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View Full Version : Chiefs Offseason 2009 - my plan


Zouk
11-25-2008, 09:16 PM
Assumptions:

Herm returns. Obviously I am in the tank for Herm - this is known. I do recognize though that even with all the excuses the team has underachieved. There is no two ways around that central fact. I still think we're better off with him back, but I know it's logical to fire him. If he is fired we're dealing with new schemes and this exercise is 100% impossible - so I assumed he's back.

We are picking somewhere between 2 and 6 in the draft and Stafford either goes #1 or grades out as a low to mid 1st rounder.

A significant bidding war erupts for Matt Cassel and we play in it but do not win it. Even if we are highest bidder.

Cuts:

Damon Huard, Devard Darling, Damion McIntosh, Ron Edwards, Donnie Edwards, Pat Surtain

Do not resign:

Adrian Jones, Pat Thomas, Rocky Boiman, all the DBs we signed in the 2nd half of the year

UFA signings:

JP Losman - I'm not excited about it either. He has major known flaws in terms of pocket presence and decision making. Not a viable long-term starter, but a guy to compete with Thigpen and as a good a veteran backup option as I see out there. I do not want to trade a draft pick for a Derek Anderson type.

Jon Stinchcomb - Right tackle for the Saints is a good pass blocker. With Marc Colombo, Vernon Carey, Jon Runyan, Marvel Smith, Stacy Andrews, Mark Tauscher, and Jordan Gross all slated to hit free agency and an excellent and deep OT class available in the draft this will be a buyer's market at right tackle. Stinchcomb is logical from a quality/value standpoint.

Jonathan Vilma - I thought there was no way the Saints would let him go as he is a building block for their defense but according to the following link if the Saints re-sign Vilma they owe the Jets a 2nd round pick in 2009. The only problem with that is they promised that pick to the Giants for Shockey. So if they re-sign Vilma they give the 2 to the Jets and then have to give their 1 to the Giants. That ain't happening. Vilma is very athletic, a sound open field tackler, extremely smart, and the leader this D so badly needs. Definite medical risk, but one worth taking because we are desperate at the position.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/07/22/giants-could-get-a-first-rounder-for-shockey/

Jabari Greer - Once Surtain and his 7 mill salary is cut, legitimate depth at corner will be needed. With McKelvin's emergence in Buffalo, Greer is very likely to hit the market. Greer is an underrated player who came out undrafted and earned a starting spot on a decent D.

Some kicker to compete with Barth - Options include Shayne Graham and Mike Nugent. Both would likely beat out Barth.

Draft:

Round 1- Brian Orakpo DE Texas - Productive senior leader. If there's a QB we believe is top tier there I think we have to take him - that's a no brainer. I just see this as a really bad QB year.

Round 2 - Tyrone McKenzie LB S. Florida - Productive senior leader. 15 solo tackles and 3 tackles for loss against UConn this last weekend. Perfect sam backer for our D.

Round 3 - Eric Wood C Louisville - Productive senior leader. I saw a little of the Louisville - WVU game last weekend and he jumped off the screen play after play. Started with getting into a bit of a fight in pregame warmups and then just enveloped Mountaineers all game long. Excellent year for centers in the draft.

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081123/COLUMNISTS02/811230682

Round 4 - Jordan Shipley WR Texas - Productive senior leader. Would fit right in working the slot as a 3rd WR and returning punts.

That gives us the following:

QB - Tyler Thigpen
RB - Larry Johnson, Jamaal Charles
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe, Mark Bradley, Jordan Shipley, Will Franklin
TE - Tony Gonzalez, Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Brian Waters
C - Eric Wood
RG - Rudy Niswanger / cheap veteran replacement if we can find one
RT - Jon Stinchcomb
DE - Brian Orakpo
DE - Turk McBride on 1st and 2nd down, Tamba Hali on 3rd down
DT - Glenn Dorsey
DT - Tank Tyler
WLB- Derrick Johnson
MLB - Jon Vilma
SLB - Tyrone McKenzie
CB - Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr, Jabari Greer, Maurice Leggett
SS - DaJuan Morgan with a great chance of taking this job from Pollard
FS - Jarrad Page
PR - Jordan Shipley
KR - Hope Jamaal Charles learns - he'll need touches
P - Dustin Colquitt
K - FA / Barth

The Bad Guy
11-25-2008, 09:18 PM
Vilma is an absolute must.

Ultra Peanut
11-25-2008, 09:19 PM
zouk thread
didn't read




i wonder if its legal to mocap a dog

KCChiefsMan
11-25-2008, 09:24 PM
that would be nice

kc rush
11-25-2008, 09:29 PM
Assumptions:

Herm returns. Obviously I am in the tank for Herm - this is known. I do recognize though that even with all the excuses the team has underachieved. There is no two ways around that central fact. I still think we're better off with him back, but I know it's logical to fire him. If he is fired we're dealing with new schemes and this exercise is 100% impossible - so I assumed he's back.


This sets us back how?

KCJohnny
11-25-2008, 09:41 PM
Sign me up for the Zouk plan.
My only changes:
Quinn Gray > J. P. Losman (or =) .
D-Mac stays one more season (insurance).
If possible, deal LJ for a top defensive player.

Great work, Mr. Zouk.

evolve27
11-25-2008, 09:44 PM
I see a ton of mocks having us pick Brandon Spikes in the 2nd.

Zouk
11-25-2008, 09:51 PM
I see a ton of mocks having us pick Brandon Spikes in the 2nd.

The problem with that in my mind is that we absolutely need need need a middle linebacker. What if Spikes goes in the bottom of Round 1? As it looks right now there are not a lot of other middle linebacker options in the draft after him, Maualuga and Laurinaitis. And there won't be any free agent answers out there in June.

I think Spikes is a good player but this is an issue we either have to resolve pre-draft or by taking Maualuga in the top 10.

milkman
11-25-2008, 09:55 PM
Sign me up for the Zouk plan.
My only changes:
Quinn Gray > J. P. Losman (or =) .
D-Mac stays one more season (insurance).
If possible, deal LJ for a top defensive player.

Great work, Mr. Zouk.

D-Mac stays for insurance?

That's like buying flood insurance in the Mojave.

evolve27
11-25-2008, 09:57 PM
The problem with that in my mind is that we absolutely need need need a middle linebacker. What if Spikes goes in the bottom of Round 1? As it looks right now there are not a lot of other middle linebacker options in the draft after him, Maualuga and Laurinaitis. And there won't be any free agent answers out there in June.

I think Spikes is a good player but this is an issue we either have to resolve pre-draft or by taking Maualuga in the top 10.

Yeah the PRE-draft is crucial. Darry Beckwith from L.S.U. was on my radar as well but Vilma is certainly proven and needed here.

Mr. Laz
11-25-2008, 10:23 PM
JP Losman ---- gak

OnTheWarpath58
11-25-2008, 10:26 PM
D-Mac stays for insurance?

That's like buying flood insurance in the Mojave.

ROFL

Darth CarlSatan
11-25-2008, 11:34 PM
D-Mac stays for insurance?

That's like buying flood insurance in the Mojave.

I never imagined a homeowner would need flood insurance in the mountains, yet there are FEMA hot spots all over this rock.

But Sackintosh? That's just insanity.

Huffman83
11-26-2008, 02:54 AM
I've gotta be honest. I'd love for Vilma to be the next mike for KC. And I don't care if that involves Herm or Gunther.

I agree Herm will be back. But how much worse can it get!?!?! Oh wait....Gunther could ride on the coattails of coaching DT in his prime.

....pshhhh!

RedThat
11-26-2008, 03:05 AM
I agree with a signing like Vilma...But Id rather take chances on Peppers or Haynesworth instead. That would be option #1 for me. The DLine is priority number 1. This draft is deep with linebackers and I think the Chiefs could find one there.

No thanks to Losman

AustinChief
11-26-2008, 03:05 AM
If Runyan is available... you take him... end of story. The man is a beast. He is my age(old) but will compete in this league until he kills himself.... Runyan would be an amazing signing. not likely to happen... but WELL worth it. Athletic, smart and has a mean streak a mile long.... BUT is also a guy that is a wonderful human being and great for the community.
I will PRAY that we could sign him.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 05:20 AM
We'd probably have to pay Vilma 7 million a year to come here. That's a pretty dumb move for a guy with shoddy knees who one team gave up on four years into his career. Taking a risk because you are desperate is just setting yourself up to not only overpay, but to fail. That's how we ended up with Surtain, Shawn Barber, Vonnie Holiday, McPasson, and Kendrell Bell. Yes, let's definitely overpay for a FA defender because we need one.

Name one Chief free agent acquisition in the last 10 years on defense who was worth his contract and played a substantial amount of snaps. One.

Jon Runyan will be 36 years old next year. I'd just prefer he kill himself as opposed to him playing here until he does so.

Sometimes, I wonder if people understand how free agency in the NFL works. Everybody who dabbles in free agency does so out of need. They also overpay for the services of the player due to a dearth of talent at a given position. Moreover, the only players who are let go in FA in the NFL almost always have red flags.

Think about that: Need based acquisitions, paid too much, who have red flags.

Compare that to a sound drafting strategy of taking the best player who is a good value relative to his selection. People get red flags because of the risk. That's why top 3 talents like Randy Moss go 21. And yet, to follow Zouk's advice, we are doing the exact opposite, overpaying for a player who is only on the market because he has red flags.

That's insanity.

And as far as the logic of Stafford being either #1 overall or a mid-late first round pick...well where is the possibility of him grading out as a top 3-10 selection? That's a pretty ignorant omission.

You really should only use FA for depth rather than trying to get core players, because we can't get a New England discount.

And as far as your commitment to Herm:

http://video2gif.leechvideo.com/convert/gif/200811160731369772.gif

KCJohnny
11-26-2008, 06:19 AM
Jon Runyan will be 36 years old next year. I'd just prefer he kill himself as opposed to him playing here until he does so.


And as far as your commitment to Herm:

http://video2gif.leechvideo.com/convert/gif/200811160731369772.gif

:shake:

I'm praying for you. This is not healthy.

Red Beans
11-26-2008, 07:27 AM
I'm going out on a limb and say Kevin Robinson will be still be here as the return man. The kid has skills, wait til' he's got a training camp under his belt and a special teams coach that doesnt have his head lodged in his own rectum...

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 07:56 AM
reading your plan should make it clear to everyone why we should all be on our knees praying to get Stafford....

putting our rebuild in hands of Thigpen and Losman, and calling it a day, is pretty much insane...we're just just giving up on the most important position to the Franchise...no developmental QB behind Thigpen, just another Damon Huard...you people are freakin' sadists...15 years and counting...

i like Vilma, but I'm not sure the risk is worth the money....dunno, I'd rather draft our LBs but we have so many holes to fill...

i would hope and expect we'd spend some FA money on the OL, it is the one place you can get value in FA, imo, due to the career length of offensive lineman so that's cool with me

and I'm fine with the positions you're drafting - DE, LB, C - even though I can't speak to the merits of those specific players..

but if we keep herm (who should have never been hired, and who now deserves to be fired), don't draft a QB, sign Losman....wow that is heavy depression....that's a road to nowhere

Carl, Gun, Herm, Thigpen, Losman....the Chiefs Rebuilding Plan....wow

ChiefGator
11-26-2008, 08:08 AM
The problem with that in my mind is that we absolutely need need need a middle linebacker. What if Spikes goes in the bottom of Round 1? As it looks right now there are not a lot of other middle linebacker options in the draft after him, Maualuga and Laurinaitis. And there won't be any free agent answers out there in June.

I think Spikes is a good player but this is an issue we either have to resolve pre-draft or by taking Maualuga in the top 10.

There are issues with this (BPA), but even buying into your logic, I would love to have Vilma here as well. He has looked good.

Having Vilma here doesn't necessarily mean you don't grab Spikes in the second. Just having a stop gap doesn't mean you don't ALSO build for the future at a fairly critical position. Let them battle it out, and let them rotate in. If the best three LB's are Vilma, Spikes, and DJ, then figure out how to put them on the field at the same time.

I think Spikes in the 2nd would be a helluva value pick.

dirk digler
11-26-2008, 08:12 AM
I stopped reading after you said Herm and the coaches were coming back.

It is pretty much pointless to discuss rebuilding with the same sorry ass losers running and coaching this team.

Darth CarlSatan
11-26-2008, 08:34 AM
We'd probably have to pay Vilma 7 million a year to come here. That's a pretty dumb move for a guy with shoddy knees who one team gave up on four years into his career. Taking a risk because you are desperate is just setting yourself up to not only overpay, but to fail. That's how we ended up with Surtain, Shawn Barber, Vonnie Holiday, McPasson, and Kendrell Bell. Yes, let's definitely overpay for a FA defender because we need one.

Name one Chief free agent acquisition in the last 10 years on defense who was worth his contract and played a substantial amount of snaps. One.

Jon Runyan will be 36 years old next year. I'd just prefer he kill himself as opposed to him playing here until he does so.

Sometimes, I wonder if people understand how free agency in the NFL works. Everybody who dabbles in free agency does so out of need. They also overpay for the services of the player due to a dearth of talent at a given position. Moreover, the only players who are let go in FA in the NFL almost always have red flags.

Think about that: Need based acquisitions, paid too much, who have red flags.

Compare that to a sound drafting strategy of taking the best player who is a good value relative to his selection. People get red flags because of the risk. That's why top 3 talents like Randy Moss go 21. And yet, to follow Zouk's advice, we are doing the exact opposite, overpaying for a player who is only on the market because he has red flags.

That's insanity.

And as far as the logic of Stafford being either #1 overall or a mid-late first round pick...well where is the possibility of him grading out as a top 3-10 selection? That's a pretty ignorant omission.

You really should only use FA for depth rather than trying to get core players, because we can't get a New England discount.

And as far as your commitment to Herm:

http://video2gif.leechvideo.com/convert/gif/200811160731369772.gif


Peterson "Estate Sale Pick Me-Up"
DENIED!!! ROFL

Reerun_KC
11-26-2008, 08:46 AM
IF Herm returns, this team wont improve no more than 6-10.. The schedule is brutal next year.

Plus another year with Herm sets these players and franchise back at least another 2 years...

Darth CarlSatan
11-26-2008, 08:51 AM
IF Herm returns, this team wont improve no more than 6-10.. The schedule is brutal next year.

Plus another year with Herm sets these players and franchise back at least another 2 years...

The current bandwagon this morning, is that Carl gets canned, but Herm stays.

What new GM would want Herm? This is ridiculous.

dirk digler
11-26-2008, 09:16 AM
The current bandwagon this morning, is that Carl gets canned, but Herm stays.

What new GM would want Herm? This is ridiculous.

It wouldn't be a new GM it would be promoting Bill Kuharich.

Zouk
11-26-2008, 09:22 AM
We'd probably have to pay Vilma 7 million a year to come here. That's a pretty dumb move for a guy with shoddy knees who one team gave up on four years into his career. Taking a risk because you are desperate is just setting yourself up to not only overpay, but to fail. That's how we ended up with Surtain, Shawn Barber, Vonnie Holiday, McPasson, and Kendrell Bell. Yes, let's definitely overpay for a FA defender because we need one.

.....


And as far as the logic of Stafford being either #1 overall or a mid-late first round pick...well where is the possibility of him grading out as a top 3-10 selection? That's a pretty ignorant omission.





Vilma is a player the Saints gave up a good draft pick for. His contract was going to come up in a year - the Jets knew they wouldn't resign him, so they got something for him knowing he didn't fit their long-term plans because of scheme (3-4). He's played every game this year and played well. In a normal situation he would resign with the Saints. But the trade terms were really weird and present an unusual chance for us to get a player that really shouldn't be out there for free. As far as the knees - I don't know the whole story. The Chief doctors need to sign off.

I agree with your general position on free agency. But in my plan, the Chiefs are not major players. Certainly not to the extent of teams like the Jets or the Raiders were last offseason. This year the free agent crop looks much stronger than last years so there will be more activity. But Vilma is the only top-tier free agent I proposed.

On Stafford, I'm not saying that he's definitely either going to be #1 of mid-tier. There is every possibility he could grade out to fit in with the Chiefs selection. My personal opinion is he's mid to late 1st round. Others who love him think he'll probably go 1st, meaning we can't count on getting him. I just wrote that to explain why I think Stafford likely won't go to the Chiefs and let people in either camp pick their favorite reason to explain why not.

To me the bigger issue in planning the QB position is Cassel. He's the guy who will be available, and I think he's good. How good is very hard to judge. How high do we bid? Not a lot of other options out there.

Darth CarlSatan
11-26-2008, 09:24 AM
It wouldn't be a new GM it would be promoting Bill Kuharich.

I was afraid you were going to say that.

Delano
11-26-2008, 09:24 AM
Does Donnie Edwards get cut or does he retire? I hope he hangs 'em up and retires as a Chief.

Molitoth
11-26-2008, 09:43 AM
Hali needs to go. LJ needs to go. Gunther has to go.

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 10:25 AM
To me the bigger issue in planning the QB position is Cassel. He's the guy who will be available, and I think he's good. How good is very hard to judge. How high do we bid? Not a lot of other options out there.

Cassel, if he wins a playoff game, and with the patriot brand behind him, will get paid big time....more than he's worth for sure

that guy is surrounded by excellence (coaches, coaching, schemes) in that organization...i'd be very wary of him in another situation...

i'm more impressed by what thigpen has done..though I'm not sold on him either...

Darth CarlSatan
11-26-2008, 10:28 AM
Cassel, if he wins a playoff game, and with the patriot brand behind him, will get paid big time....more than he's worth for sure

that guy is surrounded by excellence (coaches, coaching, schemes) in that organization...i'd be very wary of him in another situation...

i'm more impressed by what thigpen has done..though I'm not sold on him either...

Making points happen and playing above average in the worst support system in the NFL combined with a practically non-existent O-Line, makes Thigpen a fucking STUD.

JASONSAUTO
11-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Making points happen and playing above average in the worst support system in the NFL combined with a practically non-existent O-Line, makes Thigpen a fucking STUD.

BUT, but he wasnt a 1st round draft pickROFL

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 10:36 AM
BUT, but he wasnt a 1st round draft pickROFL

why do true fans like yourself laugh at your own jokes?

Darth CarlSatan
11-26-2008, 10:36 AM
BUT, but he wasnt a 1st round draft pickROFL

And, he's not even from a big-name school; The HORROR!!! :evil:

Tribal Warfare
11-26-2008, 10:47 AM
why do true fans like yourself laugh at your own jokes?

It seems like they must add smilies in every other post they make when trying to make an argument or rebuttal.

Darth CarlSatan
11-26-2008, 10:50 AM
It seems like they must add smilies in every other post they make when trying to make an argument or rebuttal.

Why don't they color inside the lines???

Lame guys; put it to bed.

Tribal Warfare
11-26-2008, 10:51 AM
Why don't they color inside the lines???

Lame guys; put it to bed.


Lame? You new guys are the ones overusing smilies like a bunch of 5th grade girls

dj56dt58
11-26-2008, 11:01 AM
Losman compete with Thigpen??

Zouk
11-26-2008, 11:02 AM
Losman compete with Thigpen??

I am definitely open to better ideas - do you have any suggestions?

evolve27
11-26-2008, 11:10 AM
I am definitely open to better ideas - do you have any suggestions?

.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 11:14 AM
Vilma's not the same player he once was. I would've taken a run at him this past off-season, but now I'd rather us draft our next Mike.

Brandon Spikes please.

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 11:14 AM
.

Vick is white?

evolve27
11-26-2008, 11:16 AM
Vick is white?

That's what I was thinking. Oh well, that sorry bastard.

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 11:23 AM
Vilma's not the same player he once was. I would've taken a run at him this past off-season, but now I'd rather us draft our next Mike.

Brandon Spikes please.

What about Karlos Dansby?

Zouk
11-26-2008, 11:39 AM
Cassel, if he wins a playoff game, and with the patriot brand behind him, will get paid big time....more than he's worth for sure

that guy is surrounded by excellence (coaches, coaching, schemes) in that organization...i'd be very wary of him in another situation...

i'm more impressed by what thigpen has done..though I'm not sold on him either...

I'm impressed with Thigpen too. He was bad last week - but in ways that are entirely predictable for a 2nd year player from Coastal Carolina. I think there is an "it" factor that he shows signs of having. But it is scary to committ to him. The next 5 games are huge.

I can see Cassel on the Jets if Favre retires. They'll pay him a trillion dollars.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 11:40 AM
What about Karlos Dansby?

He'd be a great free agent addition, but he's an OLB right?

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 11:42 AM
He'd be a great free agent addition, but he's an OLB right?

Weren't they talking about possibly moving DJ to the Mike position?

Micjones
11-26-2008, 11:49 AM
Weren't they talking about possibly moving DJ to the Mike position?

Yeesh... I hope not.
He should be on the Weakside.
Dansby on the Strongside...
Spikes in the middle. That would be a nice LB trio.

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 11:54 AM
Yeesh... I hope not.
He should be on the Weakside.
Dansby on the Strongside...
Spikes in the middle. That would be a nice LB trio.

That might cost a lot of money for a LB core but it would allow us to grab a DE in the 1st round and an OT/OG in the 3rd. That would at least fill three holes in one shot.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 11:55 AM
That might cost a lot of money for a LB core but it would allow us to grab a DE in the 1st round and an OT/OG in the 3rd. That would at least fill three holes in one shot.

What do you think Dansby will run?
I forgot that DJ's due for a new contract.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 11:57 AM
Cassell can't throw the ball more than 15 yards with any accuracy, and he can't put any zip on outs, and he throws one of the worst deep balls I've ever seen. He also takes way too many sacks for as mobile as he is, because he holds on to the ball to fucking long.

I pray that Detroit takes him.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 11:58 AM
What do you think Dansby will run?
I forgot that DJ's due for a new contract.

Dansby's getting 8 mil this year. I'd imagine he signs for something like 5 and 55 with 16-18 guaranteed. I don't know what kind of fit he'd be here. He has good straight line speed, but I don't know if he has loose hips that would make him a good cover guy or not. He's too small to be a DE even in a Cover 2. Depending on his coverage ability, he'd be kind of a tweener in our system.

He basically has the same body type as Derrick Johnson, but he's used in more of a downhill role in AZ.

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 12:02 PM
Cassell can't throw the ball more than 15 yards with any accuracy, and he can't put any zip on outs, and he throws one of the worst deep balls I've ever seen. He also takes way too many sacks for as mobile as he is, because he holds on to the ball to fucking long.

I pray that Detroit takes him.

I'll be praying for that as well.

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 12:03 PM
Dansby's getting 8 mil this year. I'd imagine he signs for something like 5 and 55 with 16-18 guaranteed. I don't know what kind of fit he'd be here. He has good straight line speed, but I don't know if he has loose hips that would make him a good cover guy or not. He's too small to be a DE even in a Cover 2. Depending on his coverage ability, he'd be kind of a tweener in our system.

He basically has the same body type as Derrick Johnson, but he's used in more of a downhill role in AZ.

Well nevermind then.

JASONSAUTO
11-26-2008, 12:03 PM
why do true fans like yourself laugh at your own jokes?

I'm really laughing at guys like you

Micjones
11-26-2008, 12:05 PM
Dansby's getting 8 mil this year. I'd imagine he signs for something like 5 and 55 with 16-18 guaranteed.

8 milli? Did he get the franchise tag this year?

5 year/55 mil is major coin for a 5-year player who's never been to a Pro Bowl.

Johnson's due to make something like 7 million next year, but he's here for at least another year.

Hmm...
I wonder if Herm would consider changing the scheme?

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 12:07 PM
8 milli? Did he get the franchise tag this year?

5 year/55 mil is major coin for a 5-year player who's never been to a Pro Bowl.

Johnson's due to make something like 7 million next year, but he's here for at least another year.

Hmm...

Johnson really isn't going to get that blockbuster contract because he hasn't performed up to his billing. I'd assume that he's going to get somewhere between 4-5 million a year from us.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 12:07 PM
He'd be a great free agent addition, but he's an OLB right?

I agree he'd be a great pickup. He's an OLB yes. Not sure if he's a will or strongside? but it doesn't matter I think both he and DJ are capable of playing both positions anyway.

I also like the fact, he's only 27. definately an all pro player imo. At the very least, very close to an all pro.

Dansby is an excellent tackler. He's a smart player and excells in zone coverage. Also he is an outstanding blitzer and attacks gaps well.

He wont come cheap, but he would give the Chiefs everything they truly lack from their defense.

Zouk
11-26-2008, 12:08 PM
What do you think Dansby will run?
I forgot that DJ's due for a new contract.

If the Cards can't work a deal with him why wouldn't they franchise him just like they did last year?

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 12:08 PM
8 milli? Did he get the franchise tag this year?

Hmm...
I wonder if Herm would consider changing the scheme?

Yes.


No.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 12:08 PM
Johnson really isn't going to get that blockbuster contract because he hasn't performed up to his billing. I'd assume that he's going to get somewhere between 4-5 million a year from us.

Yeah, I can't imagine he'll get what he wants from Kansas City.
I honestly wonder if he'll even stay here beyond 2009.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 12:10 PM
Yes.


No.

I'd have to assume that Gun's gone after the season is over.
You don't think if a Top flight non-Cover 2 DC shakes loose that he'd consider a more aggressive defensive philosophy?

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 12:14 PM
I'd have to assume that Gun's gone after the season is over.
You don't think if a Top flight non-Cover 2 DC shakes loose that he'd consider a more aggressive defensive philosophy?

No.

He is more committed to that shit scheme than anyone but Dungy, and he's had no success with it.

He'll cede the offensive side b/c he's supposedly a defensive guy, but he will not change from the Cover 2. He changed his offensive philosophy 3 times in New York, but not one goddamned time did he tweak the D, only gutting it to install his original C2.

Skip Towne
11-26-2008, 12:49 PM
Lame? You new guys are the ones overusing smilies like a bunch of 5th grade girls

Stupid n00bs!!

crazycoffey
11-26-2008, 12:50 PM
not bad, good work. Mix a pick for a QB in there about the 3rd round instead of picking up Lossman and I'll buy it....

Fish
11-26-2008, 12:54 PM
I'd have to assume that Gun's gone after the season is over.
You don't think if a Top flight non-Cover 2 DC shakes loose that he'd consider a more aggressive defensive philosophy?

I think that scenario would be a huge blessing for the Chiefs franchise.

I also think that Herm would cling to the Cover2 as much as he could....

But then again, I never ever thought I'd see anything resembling a spread offense on a Herm coached team, so who knows....

Micjones
11-26-2008, 12:56 PM
No.

He is more committed to that shit scheme than anyone but Dungy, and he's had no success with it.

He'll cede the offensive side b/c he's supposedly a defensive guy, but he will not change from the Cover 2. He changed his offensive philosophy 3 times in New York, but not one goddamned time did he tweak the D, only gutting it to install his original C2.

Was his defense ever this bad in New York though?

Zouk
11-26-2008, 01:01 PM
No.

He is more committed to that shit scheme than anyone but Dungy, and he's had no success with it.

He'll cede the offensive side b/c he's supposedly a defensive guy, but he will not change from the Cover 2. He changed his offensive philosophy 3 times in New York, but not one goddamned time did he tweak the D, only gutting it to install his original C2.

You are really wrong about this. We run cover 2 on something like 25% of all snaps. This has been confirmed by David Gibbs.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 01:07 PM
You are really wrong about this. We run cover 2 on something like 25% of all snaps. This has been confirmed by David Gibbs.

You do realize that's pretty much bullshit, right? Whether they have the exact 4-3-4 combo in and are running a Cover 2, or another soft zone variant (Cover 3, Cover 4) with no rush from anyone but the front 4, the basic scheme is virtually identical, the holes in the zone are just in different places.

I guaran-fuckingtee we do not play man coverage on 75% of the snaps, nor do we run a lot of hybrid coverages. We are almost exclusively zone only, despite what WPI may tell you.

Besides, a Tampa 2 isn't exactly the "same" as a Cover 2 due to the responsibilities of the mike backer, but they are still both soft zone shells. A team can run 60% Tampa 2, 25% Cover 2, and 15% man coverage and say "Oh, well we only run C2 25% of the time" when in actuality they run it 85% of the time.

Zouk
11-26-2008, 01:30 PM
Cover 3 and 4 are not really variants of cover 2. They are different zone coverages. New England is another team that plays mostly zones - do you think they run the same defense we do? Obviously not. I'm not saying we've run 75% man, but we do run a lot of multiple coverages - with plenty of man mixed in.

Here's a good read on zones and just how different they can be:

http://foxsports.foxnews.com/nfl/story/5913750/Zone-Coverage:-Not-as-Simple-as-its-Seams

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 01:43 PM
Cover 3 and 4 are not really variants of cover 2. They are different zone coverages. New England is another team that plays mostly zones - do you think they run the same defense we do? Obviously not. I'm not saying we've run 75% man, but we do run a lot of multiple coverages - with plenty of man mixed in.

Here's a good read on zones and just how different they can be:

http://foxsports.foxnews.com/nfl/story/5913750/Zone-Coverage:-Not-as-Simple-as-its-Seams

I know what the differences in zones are and if you read my post where I mentioned that different zones have different areas to exploit, you would have already known this. Nor did I ever say Cover 3 and 4 were variants, I said they were soft zones. We don't run either hardly ever, but the philosophy is nearly the same: keep everything in front of you, and let the front four do all the work.

The fact of the matter is that Tampa 2 has become synonymous with Cover 2, and people often conflate the differences between the two schemes. For all intents and purposes, every team that runs a Cover 2 scheme in the pros really runs the Tampa 2--zone based throughout with the mike dropping back into the middle to deep middle and the other LB's flanking him in short zones while the Corners either protect the flats, or run deep and pass off the receiver to the next zone.

Mr. Laz
11-26-2008, 02:00 PM
i wonder what kind of impact Matt Cassel will have on our draft :hmmm:

Mecca
11-26-2008, 02:01 PM
I'm not a fan of this offseason...

Zouk
11-26-2008, 02:07 PM
I know what the differences in zones are and if you read my post where I mentioned that different zones have different areas to exploit, you would have already known this. Nor did I ever say Cover 3 and 4 were variants, I said they were soft zones. We don't run either hardly ever, but the philosophy is nearly the same: keep everything in front of you, and let the front four do all the work.

The fact of the matter is that Tampa 2 has become synonymous with Cover 2, and people often conflate the differences between the two schemes. For all intents and purposes, every team that runs a Cover 2 scheme in the pros really runs the Tampa 2--zone based throughout with the mike dropping back into the middle to deep middle and the other LB's flanking him in short zones while the Corners either protect the flats, or run deep and pass off the receiver to the next zone.

But I don't think you're really correct on this. Pittsburgh is a big cover 3 team, but I wouldn't call that a soft zone D. New England plays lots of cover 2 but they're not Tampa 2.

We are a multiple coverage zone-heavy defense.

el borracho
11-26-2008, 02:09 PM
So your plan is the same career loser head coach with the same questionable quarterback? Brilliant!

Mecca
11-26-2008, 02:13 PM
But I don't think you're really correct on this. Pittsburgh is a big cover 3 team, but I wouldn't call that a soft zone D. New England plays lots of cover 2 but they're not Tampa 2.

We are a multiple coverage zone-heavy defense.

Pittsburgh has this thing called a pass rush.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 02:52 PM
But I don't think you're really correct on this. Pittsburgh is a big cover 3 team, but I wouldn't call that a soft zone D. New England plays lots of cover 2 but they're not Tampa 2.

We are a multiple coverage zone-heavy defense.

Pittsburgh is a zone-blitz team that runs almost everything.

New England plays 2 deep. 2 Deep isn't Tampa 2, which is precisely what I was saying earlier.

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 03:09 PM
I'm impressed with Thigpen too. He was bad last week - but in ways that are entirely predictable for a 2nd year player from Coastal Carolina. I think there is an "it" factor that he shows signs of having. But it is scary to committ to him. The next 5 games are huge.

I can see Cassel on the Jets if Favre retires. They'll pay him a trillion dollars.

or the vikings if they have any money....

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 03:14 PM
i wonder what kind of impact Matt Cassel will have on our draft :hmmm:

if god cared about us then detroit would sign him

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:15 PM
So your plan is the same career loser head coach with the same questionable quarterback? Brilliant!

As usual, you add so much to the conversation. :rolleyes:

One talented defensive end and three above average linebackers would go a long way into solving the Chiefs defensive woes.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 03:18 PM
One talented defensive end and three above average linebackers would go a long way into solving the Chiefs defensive woes.

Well if that's all you want...
:D

Zouk
11-26-2008, 03:21 PM
Pittsburgh is a zone-blitz team that runs almost everything.

New England plays 2 deep. 2 Deep isn't Tampa 2, which is precisely what I was saying earlier.

I think we're talking past each other a little bit. My point is only that it is wrong to say that Herm is dead-set committed to Tampa 2 and that we just sit in that D all game. We run mutliple coverages, we disguise coverages, we shift fronts, we blitz (often very stupid Gunther blitzes), we play man. We run much more varied Ds than teams like Indy or Tampa do.

dirk digler
11-26-2008, 03:23 PM
Pittsburgh has this thing called a pass rush.

What's that?

el borracho
11-26-2008, 03:34 PM
As usual, you add so much to the conversation. :rolleyes:

One talented defensive end and three above average linebackers would go a long way into solving the Chiefs defensive woes.


The Chiefs are one of the worst teams in the league so, of course, adding any talent is helpful but, IMO, none of that will matter if we don't replace the head coach and don't have a viable option at QB. Until those two things happen, the Chiefs don't merit any lengthy discussion.

P.S. You really have a talent for making people dislike you.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:40 PM
The Chiefs are one of the worst teams in the league so, of course, adding any talent is helpful but, IMO, none of that will matter if we don't replace the head coach and don't have a viable option at QB. Until those two things happen, the Chiefs don't merit any lengthy discussion.

Firing Herm sends the wrong message, IMO. It says that the Chiefs will go back to the their same ol', same ol' approach. Draft poorly, no development, sign free-agents to fill in the gaps of said approach. It also signals that Clark Hunt is not a man of his word and is not interested in building a championship football team.

Why is it that so many "fans" don't get that?

Additionally, only a Chiefs fan would state that the Chiefs don't have a "viable" option at QB. That's the most retarded fucking statement that you could possibly make.

JFC.

P.S. You really have a talent for making people dislike you.

Thank you :shake:

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 03:41 PM
As usual, you add so much to the conversation. :rolleyes:

One talented defensive end and three above average linebackers would go a long way into solving the Chiefs defensive woes.

that's been true since before Herm arrived....are we supposed to crown his ass for getting to it in year 6?

he's signed some LBs...and they suck

i'd rather let someone else try, thanks

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:42 PM
that's been true since before Herm arrived....are we supposed to crown his ass for getting to it in year 6?

he's signed some LBs...and they suck

i'd rather let someone else try, thanks

Do you think I'm defending Gunther?

Uh, no.

I've said for years in this forum that Gunther should have been fired in 1998 and should have never been allowed to return.

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 03:44 PM
Firing Herm sends the wrong message, IMO. It says that the Chiefs will go back to the their same ol', same ol' approach. Draft poorly, no development, sign free-agents to fill in the gaps of said approach. It also signals that Clark Hunt is not a man of his word and is not interested in building a championship football team.

Why is it that so many "fans" don't get that?

Additionally, only a Chiefs fan would state that the Chiefs don't have a "viable" option at QB. That's the most retarded ****ing statement that you could possibly make.

JFC.



Thank you :shake:


that's dumb, that's why fans not named you "don't get it"

Herm isn't a great drafter, contrary to myth...he's just better than DV

the idea that only Herm can draft well so we can't fire him is so backwards...

we can continue to rebuild, with a coach and a staff that don't suck yak testes...all we have to do act

the Talking Can
11-26-2008, 03:46 PM
Do you think I'm defending Gunther?

Uh, no.

I've said for years in this forum that Gunther should have been fired in 1998 and should have never been allowed to return.

i'm clearly talking about Herm

he is responsible for our acquisitions..that's why he is called the Head Coach

he's already tried, and failed, to address the problems you mentioned....but for some reason we're supposed to pretend he was just hired yesterday....

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 03:47 PM
Firing Herm sends the wrong message, IMO. It says that the Chiefs will go back to the their same ol', same ol' approach. Draft poorly, no development, sign free-agents to fill in the gaps of said approach. It also signals that Clark Hunt is not a man of his word and is not interested in building a championship football team.

Why is it that so many "fans" don't get that?

Additionally, only a Chiefs fan would state that the Chiefs don't have a "viable" option at QB. That's the most retarded fucking statement that you could possibly make.

JFC.



Thank you :shake:

Hitler was right in thinking that an invasion of the Soviet Union that stopped after they hit Moscow and the Baku oil fields was a sound move that would fortify them against the eventual counterattack from the West by British (and later, American) forces. It doesn't mean that he was right in his prosecution of Operation Barbarossa, nor were his command decisions intelligent (like leaving the 6th Army high and dry while their backup climbed the fucking Caucuses).

Herm has the right concept of what to do in building through the draft and the youth process. It doesn't mean that he's the right one to undertake the process and coach and nurture these players through their development.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:47 PM
that's dumb, that's why fans not named you "don't get it"

Herm isn't a great drafter, contrary to myth...he's just better than DV

the idea that only Herm can draft well so we can't fire him is so backwards...

we can continue to rebuild, with a coach and a staff that don't suck yak testes...all we have to do act

Uh, no.

The Chiefs NEED a guy like Herm right now to lead the rebuild. A "rah-rah" type of guy who won't let them get down while losing. A guy who will be consistent on the practice field and will help them to stay motivated.

Is Herm a great X's and O's guy? No. Will he win you a Super Bowl? No. But he's the perfect guy to help these guys out while rebuilding.

I don't know why people miss that point and expect the Chiefs to be winning games with 30 freaking rookies on the team.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:49 PM
Herm has the right concept of what to do in building through the draft and the youth process. It doesn't mean that he's the right one to undertake the process and coach and nurture these players through their development.

The problem is finding the "right" coach to lead and withstand a rebuilding process.

Many have tried and failed.

Look at guys like Dom Capers, Chris Palmer, Dave McGinnis, George Siefert, Gary Kubiak, etc. They run out of energy and run out of time.

As I stated earlier, Herm's not going to win you a Super Bowl. But I think he's a good coach to have around while rebuilding.

el borracho
11-26-2008, 03:50 PM
Firing Herm sends the wrong message, IMO. It says that the Chiefs will go back to the their same ol', same ol' approach. Draft poorly, no development, sign free-agents to fill in the gaps of said approach. It also signals that Clark Hunt is not a man of his word and is not interested in building a championship football team.

Why is it that so many "fans" don't get that?

Additionally, only a Chiefs fan would state that the Chiefs don't have a "viable" option at QB. That's the most retarded ****ing statement that you could possibly make.

JFC.



Thank you :shake:
a) Neither Herm's drafts nor the on-field development have been stellar
b) Herm is not the only head coach in the world who would favor building through the draft
c) What affirms Clark's commitment to a championship more- keeping a proven loser or trying another option?
d) Thigpen has been playing well but it is ridiculous to think that his performance in the last few games has somehow solidified the position. I don't see anything retarded about saying that Thigpen has a long way to go before being considered a viable NFL QB.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 03:52 PM
Who's good that Herm has drafted, Bowe?

And you send a worse message keeping a guy who looks like he's about to oversee a 1-15 season...No other team in the league would keep a coach that lost 25 of 26 games...or hell even 19 of 20 which is where they are now.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 03:54 PM
Who's good that Herm has drafted, Bowe?

And you send a worse message keeping a guy who looks like he's about to oversee a 1-15 season...No other team in the league would keep a coach that lost 25 of 26 games...or hell even 19 of 20 which is where they are now.

It's too bad Clark doesn't see that.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 03:56 PM
It's too bad Clark doesn't see that.

You keep a guy who does that, other teams laugh at you behind your back.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:56 PM
a) Neither Herm's drafts nor the on-field development have been stellar
b) Herm is not the only head coach in the world who would favor building through the draft
c) What affirms Clark's commitment to a championship more- keeping a proven loser or trying another option?
d) Thigpen has been playing well but it is ridiculous to think that his performance in the last few games has somehow solidified the position. I don't see anything retarded about saying that Thigpen has a long way to go before being considered a viable NFL QB.

A) Herm didn't have "control" of the draft until 2008. Fact. An overwhelming majority of those players (along with Mike Cox and Maurice Leggett) are performing very well and improving each week. To deny that is plain stupid.

B) Herm knew that the Chiefs needed to start over. Until 2008, they've had no core of home-grown players. It's been shitty drafts and free-agent plug-ins for more than 15 years. The Chiefs NEED a core of guys to build around. You CAN'T build a team through free-agency. The Chiefs are proof of that folly.

C) Herm had two losing seasons out of six before 2007. How is that proven? And please explain to me how you can win with an aging roster (2007) or with a full rebuilding going on (2008)?

D) It's totally ridiculous. He's put up great numbers and lead the team to multiple scoring drives in each and every game, despite not having the #1 RB (LJ), #2 RB (K. Smith), #3 RB (Charles) and the #RB (Savage, who was cut). He's also playing behind the shittiest, most awful right side of an offensive line in the NFL, yet he hasn't been injured and he's playing his ass off. What the fuck more do you want?

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 03:57 PM
Who's good that Herm has drafted, Bowe?

And you send a worse message keeping a guy who looks like he's about to oversee a 1-15 season...No other team in the league would keep a coach that lost 25 of 26 games...or hell even 19 of 20 which is where they are now.

You're like broken record

Mecca
11-26-2008, 04:00 PM
You're like broken record

Because there is no excuse to keep this shitty coach and his shitty staff...it's pretty obvious we have a staff full of dumbasses that have no clue how to develop much of anything.

You and Zouk are like the only 2 people I know that think Herm should be back.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 04:03 PM
Because there is no excuse to keep this shitty coach and his shitty staff...it's pretty obvious we have a staff full of dumbasses that have no clue how to develop much of anything.

You and Zouk are like the only 2 people I know that think Herm should be back.

I think it's pretty clear that the offensive coaching staff should return in 2009.

I also think it's pretty clear that the defensive coordinator should be replaced in 2009, along with several position coaches.

I think it's impossible to judge the special teams coach because of the lack of talented depth on the roster. Special teams is usually filled by first, second and third year ascending players, not by guys that have no business being on an NFL roster.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 04:03 PM
It's time for the post:

Originally Posted by Sperm Edwards
Let me give this a crack.

2000 NYJ (Al Groh): 9-7

• Very up & down year, but most concede it was due to poor motivation & the players just flat-out disliking Groh. Pushed them too hard in preseason & they ran out of gas after starting 6-1.
• Also was Testaverde’s return from Achilles tendon injury.
• Among the teams they beat were Miami (11-5) twice, Tampa Bay (10-6) and Green Bay (9-7). They split with the Colts (10-6).
• Missed chip-shot FG vs Detroit at home. If the Jets had beaten Baltimore the following week they would have made the playoffs. This ultimately cost them a trip to the playoffs.
• Opponents’ records were combined 145-111 (.566).
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Anderson, Glenn, Lewis, Mawae).
• Other notable players included Chad Pennington, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Jason Ferguson, Curtis Martin, and Wayne Chrebet.

2001 NYJ (Herm Edwards): 10-6

• Edwards has no prior HC experience in the NFL, college, high school, or Pop-Warner. Edwards has no prior OC experience at any of those levels. Edwards has no prior DC experience at any of those levels. Edwards was never the special teams coach at any of those levels. As such, Edwards was never responsible for coming up with a game plan for a single football game prior to his hiring.
• Takes over a team with a veteran 3-4 defense with cover-corners, hires a DC (Ted Cottrell) whose specialty is the 3-4, & inserts a 4-man front, cover-2 base package that was successful in Tampa Bay (never considering that TB had 4-5 defensive pro-bowlers who made it work).
• Though the offense had an immobile pocket passer who missed the ’99 season with a ruptured Achilles tendon, and short WRs (Chrebet, Coles, Moss), shifted the team to a west-coast offense under Paul Hackett (who had just been fired for running the USC program into the ground after three years. Since his removal from USC, they are the best team in the USA. Prior to that he was fired from the OC position in KC).
• After an 8.5 sack rookie season, decided to move huge DE Shaun Ellis to DT, a colossal flop.
• Started out 1-2 including an unwatchable offensive plodding vs. the 6-10 Colts (down by three touchdowns we were still eating 8+ minutes of clock up on one drive running the ball in the 2nd half).
• Teams beat were NE (11-5) in the game that Lewis knocked Bledsoe out, Miami (11-5) twice, and Oakland (10-6).
• Eked out 1-point victories vs. the Bengals (6-10), Colts (6-10), and Panthers (1-15) and a 6-pt win vs. the 3-13 Bills before losing to those same Bills in a win-and-we’re-in game 15.
• Made the playoffs on a 50-yd FG in Oakland in the last game.
• Opponents’ records were combined 131-125 (.511).
• Lost the WC game in Oakland.
• Four went to the Pro Bowl (Abraham, Glenn, Martin, Mawae).
• Offense was #26 in yards; #17 in pts
• Defense was #17 in yards; #12 in points.

2002 NYJ: 9-7, Division champions

• In an effort to better enable the team to complete the switch to Edwards’ cover-2 base package, salary-cap purges Aaron Glenn & Marcus Coleman were replaced by Aaron Beasley and Donnie Abraham. To better facilitate Ellis’ move to DT, Edwards brought in DE Steve White which led GM Bradway to reach for a speedy DE in the 1st round (Bryan Thomas) to groom behind White. None of the players Edwards knew and/or requested panned out. Only Donnie Abraham proved to be a serviceable starter for 3 years. Since then, Thomas is still 2nd-string; Ellis went back to DE; Beasley (released), Abraham (retired), and White (released) are no longer with the team.
• Team started out 1-4. Their lone win in the first five games resulted from Chad Morton’s kickoff return TD in overtime (his 2nd of the game) vs. the Bills. The following three games, with no injuries to speak of, the Jets were outscored 102-13.
• During that stretch, RB Curtis Martin had two very bad high ankle sprains and did not miss a game. Edwards would not start LaMont Jordan for even one game, or give Jordan as many as 6 carries in any game.
• Game 5 they blew a lead to KC by getting too conservative too early on offense (an Edwards/Hackett trademark for their entire NYJ tenure).
• Game 7 blew a 21-3 lead to the Cleveland Browns & lost 24-21 for the same reason.
• Damien Robinson brought the shotgun to Giants Stadium in the trunk of his car on Oct 14, 2001 (soon after 9/11).
Ellis was moved back to DE and had a sub-par year since he was still carrying the extra weight required for his move to DT.
• Chad Pennington had a magical season and almost single-handedly brought the Jets back from the dead, throwing 22 TD’s to 6 INT’s and going 8-4 in his regular season starts (including the two blown games when the Jets stopped passing way too early).
• With the Jets in control of their own destiny, lost to the (then) 3-10 Chicago Bears.
• Thanks to an improbable outcome in the last game between Miami/NE, the Jets won a three-way tiebreaker as all three teams ended up 9-7. Jets win the division.
• Beat the 10-6 Colts in impressive fashion 41-0 in the wild card game before getting slaughtered 30-10 by the Raiders in the division playoff game a week later.
• After the game, with his star receiver Laveranues Coles not under contract, Edwards comments to the media that the Jets need to get bigger at WR. Coles departs for Washington after the Jets only tender him at $1.3M.
• >.500 teams beat were Miami (9-7), Denver (9-7), NE (9-7), GB (12-4)
• Pro Bowlers were John Abraham and Kevin Mawae

2003 NYJ: 6-10

• Chad Pennington breaks his left wrist in a pre-season game, where rookie FB BJ Askew was responsible for picking up and missing his assignment on the blitz that got Pennington injured. Inexcusable letting a rookie block for the franchise QB in a meaningless preseason game. Pennington is out until game 7.
• Edwards does not let Testaverde start the last pre-season game to work with the first team offense out of fear that he, too, could get injured.
• Testaverde starts very rusty. The offense is not altered at all to take advantage of Testaverde’s arm strength and minimize his lack of mobility (again). Jets lose the first four games, including an embarrassing display of conservatism vs. the Redskins in Washington to kick off the NFL season.
• After winning two games in a row, and with a 10-pt halftime lead over the Eagles, Edwards follows through with his pre-game announcement that Pennington will relieve Vinny during the game. Pennington comes in, blows the lead, and the Jets lose. They also blow a very winnable game to the 4-12 Giants (who would not win another game after that) the following week.
• Won a surprising victory vs the 12-4 Titans who were clearly not taking us seriously. Only other teams they lost to all season (& post-season) were the Colts & Patriots.
• Prior to a late game against New England, Herm is evidently and suddenly not satisfied with Hackett’s game plan of draw plays. He feels we need to be more vertical in the passing game. We know this because he says as much to beat reporters early enough in the week to allow Belichick/Crennel ample time to prepare. Herm (as usual) follows through with his publicized gameplan & Chad throws 5 interceptions for the first & only time in his career.
• Final game we lose yet another winnable game vs. Miami as Herm has officially completed the exorcism of the Jets demons that had plagued Miami.
• Herm decided that the only RB on the team with breakaway speed (Jordan) will now be relegated to goal-line & short-yardage duty. Never mind that he’s a “RB with power” rather than a “power RB.” This is also announced, so any opponent who sees him come into the game (when it’s not garbage-time) is fully aware that the next play will be a handoff to Jordan (more than half his year’s carries were in 2-3 TE sets). In doing this for the entire season, Jordan still has a higher YPC than the “underrated warrior” RB who has the whole field and all the first-second downs to work with unless it’s garbage time to run out the clock at the end of a half. Though healthy, Jordan finishes the year with 46 carries, only 15 of which came after November 1st & only one carry after December 1st.
• On the year, a staggering 87% of the RB carries (including garbage time) went to Curtis Martin so he could amass 1300 yards. By comparison, Jamal Lewis with over 2000 yards got 81%; Ahman Green with almost 1900 yards at 75%.
• Santana Moss starts the year buried behind Wayne Chrebet and Coles replacement–Curtis Conway. No amount of dropped balls gets Conway out of the starting lineup. Only an injury. Once he was finally given the chance, Moss explodes like we all hoped he would when we traded up to draft him two years earlier. He explodes, for 1100 yards and 10 TDs despite only starting 12 games. Numbers never to be approached again until traded.
• Opponents’ records were combined 135-121 (.527), owing much to playing the 14-2 Patriots twice (otherwise we still only went 6-8 (.428) against opponents with a combined .477 win percentage.
• Missed the playoffs
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (Ellis, Mawae).
• Offense was #23 in yards, #21 in pts
• Defense was #20 in yards, #8 in points. Ted Cottrell is fired in the offseason.

2004 NYJ: 10-6

• Team is given the gift of the easiest schedule to start the season in recent memory and win all five of those games, including the Bengals (in Carson Palmer’s first NFL start); the Chargers (one game removed from the NFL’s worst team and two weeks removed from considering starting rookie Phillip Rivers at QB for the season); the 4-12 Dolphins (with no line, no RBs, and a QB controversy in full swing); the then 0-3 Bills; and the 2-14 49ers. Those teams’ combined record at the time of their games with the Jets was 1-11 (1-16 after the losses to the Jets).
• Despite the outcomes, nearly blew the games against the Bengals, Chargers, Bills, and even let the hapless 49ers get out to a 14-0 lead.
• Week 6 the Jets hold the SB champion Patriots (and owners of the #4 offense in 2004) to only 13 points. Our try-to-keep-it-close-until-the-end offensive scheme nets a paltry 7 points (though the rest of the NFL would average over 16 ppg against the Pats).
• After beating up the pathetic Dolphins, the Jets get embarrassed by the Bills as they give us flashbacks to the Ted Cottrell rush-d’s of the past watching Willis McGahee move the chains on 37 carries. Chad Pennington injures his shoulder in the game.
• With Quincy Carter starting effectively and the OL mauling the vaunted Ravens rush defense, the Jets take commanding control of the game, only to watch Hackett/Edwards needlessly attempt an unnecessary HB option that is intercepted and returned for a TD while the Jets were driving into Ravens territory.
• The same game Edwards is caught on camera having Dick Curl telling him how many timeouts we had & when they were to be used; Pennington coaching Herm to instruct Carter on what to do; the clock-killing debacle where Edwards can’t come up with a single play on his own at the end of regulation that put us in a position to have to choose between a play or a FG even though it wasn’t 4th down; also shots of the Ravens’ booth repeatedly and correctly predicting what play would be called as the 4th quarter wound down. In the post-game press conference, Edwards initially lies about a play being relayed to Carter with adequate time, to shift the blame onto the player, before retracting it upon realizing the replay of the game on NFL network showed the polar opposite.
• After beating the 4-12 Browns, 6-10 Cardinals, and 7-9 Texans, the Jets faced the Steelers and failed to score a touchdown as Jordan is stubbornly kept on the sideline despite Martin’s game-long ineffectiveness. (The average opponent scored 16 points per game against the Steelers; the Jets offense managed 12 total points in two games).
• At 10-4, the Jets needed to win one more game to lock up a playoff spot. They came out totally flat for a 23-7 loss vs. NE (the score doesn’t nearly depict how lopsided it was) before losing to the 7-8 Rams. A Buffalo loss to the Steelers 2nd & 3rd-stringers allows the Jets to advance to the post-season anyway.
• Jets squeak by the Chargers despite almost giving the game back on an unsportsmanlike penalty on what should have been the Chargers’ last play in regulation. Chargers missed an overtime FG and the Jets did not.
• Against Pittsburgh, the Jets failed to score a single offensive touchdown. The defense & special teams keep the Jets in the game and are in a position to win it with a field goal despite just missing one the previous possession. With the clock winding down, the Jets decide to predictably run up the middle twice (and get stuffed both times) before Edwards comes up with his crowning achievement as decision maker. Though at Heinz Field, the worst place to kick a FG in the country, and a weak-legged kicker who just missed from >40 yards, it is decided that a 41-yard FG is to be made into a 43-yard FG by kneeling on the ball (which would have been the longest FG ever made at Heinz Field at the time). Brien misses, Jets go on to lose the game.
• Opponents’ record: 134-122 (.523). Played NE (14-2) twice & Pittsburgh (15-1) & lost all 3 games; the other 13 games, Jets opponents record was 91-117 (.438).
• >.500 teams beat: Chargers (12-4), Bills (9-7), Seattle (9-7); also beat the Chargers in the playoffs.
• Two went to the Pro Bowl (J. Abraham, C. Martin).
• Offense was #12 in yds, #17 in pts
• Defense was #7 in yards, #4 in points.

2005:

• The playoff loss is placed on Brien, who is released after the draft, and Paul Hackett, who “resigned” at the close of the season.
• Strength & conditioning coach John Lott quits b/c Herm won't enforce weight restrictions with fines.
• Jets add Ty Law; lose Kareem MacKenzie, LaMont Jordan, Jason Ferguson, and Anthony Becht; trade Santana Moss for Laveranues Coles.
• To complement new OC Mike Heimerdinger, Edwards hires a few coaches who will be learning on the job just like he did. (Heimerdinger would end up coaching these coaches almost as much as the players for the entire season).
• Chad Pennington, who has a close personal relationship with Edwards, is not placed under any pressure to get his necessary shoulder surgery performed as soon as possible (since the recovery time will be lengthy, and the Jets would be installing a new offense under Mike Heimerdinger). Immediately after the season he goes on vacation for a few weeks before getting his necessary surgery. He is clearly neither fully healed nor game-ready by week 1.
• Division rival New England loses OC Charlie Weis and DC Romeo Crennel
• Jets then start losing players to injury right & left (and Herm has the nerve to act shocked after that softy training camp & then sticking with a system that repeatedly got McNair killed with a GOOD offensive line). Fumbled snaps, players winded, meetings with KC's brass the weekend of the Jets-Chiefs game. The season was over before the injuries. I don't even want to go into detail about last season there was so much wrong with it.

When you've absorbed this, we can go over the marvelous coaching job he's done with KC, mmm-kay?

RedThat
11-26-2008, 04:12 PM
A) Herm didn't have "control" of the draft until 2008. Fact. An overwhelming majority of those players (along with Mike Cox and Maurice Leggett) are performing very well and improving each week. To deny that is plain stupid.

B) Herm knew that the Chiefs needed to start over. Until 2008, they've had no core of home-grown players. It's been shitty drafts and free-agent plug-ins for more than 15 years. The Chiefs NEED a core of guys to build around. You CAN'T build a team through free-agency. The Chiefs are proof of that folly.

C) Herm had two losing seasons out of six before 2007. How is that proven? And please explain to me how you can win with an aging roster (2007) or with a full rebuilding going on (2008)?

D) It's totally ridiculous. He's put up great numbers and lead the team to multiple scoring drives in each and every game, despite not having the #1 RB (LJ), #2 RB (K. Smith), #3 RB (Charles) and the #RB (Savage, who was cut). He's also playing behind the shittiest, most awful right side of an offensive line in the NFL, yet he hasn't been injured and he's playing his ass off. What the **** more do you want?

What many thought was a good situation for him coming here, i.e., having the leagues #1 offense inherited to him was actually a bad situation. He inherited an old veteran team that needed to rebuild.

My knock on Herm is because he was a player in this league before, he probably sees the game threw the eyes of a player, and feels the game through the body of a player. And i don't think thats a good thing. I noticed that is a bad thing. He is not as hard on his players and thats an area I think he needs to improve on. Its like having that just another player on that sideline rather then that actual "coach". I think thats a huge reason he doesn't really have a backbone I noticed that.

Not many expect a young team to win thats for sure. But I think Herm needs to change his philosophy and scrap this "cover 2" crap...Get a new DC in here that will run a defense according to players strengths. Much like Gailey is doing with the offense. Same needs to be done with the defense. I think he needs good co-ordinators. But Im all for rebuilding, I think its great. Just get a def co-ordinator that can call a game, and that is capable of making good adjustments. Im for Herm leaving and bringing in a guy like Cowher. If he doesnt leave at least get him better assistants.

I agree with your take on Thigpen.

el borracho
11-26-2008, 04:30 PM
A) Herm didn't have "control" of the draft until 2008. Fact. An overwhelming majority of those players (along with Mike Cox and Maurice Leggett) are performing very well and improving each week. To deny that is plain stupid.

B) Herm knew that the Chiefs needed to start over. Until 2008, they've had no core of home-grown players. It's been shitty drafts and free-agent plug-ins for more than 15 years. The Chiefs NEED a core of guys to build around. You CAN'T build a team through free-agency. The Chiefs are proof of that folly.

C) Herm had two losing seasons out of six before 2007. How is that proven? And please explain to me how you can win with an aging roster (2007) or with a full rebuilding going on (2008)?

D) It's totally ridiculous. He's put up great numbers and lead the team to multiple scoring drives in each and every game, despite not having the #1 RB (LJ), #2 RB (K. Smith), #3 RB (Charles) and the #RB (Savage, who was cut). He's also playing behind the shittiest, most awful right side of an offensive line in the NFL, yet he hasn't been injured and he's playing his ass off. What the **** more do you want?

a) The whole "Herm didn't have control then" line is conjecture which contradicts the twenty year history of Carl's tenure. With only a few notable exceptions, Carl has always given his coaches a lot of input in the draft.
b) Again, Herm is not the only head coach who would (attempt to) build through the draft.
c) Herm's career record over 8 years is a losing record. Even Herm supporters such as yourself admit that Herm is not likely to win a SuperBowl so I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Herm is not a good head coach.
d) Thigpen has played well in the last few weeks but he comes without the pedigree and has a long way to go before he should be considered a given. As has been posted many times on this forum, there are many one game or one year success stories (Reich, Mitchell, Anderson) that eventually prove they aren't long-term solutions. Thigpen must play well for an extended period of time (1 1/2- 2 years) before he could convince me that he is 'the guy.'

Micjones
11-26-2008, 04:37 PM
a) The whole "Herm didn't have control then" line is conjecture which contradicts the twenty year history of Carl's tenure. With only a few notable exceptions, Carl has always given his coaches a lot of input in the draft.
b) Again, Herm is not the only head coach who would (attempt to) build through the draft.
c) Herm's career record over 8 years is a losing record. Even Herm supporters such as yourself admit that Herm is not likely to win a SuperBowl so I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Herm is not a good head coach.

Couldn't agree more.

d) Thigpen has played well in the last few weeks but he comes without the pedigree and has a long way to go before he should be considered a given. As has been posted many times on this forum, there are many one game or one year success stories (Reich, Mitchell, Anderson) that eventually prove they aren't long-term solutions. Thigpen must play well for an extended period of time (1 1/2- 2 years) before he could convince me that he is 'the guy.'

I think he needs a 16-game audition to determine his future with this franchise, but I think he could earn that in the next 5 games.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 04:47 PM
a) The whole "Herm didn't have control then" line is conjecture which contradicts the twenty year history of Carl's tenure. With only a few notable exceptions, Carl has always given his coaches a lot of input in the draft.
b) Again, Herm is not the only head coach who would (attempt to) build through the draft.
c) Herm's career record over 8 years is a losing record. Even Herm supporters such as yourself admit that Herm is not likely to win a SuperBowl so I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Herm is not a good head coach.
d) Thigpen has played well in the last few weeks but he comes without the pedigree and has a long way to go before he should be considered a given. As has been posted many times on this forum, there are many one game or one year success stories (Reich, Mitchell, Anderson) that eventually prove they aren't long-term solutions. Thigpen must play well for an extended period of time (1 1/2- 2 years) before he could convince me that he is 'the guy.'

First off, I have a very hard time respecting someone's opinion when they have fucking Gunther Cunningham in their goddamn avatar. Talk about the epitome of stupidity.

Again, JFC.

A) Carl Peterson admitted in the KC Star that HE and HE alone thought they could win in 2007 "With the Old Guys". Period. Edwards and Kuharich went to Clark in 2008 and THEY have control of the draft and personnel. Peterson's OUT.

B) I don't even understand what this means. First off, to go through a rebuilding process, you MUST have the absolute trust of ownership. No one wants to put their ass on the line and not see the project through. If Herm thought for one second that he wouldn't be back in 2009, there's no way he'd agree to stay on in 2008. So again, whatever point you're trying make is invalid.

C) What's your point? Through his first 6 years as a head coach, he had 4 playoff appearances and a winning record. Do you think he forgot how to coach? Vermeil's first four years in Philly were a losing record. Vermeil's first two years in St. Louis they went 5-11. There are stories of rebuilding coaches who went on to build winners in just about every city BUT Kansas City. Why do you think the case? Maybe because the fans are big fucking pussies that can't stomach a true rebuild?

D) Reich and Mitchell weren't second year players when they received their chances to start. Anderson is 25. 25! His career is far from over. If you think that drafting and starting a first round QB is the key, well, you're sadly mistaken. For every Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco, there's a Couch, Smith, McNown, Leaf, McGuire, Maddox, Druckenmiller, Shuler, Mirer, Steve Walsh, etc. Thigpen's proving on the field that he's a true NFL caliber starter, regardless of his "pedigree".

Mecca
11-26-2008, 04:49 PM
Lets hire a new GM....because well he'd fire Herm.

crazycoffey
11-26-2008, 05:14 PM
Pittsburgh is a zone-blitz team that runs almost everything.

New England plays 2 deep. 2 Deep isn't Tampa 2, which is precisely what I was saying earlier.


but we do all this too, we just aren't successful on the field.

FringeNC
11-26-2008, 05:15 PM
If Herm comes back, is he really going to let Gailey run the most pass-happy offense in the league? Remember, this is the same guy who endlessly ridiculed Air Saunders (which really wasn't pass happy), and blamed our passing attack for our bad defense. [Furthermore, does someone who actually thinks that belong in coaching at all, let alone the NFL?]

I think Herm will be able to convince C. Hunt to give him another year based on selling Thigpen as a franchise QB that Herm developed. Gailey and Thigpen in my opinion have given Herm another year.

If Herm comes back, let's pray that Gunther doesn't so that these young guys on D will get some real coaching.

kcchiefsus
11-26-2008, 05:17 PM
All I know is i'm gonna shit a brick if we are sitting there with $30-$40 million in cap room next offseason and don't use some. Now I know free agency is not THE answer but it can be part of the solution. At least one impact player would really help. There are really good options out there in free agency at MLB, OT, CB, and DE. I would love to at least sign one top tier free agent, lord knows we have the money.

crazycoffey
11-26-2008, 05:19 PM
If Herm comes back, is he really going to let Gailey run the most pass-happy offense in the league? Remember, this is the same guy who endlessly ridiculed Air Saunders (which really wasn't pass happy), and blamed our passing attack for our bad defense. [Furthermore, does someone who actually thinks that belong in coaching at all, let alone the NFL?]

I think Herm will be able to convince C. Hunt to give him another year based on selling Thigpen as a franchise QB that Herm developed. Gailey and Thigpen in my opinion have given Herm another year.

If Herm comes back, let's pray that Gunther doesn't so that these young guys on D will get some real coaching.



See, I think Herm bought himself another year before the season started. I think he really got C. Hunt and Peterson to buy into going young, having struggles, losing more than winning this year and see what players we have that will be worth keeping. Addressing new needs and make improvement next year.

I know no one likes this, because it's not his first year here, but it's his first year with mang. players and coaches all on the same page.

Dicky McElephant
11-26-2008, 05:22 PM
See, I think Herm bought himself another year before the season started. I think he really got C. Hunt and Peterson to buy into going young, having struggles, losing more than winning this year and see what players we have that will be worth keeping. Addressing new needs and make improvement next year.

I know no one likes this, because it's not his first year here, but it's his first year with mang. players and coaches all on the same page.

If these coaches are all on the same page....then we're fucked.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 05:22 PM
It's not C. Hunt. It's CHunt.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 05:25 PM
All I know is i'm gonna shit a brick if we are sitting there with $30-$40 million in cap room next offseason and don't use some. Now I know free agency is not THE answer but it can be part of the solution. At least one impact player would really help. There are really good options out there in free agency at MLB, OT, CB, and DE. I would love to at least sign one top tier free agent, lord knows we have the money.

I don't expect any major signings....

crazycoffey
11-26-2008, 05:25 PM
If these coaches are all on the same page....then we're ****ed.

I mean in trying to develop young talent, teach, and learn together, not anyone saying thier way is the only way, even Herm shows that this year with the spread. And knowing that they weren't going to win alot of games.

Skip Towne
11-26-2008, 05:25 PM
It's not C. Hunt. It's CHunt.

That's almost as good as TrINT.

crazycoffey
11-26-2008, 05:27 PM
I don't expect any major signings....


I don't know about that just yet. Could be they want one more year all young and comprimise with more losses again and bigger push for FAs next year, but if they evaluate what we have and feel we are getting closer to our goals, I would expect a few signings after the draft and maybe even right before the season.....

Brock
11-26-2008, 05:34 PM
They aren't going to spend any money until the stadium is done.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 05:52 PM
They aren't going to spend any money until the stadium is done.

QFT.

And quite honestly, I don't think they should.

They need to build a core football team, then bring in a few guys in free-agency to supplement their weaknesses.

Not the other way around, which has been Peterson's trademark since 1990.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 06:42 PM
One day we'll stop demonizing Free Agency and recognize the way (wrong) its been used by this franchise.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 06:44 PM
It's going to be basically impossible to build an entire team out of the draft...now there are some positions you need to draft because teams don't let those guys go.

Micjones
11-26-2008, 06:46 PM
It's ridiculous to even suggest that a franchise not incorporate Free Agency into the process of building a championship team.

Sam Hall
11-26-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm not optimistic about the Chiefs getting a QB in the first round of this year's draft. I think Thigpen will be the starter next year and just hope he stays healthy. I'd rather not shell out the dough or draft picks for Cassell or Derek Anderson. I'm OK with that because the Chiefs need defensive players with their early picks. I want to see the Lions go 0-16, even if that means they get Stafford.

The 2010 QB class looks sweet with Sanchez, Bradford and Davis.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 07:01 PM
Davis is probably leaving early from what I've heard.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:05 PM
It's going to be basically impossible to build an entire team out of the draft...now there are some positions you need to draft because teams don't let those guys go.

Tell that to the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Or the 2005 Pittsburgh Steelers.

Or the 2006 Indianapolis Colts.

Or the 2007 New York Giants.

Or the New England Patriots of this decade.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 07:18 PM
Tell that to the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Or the 2005 Pittsburgh Steelers.

Or the 2006 Indianapolis Colts.

Or the 2007 New York Giants.

Or the New England Patriots of this decade.

I can give you key players off all of those teams, save the Colts who were FA acquisitions, so how about that?

The Giants especially who 2 of their star players are FA signings.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:28 PM
I can give you key players off all of those teams, save the Colts who were FA acquisitions, so how about that?

The Giants especially who 2 of their star players are FA signings.

Two of their star players from the 2007 squad? Do you mean Eli Manning? Amani Toomer? Dominek Hixon? Kevin Boss? Justin Tuck? Michael Strahan? Aaron Ross? Shaun O'Hara? Chris Snee? Osi Yuminyora? Ahmad Bradshaw? Brandon Jacobs?

You mean those guys? The guys that are the core of the team?

90% of the Giants starters came through the draft. THAT'S how you win a Super Bowl.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 07:30 PM
If you don't think Plaxico Burress who is their best receiver and Antonio Pierce their MLB are 2 of their most important players and better than a majority of the guys you listed then hey that's on you.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:32 PM
If you don't think Plaxico Burress who is their best receiver and Antonio Pierce their MLB are 2 of their most important players and better than a majority of the guys you listed then hey that's on you.

You're a fucking idiot. Are you serious? Are you fucking serious?

If so, everything you say in the future will be worth a pile of steaming shit, IMO.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 07:33 PM
Cool I disagree with Dane I'm an idiot now.......

Take Burress off that team and they lose to the Packers...take Pierce off that team and they have a real issue since he's their defensive captain, but yea they suck and don't matter.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:36 PM
Cool I disagree with Dane I'm an idiot now.......

Take Burress off that team and they lose to the Packers...take Pierce off that team and they have a real issue since he's their defensive captain, but yea they suck and don't matter.

Pierce has been with the Giants since 2001. The overwhelming majority of those defensive players were drafted by the Giants. PERIOD.

Same goes for the offense. The overwhelming majority of those players were DRAFTED by the Giants.

THAT'S how you win a Super Bowl. DRAFTING the CORE of your football team and adding in a missing piece or two through free agency.

DUH.

Mecca
11-26-2008, 07:38 PM
The point is the ENTIRE TEAM was not built on the draft, you can't just completely shun FA.

cdcox
11-26-2008, 07:39 PM
Assumptions:

We are picking somewhere between 2 and 6 in the draft and Stafford either goes #1 or grades out as a low to mid 1st rounder.



Getting the #1 is almost as likely as getting the 5th pick and more likely than getting the 6th.

Chiefnj2
11-26-2008, 07:39 PM
Tell that to the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Or the 2005 Pittsburgh Steelers.

Or the 2006 Indianapolis Colts.

Or the 2007 New York Giants.

Or the New England Patriots of this decade.

The 2000 Ravens don't make it through the playoffs without Sharpe. Siragusa and Adams were FA's as well.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 07:48 PM
The point is the ENTIRE TEAM was not built on the draft, you can't just completely shun FA.

I agree with your take Mecca. You cannot build an entire team through drafting. A lot think that. Let us not forget ppl there 3 ways you build your team draft, FA, and trades. Even the most key contributors to teams winning SB were FA acquisitions.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 07:50 PM
Pierce hasn't been with the Giants since '01. He's been with them since '05, signing as a FA from the Redskins.

Kareem McKenzie was a FA and is their best o-lineman. Sam Madison was a FA. Burress was a FA. Mitchell was a FA for them.

I'm as anti-FA as anyone, but the Giants had 1/4 of their starting lineup come from free agency, many of whom were key parts of that team.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:53 PM
The 2000 Ravens don't make it through the playoffs without Sharpe. Siragusa and Adams were FA's as well.

Right.

But the point being that in all of those instances I mentioned, the CORE of the team was built through the DRAFT.

Unlike the Chiefs of years past, where the RB, WR, WR, QB, C, LT and LG were all free-agent signings.

I mean, give me a fucking break.

This team needs to have at least 16 draftees starting. That's 75% of the roster. Until they can do that successfully, this team is going to continue to suck.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 07:53 PM
The 2000 Ravens don't make it through the playoffs without Sharpe. Siragusa and Adams were FA's as well.

And also the New England Patriots would not have won SB's without guys like Rodney Harrison, Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Roosevelt Colvin...A big part of their defense was built through FA

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:56 PM
Pierce hasn't been with the Giants since '01. He's been with them since '05, signing as a FA from the Redskins.

Kareem McKenzie was a FA and is their best o-lineman. Sam Madison was a FA. Burress was a FA. Mitchell was a FA for them.

I'm as anti-FA as anyone, but the Giants had 1/4 of their starting lineup come from free agency, many of whom were key parts of that team.

My bad on Pierce.

But 75% draftees and 25% free agency sounds like a winning combination to me.

Instead of the Chiefs philosophy, which has been the exact opposite for the better part of two decades.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:57 PM
And also the New England Patriots would not have won SB's without guys like Rodney Harrison, Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Roosevelt Colvin...A big part of their defense was built through FA

Colvin didn't do shit.

Vrabel was waived by the Steelers. Stupid move on their part.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 07:58 PM
Colvin was an awful signing by them.

People don't realize how many FA LBs the Pats have whiffed on. It's pretty amazing, actually.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 07:58 PM
Colvin didn't do shit.

Vrabel was waived by the Steelers. Stupid move on their part.

Ok fine.

then i'll throw in vinatieri?

he was a FA acquisition. They would not have won without vinatieri.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 07:59 PM
If you don't think Plaxico Burress who is their best receiver and Antonio Pierce their MLB are 2 of their most important players and better than a majority of the guys you listed then hey that's on you.

In overall talent level? No way.

I'd take Strahan, Kiawanuka, Tuck and Eli Manning over Pierce and Burress (he's a fucking loon to boot).

Especially considering that QB and D-Line is much more difficult to scout and develop than a middle linebacker or a wide receiver.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 08:00 PM
Ok fine.

then i'll throw in vinatieri?

he was a FA acquisition. They would not have won without vinatieri.

If all the Colts needed from free agency was a kicker to win the Super Bowl, that's some damn good drafting.

When have the Chiefs been a "kicker" away from the Super Bowl?

RedThat
11-26-2008, 08:00 PM
Colvin was an awful signing by them.

People don't realize how many FA LBs the Pats have whiffed on. It's pretty amazing, actually.

Even Adalius Thomas. He hasnt done much in NE.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 08:03 PM
Hey Mecca,

We should set up a porn star mock draft in draft planet.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 08:05 PM
Hey Mecca,

We should set up a porn star mock draft in draft planet.

I'll take Audrey Bitoni in the first

RedThat
11-26-2008, 08:05 PM
If all the Colts needed from free agency was a kicker to win the Super Bowl, that's some damn good drafting.

When have the Chiefs been a "kicker" away from the Super Bowl?

Colts got lucky imo. They played really bad offenses that year, and managed to win a boxing match with the Pats at home. If that game is in Foxborough they lose imo.

Very seldomly do SB teams win with a bad defense. Especially with one of the worst rush defenses ever? They had a bad defense. I still think there defense sucks, they did a poor job of drafting on that side of the ball. But, i give them credit they stepped up when they needed to and caught some breaks playing bad offensive teams.

Freeney and Sanders are exceptions for them. The rest of the guys on that defense are nothing special.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-26-2008, 08:05 PM
I'll take Audrey Bitoni in the first

FUCK YOU!!

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 08:08 PM
Colts got lucky imo. They played really bad offenses that year, and managed to win a boxing match with the Pats at home. If that game is in Foxborough they lose imo.

Very seldomly do SB teams win with a bad defense. Especially with one of the worst rush defenses ever? They had a bad defense. I still think there defense sucks, they did a poor job of drafting on that side of the ball. But, i give them credit they stepped up when they needed to and caught some breaks playing bad offensive teams.

Freeney and Sanders are exceptions for them. The rest of the guys on that defense are nothing special.

Yeah right, whatever. :rolleyes:

Super Bowl teams do not get "lucky".

JFC.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 08:08 PM
FUCK YOU!!

ROFL

Mecca
11-26-2008, 08:09 PM
Hey Mecca,

We should set up a porn star mock draft in draft planet.

That sounds like a pretty amusing idea.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 08:21 PM
Yeah right, whatever. :rolleyes:

Super Bowl teams do not get "lucky".

JFC.

Yes they do. Luck is a big part of success.

dallaschiefsfan
11-26-2008, 08:40 PM
I have no comments on your draft thoughts...too early to comment IMO.

As for the rest of your plan, I think it's pretty horrible because of the premise. Any plan with Herm is handicapped...no matter what we do. Herm excluded, I am game for two particular moves you mention. Stinchcomb and Vilma would be solid plus moves. NO FREAKING WAY to Losman and the general idea of having a vet QB unless it's a proven winner that's brought in with the express purpose of playing for 1-2 years until our newly drafted QB is ready. Might as well keep Thigpen as the starter otherwise.

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 08:45 PM
Yes they do. Luck is a big part of success.

Bullshit.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 09:01 PM
Bullshit.

Really? wow.

:spock:

Okaaaaaaay then.. The Steelers "immaculate reception that year" that beat the Raiders and led them to winning the bowl? No luck there?

DaneMcCloud
11-26-2008, 09:37 PM
Really? wow.

:spock:

Okaaaaaaay then.. The Steelers "immaculate reception that year" that beat the Raiders and led them to winning the bowl? No luck there?

No.

Are you telling me that the Pittsburgh Steelers (4 Super Bowls), San Francisco 49ers (5 Super Bowls), Dallas Cowboys (5 Super Bowls) and New England Patriots (3 Super Bowls) were lucky?

You're out of your mind.

Were the Bills and Vikings "unlucky" to each get to four Super Bowls and lose?

Luck is only for the losers, hoping to win.

RedThat
11-26-2008, 10:13 PM
No.

Are you telling me that the Pittsburgh Steelers (4 Super Bowls), San Francisco 49ers (5 Super Bowls), Dallas Cowboys (5 Super Bowls) and New England Patriots (3 Super Bowls) were lucky?

You're out of your mind.

Were the Bills and Vikings "unlucky" to each get to four Super Bowls and lose?

Luck is only for the losers, hoping to win.

Dude its about getting the good breaks and the bad breaks. Ever heard of that?

Why did Buffalo and the Vikings lose in those SBs? Because they got a lot of bad breaks. Lot of things did not go their way. Why hasn't Marty ever been to a bowl? Hes had bad breaks throughout his career that has part to do with it. That all factors into "bad" luck.

And of course, some teams get the good breaks. Vice Versa. That "tuck" rule they called on Brady when the whole world knew it was a fumble was a difference for the Pats that year. Thats a fumble, game over. Simple as that. Some teams get things to go their way. Some don't.

it happens in professional sports all the time..Even in baseball..the Cubs and the Bosox experienced a great deal of "bad" luck..Remember Bill Buckners error when he misfielded the easy ground ball that went threw his legs. He gets that, boston woulda prolly won the world series. What about that fan in Chicago that caught that fly ball in front of Moises Alou in the NLCS championship game? What happens if Alou caught that ball? it woulda been 3 outs, instead it was 2 and Marlins rallied to win the game..Had that ball been caught Cubs woulda prolly advanced to the world series.

If you don't believe in any of that, or don't see how some teams get lucky bounces that factor to winning games and how some teams get bad bounces that factor into losing then you're just being delusional.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Back to the FA talk:

Suggs should be at the top of the list. 1st play of the game, hits the QB's arm, causing the INT. We need this kind of pressure.

Mays in round 1. Suggs in FA. Nice start to fixing a horrid D--shouldn't it already be fixed with our defensive-minded coach in year 3?...

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 07:35 PM
And again. Is that what it looks like when a D-lineman can influence a game, in a positive way, I mean?

aturnis
12-07-2008, 07:56 PM
Dude its about getting the good breaks and the bad breaks. Ever heard of that?

Why did Buffalo and the Vikings lose in those SBs? Because they got a lot of bad breaks. Lot of things did not go their way. Why hasn't Marty ever been to a bowl? Hes had bad breaks throughout his career that has part to do with it. That all factors into "bad" luck.

And of course, some teams get the good breaks. Vice Versa. That "tuck" rule they called on Brady when the whole world knew it was a fumble was a difference for the Pats that year. Thats a fumble, game over. Simple as that. Some teams get things to go their way. Some don't.

it happens in professional sports all the time..Even in baseball..the Cubs and the Bosox experienced a great deal of "bad" luck..Remember Bill Buckners error when he misfielded the easy ground ball that went threw his legs. He gets that, boston woulda prolly won the world series. What about that fan in Chicago that caught that fly ball in front of Moises Alou in the NLCS championship game? What happens if Alou caught that ball? it woulda been 3 outs, instead it was 2 and Marlins rallied to win the game..Had that ball been caught Cubs woulda prolly advanced to the world series.

If you don't believe in any of that, or don't see how some teams get lucky bounces that factor to winning games and how some teams get bad bounces that factor into losing then you're just being delusional.

You are right and Dane is wrong. Though he, like a few others, would never admit that. There are a few end all be all opinions on this board. They are VERY annoying. They do contribute, but it get VERY old.

The LUCKIEST thing that ever happened to the Patriots was Tom Brady.