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View Full Version : Chiefs Bill Kuharich on the way out?


Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 04:42 PM
Potentially very good news. If Bill K isn't here it's gonna be tough to find a "promote from within" GM.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/11/29/lions-looking-at-old-school-gm/

The Detroit Lions are compiling a list of candidates for the position of General Manager. Per a league source, the Lions currently are looking at a quintet of old-school candidates.

The list, we’re told, includes former Packers G.M. Ron Wolf, former Giants G.M. Ernie Accorsi, former Texans and Redskins G.M. Charley Casserly, former Bills G.M. Tom Donahoe, and Chiefs V.P. of player personnel Bill Kuharich, who previously served as G.M. of the Saints.

Wolf and Accorsi currently are retired, and Casserly has spent the past two years working as an on-air analyst for CBS. Donahoe hasn’t been heard from since being fired by the Bills earlier this decade.

The job currently is held by Martin Mayhew, who was promoted into the role after CEO Matt Millen was fired in September. It’s unknown whether he’ll be retained by the new regime.

In a recent item at SportingNews.com, we pondered the fact that Patriots V.P. of player personnel Scott Pioli doesn’t have a team of his own to run, and we pointed out that the turnaround of the Dolphins under his father-in-law Bill Parcells, the resurrection of the Falcons under Pioli’s protege Thomas Dimitroff, and Pioli’s role in the discovery of two of the best low-round quarterbacks in recent years if not ever (Tom Brady and Matt Cassel) should make him a candidate for any G.M. job that comes open this year.

Apparently, the Lions don’t feel the same way. Which isn’t all that surprising, since they’re the Lions.

Ebolapox
11-29-2008, 04:44 PM
yeah. pioli's in a huge hurry to leave the good thing he has in new england

chiefs1111
11-29-2008, 04:45 PM
I hope he goes

Guru
11-29-2008, 04:45 PM
We can't be that lucky.

Deberg_1990
11-29-2008, 04:46 PM
I wish Clark would look at Ron Wolf.

chiefs1111
11-29-2008, 04:49 PM
I wish Clark would look at Ron Wolf.

Yeah me to,but this is Clark we are talking about....

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 04:51 PM
Yeah me to,but this Clark we are talking about....

Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

Ebolapox
11-29-2008, 04:52 PM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.

it isn't difficult, this english language thing. 'this clark we are talking about'--wait, which clark are we talking about? clark griswald? lewis and clark? ratchet and clark? clark cooper?

oh... this IS clark we're talking about. makes much more sense, huh?

Ebolapox
11-29-2008, 04:53 PM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.

it isn't difficult, this english language thing. 'this clark we are talking about'--wait, which clark are we talking about? clark griswald? lewis and clark? ratchet and clark? clark cooper?

oh... this IS clark we're talking about. makes much more sense, huh?

perhaps clark gable?

JASONSAUTO
11-29-2008, 04:55 PM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

agreed the guy hasnt been on the job long enough to judge

chiefs1111
11-29-2008, 05:01 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Chris Polian as the next GM....

blueballs
11-29-2008, 05:07 PM
Carl Peterson could be on that list
but don't want to be hit with possible fine
since it would not be a move up

Phobia
11-29-2008, 05:08 PM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.

it isn't difficult, this english language thing. 'this clark we are talking about'--wait, which clark are we talking about? clark griswald? lewis and clark? ratchet and clark? clark cooper?

oh... this IS clark we're talking about. makes much more sense, huh?

If you're that particular about the use of "too" then you should at least capitalize proper nouns, especially when used in vain.

chiefs1111
11-29-2008, 05:08 PM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.

it isn't difficult, this english language thing. 'this clark we are talking about'--wait, which clark are we talking about? clark griswald? lewis and clark? ratchet and clark? clark cooper?

oh... this IS clark we're talking about. makes much more sense, huh?



Well,after downing a case of beer,it can be difficult

Deberg_1990
11-29-2008, 05:13 PM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.



You talk to much.

chiefzilla1501
11-29-2008, 05:13 PM
I still don't understand why we insist that everyone in the front office is incompetent. Kuharich has done a pretty decent job so far. I would argue that in 2 years, we'll look at the 2008 draft as one of the best in team history.

Kuharich and Chuck Cook are not the problem. The mess is 95% the fault of Carl Peterson and Denny thum and Lynn Stiles. Kuharich basically inherited this mess and I think he's done a pretty decent job so far.

I don't want him as GM, but I like him as a personnel guy. And I'd much rather him at GM than my greatest fear--Terry Bradway (Carl Peterson Jr.... Mini-Carl).

Deberg_1990
11-29-2008, 05:14 PM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

YOu have alot more faith than i have.

His silence speaks volumes.

Ebolapox
11-29-2008, 05:16 PM
You talk to much.

gah.

Deberg_1990
11-29-2008, 05:19 PM
gah.

Same two you.

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 05:19 PM
I still don't understand why we insist that everyone in the front office is incompetent. Kuharich has done a pretty decent job so far. I would argue that in 2 years, we'll look at the 2008 draft as one of the best in team history.

Kuharich and Chuck Cook are not the problem. The mess is 95% the fault of Carl Peterson and Denny thum and Lynn Stiles. Kuharich basically inherited this mess and I think he's done a pretty decent job so far.

I don't want him as GM, but I like him as a personnel guy. And I'd much rather him at GM than my greatest fear--Terry Bradway (Carl Peterson Jr.... Mini-Carl).

I actually like both K and Cook. But keeping them around means more Herm.

StcChief
11-29-2008, 05:20 PM
You talk to much.and say nothing in the process.

Reerun_KC
11-29-2008, 05:20 PM
A glimmer of hope for the future...

Another worthless Cronie about to move out!

Nero's Neptune
11-29-2008, 05:36 PM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

ok...but I've got a sneakin' suspicion that nothings is going to change next year....except perhaps Carl will be phased out of player personnel decisions and only work on the stadium stuff, etc....while Kuharich takes over the other GM stuff involving players...which would not be good enough for me. At this point, anyone who thinks Herm Edwards is a winning football coach just doesn't get it...

Nero's Neptune
11-29-2008, 05:38 PM
I still don't understand why we insist that everyone in the front office is incompetent. Kuharich has done a pretty decent job so far. I would argue that in 2 years, we'll look at the 2008 draft as one of the best in team history.

Kuharich and Chuck Cook are not the problem. The mess is 95% the fault of Carl Peterson and Denny thum and Lynn Stiles. Kuharich basically inherited this mess and I think he's done a pretty decent job so far.

I don't want him as GM, but I like him as a personnel guy. And I'd much rather him at GM than my greatest fear--Terry Bradway (Carl Peterson Jr.... Mini-Carl).


this may all be true, but just remember that Herm has aligned himself VERY closely with Kuharich....... so, you'd better be careful what you wish for.

BigRock
11-29-2008, 06:08 PM
And I'd much rather have him at GM than my greatest fear--Terry Bradway

Boom goes the thread.

penchief
11-29-2008, 06:25 PM
I still don't understand why we insist that everyone in the front office is incompetent. Kuharich has done a pretty decent job so far. I would argue that in 2 years, we'll look at the 2008 draft as one of the best in team history.

Kuharich and Chuck Cook are not the problem. The mess is 95% the fault of Carl Peterson and Denny thum and Lynn Stiles. Kuharich basically inherited this mess and I think he's done a pretty decent job so far.

I don't want him as GM, but I like him as a personnel guy. And I'd much rather him at GM than my greatest fear--Terry Bradway (Carl Peterson Jr.... Mini-Carl).

I agree. I think he's done pretty good with the drafts. Compared to the job that was done before he got here, I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

Big Chief Homer
11-29-2008, 06:45 PM
this may all be true, but just remember that Herm has aligned himself VERY closely with Kuharich....... so, you'd better be careful what you wish for.




Well thats good because I wish Kuharich would go to the lions.........

and take Herm with him.



Maybe dreams do come true.:thumb:

Deberg_1990
11-29-2008, 06:53 PM
At this point, anyone who thinks Herm Edwards is a winning football coach just doesn't get it...

18-41 since 2005!

He just needs some time.... ROFL

chiefzilla1501
11-29-2008, 07:36 PM
this may all be true, but just remember that Herm has aligned himself VERY closely with Kuharich....... so, you'd better be careful what you wish for.

If the organization were to make the right decisions, they would keep Kuharich at VP - personnel and give Herm a fair, critical evaluation in 2009.

Kuharich may work well with Herm, but as VP - personnel, he doesn't get to make the call as to whether Herm stays or not. That will hopefully be the decision of the next GM who I expect will be in KC after 2009. That is, unless it's Terry Bradway, in which case his ridiculous croneyism and Carl Peterson school of hard knocks general management will probably bring Kurt Schottenheimer in to be the next coach of KC.

cdcox
11-29-2008, 07:51 PM
I still don't understand why we insist that everyone in the front office is incompetent. Kuharich has done a pretty decent job so far. I would argue that in 2 years, we'll look at the 2008 draft as one of the best in team history.

Kuharich and Chuck Cook are not the problem. The mess is 95% the fault of Carl Peterson and Denny thum and Lynn Stiles. Kuharich basically inherited this mess and I think he's done a pretty decent job so far.

I don't want him as GM, but I like him as a personnel guy. And I'd much rather him at GM than my greatest fear--Terry Bradway (Carl Peterson Jr.... Mini-Carl).

1. Clearing the whole house would, for the first time in 20 years, send a signal that there was a commitment to winning and that people in the FO would be held accountable. Promoting a guy from within that has been part of the system would be business as usual. This franchise just can't do that at this stage. It would be worse than leaving everything the same for another year.

2. Why do we set up a false choice between Bradway and Kuharich? It's like saying we shouldn't dump Herm because we don't want Dick Curl to be the head coach. There are other choices.

cdcox
11-29-2008, 07:59 PM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly.

He's burning credibility with the fan base quickly by 1) keeping Herm after last season and 2) going to the soccer game over a Chiefs game and 3) being so far under the salary cap. Individually they are no big thing, but collectively the balance is starting to tip. He looks like a profit-hungry, disinterested owner that values loyalty over winning, which was the problem that his dad had over the last 35 years. I basically gave his dad a pass from criticism because 1) he was the prime driving force of doubling the size of the NFL, 2) he brought the Chiefs to KC, 3) he won a SB. Clark has done nothing -- he has to make his own bones.

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 08:04 PM
He's burning credibility with the fan base quickly by 1) keeping Herm after last season and 2) going to the soccer game over a Chiefs game and 3) being so far under the salary cap. Individually they are no big thing, but collectively the balance is starting to tip. He looks like a profit-hungry, disinterested owner that values loyalty over winning, which was the problem that his dad had over the last 35 years. I basically gave his dad a pass from criticism because 1) he was the prime driving force of doubling the size of the NFL, 2) he brought the Chiefs to KC, 3) he won a SB. Clark has done nothing -- he has to make his own bones.

I agree with this...I just think he deserves a fair chance to do the right thing this offseason.

If he doesn't, there's my breaking point.

milkman
11-29-2008, 08:24 PM
If the organization were to make the right decisions, they would keep Kuharich at VP - personnel and give Herm a fair, critical evaluation in 2009.

Kuharich may work well with Herm, but as VP - personnel, he doesn't get to make the call as to whether Herm stays or not. That will hopefully be the decision of the next GM who I expect will be in KC after 2009. That is, unless it's Terry Bradway, in which case his ridiculous croneyism and Carl Peterson school of hard knocks general management will probably bring Kurt Schottenheimer in to be the next coach of KC.

Okay, I take back what I said in the other thread.

The idea to keep Herman fucking Edwards, or any part of the FO, is actually the stupidest fucking idea ever.

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 08:31 PM
I think the biggest problem with promoting Kuharich is that basically, you give Herm all the power in the organization. Does anyone here think there's a chance in hell Kuharich would ever fire Herm?

I think Herm has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't handle that kind of power. He's not Bill Parcells.

Ultra Peanut
11-29-2008, 08:42 PM
But Sir Chiefs of Goington, we already HAVE a GM.

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 08:42 PM
But Sir Chiefs of Goington

OMG

I WANT A NAME CHANGE RIGHT NOW

Ultra Peanut
11-29-2008, 08:47 PM
Hey, then SHTSPRAYER could be Claythan!

BigRock
11-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Does anyone here think there's a chance in hell Kuharich would ever fire Herm?

Is that a serious question?

Kuharich has been in the NFL for over 20 years. For only 3 of those years has he had any kind of link to Herm Edwards, and that link only developed because Kuharich was already working here when Herm got hired.

They worked together well on the draft, and now you think they're completely inseparable? That Kuharich would NEVER fire him?

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 08:56 PM
Is that a serious question?

Kuharich has been in the NFL for over 20 years. For only 3 of those years has he had any kind of link to Herm Edwards, and that link only developed because Kuharich was already working here when Herm got hired.

They worked together well on the draft, and now you think they're completely inseparable? That Kuharich would NEVER fire him?

Yeah, I do, actually.

The only reason Kuharich's name has been bandied about as Chiefs GM is because Herm supposedly ripped power from Carl Peterson last year.

I don't see Kuharich as having any real power. He'd just be the "defacto" GM while Carl was kicked upstairs.

Herm would be calling the shots. The real power behind the throne.

JMO.

BigRock
11-29-2008, 09:05 PM
He looks like a profit-hungry, disinterested owner

The Chiefs are spending $83 million in payroll this year. Over the last five years, they've averaged $88 million in payroll. So they are still shelling out the same relative amount of money they've been spending.

However, with half the seats at Arrowhead getting sold to ticket brokers at discount prices these days, there's not a chance they're pulling in the same money they've been making over the last 5 years.

I'm not a financial planner, but continuing to spend the same sum of money while not bringing in as much of it doesn't strike me like a sound strategy. So I'd really like to hear why Clark Hunt looks so "profit-hungry".

cdcox
11-29-2008, 09:15 PM
The Chiefs are spending $83 million in payroll this year. Over the last five years, they've averaged $88 million in payroll. So they are still shelling out the same relative amount of money they've been spending.

However, with half the seats at Arrowhead getting sold to ticket brokers at discount prices these days, there's not a chance they're pulling in the same money they've been making over the last 5 years.

I'm not a financial planner, but continuing to spend the same sum of money while not bringing in as much of it doesn't strike me like a sound strategy. So I'd really like to hear why Clark Hunt looks so "profit-hungry".

They are spending less when they are allowed to spend more. As a percentage of the salary cap, spending is way down.

Furthermore, the decisions on contracts (which determine spending) were made way before the revenue tailed off. At no point did the Hunts decide "Revenues are down, but we are going to keep spending because we are going to keep spending any way." The decisions about spending were made before knowledge of income came to light -- unless you want to make the argument that the Chiefs knew they were going to stink when they signed the contracts.

BigRock
11-29-2008, 09:17 PM
The only reason Kuharich's name has been bandied about as Chiefs GM is because Herm supposedly ripped power from Carl Peterson last year.

Kuharich's name comes up for the GM job because he's a former GM in the league, Carl is supposed to retire in '09, and Kuharich's job as VP of Player Personnel basically makes him the next guy in the line of succession. Especially since Denny Thum is more of a numbers guy.

Kuharich isn't just talked about for the GM job here, his name regularly surfaces in other places. He has options. Where is this idea coming from that he'd just be some powerless puppet where Herm has all the control?

Douche Baggins
11-29-2008, 09:28 PM
Kuharich's name comes up for the GM job because he's a former GM in the league, Carl is supposed to retire in '09, and Kuharich's job as VP of Player Personnel basically makes him the next guy in the line of succession. Especially since Denny Thum is more of a numbers guy.

Kuharich isn't just talked about for the GM job here, his name regularly surfaces in other places. He has options. Where is this idea coming from that he'd just be some powerless puppet where Herm has all the control?

Just my opinion, that's all.

You promote someone over a guy's head, it doesn't seem to me to be a situation where he has much power.

booger
11-29-2008, 09:36 PM
I think to put Kuharich in the same categorie as Bradway is unfair. After leaving to go the Jets, Bradway hired Herm and had input on previous KC coachs like hackett, raye, etc who joined on. Not unlike Carl and keeping everything inside the family. Plus now Bradway took a demotion to just the personell director with Tannenbaum as the GM that hired Mangini.

Now before we move on to Kuharich lets look at Carl. He does bring some good talent into the personell department. One which i wouldn't put into the good side is Lynn Stiles. This goes way back to DV and Stiles coaching at UCLA and Carl begging and getting a job on the staff as WR coach. Then they all moved on with DV to Philly were DV told Carl he was best suited for the personell department. Then later Stiles moves on to Bill Walsh's staff with the 49ers coaching TE's I think. Now when Walsh is done, back to Carl who is now in KC but this time to work in the personell dept. DV returns to caoching and Stiles goes off to STL coaching TE's one year then not to personell because the Rams are set their with President John Shaw, GM Charley Aremey etc but director of football operations. Logistical guy assisting the coaches from a front office position.

DV retires and back to KC to take over for the just departed Bradway goes Stiles. This time to run the draft. First for Gun as the HC and they both listened to the coach and drafted who he wanted as they later will do with DV. That's why DV even stated a few times that Kuharich and some of the other personell people must hate him because when it comes to bringing in a player it was always them bringing back someone that attented training camp, not many outsiders, Quinton Caver being a rare example.

Which takes us to 06-currently and the change of Philosophy and quite drastically this season in General.

And while on the subject yes, of course Herm was the HC who was on board with such a movement and very much infavor. He could see like many others that DV left him with a roster of talent vets but only with so much time left and didn't draft well at all to develop depth behind them and hopefully groom some as replacement starters.

Also interesting to note is Herm's q/a, one of them this week saying that no organization, GM, HC, etc, not many anyway want to go through this because of the pain and losing plus uproar of the fanbase could likely cost some jobs. And that wasn't suprising to me. At his introductory PC, Herm basically said he never really wanted to be a HC. He was a db coach at San Jose St. for 3 years after retiring. Then he wanted to try scouting and Carl hired him. That's were he found what he liked and in that press conference that comes from him saying he didn't want to be a HC put develop a career in the front office. But Tony Dungy comes along and he and herm new each other from college all star games just prior to their NFL days. Dungy gets him as his asst coaching DB's. Dungy gets hired as DC in Minny and who takes over in kc? Not herm but Kurt Schottenheimer. Herm gets back into the scouting deptartment this time just focusing on pro personell. Until Dungy gets a HC job in Tampa and brings along Herm to groom him as a future HC. Not because he wanted to. He was Happy in KC and wanted to continue twards a FO career. Dungy basically convinces him he "has to" because they were in a positon Dungy as one of very few at the time and hopefully later Herm would become African/American HC's, etc. Those were herms words, the best i could remember them from his first PC in KC.

Brings me back to 'good hires' and that's a guy like Chuck Cook. An area scout already on staff when Carl arives in 89, he is later promoted to director of college scouting. It's a good fit for him as his father was a longtime pro scout. On the scouting trail he not only finds talent on the field but also scouts like Thomas Dimitrioff ( area scout in KC later learns under Scott Pioli and now a known name as GM of the falcons in a very good first season in which he hired a HC in Mike Smith that not many thought of and i don't think had a past with Dimitrioff) and a guy like Jeff Ireland( Dallas director of pro scouting who was a scout under cook and this season hired as Parcells GM in Miami where they brought the same approach Parcells implemented in Dallas).

He also promoted Denny Thum who started off as an accountant for the team seven years before Carl came and then promoted to asst GM on Carl's arrival. Not a football guy in the scouting/personell sense but does a good job with the business side of things and now the salary cap. Not a guy maybe you would want as your next GM but maybe team president or Chief Fianancial officer or chief opporations officer in charge of seeing over the business side, sales, marketing, stadium operations, and hiring those types of people under him.

Now back to Kuharich. Yeah he got his start from Carl in the USFL as asst GM. Then on to the saints to work under then GM Jim Finks. Finks also hires a USFL man as his HC, Jim Mora. They draft well all through all rounds of the draft and the college FA's. Very close to the same approach now where we let the Personell department and the scouting staff have the biggest input on the information available on the players and the coaches tell them what type of player to look for. And when draft desicions are made, it comes down to the GM listening to all his personell/scouting staff, not just who he and the HC want. Later promoted to GM and then the 3 titles like Carl has now GM/PRES/CEO. Makes a huge mistake when Ditka HAS to have ricky williams and they trade all their picks to move up and get him. That's a carl mistake there but the owner did side with dikta and Kuharich didn't have much of a choice and was later made the scape goat. Along with the williams trade you would hope that he would see the 3 titles don't work out so well. And back working with carl the last 8 years i would hope he would see that as obvious. But that would fall on the owner that hires him.

What we don't know is if he would retain Herm. The same time Herm was hired they did bring in another member of the pro personell staff in director of Pro personell, Kuharichs first job when coming to KC, in hiring Ray Farmer. His moves of using the practice squad as also an audition squad/extended stay workout if you will, while scouting all leagues of pro football fits in to finding talent wherever available and not just relieing on bringing back the guy who attended training camp has fit in well. Farmer came from Atlanta where Kevin Winston is the director of player development. His brother Lamont holds the same title with KC. Lamont is a former scout so he also knows a few things about talent, not only players but scouts as well.

I've just read a few articles over the net over the years that say the same thing. While their may be to many people making descisions in KC they don't listen to who they should when they need too. During the DV years him Carl and Stiles controlled the first day picks. The second day picks they listened to input from the scouts like cook, etc. Also articles applauding the Farmer hiring and suprised that it was a team like KC that landed him. Wasn't a KC type of move to hire a young rising talent.

So while the results and game day coaching currently are in obvious question and that is very fair IMO, I don't think you can call guys like Kuharich and Cook Carls cronies and assume bad things. They are respected other places. Kuharich gets the interviews but hasn't yet been offered a job so maybe he does want too much control. And we don't know yet his feelings on the coaching staff including Herm. Just because they are on the same page as far as players doesn't mean they agree or even discuss coaching. That is still Carl's job, anything he hasn't given Herm full control over, not Kuharichs.

I'd love to see a guy like Eric DeCosta from the ravens (director of college scouting) or others have mentioned Chris Polian. I agree Clark has to at least look outside the org and look.

But if he were to hire Kuharich as GM only (he's already stated that once carl goes he will restructure and have 1 person in each role as president and 1 as GM) i could see promoting guys like Farmer, Cook, and Bruce Lemmerman(Cook's right hand man as Scouting Coordinator and very well respected in the league) could be looked at as good moves because they actually do their jobs very well and not Carl Cronies.

BigRock
11-29-2008, 09:45 PM
They are spending less when they are allowed to spend more. As a percentage of the salary cap, spending is way down.

What do you think, that Clark gets to pocket that unspent cap money? The team's spending "as a percentage of the salary cap" has nothing to do with their bottom line.

As mentioned, they're spending right about the same amount this year that they've averaged over the last 5 years. There is, however, no chance they're bringing in the same amount of money that they've been making over the last five years. Those are the figures that matter.

Furthermore, the decisions on contracts (which determine spending) were made way before the revenue tailed off. At no point did the Hunts decide "Revenues are down, but we are going to keep spending because we are going to keep spending any way." The decisions about spending were made before knowledge of income came to light -- unless you want to make the argument that the Chiefs knew they were going to stink when they signed the contracts.

The decisions on spending aren't the issue. They're always going to have to spend money. It's how much they MAKE that's ultimately going to determine how much profit they get. And people aren't going to the games. When they do go, they're spending far less for the tickets.

If Clark Hunt was so "profit-hungry", he'd be trying to raise the bottom line by finding ways to lure people back into the stadium. Such as firing Herm, going out and grabbing some veteran QB like McNabb, blah blah blah. The same old formula that Carl has been perfecting for 20 years. Shoot for 8-8 and keep the stadium full.

It seems to me that a "profit hungry" owner would want to see that old Carl plan continue on indefinitely. Instead, our "disinterested" owner got involved by stepping on Carl's plan and squashing it this last offseason when he gave Herm the authority to start a rebuild.

cdcox
11-29-2008, 10:11 PM
What do you think, that Clark gets to pocket that unspent cap money?

The team's spending "as a percentage of the salary cap" has nothing to do with their bottom line.

Do you think the NFL taxes every NFL team the amount of the cap, regardless if they spend it on salaries or not? If he doesn't spend it, it stays in his pocket. What do you think happens to unspent cap money?


It seems to me that a "profit hungry" owner would want to see that old Carl plan continue on indefinitely. Instead, our "disinterested" owner got involved by stepping on Carl's plan and squashing it this last offseason when he gave Herm the authority to start a rebuild.

I mentioned loyalty, too. I would have never brought Herm in, so it's hard for me to objectively judge when he should be let go. I could see keeping him after last season if Clark really thought he was the guy. But if he keeps Herm after this season, I'm pretty confident you could say he's overvaluing loyalty.

We've won an average of 1 playoff game a decade over the last 35 years. The only constant during that time has been the Hunt's ownership. They have not held the people that run their football operations accountable on a consistent basis over that time period. I don't think any one can argue with that.

TEX
11-29-2008, 10:32 PM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

I disagree. Some of us knew Herm and Croyle BLEW the second they came to KC. Some folks like yourself took the approach you're suggesting we take with Clark. You were dead wrong and you are here too. Clark has shown thus far to be a lame ass absantee owner - who actually came out and said that Herm and Carl were doing a "good job." In my opinion, that is more than enough for anyone to judge him as being pretty lame. If he does something to change that, then I'll change my opinion but I won't give any benefits of any doubt before I see something.

Darth CarlSatan
11-29-2008, 10:45 PM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

That's logical.

That said, you must admit that this off season will both define Clark Hunt, and spell out pretty damned quickly where his priorities lie. Is it the same old "loyalty, and let the contracts run their course"? Or are we dealing with an owner who want's to keep his word and win?

blueballs
11-29-2008, 10:58 PM
Did you eat CrazyCoffee's soul

Darth CarlSatan
11-29-2008, 11:10 PM
Did you eat CrazyCoffee's soul

I eat Souls on a regular basis; they're yummy! :evil:

BigRock
11-30-2008, 01:20 AM
Do you think the NFL taxes every NFL team the amount of the cap, regardless if they spend it on salaries or not? If he doesn't spend it, it stays in his pocket. What do you think happens to unspent cap money?

You're trying to create income where there is no income. Your position is that by not spending more money under the salary cap, Clark is making a profit from the money he already has in his bank account. It doesn't work that way.

When the team continues to spend at the same level they've been spending, not using all the available room under the salary cap doesn't somehow translate into Clark making more money. It just means he's not losing more.

I guarantee you that everyone who trots out the "all Clark cares about is making a profit" argument is doing the exact same thing, only talking about unspent salary cap money, which has no bearing on the actual team finances. They have no idea that the Chiefs are paying $2 million more in salary this year than they were in '06, while losing who knows how many times that amount.

Darth CarlSatan
11-30-2008, 01:38 AM
You're trying to create income where there is no income. Your position is that by not spending more money under the salary cap, Clark is making a profit from the money he already has in his bank account. It doesn't work that way.

When the team continues to spend at the same level they've been spending, not using all the available room under the salary cap doesn't somehow translate into Clark making more money. It just means he's not losing more.

I guarantee you that everyone who trots out the "all Clark cares about is making a profit" argument is doing the exact same thing, only talking about unspent salary cap money, which has no bearing on the actual team finances. They have no idea that the Chiefs are paying $2 million more in salary this year than they were in '06, while losing who knows how many times that amount.

Are you saying that none of that 31 million is going to construction costs?

orange
11-30-2008, 02:10 AM
You're trying to create income where there is no income. Your position is that by not spending more money under the salary cap, Clark is making a profit from the money he already has in his bank account. It doesn't work that way.

When the team continues to spend at the same level they've been spending, not using all the available room under the salary cap doesn't somehow translate into Clark making more money. It just means he's not losing more.

I guarantee you that everyone who trots out the "all Clark cares about is making a profit" argument is doing the exact same thing, only talking about unspent salary cap money, which has no bearing on the actual team finances. They have no idea that the Chiefs are paying $2 million more in salary this year than they were in '06, while losing who knows how many times that amount.


This is ridiculous. The salary cap went up - BECAUSE REVENUES WENT UP. The cap is a fixed percentage of revenues.

Yes - Clark Hunt is pocketing more money by not spending it on salaries.

Smed1065
11-30-2008, 04:51 AM
With the increase and inflation, Wow 2 million more than 06? They signed some rookies in the 1st round is the only reason. Hello! NFL revenue is shared and it has increased since 2006. I bet it has increased more than 2 million per team even.

Douche Baggins
12-19-2008, 01:06 AM
Posts like this are unfair. I don't think we really know enough about Clark at this point to judge him so harshly. Maybe you're pissed off because he didn't fire all the dumbasses in midseason, but that's really a pretty rash course of action.

If he keeps them all this offseason or god forbid extends their contracts, then be pissed. Right now, I think we have to give Clark his chance.

Oh yeah. YEAH!

Darth CarlSatan
12-19-2008, 01:29 AM
Oh yeah. YEAH!

Word. I think Clark surprised the FUCK out of this fan base. I expect him to make bold moves from here on out.

No hyperbole, just great chess.

Tribal Warfare
12-19-2008, 01:42 AM
Yeah me to,but this is Clark we are talking about....

Dude, we don't know this guys thought process hell he blindsided most Chiefs' fans by firing Carl.

Darth CarlSatan
12-19-2008, 01:55 AM
Dude, we don't know this guys thought process hell he blindsided most Chiefs' fans by firing Carl.

I can tell you this much; if Clark is a true sports businessman, there's a part of him that is feeding off of his current, high approval-rating.
I believe now that it is VERY possible he wants to take the Chiefs to a higher level than his old man did.

Boris The Great
12-19-2008, 02:14 AM
This is ridiculous. The salary cap went up - BECAUSE REVENUES WENT UP. The cap is a fixed percentage of revenues.

Revenues go up, the cap goes up, and the amount teams are forced to spend goes up. This is why the NFL is not major league baseball.

Guru
12-19-2008, 02:22 AM
Dude, we don't know this guys thought process hell he blindsided most Chiefs' fans by firing Carl.We also need to see who he hires to know if he is just off his rocker too.

Phobia
12-19-2008, 03:46 AM
Oh yeah. YEAH!

How long did it take you to find one you got right, kcjohnny?

Reerun_KC
12-19-2008, 06:14 AM
so is there still any hope on this matter?

SenselessChiefsFan
12-19-2008, 10:01 AM
Since Clark has stated that he will not promote from within, Bill is not a threat.

I don't get the Kuharich detractors though. Since he took over the draft three years ago with Herm Edwards, the Chiefs have done a MUCH better job. He has done a good job. I hope they keep him in the organization.

You don't get rid of good talent evaluators just because. An organization is a lot more that ONE guy.

I won't be surprised if he leaves, because he was brought in as the heir apparent. He was just cooling his heels until CP left. I would be fine with him as GM, but I think a change will be good for the organization.

Hoover
12-19-2008, 10:09 AM
I wouldn't mind being GM of the Chiefs.

CoMoChief
12-19-2008, 10:11 AM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.

it isn't difficult, this english language thing. 'this clark we are talking about'--wait, which clark are we talking about? clark griswald? lewis and clark? ratchet and clark? clark cooper?

oh... this IS clark we're talking about. makes much more sense, huh?

Wow, somebody needs a nap

Dave Lane
12-19-2008, 10:34 AM
I wish Clark would look at Ron Wolf.

Why not bring in a proven GM like Ron Wolf, Charlie Casserly, or bring back Matty Schottenheimer as a General Manager this time? Well, I'll tell you why. No offense to all the great things people like Ron Wolf and Charlie Casserly accomplished in their successful tenures with Green Bay and Washington (respectively), but for old timers like them the new, modern NFL has clearly passed them by. I remember the year Wolf retired, he made some comment to a reporter about how the NFL sucked now and was run by lawyers. He clearly didn't like these pesky little things like salary caps, revenue sharing, and league-focused parity. He liked it when he could draft whomever, sign them to whatever, and let them sit the bench for eternity. Same with Casserly, who tried to come back with the Houston Texans, only to get run out of their faster than David Carr (Casserly's first pick in Houston). And while some may long for the old days of Marty Ball (and the rumor mill is certainly buzzing), you must remember that I, Clark Hunt, said I wanted someone outside the organization; a "fresh set of eyes."

Mr. Laz
12-19-2008, 10:50 AM
i want Chuck Cook gone as well.


i find it very hard to believe that we could make all these crappy draft picks if Chuck Cook was such a shrewd talent evaluator.

HemiEd
12-19-2008, 10:53 AM
18-41 since 2005!

He just needs some time.... ROFL

and Gunther just needs some players.

DenverDanChiefsFan
12-19-2008, 11:01 AM
jesus. TOO. not to.

you go TO a store.

I go TO the store TOO.

the TWO of us go TO the store, TOO.

it isn't difficult, this english language thing. 'this clark we are talking about'--wait, which clark are we talking about? clark griswald? lewis and clark? ratchet and clark? clark cooper?

oh... this IS clark we're talking about. makes much more sense, huh?Come on, most of the board can't figure out the proper use of then and thanROFL

Brock
12-19-2008, 11:02 AM
PFT>WPI

Skip Towne
12-19-2008, 11:04 AM
Come on, most of the board can't figure out the proper use of then and thanROFL

And they're so close in meaning too.

Sully
12-19-2008, 11:06 AM
Can someone ask H5N1 why he wants me to go to the store with him?

Mr. Laz
12-19-2008, 11:09 AM
Come on, most of the board can't figure out the proper use of then and thanROFL
i hate that one

http://img.sparknotes.com/figures/0/08fe30ea336a30d6bd58b2f5e5faea02/topic_172.gif


Many people use than when they mean then, and vice versa.


Than, a conjunction, is used to compare things.
Then, an adverb, is used with descriptions of time
.
• Then, suddenly, Mr. Perez shouted, “I’m a better diver than you’ll ever be!”


• I think she looks dangerously skinny, but then, what do I know?

Sully
12-19-2008, 11:11 AM
i hate that one

http://img.sparknotes.com/figures/0/08fe30ea336a30d6bd58b2f5e5faea02/topic_172.gif


Many people use than when they mean then, and vice versa.


Than, a conjunction, is used to compare things.
Then, an adverb, is used with descriptions of time
.
• Then, suddenly, Mr. Perez shouted, “I’m a better diver than you’ll ever be!”


• I think she looks dangerously skinny, but then, what do I know?


I hate that, to.

Mr. Laz
12-19-2008, 11:26 AM
I hate that, to.
H5N1 is gonna kick your ass

chiefzilla1501
12-19-2008, 11:31 AM
Again, you are all throwing the wrong person under the bridge.

Bill Kuharich isn't the top GM on the block and for that reason, I don't want the Chiefs to hire him. But to say we're glad he's going is completely unfair.

Most of the blame for personnel problems can be placed on Carl Peterson and the guy before Kuharich, Lynn Stiles.

chiefzilla1501
12-19-2008, 11:33 AM
i want Chuck Cook gone as well.


i find it very hard to believe that we could make all these crappy draft picks if Chuck Cook was such a shrewd talent evaluator.

Cook has usually not had the power. From 1999-2005, the word is that Carl Peterson and Lynn Stiles ran the entire war room, and very poorly at that.

I think last year was the first year that Cook and Kuharich finally had the power to do their job. And I thought they did fine.

Maybe they should be fired. But they shouldn't be blamed.

Mr. Laz
12-19-2008, 11:43 AM
Cook has usually not had the power. From 1999-2005, the word is that Carl Peterson and Lynn Stiles ran the entire war room, and very poorly at that.

I think last year was the first year that Cook and Kuharich finally had the power to do their job. And I thought they did fine.

Maybe they should be fired. But they shouldn't be blamed.
1. your post is all conjuncture .... you/we have no idea whether the "word" was truth or crap.

you "think" last year cook finally got to do his job? :spock:

more make believe knowledge


2. so you are saying that cheap bastard King Carl actually paid Chuck Cook and a group of scouts a bunch of money when they had no intention of listening to them?

i find that very hard to believe

chiefzilla1501
12-19-2008, 12:05 PM
Given that Carl Peterson and Lynn Stiles were the bosses and the guys actually in the war room. Given that the VP Personnel and GM are typically the two guys with the loudest voice in the war room, and that most people generally believe that they control the first few rounds, whereas the scouts generally recall the latter rounds, this is not conjecture.

Given that last year, we somehow went from poor drafting to having one of the best drafts in franchise history, it's safe to say that something obviously happened. Unless you're convinced that there was a coincidence where everything just clicked.

Regardless of the power situation, the 2008 draft was one of the best that we had. So when there are multiple reports suggesting that peterson was holding back the rebuild and reports that Peterson's job was pretty much on the line from the beginning of the season, that seems to indicate to me that Kuharich and Cook finally got license to make personnel decisions without Peterson breathing down their neck.

I don't think it's "conjecture" to say that Peterson had a very negative influence on personnel decisions made over the last 10 years. I don't know much about Cook, but I do believe that regardless of the situation, Kuharich did a fabulous job with personnel in 2008.


1. your post is all conjuncture .... you/we have no idea whether the "word" was truth or crap.

you "think" last year cook finally got to do his job? :spock:

more make believe knowledge


2. so you are saying that cheap bastard King Carl actually paid Chuck Cook and a group of scouts a bunch of money when they had no intention of listening to them?

i find that very hard to believe

Fat Elvis
12-19-2008, 12:42 PM
How long did it take you to find one you got right, kcjohnny?

Not bad considering it was only 70K posts....

Darth CarlSatan
12-19-2008, 12:44 PM
i want Chuck Cook gone as well.


i find it very hard to believe that we could make all these crappy draft picks if Chuck Cook was such a shrewd talent evaluator.

Request denied. Data collectors don't make the calls.

Cook has usually not had the power. From 1999-2005, the word is that Carl Peterson and Lynn Stiles ran the entire war room, and very poorly at that.

I think last year was the first year that Cook and Kuharich finally had the power to do their job. And I thought they did fine.

Maybe they should be fired. But they shouldn't be blamed.

Possibly this.

Given that Carl Peterson and Lynn Stiles were the bosses and the guys actually in the war room. Given that the VP Personnel and GM are typically the two guys with the loudest voice in the war room, and that most people generally believe that they control the first few rounds, whereas the scouts generally recall the latter rounds, this is not conjecture.

Given that last year, we somehow went from poor drafting to having one of the best drafts in franchise history, it's safe to say that something obviously happened. Unless you're convinced that there was a coincidence where everything just clicked.

Regardless of the power situation, the 2008 draft was one of the best that we had. So when there are multiple reports suggesting that peterson was holding back the rebuild and reports that Peterson's job was pretty much on the line from the beginning of the season, that seems to indicate to me that Kuharich and Cook finally got license to make personnel decisions without Peterson breathing down their neck.

I don't think it's "conjecture" to say that Peterson had a very negative influence on personnel decisions made over the last 10 years. I don't know much about Cook, but I do believe that regardless of the situation, Kuharich did a fabulous job with personnel in 2008.

This, most-likely.

Brock
12-19-2008, 12:45 PM
I don't think it's "conjecture" to say that Peterson had a very negative influence on personnel decisions made over the last 10 years.

The only time I can recall Peterson overruling the coach on a draft pick was to take Larry Johnson over Tyler Brayton.

Donger
12-19-2008, 12:51 PM
1. your post is all conjuncture .... you/we have no idea whether the "word" was truth or crap.

Did you mean "conjecture"?

bowener
12-19-2008, 01:11 PM
we pondered the fact that Patriots V.P. of player personnel Scott Pioli doesn’t have a team of his own to run, and we pointed out that the turnaround of the Dolphins under his father-in-law Bill Parcells

I did not know this.

Micjones
12-19-2008, 01:51 PM
Same two you.

ROFL

aturnis
12-19-2008, 03:51 PM
yeah. pioli's in a huge hurry to leave the good thing he has in new england

An extra half mil. plus per year for at least the next few years couldn't sway that?

chiefzilla1501
12-19-2008, 04:36 PM
The only time I can recall Peterson overruling the coach on a draft pick was to take Larry Johnson over Tyler Brayton.

No, I think when Lynn Stiles was in power, he let Stiles mostly run the show. Recall that Stiles and Peterson go way, way back. This is the guy that was rumored to have no idea who Big Ben was and was rumored to have relied mostly on videotapes and phone calls to his athletic director friends before the draft. The other example I'd point out is the Chiefs choosing Medlock, largely because of his alma matter, UCLA.

I don't know the mindset during the 2006 and 2007 draft. The 2006 draft wasn't that good. I don't think the 2007 Draft is turning out to be that bad. The 2008 Draft looks like it's going to be outstanding. I'm not sure what the reasoning is behind that gradual improvement, but it seems pretty clear that they got a lot better every year.

ChiefsCountry
12-19-2008, 05:05 PM
Medlock flat out destroyed Crosby and Folk during pre-draft workouts. It wasnt a UCLA thing.