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View Full Version : Chiefs Mort says Herm's job secure


Shag
12-01-2008, 06:45 PM
Mort was just on SportsCenter, and said that Herm was pretty secure before yesterday, but the win over Oakland should secure his job through 2009. Said that Clark was a proponent of the Steelers approach of continuity...

:banghead:

ArrowheadHawk
12-01-2008, 06:46 PM
Mort was just on SportsCenter, and said that Herm was pretty secure before yesterday, but the win over Oakland should secure his job through 2009. Said that Clark was a proponent of the Steelers approach of continuity...

:banghead:Well then. We will just have to hope that it works out.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 06:46 PM
Newsflash: The sun is kinda hot

redngold85
12-01-2008, 06:47 PM
ahhhh...beat me to it...

2 wins = job security I guess

:bravo:

the Talking Can
12-01-2008, 06:48 PM
success isn't a criteria for coaches in kc...he'll be here a good long time, gunther too

The Bad Guy
12-01-2008, 06:50 PM
I just don't understand why Clark wouldn't want to blaze his own trail as an owner.

What a spineless, gutless organization.

I really should try to get a job with the Chiefs. I've never seen a team just handout paychecks because they are AFRAID of change.

Bill Parcells
12-01-2008, 06:51 PM
He'll probably be asking for a raise pretty soon.


ROFL

Bearcat
12-01-2008, 06:51 PM
Mort said the same thing a few weeks ago.

smittysbar
12-01-2008, 06:52 PM
God I still hope it isn't true.

I just don't see how a owner can stat pat this this BS.

Fruit Ninja
12-01-2008, 06:52 PM
I expect Herm to be around for at least 2 more years.

Chiefnj2
12-01-2008, 06:52 PM
The commissioner wouldn't like it if 40% of the league's African American coaches were fired in the same year.

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 06:52 PM
Well, at least one more year of me not caring about the Chiefs.

OnTheWarpath58
12-01-2008, 06:53 PM
Mort said the same thing a few weeks ago.

Yep.

This is old news, recycled.

KCChiefsMan
12-01-2008, 06:54 PM
Well then. We will just have to hope that it works out.

I prefer to wait and see if it works out. We don't need hope, that only lets us down.

The Bad Guy
12-01-2008, 06:54 PM
I expect Herm to be around for at least 2 more years.

That would mean he would be given a one-year extension.

He's obviously playing out his contract.

What really chaps me is that Gunther is coming back too.

chief52
12-01-2008, 06:57 PM
Newsflash: The sun is kinda hot

Exactly. It amazes me that some people actually think Herm will be fired. I am not saying anything about his coaching abilities, I am just stating that there is no way they will fire Herm after this season. That has been obvious since week 1. I am not standing up for Herm or saying what I want, I am stating what will happen.

Right, wrong or in between, Herm will surely be back next season.

Why do people think otherwise?

BigRock
12-01-2008, 06:58 PM
I just don't understand why Clark wouldn't want to blaze his own trail as an owner.

After his first season without his dad around, Clark completely neutered Carl Peterson and allowed the team to abandon the way they'd been doing business for 20 years. He did this in the hopes that the team will eventually be better for it, as opposed to watching Carl's parade of 9-7 crap for the past decade.

Clark's faith in Herm being the right guy to see it through is surely misguided. But it truly boggles the mind how people can sit around and act like Clark is disinterested or that he hasn't done anything.

BigChiefFan
12-01-2008, 06:59 PM
LMAO. I can only laugh at ownership at this point.

Fruit Ninja
12-01-2008, 07:03 PM
That would mean he would be given a one-year extension.

He's obviously playing out his contract.

What really chaps me is that Gunther is coming back too.

This is where they are coming from. They know they went young. This year and next year is a money saving year due to them tuning up Arrowhead. Out of the 100million or whatever they are putting into it, they are getting 60million of it back on this rebuild. We will be under the cap big time. So after that if this team isnt any better, then i would expect changes.

This shit has been planned out with Clark, Carl and Herm.

Boris The Great
12-01-2008, 07:08 PM
This is where they are coming from. They know they went young. This year and next year is a money saving year due to them tuning up Arrowhead. Out of the 100million or whatever they are putting into it, they are getting 60million of it back on this rebuild. We will be under the cap big time. So after that if this team isnt any better, then i would expect changes.

This shit has been planned out with Clark, Carl and Herm.

How are they getting 60 million back?

StcChief
12-01-2008, 07:09 PM
The commissioner wouldn't like it if 40% of the league's African American coaches were fired in the same year.
but AA isn't in NFL :rolleyes: so only X % of black coaches can be fired in a given year to keep quota up?

JASONSAUTO
12-01-2008, 07:10 PM
How are they getting 60 million back?

we are 30 mil under the cap this year, but IMO the lost concessions and parking and sales are that much

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 07:12 PM
Exactly. It amazes me that some people actually think Herm will be fired.

I think it's our record over the past two years, coupled with the complete demise of both the offense & defense, and you see why most people want him gone....NOW.

I think a majority of us believe that Hunt doesn't have the balls to do what other owners would do....so it's not much of a shock that he's going to be back.

But, I can at least proudly say that the Chiefs won't get anymore of my money until Herm is gone.

Baconeater
12-01-2008, 07:14 PM
I think it's our record over the past two years, coupled with the complete demise of both the offense & defense, and you see why most people want him gone....NOW.

I think a majority of us believe that Hunt doesn't have the balls to do what other owners would do....so it's not much of a shock that he's going to be back.

But, I can at least proudly say that the Chiefs won't get anymore of my money until Herm is gone.

You put money in Clark's pocket just by watching the NFL on TV.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 07:15 PM
I think it's our record over the past two years, coupled with the complete demise of both the offense & defense, and you see why most people want him gone....NOW.

I think a majority of us believe that Hunt doesn't have the balls to do what other owners would do....so it's not much of a shock that he's going to be back.

But, I can at least proudly say that the Chiefs won't get anymore of my money until Herm is gone.

Demise of the offense?

Demise of the defense?

In case you haven't been watching, the Chiefs offense this year has improved from 12 points a game to 24 points a game. The Chiefs actually have a young QB at the helm. Young players like Franklin, Charles, Cottam and Albert are making major contributions. Mark Bradley was a STEAL. Dwayne Bowe still has the dropsies but Tony Gonzalez is Tony Gonzalez. The offense is most certainly ascending.

The demise of the defense began in 2001. It hasn't gone anywhere.

chief52
12-01-2008, 07:16 PM
I think it's our record over the past two years, coupled with the complete demise of both the offense & defense, and you see why most people want him gone....NOW.

I think a majority of us believe that Hunt doesn't have the balls to do what other owners would do....so it's not much of a shock that he's going to be back.

But, I can at least proudly say that the Chiefs won't get anymore of my money until Herm is gone.

I totally understand how you can make a case for it. Trust me. But you are correct. Whether it is balls or...Clark is not going to fire Herm this season.

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 07:17 PM
You put money in Clark's pocket just by watching the NFL on TV.

I understand that.

But, before last year, I went to 2 games a year (4 of us), bought at least 1 jersey per year on top of all the other Chiefs crap I bought.

I haven't done that since. And yes, I understand in the grand scheme of things, what I spend on Chiefs games isn't much, but it's still quite a bit to me.

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 07:19 PM
Demise of the offense?

Demise of the defense?

In case you haven't been watching, the Chiefs offense this year has improved from 12 points a game to 24 points a game. The Chiefs actually have a young QB at the helm. Young players like Franklin, Charles, Cottam and Albert are making major contributions. Mark Bradley was a STEAL. Dwayne Bowe still has the dropsies but Tony Gonzalez is Tony Gonzalez. The offense is most certainly ascending.

The demise of the defense began in 2001. It hasn't gone anywhere.

Ok. I'll give you the offense. It is ascending at this point. But, up until 4 weeks ago, it was one of the worst in the NFL and one of the worst in Chiefs history.

The defense did start the decline in 2001. But, Herm was a "defensive" guy. It was supposed to improve a lot when he got here. Now, we have the same defense, and not near the offense to make up for it.

MahiMike
12-01-2008, 07:23 PM
Herm has a job? Where?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 07:24 PM
Ok. I'll give you the offense. It is ascending at this point. But, up until 4 weeks ago, it was one of the worst in the NFL and one of the worst in Chiefs history.

The defense did start the decline in 2001. But, Herm was a "defensive" guy. It was supposed to improve a lot when he got here. Now, we have the same defense, and not near the offense to make up for it.

That's in direct contradiction to your post.

The offense is most certainly ascending, while playing mainly first and second year players. Those who aren't first and second players will be replaced with young players this offseason. And the offense will continue to ascend.

That in itself, is progress.

As to the defense, they traded their best pass rusher, McBride's on IR, Hali's been injured, they've gone through two MLB's (the guy who's starting is off the streets) and the only true bright spot are the cornerbacks (Leggett, Carr and Flowers) and the interior defensive line (Dorsey and Tyler).

It's tough to have a good defense when half of your starters were on the streets to begin the year. That being said, Krumrie and Gunther should be fired with 30 seconds left in the season finale.

Get them out of One Arrowhead Drive ASAP.

aturnis
12-01-2008, 07:28 PM
I really should try to get a job with the Chiefs. I've never seen a team just handout paychecks because they are AFRAID of change.

What?!?! Ridiculous! This club is going through it's largest changes in some time. Just b/c they want to stick with the guy they picked some time ago, to facilitate those changes, means nothing.

tmax63
12-01-2008, 07:33 PM
The Chiefs decided to bite the bullet early on and rebuild with youth. It's kinda hard to rebuild from the draft when you only get 7-10 picks a yr depending on trades. It takes more than 1 or 2 years. You won't do it as a coach unless you know the team is going to back you and give some time to get the talent in the fold.The Chiefs this year, IMHO, have showed a few glimmers of hope as this season has developed to this point. Another good draft class and this years experience for all the youngsters makes me think that next year should be significant improvement in # of wins or HE's seat will start warming up.

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 07:33 PM
Nice. This will go over well with the true fans.

Sure-Oz
12-01-2008, 07:34 PM
Nick just said on 38 the spot that he thinks Herm could go to TB and be their DC next year....that is the rumor Clayton couldn't talk about in the Tennessee hires Kiffen thread

OnTheWarpath58
12-01-2008, 07:35 PM
Nick just said on 38 the spot that he thinks Herm could go to TB and be their DC next year....that is the rumor Clayton couldn't talk about in the Tennessee hires Kiffen thread

ROFL

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 07:36 PM
ROFL

Nick didn't make it up. It's not his opinion.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 07:37 PM
Nick didn't make it up. It's not his opinion.

Nick's a moron.

Sure-Oz
12-01-2008, 07:38 PM
Also Jack asked if Tamba Hali could play MLB....seriously

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 07:38 PM
Nick's a moron.

A moron for reporting what he hears, eh?

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 07:39 PM
Also Jack asked if Tamba Hali could play MLB....seriously

Wow, now that's bad.

Please tell me Nick didn't say yes.

Direckshun
12-01-2008, 07:39 PM
As it should be. Herm deserves another year to add talent to this team before we boot him.

Boris The Great
12-01-2008, 07:40 PM
we are 30 mil under the cap this year, but IMO the lost concessions and parking and sales are that much

If that is what he meant, that theory is waaaaaay off. Being $30 million under the cap does not give the team an extra $30 million in revenue. It isnt like they get to keep the cap money that wasnt used.

At the most, one could say Hunt took that $30 million and instead of spending it on players, he spent it on the renovations. But that would only be true if you thought the Chiefs were going to max out the salary cap, which they never do anyway.

So how is it some secretive plot? There is always extra cap money, so there is always money the owners could put towards something else. Now suddenly its a conspiracy?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 07:41 PM
A moron for reporting what he hears, eh?

He didn't HEAR it from anyone.

First, it would be considered tampering and the NFL would most certainly get involved.

Secondly, Rod Marinelli would be Gruden's first choice outside of the current Tampa Bay coaches.

More horseshit from Nick Athan.

OnTheWarpath58
12-01-2008, 07:41 PM
Nick didn't make it up. It's not his opinion.

That's retarded on so many levels...

First, it would require Clark to actually fire Herm.

Second, why in God's name would Gruden want Herm to coach his defense, when there are better options on his staff? Or for that matter, around the rest of the league?

*cough* Rod Marinelli *cough*

healthpellets
12-01-2008, 07:42 PM
I think a majority of us believe that Hunt doesn't have the balls to do what other owners would do....so it's not much of a shock that he's going to be back.



it has nothing to do with Clark's balls. it has everything to do with his lack of interest in the team. if he ends up getting to purchase his soccer team, he'll never be heard from again in KC.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 07:42 PM
He didn't HEAR it from anyone.


No offense, Dane, but you need to shut up.

You don't have a CLUE what you're talking about right now.

ChiefsCountry
12-01-2008, 07:44 PM
Also Jack asked if Tamba Hali could play MLB....seriously

Findthedouche posted a thread with this thought over on Phobia's site.

Sure-Oz
12-01-2008, 07:47 PM
Wow, now that's bad.

Please tell me Nick didn't say yes.

He said "No" and left it at that and shook his head.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 07:52 PM
No offense, Dane, but you need to shut up.

You don't have a CLUE what you're talking about right now.

Sorry Clay, I don't buy this for one fucking second.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 07:54 PM
Sorry Clay, I don't buy this for one fucking second.

That's OK, but you don't have to unload in the messenger's face with a 12-gauge.

Nick is just doing his job.

The Bad Guy
12-01-2008, 07:54 PM
So Herm is going to be the first pro HC to resign so he could take the Tampa D-coordinators job?

You mother fuckers at that shit ass elementary school publication need to stop before everyone dies in hysterics from the bullshit you make up.

MahiMike
12-01-2008, 07:55 PM
What?!?! Ridiculous! This club is going through it's largest changes in some time. Just b/c they want to stick with the guy they picked some time ago, to facilitate those changes, means nothing.

uh, yea it does. It says everything about this organization.

The Bad Guy
12-01-2008, 07:55 PM
That's OK, but you don't have to unload in the messenger's face with a 12-gauge.

Nick is just doing his job.

If making shit up is his job, then yes, he's done it well for years.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 07:56 PM
Who said anything about resigning?

Sure-Oz
12-01-2008, 07:56 PM
Also said Herm would like to be back and it's a 60% chance and the San Diego State thing isn't going away yet.

Just sayin what i saw on that show

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 07:56 PM
So Herm is going to be the first pro HC to resign so he could take the Tampa D-coordinators job?



Exactly. WTF?? Coaches dont quit for lessor jobs.

They quit for an equal position, get an elevated postion or get fired.


People pay for Athan's crap?? What a joke.

Although, in this case, i wish it was true.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 07:59 PM
That's OK, but you don't have to unload in the messenger's face with a 12-gauge.

Nick is just doing his job.

So Nick's on record as saying that Bruce Allen, Jon Gruden and Herm Edwards have all discussed hiring Herm Edwards as the Tampa Bay Defensive Coordinator in 2009? Knowing full well that the league has tampering rules, especially when the person being tampered with is under contract to another team AND that person has a contract through 2009?

That's fucking insane.

And I don't buy it for one fucking second.

Neither should you.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 08:00 PM
So Nick's on record as saying that Bruce Allen, Jon Gruden and Herm Edwards have all discussed hiring Herm Edwards as the Tampa Bay Defensive Coordinator in 2009?

He's certainly not on record saying any of that.

beavis
12-01-2008, 08:01 PM
So Herm is going to be the first pro HC to resign so he could take the Tampa D-coordinators job?

You mother ****ers at that shit ass elementary school publication need to stop before everyone dies in hysterics from the bullshit you make up.

Truth.

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 08:09 PM
That's in direct contradiction to your post.

The offense is most certainly ascending, while playing mainly first and second year players. Those who aren't first and second players will be replaced with young players this offseason. And the offense will continue to ascend.

That in itself, is progress.

As to the defense, they traded their best pass rusher, McBride's on IR, Hali's been injured, they've gone through two MLB's (the guy who's starting is off the streets) and the only true bright spot are the cornerbacks (Leggett, Carr and Flowers) and the interior defensive line (Dorsey and Tyler).

It's tough to have a good defense when half of your starters were on the streets to begin the year. That being said, Krumrie and Gunther should be fired with 30 seconds left in the season finale.

Get them out of One Arrowhead Drive ASAP.

Sure, the offense is getting better....in the last 6 weeks. Much like Huards one good year, I'm sure everyone predicted that Thigpen would come in put up 24, 27, 19, 20, 31, 20 points while giving the offense some Viagra.

I understand the offense has been better, but NOBODY could have predicted Thigpen would give this offense life after his showing in Atlanta.

It's obvious that Herm, or someone, has changed some things offensively. If not, we would still be seeing Oakland, Atlanta, Carolina, Tennessee.

Tell me honestly, when Herm was hired, one of the first things you thought would improve would be the defense, right?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 08:12 PM
Sure, the offense is getting better....in the last 6 weeks. Much like Huards one good year, I'm sure everyone predicted that Thigpen would come in put up 24, 27, 19, 20, 31, 20 points while giving the offense some Viagra.

I understand the offense has been better, but NOBODY could have predicted Thigpen would give this offense life after his showing in Atlanta.

It's obvious that Herm, or someone, has changed some things offensively. If not, we would still be seeing Oakland, Atlanta, Carolina, Tennessee.

Tell me honestly, when Herm was hired, one of the first things you thought would improve would be the defense, right?

Hey Man, I'm just disputing your comments with facts. You said that Herm was the demise of the offense and the defense.

Both statements made by you were incorrect. And I stated facts.

It doesn't matter how the Chiefs arrived at their current state (Thigpen, Albert, Charles, Bradley, Gailey, etc.) but the fact remains that the offense has improved significantly during the course of the season. That is in direct contradiction to your statement.

And yes, I thought the offense would improve. But not overnight. They were bereft of talent and youth.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 08:14 PM
He's certainly not on record saying any of that.

Then he is not stating facts

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 08:16 PM
Nick just said on 38 the spot that he thinks Herm could go to TB and be their DC next year....that is the rumor Clayton couldn't talk about in the Tennessee hires Kiffen thread

LMAO

That is fricking hilarious. There is no way that will happen though I wish it would. We couldn't be that lucky

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:17 PM
How sad is this news.... Talk about a swift kick in the nuts to the fans and city....

I miss my Chiefs, Herm has taken them away! I want them back!

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 08:18 PM
Then he is not stating facts

All Nick did was report what one of his sources told him.

Chiefnj2
12-01-2008, 08:18 PM
Herm takes a top 3 offense and helps drive it down to #32 and now people are happy KC has the 27th ranked offense. Change you can believe in!

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 08:18 PM
That's retarded on so many levels...

First, it would require Clark to actually fire Herm.

Second, why in God's name would Gruden want Herm to coach his defense, when there are better options on his staff? Or for that matter, around the rest of the league?

*cough* Rod Marinelli *cough*

Well to be fair Herm and Rod are about equal. Rod hasn't done jack shit with the D in Detroit. He actually maybe a worse head coach than Herm.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:20 PM
Well to be fair Herm and Rod are about equal. Rod hasn't done jack shit with their D in Detroit he actually maybe a worse head coach than Herm.

That is saying something, Herm is historically one of the worse in the NFL, He makes Richie Kotite look like Jimmy Johnson...

chiefs1111
12-01-2008, 08:21 PM
nobody here should be surprised that Herm is coming back next year,nobody

chief52
12-01-2008, 08:22 PM
All Nick did was report what one of his sources told him.

If one of your "sources" tells you something like this, he/she should immediately become an "ex-source". Nick is the one stating it now...it is coming out of his mouth and it is beyond belief.

Herm is going to quit his position as Head Coach of the Chiefs to become Defensive Coordinator of the Bucs. ROFL

chiefs1111
12-01-2008, 08:22 PM
That is saying something, Herm is historically one of the worse in the NFL, He makes Richie Kotite look like Jimmy Johnson...

ROFLROFLROFL

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 08:23 PM
That is saying something, Herm is historically one of the worse in the NFL, He makes Richie Kotite look like Jimmy Johnson...

LMAO I couldn't agree more. Though Rod's career record is 10-22 which is very Rich Kotite as well

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:23 PM
If one of your "sources" tells you something like this, he/she should immediately become an "ex-source". Nick is the one stating it now...it is coming out of his mouth and it is beyond belief.

Herm is going to quit his position as Head Coach of the Chiefs to become Defensive Coordinator of the Bucs. ROFL

Have you ever heard Herm not refer to the Bucs for anything? I would love them to take him off our hands, Hell I would give them this years first to take him.....

We would be a thousand times better for it in the long run...

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 08:23 PM
And yes, I thought the offense would improve. But not overnight. They were bereft of talent and youth.

NO, they were berefit of a competent QB.

Herms fatal mistake was going into "rebuild" mode without a dependable QB.

OnTheWarpath58
12-01-2008, 08:23 PM
Well to be fair Herm and Rod are about equal. Rod hasn't done jack shit with the D in Detroit. He actually maybe a worse head coach than Herm.

As head coaches, yeah, they're equally shitty.

But you can't HONESTLY think that Marinelli wouldn't be a better choice as the Tampa DC over Herm fucking Edwards...

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 08:25 PM
As head coaches, yeah, they're equally shitty.

But you can't HONESTLY think that Marinelli wouldn't be a better choice as the Tampa DC over Herm ****ing Edwards...


Herm has never coodinated anything in his life. Hes kind of like a community organizer. ROFL

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 08:25 PM
If one of your "sources" tells you something like this, he/she should immediately become an "ex-source". Nick is the one stating it now...it is coming out of his mouth and it is beyond belief.

Herm is going to quit his position as Head Coach of the Chiefs to become Defensive Coordinator of the Bucs. ROFL

No one said ANYTHING about quitting.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:26 PM
LMAO I couldn't agree more. Though Rod's career record is 10-22 which is very Rich Kotite as well

I will NEVER forgive Herm for quiting on his team in the Indy game last year. That was the last straw for me. I couldnt really stand his lying ass before, after the lay down and suck your thumb shit he pulled then, was it...

He is a coward and a loser.... He does nothing for this franchise.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 08:26 PM
NO, they were berefit of a competent QB.

Herms fatal mistake was going into "rebuild" mode without a dependable QB.

So NOW you're going to admit that Croyle is injury prone?

I've been saying this for THREE FUCKING YEARS but all I heard from the majority of people on this board was that I was wrong and full of shit.

Additionally, please show me the page and chapter of the "NFL Rebuilding Handbook" that unequivocally states that a franchise QB is necessary to rebuild a football team. Especially the oldest team in the NFL.

I'll be waiting.

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 08:27 PM
That is in direct contradiction to your statement.

It's not really in direct contradiction to the statement. Before the last 6 games - looking back to the day Herm was hired - I'd say the offense has fallen pretty far, but could be on the way back to decent.

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 08:27 PM
So NOW you're going to admit that Croyle is injury prone?

I've been saying this for THREE ****ING YEARS but I heard from the majority of people on this board was that I was wrong and full of shit.

Additionally, please show me the page and chapter of the "NFL Rebuilding Handbook" that unequivocally states that a franchise QB is necessary to rebuild a football.

I'll be waiting.

Dude, i was saying this same things about Croyle. Dont count me as one of his defenders.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:27 PM
NO, they were berefit of a competent QB.

Herms fatal mistake was going into "rebuild" mode without a dependable QB.

This.... He has LUCKED his way into Thigpen and Gaileys ability to make serious adjustments... But it keeps the true fans lining up like lemmings...

OnTheWarpath58
12-01-2008, 08:28 PM
No one said ANYTHING about quitting.

And no one said anything about him being fired, either.

Yet one of those options HAS to happen for this "rumor" to be true.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 08:28 PM
As head coaches, yeah, they're equally shitty.

But you can't HONESTLY think that Marinelli wouldn't be a better choice as the Tampa DC over Herm ****ing Edwards...

I think they would both be about equal. Comparing them I really don't see either one of them standing out and I would take a bet right now that D would fall dramatically if either of those turds were the DC.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:28 PM
Dude, i was saying this same things about Croyle. Dont count me as one of his defenders.

I was a Croyle defender, I can admit it....

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 08:29 PM
No one said ANYTHING about quitting.

Well he isn't going to be fired so what other option is there?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 08:30 PM
It's not really in direct contradiction to the statement. Before the last 6 games - looking back to the day Herm was hired - I'd say the offense has fallen pretty far, but could be on the way back to decent.

Dude, give it a break.

You said that Herm was the demise of the offense and the defense.

The defense has not improved overall. The offense has improved considerably, with youth and not free agent veterans. As a matter of fact, the free agent veterans are keeping this offense from reaching its true potential (i.e. Right Guard and Right Tackle).

Case closed.

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 08:31 PM
I was a Croyle defender, I can admit it....

Everyone wanted him to succeed because he was young and had a live arm.

IN reality he never proved anything other than being fragile.

Thigpen is basically what everyone wanted Croyle to be a year or two ago.

KCChiefsMan
12-01-2008, 08:31 PM
I'll look at this in a positive light. When there is no hope, you can't be disappointed.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:34 PM
Everyone wanted him to succeed because he was young and had a live arm.

IN reality he never proved anything other than being fragile.

Thigpen is basically what everyone wanted Croyle to be a year or two ago.

Fair Enough.... He would make a great Arena League QB....

Thigpen is what he is because of Gailey adjusting to his strengths....

Not because of Herm... Credit Gailey....

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 08:35 PM
Thigpen is what he is because of Gailey adjusting to his strengths....

Not because of Herm... Credit Gailey....

Agree 100%

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:35 PM
I'll look at this in a positive light. When there is no hope, you can't be disappointed.


Good point, if this is the case 2009 will be a total loss as well... They cant take hope away from us when they refuse to give us anything to hope for...

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 08:38 PM
Not because of Herm... Credit Gailey....

Who hired Gailey?

88TG88
12-01-2008, 08:40 PM
Well, at least one more year of me not caring about the Chiefs.

I haven't seen more than 5 minutes of any chief game this year. I wouldn't expect to watch any more than that with Herm calling the shots.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:43 PM
Agree 100%

I guess you can credit Herm. He had no choice but to allow Gailey to play offense with these players.

I think he realized his ass was on the line, he didnt have any scape goat to throw under the bus (Solari), therefore he had no choice.

Gun has a very good chance at being his next victim for bus chucking. Gun is failing at running Herm Tampon 2. So Herm has an out this year and Gun will be the Martyr. I am not a Gun fan, but can see this happening...

I can see the same thing happening next year with the defense. We will bring in a DC, the first 6 games or so will be typical Herms zero clueless defense, then all of a sudden BOOM (Madden) the defense comes out and you see a totally new scheme, maybe a 4-3, with blitzing...

Herm is running out of excuses, His injury lists are always long and distinguished. Herm is on his last leg as a NFL head coach. I cant see other franchises lining up for his services...

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 08:46 PM
I can see the same thing happening next year with the defense. We will bring in a DC, the first 6 games or so will be typical Herms zero clueless defense, then all of a sudden BOOM (Madden) the defense comes out and you see a totally new scheme, maybe a 4-3, with blitzing...


Unless the Chiefs acquire a pass rushing defensive end and three AVERAGE linebackers, they're not running a 3-4.

JFC.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 08:46 PM
I guess you can credit Herm. He had no choice but to allow Gailey to play offense with these players.

I think he realized his ass was on the line, he didnt have any scape goat to throw under the bus (Solari), therefore he had no choice.

Gun has a very good chance at being his next victim for bus chucking. Gun is failing at running Herm Tampon 2. So Herm has an out this year and Gun will be the Martyr. I am not a Gun fan, but can see this happening...

I can see the same thing happening next year with the defense. We will bring in a DC, the first 6 games or so will be typical Herms zero clueless defense, then all of a sudden BOOM (Madden) the defense comes out and you see a totally new scheme, maybe a 4-3, with blitzing...

Herm is running out of excuses, His injury lists are always long and distinguished. Herm is on his last leg as a NFL head coach. I cant see other franchises lining up for his services...

I think it is laughable to give any kind of credit for the offense improving to Herm. It is all Gailey and any reasonable person would know that.

They were running the exact same offense in the beginning of the season until both Croyle and Huard were put on IR. They saw what Thigpen did in their shitty offense against Atlanta and Gailey knew he had to change it up to help Thigpen succeed.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:49 PM
Unless the Chiefs acquire a pass rushing defensive end and three AVERAGE linebackers, they're not running a 3-4.

JFC.

Maybe if you just slow down and actually read the posts.... Where did I say anything about a 3-4?

JFC yourself...

Cormac
12-01-2008, 08:50 PM
Exactly. It amazes me that some people actually think Herm will be fired. I am not saying anything about his coaching abilities, I am just stating that there is no way they will fire Herm after this season. That has been obvious since week 1. I am not standing up for Herm or saying what I want, I am stating what will happen.

Right, wrong or in between, Herm will surely be back next season.

Why do people think otherwise?

9-7
4-12
2-11

.....just sayin'.....

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 08:51 PM
I think it is laughable to give any kind of credit for the offense improving to Herm. It is all Gailey and any reasonable person would know that.

They were running the exact same offense in the beginning of the season until both Croyle and Huard were put on IR. They saw what Thigpen did in their shitty offense against Atlanta and Gailey knew he had to change it up to help Thigpen succeed.

100% agree....

Demonpenz
12-01-2008, 08:59 PM
Most people knew croyle was injury prone but we were f'ed no matter what. Atleast they had the balls to try croyle, and not actually go for chad pennington and the swing pass express.

Mr. Plow
12-01-2008, 09:06 PM
Dude, give it a break.

You said that Herm was the demise of the offense and the defense.

The defense has not improved overall. The offense has improved considerably, with youth and not free agent veterans. As a matter of fact, the free agent veterans are keeping this offense from reaching its true potential (i.e. Right Guard and Right Tackle).

Case closed.

All I'm saying is the offense has improved....in the last 6 games. Before that, it continued to get worse.

You are looking at the last 6 games. I'm looking at the last 2 1/2 years.

FringeNC
12-01-2008, 09:17 PM
Who hired Gailey?

Who ridiculed our old offense ad nauseam, claiming that our circus offense caused our poor defense? Who attempted to move us to a power running offense with spectacularly unsuccessful results?

Only after we completely scrapped Herm's preferred offensive philosophy has the offense improved. The only credit Herm deserves is having the guts to effectively admit he was wrong by allowing Gailey to experiment.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 09:23 PM
Well he isn't going to be fired so what other option is there?

How do you know he's not going to be fired?

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 09:31 PM
How do you know he's not going to be fired?

Because you said so!

ChiefButthurt
12-01-2008, 09:37 PM
ROFL

Did anybody on this bulletin board think for a minute that the Hunt family needs the extra cash generated by the Chiefs winning anything? Sports teams are a hobby for the Hunt family, not a revenue generating venture.

ChiefsCountry
12-01-2008, 09:50 PM
If the Chiefs win out Herm would be back for sure. No way could they can him then. 5 game winning streak to end the year with a young team.

crazycoffey
12-01-2008, 09:57 PM
herm wouldn't be fired this year if the chiefs didn't have ANY injuries or ANY wins

booger
12-01-2008, 10:02 PM
Marinelli's DC and son in law, Joe Barry, a former Buc LB coach could follow him again wherever he ends up.

Maybe here in KC where hopefully at least they will be looking for a DC, DL, and LB coaches.

damaticous
12-01-2008, 10:02 PM
I expect Herm to be around for at least 2 more years.

As much as I hate it I agree with you. :sulk:

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 10:03 PM
Marinelli's DC and son in law, Joe Barry, a former Buc LB coach could follow him again wherever he ends up.

Maybe here in KC where hopefully at least they will be looking for a DC, DL, and LB coaches.

Herm is keeping the whole staff intact if he stays.

Won't that be fun?

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:03 PM
Herm is keeping the whole staff intact if he stays.

Won't that be fun?

Gun could be the next sacrafice for Herm...

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 10:04 PM
Gun could be the next sacrafice for Herm...

Nope. Herm already said Gunther was coming back and Gunther is waaaaaaay too proud to resign.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:05 PM
Nope. Herm already said Gunther was coming back and Gunther is waaaaaaay too proud to resign.

Someone has to pay for this year, It would be very unHerm like if he didnt blame someone for something...

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 10:06 PM
Someone has to pay for this year, It would be very unHerm like if he didnt blame someone for something...

Unless you count Carl, it's Herm or no one.

Hey, at least I'm not gobbling his genitals anymore, right?

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:07 PM
Unless you count Carl, it's Herm or no one.

Hey, at least I'm not gobbling his genitals anymore, right?

There is enough going on here now that they won another game....

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 10:14 PM
How do you know he's not going to be fired?

Are you serious? You know damn well that Herm is staying.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 10:16 PM
Herm is keeping the whole staff intact if he stays.

Won't that be fun?

No it sucks and it is a bunch of fucking BS. If Herm stays they should force Gun and Krumrie out or tell Herm to hit the road

booger
12-01-2008, 10:30 PM
Herm is keeping the whole staff intact if he stays.

Won't that be fun?

He says that yes, like all coaches do in the same situation. His track record speaks for itself in changing coordinators.

This year could be different though. I think if he really thinks about it he has to contemplate changes on defense and special teams no matter how much he likes those guys.

The whole gunther saga this year is embarrassing. Losing Allen and Hali's injury and problems switching to RE doesn't help, along with the recent mile long list of injuries on defense. He got off to a horrid start in the offseason when he convinced Carl and Herm to let go of LB coach Don Blackmon and let him also coach LB's. They have all but admitted that mistake when they pulled John Bunting out of his college radio gig on the east coast and brought him here as a defensive consultant. I posted that thread about his hiring and some local carolina area paper was the only one to do a story. No mention of it anywhere around KC in the media. From that article too it seemed more like a favor and Bunting was content with not getting back into coaching right away. Money as well there......paying Blackmon as he isn't IIRC currently coaching this year and I'm sure they had to make it worth Buntings while as well.

In a way JB is basically evaluating Gunther for Herm and Carl. Assuming he doesn't get canned you would have to assume we would go out and hire a LB coach. Who the hell is going to want to come in and work under Gun in that role? I think Gun is on the defensive as well. Teicher's article about him and the quotes that he has pushed the team to draft all these young players........Kind of a joke really when most of the DB's Herm has wanted himself and know Gun wants to take the credit.

Very familiar to Gun's last season as HC and saying the problems on D were because they missed having him as DC and throwing K. Schottenheimer under the bus. Also players and coaches getting sick of Gunther's me me attitude and always giving himself credit. James Hasty and Tim Grunhard turned on him with that type of attitude. The famous Carlton Gray called him a dead man walking on the flight home of the last game against altanta.

So if he's lost it again and Herm and Carl know the history, i don't think they want that around a bunch of youngsters.

When he came back to KC he could have went to Herm in NYJ. He also could of worked for Jim Mora Jr. as DC in atlanta. They are close as well. Maybe he head up north with the seahawks since his is also buddies with seahawks DC John Marshall.

Who knows? I'd just like for someone in the local media ask Herm about Gun and the choice to let him coach LB's, the hiring of Bunting, and how that all effects the future.

Deberg_1990
12-01-2008, 10:33 PM
I cant wait to see 45,000 strong each week at Arrowhead next year if no changes are made in the offseason.


Way to bend your fanbase over Clark!!

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:34 PM
I cant wait to see 45,000 strong each week at Arrowhead next year if no changes are made in the offseason.


Way to bend your fanbase over Clark!!

Your being generous!

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:38 PM
Someone has to pay for this year, It would be very unHerm like if he didnt blame someone for something...

Pay for WHAT?

Developing a QB? Developing three cornerbacks? Overseeing the youngest team in the NFL? Losing by 3 points to the Jets on the road? Tampa in overtime? San Diego for going to 2 instead of the tie?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

All you see is wins and losses and NOTHING in between.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:39 PM
Pay for WHAT?

Developing a QB? Developing three cornerbacks? Overseeing the youngest team in the NFL? Losing by 3 points to the Jets on the road? Tampa in overtime? San Diego for going to 2 instead of the tie?

What the **** is wrong with you?

All you see is wins and losses and NOTHING in between.

Problem is I cant tell if I typed a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense...:doh!:

booger
12-01-2008, 10:41 PM
Mort was just on SportsCenter, and said that Herm was pretty secure before yesterday, but the win over Oakland should secure his job through 2009. Said that Clark was a proponent of the Steelers approach of continuity...



Pretty much what he said last offseason(Clark)

He wanted the organization to move to a build through the draft approach.
Make wise choices in FA while taking some chances once we've built up some of the roster.
Also liked the idea of having a long term coach like Cowher and Fisher, he didn't mention the coaches but did mention PIT and NE as teams he wanted to emulate.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:41 PM
Problem is I cant tell if I typed a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense...:doh!:


I typed 3-4 defense on purpose because otherwise, that statement made absolutely no sense.

Fruit Ninja
12-01-2008, 10:43 PM
How are they getting 60 million back?

by being 30 million under the cap this year and next year. If not 60, at least 45-55 imo.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:45 PM
Pay for WHAT?

Developing a QB? Developing three cornerbacks? Overseeing the youngest team in the NFL? Losing by 3 points to the Jets on the road? Tampa in overtime? San Diego for going to 2 instead of the tie?

What the **** is wrong with you?

All you see is wins and losses and NOTHING in between.

Oh dear god this is priceless.. I like how you cherry pick the last few games when Gailey has made changes to the offense...

Lets talk about the over all body of work, not just a few games this season... Lets talk about the collapse last year, the injuries, the playoff game where we didnt get a first down until the 3rd qtr running Herms buttsechs football.

Its not about wins and loses, its about the whole body of work, starting when herm was hired, not the last few games...............

Lets talk about the 1st day picks on the DL that are struggling to produce, Lets talk about the offense prior to Gailey making changes, how successful was that...

Dude, I get it, you like to believe in what is going on with Herm and this team. I am very apprehensive about it, I am not buying into anything, ANYTHING Herm is selling. Period!

My opinions dont reflect yours nor yours mine, That is why they are opinions. Neither one of us is the end all or the final word on the chiefs.. Once you understand that people dont always share your views and love for all things Herm, The more relaxed you will be when you post.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:45 PM
All I'm saying is the offense has improved....in the last 6 games. Before that, it continued to get worse.

You are looking at the last 6 games. I'm looking at the last 2 1/2 years.

Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense.

Do we have to rehash history here?

2006: No Roaf, essentially no Trent Green.
2007: 4-3 leading the AFC West until a rash of injuries (including LJ) hit. Chiefs lose out.
2008: Brodie out in game one. Huard sucks. Thigpen sucks. No offense, no plan. Game 7 in NY: Team begins to gel. From 12 points a game to 24 points a game, with the youngest team in the league.

It doesn't matter how it happened or if you want to argue whether or not Herm took of the kid gloves and allowed Gailey to devise an effective offense.

The bottom line is that it happened. And the season isn't even over.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:47 PM
Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense.

Do we have to rehash history here?

2006: No Roaf, essentially no Trent Green.
2007: 4-3 leading the AFC West until a rash of injuries (including LJ) hit. Chiefs lose out.
2008: Brodie out in game one. Huard sucks. Thigpen sucks. No offense, no plan. Game 7 in NY: Team begins to gel. From 12 points a game to 24 points a game, with the youngest team in the league.

It doesn't matter how it happened or if you want to argue whether or not Herm took of the kid gloves and allowed Gailey to devise an effective offense.

The bottom line is that it happened. And the season isn't even over.

So what about the defense? This is a team effort....

How has it transpired since 2006?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:48 PM
Once you understand that people dont always share your views and love for all things Herm, The more relaxed you will be when you post.

Debating with you is like debating with a two year-old.

You don't respond to facts and there are limits to you understanding the facts.

I'm not going to go line by line again with you, especially since you failed to respond in kind last time.

Just know that you are wrong. Dead wrong. This team is moving in the right direction with youth.

Anyone who expected that rebuilding would last half a season with the youngest team in the league is a complete and utter dumbfuck when it comes to football.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:49 PM
Debating with you is like debating with a two year-old.

You don't respond to facts and there are limits to you understanding.

I'm not going to go line by line again with you, especially since you failed to respond in kind last time.

Just know that you are wrong. Dead wrong. This team is moving in the right direction with youth.

Anyone who expected that rebuilding would last half a season with the youngest team in the league is a complete and utter dumb**** when it comes to football.

yawn... Whatever Dane.... You know, just put me on Ignore.... Please?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:49 PM
So what about the defense? This is a team effort....

How has it transpired since 2006?

I don't know, Reerun.

Why don't you tell me?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:50 PM
yawn... Whatever Dane.... You know, just put me on Ignore.... Please?

And there we have it.

You can't back up anything you and you don't respond when challenged with facts.

crazycoffey
12-01-2008, 10:55 PM
Lets talk about the over all body of work, not just a few games this season... Lets talk about the collapse last year, the injuries, the playoff game where we didnt get a first down until the 3rd qtr running Herms buttsechs football.


I knew it! Herm causes the injuries on this team last year and this year, didn't he? He must have went all Tonya Harding on them in the locker room.....

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 10:56 PM
yawn... Whatever Dane.... You know, just put me on Ignore.... Please?

If I put you on ignore, I can't torture you.

:evil:

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:58 PM
I don't know, Reerun.

Why don't you tell me?


Over all rank

2006 16th
2007 13th
2008 32nd

I stand corrected, we have improved every year... As long as the injury excuse is used, Herms teams will always be on the upswing...

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 10:59 PM
If I put you on ignore, I can't torture you.

:evil:

Its not torture... Its a message board...

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Over all rank

2006 16th
2007 13th
2008 32nd

I stand corrected, we have improved every year... As long as the injury excuse is used, Herms teams will always be on the upswing...

Did you honestly expect the defense to improve with the loss of Jared Allen, moving McBride to end and starting two rookie cornerbacks?

And that was just the beginning of the defensive nightmare.

Again, reasonable expectations.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:02 PM
Did you honestly expect the defense to improve with the loss of Jared Allen, moving McBride to end and starting two rookie cornerbacks?

And that was just the beginning of the defensive nightmare.

Again, reasonable expectations.

I think most people felt the defense would take a step backwards.

For it to take a GIANT LEAP backwards is inexcusable.

Herm and Gunther horribly misjudged the talent available.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 11:04 PM
Anyone who expected that rebuilding would last half a season with the youngest team in the league is a complete and utter dumb**** when it comes to football.

Dane I don't think anybody is debating rebuilding they are debating about who is leading the rebuild.

With Herm there is always going to be some kind of excuse for why he sucks. The same with Gun. He has had 5 years of telling us how close we are and yet he is worse than Greg Robinson ever was.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:04 PM
I think most people felt the defense would take a step backwards.

For it to take a GIANT LEAP backwards is inexcusable.

Herm and Gunther horribly misjudged the talent available.

Available?

How so?

Please explain.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:06 PM
Dane I don't think anybody is debating rebuilding they are debating about who is leading the rebuild.

With Herm there is always going to be some kind of excuse for why he sucks. The same with Gun. He has had 5 years of telling us how close we are and yet he is worse than Greg Robinson ever was.

It takes the trust of the owner and a certain personality to take the oldest team in the league to the youngest in one single offseason.

These guys are playing hard each and every week. There has been massive improvement on the offensive side of the ball. The defense in top of the league in takeaways. They just don't have the talent to pressure the QB and take that next step.

Hopefully, that will happen in the 2009 off-season.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:07 PM
Did you honestly expect the defense to improve with the loss of Jared Allen, moving McBride to end and starting two rookie cornerbacks?

And that was just the beginning of the defensive nightmare.

Again, reasonable expectations.

My reasonable expectations was, with Herm, whom is a HIGHLY touted talent scout and defensive mind guru was by year 3 having a defense in the top 5 in the league.

We have a "few" of Herms picks panning out, I see he can draft secondary players, but the rest lacks alot to be desired. Just because we lose one of DV's picks, Herm should of been able to refill that position with his keen eye and ability to draft solid talent. Dont you think? DE is a very important postition on the DL and we have yet attempted to address that issue. Oh wait, we moved players around... :doh!:

There are alot of reasonable expectations Dane, Like a Herm led team should have more than 6 sacks this late in the season. He ran his mouth when he arrived about fixing this defense. I have yet other than our corners seen much "fixing" from Herm...

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:07 PM
It takes the trust of the owner and a certain personality to take the oldest team in the league to the youngest in one single offseason.

These guys are playing hard each and every week. There has been massive improvement on the offensive side of the ball. The defense in top of the league in takeaways. They just don't have the talent to pressure the QB and take that next step.

Hopefully, that will happen in the 2009 off-season.

So you honestly think Herm can build a superbowl team and lead it to the promise land with all his faults?

Chiefnj2
12-01-2008, 11:09 PM
They just don't have the talent to pressure the QB and take that next step.

Hopefully, that will happen in the 2009 off-season.

The DL consists of first day draft picks taken by Herm. If there is no pressure, it is in large part Herms fault.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:09 PM
So you honestly think Herm can build a superbowl team?

Build? Yes.

Coach a Super Bowl team? Probably not.

Not unless he has a huge shift in philosophy (though offensively, he's certainly much different the past 6 games that the first 40 games in KC).

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:12 PM
The DL consists of first day draft picks taken by Herm. If there is no pressure, it is in large part Herms fault.

Hali was a complimentary end to Allen. Now, Allen's gone.

Additionally, Hali was NOT a reach. He may have been chosen 10 spots too high, but certainly not several rounds to high.

Tank and Turk went lower than their projected slots.

Hali's been a disappointment these past two seasons after starting so well but the jury's definitely still out on Tank and Turk.

And let's be honest: It's not like the Chiefs were the Houston Texans that have two top ten defensive lineman on their D-Line. The Chiefs have ONE.

And everyone thought Mario Williams was a bust his first year, too.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:12 PM
The DL consists of first day draft picks taken by Herm. If there is no pressure, it is in large part Herms fault.

We have alot of holes, we cant spend every first day pick throwing them at the DL. At some point those players Mr Keen Eye drafts will start having to produce. Wether it is lack of coaching or lack of talent, something has to give.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 11:14 PM
It takes the trust of the owner and a certain personality to take the oldest team in the league to the youngest in one single offseason.

These guys are playing hard each and every week. There has been massive improvement on the offensive side of the ball. The defense in top of the league in takeaways. They just don't have the talent to pressure the QB and take that next step.

Hopefully, that will happen in the 2009 off-season.

I agree it takes trust that is why Herm is not going to be fired or quit this season. I don't think Gun should be around though and Krumrie especially.

I agree the guys are playing hard but it was Herm and Gun who thought that Boone was going to be their rush DE and let Wilkerson walk after they traded Allen.

Chiefnj2
12-01-2008, 11:14 PM
Hali was a complimentary end to Allen. Now, Allen's gone.

Additionally, Hali was NOT a reach. He may have been chosen 10 spots too high, but certainly not several rounds to high.

Tank and Turk went lower than their projected slots.

Hali's been a disappointment these past two seasons after starting so well but the jury's definitely still out on Tank and Turk.

And let's be honest: It's not like the Chiefs were the Houston Texans that have two top ten defensive lineman on their D-Line. The Chiefs have ONE.

And everyone thought Mario Williams was a bust his first year, too.

Two first round picks (one of which was #5) and a second and third should account for more than the handfull of sacks that they have.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:15 PM
Available?

How so?

Please explain.

Do you think Herm and Gunther went into this season believing they would field one of the NFL's worst defenses?

If the answer is yes, they should be fired for standing pat knowing they would be terrible.

If the answer is no, they horribly misjudged the defensive talent on their roster.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:16 PM
Do you think Herm and Gunther went into this season believing they would field one of the NFL's worst defenses?

If the answer is yes, they should be fired for standing pat knowing they would be terrible.

If the answer is no, they horribly misjudged the defensive talent on their roster.

No it was all the injuries.....

How can they be a good defensive unit if they have all those injuries?

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:18 PM
No it was all the injuries.....

How can they be a good defensive unit if they have all those injuries?

I know you're joking, but some people want to use injuries as an excuse.

Even when this team was healthy at the beginning of the year, the defense SUCKED.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:19 PM
We have a "few" of Herms picks panning out, I see he can draft secondary players, but the rest lacks alot to be desired. Just because we lose one of DV's picks, Herm should of been able to refill that position with his keen eye and ability to draft solid talent. Dont you think? DE is a very important postition on the DL and we have yet attempted to address that issue. Oh wait, we moved players around... :doh!:

In one offseason? No. No way.

The Chiefs took a gamble in trading one of the NFL's most dominant defensive ends. They didn't have anyone behind him and the draft didn't play out in such a way that they could add a dominant defensive end. You can't fill all of your personnel holes in one off season.

As to Vermeil, give it a break. That coaching staff saw Allen as a long snapper and occasional rotational end. The same staff that saw Priest Holmes as a third down back.

There are alot of reasonable expectations Dane, Like a Herm led team should have more than 6 sacks this late in the season. He ran his mouth when he arrived about fixing this defense. I have yet other than our corners seen much "fixing" from Herm...

Ran his mouth? I don't remember it that way but I'd say that 16th and 13th are certainly respectable.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 11:20 PM
I know you're joking, but some people want to use injuries as an excuse.

Even when this team was healthy at the beginning of the year, the defense SUCKED.

The D has sucked for the last 5 years especially since Gun has been back.

I think he has learned it is alot easier to coach a D that has Hasty and Carter on the outside and DT and Neil Smith rushing the QB with Salameau and Joe Phillips coming up the middle.

Chiefnj2
12-01-2008, 11:20 PM
I know you're joking, but some people want to use injuries as an excuse.

Even when this team was healthy at the beginning of the year, the defense SUCKED.

What do you expect when you trade away your best and only really good player who happens to be the heart of the defense ?

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:21 PM
Do you think Herm and Gunther went into this season believing they would field one of the NFL's worst defenses?

If the answer is yes, they should be fired for standing pat knowing they would be terrible.

If the answer is no, they horribly misjudged the defensive talent on their roster.

Please explain to us how the Chiefs could fill all of their personnel needs in one off-season.

Before the 2008 draft, the Chiefs had needs at QB, WR, RT, RG, LT, MLB, OLB, CB, CB, RB, TE and DE.

I think they did a pretty damn good job of addressing as many needs as they could.

I expect 2009 to be much of the same.

crazycoffey
12-01-2008, 11:21 PM
I know you're joking, but some people want to use injuries as an excuse.

Even when this team was healthy at the beginning of the year, the defense SUCKED.


we can't really judge how bad they were, or how good they could have been without the injuries.

Lets face it - it's not the end all be all, but there is a certain specific relationship to performing lower than expected when battling cronic injuies, starters on the line, the LBs and the backfield. This all = more factual problems that can be explained than "excuses" for the lack of production....

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:24 PM
In one offseason? No. No way.

The Chiefs took a gamble in trading one of the NFL's most dominant defensive ends. They didn't have anyone behind him and the draft didn't play out in such a way that they could add a dominant defensive end. You can't fill all of your personnel holes in one off season.

As to Vermeil, give it a break. That coaching staff saw Allen as a long snapper and occasional rotational end. The same staff that saw Priest Holmes as a third down back.



Ran his mouth? I don't remember it that way but I'd say that 16th and 13th are certainly respectable.

Dane, Herm has been here for 3 years. What the hell has he done the last 2 of 3 offseasons? So we are now only judging Herm by this past offseason?

Rebuild or not, he has had 3 drafts, 3 drafts to fix this Defense....

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:24 PM
we can't really judge how bad they were, or how good they could have been without the injuries.

Lets face it - it's not the end all be all, but there is a certain specific relationship to performing lower than expected when battling cronic injuies, starters on the line, the LBs and the backfield. This all = more factual problems that can be explained than "excuses" for the lack of production....

So why are the "cronic" injuries over the last 3 years?

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:25 PM
Please explain to us how the Chiefs could fill all of their personnel needs in one off-season.


They surely couldn't.

But do you really think Herm and Gunther went into the season anticipating the 32nd ranked defense?

No fucking way. They thought they would coach up their Allenless defense to be 18th or 19th.

They fucking failed horribly.

Get them the fuck out of here.

Reerun_KC
12-01-2008, 11:26 PM
Please explain to us how the Chiefs could fill all of their personnel needs in one off-season.

Before the 2008 draft, the Chiefs had needs at QB, WR, RT, RG, LT, MLB, OLB, CB, CB, RB, TE and DE.

I think they did a pretty damn good job of addressing as many needs as they could.

I expect 2009 to be much of the same.

They could of "planned" by using the 2006 and 2007 draft to address needs and fill spots with quality players maybe?

For some reason people think we never had a draft until this year. How many players from the 2006 and 2007 draft are making big impacts on this team?

crazycoffey
12-01-2008, 11:27 PM
It's raining outside, and you're standing in the rain getting wet. Why? Why is your face wet? It's because it's raining you retard, even though you thought it was supposed to be sunny today....

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:28 PM
They surely couldn't.

But do you really think Herm and Gunther went into the season anticipating the 32nd ranked defense?

No fucking way. They thought they would coach up their Allenless defense to be 18th or 19th.

They fucking failed horribly.

Get them the fuck out of here.

So, injuries play no part in their ranking? I'm not implying that a healthy Brian Johnston, Tamba Hali, Turk McBride, Pat Thomas, Brandon Flowers and Donnie Edwards would have put them in the Top Ten but they certainly wouldn't be at 32 had all of those players remained healthy during the season.

Hell, the reason we lost the Tampa Bay game was due to losing DJ and Flowers. Same goes for San Diego.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:29 PM
They could of "planned" by using the 2006 and 2007 draft to address needs and fill spots with quality players maybe?

For some reason people think we never had a draft until this year. How many players from the 2006 and 2007 draft are making big impacts on this team?

And for some reason, a guy with 13,000 posts on a Chiefs forum has somehow missed the fact that Herm and Kuharich hadn't had complete control of the Chiefs personnel decisions until 2008.

DUH

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:29 PM
So, injuries play no part in their ranking?

Like I said, this defense was terrible at the beginning of the year when everyone was healthy. Injuries are not an excuse.


Hell, the reason we lost the Tampa Bay game was due to losing DJ and Flowers. Same goes for San Diego.

We lost the Tampa Bay game because Herm took his foot off the gas on offense.

dirk digler
12-01-2008, 11:29 PM
we can't really judge how bad they were, or how good they could have been without the injuries.

Lets face it - it's not the end all be all, but there is a certain specific relationship to performing lower than expected when battling cronic injuies, starters on the line, the LBs and the backfield. This all = more factual problems that can be explained than "excuses" for the lack of production....

Going all the way back to the Jets Herm's teams have always been injury plagued.

Why is that? Is it bad luck or is there something else?

My gut feeling is Herm doesn't practice the team hard and doesn't have them prepared mentally and physically to play.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:30 PM
Like I said, this defense was terrible at the beginning of the year when everyone was healthy. Injuries are not an excuse.



We lost the Tampa Bay game because Herm took his foot off the gas on offense.

Bullshit.

Apparently, you didn't see Tamba Bay come back when the score was 24-6.

Yep, that was ALL on the offense. :shake:

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:31 PM
Bullshit.

Apparently, you didn't see Tamba Bay come back when the score was 24-6.

Yep, that was ALL on the offense.

The offense that scored three points in the second half.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:33 PM
The offense that scored three points in the second half.

Oh, so now the offense needs to score 48 points a game to win?

Against (at the time) the best defense in the league?

Do you even WATCH football?

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:35 PM
Oh, so now the offense needs to score 48 points a game to win?


Hey, Herm's the one who coached the game like he had a good defense, not me.

Then he threw the undrafted free agent under the bus after the game and cut him.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:45 PM
Hey, Herm's the one who coached the game like he had a good defense, not me.

Then he threw the undrafted free agent under the bus after the game and cut him.

They should have been cut, don't you think? I don't they should have even been in the league.

But yes, I agree: Herm tends to coach as if he's got Tampa Bay's 1997-2000 defense on the field. He has way too much confidence in his defense and it's cost him and the Chiefs victories.

crazycoffey
12-01-2008, 11:53 PM
Going all the way back to the Jets Herm's teams have always been injury plagued.

Why is that? Is it bad luck or is there something else?

My gut feeling is Herm doesn't practice the team hard and doesn't have them prepared mentally and physically to play.


I know it sucks, and I just said on another thread about something totally unrelated, "if something seems too coincidental often times it is".

But in the case of Marty and playoff loses and Herm with the injuries, it's a coincidental phenomena. I don't believe Marty loses playoff games just because he's marty and I don't believe Herm has injuries just because he's herm.

that's preposterous

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2008, 11:55 PM
that's preposterous

That's a mighty big word for you, Coffey.

Been drinkin' tonight?

ROFL

booger
12-01-2008, 11:55 PM
Gunther is just all over the place with some of the ideas he gets.

Anyone remember when we first brought in McGlockton? All that money and the 2nd rounder and Gunther moves him from day 1 to LDE. In the Falcon scheme but still he moves him to LDE. He got hurt and missed the first 6 games and a year later he plays LDT with Hicks at LDE and Hicks has the best year of his entire career because of the havoc McGlockton causes playing the 3technique.

This year with Boone at LDE it was because of what he learned in Tennessee watching Kevin Carter play LDE at 317 lbs. Carter got bigger as he got older but still played well at that size and was stout against the run. Now a DT because of that. Whereas Boone is a DT that can fill in at DE.

Donnie Edwards started off as the replacement for Simien in the first year of the Falcon and played MLB. He actually played the Falcon/Rush end when DT had a torn triceps and got 6 sacks in one year. He's also had Edwards on both the strong and weak side just like he has DJ.

He's got Dorsey playing the 2 tech or NT instead of Tank and has Tank at the LDT. Not to mention having NOTHING at MLB besides Nap Harris and picking out Pat Thomas an OLB and sticking him in there.

His first year back he says he won't try to teach the 46 that TEN runs once in a while because it is too hard to teach and we screwed around with it early in the season especially the first game against oakland and gave up 300 yards rushing.

He has Demo williams rushing from LOLB with a cast on his hand instead of flipping DJ back over there and getting some pass rush.

Even after the falcon years of 97-98 he moves DT off the line and back to the strong side(which was what he called it, actually the weak side at ROLB and Edwards was just moved to the weak side/actually strong side at LOLB as they let Anthony Davis go to FA and signed Patton at MLB)

He's the wrong guy if you want to build a defense and build consistancy. He switches things up every year and just ends up confusing everyone.

Count Alex's Wins
12-01-2008, 11:58 PM
What's amazing, booger, is that the players all love him.

DaneMcCloud
12-02-2008, 12:00 AM
What's amazing, booger, is that the players all love him.

My source (Nick) tell me he's great with sausage

TinkyWinky

booger
12-02-2008, 12:09 AM
What's amazing, booger, is that the players all love him.

I think DJ came close this season to telling him to go F himself before the Denver(i think) game and had a great game. Basically told him to put him in position to just play like he did in college and that he was thinking too much with what he was asked to do.

It's good that Boiman who was with him in TEN is here because no one else has learned the defense enough to come in and play LB. Harris had trouble last year and of course this year before getting cut and now Williams is only getting PT because of injuries to Edwards and Boiman filling in for Thomas or he would be playing instead.

It's pretty clear that he has Pull in the ORG. That comes from Carl and his being close. Also Herm is no Marty and doesn't have the background as a DC.

I just find it too risky to keep him around with his inconsistancies and erraticness let alone telling players he will cut their heads off.

The secondary is coached well by Gibbs and Herm likes to jump in with what he knows and that unit ( Pollard aside ) is looking good. The front 7 is where we have the problems and the LB unit which Gun coaches is in the worst shape of any position group on the team.

Give the players another year of Gun and I'm sure they won't like him too well.

booger
12-02-2008, 12:14 AM
I like Gun.

You just have to keep him on a short leash. That's why Belicheck wanted to talk to him and it would have been a good fit.

He's not the right guy for us going forward

crazycoffey
12-02-2008, 01:16 AM
That's a mighty big word for you, Coffey.

Been drinkin' tonight?

ROFL

I've used that word many times, and I drink most every night, I fail to see the significance....

DaneMcCloud
12-02-2008, 01:20 AM
I've used that word many times, and I drink most every night, I fail to see the significance....

ROFL

Just teasin', Bro.

No offense intended, whatsoever.

crazycoffey
12-02-2008, 01:25 AM
ROFL

Just teasin', Bro.

No offense intended, whatsoever.


I'm just playin along....:D

Tuckdaddy
12-02-2008, 07:12 AM
Continuity is very important to winning. Cowher, Fisher, Shula, Shanny, Holmgren just to name a few.

SenselessChiefsFan
12-02-2008, 07:20 AM
After his first season without his dad around, Clark completely neutered Carl Peterson and allowed the team to abandon the way they'd been doing business for 20 years. He did this in the hopes that the team will eventually be better for it, as opposed to watching Carl's parade of 9-7 crap for the past decade.

Clark's faith in Herm being the right guy to see it through is surely misguided. But it truly boggles the mind how people can sit around and act like Clark is disinterested or that he hasn't done anything.

I don't know if it is misguided, but I do think that he 'believes' in Herm. He makes more money firing him and hiring someone else. But, he is willing to stick it out.

We shall see how it all goes, but he wants to win, not just turn a profit.

SenselessChiefsFan
12-02-2008, 07:26 AM
Herm takes a top 3 offense and helps drive it down to #32 and now people are happy KC has the 27th ranked offense. Change you can believe in!

Age drove the offense down. Herm is rebuilding with youth.

SenselessChiefsFan
12-02-2008, 07:34 AM
I think most people felt the defense would take a step backwards.

For it to take a GIANT LEAP backwards is inexcusable.

Herm and Gunther horribly misjudged the talent available.

I don't think they horribly misjudged the talent. I think the Chiefs decided to finally rebuild the right way and chose to live with the consequences.

King_Chief_Fan
12-02-2008, 08:55 AM
I don't think they horribly misjudged the talent. I think the Chiefs decided to finally rebuild the right way and chose to live with the consequences.

one of the few times I agree with Clayton....The talent has been horrible mis-judged. It is the guys coming off the scrap heaps of other teams that are starting to make a little difference...which is more than we can say about those on the injury list.

BigChiefFan
12-02-2008, 08:59 AM
Continuity is very important to winning. Cowher, Fisher, Shula, Shanny, Holmgren just to name a few.

Switzer.:D
Continuity, my ass.

BigChiefFan
12-02-2008, 09:03 AM
Rebuild the right way, means pursuing players that other teams don't think are any good? Yep, stellar plan.

Mr. Plow
12-02-2008, 09:28 AM
Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense.

Do we have to rehash history here?

2006: No Roaf, essentially no Trent Green.
2007: 4-3 leading the AFC West until a rash of injuries (including LJ) hit. Chiefs lose out.
2008: Brodie out in game one. Huard sucks. Thigpen sucks. No offense, no plan. Game 7 in NY: Team begins to gel. From 12 points a game to 24 points a game, with the youngest team in the league.

It doesn't matter how it happened or if you want to argue whether or not Herm took of the kid gloves and allowed Gailey to devise an effective offense.

The bottom line is that it happened. And the season isn't even over.

2006: Huard plays above capabilities being the #2 rated QB in the league. Offense falls from #1 overall in 2005 to #16 overall in 2006.

2007: KC falls from #16 overall offensively in 2006 to #31 overall in 2007.

2008: KC improves to #25 overall offensively after 12 games.

I guess we are just going to agree to disagree Dane. I'm seeing a decline in offensive production from the moment Herm took over until the past 6 games, you are seeing the improvement of the last 6 games.

chiefzilla1501
12-02-2008, 05:16 PM
Rebuild the right way, means pursuing players that other teams don't think are any good? Yep, stellar plan.

I don't think 2006 was a particularly good draft. But anyone who rips on the 2007 and 2008 draft is reaching for things to argue about. Too many people act like it's normal for a team to hit on 50% of their draft picks. The reality is, most teams hit on well below that number. Too many people act like the only valuable players from the draft are starters. THe reality is, the consistently great teams like New England and Pittsburgh have a long, long line of depth players who are more role players than starters--a roster is made of 53 players, not 20.

In terms of personnel, we are rebuilding the right way. We've had an outstanding draft in 2008. We cut down our enormous needs list in about half. We're pulling some terrific players out of the undrafted pool, including Connor Barth and Mike Cox. We're doing a terrific job of scouting other teams' scraps like Thigpen and Bradley and Boiman and Babin and finding a way to make them work--these are guys that cost nothing and are "low commitment" in that if you cut them, nobody cares or notices.

Depth is extremely underrated. A lot of players we have right now would make terrific depth: Taylor, Niswanger, McIntosh (as a backup LT), Boiman, McBride, Morgan, Kolby Smith, hell even Brodie Croyle could be a great guy to have as a backup. This team has a long way to go, but the foundation is being built.

I agree we may not have the coach to bring this group to the next level, but I don't see why there is so much pushback against the personnel strategy.

Rausch
12-02-2008, 05:23 PM
2006: Huard plays above capabilities being the #2 rated QB in the league. Offense falls from #1 overall in 2005 to #16 overall in 2006.

2007: KC falls from #16 overall offensively in 2006 to #31 overall in 2007.

2008: KC improves to #25 overall offensively after 12 games.

I guess we are just going to agree to disagree Dane. I'm seeing a decline in offensive production from the moment Herm took over until the past 6 games, you are seeing the improvement of the last 6 games.

What you're seeing is the result of two HOF offensive lineman retiring and a total douchebag as HC.

It could have been any douchebag willing to concentrate on defese as the 0 was falling apart, names don't matter. But, since we do have Herm, your bucks stop there...

DaneMcCloud
12-02-2008, 05:25 PM
2006: Huard plays above capabilities being the #2 rated QB in the league. Offense falls from #1 overall in 2005 to #16 overall in 2006.

2007: KC falls from #16 overall offensively in 2006 to #31 overall in 2007.

2008: KC improves to #25 overall offensively after 12 games.

I guess we are just going to agree to disagree Dane. I'm seeing a decline in offensive production from the moment Herm took over until the past 6 games, you are seeing the improvement of the last 6 games.

2006: No Roaf, no Saunders, essentially no Trent Green
2007: No Roaf, no Shields, no Trent Green, no LJ for final 8 games
2008: No Brodie, no Huard, Albert injured in TC. Game 7, things begin to click. 2nd year QB, 2nd year WR, 2nd year center, rookie LT, rookie RB, TE & WR all make significant contributions.

What would you prefer: An improving offense with the majority of the starters drafted and developed by the Chiefs or a team of veteran free-agents?

I'd prefer the former. Which is exactly what's happened since Herm went to Clark and said "Let's blow this thing up".

chiefzilla1501
12-02-2008, 05:31 PM
What you're seeing is the result of two HOF offensive lineman retiring and a total douchebag as HC.

It could have been any douchebag willing to concentrate on defese as the 0 was falling apart, names don't matter. But, since we do have Herm, your bucks stop there...

My biggest defense here is that it was Carl Peterson who sat and watched as his entire offensive line minus Waters plateaued and hit age 30. He was the one who watched his #1 receiver and QB hit well above the plateau age. Kennison, Green, Shields, Roaf, Wiegmann, and Holmes got too old to play. T-Rich and Gonzalez are somehow still trucking well past the age that they should.

Not only did Peterson watch this happen, but he also went through 6 drafts where the only person to replace those old players was Larry Johnson. They whiffed on every lineman, receiver, and tight end they drafted in that span.

I've brought this point up multiple times and am continually surprised that nobody addresses this point. Every single person in America knew that the Chiefs' offense was getting ridiculously old. Every single person in KC knew that our drafting from '99-'03 was not just bad, it was embarrassing. An old team with no young players in the pipeline? How can that kind of an offense NOT implode?

Herm is an offensive doofus. But let's be clear that Carl Peterson is the main reason this offense fell to the shitter.

DaneMcCloud
12-02-2008, 05:34 PM
I've brought this point up multiple times and am continually surprised that nobody addresses this point. Every single person in America knew that the Chiefs' offense was getting ridiculously old. Every single person in KC knew that our drafting from '99-'03 was not just bad, it was embarrassing. An old team with no young players in the pipeline? How can that kind of an offense NOT implode?

You've only been here since August. This has been discussed ad nauseam for the past 8 years.

chiefzilla1501
12-02-2008, 08:02 PM
You've only been here since August. This has been discussed ad nauseam for the past 8 years.

Just checking. Because every time I bring up that point, people call me a Herm apologist.

FringeNC
12-02-2008, 08:10 PM
2006: No Roaf, no Saunders, essentially no Trent Green
2007: No Roaf, no Shields, no Trent Green, no LJ for final 8 games
2008: No Brodie, no Huard, Albert injured in TC. Game 7, things begin to click. 2nd year QB, 2nd year WR, 2nd year center, rookie LT, rookie RB, TE & WR all make significant contributions.

What would you prefer: An improving offense with the majority of the starters drafted and developed by the Chiefs or a team of veteran free-agents?

I'd prefer the former. Which is exactly what's happened since Herm went to Clark and said "Let's blow this thing up".

Amazing. No mention of Herm's jihad against the circus offense.

MahiMike
12-02-2008, 08:12 PM
Continuity is very important to winning. Cowher, Fisher, Shula, Shanny, Holmgren just to name a few.

In Herm and Carl's case, continuity assures losing.:cuss:

Spicy McHaggis
12-02-2008, 09:51 PM
Said that Clark was a proponent of the Steelers approach of continuity...:

Ah, so that's what we're calling it now.

Mr. Plow
12-03-2008, 08:57 AM
2006: No Roaf, no Saunders, essentially no Trent Green
2007: No Roaf, no Shields, no Trent Green, no LJ for final 8 games
2008: No Brodie, no Huard, Albert injured in TC. Game 7, things begin to click. 2nd year QB, 2nd year WR, 2nd year center, rookie LT, rookie RB, TE & WR all make significant contributions.

What would you prefer: An improving offense with the majority of the starters drafted and developed by the Chiefs or a team of veteran free-agents?

I'd prefer the former. Which is exactly what's happened since Herm went to Clark and said "Let's blow this thing up".

You keep bringing up injuries, but you fail to bring up the fact that Herm has always been horrible offensively - with the Jets & the Chiefs. Be that as it may, we just agree to disagree.