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Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 05:15 PM
For Herm to keep his job after next season he will have to draft a first round QB. (Depending on TT) After all he had all season to evaluate Thiggys talent. If he goes with him and he flops it will be Herms fault. If however he takes the draft a high QB road then he is safe. If the QB flops then at least he tried to boost the franchise. If he does ok then it gives Herm another season to develop the youngster.

I personally would like to see us pick up a pure pass rusher or figure out the LB situation...

I've got that answer right now;there's no situation because we have no Linebackers.

OnTheWarpath58
12-08-2008, 05:21 PM
Then this is where we part ways.

I simply don't have much confidence him Thigpen's ability to develop 'pretty good passing ability' at least in relation to other NFL QBs.

Yes, he'll be able to throw a ball through a swinging tire more often than anyone I'll ever meet in my life, but I don't ever imagine he'll be even in the top 1/3 of the NFL in accuracy or yards per attempt due to his erratic arm (and the fact that he seems flat out bad on deep routes...something that doesn't really improve much). His accuracy on intermediate routes is as bad as anyone I've seen in the league this year. Somebody mentioned the TD to Gonzo, oh c'mon, that's a college level pass. He hit a massive target on an out route, it wasn't a difficult throw by NFL standards at all.

Having a mid-tier QB simply doesn't do much for me. As has already been stated in this thread, he's someone you keep around until you can replace him. His only hope is to show much improved accuracy. I'm willing to give him that chance next season, but I don't hold out much hope.

I want to like the kid, but I just don't see it happening.

For the most part, his accuracy (as well as any other QB's )will improve with his footwork.

It seems the majority of his bad throws occur when he's either on the run, or doesn't step into his throw.

He's what, 8 starts into a pro career? As a 7th round pick? It's not going to happen overnight, but to say he'll NEVER be accurate is going a bit overboard, IMO.

It's kids like Thigpen that make me wish we had a competent fucking coaching staff...

el borracho
12-08-2008, 05:37 PM
Tony is arguably the greatest TE of all time but he is way too much a pollyanna for me to trust his personnel evaluations. Every freakin year Tony tells us it's the best team he's ever been on, even years like this one where it was painfully obvious in July that the team was going to suck.

Obviously, Thigpen should be the starter next year but there is no reason to give Thigpen a long-term deal at this point and absolutely no reason not to take a top QB if one is available in the draft. That is just crazy talk.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 05:38 PM
For the most part, his accuracy (as well as any other QB's )will improve with his footwork.

It seems the majority of his bad throws occur when he's either on the run, or doesn't step into his throw.

He's what, 8 starts into a pro career? As a 7th round pick? It's not going to happen overnight, but to say he'll NEVER be accurate is going a bit overboard, IMO.

It's kids like Thigpen that make me wish we had a competent fucking coaching staff...

And there it was. :thumb:

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 05:44 PM
Tony is arguably the greatest TE of all time but he is way too much a pollyanna for me to trust his personnel evaluations. Every freakin year Tony tells us it's the best team he's ever been on, even years like this one where it was painfully obvious in July that the team was going to suck.

Obviously, Thigpen should be the starter next year but there is no reason to give Thigpen a long-term deal at this point and absolutely no reason not to take a top QB if one is available in the draft. That is just crazy talk.

He can be the eternal optimist, I know. But he IS THE GUY ON THE FIELD CATCHING THE PASSES.

Not to mention he knows Chiefs football better than you and I EVER will.

TG has earned the right to say whatever the fuck he pleases about this franchise, and if he leaves; everyone on this board will have geothermal meltdown because his absence changes EVERYTHING about the 2009 draft.

el borracho
12-08-2008, 05:49 PM
Oh, Tony can say whatever he likes but I get to decide what I do or do not believe.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that losing Tony would change everything about the 2009 draft; what would that change? We just took Cottam in the third this year and we have too many needs to burn a 1st day pick on a TE. If Tony goes, we take a TE in the 5th or 6th or 7th or simply place a call to Merrit or the guy we drafted two years ago (can't recall his name at the moment). There is really no chance we draft a TE early in 2009.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 05:58 PM
Oh, Tony can say whatever he likes but I get to decide what I do or do not believe.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that losing Tony would change everything about the 2009 draft; what would that change? We just took Cottam in the third this year and we have too many needs to burn a 1st day pick on a TE. If Tony goes, we take a TE in the 5th or 6th or 7th or simply place a call to Merrit or the guy we drafted two years ago (can't recall his name at the moment). There is really no chance we draft a TE early in 2009.

Not a TE; your never gonna' get that back. But if he leaves, expect that another high profile receiver will be added to the board.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 05:58 PM
Tony is arguably the greatest TE of all time but he is way too much a pollyanna for me to trust his personnel evaluations. Every freakin year Tony tells us it's the best team he's ever been on, even years like this one where it was painfully obvious in July that the team was going to suck.

Obviously, Thigpen should be the starter next year but there is no reason to give Thigpen a long-term deal at this point and absolutely no reason not to take a top QB if one is available in the draft. That is just crazy talk.

Gonzalez isn't going to rip into anybody, but this is one of his strongest voices of support for anybody. I definitely did not hear this kind of clear display of support for Croyle last year.

el borracho
12-08-2008, 06:00 PM
Not a TE; your never gonna' get that back. But if he leaves, expect that another high profile receiver will be added to the board.

Hell, I hope they do that anyway. We have one WR and he get the dropsies too often, IMO.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 06:05 PM
Hell, I hope they do that anyway. We have one WR and he get the dropsies too often, IMO.

That's what I'm saying; Tony's career is a once in a lifetime event, both for the franchise and the position. The TE position will no longer be used to the extent it is being used right now. Tony is very much an anomaly in the NFL.

Mark M
12-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Obviously, Thigpen should be the starter next year but there is no reason to give Thigpen a long-term deal at this point and absolutely no reason not to take a top QB if one is available in the draft. That is just crazy talk.

Anything I added to that would be mere ornamentation.

MM
~~:clap:

philfree
12-08-2008, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by el borracho
Obviously, Thigpen should be the starter next year but there is no reason to give Thigpen a long-term deal at this point and absolutely no reason not to take a top QB if one is available in the draft. That is just crazy talk.

QBs drop like flies in the NFL so teams really do need a quality #2. Seems to me we will be in perfect position to have two good QBs if we draft one early in the draft. Thigpen will be the starter and we'll have plenty of time to develope our highly drafted QB. Well unless Thigpen gets injured and can't play. But that's still the perfect scenario as far as developing a franchise QB. I can't believe that with all the trouble the Chiefs have Trying to develope a franchise QB that so many fans have jumped on the Thigpen wagon and are ready to move on with him and think our QB woes are over. Wouldn't it be nice to actually have our QB situation completely solve for a number of years?

PhilFree:arrow:

Davechief
12-08-2008, 07:12 PM
I don"t remember the last time I saw a young QB come in and play as effectively as Thigpen as after just 6 or 7 games. Granted the Chiefs have only won one game in that time span, but I'm not sure there is a pressing need to draft a QB in the 1st round. We have to get some help with our pass rush either thru free agency or the draft. Six @%$#! sacks all season. We have plenty of holes on this team, but I don't think there is one more glaring than the need for a bonafide pass rusher!

bishop_74
12-08-2008, 07:16 PM
What is the biggest reason for Thigpen not completing passes? Innacuracy or dropped passes? I don't have the data, but I would suggest the data leans towards dropped passes. JUST sayin... if you don't want him as our QB next year then you are completely wrong. :)

Davechief
12-08-2008, 07:18 PM
What is the biggest reason for Thigpen not copleting passes? Innacuracy or dropped passes? I don't have the data, but I would suggest the data leans towards dropped passes. JUST sayin... if you don't want him as our QB NExt year then you are completely wrong. :)

Maybe we should ask Dwayne Bowe?

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 07:29 PM
Maybe we should ask Dwayne Bowe?

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/c2c27961.jpg
You sir, are a formidable opponent!

KcMizzou
12-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Tony is arguably the greatest TE of all time but he is way too much a pollyanna for me to trust his personnel evaluations. Every freakin year Tony tells us it's the best team he's ever been on, even years like this one where it was painfully obvious in July that the team was going to suck.

Obviously, Thigpen should be the starter next year but there is no reason to give Thigpen a long-term deal at this point and absolutely no reason not to take a top QB if one is available in the draft. That is just crazy talk.Meh, what else is he supposed to say?

Mecca
12-08-2008, 07:40 PM
Meh, what else is he supposed to say?

Pretty much, that's why I laughed at this...he's not going to say anyone on the team sucks.

If you asked Tony what he thought the team should do it would involve drafting lineman so he doesn't have to block anymore.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 07:48 PM
Yea, lets' turn the franchise over to Thigpen. After all, he's effective. That means we can go 8-8 or maybe 9-7 and lose our first playoff game.

I've seen this before. I'm not anxious to relive it.

el borracho
12-08-2008, 07:51 PM
Meh, what else is he supposed to say?

"Oh, Tony can say whatever he likes but I get to decide what I do or do not believe."

Davechief
12-08-2008, 07:55 PM
Yea, lets' turn the franchise over to Thigpen. After all, he's effective. That means we can go 8-8 or maybe 9-7 and lose our first playoff game.

I've seen this before. I'm not anxious to relive it.

How about King Carl signing another 49er QB castoff. There should be one available soon.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 08:09 PM
How about King Carl signing another 49er QB castoff. There should be one available soon.


Better yet Dave, let's hitch the franchise wagon to the star of a 7th round pick from Coastal Carolina.

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 08:11 PM
What is the biggest reason for Thigpen not completing passes? Innacuracy or dropped passes? I don't have the data, but I would suggest the data leans towards dropped passes. JUST sayin... if you don't want him as our QB next year then you are completely wrong. :)

he spent the 2nd half missing WRs...the worst of which, besides missing darling deep for a TD, was two consecutive throws from under center, in the redzone, that were only catchable by fans...

the only meaningful drops were the two ints that were dropped/overturned by Denver...

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 08:12 PM
How about King Carl signing another 49er QB castoff. There should be one available soon.

don't joke, because we are going to...just wait....

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 08:18 PM
don't joke, because we are going to...just wait....

Chiefs have a better shot statiscally at winning the Super Bowl with Alex Smith than they would Thigpen.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 08:24 PM
How about King Carl signing another 49er QB castoff. There should be one available soon.

What I like, is when we're watching the game and posting in the game thread, and the Chiefs "Wave 'em on through / No Pass Rush"-defense is stinking up the joint, and you ask people if they would rather, at this moment in time, have a pass-rush than a new QB and they say yes, and when the game is over they forget about their position and head directly back to the "Old Quarterback Trail".

It's awesome.

Chiefs fans are smart and rule.

Yayy...:rolleyes:

Davechief
12-08-2008, 08:24 PM
don't joke, because we are going to...just wait....

Oh I wasn't joking, I can see it happening. We'll do that & then draft another safety to play CB!

Mecca
12-08-2008, 08:27 PM
What I like, is when we're watching the game and posting in the game thread, and the Chiefs "Wave 'em on through / No Pass Rush"-defense is stinking up the joint, and you ask people if they would rather, at this moment in time, have a pass-rush than a new QB and they say yes, and when the game is over they forget about their position and head directly back to the "Old Quarterback Trail".

It's awesome.

Chiefs fans are smart and rule.

Yayy...:rolleyes:

You are aware this is about more than just next year and what will win us the most games right now right?

I don't care who you put on this team next year, they are likely not winning more than 4 or 5 games.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-08-2008, 08:27 PM
he spent the 2nd half missing WRs...the worst of which, besides missing darling deep for a TD, was two consecutive throws from under center, in the redzone, that were only catchable by fans...

the only meaningful drops were the two ints that were dropped/overturned by Denver...

What about the ball that went through Franklin's hands?? That should have been a big play.

kcbubb
12-08-2008, 08:28 PM
QBs drop like flies in the NFL so teams really do need a quality #2. Seems to me we will be in perfect position to have two good QBs if we draft one early in the draft. Thigpen will be the starter and we'll have plenty of time to develope our highly drafted QB. Well unless Thigpen gets injured and can't play. But that's still the perfect scenario as far as developing a franchise QB. I can't believe that with all the trouble the Chiefs have Trying to develope a franchise QB that so many fans have jumped on the Thigpen wagon and are ready to move on with him and think our QB woes are over. Wouldn't it be nice to actually have our QB situation completely solve for a number of years?

PhilFree:arrow:

I really don't understand why fans have such a love affair with drafting QBs. Why do you guys get so aroused by the thought of drafting a QB??? QB is one of the highest bust positions to draft and veteran QB's can be very successful. Look at the titans and the cardinals this year. They both have first round picks sitting on the bench. Matt Leinart and Vince Young may end up being great QB's in this league, but Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins are playing better right now.

If you draft a young QB, you can forget next season. The chiefs will suck. Successful college QB's have talented teams around them. You don't see a lot them taking hits. You often see them with successful running games. One thing that you see in KC is a bad running game and QBs that get hit a lot. Wake up people! IF WE DRAFT STAFFORD OR BRADFORD THEY WILL GET KILLED BEHIND OUR LINE.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 08:30 PM
Chiefs have a better shot statiscally at winning the Super Bowl with Alex Smith than they would Thigpen.

How many 7th round draft picks have started in the NFL? And how many of them were given a legit chance to play in the NFL? You keep throwing these statistics out as if there is no way in hell a 7th round pick could win a Super Bowl, simply because it hasn't been done before. What I would suggest is that 99% of these QBs drafted in the 7th round were probably never given a chance to play. And those who did, were probably given about 3 or 4 games at the most to prove themselves. In most cases, when the team's only option is a 7th round starter at QB, they'll immediately go out and draft a QB in the first round or sign some veteran washout QB. If Huard or Croyle stayed healthy, good chance Thigpen was cut after this season and good chance nobody ever picked him up.

I understand your point that first round picks are more likely to win Super Bowls. But you are using statistics very loosely. You are assuming that a 7th round pick is given the same opportunities to succeed as a 1st rounder. And that's clearly not the case. First round picks like Peyton Manning are allowed to keep their jobs even if in their rookie season, they throw over 20 INTs. And I understand that most QBs who fall to the 6th and 7th round fall there for a reason and that Brady is an exception, rather than a rule.

Your statistic is skewed by the fact that almost every first round QB ever drafted has been given a chance to start at one point in his career and almost every one of them was given at least a year, if not 2 or 3, to prove whether he is the right/wrong QB for the job. Considering that they get exponentially more chances to start than any other drafted round, it's no wonder they are more likely to succeed.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 08:32 PM
I really don't understand why fans have such a love affair with drafting QBs. Why do you guys get so aroused by the thought of drafting a QB??? QB is one of the highest bust positions to draft and veteran QB's can be very successful. Look at the titans and the cardinals this year. They both have first round picks sitting on the bench. Matt Leinart and Vince Young may end up being great QB's in this league, but Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins are playing better right now.

If you draft a young QB, you can forget next season. The chiefs will suck. Successful college QB's have talented teams around them. You don't see a lot them taking hits. You often see them with successful running games. One thing that you see in KC is a bad running game and QBs that get hit a lot. Wake up people! IF WE DRAFT STAFFORD OR BRADFORD THEY WILL GET KILLED BEHIND OUR LINE.

Why do people have such hardons for building the kind of team that losses in the playoffs?

You take a risk to be great, and guess what every position has had players bust at it.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 08:33 PM
Why do people have such hardons for building the kind of team that losses in the playoffs?

You take a risk to be great, and guess what every position has had players bust at it.

And why do you continue to insist that taking a first round QB is a risk, given that it is probably the most conservative play in the book?

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 08:39 PM
How many 7th round draft picks have started in the NFL? And how many of them were given a legit chance to play in the NFL? You keep throwing these statistics out as if there is no way in hell a 7th round pick could win a Super Bowl, simply because it hasn't been done before. What I would suggest is that 99% of these QBs drafted in the 7th round were probably never given a chance to play. And those who did, were probably given about 3 or 4 games at the most to prove themselves. In most cases, when the team's only option is a 7th round starter at QB, they'll immediately go out and draft a QB in the first round or sign some veteran washout QB. If Huard or Croyle stayed healthy, good chance Thigpen was cut after this season and good chance nobody ever picked him up.

I understand your point that first round picks are more likely to win Super Bowls. But you are using statistics very loosely. You are assuming that a 7th round pick is given the same opportunities to succeed as a 1st rounder. And that's clearly not the case. First round picks like Peyton Manning are allowed to keep their jobs even if in their rookie season, they throw over 20 INTs. And I understand that most QBs who fall to the 6th and 7th round fall there for a reason and that Brady is an exception, rather than a rule.

Your statistic is skewed by the fact that almost every first round QB ever drafted has been given a chance to start at one point in his career and almost every one of them was given at least a year, if not 2 or 3, to prove whether he is the right/wrong QB for the job. Considering that they get exponentially more chances to start than any other drafted round, it's no wonder they are more likely to succeed.

It's more likely that a QB taken in the 7th round doesn't have the tools to be a winner.

But not with this franchise. 7th round picks have a very good chance of starting here because our front office is bunch of morons.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 08:39 PM
And why do you continue to insist that taking a first round QB is a risk, given that it is probably the most conservative play in the book?

Did you just undercut your own argument?

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 08:40 PM
Did you just undercut your own argument?

Yes, and I know I did. But the argument has been used many times and it doesn't make any sense.

Thigpen is the riskier proposition and yet his critics suggest that those who support THigpen don't want to take a risk. It doesn't add up.

memyselfI
12-08-2008, 08:42 PM
Bottom line here is either Tony Gonzalez future hall of famer really wants to stay in KC and finish his career here playing with a quality QB that he has faith will prosper for the team OR he's calling King Carl's bluff and throwing down the gauntlet knowing full well that the pressure will be enormous for Carl to pick a QB and signaling he's outta here if they are going to develop a QB and waste his time.

Either way, Tony has drawn a line in the sand here.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 08:43 PM
Yes, and I know I did. But the argument has been used many times and it doesn't make any sense.

Thigpen is the riskier proposition and yet his critics suggest that those who support THigpen don't want to take a risk. It doesn't add up.

It's not risky because if he doesn't work out he makes no money...atleast from an organization standpoint, now as a fan standpoint he's riskier but in say an owners eyes he doesn't even make a fraction of the money.

But anymore fans care how much money guys make.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 08:44 PM
Bottom line here is either Tony Gonzalez future hall of famer really wants to stay in KC and finish his career here playing with a quality QB that he has faith will prosper for the team OR he's calling King Carl's bluff and throwing down the gauntlet knowing full well that the pressure will be enormous for Carl to pick a QB and signaling he's outta here if they are going to develop a QB and waste his time.

Either way, Tony has drawn a line in the sand here.

Unless Tony becomes the GM, he ain't going anywhere. And if Tony want to retire, then I bid him farewell.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 08:45 PM
It's more likely that a QB taken in the 7th round doesn't have the tools to be a winner.

But not with this franchise. 7th round picks have a very good chance of starting here because our front office is bunch of morons.

No, it does not. All a 7th round pick label does is say that judging by the information we have now, we are not sure if this kid will be able to succeed in the NFL. It is not a branded tattoo that you can't get rid of.

Thigpen was dropped to the 7th round because there was a huge question mark about his inexperience. He played for a small school and played almost no competition in college. It had little do with his abilities. How can you judge a QB's abilities accurately if you don't even invite him to the combine?

In half a season, Thigpen has accomplished more than almost half if not more of first round picks in the history of the game (the bust rate is well above 50% for first round QBs). Knowing the information that we know now, and forget about draft status, do you really think that Thigpen would still get a 7th round grade?

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 08:48 PM
It's not risky because if he doesn't work out he makes no money...atleast from an organization standpoint, now as a fan standpoint he's riskier but in say an owners eyes he doesn't even make a fraction of the money.

But anymore fans care how much money guys make.

The decision to start Thigpen has little to nothing to do with money. The first round draft pick is a sunk cost. You have to spend on their salary regardless of whether you get a quarterback with that pick or not.

It have everything to do with whether Thigpen can be the QBOTF or not.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 08:50 PM
You are aware this is about more than just next year and what will win us the most games right now right?

I don't care who you put on this team next year, they are likely not winning more than 4 or 5 games.

Oh I get it, I just hate it when the team is so out of balance. We went from "Defense giving up on the Offense" in 2007, to a complete 180 in 2008.

I get it, I just hate it.

kcbubb
12-08-2008, 08:54 PM
How many 7th round draft picks have started in the NFL? And how many of them were given a legit chance to play in the NFL? You keep throwing these statistics out as if there is no way in hell a 7th round pick could win a Super Bowl, simply because it hasn't been done before. What I would suggest is that 99% of these QBs drafted in the 7th round were probably never given a chance to play.

I agree with your logic, but it is unneccessary. You are trying to refute the argument that you have to have a high draft QB to get to the superbowl. You don't have to have one. What you have to have is a good TEAM. You can't win unless you have a good team. QB's like Jake Delhomme, Mark Rypien, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, and Joe Montana have been pretty good superbowl QB's that were not highly drafted.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 08:56 PM
No, it does not. All a 7th round pick label does is say that judging by the information we have now, we are not sure if this kid will be able to succeed in the NFL. It is not a branded tattoo that you can't get rid of.

Thigpen was dropped to the 7th round because there was a huge question mark about his inexperience. He played for a small school and played almost no competition in college. It had little do with his abilities. How can you judge a QB's abilities accurately if you don't even invite him to the combine?

In half a season, Thigpen has accomplished more than almost half if not more of first round picks in the history of the game (the bust rate is well above 50% for first round QBs). Knowing the information that we know now, and forget about draft status, do you really think that Thigpen would still get a 7th round grade?

Thigpen went to CC because that's where his abilities dictated he go. He was drafted in the 7th round because he played at small school in a gimmick college offense because that where his abilities dictated he be drafted.

He landed with the Chiefs because by the grace of Carl, we had two qb's on the roster actually worse than Thigs. However, Thigs couldn't excel in a pro style O because his abilities dictate that he needs the Pistol. He gets praise because, when compared to Croyle and Huard, he stands out at as a competent player.

Fruit Ninja
12-08-2008, 08:57 PM
Since 2000 6 superbowl winners did not have first round draft pick quarterbacks starting. just saying.

actually 5. Trent Dilfer was a first rounder, but he wasnt ever close to being an elite QB.

kcbubb
12-08-2008, 08:57 PM
this is who we need.

One of the hardest hitters in all of college football, and perhaps the most feared defender, USC linebacker Rey Maualuga passed on entering the NFL Draft in 2008 following his junior season despite being projected as a first-round prospect.
He's a big linebacker at 6-3 and 260 pounds, but he carries his size well. He's a very smooth athlete with sideline-to-sideline speed and even better short-range quickness. He possesses great instincts, has a nose for the ball, and always seems to be playing downhill. He's also a very fierce hitter.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 09:00 PM
this is who we need.

One of the hardest hitters in all of college football, and perhaps the most feared defender, USC linebacker Rey Maualuga passed on entering the NFL Draft in 2008 following his junior season despite being projected as a first-round prospect.
He's a big linebacker at 6-3 and 260 pounds, but he carries his size well. He's a very smooth athlete with sideline-to-sideline speed and even better short-range quickness. He possesses great instincts, has a nose for the ball, and always seems to be playing downhill. He's also a very fierce hitter.

No way the Chiefs won't take Maualuga his hair isn't up to team standard.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 09:00 PM
I'd take Maualuga. As long as it meant we fired Gunther and forced him to eat the lenses of those yellow glasses.

Von Dumbass
12-08-2008, 09:00 PM
His accuracy scares me too. But keep in mind that accuracy is not the only component of a QB. While Cutler can put the ball on a rope better than Thigpen, Thigpen has the kind of mobility that guys like Cutler and Brady can never have. That gives a coaching staff a lot more options in their ability to bootleg him out, have him throw on the run, etc....

That's one of the reasons why I'm particularly intrigued with Thigpen. I realize he has flaws in his game right now, but those who discredit him for his accuracy are assuming that the only kind of passer in the NFL is a pure pocket passer. It's rare to find a QB who is an outstanding runner but also an accomplished passer. If Thigpen can continue to improve his passing ability, his ability as a dual threat becomes all the more dangerous. Big Ben and Romo are not particularly accurate QBs, but they're extremely elusive.

Vick and Young could have been ultra-dangerous QBs if they could have just learned how to throw the ball. Thigpen is more advanced than those two players are. That's a big reason why I think he has a much higher ceiling than some people give him credit for.

Cutler is one of the better scramblers in the league. He is also really good at sliding and avoiding the rush in the pocket and hitting his guy downfield.

Thigpen makes one read and if it's not there he runs. Dre Bly said after the game he knew he was going to try and run if his first option was covered.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 09:06 PM
Cutler is one of the better scramblers in the league. He is also really good at sliding and avoiding the rush in the pocket and hitting his guy downfield.

Thigpen makes one read and if it's not there he runs. Dre Bly said after the game he knew he was going to try and run if his first option was covered.

How many times have you actually seen Thigpen run after only looking at one option?

You are basing your analysis on a quote Bly made about that one play in that one situation. For as good as Gailey has been, his red zone playcalling has been somewhat suspect and he has traditionally designed a single read on goal line passes. Such that if Thigpen doesn't have the primary option open, then there is nowhere else to look because the playcall doesn't account for a secondary option.

Don't confuse that with the fact that Thigpen only wants to tuck the ball under and run. If anything, Bly's comment was a suggestion that he knew exactly what play Gailey would call in that situation.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 09:08 PM
Since 2000 6 superbowl winners did not have first round draft pick quarterbacks starting. just saying.

actually 5. Trent Dilfer was a first rounder, but he wasnt ever close to being an elite QB.

Neither was Grossman.

And that says a lot, because as I've said many times before, lower round QBs aren't given the same opportunities to succeed as 1st round QBs are. As badly as Grossman and Boller and Harrington and Leftwich played, they kept their job for several seasons. No way a coach would be that patient with a guy like Tyler Thigpen.

Von Dumbass
12-08-2008, 09:13 PM
How many times have you actually seen Thigpen run after only looking at one option?

You are basing your analysis on a quote Bly made about that one play in that one situation. For as good as Gailey has been, his red zone playcalling has been somewhat suspect and he has traditionally designed a single read on goal line passes. Such that if Thigpen doesn't have the primary option open, then there is nowhere else to look because the playcall doesn't account for a secondary option.

Don't confuse that with the fact that Thigpen only wants to tuck the ball under and run. If anything, Bly's comment was a suggestion that he knew exactly what play Gailey would call in that situation.

I have no clue I was going on Dre Bly's word here and I have only watched him play in the SD and Denver games. He does seem to target Bowe and TG on most of his passes.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:17 PM
I'd take Maualuga. As long as it meant we fired Gunther and forced him to eat the lenses of those yellow glasses.

Further Gun depression; I'm watching Ryan Simm's Panthers destroy Tampa Bay.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 09:19 PM
Further Gun depression; I'm watching Ryan Simm's Panthers destroy Tampa Bay.

No you're not.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 09:22 PM
I have no clue I was going on Dre Bly's word here and I have only watched him play in the SD and Denver games. He does seem to target Bowe and TG on most of his passes.

He favors Gonzo and Bowe, but that's what happens when you go from good to absolute crap on the next notch on the ladder. Thigpen was spreading the ball a lot better when Bradley was in the lineup healthy.

I was amazed when I learned that Thigpen leads NFL QBs in rushing, because I don't see him use it as a big part of his game as guys like Vick and Young used to do. I've seen him use it more as a way of buying himself more time and rolling right to throw on the run.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:23 PM
No you're not.

31-17 begs to differ.

OnTheWarpath58
12-08-2008, 09:25 PM
31-17 begs to differ.

The fact that Sims plays for Tampa, not Carolina, begs to differ.

KcMizzou
12-08-2008, 09:26 PM
The fact that Sims plays for Tampa, not Carolina, begs to differ.LMAO Pwned.

philfree
12-08-2008, 09:27 PM
I really don't understand why fans have such a love affair with drafting QBs. Why do you guys get so aroused by the thought of drafting a QB??? QB is one of the highest bust positions to draft and veteran QB's can be very successful. Look at the titans and the cardinals this year. They both have first round picks sitting on the bench. Matt Leinart and Vince Young may end up being great QB's in this league, but Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins are playing better right now.

If you draft a young QB, you can forget next season.

You don't know that. Like I posted Thigpen will be the starter next year even if we draft a QB in the 1st round. We also have a ton of cap space and low draft picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. So if we get lucky and end up with Stafford we will still be in position acquire more talent in the draft and through free agency. I don't know the plan but armed with a couple more decent draft picks and a few key free agents our O line and team can be much better. Finding a pass rush will be the hardest thing for us to fix IMO but I not 100% sold on the top guys as top five picks.

PhilFree:arrow:

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 09:27 PM
31-17 begs to differ.Originally Posted by Darth CarlSatan
Further Gun depression; I'm watching Ryan Simm's Panthers destroy Tampa Bay.

Darth, Sims plays for the Bucs.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 09:27 PM
Thigpen went to CC because that's where his abilities dictated he go. He was drafted in the 7th round because he played at small school in a gimmick college offense because that where his abilities dictated he be drafted.

He landed with the Chiefs because by the grace of Carl, we had two qb's on the roster actually worse than Thigs. However, Thigs couldn't excel in a pro style O because his abilities dictate that he needs the Pistol. He gets praise because, when compared to Croyle and Huard, he stands out at as a competent player.

He was drafted in the 7th round because scouts were very uncertain about how his skills would translate on the pro level. He has clearly shown that he deserved to be drafted much higher. First round? Don't know. but clearly, he has shown enough to warrant at least a second round pick.

And by the way, you keep pointing to this idea that the Chiefs' offense is a gimmick. It's not. It's a legitimate pro offense and it's not nearly the same and a lot more complex than the patty-cake spread offenses they run in college. The only major distinction is that he operates under the shotgun rather than under center. Part of that is that it helps him make his reads better, but another huge part of that is that he's not used to the footwork of dropping back from under center--that's very easy to coach and I imagine it's something he works on all offseason. Also keep in mind that perhaps a major reason he looks uncomfortable under center is because he should be--our offensive line is not good enough to block with the QB under center. Not yet, at least.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 09:27 PM
I see a repost on my post!

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:30 PM
Originally .

Darth, Sims plays for the Bucs.

Well, they said Simms and showed a guy in a Panther rig, so go figure.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 09:30 PM
You don't know that. Like I posted Thigpen will be the starter next year even if we draft a QB in the 1st round. We also have a ton of cap space and low draft picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. So if we get lucky and end up with Stafford we will still be in position acquire more talent in the draft and through free agency. I don't know the plan but armed with a couple more decent draft picks and a few key free agents our O line and team can be much better. Finding a pass rush will be the hardest thing for us to fix IMO but I not 100% sold on the top guys as top five picks.

PhilFree:arrow:

That's a pretty dead-on observation.

For the record, I'm not a rah-rah Thigpen supporter. I just think it's ludicrous that many people on this board are acting like it's a given that he's a born loser because of where he was drafted, nevermind what he's shown on the NFL level. With that in mind, there's no doubt you still have to bring in a strong competitor in the offseason. If Stafford's available, you probably can't pass on him. But other than that, the next best option is probably in the second round and regardless of who they draft, the Chiefs have to give Thigpen a legit chance to win his job and make sure that if he loses its job, it's because they don't see potential in him and not because he wasn't blessed with being labeled a high draft pick guy.

That's all I'm saying. He's proven he belongs in the NFL and that he's clearly, clearly outperforming his draft pick. And he should have the right to be judged without this label floating over his head.

luv
12-08-2008, 09:31 PM
Well, they said Simms and showed a guy in a Panther rig, so go figure.

C'mon, man. Even I knew that.

WilliamTheIrish
12-08-2008, 09:32 PM
He was drafted in the 7th round because scouts were very uncertain about how his skills would translate on the pro level. He has clearly shown that he deserved to be drafted much higher. First round? Don't know. but clearly, he has shown enough to warrant at least a second round pick.

And by the way, you keep pointing to this idea that the Chiefs' offense is a gimmick. It's not. It's a legitimate pro offense and it's not nearly the same and a lot more complex than the patty-cake spread offenses they run in college. The only major distinction is that he operates under the shotgun rather than under center. Part of that is that it helps him make his reads better, but another huge part of that is that he's not used to the footwork of dropping back from under center--that's very easy to coach and I imagine it's something he works on all offseason. Also keep in mind that perhaps a major reason he looks uncomfortable under center is because he should be--our offensive line is not good enough to block with the QB under center. Not yet, at least.

As I said, he was drafted in the 7th because that's where his abilities dictated he be drafted.

It's a gimmick O. Spare me the rest Zilla. He'd be a great Canada QB. Similar to the college game, with wide hashmarks.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on both of these issues.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:34 PM
C'mon, man. Even I knew that.

I have a hard enough time keeping track of the players on OUR roster, much less Tampa Bay's.

Anyway, Carolina is looking pretty massive in this in game.

KcMizzou
12-08-2008, 09:40 PM
I have a hard enough time keeping track of the players on OUR roster, much less Tampa Bay's.

Anyway, Carolina is looking pretty massive in this in game.Nice save... heh.

If you're gonna screw up that badly, (and I have) do it in a game thread... they move so fast most people never notice. :D

DaneMcCloud
12-08-2008, 10:56 PM
Nice save... heh.

If you're gonna screw up that badly, (and I have) do it in a game thread... they move so fast most people never notice. :D

The Sunday chat room is soooo much more fun.

Join in sometime.

DeezNutz
12-08-2008, 11:07 PM
The Sunday chat room is soooo much more fun.

Join in sometime.

People like you hang out there? I'll pass...:D

boogblaster
12-08-2008, 11:13 PM
Thiggy does deserve a shot at starting next year ..

ChiefsCountry
12-09-2008, 12:32 AM
Since 2000 6 superbowl winners did not have first round draft pick quarterbacks starting. just saying.

actually 5. Trent Dilfer was a first rounder, but he wasnt ever close to being an elite QB.

Brady owns half of those.

Mecca
12-09-2008, 12:33 AM
Brady owns half of those.

See what people forget is when you make this non 1st round argument overtime....Joe Montana and Tom Brady account for a huge percentage of the non 1st rounders.

ChiefsCountry
12-09-2008, 12:36 AM
Brady and Montana own 16% of all Super Bowl wins. They also own 38% of all wins that were not 1st round picks. Throw in Roger Stabuach, who would have been a #1 pick if not for Vietnam, thats 50% of all non-1st round pick wins in the Super Bowl.

Mecca
12-09-2008, 12:38 AM
Personally I think Thigpens upside, being nice with it is Jeff Garcia...or maybe he has a big year then comes back to earth like David Garrard both serviceable starters that would be better backups that will almost certainly never win bowls.

ChiefsCountry
12-09-2008, 12:40 AM
Personally I think Thigpens upside, being nice with it is Jeff Garcia...or maybe he has a big year then comes back to earth like David Garrard both serviceable starters that would be better backups that will almost certainly never win bowls.

Pretty much what I think as well.

chiefzilla1501
12-09-2008, 01:20 AM
Personally I think Thigpens upside, being nice with it is Jeff Garcia...or maybe he has a big year then comes back to earth like David Garrard both serviceable starters that would be better backups that will almost certainly never win bowls.

Garrard is also the most sacked QB in the NFL. I don't think you can fairly say he "came down to earth." I think his line is a big reason for that.

I don't think anyone that has seen Garcia would say that the two are similar at all. Thigpen looks a ton more comfortable planting and throwing than Garcia does. Romo and Gannon are the more appropriate comparisons. He actually reminds me a ton of Romo, but with a much better head on his shoulders.

Short Leash Hootie
12-09-2008, 01:37 AM
Garrard is also the most sacked QB in the NFL. I don't think you can fairly say he "came down to earth." I think his line is a big reason for that.

I don't think anyone that has seen Garcia would say that the two are similar at all. Thigpen looks a ton more comfortable planting and throwing than Garcia does. Romo and Gannon are the more appropriate comparisons. He actually reminds me a ton of Romo, but with a much better head on his shoulders.

:shake:

chiefzilla1501
12-09-2008, 06:39 AM
:shake:

Are you gonna deny that one of the reasons Romo has struggled is because he's not focused on the game? This is a guy who took a vacation with his girlfriend before his first ever playoff game.

Pay close attention to the way Romo plays the game. Romo and Thigpen are very similar. Romo might be slightly more accurate and Thigpen slightly faster, but the two are very close in style of play.

Frosty
12-09-2008, 07:43 AM
Chiefs have a better shot statiscally at winning the Super Bowl with Alex Smith than they would Thigpen.

Let's bring in Smith, Joey Harrington, David Carr and Byron Leftwich to battle it out for the starting QB position. Statistically, we almost couldn't lose. :)