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View Full Version : Chiefs So is this the bottom? Is this what you thought rebuilding would be like?


HemiEd
11-24-2008, 04:34 PM
I see many of you are really tired of the losing, it isn't much fun, is it? In fact, it just plain sucks, and makes it hard to keep the long term picture.

I for one, was vocal about being against the rebuilding, but sure as hell hope it works. The scars were still visible, for me, from my 70s and 80s fandom. But, I have witnessed nothing but failure during my 38 years of watching this team, so what the heck do I know?

So here we go, what do you think?

The Jets took the opposite approach this season, signed a bunch old veterans for big $$$.


If you could trade places with them, would you? Is this what you thought it would be like? What direction should this team take?

Hydrae
11-24-2008, 04:36 PM
I expected to see some form of improvement by now. Sadly it does not appear that I was being reasonable in my expectations.

FringeNC
11-24-2008, 04:37 PM
It's all about who has drafted better the last few years. Whether you are 1-15 or 11-5, you still have the same number of picks. [Obviously, the 1-15 team has better drafting position, but doesn't guarantee anything.]

Who has drafted better -- Edwards or Mangini?

[My point being that just because you sign free-agents doesn't mean you are not rebuilding. You can sign free agents AND draft well, and in the long-run it's all about drafting well.]

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 04:41 PM
I'm not intresting in becoming an 8-8 to 10-6 team. I want the Chiefs to become the Cowboys of the 90s or the 49ers of the 80s. Basically you got to build that from the bottom up. It takes some time but they are on the right track. Herm isnt the guy to win the thing but he can get us the building block pieces by sucking ass.

talastan
11-24-2008, 04:45 PM
This is what I expected. Herm has the right philosophy, now as to whether he is the coach to execute that philosophy that is a different story all together, but the team is heading in the right direction. It'll just take a lot longer than any of us expected IMO.

TinyEvel
11-24-2008, 04:45 PM
I think Clark should cut the weak links pronto and spend some friggen $$$ of that cap space to bring on some vets who can help us win a few more games (minimum of 6 would be nice) and teach the young'ns.

I had no idea that "rebuilding" meant the coaching staff. THe D is just all over the place and the scheme/pay calls/preparednes are junk. We've had flashes of brilliance I bet every one of you was on cloud nine after that opening drive of the Bills game)

I am used to mistakes, but injuries on top of rookies...ouch. We are playing guys who were working at Blockbuster video three weeks ago.
So, my expectation is crap, but that still doesn't help. It still hurts to watch us get creamed like that. QB runs for TWO TDs in one game? Puhlease.

DaneMcCloud
11-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Who has drafted better -- Edwards or Mangini?


Is this a joke?

DaneMcCloud
11-24-2008, 04:53 PM
I expected to see some form of improvement by now. Sadly it does not appear that I was being reasonable in my expectations.

So you don't see any offensive improvement? No improvement in the secondary?

Nowhere?

Woodrow Call
11-24-2008, 04:53 PM
This is pretty much how I thought the season would go. Extremely ugly early on and slowly getting more competitive as the season wore on. Personally I'd keep the philosophy but get rid of those who are implementing it.

So far in the rebulding the Chiefs have found an offense, a QB, a FB, a 2nd WR, a LT, and 3 CBs that I think will be around a long time. It hasn't been alot of fun but it hasn't been a total waste either.

chiefs1111
11-24-2008, 04:55 PM
im not really to surprised though before the season started I didn't think we would lose the Faiders at home again...

TinyEvel
11-24-2008, 04:55 PM
So far in the rebulding the Chiefs have found an offense, a QB, a FB, a 2nd WR, a LT, and 3 CBs that I think will be around a long time. It hasn't been alot of fun but it hasn't been a total waste either.

Even though you're an Xbot I agree with this :clap:

FringeNC
11-24-2008, 05:03 PM
Is this a joke?

No.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-24-2008, 05:05 PM
I think Clark should cut the weak links pronto and spend some friggen $$$ of that cap space to bring on some vets who can help us win a few more games (minimum of 6 would be nice) and teach the young'ns.

I had no idea that "rebuilding" meant the coaching staff. THe D is just all over the place and the scheme/pay calls/preparednes are junk. We've had flashes of brilliance I bet every one of you was on cloud nine after that opening drive of the Bills game)

I am used to mistakes, but injuries on top of rookies...ouch. We are playing guys who were working at Blockbuster video three weeks ago.
So, my expectation is crap, but that still doesn't help. It still hurts to watch us get creamed like that. QB runs for TWO TDs in one game? Puhlease.

Just enough vets to get us into the 6-8 win plateau. Carl would be proud.

DaneMcCloud
11-24-2008, 05:08 PM
No.

First off, is Mangini the GM or player personnel manager? How about Edwards? Is he the GM? Or are they both coaches? Last time I checked, there aren't any men in the NFL with the dual title of GM/Coach.

Secondly, why the fuck do you always ask these questions? Look it up for yourself and decide.

www.nfl.com

The draft history from every team is available.

Why don't you tell us for a change?

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-24-2008, 05:11 PM
Pretty much what I expected. I still would like Carl and Herm gone though, not because I don't understand what rebuilding means but because I don't really believe they're capable of doing it.

ArrowheadSoldier82
11-24-2008, 05:16 PM
First off, is Mangini the GM or player personnel manager? How about Edwards? Is he the GM? Or are they both coaches? Last time I checked, there aren't any men in the NFL with the dual title of GM/Coach.

Secondly, why the **** do you always ask these questions? Look it up for yourself and decide.



The draft history from every team is available.

Why don't you tell us for a change?



Actually I am pretty sure Mike Shanahan is the GM as well as coach of the broncos.

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 05:16 PM
A REAL rebuild is whats going on in Atlanta.

New GM
New head coach
New franchise QB

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 05:38 PM
Actually I am pretty sure Mike Shanahan is the GM as well as coach of the broncos.

I think you are correct. Would you like the Chiefs to take the same path?

el borracho
11-24-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm on board with the general philosophies in place, get younger and build the foundation through the draft but I don't believe Carl, Herm, et al are capable of building a winner (as evidenced by their respective resumes) so, overall, this season is a disappointment.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realize that a large part of my dissatisfaction with this season is the feeling of futility. If we were 1-10 with a new GM and a new HC and all new coordinators I think I would have more patience and hope for the future than I have with these proven losers (Carl and Herm).

Sure-Oz
11-24-2008, 05:40 PM
Nothing will change until Carl's dumbass is fired

the Talking Can
11-24-2008, 05:43 PM
i'm glad we're losing

Bearcat
11-24-2008, 05:48 PM
Oakland, Carolina, Atlanta, and Tennessee aren't games I'd tag as part of the rebuild. Those games fell below 'no expectations', and that's really hard to do.

The last 5 weeks though? Yeah, I'd call it rebuilding... we've lost 4 of 5 in the second half, we've gotten more competitive for the most part and should have won one or two of the last 5, and we've gotten our butts kicked around some. That's rebuilding (along with other things, like incompetent coaching), right?

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:48 PM
Did I expect to lose alot of games...yes....did I expect for some of these guys to be thought of as a great part of our future like they seem to be now..no.

ChiefsCountry
11-24-2008, 05:49 PM
Oakland, Carolina, Atlanta, and Tennessee aren't games I'd tag as part of the rebuild. Those games fell below 'no expectations', and that's really hard to do.


No they are basically in line of rebuilds. You fall flat, then show improvement, then get good.

RJ
11-24-2008, 05:51 PM
Could we stay the course and fire Herm?

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 05:53 PM
did I expect for some of these guys to be thought of as a great part of our future like they seem to be now..no.

Could you explain this statement more?

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:55 PM
Could you explain this statement more?

I think there are alot of guys on this team that won't be on it when the team is good, by the way some posters talk it seems that they don't realize there may be only 10-15 players that will still be here by then....

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 05:56 PM
I think there are alot of guys on this team that won't be on it when the team is good, by the way some posters talk it seems that they don't realize there may be only 10-15 players that will still be here by then....

Im thinking you may be right.

Most of Herms draft picks look like duds and role players.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 05:57 PM
Im thinking you may be right.

Most of Herms draft picks look like duds and role players.

Even some of the guys who aren't awful but just aren't good enough, at this point I don't think Derrick Johnson is worth being given a new contract.

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 05:59 PM
Even some of the guys who aren't awful but just aren't good enough, at this point I don't think Derrick Johnson is worth being given a new contract.


Depends on how much money hes looking to get. He could be another Kawika situation.

A role player who thinks he deserves more $$

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:00 PM
Depends on how much money hes looking to get. He could be another Kawika situation.

A role player who thinks he deserves more $$

I have 0 patience for him and Tamba Hali they've been in the league long enough to have no excuses.

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 06:01 PM
I have 0 patience for him and Tamba Hali they've been in the league long enough to have no excuses.


I agree 100%.

TrickyNicky
11-24-2008, 06:05 PM
And people are so scared to scrap this mess for a 3-4. What has this D gotten us, but completely worse off? You could keep the corners, but honestly, I wouldn't miss any other starters on D.

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 06:07 PM
Could we stay the course and fire Herm?

Well, the Chiefs do have one win, maybe next year he could get rid of that silliness!:)

Fish
11-24-2008, 06:08 PM
Here's a neat list of threads predicting our record before the season started. Interestingly, a few people who were calling for 0-16 or 1-15 are now angry about their prediction coming true...

Some good comments...

Chiefs 0-16 ? Thoughts? (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=185903&highlight=0-16) ( (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=185903&highlight=0-16%28) LMAOPossible Fantasy Sleeper: Tyler ThigpenLMAO)

Three teams could make run at 0-16 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=188253&highlight=0-16)

Chiefs REALISTIC chances this season. (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=188329&highlight=0-16)

Chances of Chiefs going 0-16? with Poll (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=192675&highlight=0-16)

What's your LOWEST acceptable expectation for the Chiefs this season? (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=190608&highlight=0-16)

Phobia
11-24-2008, 06:12 PM
Actually I am pretty sure Mike Shanahan is the GM as well as coach of the broncos.

No. He was but Bowlen has taken most of that power back. MS is VP of Football Ops which is still more than "Head Coach" but it's not quite "GM".

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 06:13 PM
i'm glad we're losing

Well you have been consistent on that. I hope the end justifies the means. I hate losing, hate it.

patteeu
11-24-2008, 06:33 PM
I expected to see some form of improvement by now. Sadly it does not appear that I was being reasonable in my expectations.

I did too, but I still think what was done last offseason was worth doing. We can start adding in the free agent vets next offseason and hopefully be competitive starting next year.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:48 PM
I'd like to know what makes any of you think the Chiefs can sign a big time FA...

Deberg_1990
11-24-2008, 06:51 PM
I'd like to know what makes any of you think the Chiefs can sign a big time FA...

Most free agents only care about $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

The Chiefs have plenty of that, but are they willing to spend it?

patteeu
11-24-2008, 06:51 PM
I'd like to know what makes any of you think the Chiefs can sign a big time FA...

Anyone can sign a big time FA if they have cap space and dollars. The Chiefs don't have a cap problem. Whether they have the will to spend the cash is the only remaining issue.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:52 PM
I just don't see it happening...most of the really big name guys who get out will get offered by the good teams.

orange
11-24-2008, 06:54 PM
That's a thread I've been wanting to start, but I don't know how to make a poll.

"What should the Chiefs do in Free Agency? And will they?"

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 06:54 PM
Anyone can sign a big time FA if they have cap space and dollars. The Chiefs don't have a cap problem. Whether they have the will to spend the cash is the only remaining issue.

For some reason, this brings up memories of Dan Williams, Pat Surtain, Ty Law and Kendrell Bell.

Mecca
11-24-2008, 06:55 PM
This is the Chiefs lets remember, if they have one of the 1st 2 picks don't expect much FA movement due to that contract they'll have to give out.

MahiMike
11-24-2008, 07:10 PM
I don't like this poll. No options for barbequeing Herm and Carl over an open pit.

Anyone that thought this team could rebuild with those 2 at the helm should have season tickets thrust upon them so they have to sit thru the carnage in person...in the cold...

HemiEd
11-24-2008, 07:14 PM
I don't like this poll. No options for barbequeing Herm and Carl over an open pit.

Anyone that thought this team could rebuild with those 2 at the helm should have season tickets thrust upon them so they have to sit thru the carnage in person...in the cold...

Reminds me of a story I heard recently about having Chiefs season tickets in the 80s.

Two tickets were left on the front seat while they were in church.

When arriving back at the car, they noticed a broken window, and now 4 tickets were on the seat.

Hydrae
11-24-2008, 07:16 PM
So you don't see any offensive improvement? No improvement in the secondary?

Nowhere?

I see an improved offense with what everyone around here says is not a viable NFL scheme. If that is a correct sentiment, then we are treading water on offense at best since a different scheme will need to be introduced. In other words, it appears that the progress we are "seeing" is not real, it is temporary at best.

Yes, the secondary is certainly improved but the defense as a whole has not. I am looking more at the overall big picture and I am not seeing much forward motion, IMO. How much of that is due to the injuries and how much is coaching/talent level/etc remains to be seen.

So, overall I am not seeing an improving team as a whole. I might have been able to fool myself into believing there was improvement the last few weeks but yesterday showed that those improvements were ephemeral at best.

Mr. Laz
11-24-2008, 07:19 PM
this is rebuilding with a huge helping of "suck" to go along with it.

rebuilding is what happens when you have to retool the players on your team

suckitude of this level is what happens when your coach/personal/ management stink

Short Leash Hootie
11-24-2008, 07:28 PM
hell fucking no...

Our defense has two corners that LOOK promising, and a DT that we spent a #5 pick on...everything else looks like total shit.

Our offense is the only positive of this season...Bowe and Bradley, Tony Gonzalez is still Tony Gonzalez...Larry looks like Larry but he's still a prick that probably won't be around next year...Albert looks awesome and Waters is getting old, but we still need to rebuild the line and we don't know what we have in Thigpen...

When are we ever going to compete with Herm? It won't happen...we have to start over, from the beginning...hopefully this draft class is as good as everyone says it is and at least the new regime will have something to work with.

We have a defensive minded coaching staff yet we've fielded the worst defense I have ever seen in my entire life of watching football...

It's over. This isn't rebuilding, this is shitty, shitty, shitty coaching/management, period.

Reerun_KC
11-24-2008, 07:30 PM
hell ****ing no...

Our defense has two corners that LOOK promising, and a DT that we spent a #5 pick on...everything else looks like total shit.

Our offense is the only positive of this season...Bowe and Bradley, Tony Gonzalez is still Tony Gonzalez...Larry looks like Larry but he's still a prick that probably won't be around next year...Albert looks awesome and Waters is getting old, but we still need to rebuild the line and we don't know what we have in Thigpen...

When are we ever going to compete with Herm? It won't happen...we have to start over, from the beginning...hopefully this draft class is as good as everyone says it is and at least the new regime will have something to work with.

We have a defensive minded coaching staff yet we've fielded the worst defense I have ever seen in my entire life of watching football...

It's over. This isn't rebuilding, this is shitty, shitty, shitty coaching/management, period.

This!

StcChief
11-24-2008, 07:31 PM
I just though rebuilding would be more new "rookie" players and young NFL FAs. The whole get players by going young for long term. Talent is obvious key to success

the Talking Can
11-24-2008, 07:57 PM
Well you have been consistent on that. I hope the end justifies the means. I hate losing, hate it.

losing is the only chance we have to force Clark to clean house....even a glimmer of mediocrity will allow him to stay the course...

plus, we get better draft picks....we need to keep stocking up on players so that our next coach has something to work with...

and of course, we close to getting a shot at stafford...which is the most important thing, far and away....

WilliamTheIrish
11-24-2008, 08:09 PM
It's pretty much what I thought would happen. I'd be surprised if we win another game. I really think we might flourish if Clark were to kick this entire regime to the curb. But I just don't think it'll happen.

HemiEd
11-25-2008, 08:36 AM
It's pretty much what I thought would happen. I'd be surprised if we win another game. I really think we might flourish if Clark were to kick this entire regime to the curb. But I just don't think it'll happen.

I agree, it needs to happen but it won't.

I do think it is very clear, the defensive side of the ball, will have all new coaches next year. Bye Gunther, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

If Herm has as much success with that replacement, as he has had with Chan, we might just see Herm's contract get extended.

HemiEd running for cover.

Fish
11-25-2008, 10:02 AM
I agree, it needs to happen but it won't.

I do think it is very clear, the defensive side of the ball, will have all new coaches next year. Bye Gunther, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

If Herm has as much success with that replacement, as he has had with Chan, we might just see Herm's contract get extended.

HemiEd running for cover.

I think this assessment is a very likely outcome. Even though Herm doesn't deserve it, I have a feeling they will can Gun&Co. and let Herm handpick replacements and get another shot at the defense.

We're going to need more patience and more booze.......

chiefsngop
11-25-2008, 11:47 AM
Not being a smartass here. Honest question.

With all the caproom we have, why couldn't the chiefs sign some veteran FA players to just short term 1-2 year contracts to help us be competitive DURING the rebuild ?

Even if the FA's didn't pan out, you're not wasting cap space becaue it's just lying there dormant, and if nothing else they'd add some depth so we're not signing guys off the street every week.

If you stayed with short term contracts I don't see how'd that hinder a rebuild ? And I'm not saying we'd play those vets ahead of our project rookies, just in spots where we have no current answers?

With cap room available, how is this not fesible ? As long as we stay with the much needed rebuild ?

blueballs
11-25-2008, 11:50 AM
the players have been purged
now on to the front office
and sidelines

HemiEd
11-25-2008, 11:52 AM
I think this assessment is a very likely outcome. Even though Herm doesn't deserve it, I have a feeling they will can Gun&Co. and let Herm handpick replacements and get another shot at the defense.

We're going to need more patience and more booze.......

yeah, getting rid of Gunther may be all we can realistically hope for at this time. But that darn Tiecher article kind of threw some water on that. But who knows, that might be all BS as well. Or better yet, if Herm stands by Gunther, maybe Clark will jettison the whole bunch.

Not being a smartass here. Honest question.

With all the caproom we have, why couldn't the chiefs sign some veteran FA players to just short term 1-2 year contracts to help us be competitive DURING the rebuild ?

Even if the FA's didn't pan out, you're not wasting cap space becaue it's just lying there dormant, and if nothing else they'd add some depth so we're not signing guys off the street every week.

If you stayed with short term contracts I don't see how'd that hinder a rebuild ? And I'm not saying we'd play those vets ahead of our project rookies, just in spots where we have no current answers?

With cap room available, how is this not fesible ? As long as we stay with the much needed rebuild ?

I think right now they are trying to give the playing time to the youngsters, not a bad move. But losing can become a habit, or people get used to it. We have seen that from this team before.

Jilly
11-25-2008, 11:59 AM
Here's my thoughts on this, for what it's worth...if we were really rebuilding, why not rebuild everything and start completely fresh. We're getting the young players in, but with coaches that are old. Fire Herm, Gunther, (I'm not sure about Gaily yet). Fire Carl. And let's rebuild the freaking thing. Young players, I think, would benefit from fresh coaches, ones that are aware of how these young players have been conditioned and know how to work with that to make them better. I could handle the rebuilding if I saw some progress which is what I would gage the success of this year by, but we are seeing none.

Dylan
11-25-2008, 12:05 PM
So is this the bottom? Is this what you thought rebuilding would be like?

If Herm's your head coach, Yes.

He would like you to believe that is how it is done. Most of the members know differently.

The Chiefs have players -- they just don't have coaches that teach & coach the players and have them prepared on the field. Some of the Giants most explosive players in 2007, did not have a good season in 2006. In fact, the whole team looked bad.

RustShack
11-25-2008, 12:06 PM
Suck it up, the year is almost over. I have a feeling this will be a great offseason!

Otter
11-25-2008, 12:25 PM
The engineers behind the rebuild are incapable of such a feat.

If you're seriously waiting for Carl, Herm and Gunther to produce a Super Bowl win let alone a playoff win I feel sorry for you.

Chiefnj2
11-25-2008, 12:39 PM
You do NOT rebuild with Carl Peterson and/or Herm Edwards. The Chiefs are the worst team in the NFL.

Fish
11-25-2008, 12:41 PM
Not being a smartass here. Honest question.

With all the caproom we have, why couldn't the chiefs sign some veteran FA players to just short term 1-2 year contracts to help us be competitive DURING the rebuild ?

Even if the FA's didn't pan out, you're not wasting cap space becaue it's just lying there dormant, and if nothing else they'd add some depth so we're not signing guys off the street every week.

If you stayed with short term contracts I don't see how'd that hinder a rebuild ? And I'm not saying we'd play those vets ahead of our project rookies, just in spots where we have no current answers?

With cap room available, how is this not fesible ? As long as we stay with the much needed rebuild ?

Because veteran FA players aren't usually interested in signing 1-2 year deals for cheap. They are looking for a good payout and a place to finish their career. Decent veteran FAs don't want to bounce around from team to team with 1 year contracts at the end of their career. Teams will have to overpay and meet high contract demands for decent veteran FAs. And the Chiefs are cheap when it comes to signing vets.

patteeu
11-25-2008, 12:51 PM
Because veteran FA players aren't usually interested in signing 1-2 year deals for cheap. They are looking for a good payout and a place to finish their career. Decent veteran FAs don't want to bounce around from team to team with 1 year contracts at the end of their career. Teams will have to overpay and meet high contract demands for decent veteran FAs. And the Chiefs are cheap when it comes to signing vets.

That was my original thought when I read his post, but the truth is that a vet will take a short term deal over a long term deal if it has the same guaranteed money up front. Because chiefsngop mentioned the fact that the Chiefs have a lot of cap room available, I assumed he was talking about doing something like offering an unusually high signing bonus for a 1 or 2 year deal so as to make that deal competitive with any longer term offers the player might be getting. For that matter, the Chiefs could make the long term offer and simply cut the player after a year or two if they were willing to take the big cap hit up front.

I doubt that the Chiefs will do this, but it's a consideration if they have enough cap room to do it.

Fish
11-25-2008, 01:01 PM
That was my original thought when I read his post, but the truth is that a vet will take a short term deal over a long term deal if it has the same guaranteed money up front. Because chiefsngop mentioned the fact that the Chiefs have a lot of cap room available, I assumed he was talking about doing something like offering an unusually high signing bonus for a 1 or 2 year deal so as to make that deal competitive with any longer term offers the player might be getting. For that matter, the Chiefs could make the long term offer and simply cut the player after a year or two if they were willing to take the big cap hit up front.

I doubt that the Chiefs will do this, but it's a consideration if they have enough cap room to do it.

That's very true they do have the money to overpay enough to overcome the contract length, but as noted in your last sentence, I can't see the Chiefs ever taking that approach...

HemiEd
11-25-2008, 02:01 PM
That's very true they do have the money to overpay enough to overcome the contract length, but as noted in your last sentence, I can't see the Chiefs ever taking that approach...

IMO, they have overpaid for most of the free agents they have signed.
Priest Holmes being the major exception to this.

HemiEd
11-25-2008, 07:11 PM
You do NOT rebuild with Carl Peterson and/or Herm Edwards. The Chiefs are the worst team in the NFL.

So what hope do we have?