...

You can break the top 10 getting about 350 ypg and 25 ppg. We are approaching that now.

Reerun_KC
11-24-2008, 07:43 PM
You can break the top 10 getting about 350 ypg and 25 ppg. We are approaching that now.

Okay KCJohnny....

ROFL

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 07:45 PM
Did you just compare Thigpen with Aikman? :shake:

funny you should go back and look at aikman's first FOUR years better yet i've got it here
1:52.9% comp 1749 yards 9 tds 18 ints 19 sacks 0-11 record
2:56.6 comp 2579 yards 11 tds 18 ints 39 sacks7-8
3:65.3%comp 2754 yards 11 tds 10 ints 32 sacks 7-5
4:63.8% comp3445 yards 23 tds 14 ints 23 sacks 13-3

Now thigpen this year
53.6% comp 1577 yards 13 tds 7 ints 20 sacks we all know his record, but the stats are so far pretty comparable.

ptlyon
11-24-2008, 07:46 PM
blowjob. this is a test, this is only a test.

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 07:54 PM
blowjob. this is a test, this is only a test.

sorry but what is that suppsoed to mean?

Mecca
11-24-2008, 08:03 PM
Can we please stop comparing Tyler Thigpen to guys in the hall of fucking fame?

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:06 PM
Can we please stop comparing Tyler Thigpen to guys in the hall of fucking fame?

who else was he compared to thats a HOFer? and like i said look at the stats, pretty comparable, even you have to admit that.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:06 PM
Okay KCJohnny....

ROFL

Last 4 games:
KC is netting 378 yards per game and scoring 24.2 PPG.

Reerun_KC
11-24-2008, 08:08 PM
Last 4 games:
KC is netting 378 yards per game and scoring 24.2 PPG.

Okay KCJohnny....

ROFL

Mecca
11-24-2008, 08:10 PM
I already explained that there's roughly 120 yards that really didn't mean anything, any yardage picked up with Quinn Gray in was garbage time yards that shouldn't be counted in this "look at our offensive output"

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:12 PM
who else was he compared to thats a HOFer? and like i said look at the stats, pretty comparable, even you have to admit that.

Actually, Thig's numbers are much better than Troy's or Elway's at the same point in their careers.

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:15 PM
I already explained that there's roughly 120 yards that really didn't mean anything, any yardage picked up with Quinn Gray in was garbage time yards that shouldn't be counted in this "look at our offensive output"

so like i asked yesterday: you have enough clout to change official game stats?

Mecca
11-24-2008, 08:16 PM
If you really want to count garbage time stats be my guest...Quinn Gray moved the ball against a prevent with backups in, impressive.

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:17 PM
Actually, Thig's numbers are much better than Troy's or Elway's at the same point in their careers.

some people just dont get it johnny, they will come back with "stats dont matter" then they will throw out stats. they will bag on thigpen then they will blame the coach for the same thing. its crazy.

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:18 PM
If you really want to count garbage time stats be my guest...Quinn Gray moved the ball against a prevent with backups in, impressive.

well if thats the case throw out all stats teams get against our defense. seems as though we always are in garbage time.(even when we're leading)

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-24-2008, 08:19 PM
We got smoked. It is encouraging that the offense is playing much better, but man that was brutal.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 08:20 PM
Are you arguing to argue or being dense no one can really tell me Quinn Gray moving the ball down the field at the end of the game is a great indicator for the offense.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-24-2008, 08:20 PM
some people just dont get it johnny, they will come back with "stats dont matter" then they will throw out stats. they will bag on thigpen then they will blame the coach for the same thing. its crazy.

While I'll agree that Thigpen is playing well right now, it is rather silly to compare him to hall of famers. He could be good, he could be a flash in the pan. Who knows?? He is off to a good start though.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 08:21 PM
While I'll agree that Thigpen is playing well right now, it is rather silly to compare him to hall of famers. He could be good, he could be a flash in the pan. Who knows?? He is off to a good start though.

Thank you for an intelligent take, the Elway Aikman stuff is just laughable at this time.

WilliamTheIrish
11-24-2008, 08:22 PM
54-31 is 54-31, there's no way around it.

You should have stopped right there. Cause the rest is just fluff.

orange
11-24-2008, 08:36 PM
some people just dont get it johnny, they will come back with "stats dont matter" then they will throw out stats. they will bag on thigpen then they will blame the coach for the same thing. its crazy.

Here's a guy who's second year stats were almost identical to Thigpen's - better in some ways.

11 games. 10 starts. 55.9%. 1957 yds. 13 TDs. 7 ints. 87 yds rushing (2 TDs). His offensive line was even more porous than the Chiefs (36 sacks). He also managed to win some games, unlike Thigpen.

I am talking about the ultimate quarterback, of course - the mighty Charlie Batch!

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:36 PM
While I'll agree that Thigpen is playing well right now, it is rather silly to compare him to hall of famers. He could be good, he could be a flash in the pan. Who knows?? He is off to a good start though.

someone else made the comparison i just put up the stats, and thigpen's have been right up to par with his first couple of years

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:37 PM
Here's a guy who's second year stats were almost identical to Thigpen's - better in some ways.

11 games. 10 starts. 55.9%. 1957 yds. 13 TDs. 7 ints. 87 yds rushing (2 TDs). His offensive line was even more porous than the Chiefs (36 sacks). He also managed to win some games, unlike Thigpen.

I am talking about the ultimate quarterback, of course - the mighty Charlie Batch!

so what you are saying is that he could go either way right?

orange
11-24-2008, 08:39 PM
He looks alot more like Batch to me - or pretty much anyone who's not related to him, I would guess.

There was a reason Aikman was drafted #1.

JASONSAUTO
11-24-2008, 08:40 PM
He looks alot more like Batch to me - or pretty much anyone who's not related to him, I would guess.

There was a reason Aikman was drafted #1.

see thats just what it is AN OPINION. just like i have

orange
11-24-2008, 08:42 PM
But your comparing him to Aikman and leaving out the much closer Batch (etc.) comparison is silly.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 08:56 PM
Look, I started the Thigpen/Aikman comparison for one very relevant reason: the '89 Cowboys did a total rebuild around a young QB and finished 1-15.

Sound familiar? That makes the comparison relevant. The HoF stuff is a nice incidental, but the reason I brought up Troy is that his team's D was better and he did have a big college career, and still went 1-15 with less impressive numbers than Thiggy's by a good margin. That bodes well for the '09 Chiefs. It took Dallas 4 years to get to the big dance after that 1-15 rebuild season.

We are probably en route to 1-15 but the offense is ascendant. 378 YPG and 24.2 PPG over the last 4 games when we started out for September averaging something like 265 YPG and 12.5 PPG is significant progress.

No one is arguing that Thigpen is a HoFer. But his numbers on a similar 1-15 type team stack up favorably to Aikman's. Did Charlie Batch put those #s up on a 1-15 team? IRRC he was playing for Detroit when they were making the playoffs under Wayne Fontes. I could be wrong.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 08:57 PM
You do realize the Cowboys used 2 1st round picks on QB's yes?

WilliamTheIrish
11-24-2008, 08:59 PM
All fluff.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 09:02 PM
Here's a guy who's second year stats were almost identical to Thigpen's - better in some ways.

11 games. 10 starts. 55.9%. 1957 yds. 13 TDs. 7 ints. 87 yds rushing (2 TDs). His offensive line was even more porous than the Chiefs (36 sacks). He also managed to win some games, unlike Thigpen.

I am talking about the ultimate quarterback, of course - the mighty Charlie Batch!

Your analysis is irrelevant. Mine is based on 2 QBs in their first year as starters on teams that were rebuilding and won only 1 game. Batch played on the '99 Lions who went to the playoffs (http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule?team=DET&season=1999&seasonType=REG).

Apples and oranges, mr. orange.

orange
11-24-2008, 09:02 PM
The year I posted for Batch (his second) was 1999. Detroit was 8-8. His first year they were 5-11, the year before that 9-7.

Make of that whatever you will. His first year numbers were basically identical except double the rushes and yards.


You're saying Detroit went to the playoffs in 1999 with an 8-8 mark? That would be even more backdoor than Edwards' first year in KC.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 09:05 PM
The year I posted for Batch (his second) was 1999. Detroit was 8-8. His first year they were 5-11, the year before that 9-7.

Make of that whatever you will. His first year numbers were basically identical except double the rushes and yards.

It's only relevant if it compares Thigpen to someone who went on to be great not someone who went on to to be a career backup.

orange
11-24-2008, 09:10 PM
I pulled Batch's name out of a hat, essentially. I just looked for a player with Thigpen's 13td-7int ratio and happened to choose 1999.

You could do the same for any year and find someone comparable - almost all of them mediocrities.

You purposely put up Aikman's name to try to pass Thigpen off as a QB who could win superbowls. You base this on the fact that they both played for 1-win teams. That is basically where the similarity begins and ends.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 09:15 PM
I pulled Batch's name out of a hat, essentially. I just looked for a player with Thigpen's 13td-7int ratio and happened to choose 1999.

You could do the same for any year and find someone comparable - almost all of them mediocrities.

You purposely put up Aikman's name to try to pass Thigpen off as a QB who could win superbowls. You base this on the fact that they both played for 1-win teams. That is basically where the similarity begins and ends.

Not so fast. I haven't made any predictions here. Your comparison is irrelevant because the '99 Lions were in the playoffs and were not in a total rebuild mode like the '89 Cowboys and 2008 Chiefs. Young QBs put in that position have a much harder way to go than those playing on solid, established playoff teams.

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 09:18 PM
You do realize the Cowboys used 2 1st round picks on QB's yes?

Not just first round picks - first overall. Walsh cost them the first overall pick in 1990.

orange
11-24-2008, 09:21 PM
Not so fast. I haven't made any predictions here. Your comparison is irrelevant because the '99 Lions were in the playoffs and were not in a total rebuild mode like the '89 Cowboys and 2008 Chiefs. Young QBs put in that position have a much harder way to go than those playing on solid, established playoff teams.

There were other QBs on 1-15 teams. You didn't mention them. You mentioned Aikman - there is an implied prediction there, or you would have mentioned them all - or at least the best and the worst to give a range.

C'mon now, you're not playing with amateurs here. I know about lying with stats AND politics.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 09:26 PM
There were other QBs on 1-15 teams. You didn't mention them. You mentioned Aikman - there is an implied prediction there, or you would have mentioned them all - or at least the best and the worst to give a range.

C'mon now, you're not playing with amateurs here. I know about lying with stats AND politics.

The '89 Cowboys are a convenient rags-to-riches story in the NFL. Frankly, I haven't followed other teams undergoing a once-in-a-two-decade-occurrance of total housecleaning rebuild around a new young QB. I think the '97(?) Colts did a similar rebuild with Manning, but I can't say for sure. I do know that KC has the most rookies of any NFL team, is the youngest in the league, and that the total rebuild scenario is usually a long term investment in the future.

Feel free to volunteer other 1-15 teams undergoing total rebuilds with young QBs as examples. I'm all ears(eyes).

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 09:32 PM
2001 - Carolina Panthers with Chris Weinke 293/540 2931 11tds 19 int (he acutally won their only game for them)

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 09:37 PM
2001 - Carolina Panthers with Chris Weinke 293/350 2931 11tds 19 int (he acutally won their only game for them)

Don't you mean 193-350?

orange
11-24-2008, 09:51 PM
2000 San Diego Chargers - Jim Harbaugh (they changed QBs in 2001 to Drew Brees)
1980 New Orleans Saints - Guy Benjamin (they changed QBs in 1981 to Archie Manning)*
More I'm sure - in fact I'll flat out bet most one-win teams changed their QB.


I'm not sure I understand your point. Because it is rare for a team with one win to keep their losing QB, that is a reason for the Chiefs to do it? It makes no sense - unless you're saying that Thigpen is Aikman.

*Withdrawn. Manning got most of the action in both seasons. Beware alphabetical order. But I still don't get the point you're trying to make.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 09:53 PM
2000 San Diego Chargers - Jim Harbaugh (they changed QBs in 2001 to Drew Brees)
1980 New Orleans Saints - Guy Benjamin (they changed QBs in 1981 to Archie Manning)
more I'm sure


I'm not sure I understand your point. Because it is rare for a team with one win to keep their losing QB, that is a reason for the Chiefs to do it?

Are all the ones that did the ones that had used a #1 pick on their QB the year before like Dallas?

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 09:56 PM
Are all the ones that did the ones that had used a #1 pick on their QB the year before like Dallas?

The only 1-15 that the #1 pick the year before was the Jets and they took Keyshawn.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 10:01 PM
I'm basically asking is Dallas the only team that started the same QB after going 1-15...

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 10:15 PM
I'm basically asking is Dallas the only team that started the same QB after going 1-15...

Pretty much so. Carolina started freaking Rodney Peete the next year. Jets played Neil O'Donnell the next but he got hurt the year before.

orange
11-24-2008, 10:30 PM
You can go back to my 1980 Saints (corrected above). They still started Manning in 1981.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 10:32 PM
Pretty much so. Carolina started freaking Rodney Peete the next year. Jets played Neil O'Donnell the next but he got hurt the year before.

Exactly. Aikman was part of the project of a total rebuild and a new, unproven QB.

That's what I was getting at Mr. orange.

Thigpen is emerging as a (possible/probable) QBotF in a total rebuild NFL program. They don't come along that often. KC is the youngest team in the NFL with 13+ rookies on the team. Thigpen is a 2nd year player but a first year starter. The Chiefs are in a total rebuild and Thigpen may be the QB of this rebuilding franchise. That makes the comparison relevant. So, stacking up Thigpen's first year starting in a total rebuild 1-11 team against Aikman's first year starting in a total rebuild 1-15 program* and you will see that Thigpen stacks up nicely.

*I doubt the '89 Boys were 30% under the salary cap.

orange
11-24-2008, 10:36 PM
Exactly. Aikman was part of the project of a total rebuild and a new, unproven QB.



If you want to stick to that comparison - Dallas had a plan B after that 1-15 year - Steve Walsh - another #1 draft pick QB - in case Aikman didn't pan out. What is the Chiefs' plan B for 2009?

And we don't have to look very far for another 1-15 team in the middle of a total rebuild, do we? Miami in 2008 replaced their whole 2007 QB committee.

DJ's left nut
11-24-2008, 10:42 PM
Thigpen gaveth and tooketh away in that game.

I was very happy to see him make a few touch passes. We haven't seen him do that much thus far and in this game he made at least 3 passes that I don't think he completes 2 weeks ago. His touch has improved somewhat.

On the other hand, his decision making was worse. Sitting in 342 I said 'shit' as soon as I saw where he was looking when he cocked his arm. It was an interception the whole way, unless he expected the WR to cut the route shorter. It was just awful.

The decisionmaking will come with experience, I'll take those kinds of mistakes if it means that he'll continue to improve his accuracy.

To win at this level I truly think you need to be a 60% guy, Thiggy's got some work to do on that front.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 10:43 PM
The Dallas Cowboys in 1989 didn't have a salary cap...

There are some really good facts here, the only team that went with the same QB, who was the 1st pick, used another 1st pick just to make sure.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 10:53 PM
OK, this is my final attempt.

Bad team.
Total rebuild.
Rebuild around a new young QB both in the single-win season and then subsequent seasons.
That rules out the '08 Dolphins.

Bottom Line: Thigpen is on a very, very bad team that he has made better. When he took over the team was averaging 12.4 ppg. Last 4 games, 24.2 ppg - that's almost double. Last four total offense: 378 ypg. That was an absolute unattainable dream back in September. Its reality now.

orange
11-24-2008, 10:56 PM
The Chiefs play the whole game these days in 2-minute offense. Of course they will score more points if they avoid turnovers. That was Thigpen's best positive - until this week, anyway.

KCJohnny
11-24-2008, 11:02 PM
The Chiefs play the whole game these days in 2-minute offense. Of course they will score more points if they avoid turnovers. That was Thigpen's best positive - until this week, anyway.

Why is it so hard to just admit that he's doing a good job, and a historical plane he's doing better than other QBs in similar straits?

The defenses are in prevent.
The offense is gimmicky.
Its a 2-minute drill system.
Its all Chan.
Big stats are the result of playing come-from-behind.
The dog ate my homework.

I think Tyler is exceeding expectations and has shown improvement. If he continues on this trajectory and the entire O improves with him, I say draft the best defensive player on the board (or deal our #1 pick for a can't miss FA vet).

This D is bad on a biblical level. The decision may already be made for us.

orange
11-24-2008, 11:10 PM
Why is it so hard to just admit that he's doing a good job, and a historical plane he's doing better than other QBs in similar straits?

The defenses are in prevent.
The offense is gimmicky.
Its a 2-minute drill system.
Its all Chan.
Big stats are the result of playing come-from-behind.
The dog ate my homework.



1 - 40 -17 in the third quarter.
2 & 3 - Chiefs 39 passes, 13 runs (4 by QBs).
4 - Look at his numbers without the spread.
5 - Reality bites...
6 - ... and eats.

KCJohnny
11-25-2008, 04:48 AM
1 - 40 -17 in the third quarter.
2 & 3 - Chiefs 39 passes, 13 runs (4 by QBs).
4 - Look at his numbers without the spread.
5 - Reality bites...
6 - ... and eats.

That was one game. Thigpen is a comer, and even the NFL analysts on the networks are saying as much.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-25-2008, 05:05 AM
One oddity that I've noticed about Thigpen is although he has good arm strength, he does not throw a good deep ball. It's an odd phenomenon. He shows really good zip on intermediate throws, but his deep passes almost always sail on him.

KCJohnny
11-25-2008, 07:08 AM
One oddity that I've noticed about Thigpen is although he has good arm strength, he does not throw a good deep ball. It's an odd phenomenon. He shows really good zip on intermediate throws, but his deep passes almost always sail on him.

Elvis Grbac had the best deep passing skill of any Chiefs QB I can remember. Go ahead and flame me, but EG could throw a 50 yd pass right on the money and hit his receivers in stride.

I haven't seen Thiggy throw in person but some of his deep passes (like the one to Mark Bradley for 50 whatever yards) are pretty sharp.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-25-2008, 07:24 AM
Elvis Grbac had the best deep passing skill of any Chiefs QB I can remember. Go ahead and flame me, but EG could throw a 50 yd pass right on the money and hit his receivers in stride.

I haven't seen Thiggy throw in person but some of his deep passes (like the one to Mark Bradley for 50 whatever yards) are pretty sharp.

If you are talking about the one for a TD on Sunday, that ball was underthrown by 5 yards.

KCJohnny
11-25-2008, 07:31 AM
If you are talking about the one for a TD on Sunday, that ball was underthrown by 5 yards.

No it was back when we were all going "Mark WHO...?"

JASONSAUTO
11-25-2008, 08:02 AM
1 - 40 -17 in the third quarter.
2 & 3 - Chiefs 39 passes, 13 runs (4 by QBs).
4 - Look at his numbers without the spread.
5 - Reality bites...
6 - ... and eats.

that stat shows exactly how hamstrung the guy has been, no run support lets the defense key on the pass, you are acting like that helps him.:rolleyes:

kepp
11-25-2008, 08:12 AM
Tyler Thigpen is turning into quite the fantasy football stud.

Yep. I have P. Manning, but I picked up Thigpen just to keep him out of other hands.

orange
11-25-2008, 09:36 AM
that stat shows exactly how hamstrung the guy has been, no run support lets the defense key on the pass, you are acting like that helps him.:rolleyes:

You can't be serious. The spread offense certainly helps him!

That's why EVERY team runs the same offense late in the game when they NEED to score.

It's "high risk, high reward." As I said above, Thigpen's best feature has been keeping away from turnovers, up until last week.

chiefsngop
11-25-2008, 02:57 PM
Yeah, those numbers could be inspiring.

But the Dick V. era is way too fresh in my mind to get excited about a team with just a POTENTIALLY good offense and no defense.

We had a GREAT offense under Dick and a defense that was even better than our current one, and got nowhere with it.

CoMoChief
11-25-2008, 03:18 PM
Yeah, those numbers could be inspiring.

But the Dick V. era is way too fresh in my mind to get excited about a team with just a POTENTIALLY good offense and no defense.

We had a GREAT offense under Dick and a defense that was even better than our current one, and got nowhere with it.

We got a home playoff game. Only to shit our pants defensively and couldnt even force a punt. at least we force more punts now. :doh!:

old_geezer
11-25-2008, 03:42 PM
OK, an old geezer's take. Thigpen has been a pleasant surprise for me so far. He has performed better than expected and made the usual rookie mistakes (growing pains I can live with). He shows promise...................

Now, put him under center like your normal NFL QB operates from. There is no way he (or anyone else) can be successful for the long haul operating in the spread every down. Let's see if he shows the same promise while operating under center. He's had time to adjust and settle down - let's take the diaper off and see what we have.

chiefsngop
11-25-2008, 03:53 PM
We got a home playoff game. Only to shit our pants defensively and couldnt even force a punt. at least we force more punts now. :doh!:

If you're in hopes that I'm going to defend Dick's _efence, well I'm not.

Dick's _efense = puke
Herms' _efense = vomit

My point is that it's hard to get excited about offense when your defense is absolutely atrocious; as we've all seen that movie before.

A good offense loses tons of value when their counterpart is bad.

JASONSAUTO
11-25-2008, 05:17 PM
You can't be serious. The spread offense certainly helps him!
That's why EVERY team runs the same offense late in the game when they NEED to score.

It's "high risk, high reward." As I said above, Thigpen's best feature has been keeping away from turnovers, up until last week.

where did i ever say it didnt? i just said that running the ball 9 times lets the other team key on the pass, which IMO makes what he's done even more impressive

KCJohnny
11-25-2008, 06:55 PM
OK, an old geezer's take. Thigpen has been a pleasant surprise for me so far. He has performed better than expected and made the usual rookie mistakes (growing pains I can live with). He shows promise...................

Now, put him under center like your normal NFL QB operates from. There is no way he (or anyone else) can be successful for the long haul operating in the spread every down. Let's see if he shows the same promise while operating under center. He's had time to adjust and settle down - let's take the diaper off and see what we have.

A fellow old geezer's observations:

1. The spread can work to set up the run (look at NE last year - record setting offense from the spread);

2. Thigpen can learn the art of QBing from the I formation.

The real story here is that Gailey is getting max output from the talent on hand - regardless of the system. Make the system fit the talent, not vice versa (Herm, that goes for the _efense, too - ditch the Cover Who...).