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Zouk
12-07-2008, 11:02 PM
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nflnation/0-4-141/Gonzalez--A--disgrace--if-Thigpen-isn-t-QB-in-2009.html


Gonzalez: A 'disgrace' if Thigpen isn't QB in 2009

December 7, 2008 11:14 PM

Posted by ESPN.com's Bill Williamson

DENVER -- Tony Gonzalez is not sure if he will want to return to the Kansas City Chiefs in 2009. But Sunday, he made one thing abundantly clear.

If he does return to Kansas City for a 13th season, it had better be a package deal with Tyler Thigpen. The star tight end emphatically put his support behind the Chiefs' gutsy, young quarterback Sunday after another close call in Denver, where the Broncos moved to the doorstep of the AFC West championship with a 24-17 win over the feisty Chiefs.

In a candid interview, Gonzalez left no doubt about what he thinks the Chiefs' brass needs to do at quarterback in the offseason: Make Thigpen the long-term answer.

"It would be a disgrace if they don't," Gonzalez said. "We've been playing well since he came in."

The quarterback situation has and will be the biggest topic of discussion as the 2-11 Chiefs stumble toward 2009. The Chiefs have many needs -- Gonzalez said he believes the team is foru to five players away from being a legitimate playoff contender -- starting with the front seven on defense. There has been much speculation the Chiefs, who will very likely have a top-five pick in the draft, will pursue a quarterback through the draft, a trade or free agency.

Gonzalez has advice for the team, if they're listening or not.

"You already got your quarterback," Gonzalez said. "You get something else to help us."

With Gonzalez, who owns every significant receiving record in the NFL by a tight end, firmly behind Thigpen, does that mean he wants to return to Kansas City? Back in October Gonzalez asked the team to trade him and he was upset when a trade didn't happen by the deadline. Back then, the 32-year-old Gonzalez said he would evaluate whether he wants to return after the season.

He maintained that stance Sunday.

"I don't know what I will want to do in two months," he said. However, Gonzalez did say he can see himself finishing his career in Kansas City with Thigpen as the quarterback. Thigpen had already left the locker room when Gonzalez made his comments.

"We're close on offense, we're close," Gonzalez said. "I think they are going to get some pieces on defense so the defense can catch up with us, but we're close. Right now, I'm a Kansas City Chief and I know we're close."

Gonzalez did say he feels better about being a Chief than he did in October, "but we're still losing." Gonzalez talked Sunday as he did prior to the trade talk. He said his window is closing and he doesn't have a lot of time remaining in his career. He wants to win now.
He is very happy Kansas City has been competitive in the past several weeks. He said the team is only one or two plays away from winning games. But he expressed the losing "hurts" him.

Still, Gonzalez kept going back to Thigpen. He said the Chiefs became competitive when Thigpen took over Oct. 26 against the New York Jets. Kansas City blew three straight games during a stretch in October and in November, and the Chiefs still are not winning. Yet, Gonzalez did say he can see the Chiefs quickly turning around their fortunes next season.

"I could see this being a playoff team next year," Gonzalez said. "I could see us turning it around."

Whether he will be a part of it is yet to be seen, but it is clear Gonzalez wants Thigpen to be part of it. Thigpen, 24, has thrown for 1,926 yards and 14 touchdowns. Gonzalez said he sees weekly improvement from Thigpen.

The two have become close on and off the field. The future hall of famer has mentored Thigpen and the two, along with other offensive teammates, watch film together on Fridays. It clearly has paid off. Gonzalez had five catches for 73 yards Sunday, including a 13-yard touchdown catch. Gonzalez has 57 of his 78 catches this season in the eight games since the trade deadline. It is clear that he has stayed focused during the tough time and it is clear Thigpen has re-energized him.

"Maybe I like him because he throws to me," Gonzalez joked. "He's a good kid, he's humble. He listens. He's not like a lot of young players today who thinks they are the best. He wants to get to better and he will."

Here are some other elements from Denver's win, where the Broncos cut their magic number in the AFC West to one game. A Denver win or a loss or tie by San Diego in the final three weeks gives the Broncos the title.

Denver's running game takes a hit: Denver rookie running back Peyton Hillis suffered a hamstring injury late in the second quarter and did not return. Hillis has flourished since becoming Denver's lead tailback a month ago. Hillis, a rookie fullback, got the job after three Denver running backs were lost for the season with injuries.

The only healthy Broncos tailback after Hillis was hurt Sunday was Tatum Bell, who signed three weeks ago. Bell did have a key 28-yard run in the second half as the Broncos finished off a win in which they had to score 17 unanswered points.

The Broncos will need Hillis down the stretch to keep balance to the offense. He had 58 yards, including an 18-yard touchdown run, on eight carries before his injury. Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said the injury Hillis suffered often costs a player a month. However the team's trainer said through the PR staff that is premature. Hillis said after the game that he doesn't think the injury is overly serious.

Marshall has a big game: Broncos receiver Brandon Marshall hadn't caught more than six passes in a game for the past six games. However, he broke out big time Sunday, catching 11 passes for 91 yards. He had two touchdowns and he made a huge catch on third down on the final drive as Denver ran out the clock.

Marshall has 83 catches for 1,033 yards. With Denver probably heading for the postseason, Marshall will be a key, especially if Hillis is out for a while. Marshall has been dealing with leg ailments, and quarterback Jay Cutler said his performance Sunday was significant.

"That was big for him," said Cutler, who completed 32 of 40 pass attempts for 286 yards.

Denver shows some consistency: The Broncos have now won four of their past five games and ended a three-game losing streak at home.

While it wasn't an easy win, it was important because the Broncos showed some consistency. Denver has had trouble beating lesser opponents this season while it has played up to its competition. A perfect example was the previous two weeks, when Oakland won 31-10 in Denver and then the Broncos cooled off the Jets, 34-17, on the road last week.

"I think we're clicking at the right time," Denver cornerback Dre' Bly said. "We're fighting our inconsistencies."

BigRedChief
12-07-2008, 11:04 PM
:rolleyes: Jeeezzz Tony G we love ya but comeon....Just because he see's nobody but you on the field doesn't mean he's ready to be a 10 year NFL starter.

Sure-Oz
12-07-2008, 11:05 PM
If we draft a top QB or whatever anyway Tyler should start next season anyway but I'm sure tony loves getting 20 looks a game too hehe. Tyler has been a pleasant suprise this season, he went from looking like he had no business on a football field to being solid in a limited time...

Thig Lyfe
12-07-2008, 11:05 PM
BOOM.

Guys, I think Tony would know better than any of us who is best for him and the offense at QB. This is a huge endorsement that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Pitt Gorilla
12-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Yeah, but Tony can't possibly know as much about team needs as fans.

Cormac
12-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Tony continues to impress.

Cormac
12-07-2008, 11:07 PM
Yeah, but Tony can't possibly know as much about team needs as fans.

:)

dj56dt58
12-07-2008, 11:07 PM
if we can fix the right side of the line we can be very good..Thigpen had all day to throw the ball today..they've got to get better at run blocking as well

stevieray
12-07-2008, 11:07 PM
TnT

Stinger
12-07-2008, 11:07 PM
This ought to be an interesting thread

:popcorn:

ArrowheadHawk
12-07-2008, 11:09 PM
If Tony sais it than I believe it. Get us some D help in the first round. Find a QB in free agency.

KCUnited
12-07-2008, 11:09 PM
Stockholm Syndrome.

chiefzilla1501
12-07-2008, 11:09 PM
If we draft a top QB or whatever anyway Tyler should start next season anyway but I'm sure tony loves getting 20 looks a game too hehe. Tyler has been a pleasant suprise this season, he went from looking like he had no business on a football field to being solid in a limited time...

Huard stared down Gonzalez and didn't throw to anybody on the field but Gonzalez, and he never got the endorsement.

I think much of the reason I like the kid is that he does seem like he's taking this job very seriously. While he still makes some mistakes on the field, I'm continually impressed by his decisions about when to run the ball, when to throw the ball away, when to dump the ball off instead of forcing the ball into a double-covered receiver in the end zone. I'm really impressed with how well he commands the game. But he's going to have to work on his accuracy, as he does have a tendency to miss his receivers on some of those fly routes.

chiefs1111
12-07-2008, 11:11 PM
This ought to be an interesting thread

:popcorn:

Yup.....

cdcox
12-07-2008, 11:12 PM
BOOM.

Guys, I think Tony would know better than any of us who is best for him and the offense at QB. This is a huge endorsement that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Appeal to authority is a classical logical fallacy.

Mr. Flopnuts
12-07-2008, 11:13 PM
BOOM.

Guys, I think Tony would know better than any of us who is best for him and the offense at QB. This is a huge endorsement that shouldn't be taken lightly.

I said in another thread that Thigpen's accuracy is a major concern for me, but I agree with you. If Tony endorses him, whether it's because he gets a lot of balls or not, I trust him more than anyone else here.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:17 PM
Offensive starter doesn't want to have to go through the growing pains of yet another young QB? I'm shocked. Though a HOF player, Tony G. has never shown a selfish side, and certainly not this season...

Tribal Warfare
12-07-2008, 11:17 PM
Tony your awesome, but the kid simply doesn't have what it takes. Everytime he takes a snap under center he looks like a person you just got out of the shitter,light footed with a brown streak in his pants. He just doesn't look comfortable, and with that limitation Thigpen's numbers have dropped.

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:18 PM
If this article were a woman, I'd marry it. Oh, I can hear the blood beginning to boil, and it is MUSIC TO MY EARS!ROFL

Tony, is there any happiness you CAN'T give me?ROFL

This is the icing on my week.ROFL

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/76d0b900.png

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:20 PM
I said in another thread that Thigpen's accuracy is a major concern for me, but I agree with you. If Tony endorses him, whether it's because he gets a lot of balls or not, I trust him more than anyone else here.


GRAND-TRUTH-REPPPPPPPP!!!

Direckshun
12-07-2008, 11:22 PM
Brody Croyle, leaning on crutches against the loveseat, drops a tear down his cheek.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:22 PM
Brody Croyle, leaning on crutches against the loveseat, drops a tear down his cheek.

But, but, it's not fair. I shouldn't lose my job to injury. It's the code.

Thus, Croyle will be the face of the franchise for the next 15 years.

splatbass
12-07-2008, 11:24 PM
Brody Croyle, leaning on crutches against the loveseat, drops a tear down his cheek.

He still has his wife to comfort him.

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:24 PM
"You already got your quarterback," Gonzalez said. "You get something else to help us."

I dub this thread; "Love You Long Time".ROFLROFLROFL

blueballs
12-07-2008, 11:26 PM
Tony G has taken Thigpen under his wing
Tyler losing him may be like LJ without T-Rich
lost

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:28 PM
How many would-be interceptions has Thigpen thrown this season?

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:29 PM
Huard stared down Gonzalez and didn't throw to anybody on the field but Gonzalez, and he never got the endorsement.

I think much of the reason I like the kid is that he does seem like he's taking this job very seriously. While he still makes some mistakes on the field, I'm continually impressed by his decisions about when to run the ball, when to throw the ball away, when to dump the ball off instead of forcing the ball into a double-covered receiver in the end zone. I'm really impressed with how well he commands the game. But he's going to have to work on his accuracy, as he does have a tendency to miss his receivers on some of those fly routes.

Agreed. He has gotten MUCH better in terms of not forcing. He needs to work on that long-ball though.

DaneMcCloud
12-07-2008, 11:29 PM
How many would-be interceptions has Thigpen thrown this season?

Less than Trent Green's real INT numbers in 2001

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:30 PM
Less than Trent Green's real INT numbers in 2001

BOO-YA; Body Slam Achieved.

blueballs
12-07-2008, 11:32 PM
Keeping it close in his first Denver game
is when Thigpen became Tyler
respect is slowly creeping up

Uncle_Ted
12-07-2008, 11:36 PM
How many would-be interceptions has Thigpen thrown this season?

A lot. Almost as many as Favre I suspect. But I still think he's earned a shot to be the starter next year.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:36 PM
Less than Trent Green's real INT numbers in 2001

Less than 47. And your point?

To me, this is the only question that matters: is Thigpen a franchise QB? If yes, move along. If no, then we're still looking for a QB.

To me, he looks serviceable. Could a team win with him? Yes, just like teams have done with a host of other marginal QB's. Sometimes (but not terribly often) these types of players even win SB's.

In sum, Thigpen is like an average looking woman. We should be happy to bang her for now, but we should always be scanning the room for a hotter woman. Wait...

kcchiefsus
12-07-2008, 11:38 PM
How many would-be interceptions has Thigpen thrown this season?

IDK, how many actual interceptions has Jay Cutler thrown this year? Yet nobody would mind having him. And I really do believe Thigpen would have similar touchdown numbers to Cutler if he had been starting all year.

blueballs
12-07-2008, 11:39 PM
If Brodie was playing like Thigpen the same excuses and complaints would be made
I think Brodie would be allowed more on the job training by the fans on this board
because of where he was drafted

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:39 PM
Less than Trent Green's real INT numbers in 2001

But the real point I was trying to make:

In time, these types of "lucky" breaks start to even out. In some ways, I see some parallels between Tyler Thigpen's '08 and, forgive me as I make a cross-sport reference, Brian Bannister's '07. Royals fans, especially the number crunchers, will know exactly what I mean. If you don't, well...I don't give a fuck.

chiefzilla1501
12-07-2008, 11:40 PM
How many would-be interceptions has Thigpen thrown this season?

Probably 2 or 3. Which would still make him well above the 1:1 TD/Int ratio that is usual for a QB in his first season as a starter. Eli Manning threw 20 INTs his second season.

The problem is that Thigpen's mistakes are magnified because with this defense, you have to be perfect or else you lose.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:41 PM
Probably 2 or 3. Which would still make him well above the 1:1 TD/Int ratio that is usual for a QB in his first season as a starter. Eli Manning threw 20 INTs his second season.

The problem is that Thigpen's mistakes are magnified because with this defense, you have to be perfect or else you lose.

He threw two or three today. Good grief. One was reversed via replay.

Last week he perfected the back-foot-rainbow-hope-like-hell-Tony-makes-a-play throw.

stevieray
12-07-2008, 11:42 PM
again, we were competitive with him at the helm..that's the closest we've come to winning there in eight years..he drove them dowm within a yard of tying the game, after a penalty...i'm impressed with his confidence and ability to shake off the negatives..he's going through the growing pains of a young team and is making plays and gaining the trust of those around him.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:43 PM
IDK, how many actual interceptions has Jay Cutler thrown this year? Yet nobody would mind having him. And I really do believe Thigpen would have similar touchdown numbers to Cutler if he had been starting all year.

Do Cutler and Thigpen have the same ceiling?

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:43 PM
Yesss...YESSSS....YESSSSSSSS!!!!

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/Emperor03.jpg

Let the hate FLOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW
Through You...ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

ROYC75
12-07-2008, 11:45 PM
We have other issues at the time since Tyler is doing well. Waters will retire soon, we need OL help on the right side and backups. We need DL help to get a pass rush.

Taking a QB in the 1st rd is not a necessity.

kcchiefsus
12-07-2008, 11:45 PM
Do Cutler and Thigpen have the same ceiling?

That doesn't matter. Cutler makes just as many stupid passes as just about any quarterback in the NFL yet he gets a pass for the most part. Hell, besides the one INT he actually did throw there was the one that hit DJ in the hands but was dropped and there was at least 1 or 2 other close calls.

chiefzilla1501
12-07-2008, 11:48 PM
But the real point I was trying to make:

In time, these types of "lucky" breaks start to even out. In some ways, I see some parallels between Tyler Thigpen's '08 and, forgive me as I make a cross-sport reference, Brian Bannister's '07. Royals fans, especially the number crunchers, will know exactly what I mean. If you don't, well...I don't give a ****.

Pretty distinct difference. The national media knew that Bannister was ready to bust at any point. More importantly, you can't compare football to baseball. There is a long line of baseball players who bust within a half season because there is so much detail that goes into every single decision you make, especially when you pitch. Batters know exactly what the fastball will do, how it will look coming out of your hand, and when you're going to throw it.

That's a lot different from a QB in the NFL. Yes, a QB might give away some tricks if he stares down receiver or has a tendency to favor one receiver over the other in certain situations, but there isn't nearly as much that can be schemed for. In general, the coaches are the ones who make sure the scheme is unpredictable and the players' job is to execute.

Pitchers are much, much easier to adjust for than quarterbacks.

Darth CarlSatan
12-07-2008, 11:51 PM
As DCS hands out rep like Halloween Candy!:evil:

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/76d0b900.png

blueballs
12-07-2008, 11:51 PM
We have other issues at the time since Tyler is doing well. Waters will retire soon, we need OL help on the right side and backups. We need DL help to get a pass rush.

Taking a QB in the 1st rd is not a necessity.

the old Carl way would actual be fine with me this offseason
and old vet castoff that is sturdy if not flashy

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:53 PM
That doesn't matter. Cutler makes just as many stupid passes as just about any quarterback in the NFL yet he gets a pass for the most part. Hell, besides the one INT he actually did throw there was the one that hit DJ in the hands but was dropped and there was at least 1 or 2 other close calls.

Of course it matters. Would you rather have Cutler or Thigpen. Which has more upside?

chiefzilla1501
12-07-2008, 11:53 PM
Do Cutler and Thigpen have the same ceiling?

Cutler has a higher ceiling, but I think that what makes Thigpen most intriguing is his ability to move. It's rare to find a passer that moves as well as he does that is looking to pass first. He leads the NFL in rushing yards from a QB, but I think most of us would all agree that we never get the impression that he runs unless he absolutely has to.

If Thigpen can continue to improve as a passer, that double threat is going to make him really dangerous. While Cutler is a better pure passer, that's an element to his game that he'll never have.

Ultra Peanut
12-07-2008, 11:54 PM
He can say this now, because there's no chance we get Stafford.

Orakpo's coo.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:57 PM
Pretty distinct difference. The national media knew that Bannister was ready to bust at any point. More importantly, you can't compare football to baseball. There is a long line of baseball players who bust within a half season because there is so much detail that goes into every single decision you make, especially when you pitch. Batters know exactly what the fastball will do, how it will look coming out of your hand, and when you're going to throw it.

That's a lot different from a QB in the NFL. Yes, a QB might give away some tricks if he stares down receiver or has a tendency to favor one receiver over the other in certain situations, but there isn't nearly as much that can be schemed for. In general, the coaches are the ones who make sure the scheme is unpredictable and the players' job is to execute.

Pitchers are much, much easier to adjust for than quarterbacks.

Statistically speaking, Bannister had the perfect season. Based on numbers alone, he shouldn't have been as successful as he was. The national media didn't know jack shit.

To say that the adjustments are easier in one sport as compared to the next, this is an impossible argument to prove, and, frankly, is one that I'm not interested in.

Again, my point is that Thigpen's raw numbers are more impressive than his actual play. I expect the latter to decrease significantly over a 16 game season.

The kid has been fun to watch, no doubt. But what he's done wouldn't stop me from taking a shot on a QB whom I believe could have far more upside.

DeezNutz
12-07-2008, 11:59 PM
Cutler has a higher ceiling, but I think that what makes Thigpen most intriguing is his ability to move. It's rare to find a passer that moves as well as he does that is looking to pass first. He leads the NFL in rushing yards from a QB, but I think most of us would all agree that we never get the impression that he runs unless he absolutely has to.

If Thigpen can continue to improve as a passer, that double threat is going to make him really dangerous. While Cutler is a better pure passer, that's an element to his game that he'll never have.

Now, I agree with this. Thigpen's optimal potential might be Gannon. This would be great. I wouldn't spit at this.

I'd still rather have a Manning or a Marino or an Elway or a Favre (not now, obviously) or a...

Silock
12-08-2008, 12:01 AM
Appeal to authority is a classical logical fallacy.

Not necessarily. It's certainly not the end-all, be-all of logical arguments, but there are merits in deferring to experts.

luv
12-08-2008, 12:03 AM
Now, I agree with this. Thigpen's optimal potential might be Gannon. This would be great. I wouldn't spit at this.

I'd still rather have a Manning or a Marino or an Elway or a Favre (not now, obviously) or a...

....Matt Ryan? I'd love to get lucky like that, too. But that's not a likely scenario. Eli Manning is an average QB with good receivers who won a Super Bowl. Actually, I think he's done better since winning the Super Bowl. I would be happy with someone like that as well.

Silock
12-08-2008, 12:04 AM
He threw two or three today. Good grief. One was reversed via replay.

Last week he perfected the back-foot-rainbow-hope-like-hell-Tony-makes-a-play throw.

I think it's unfair to assume that he won't be making improvements in those areas if he keeps getting snaps. He IS a first-year starter. These things happen. What I do know is that this is the best the KC offense has looked since AS was in charge. At least we're moving the ball and actually threatening opposing defenses.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:05 AM
Now, I agree with this. Thigpen's optimal potential might be Gannon. This would be great. I wouldn't spit at this.

I'd still rather have a Manning or a Marino or an Elway or a Favre (not now, obviously) or a...

Again, as mentioned earlier alot of shit can happen from here to the draft, hell Stafford might be their when we pick or he could pull an Elway/Eli Manning and wants to play for KC .Apparently he has connections to the Hunts from what I hear from the die hard Georgia Bulldogs fans on the BB.

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:07 AM
I guess I just don't see what everyone is excited about. He is a serviceable QB when you run an offense that doesn't ask him to do too much. He is accuracy is good at short distances, but he's pretty erratic over 20 yards.

What will he look like when Tony retires?

What is his outstanding attribute that he will build his career on? Arm strength? Accuracy? Tough to bring down? Touch on the deep ball? Pocket presence? Study of the game? Leadership? Most young QBs that develop into franchise guys have something special that you can see from day one. Can anyone tell me what that something is for Thigpen?

Do you envision a time in his career when he trots onto the field down by 3 with 3 minutes left in the game and the other team just dreads what they know is to follow? I don't get that vibe at all.

I hope he goes to the Hall of Fame. But I just don't see the potential for that.

Stinger
12-08-2008, 12:08 AM
Of course it matters. Would you rather have Cutler or Thigpen. Which has more upside?

Are we talking Culter after his first few starts in 2006 or the Cutler now. Big difference IMO.

Cutler 2006

Games -- Att -- Comp -- % -- Yards -- TDs -- Int -- QB Rating

5 -- 137 -- 81 -- 59.1 -- 1,001 -- 9 -- 6 -- 88.5

Tyler Thigpen

8 -- 315 -- 172 -- 54.6 -- 1,926 -- 14 -- 8 -- 77.3

DeezNutz
12-08-2008, 12:10 AM
I guess I just don't see what everyone is excited about. He is a serviceable QB when you run an offense that doesn't ask him to do too much. He is accuracy is good at short distances, but he's pretty erratic over 20 yards.

What will he look like when Tony retires?

What is his outstanding attribute that he will build his career on? Arm strength? Accuracy? Tough to bring down? Touch on the deep ball? Pocket presence? Study of the game? Leadership? Most young QBs that develop into franchise guys have something special that you can see from day one. Can anyone tell me what that something is for Thigpen?

Do you envision a time in his career when he trots onto the field down by 3 with 3 minutes left in the game and the other team just dreads what they know is to follow? I don't get that vibe at all.

I hope he goes to the Hall of Fame. But I just don't see the potential for that.

The one outstanding attribute to many posters is that he's currently a Chief, and we're circling the wagons, pilgrim.

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:12 AM
Thigpen's optimal potential might be Gannon. This would be great. I wouldn't spit at this.



That would suck. I would spit on that.

DeezNutz
12-08-2008, 12:13 AM
Are we talking Culter after his first few starts in 2006 or the Cutler now. Big difference IMO.

Cutler 2006

Games -- Att -- Comp -- % -- Yards -- TDs -- Int -- QB Rating

5 -- 137 -- 81 -- 59.1 -- 1,001 -- 9 -- 6 -- 88.5

Tyler Thigpen

8 -- 315 -- 172 -- 54.6 -- 1,926 -- 14 -- 8 -- 77.3

I'll defer to cdcox's nicely articulated post to answer this. I'd be shocked if anyone would have the slightest inkling to prefer Thigpen to Cutler, at any stage in their development.

As others have stated, I'd love to be wrong. Hope I am, in fact.

DeezNutz
12-08-2008, 12:14 AM
That would suck. I would spit on that.

You don't like league MVP's? Though not necessarily all HOF's, you believe these players suck the manhood?

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 12:16 AM
I guess I just don't see what everyone is excited about. He is a serviceable QB when you run an offense that doesn't ask him to do too much. He is accuracy is good at short distances, but he's pretty erratic over 20 yards.

What will he look like when Tony retires?

What is his outstanding attribute that he will build his career on? Arm strength? Accuracy? Tough to bring down? Touch on the deep ball? Pocket presence? Study of the game? Leadership? Most young QBs that develop into franchise guys have something special that you can see from day one. Can anyone tell me what that something is for Thigpen?

Do you envision a time in his career when he trots onto the field down by 3 with 3 minutes left in the game and the other team just dreads what they know is to follow? I don't get that vibe at all.

I hope he goes to the Hall of Fame. But I just don't see the potential for that.

Did Denver fans feel that way about Elway in his first two years?

No.
Not...Even...Close. They wanted his ass GONE. I understand the pull of intangibles probably better than anyone else here, but it is MUCH too early to start pulling out the 'Magic 8-Ball' on Thigpen.
Every week, he takes a few more steps. Sometimes they're big and noticeable, sometimes they're not.
But you have to admit; the guy's learning curve is OFF THE CHARTS!

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 12:17 AM
Being an ex-baseball player and a baseball nut, I can say with full certainty that baseball is a lot harder to consistently succeed than football. Baseball is an exact science. Every single hitter has a sweet spot and a cold zone. Every single pitcher has a certain arsenal of pitches that move a certain way--once in a great while, you have a pitcher like Greg Maddux who can make the ball move however he wants to. In baseball, you scheme the talent and how you exploit it.

In football, you mostly scheme the scheme. It's less about scheming Tyler Thigpen as much as it is scheming Chan Gailey. Sure, QBs have different tendencies--Thigpen likes to move around the pocket more than a Peyton Manning and you don't have to provide nearly as much deep help as you would for, say, a Carson Palmer--but for the most part, Thigpen's delivery of the actual football from his hand to the receiver is in the same exact straight line as a throw from Matt Hasselback to his receiver. In many cases, the quarterback's decision is almost exactly dictated by the offensive coordinator. And unlike baseball, if you have an immobile quarterback like Carson Palmer, you can surround him with outstanding offensive lineman to limit that weakness. In baseball, you are completely on your own. You are either capable of making good pitches on your own, or you're not.

Sorry to get into that diversion. But I fundamentally disagree that comparing Thigpen to Bannister has any merit.





Statistically speaking, Bannister had the perfect season. Based on numbers alone, he shouldn't have been as successful as he was. The national media didn't know jack shit.

To say that the adjustments are easier in one sport as compared to the next, this is an impossible argument to prove, and, frankly, is one that I'm not interested in.

Again, my point is that Thigpen's raw numbers are more impressive than his actual play. I expect the latter to decrease significantly over a 16 game season.

The kid has been fun to watch, no doubt. But what he's done wouldn't stop me from taking a shot on a QB whom I believe could have far more upside.

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:17 AM
You don't like league MVP's? Though not necessarily all HOF's, you believe these players suck the manhood?

Gannon in Oakland was a mirage. He ran an offense ideally suited for him with two HOF receivers. He got to the Super Bowl and turned out to be who we thought he was.

I want a real franchise QB.

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:19 AM
Did Denver fans feel that way about Elway in his first two years?

No.
Not...Even...Close. They wanted his ass GONE. I understand the pull of intangibles probably better than anyone else here, but it is MUCH too early to start pulling out the 'Magic 8-Ball' on Thigpen.
Every week, he takes a few more steps. Sometimes they're big and noticeable, sometimes they're not.
But you have to admit; the guy's learning curve is OFF THE CHARTS!

Just stop. Elway sucked his first year. But you could tell there was magic in the way he sucked. He was going to be great from day 1. And I hated that SOB every step of the way.

Micjones
12-08-2008, 12:19 AM
If you could change the name on the back of #4's jersey to Croyle he'd be the overwhelming favorite to be the starting QB next season.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:21 AM
Just stop. Elway sucked his first year. But you could tell there was magic in the way he sucked. He was going to be great from day 1. And I hated that SOB every step of the way.

Him and Al Davis were the two most hated motherfuckers in sports when I was growing up as a Chiefs fan.

DeezNutz
12-08-2008, 12:21 AM
Gannon in Oakland was a mirage. He ran an offense ideally suited for him with two HOF receivers. He got to the Super Bowl and turned out to be who we thought he was.

I want a real franchise QB.

Yes, he was a system QB, which describes almost everyone not named P. Manning or Brady at the current moment.

I want someone who is this talented, too, but I'd settle for a very talented system guy b/c we could win with this. As noted, however, I'd still be scanning the room for bigger breasts and a smaller waist.

Stinger
12-08-2008, 12:22 AM
I want a real franchise QB.

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

So would 25-28 teams out of the 32 in the NFL.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 12:22 AM
Side Note:
History Channel has a show called 'History Rocks' where the combine History with Rock and Roll, and a famous Rock Host. So far, it's been VERY cool.

DeezNutz
12-08-2008, 12:24 AM
Being an ex-baseball player and a baseball nut, I can say with full certainty that baseball is a lot harder to consistently succeed than football. Baseball is an exact science. Every single hitter has a sweet spot and a cold zone. Every single pitcher has a certain arsenal of pitches that move a certain way--once in a great while, you have a pitcher like Greg Maddux who can make the ball move however he wants to. In baseball, you scheme the talent and how you exploit it.

In football, you mostly scheme the scheme. It's less about scheming Tyler Thigpen as much as it is scheming Chan Gailey. Sure, QBs have different tendencies--Thigpen likes to move around the pocket more than a Peyton Manning and you don't have to provide nearly as much deep help as you would for, say, a Carson Palmer--but for the most part, Thigpen's delivery of the actual football from his hand to the receiver is in the same exact straight line as a throw from Matt Hasselback to his receiver. In many cases, the quarterback's decision is almost exactly dictated by the offensive coordinator. And unlike baseball, if you have an immobile quarterback like Carson Palmer, you can surround him with outstanding offensive lineman to limit that weakness. In baseball, you are completely on your own. You are either capable of making good pitches on your own, or you're not.

Sorry to get into that diversion. But I fundamentally disagree that comparing Thigpen to Bannister has any merit.

Dude, I'm speaking simply about inflated stat lines. You're taking this much too far. But, for grins, I've bolded where I believe your argument is seriously flawed.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:25 AM
Yes, he was a system QB, which describes almost everyone not named P. Manning or Brady at the current moment.

I want someone who is this talented, too, but I'd settle for a very talented system guy b/c we could win with this. As noted however, I'd still be scanning the room for bigger breasts and a smaller waist.

The thing about Thigpen is he's kind of like Grbac in the way he's solid, but he'll never quite get you over the hump to get in the playoffs.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 12:26 AM
Just stop. Elway sucked his first year. But you could tell there was magic in the way he sucked. He was going to be great from day 1. And I hated that SOB every step of the way.

ROFL

I want that chiseled on his bust at the HOF.

I'm not even gonna' debate that because it's the best laugh I've had all night.ROFL

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:27 AM
The thing about Thigpen is he's kind of like Grbac in the way he's solid, but he'll never quite get you over the hump to get in the playoffs.

I think it is funny that all the things that go into wins and losses get lumped together like above...

Silock
12-08-2008, 12:27 AM
The thing about Thigpen is he's kind of like Grbac in the way he's solid, but he'll never quite get you over the hump to get in the playoffs.

I'm honestly curious how you can come to that conclusion after a handful of games.

JOhn
12-08-2008, 12:28 AM
The thing about Thigpen is he's kind of like Grbac in the way he's solid, but he'll never quite get you over the hump to get in the playoffs.

:spock:

You can tell all that by the few games he has played so far in the NFL? :eek:

You should keep your phone lines clear, I'm positive with that knowledge that at the NFL will be ringing your phone off the hook soon.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 12:28 AM
The thing about Thigpen is he's kind of like Grbac in the way he's solid, but he'll never quite get you over the hump to get in the playoffs.

The phone number of your weed-dealer. Now.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:29 AM
This is one of those threads where you can really see how "message board sports fans" are really in their own worlds.

This team with better protection and run blocking could do just fine with Thigpen as QB.

Silock
12-08-2008, 12:30 AM
This is one of those threads where you can really see how "message board sports fans" are really in their own worlds.

This team with better protection and run blocking could do just fine with Thigpen as QB.

Exactly. I don't think anyone is debating that he's the next Elway. I think we're all saying that he doesn't have to be. I don't give a fuck if he's a system QB if that system works. And so far, it's working. If we had any semblance of a defense, we'd be a pretty dangerous team.

JOhn
12-08-2008, 12:31 AM
This is one of those threads where you can really see how "message board sports fans" are really in their own worlds.

This team with better protection and run blocking could do just fine with Thigpen as QB.

Amen.

Today was the first game I got to see him play 4 qtrs, and I was very pleased with what I saw. Does he look like a Hall of Fame QB? No, but there is nothing to say he couldn't be a SOLID NFL Qb, in the future. And right now, he looks pretty damn good for a rookie.

luv
12-08-2008, 12:31 AM
Exactly. I don't think anyone is debating that he's the next Elway. I think we're all saying that he doesn't have to be. I don't give a fuck if he's a system QB if that system works. And so far, it's working. If we had any semblance of a defense, we'd be a pretty dangerous team.

Paging a pass rusher.....

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:33 AM
Exactly. I don't think anyone is debating that he's the next Elway. I think we're all saying that he doesn't have to be. I don't give a **** if he's a system QB if that system works. And so far, it's working. If we had any semblance of a defense, we'd be a pretty dangerous team.

The guy hasn't even had an offseason\training camp working in the offense he is doing a good job of running...

I don't think he has reached his full potential. Not even near it.

Message board sports fan experts never give any thought to the idea of one player being able to improve from one year to the next.

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:34 AM
But you have to admit; the guy's learning curve is OFF THE CHARTS!

I wish his passer ratings showed some evidence of that:

Week 8: 140
Week 9: 89.4
Week 10: 108.4
Week 11: 76.1
Week 12: 85.4
Week 13:70.6
Week 14: 81.2

Does he suck? No. But let's be realistic. No need for all caps, exclamation points, and statements about off the charts.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:36 AM
I wish his passer ratings showed some evidence of that:

Week 8: 140
Week 9: 89.4
Week 10: 108.4
Week 11: 76.1
Week 12: 85.4
Week 13:70.6
Week 14: 81.2

Does he suck? No. But let's be realistic. No need for all caps, exclamation points, and statements about off the charts.

Passer rating stats and half a season under an offense that was pulled out of hat.

Well folks lets pack it up and turn off the lights...this will never work after seeing those QB ratings.

Zouk
12-08-2008, 12:36 AM
I hope he goes to the Hall of Fame. But I just don't see the potential for that.

There are about 3 great QBs right now (Manning, Manning, and Brady), and about 3 or 4 more in the next tier (Cutler, Brees, Roethlisberger, maybe Ryan soon, Favre probably dropping off).

There are still 25 other teams. Of the rest, some have QBs you can win playoff games with, and most don't. Thigpen shows signs of potentially being one of the ones you can win with. That's enough to get Tony and I excited.

More than half of the top 7 QBs were taken in the top half of the 1st round. Some think Stafford will be an elite guy. I really don't think he will - but I'm willing to accept the argument that getting an elite QB is a big enough payoff that it's worth it to gamble and take him. But what if he's not there when we pick? Then what? Do you see another path of the Chiefs getting an elite Hall of Fame QB this offseason? If so, please let us know.

I think amongst the realistic options building on what's been started with Thigpen is the best choice at this point.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:37 AM
:spock:

You can tell all that by the few games he has played so far in the NFL? :eek:

You should keep your phone lines clear, I'm positive with that knowledge that at the NFL will be ringing your phone off the hook soon.

Look at the kid's limitations the offense stops in the redzone because he can't run the offense under center and utilize LJ's abilities.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:37 AM
Do QB ratings take inconsistent running games and shoddy protection into account?

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:37 AM
Look at the kid's limitations the offense stops in the redzone because he can't run the offense under center and utilize LJ's abilities.

LJ's abilities to what? Get 3.3 per?

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:38 AM
I think it is funny that all the things that go into wins and losses get lumped together like above...



It's a false sense of security for some or " he's good enough" for others on the BB will be ringing his praise.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:39 AM
It's a false sense of security for some or " he's good enough" for others on the BB will be ringing his praise.

What?

luv
12-08-2008, 12:39 AM
Look at the kid's limitations the offense stops in the redzone because he can't run the offense under center and utilize LJ's abilities.

Utilizing LJ on every short down at the goal line would be pretty predictable. You have more faith in LJ than I do.

Sure-Oz
12-08-2008, 12:40 AM
Can thiggy be the next Romo?

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:40 AM
LJ's abilities to what? Get 3.3 per?

To pound the ball in the redzone with Kolby Smith or who ever the RB is.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:41 AM
To pound the ball in the redzone with Kolby Smith or who ever the RB is.

You watching the same team I am?

They can't pound the ball for shit.

TrickyNicky
12-08-2008, 12:41 AM
I like that Thigpen gave us a chance to be competitive, but honestly, he can't go under-center. Watch any pass play that has a three or five step drop. All of his passes sail on him. I don't know what it is about the shotgun that makes him more accurate, but until he can go under center, we need to keep looking. Even if he is our long-term solution, we should go ahead and get a QB to develop. If this disastrous year taught us anything, its that we shouldn't take a QB's health for granted.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:41 AM
Utilizing LJ on every short down at the goal line would be pretty predictable. You have more faith in LJ than I do.

Then that's when play action come into effect.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 12:41 AM
Thigpen is what we had in the 90s. Good enough to get you 10 wins and lose in the first round. If that is what you guys want, then you fucking deserve it.

luv
12-08-2008, 12:42 AM
Thigpen is what we had in the 90s. Good enough to get you 10 wins and lose in the first round. If that is what you guys want, then you fucking deserve it.

And if we don't get the god that is Stafford, what do you suggest?

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:42 AM
Then that's when play action come into effect.

Play action? Yea, I can see all of those defenders flowing to the ball to make sure our 35 yard girl beating no blocking RB wasn't going to hurt them.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:43 AM
Thigpen is what we had in the 90s. Good enough to get you 10 wins and lose in the first round. If that is what you guys want, then you ****ing deserve it.

So everyone really does believe our playoff losses were due to QBs??

When did everyone have this realization?

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:44 AM
Trent Green.

Playoff losses and bad teams are results of QBs.

I am going to go ahead and start blaming Trent Green for more stuff.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:45 AM
Hell if we want to blame losses on ONE single thing. I can play that game.

A kicker and instant replay wins us two playoff games we lost in Arrowhead.

Stinger
12-08-2008, 12:45 AM
And if we don't get the god that is Stafford, what do you suggest?

Bitch and complain on a message board ....... Damnit Carl !!!!!!!!!!! :cuss:

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:46 AM
Play action? Yea, I can see all of those defenders flowing to the ball to make sure our 35 yard girl beating no blocking RB wasn't going to hurt them.



Look at general redzone offenses you got to run the ball to get there, and to balance that the QB has to make the opposition to believe he can pass out traditional formation or you'll get more of the same. Nothing accomplished but maybe a field goal.

TrebMaxx
12-08-2008, 12:46 AM
I have enough respect for Tony G. to say that if he recognizes talent, I will not argue. Thig is still lacking exeperience. I am willing to give him some time. I feel one hell of a lot better with Thig at QB than I ever did with Brodie. My 2 cents.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 12:46 AM
So everyone really does believe our playoff losses were due to QBs??

When did everyone have this realization?

Well we only won when we had Montana. Thats a pretty good answer right there. The only quarterbacks the Chiefs beat were Marinovich, Neil O'Donnell and Warren Moon. The quarterbacks the Chiefs lost to were Dan Marino twice, Jim Kelly twice, John Elway, and Humphries and Harbaugh. To win the Super Bowl you got to have the quarterback, its pretty much black and white with very very very very rare expecations.

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:47 AM
Do QB ratings take inconsistent running games and shoddy protection into account?

No, and it doesn't consider the defense we played this week either.

If the his learning curve is "OFF THE CHART!" I'd sure hope we could see evidence of it in that statistic despite it's limitations. I'd be willing to accept another measurement of an "OFF THE CHART!" learning curve.

That's all.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:47 AM
Look at general redzone offenses you got to run the ball to get there, and to balance that the QB has to make opposition to believe he can pass out traditional formation or you'll get more of the same. Nothing accomplished but mayb a field goal.
And what I am saying is we can't run the ball for shit.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:47 AM
No, and it doesn't consider the defense we played this week either.



Ah,

Thanks.

tk13
12-08-2008, 12:48 AM
I don't know if the guy is really any more than a backup, but considering how far he's come since the Atlanta game, it's also a bit ridiculous to say he couldn't improve certain facets of his game. He was basically thrown in as an afterthought and ran with it without having a training camp, or any real practice to do what he's done.

He could just be another Jeff Garcia, or he could be a QB that will lead a revolutionary wave of spread offenses in the NFL. I don't know. I'm glad I don't have to be the one to make that decision.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 12:48 AM
Len Dawson and Joe Montana own every single Chiefs playoff win in history expect for one which was Steve DeBerg who beat Todd Marinovich. Example #2.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 12:48 AM
And what I am saying is we can't run the ball for shit.

and I'm saying you can't run the spread in the redzone because it doesn't utilize the run properly and then offense gets shutdown.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:50 AM
Len Dawson and Joe Montana own every single Chiefs playoff win in history expect for one which was Steve DeBerg who beat Todd Marinovich. Example #2.

Where did Trent Green go so wrong?

cdcox
12-08-2008, 12:50 AM
|Zach| - I'm more of the mindset of

team good enough to go to the playoffs + franchise QB = much better chance to win the SB

I don't want to go through the pain of a rebuild to do it half assed.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 12:50 AM
Tony also says every year this is the best Chiefs team he's ever been on. He's prone to hyperbole, and this is no different.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 12:51 AM
Where did Trent Green go so wrong?

Peyton Manning was a hell lot better. Example #3.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 12:51 AM
Peyton Manning was a hell lot better. Example #3.

You didn't answer my question.

Where did Trent Green go wrong? He was the QB of those Chiefs' teams.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 12:52 AM
Hell if we want to blame losses on ONE single thing. I can play that game.

A kicker and instant replay wins us two playoff games we lost in Arrowhead.

What about the Bonehead behind center who threw three picks in the first loss, and the numbskull who didn't know how much time we had left in the second one?

tk13
12-08-2008, 12:53 AM
Peyton Manning was a hell lot better. Example #3.
I don't know about that. Peyton just had the ball last.

Stinger
12-08-2008, 12:54 AM
Peyton Manning was a hell lot better. Example #3.

So Priest's fumble nor that the fact that our D could stop anyone was Green's fault???? :spock:

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 12:56 AM
So Priest's fumble nor that the fact that our D could stop anyone was Green's fault???? :spock:

Could we please stop with the reductio ad absurdum bullshit. It's obvious that QB play doesn't account for 100% of the losses and victories in the playoffs, but it is still the biggest differentiator between wins and losses in the playoffs than any other single factor.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 12:56 AM
So Priest's fumble nor that the fact that our D could stop anyone was Green's fault???? :spock:

Manning was unstoppable that day, he owned our defense. He knew it inside and outside.

tk13
12-08-2008, 12:57 AM
I mean, that was a tremendous game by Manning, he was a surgeon. But there literally wasn't much more Green could've done in that game. If Manning's RB was the one that fumbled, his kicker the one that missed, etc... we would've won that game. That game was such a freak occurance it's really hard to make too much out of it.

Well, other than if you have a defense that literally can't force a punt you're not going to win, but we knew that already.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 01:02 AM
Just stop. Elway sucked his first year. But you could tell there was magic in the way he sucked. He was going to be great from day 1. And I hated that SOB every step of the way.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/Elway-3.png

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 01:02 AM
Could we please stop with the reductio ad absurdum bullshit. It's obvious that QB play doesn't account for 100% of the losses and victories in the playoffs, but it is still the biggest differentiator between wins and losses in the playoffs than any other single factor.

And I believe the QB playing right now is good enough to get yards and points.

People here want to throw him off the board going off information from suspect (not terrible though) protection, inconsistent (at best) running game running in offense that was totally implemented on the fly. Did I mention a defense that totally sucks?

There is a lot of room for improvement. I am a big believer in the off season and training camp.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 01:07 AM
Here is all the quarterbacks to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs:
Daryle Lamonica
Bob Griese
Pat Ryan
Dan Marino
Jim Kelly
Stan Humphries
Jim Kelly
Dan Marino
Jim Harbaugh
[B]John Elway
Peyton Manning
Peyton Manning

Bold - Hall of Famer/Franchise Quarterback
Italtic - Will be a Hall of Famer

PS I am suprised Lamonica isnt, he is #2 all time in winning percentage.

JOhn
12-08-2008, 01:09 AM
I don't know if the guy is really any more than a backup, but considering how far he's come since the Atlanta game, it's also a bit ridiculous to say he couldn't improve certain facets of his game. He was basically thrown in as an afterthought and ran with it without having a training camp, or any real practice to do what he's done.

He could just be another Jeff Garcia, or he could be a QB that will lead a revolutionary wave of spread offenses in the NFL. I don't know. I'm glad I don't have to be the one to make that decision.

:clap:

To see this kid with a part of season under him & full off season program, then I'll be ready to pass judgement on him. Yea under center he's not good enough yet. But it he can improve and given a training camp to get that done, I bet he will.

Point is there is really no way any of us can make that kind of judgement on him, good or bad. And considering what we have had in the recent pass, I'm willing to give him a shot at it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 01:12 AM
Thigpen's ceiling is probably a top 20 quarterback. He's a great backup. I don't think you can win a Super Bowl with him. That doesn't mean that we should cut him, but if you don't have a truly elite QB, you should always be looking for one. The fact of the matter is that he and the offense have regressed in every game since Tampa.

27 points in the Tampa game.
19 in the SD game (really 21 if not for the snap fuck up)
20 in NO game
31 in the Buffalo game (24 with Tyler at the helm)
13 in the Oakland game
10 in the Denver game

With the exception of the one Buffalo game, it's been a steady trend downward. People need to stop conflating not a franchise QB with not worth a roster spot. That's not what ChiefsCountry is saying at all.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 01:29 AM
The regression probably has something to do with the Chiefs running a gimmick offense...

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 01:40 AM
So you want Thiggy as our quarterback.

How about these facts:
57% of the Super Bowls have been won by first round quarterbacks.
(Out of those quarterbacks only 3 were not top 10 picks)
40% of the Super Bowls won by top 5 picks.
21% have been won by 1st round quarterbacks that wasnt their original team (Dawson, Plunkett (2), Williams, Young, Dilfer)
16% of the Super Bowls were won by Montana and Brady
4% were Roger Staubuach's wins who would have went in the first if he wasnt going to Vietnam
14% were won by a 9th or lower (counting Warner who was Undrafted) and 4 of those wins were by Bart Starr & Roger Staubauch.
4% were won by second round quarterbacks
4% 3rd and 6th rounds picks that were not Montana or Brady
0% of the Super Bowls were won by a 7th round pick

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 01:42 AM
Thigpen's ceiling is probably a top 20 quarterback. He's a great backup. I don't think you can win a Super Bowl with him. That doesn't mean that we should cut him, but if you don't have a truly elite QB, you should always be looking for one. The fact of the matter is that he and the offense have regressed in every game since Tampa.

27 points in the Tampa game.
19 in the SD game (really 21 if not for the snap fuck up)
20 in NO game
31 in the Buffalo game (24 with Tyler at the helm)
13 in the Oakland game
10 in the Denver game

With the exception of the one Buffalo game, it's been a steady trend downward. People need to stop conflating not a franchise QB with not worth a roster spot. That's not what ChiefsCountry is saying at all.

Alright. You make a convincing case, so here's where I shall Officially Stand:

If at the end of this season, no sweeping personnel changes are made in the Department of Defense; we throw all chips out and down, and grab the best QB we can right off the top.

BUT! If Gun and Cronies get the ass-boot, and a worthy replacement comes in; it's time to shore up the defense and get rid of the trash.
THAT...becomes top priority.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 01:46 AM
Listen I dont hate Thigpen, I think we got a nice backup at worst. He is just in the same mold that we have been trotting out there for years and statiscally he wont win the Super Bowl for us, which is the bottom line.

DaneMcCloud
12-08-2008, 01:52 AM
Thigpen's ceiling is probably a top 20 quarterback. He's a great backup. I don't think you can win a Super Bowl with him. That doesn't mean that we should cut him, but if you don't have a truly elite QB, you should always be looking for one. The fact of the matter is that he and the offense have regressed in every game since Tampa.

27 points in the Tampa game.
19 in the SD game (really 21 if not for the snap fuck up)
20 in NO game
31 in the Buffalo game (24 with Tyler at the helm)
13 in the Oakland game
10 in the Denver game

With the exception of the one Buffalo game, it's been a steady trend downward. People need to stop conflating not a franchise QB with not worth a roster spot. That's not what ChiefsCountry is saying at all.

4 of the 6 were on the road. If the defense were worth jack-fucking-shit, the Jets, Tampa Bay and San Diego games would have been a W. And who knows what would have happened today.

Injuries have hurt the Chiefs offense, not the fact that teams have "figured them out". Bradley's arrival and subsequent injuries have killed the offense. Shuttling in Wade Smith, Herb Taylor and the loss of Jones have seriously affected continuity. Are Smith, Jones and SacIntosh worth a shit? No. But, continuity is a factor.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 01:54 AM
Thigpen had time to throw the ball today and didn't perform well....it just looks like a guy coming back to earth as film is getting out there.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Listen I dont hate Thigpen, I think we got a nice backup at worst. He is just in the same mold that we have been trotting out there for years and statiscally he wont win the Super Bowl for us, which is the bottom line.

You may get your wish. The "falling off" of Georgia in the grand scheme of things could open the door to acquisition. And if Tebow hype grows even higher with a Florida win, that surely couldn't hurt.

If nothing else, rivalry and competition at the QB spot never hurts.

DaneMcCloud
12-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Thigpen had time to throw the ball today and didn't perform well....it just looks like a guy coming back to earth as film is getting out there.

Or a guy with his starting WR out, a RB (Charles) who can't stay on the field and a defense that can't hold teams when it counts. All on the road.

Mecca, why don't you join us in the Game Chat on Sundays?

Zouk
12-08-2008, 02:02 AM
Getting an elite QB is not some novel idea - everyone wants one. The difficulty is in the specifics of how you actually get one. I don't think there's an offseason in the Herm era where we could have realistically got a franchise QB. It's not like we picked Brodie Croyle over Peyton, Eli, or Big Ben. We could have moved up to get Brady Quinn in 2007 for a reasonable price but I don't really see any reason at this point to believe he'll be better than Thigpen. Time will tell, but I'm not a fan. And I definitely don't remember many people (or any people, actually) advocating trading both of our #1s plus additional picks to move up from 5 to get Ryan last year.

BigMeatballDave
12-08-2008, 02:15 AM
Thigpen had time to throw the ball today and didn't perform well....it just looks like a guy coming back to earth as film is getting out there.Jesus, find a new fucking team, Debbie Downer. :shake:

Mecca
12-08-2008, 02:22 AM
Jesus, find a new fucking team, Debbie Downer. :shake:

Um yes 2-11 lets be fucking happy!

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 02:37 AM
Listen I dont hate Thigpen, I think we got a nice backup at worst. He is just in the same mold that we have been trotting out there for years and statiscally he wont win the Super Bowl for us, which is the bottom line.

While I don't disagree, my contention is that if you can't get Stafford, who do you get? I don't think Bradford belongs in the spot where the Chiefs will likely be picking.

I don't have a problem using an early second rounder on a QB. And I agree they at least need to bring in some strong competition. I'm just not convinced that this is a season where the options are that great for the Chiefs based on their draft position.

BigMeatballDave
12-08-2008, 02:38 AM
This is one of those threads where you can really see how "message board sports fans" are really in their own worlds.

This team with better protection and run blocking could do just fine with Thigpen as QB.This

BigMeatballDave
12-08-2008, 02:40 AM
Message board sports fan experts LMAO There is a Budweiser "Real Men of Genius" ad here somewhere.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 02:42 AM
"fine" most of us don't want to just be fine.....the 90s Chiefs were fine, the Titans are fine...I don't want to be the playoff loser..

Build your team that way and you become Jacksonville...notice how quickly they fell off.

Chris Meck
12-08-2008, 02:54 AM
I tell you what.

you put any rookie, ANYBODY, I don't care who, Stafford, Bradford, whoever, you're going to regress, and you're going to watch them be inaccurate and throw some picks and make some dumb plays.

That's what young QB's do.

Now, several weeks ago, before Thigpen started playing well, I was all about biting the bullet for a 1st round QB. Now I'm not. Why? Because we have at the very least a serviceable QB. We have great needs in other places that no 1st round QB will help. I think Matt Ryan has people all excited-you need to realize how rare that is, and that many, many NFL scouts didn't think he'd do what he's done.

And nobody on earth thought Tom Brady would ever amount to squat.

Tyler has earned the job. Do you still scan the horizon for QB talent? Yep. You bet. Do you take them with a high 1st? hell no. Not unless you MUST, value-wise. Not when you set a record for fewest sacks in a season, cannot block anyone on the right side of your offensive line, and are playing guys who were sacking groceries two weeks ago at LB.

Sorry. A 1st round QB is not going to change ANY of that, and will actually help PROLONG all of that for another year. Get some DE's, some LB's, an OG, and RT. These positions must be filled with better talent or we will not win even if we clone John Elway.

We've got some good young talent at the 'skill positions' here. Let's get the line of scrimmage taken care of and we'll be a contender. You can win with Thigpen. that's what you need to start with.

Just sayin'.

Tribal Warfare
12-08-2008, 02:57 AM
"fine" most of us don't want to just be fine.....the 90s Chiefs were fine, the Titans are fine...I don't want to be the playoff loser..

Build your team that way and you become Jacksonville...notice how quickly they fell off.



KC fans love average QBs it gives them an euphoric boner if Chiefs go to 9-7 next year. It gives raw ecstasy beyond belief

Mecca
12-08-2008, 02:59 AM
I tell you what.

you put any rookie, ANYBODY, I don't care who, Stafford, Bradford, whoever, you're going to regress, and you're going to watch them be inaccurate and throw some picks and make some dumb plays.

That's what young QB's do.

Now, several weeks ago, before Thigpen started playing well, I was all about biting the bullet for a 1st round QB. Now I'm not. Why? Because we have at the very least a serviceable QB. We have great needs in other places that no 1st round QB will help. I think Matt Ryan has people all excited-you need to realize how rare that is, and that many, many NFL scouts didn't think he'd do what he's done.

And nobody on earth thought Tom Brady would ever amount to squat.

Tyler has earned the job. Do you still scan the horizon for QB talent? Yep. You bet. Do you take them with a high 1st? hell no. Not unless you MUST, value-wise. Not when you set a record for fewest sacks in a season, cannot block anyone on the right side of your offensive line, and are playing guys who were sacking groceries two weeks ago at LB.

Sorry. A 1st round QB is not going to change ANY of that, and will actually help PROLONG all of that for another year. Get some DE's, some LB's, an OG, and RT. These positions must be filled with better talent or we will not win even if we clone John Elway.

We've got some good young talent at the 'skill positions' here. Let's get the line of scrimmage taken care of and we'll be a contender. You can win with Thigpen. that's what you need to start with.

Just sayin'.

You do understand this isn't about next year right? This team isn't winning more than 5 games next year regardless of who they pick...

Only the Chiefs could be this bad and basically have no shot at the 1st pick, but not only that have a portion of the fan base thinking alot of these guys are fine...

This team has alot more problems than it's pass rush and the right side of it's OL.

|Zach|
12-08-2008, 03:05 AM
KC fans love average QBs it gives them an euphoric boner if Chiefs go to 9-7 next year. It gives raw ecstasy beyond belief

Message board sports fans love being able to say anything...throwing all shit to the wall because it doesn't matter when they are wrong.

Lets go out and get Jarret.

Silock
12-08-2008, 03:05 AM
You do understand this isn't about next year right? This team isn't winning more than 5 games next year regardless of who they pick...

Only the Chiefs could be this bad and basically have no shot at the 1st pick, but not only that have a portion of the fan base thinking alot of these guys are fine...

This team has alot more problems than it's pass rush and the right side of it's OL.

So, you want us to reach for someone just because we have a "need" at QB?

If we still have a "need" at QB next year, we'll be picking in the same spot with a better class of QB.

Mecca
12-08-2008, 03:08 AM
So, you want us to reach for someone just because we have a "need" at QB?

If we still have a "need" at QB next year, we'll be picking in the same spot with a better class of QB.

First and foremost we have no idea who's coming out...if all the JR QB's were to declare this QB class would be good with next years being awful...

I'm not a big proponent of reaching just like I'm not one of taking a DE just for the sake of taking one.

mikey23545
12-08-2008, 04:06 AM
Yeah, but Tony can't possibly know as much about team needs as fans.

Yeah, it's not like he's Mecca or something....

JOhn
12-08-2008, 04:26 AM
Yeah, it's not like he's Mecca or something....

ROFL

BigRock
12-08-2008, 04:26 AM
The fact of the matter is that he and the offense have regressed in every game since Tampa.

27 points in the Tampa game.
19 in the SD game (really 21 if not for the snap **** up)
20 in NO game
31 in the Buffalo game (24 with Tyler at the helm)
13 in the Oakland game
10 in the Denver game

With the exception of the one Buffalo game, it's been a steady trend downward.

The Buffalo game is a pretty massive exception. The offense not only put up the points you mentioned, they set a season high in yardage (460+), and that was with five turnovers on the day. Just take the two fumbles away and they could have gone north of 500 yards and 40 points.

Looking at those scores, there's obviously a difference in the home/road splits. The offense is averaging about 24 points a game at home with Thigpen under center and just 14 on the road. There's two home games coming up, so we'll be able to see if there's a definite regression or if he just plays better at home.

kstater
12-08-2008, 05:01 AM
And the march back towards mediorcrity begins.

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 05:57 AM
tony said croyle was our qb too....


so what?

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 06:05 AM
Thigpen's ceiling is probably a top 20 quarterback. He's a great backup. I don't think you can win a Super Bowl with him. That doesn't mean that we should cut him, but if you don't have a truly elite QB, you should always be looking for one. The fact of the matter is that he and the offense have regressed in every game since Tampa.

27 points in the Tampa game.
19 in the SD game (really 21 if not for the snap **** up)
20 in NO game
31 in the Buffalo game (24 with Tyler at the helm)
13 in the Oakland game
10 in the Denver game

With the exception of the one Buffalo game, it's been a steady trend downward. People need to stop conflating not a franchise QB with not worth a roster spot. That's not what ChiefsCountry is saying at all.


thigpen has played worse....he barely completed 50% of his passes yesterday, and spent most of a scoreless second half throwing uncatchable footballs against a terrible defense...

he ran two plays under center in the redzone and threw 2 ball into the stands...

since his first three games. his ints are up (and near ints are waaay up) and his accuracy is down...

but chiefs fans don't care...better than bad is all they care about

not drafting a QB because of tony would be so fucking incomprehensibly stupid that you know it will happen....

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 07:16 AM
and I don't have a problem with thigpen starting the year next year, but you still draft a QB...

they are discrete issues

FringeNC
12-08-2008, 07:49 AM
This offense reminds me of the 2001 offense. We were a top 10 offense in yardage, but not scoring because of Red Zone struggles. Creative scheming can generate yardage between the 20s, but in the Red Zone, poor offensive lines really hurt. We need to improve the right side of the line so that running becomes a credible threat in the Red Zone.

JASONSAUTO
12-08-2008, 08:11 AM
Here is all the quarterbacks to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs:
Daryle Lamonica
Bob Griese
Pat Ryan
Dan Marino
Jim Kelly
Stan Humphries
Jim Kelly
Dan Marino
Jim Harbaugh
[B]John Elway
Peyton Manning
Peyton Manning

Bold - Hall of Famer/Franchise Quarterback
Italtic - Will be a Hall of Famer

PS I am suprised Lamonica isnt, he is #2 all time in winning percentage.

so in this post you actually say that we've been beat in the playoffs by 4 HOFers and 4 non HOFers right and 1 who probably will be looks almost 50-50 to me. whats your point?

Bwana
12-08-2008, 08:46 AM
Hmmm? I like Thigpen, but I'm not sure he is "the one." Herm needs to turn him loose for the rest of the year and give everyone a better idea. Even if he shines like a diamond in a billy goats ass, if they have a chance to pick up waht looks to be a great QB in the draft, the management would be fools not to draft him. Croyle is done (he breaks easier than a toothpick) Huard is done (Old, tired, no heart when things look bad) and Gray huge ?? On top of that, you have a coach that is a QB killer and I fully expect that Clark Kent cap saver Hunt will retain him next year.

I respect Tony as much as any player on the team. He is a lock to be in the hall and has the heart of a lion, but there is a good chance he won't even be here next year. He has proven he doesn't want to be here with his trade requests and I think they will give him his wish in the off season.

All that being said, this team has a lot of needs, including DE, LB, OL, DL and the list goes on. We are not a playoff team next year IMHO and with all those needs to fill, I will be pissed off if they reach for a QB in the draft with a high pick. If there is what looks to be a sure thing, go for it, if not, fill the other needs and keep building.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:09 AM
KC fans love average QBs it gives them an euphoric boner if Chiefs go to 9-7 next year. It gives raw ecstasy beyond belief

Well if that's the angle we're working here, then my two-cents breaks down like this:

I loved Trent Green. Loved, Loved, Loved, Loved, Loved, Loved, Loved that motherfucker will all my heart and soul.

Sure-Oz
12-08-2008, 09:16 AM
if the QB is there take him that said, who the hell will we take? Detroit isn't going to win a game let alone 2

Rausch
12-08-2008, 09:21 AM
They are close.

I think the shocking level of talend we've added and the play of many 1st year guys should surprise most everyone. Gonzo included.

That, and funny thing is the constant losing has turned Herm into a "go fo it" coach.

He's ig-nert, stubborn, and often wrong, but the team as a whole IS getting better...

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:24 AM
They are close.

I think the shocking level of talend we've added and the play of many 1st year guys should surprise most everyone. Gonzo included.

That, and funny thing is the constant losing has turned Herm into a "go fo it" coach.

He's ig-nert, stubborn, and often wrong, but the team as a whole IS getting better...

Agreed. In my entire tenure as a fan, I have NEVER seen this team take a chance on any kind of regular basis.

Mark M
12-08-2008, 09:24 AM
27 points in the Tampa game.
19 in the SD game (really 21 if not for the snap **** up)
20 in NO game
31 in the Buffalo game (24 with Tyler at the helm)
13 in the Oakland game
10 in the Denver game


That should be on the front page of every KC Chiefs-related Web site on the Intratubes.

:clap:

Thigpen continues to play like what he truly is: a terrific backup, or a solidly mediocre starter. Thinking he's anything else seems like wishful thinking.

Granted, I have no clue whether or not Carl and Herm (or, fates willing, someone else) can draft someone better. And if the defense could stop anyone on third down, maybe Thiggy has a few more wins.

But as of right now, no matter what Tony says (and now matter how much we all desperately want a QBotF for the team) Thigpen just doesn't seem able to make some of the throws he needs to. At least not consistently.

It's a shame, really, because he seems like such a nice kid who's trying so hard and playing his ass off.

But this ain't the Special Olympics -- it takes more than just effort to get a trophy.

MM
~~:shrug:

memyselfI
12-08-2008, 09:25 AM
Good for Tony. I agree with him on this. The guy is going to be a very good QB in the NFL. Perhaps not with the Chiefs...

but then not many are.:doh!:

HemiEd
12-08-2008, 09:32 AM
Amen.

Today was the first game I got to see him play 4 qtrs, and I was very pleased with what I saw. Does he look like a Hall of Fame QB? No, but there is nothing to say he couldn't be a SOLID NFL Qb, in the future. And right now, he looks pretty damn good for a rookie.

Yep, and looking how much the guy has improved this season, who is to say he can't be a top QB in a year or so?

Rausch
12-08-2008, 09:34 AM
That should be on the front page of every KC Chiefs-related Web site on the Intratubes.

:clap:

Thigpen continues to play like what he truly is: a terrific backup, or a solidly mediocre starter. Thinking he's anything else seems like wishful thinking.

Granted, I have no clue whether or not Carl and Herm (or, fates willing, someone else) can draft someone better. And if the defense could stop anyone on third down, maybe Thiggy has a few more wins.

But as of right now, no matter what Tony says (and now matter how much we all desperately want a QBotF for the team) Thigpen just doesn't seem able to make some of the throws he needs to. At least not consistently.

It's a shame, really, because he seems like such a nice kid who's trying so hard and playing his ass off.

But this ain't the Special Olympics -- it takes more than just effort to get a trophy.

MM
~~:shrug:

You might be right. Odds are it's true.

But unlike Croyle, Pigpen gave us reason to believe in him ON THE FIELD.

Not 'cause he's bang'n a 5 star hottie, not 'cause Herm loves him, and not 'cause he's got a rocket arm.

He moves the chains. He scores. He manages long drives.

Pigpen probably is not the long term answer at QB but he has proven (with WORSE scrubs) why Croyle isn't any kind of answer. At any depth.

vailpass
12-08-2008, 09:35 AM
Did Denver fans feel that way about Elway in his first two years?

No.
Not...Even...Close. They wanted his ass GONE. I understand the pull of intangibles probably better than anyone else here, but it is MUCH too early to start pulling out the 'Magic 8-Ball' on Thigpen.
Every week, he takes a few more steps. Sometimes they're big and noticeable, sometimes they're not.
But you have to admit; the guy's learning curve is OFF THE CHARTS!

This couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I was there, were you?

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:35 AM
Good for Tony. I agree with him on this. The guy is going to be a very good QB in the NFL. Perhaps not with the Chiefs...

but then not many are.:doh!:
ROFL

But...but...there is magic in the way he sucks! That's the criteria I'm told.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/Elway-3.png

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 09:44 AM
Its amazing that you guys want to play way against the odds at the QB position.

memyselfI
12-08-2008, 09:47 AM
You might be right. Odds are it's true.

But unlike Croyle, Pigpen gave us reason to believe in him ON THE FIELD.

Not 'cause he's bang'n a 5 star hottie, not 'cause Herm loves him, and not 'cause he's got a rocket arm.

He moves the chains. He scores. He manages long drives.

Pigpen probably is not the long term answer at QB but he has proven (with WORSE scrubs) why Croyle isn't any kind of answer. At any depth.

It's not what he makes the fan feel rather its what he makes his teammates feel. He has the intangibles that people, veterans and future HOFers like Tony, see and realize is needed in a QB and leader.

That is why the third string no name QB is out there risking his hide to make a play in games that mean nothing in a season that has been a wasteland. Also why the Chiefs two other named prima donna QBs are sitting pretty on their asses.

Rausch
12-08-2008, 09:47 AM
ROFL

But...but...there is magic in the way he sucks! That's the criteria I'm told.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/Elway-3.png

Next time you quote her you get neg rep for life.

Don't test me. I honestly have nothing better to do...

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:55 AM
Next time you quote her you get neg rep for life.

Don't test me. I honestly have nothing better to do...

Her? This person: cdcox???

Rausch
12-08-2008, 09:56 AM
Her? This person: cdcox???




Nein.

Memyselfislamicfundamentalist...

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 09:58 AM
Nein.

Memyselfislamicfundamentalist...

Then you have completely lost me. I have NO idea who you are talking about.

Mark M
12-08-2008, 09:59 AM
Next time you quote her you get neg rep for life.

Don't test me. I honestly have nothing better to do...

Must ... resist ... tempting ... of ... fate ... and Rausch ...

MM
~~:evil:

memyselfI
12-08-2008, 10:00 AM
Then you have completely lost me. I have NO idea who you are talking about.

Neither does he. Obviously. He is using verbiage from years ago. :D

But let's stay on topic.

Deberg_1990
12-08-2008, 10:09 AM
Havnt read this whole thread, but ill say this:


He needs to improve on his accuracy if the Chiefs ever hope to become consistent winners under his leadership.

Hes sitting at around a 54% completion rate.

The top QB's in this league typically have around a 60-65% rate.

For comparison, yesterday Cutler was 32-40

Thiggy was only 17-32.

Matt Ryan is sitting at a 62% completion rate.

He needs to be hitting around 5 to 7 more passes in key situations in a game.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 10:09 AM
Nein.

Memyselfislamicfundamentalist...

The quote came from cdcox, and is therefore "in bounds" and will continue to be used.

Rausch
12-08-2008, 10:12 AM
The quote came from cdcox, and is therefore "in bounds" and will continue to be used.

I quoted your post to let you know I was talking to you. You quoted the hag before.

TEX
12-08-2008, 10:12 AM
Tony is correct about Thigpen.

luv
12-08-2008, 10:14 AM
Havnt read this whole thread, but ill say this:


He needs to improve on his accuracy if the Chiefs ever hope to become consistent winners under his leadership.

Hes sitting at around a 54% completion rate.

The top QB's in this league typically have around a 60-65% rate.

For comparison, yesterday Cutler was 32-40

Thiggy was only 17-32.

Matt Ryan is sitting at a 62% completion rate.

He needs to be hitting around 5 to 7 more passes in key situations in a game.

Don't forget to take into account some dropsies we've had, too. I'm not saying he hasn't thrown some bad throws, just that a few of them were just dropped balls.

Deberg_1990
12-08-2008, 10:26 AM
Don't forget to take into account some dropsies we've had, too. I'm not saying he hasn't thrown some bad throws, just that a few of them were just dropped balls.

Yesterday, he had two or three overthrows that should have went for big gains or a TD.


Those are those "Key" plays that top NFL QB's make. Thats why they are difference makers.

JASONSAUTO
12-08-2008, 10:28 AM
Havnt read this whole thread, but ill say this:


He needs to improve on his accuracy if the Chiefs ever hope to become consistent winners under his leadership.

Hes sitting at around a 54% completion rate.

The top QB's in this league typically have around a 60-65% rate.

For comparison, yesterday Cutler was 32-40

Thiggy was only 17-32.

Matt Ryan is sitting at a 62% completion rate.

He needs to be hitting around 5 to 7 more passes in key situations in a game.

thats actually probably less passes than were dropped yesterday(hell in any game he's started)

JASONSAUTO
12-08-2008, 10:31 AM
Yesterday, he had two or three overthrows that should have went for big gains or a TD.


Those are those "Key" plays that top NFL QB's make. Thats why they are difference makers.

most of the "top" qbs arent in their first year starting.
on the overthrow to darling that was 1st down
2nd LJ loses 7
3rd thigpen scrambles and throws a beautiful pass to franklin at the 2, franklin had position and the ball hit him in the chest, he dropped it.
Thigpen made a bad pass yes, but he came right back and even with LJ acting the fool put us in a position to still score a td

LOCOChief
12-08-2008, 10:36 AM
Tony your awesome, but the kid simply doesn't have what it takes. Everytime he takes a snap under center he looks like a person you just got out of the shitter,light footed with a brown streak in his pants. He just doesn't look comfortable, and with that limitation Thigpen's numbers have dropped.


Hmm we may have a winner, someone who knows more about how to move the Chiefs offense than our HOF tight end. Cash cab hopes to never get a now it all like you in the back seat.

Deberg_1990
12-08-2008, 10:36 AM
most of the "top" qbs arent in their first year starting.


Im not saying he cant improve. Im just pointing out what he needs to improve upon.

By next year he needs to be up to a 60% completion rate.

luv
12-08-2008, 10:39 AM
Yesterday, he had two or three overthrows that should have went for big gains or a TD.


Those are those "Key" plays that top NFL QB's make. Thats why they are difference makers.

Yes, I understand that. That's why I said I knew he made some bad throws, but speaking generally, there have been some decent passes that have been dropped. Not disagreeing with you at all. Just saying that might factor into the equation, although probably not much.

Mr. Laz
12-08-2008, 10:42 AM
"Maybe I like him because he throws to me," Gonzalez joked

many jokes contain more than just a little bit of truth

luv
12-08-2008, 10:43 AM
many jokes contain more than just a little bit of truth

Every QB throws to him.

Mr. Laz
12-08-2008, 10:44 AM
Yesterday, he had two or three overthrows that should have went for big gains or a TD.


Those are those "Key" plays that top NFL QB's make. Thats why they are difference makers.
that one overthrow to the corner of the endzone was in part because Darling gave up on the route about half through and then started running hard to make it up.

it would of been a tough catch, but it could of be caught

Mr. Laz
12-08-2008, 10:45 AM
Every QB throws to him.
which is completely not the point

luv
12-08-2008, 10:47 AM
which is completely not the point

Of course he likes to be thrown to. Every QB has thrown to him. Has he said things like this about them? Huard? Croyle?

RINGLEADER
12-08-2008, 10:51 AM
Huard stared down Gonzalez and didn't throw to anybody on the field but Gonzalez, and he never got the endorsement.

I think much of the reason I like the kid is that he does seem like he's taking this job very seriously. While he still makes some mistakes on the field, I'm continually impressed by his decisions about when to run the ball, when to throw the ball away, when to dump the ball off instead of forcing the ball into a double-covered receiver in the end zone. I'm really impressed with how well he commands the game. But he's going to have to work on his accuracy, as he does have a tendency to miss his receivers on some of those fly routes.

That's because, except for a brief stint in 2006, Huard never proved he could get the job done and he has no real upside now. He is what he is. Tyler still has a way to go but I could certainly see him getting better, improving aspects of his game, and, with a defense, winning a lot of games. Since he became the starter he's lost five games by 25 total points. He's posting a 90-something passer rating. He's thrown 12 TDs to 4 INTs. Is he still making mistakes? Yes. Can he get better? Yes. Can he be a winning QB? With a defense, most certainly.

Bowser
12-08-2008, 10:52 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 11:02 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia

Winner, winner.

Mr. Laz
12-08-2008, 11:13 AM
Of course he likes to be thrown to. Every QB has thrown to him. Has he said things like this about them? Huard? Croyle?
once again ... of course every QB throws to him

but there are DEGREES to which they throw to him

Gonzo's numbers went way down lately until Thigpen came on board.

Thigpen looks for Gonzo like a religion .... double coverage,triple coverage, Holy-shit coverage.

of course Tony loves the guy that is force feeding him the ball.


~this coming from me ... a guy who has liked Thigpen from the beginning~

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 11:22 AM
Its amazing that you guys want to play way against the odds at the QB position.

ChiefsCountry, I can understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind that Thigpen wasn't fairly evaluated in the scouting process. If I'm not mistaken, he wasn't even invited to the combine. It's almost a wonder that anyone spotted him at all. So when you say that he's a 7th round pick, we're not talking about a guy who went through the entire evaluation process and was graded as a low-ranking pick. We're talking about a guy who fell completely underneath the radar. Who knows how he would have graded if he got a fair shake.

The statistics you provide are compelling. But it's not a silver bullet. For one thing, your statistic does not account for the fact that at most points in history, half of the starters in the NFL were first round picks (15 of 32 or almost 50% in 2008). First round picks get a lot more chances to play because when teams are dealing with uncertain players, first round picks are less risky. So when you say 57% of first round picks made the Super Bowl, could that be because they are given much more chances to start? Let's face facts that had Huard and Croyle not been injured, Thigpen would have never been given a chance to play. How many situations have perfectly capable 6th or 7th round picks rode the pine because they were never given a chance to start? So your sample is really skewed because first round picks are given much more opportunities to start.

On the flip side, late round picks are given a very short leash. They usually get a half-season at most to prove their worth and then they're scrapped. You rarely get a chance to see what a late-round QB could do if he could just get a chance to start for a full season. Keep in mind also that most late round QBs who do start are started out of desperation. Thigpen would have never been given an opportunity to start if two players in front of him didn't get injured. Same with Bulger. Same with Warner. Same with Brady. ONe of the few recent exceptions to that role is Tony Romo.

It's like picking marbles out of a jar. When 15 out of 32 marbles in the jar are blue, chances are that if you stick your hand in that jar, you have a 50% chance of picking out a blue marble. So I think there's a compelling argument that the statistics are largely skewed because first round picks get a lot more chances to start and the patience to develop in the NFL.

ChiefsCountry
12-08-2008, 11:32 AM
ChiefsCountry, I can understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind that Thigpen wasn't fairly evaluated in the scouting process. If I'm not mistaken, he wasn't even invited to the combine. It's almost a wonder that anyone spotted him at all. So when you say that he's a 7th round pick, we're not talking about a guy who went through the entire evaluation process and was graded as a low-ranking pick. We're talking about a guy who fell completely underneath the radar. Who knows how he would have graded if he got a fair shake.

The statistics you provide are compelling. But it's not a silver bullet. For one thing, your statistic does not account for the fact that at most points in history, half of the starters in the NFL were first round picks (15 of 32 or almost 50% in 2008). First round picks get a lot more chances to play because when teams are dealing with uncertain players, first round picks are less risky. So when you say 57% of first round picks made the Super Bowl, could that be because they are given much more chances to start? Let's face facts that had Huard and Croyle not been injured, Thigpen would have never been given a chance to play. How many situations have perfectly capable 6th or 7th round picks rode the pine because they were never given a chance to start? So your sample is really skewed because first round picks are given much more opportunities to start.

On the flip side, late round picks are given a very short leash. They usually get a half-season at most to prove their worth and then they're scrapped. You rarely get a chance to see what a late-round QB could do if he could just get a chance to start for a full season. Keep in mind also that most late round QBs who do start are started out of desperation. Thigpen would have never been given an opportunity to start if two players in front of him didn't get injured. Same with Bulger. Same with Warner. Same with Brady. ONe of the few recent exceptions to that role is Tony Romo.

It's like picking marbles out of a jar. When 15 out of 32 marbles in the jar are blue, chances are that if you stick your hand in that jar, you have a 50% chance of picking out a blue marble. So I think there's a compelling argument that the statistics are largely skewed because first round picks get a lot more chances to start and the patience to develop in the NFL.

There is only one damn stat that matters and that is winning the Super Bowl and you arent doing it with a 7th round wavier wire pickup.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 11:51 AM
Its amazing that you guys want to play way against the odds at the QB position.

It's not about strategy with these guys, it's about "hope". As though "hope" brings you fourth quarter comebacks.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 11:54 AM
The fans of this team really deserve what they get, because they are the dumbest shitbags in the NFL.

It doesn't matter if Thigpen is better than Croyle or Huard, that's immaterial. If you are really concerned with this franchise being able to "win" and not just compete with a string of 9-7's that were "Oh we were 2 plays from 11-5", then you need to think about a quarterback who compares to Manning, Brady, Brees, and Roethlisberger.

All Chiefs fans seem to be able to do is compare players to current or past Chiefs, not realizing that there are over 1500 other active players in the league right now, and the players that you are comparing said people to haven't won a fucking thing.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 11:57 AM
It's not about strategy with these guys, it's about "hope". As though "hope" brings you fourth quarter comebacks.

No, no it's not. It's an honest assessment of strengths and weaknesses on both sides of the ball.

And right now, the Edwards "No Fence" is the turd in the punchbowl along with an O-Line that couldn't open a hole big enough for a Leprechaun to run through.

JASONSAUTO
12-08-2008, 11:58 AM
. ONe of the few recent exceptions to that role is Tony Romo.

.

didnt bledsoe get injured that season?

DaneMcCloud
12-08-2008, 12:00 PM
Havnt read this whole thread, but ill say this:


He needs to improve on his accuracy if the Chiefs ever hope to become consistent winners under his leadership.

Hes sitting at around a 54% completion rate.

The top QB's in this league typically have around a 60-65% rate.

For comparison, yesterday Cutler was 32-40

Thiggy was only 17-32.

Matt Ryan is sitting at a 62% completion rate.

He needs to be hitting around 5 to 7 more passes in key situations in a game.

Receivers not named Jeff Webb and Devard Darling would go a long way in improving that stat.

And Dwayne Bowe's league leading drops (or 2nd leading, I haven't checked this week) would help as well.

JASONSAUTO
12-08-2008, 12:02 PM
All Chiefs fans seem to be able to do is compare players to current or past Chiefs, not realizing that there are over 1500 other active players in the league right now, and the players that you are comparing said people to haven't won a fucking thing.

Hamas we've compared his stats with MULTIPLE HOFers in their first years(VERY COMPARABLE some were even better:eek:) and you guys were like"you cant compare him to hofers, now you are saying we cant compare him to guys who havent won a thing. one question: WHO IN THE HELL DO WE COMPARE HIM TO?

Zouk
12-08-2008, 12:07 PM
then you need to think about a quarterback who compares to Manning, Brady, Brees, and Roethlisberger.




Okay - I'm thinking about it. I want it. Now how specifically do we do it?

Were you advocating trading both #1s and a #3 to move up 2 spots to take Ryan last year? I'm not even sure Dimitroff would have taken that - they already had lots of picks.

What if Stafford goes #1 or #2? We likely won't have the ammo to get up that high. Probably not even close. Then what?

Most teams don't have and can't get QBs like those (including those who pick #1 and probably also the team that picks Stafford). That's reality. These teams have to deal with the realistic alternatives to determine how they can get to a Super Bowl. Right now that looks like developing around Thigpen to me.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 12:11 PM
That's fine. I strongly encourage the Chiefs to bring in strong competition for Thigpen. But what I can't get over is those who completely discount the idea that Thigpen could be a QBOTF purely because of his draft rating.

-Brees is only successful because the Chargers gave him a 2nd chance after a miserable sophomore season as a Charger.
-Brady probably would have never started if Bledsoe didn't get injured for an extended period of time. Recall that Bellichick considered not starting Brady in the conference championship game because he didn't believe that starters should lose their job to injury. Had Bledsoe come back in time for the first playoff game, Brady would not have started in the playoffs and probably would have been backup the season thereafter. Who knows, maybe Brady would have been a backup for 3 seasons.
-If Manning were a 7th round pick, no way would a coach let him start his sophomore season as a Colt after a pretty subpar rookie campaign.
-The only reason Thigpen is starting today is because Croyle and Huard fell to injury. He would not have been given in an opportunity otherwise

Paints a pretty compelling picture. First rounders are given every opportunity to succeed, whereas late round picks are always expected to fail.

I'm all for bringing in insurance. Thigpen hasn't proven enough yet to prove he deserves to be QBOTF. But like Brees and Manning, he deserves every opportunity to improve and develop. I don't know why they're allowed to be graded on a far different curve than a first rounder.

The fans of this team really deserve what they get, because they are the dumbest shitbags in the NFL.

It doesn't matter if Thigpen is better than Croyle or Huard, that's immaterial. If you are really concerned with this franchise being able to "win" and not just compete with a string of 9-7's that were "Oh we were 2 plays from 11-5", then you need to think about a quarterback who compares to Manning, Brady, Brees, and Roethlisberger.

All Chiefs fans seem to be able to do is compare players to current or past Chiefs, not realizing that there are over 1500 other active players in the league right now, and the players that you are comparing said people to haven't won a ****ing thing.

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 12:11 PM
The fans of this team really deserve what they get, because they are the dumbest shitbags in the NFL.

It doesn't matter if Thigpen is better than Croyle or Huard, that's immaterial. If you are really concerned with this franchise being able to "win" and not just compete with a string of 9-7's that were "Oh we were 2 plays from 11-5", then you need to think about a quarterback who compares to Manning, Brady, Brees, and Roethlisberger.

All Chiefs fans seem to be able to do is compare players to current or past Chiefs, not realizing that there are over 1500 other active players in the league right now, and the players that you are comparing said people to haven't won a ****ing thing.

i feel the same damn way

and i also know - and you do too - that we're going to keep making the same mistakes we've made...no one in this franchise, or fan base honestly, really understands that the QB is the one position you absolutely have to get right....they're convinced you can draft a RT and a LB and spend a few years hoping you luck into some playoff wins...because you know, "anything can happen" if you make the playoffs...and the warm fuzz feeling of that hope is all the franchise desires...

drafting a QB in the 1st is risky and unthinkable....trading up to do so is inconceivable...so we'll muddle along another decade with our tiny plans, our tiny hopes, and our true fan vermin....

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 12:12 PM
didnt bledsoe get injured that season?

If I'm not mistaken, he was forced out because Bledsoe was doing horrible (was getting sacked on almost every play) and the fans were screaming for Romo. I don't recall, but I think that was a coaching decision, not one based on injury, but I could be wrong.

Micjones
12-08-2008, 12:13 PM
People were perfectly willing to make the 6 TD 6 INT guy our QBOTF.
I think I can live with Thigpen for now.

the Talking Can
12-08-2008, 12:16 PM
I think I can live with Thigpen for now.

as if on cue...

what does that sentiment have to do with building a team?

we need to be thinking long term because opportunities available to us now will not be later....

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 12:18 PM
But it's not entirely about drafting a first round quarterback.

It's that they have not developed a young QB... PERIOD. Regardless of draft ranking. Developing Thigpen is the kind of thing this franchise has not done in a very long time.

i feel the same damn way

and i also know - and you do too - that we're going to keep making the same mistakes we've made...no one in this franchise, or fan base honestly, really understands that the QB is the one position you absolutely have to get right....they're convinced you can draft a RT and a LB and spend a few years hoping you luck into some playoff wins...because you know, "anything can happen" if you make the playoffs...and the warm fuzz feeling of that hope is all the franchise desires...

drafting a QB in the 1st is risky and unthinkable....trading up to do so is inconceivable...so we'll muddle along another decade with our tiny plans, our tiny hopes, and our true fan vermin....

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-08-2008, 12:18 PM
If I'm not mistaken, he was forced out because Bledsoe was doing horrible (was getting sacked on almost every play) and the fans were screaming for Romo. I don't recall, but I think that was a coaching decision, not one based on injury, but I could be wrong.

He was benched at halftime of a MNF slaughter.

Sure-Oz
12-08-2008, 12:27 PM
i feel the same damn way

and i also know - and you do too - that we're going to keep making the same mistakes we've made...no one in this franchise, or fan base honestly, really understands that the QB is the one position you absolutely have to get right....they're convinced you can draft a RT and a LB and spend a few years hoping you luck into some playoff wins...because you know, "anything can happen" if you make the playoffs...and the warm fuzz feeling of that hope is all the franchise desires...

drafting a QB in the 1st is risky and unthinkable....trading up to do so is inconceivable...so we'll muddle along another decade with our tiny plans, our tiny hopes, and our true fan vermin....

It is worth the risk imo, you could have failure, but damn, we've fucked everything up anyway..

Reerun_KC
12-08-2008, 12:27 PM
KC fans love average QBs it gives them an euphoric boner if Chiefs go to 9-7 next year. It gives raw ecstasy beyond belief

QFT, wow you summed up many posters on this board nicely in one post...

JASONSAUTO
12-08-2008, 12:28 PM
If I'm not mistaken, he was forced out because Bledsoe was doing horrible (was getting sacked on almost every play) and the fans were screaming for Romo. I don't recall, but I think that was a coaching decision, not one based on injury, but I could be wrong.

Maybe not but bledsoe had been injured ALOT those last few years

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 12:36 PM
QFT, wow you summed up many posters on this board nicely in one post...

If Gun keeps his job; draft the QB.

If we get a new D-Coord and D-Coaching/Support staff; Defensive Overhaul.

It's logical, it's sound, and it's the best god damned idea on this entire thread. If I could rep my own brilliance, I damn sure would.

Learn it, Live it, Love it.

Chiefs Pantalones
12-08-2008, 12:43 PM
They are close.

I think the shocking level of talend we've added and the play of many 1st year guys should surprise most everyone. Gonzo included.

That, and funny thing is the constant losing has turned Herm into a "go fo it" coach.

He's ig-nert, stubborn, and often wrong, but the team as a whole IS getting better...

I guarantee you Herm changes when the team is winning. He'll be more conservative next year if we are winning games instead of being 2-11. That will hurt us come playoff time, obviously. He's not the guy for the job, I can't wait until he's gone.

bkkcoh
12-08-2008, 12:48 PM
I woudln't tab him as the starter in minicamp, but I would say that he would be odds on favorite to be the starter next year.

Coach
12-08-2008, 12:50 PM
as if on cue...

what does that sentiment have to do with building a team?

we need to be thinking long term because opportunities available to us now will not be later....

Well, let's just remind ourselves that Thigpen is only starting his what, 8th game in the NFL?

As far as anybody's concerned, IMHO, the way to build a team is to build through the lines. Our O-line is improved from the previous year. Is it still a weakness? Yeah, on the RT and possibly the RG spot, depending on who you ask.

But EVERYBODY knows that the D-line is just shit. We do not have a consistent pass-rush, and that leaves our LB's and DB's hanging out to dry. Your LB's and DB's can't do their jobs effectively if they are not getting any help from their front 4. It's amazing that the Chiefs are in the positive ranking in the turnover department, and imagine if we had a major pass-rushing line, like the Steelers? I would bet that number would go off the roof.

And I don't need to bring up the fact that we only have six sacks in 13 games already. I'll repeat it again. Six sacks in 13 games. Pretty impressive, eh?

I guess what's more insulting to me is that the head coach was supposed to be a defensive mastermind guy, when he was hired. Well, apparently, that is not the case.

Everybody could say that injuries are the reason, and I have no doubt about it, but even that, they should still be able to generate a sack at least every game. I mean, I can't even remember when was the last time a Chief got a sack. I know #94 almost had a chance at the endzone, but just pulled a Kawika Mitchell on Cutler, which enabled Cutler to throw that ball to his TE.

If Cutler was sacked, it could had been a safety, and Denver would have not gotten that TD out of that drive.`

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 12:52 PM
I guarantee you Herm changes when the team is winning. He'll be more conservative next year if we are winning games instead of being 2-11. That will hurt us come playoff time, obviously. He's not the guy for the job, I can't wait until he's gone.

Yep, we get a good D, and I see Chan being Herm cuffed, and us going right back to playing not to lose. Getting a 2 point lead, running 3 straight times up the centers ass, and punting to Farve, Peyton, or whoever so we can lose on a last drive field gaol. It WILL happen in a meaningful game. I would bet the farm on it.

Chiefs Pantalones
12-08-2008, 12:56 PM
Yep, we get a good D, and I see Chan being Herm cuffed, and us going right back to playing not to lose. Getting a 2 point lead, running 3 straight times up the centers ass, and punting to Farve, Peyton, or whoever so we can lose on a last drive field gaol. It WILL happen in a meaningful game. I would bet the farm on it.

Exactly. I can't wait until he's gone, along with Carl of course.

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 12:57 PM
Well, let's just remind ourselves that Thigpen is only starting his what, 8th game in the NFL?

As far as anybody's concerned, IMHO, the way to build a team is to build through the lines. Our O-line is improved from the previous year. Is it still a weakness? Yeah, on the RT and possibly the RG spot, depending on who you ask.

But EVERYBODY knows that the D-line is just shit. We do not have a consistent pass-rush, and that leaves our LB's and DB's hanging out to dry. Your LB's and DB's can't do their jobs effectively if they are not getting any help from their front 4. It's amazing that the Chiefs are in the positive ranking in the turnover department, and imagine if we had a major pass-rushing line, like the Steelers? I would bet that number would go off the roof.

And I don't need to bring up the fact that we only have six sacks in 13 games already. I'll repeat it again. Six sacks in 13 games. Pretty impressive, eh?

I guess what's more insulting to me is that the head coach was supposed to be a defensive mastermind guy, when he was hired. Well, apparently, that is not the case.

Everybody could say that injuries are the reason, and I have no doubt about it, but even that, they should still be able to generate a sack at least every game. I mean, I can't even remember when was the last time a Chief got a sack. I know #94 almost had a chance at the endzone, but just pulled a Kawika Mitchell on Cutler, which enabled Cutler to throw that ball to his TE.

If Cutler was sacked, it could had been a safety, and Denver would have not gotten that TD out of that drive.`

Add that to the fact that we've focused mainly on Defense in the draft, and you have a huge coaching failure. I have Zero faith in Herm building a defense. It should take no longer than three drafts to build a top 15 defense.

Reerun_KC
12-08-2008, 12:57 PM
Yep, we get a good D, and I see Chan being Herm cuffed, and us going right back to playing not to lose. Getting a 2 point lead, running 3 straight times up the centers ass, and punting to Farve, Peyton, or whoever so we can lose on a last drive field gaol. It WILL happen in a meaningful game. I would bet the farm on it.
He has done it time and time again. He will not change when it matters the most... IF he can build a good D, which is supposed to be his strong point, then we will see if he changes the way the games are called.

He will not have a high risk, high reward offense, when his defense is middle of the pack...

Reerun_KC
12-08-2008, 12:58 PM
Add that to the fact that we've focused mainly on Defense in the draft, and you have a huge coaching failure. I have Zero faith in Herm building a defense. It should take no longer than three drafts to build a top 15 defense.

Considering the starting DL are Herm and his staff developed picks...

How is that working out for us?

kstater
12-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Derrick Anderson was well on his way to a HOF career last year according to some, what's he doing these days?



Tony Romo was on his way to best ever status. Now, how does he do when the game is on the line?

Reerun_KC
12-08-2008, 01:02 PM
Derrick Anderson was well on his way to a HOF career last year according to some, what's he doing these days?



Tony Romo was on his way to best ever status. Now, how does he do when the game is on the line?

Perspective.....

Which is lacking here a lot...

DJ's left nut
12-08-2008, 01:56 PM
I think I'd give Thigpen a shot next year, but his accuracy terrifies me.

I seriously doubt that he'll ever be able to throw that fade to the corner of the end zone (and the fact that this was the playcall on 3rd and goal further emphasizes our playcalling problems). His 'throw' to Gonzo on the first down play makes his erratic arm even more apparent. Thigpen had 2 chances to tie that game with his arm, got down on himself and gave up on the 4th down play before anything had a chance to develop. With 2 putrid throws and a give up on 4th down, he really was awful on that final sequence.

He simply doesn't have the touch on deep balls and/or flag routes that a starting QB ought to have. He'll even misfire badly on 2/3 intermediate routes every game; that just can't happen. The throw that Cutler made to Marshall, Thigpen couldn't have made on his best day.

Accuracy can improve, but it doesn't just appear from nothing. At this point, Thigpen misses wide open recievers when he has his feet set, that's a pretty serious handicap. To quantify it, many NFL QBs have gone from a 7 to a 9 on the accuracy scale, very few have made it from 5 to 9. Most of these high INT rookies referenced in this thread simply made poor decisions; that corrects itself with time. Thigpen, as often as not, will make the right decision and just make a poor throw.

I'd give him 1 year with a new QB coach to prove me wrong, but I'd have a quick hook.

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 02:02 PM
I like thiggy, I really do, but I can't help but question whether he is the answer. If Stafford, or Bradford is there, you take 'em without question. You let Thigpen start next season, and if he fails you've got Stafford. If he becomes the guy you trade Stafford for a 1st, and 2nd. And yes someone will pay it. YES THEY WILL.

Chris Meck
12-08-2008, 02:03 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud.

sure, we need a franchise QB. Think you know where one is?

No. No you don't.

Matt Stafford? Is he Elway or Shuler? Manning or Leaf? Mcnabb or Culpepper? Phillip Rivers or Alex Smith?

Do you know?

Roethlisberger? I submit that if THAT is your bar, we're a lot closer than I think we are. Without a running game, Big Ben is...quite average.

If you compare physical attributes, and then stats in their first season, there's no reason to think Thigpen may not develop into a quality QB we can rely on for the next however many years. THE ONLY reason some of you are so hung up on it is due to his origins. Look at Peyton Manning's completion percentage in his first season.

QB's come from everywhere and anywhere. It's the hardest position in the league to project. Lots of people get paid lots of money to try, and many fail. Nobody posting on this board is qualified to evern try.

Kid's got a plus arm. He's got plus mobility. He's scrappy, he's got heart.
His mechanics are sometimes off, so his accuracy suffers at times. At times, he's super-accurate (witness that sideline throw to Gonzo yesterday).

That's correctable. Reading defenses is correctable too. These are learned skills.

I'm all for continuing to look for talent anywhere we can find it. I'm just saying the only thing we're doing with a no.1 draft pick QB is sitting his butt on the bench to watch the team go 3-13 again. Either that or we send him in and ruin him, like David Carr. Or Joey Harrington. Remember those two highly touted, can't miss prospects?

Without a good offensive line and a running game to help out, a young QB is not going to be successful. Period. Drafting one high in the first just ensures you'll be drafting high in the first again next year.

I'd like to be moving forward.

You can get your franchise QB all sorts of ways. Early in the first, late in the first, later rounds, Free agency, etc.

Maybe even in a 7th round pick off the waiver wire from Coastal Carolina. Maybe. But the team goes nowhere if it can't block, tackle, or rush the passer regardless.

OnTheWarpath58
12-08-2008, 02:09 PM
as if on cue...

what does that sentiment have to do with building a team?

we need to be thinking long term because opportunities available to us now will not be later....

And what exactly are these "opportunities available to us now" you speak of?

RedThat
12-08-2008, 02:11 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud.

sure, we need a franchise QB. Think you know where one is?

No. No you don't.

Matt Stafford? Is he Elway or Shuler? Manning or Leaf? Mcnabb or Culpepper? Phillip Rivers or Alex Smith?

Do you know?

Roethlisberger? I submit that if THAT is your bar, we're a lot closer than I think we are. Without a running game, Big Ben is...quite average.

If you compare physical attributes, and then stats in their first season, there's no reason to think Thigpen may not develop into a quality QB we can rely on for the next however many years. THE ONLY reason some of you are so hung up on it is due to his origins. Look at Peyton Manning's completion percentage in his first season.

QB's come from everywhere and anywhere. It's the hardest position in the league to project. Lots of people get paid lots of money to try, and many fail. Nobody posting on this board is qualified to evern try.

Kid's got a plus arm. He's got plus mobility. He's scrappy, he's got heart.
His mechanics are sometimes off, so his accuracy suffers at times. At times, he's super-accurate (witness that sideline throw to Gonzo yesterday).

That's correctable. Reading defenses is correctable too. These are learned skills.

I'm all for continuing to look for talent anywhere we can find it. I'm just saying the only thing we're doing with a no.1 draft pick QB is sitting his butt on the bench to watch the team go 3-13 again. Either that or we send him in and ruin him, like David Carr. Or Joey Harrington. Remember those two highly touted, can't miss prospects?

Without a good offensive line and a running game to help out, a young QB is not going to be successful. Period. Drafting one high in the first just ensures you'll be drafting high in the first again next year.

I'd like to be moving forward.

You can get your franchise QB all sorts of ways. Early in the first, late in the first, later rounds, Free agency, etc.

Maybe even in a 7th round pick off the waiver wire from Coastal Carolina. Maybe. But the team goes nowhere if it can't block, tackle, or rush the passer regardless.

Good post. I think Thigpen is showing a lot. I think he could be something special if he had a really GOOD coaching staff in front of him. I don't think that's the case. But he is proving he could be a QB that could be developed down the road? What would he be with a real coach that knows how to groom a QB?

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 02:16 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud.

sure, we need a franchise QB. Think you know where one is?

No. No you don't.

Matt Stafford? Is he Elway or Shuler? Manning or Leaf? Mcnabb or Culpepper? Phillip Rivers or Alex Smith?

Do you know?

Roethlisberger? I submit that if THAT is your bar, we're a lot closer than I think we are. Without a running game, Big Ben is...quite average.

If you compare physical attributes, and then stats in their first season, there's no reason to think Thigpen may not develop into a quality QB we can rely on for the next however many years. THE ONLY reason some of you are so hung up on it is due to his origins. Look at Peyton Manning's completion percentage in his first season.

QB's come from everywhere and anywhere. It's the hardest position in the league to project. Lots of people get paid lots of money to try, and many fail. Nobody posting on this board is qualified to evern try.

Kid's got a plus arm. He's got plus mobility. He's scrappy, he's got heart.
His mechanics are sometimes off, so his accuracy suffers at times. At times, he's super-accurate (witness that sideline throw to Gonzo yesterday).

That's correctable. Reading defenses is correctable too. These are learned skills.

I'm all for continuing to look for talent anywhere we can find it. I'm just saying the only thing we're doing with a no.1 draft pick QB is sitting his butt on the bench to watch the team go 3-13 again. Either that or we send him in and ruin him, like David Carr. Or Joey Harrington. Remember those two highly touted, can't miss prospects?

Without a good offensive line and a running game to help out, a young QB is not going to be successful. Period. Drafting one high in the first just ensures you'll be drafting high in the first again next year.

I'd like to be moving forward.

You can get your franchise QB all sorts of ways. Early in the first, late in the first, later rounds, Free agency, etc.

Maybe even in a 7th round pick off the waiver wire from Coastal Carolina. Maybe. But the team goes nowhere if it can't block, tackle, or rush the passer regardless.

Settle down there fella. It's a discussion board we all have our opinions here. I just happen to be of the opinion that Stafford is going to be a franchise QB, and I'm still saying that Thigpen should get his shot. I don't see Stafford as being a wasted pick, because I know that another team will be willing to give up good picks to aquire him if we don't need him, but what if Thigpen flops next season? It would be nice to have a QBOTF in place if that were to happen. Yes we need players all over the place, but it's a hell of alot easier to find those players in other areas in the draft than it is to find a FCHZ QB. You can argue all you want about Joe Montana, and Tom Brady, but the fact reamins that 90% of franchise QBs come from the 1sr rnd, and mainly from the top of it. If you don't believe me, go look at the list. It's called playing the odds, but oh I forgot, this fanbase is too chickenshit to take risks.

EDIT: We've all seen the list of QBs who won the SB, and where they were picked the numbers don't lie. The odds of finding a SB winning QB anywhere else, are hell of a lot worse that at the top of the 1st, and I want the best odds possible of landing that guy.

BigMeatballDave
12-08-2008, 02:53 PM
KC fans love average QBs it gives them an euphoric boner if Chiefs go to 9-7 next year. It gives raw ecstasy beyond beliefJFC I want an elite QB, too. How are you going to draft Stafford if he's not available? We don't even know for certain if he's entering the draft. He's the only one worthy of a top 5 pick.

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 03:12 PM
Settle down there fella. It's a discussion board we all have our opinions here. I just happen to be of the opinion that Stafford is going to be a franchise QB, and I'm still saying that Thigpen should get his shot. I don't see Stafford as being a wasted pick, because I know that another team will be willing to give up good picks to aquire him if we don't need him, but what if Thigpen flops next season? It would be nice to have a QBOTF in place if that were to happen. Yes we need players all over the place, but it's a hell of alot easier to find those players in other areas in the draft than it is to find a FCHZ QB. You can argue all you want about Joe Montana, and Tom Brady, but the fact reamins that 90% of franchise QBs come from the 1sr rnd, and mainly from the top of it. If you don't believe me, go look at the list. It's called playing the odds, but oh I forgot, this fanbase is too chickenshit to take risks.

EDIT: We've all seen the list of QBs who won the SB, and where they were picked the numbers don't lie. The odds of finding a SB winning QB anywhere else, are hell of a lot worse that at the top of the 1st, and I want the best odds possible of landing that guy.

And now, a Moment Of Reality:

You are a fan.
I am a fan.
You and I will be taking NO risks, and more to the point; you and I will not be deciding SHIT about this Franchise.

Thank you, that is all.

Rigodan
12-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Do you guys know what Elway's career passer rating was? It was 79.9. He only had a passer rating above 90 twice in his career. Joe Montana career passer rating 92.3, Steve Young 96.4, Dan Marino 86.4, Favre 85.8, hell even Rich Gannon posted an 84.7. So why do we remember Elway so well? because he always put together that drive in the 4th quarter to win the game. He was as great as he was becuase he was clutch.

Does anyone else see that with Thigpen? The San Diego game he led what would have been the game tying td drive that scored with 23 seconds left but a horrible play call on the 2-point conversion caused us to lose. The drive he led in the Oakland game right after he threw the pick eventually won us the game was a very impressive drive. Yesterday he was one foot short of tying the Denver game with four minutes left. Granted that was a terrible decision to run it on 4th down but he showed that ability to lead a 4th quarter drive again. I'm not saying he'll ever been anything close to Elway but I definately feel like we can win any time we're down by a touchdown or less in the 4th and I see Thigpen leading our offense onto the field. He still has a long way to go but I think he deserves another look next year because of that. Especially if Stafford wont be there when we pick.

Of course if he can't make great strides toward being able to competently run an offense from under center during the off season and training camp then this argument is irrelevant.

P.S. Elvis Grbacs career passer rating was only 0.3 behind Elways at 79.6

Darth CarlSatan
12-08-2008, 03:58 PM
And now, a Moment Of Reality:

You are a fan.
I am a fan.
You and I will be taking NO risks, and more to the point; you and I will not be deciding SHIT about this Franchise.

Thank you, that is all.

ADDENDUM AND BUMP:

Yep, here it is; the one thing I can point to and say, "that's my football forum, alright".
As the old saying goes; Know Thyself:

http://thefuntimesguide.com/audio/Bud_Light_Real_Men_of_Genius_Mr_Fantasy_Football_Manager.mp3

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 04:26 PM
90%? Where do you get that number from?

First round franchise QBs:
Big Ben, Peyton, Eli, Palmer, Cutler, Rivers, McNabb
Flacco, Ryan, Rodgers probably, but too soon to tell

Non first round franchise QBs:
Hasselbeck, Brady, Warner, Brees, Romo, Delhomme, Favre, Bulger

Even if you argue 1 or 2 or more of these players, the current result is still about 50-50.


But to get back on track, you have the arguments mixed up. You say that those who want to stick with Thigpen are too chicken shit to take a risk. And then you and a lot of other people talk about how first round picks are better % plays. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Thigpen supporters want to stick with Thigpen despite all the evidence that suggests a first round pick is a safer play, how does that equate to being chicken shit? The riskier proposition, to me, is to put the keys to the franchise in the hands of a 7th round pick. Given that most teams try to solve their QB problems through a first round QB, that to me seems to be the extremely conservative proposition. Does that make you chicken shit for not wanting to take a chance on a 7th rounder? I'm not asking that to be a dick. The argument just doesn't make sense to me and I've heard it so many times.

And another argument correction: to those who say "those who don't want to draft a first round pick don't want to do it because we've never done it before." We've also never groomed a 7th round pick QB and we've rarely ever groomed a young QB... PERIOD.

It would be very, very, very difficult to make a compelling argument that those who support Thigpen do so because they're afraid of change and afraid of risk. It's the exact opposite.


Settle down there fella. It's a discussion board we all have our opinions here. I just happen to be of the opinion that Stafford is going to be a franchise QB, and I'm still saying that Thigpen should get his shot. I don't see Stafford as being a wasted pick, because I know that another team will be willing to give up good picks to aquire him if we don't need him, but what if Thigpen flops next season? It would be nice to have a QBOTF in place if that were to happen. Yes we need players all over the place, but it's a hell of alot easier to find those players in other areas in the draft than it is to find a FCHZ QB. You can argue all you want about Joe Montana, and Tom Brady, but the fact reamins that 90% of franchise QBs come from the 1sr rnd, and mainly from the top of it. If you don't believe me, go look at the list. It's called playing the odds, but oh I forgot, this fanbase is too chickenshit to take risks.

EDIT: We've all seen the list of QBs who won the SB, and where they were picked the numbers don't lie. The odds of finding a SB winning QB anywhere else, are hell of a lot worse that at the top of the 1st, and I want the best odds possible of landing that guy.

munkey
12-08-2008, 04:31 PM
90%? Where do you get that number from?

First round franchise QBs:
Big Ben, Peyton, Eli, Palmer, Cutler, Rivers, McNabb
Flacco, Ryan, Rodgers probably, but too soon to tell

Non first round franchise QBs:
Hasselbeck, Brady, Warner, Brees, Romo, Delhomme, Favre, Bulger

Even if you argue 1 or 2 or more of these players, the current result is still about 50-50.


But to get back on track, you have the arguments mixed up. You say that those who want to stick with Thigpen are too chicken shit to take a risk. And then you and a lot of other people talk about how first round picks are better % plays. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Thigpen supporters want to stick with Thigpen despite all the evidence that suggests a first round pick is a safer play, how does that equate to being chicken shit? The riskier proposition, to me, is to put the keys to the franchise in the hands of a 7th round pick. Given that most teams try to solve their QB problems through a first round QB, that to me seems to be the extremely conservative proposition. Does that make you chicken shit for not wanting to take a chance on a 7th rounder? I'm not asking that to be a dick. The argument just doesn't make sense to me and I've heard it so many times.

And another argument correction: to those who say "those who don't want to draft a first round pick don't want to do it because we've never done it before." We've also never groomed a 7th round pick QB and we've rarely ever groomed a young QB... PERIOD.

It would be very, very, very difficult to make a compelling argument that those who support Thigpen do so because they're afraid of change and afraid of risk. It's the exact opposite.

OK....now I feel REALLY OLD....thanks

Lets go scouting...

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 04:34 PM
His accuracy scares me too. But keep in mind that accuracy is not the only component of a QB. While Cutler can put the ball on a rope better than Thigpen, Thigpen has the kind of mobility that guys like Cutler and Brady can never have. That gives a coaching staff a lot more options in their ability to bootleg him out, have him throw on the run, etc....

That's one of the reasons why I'm particularly intrigued with Thigpen. I realize he has flaws in his game right now, but those who discredit him for his accuracy are assuming that the only kind of passer in the NFL is a pure pocket passer. It's rare to find a QB who is an outstanding runner but also an accomplished passer. If Thigpen can continue to improve his passing ability, his ability as a dual threat becomes all the more dangerous. Big Ben and Romo are not particularly accurate QBs, but they're extremely elusive.

Vick and Young could have been ultra-dangerous QBs if they could have just learned how to throw the ball. Thigpen is more advanced than those two players are. That's a big reason why I think he has a much higher ceiling than some people give him credit for.



I think I'd give Thigpen a shot next year, but his accuracy terrifies me.

I seriously doubt that he'll ever be able to throw that fade to the corner of the end zone (and the fact that this was the playcall on 3rd and goal further emphasizes our playcalling problems). His 'throw' to Gonzo on the first down play makes his erratic arm even more apparent. Thigpen had 2 chances to tie that game with his arm, got down on himself and gave up on the 4th down play before anything had a chance to develop. With 2 putrid throws and a give up on 4th down, he really was awful on that final sequence.

He simply doesn't have the touch on deep balls and/or flag routes that a starting QB ought to have. He'll even misfire badly on 2/3 intermediate routes every game; that just can't happen. The throw that Cutler made to Marshall, Thigpen couldn't have made on his best day.

Accuracy can improve, but it doesn't just appear from nothing. At this point, Thigpen misses wide open recievers when he has his feet set, that's a pretty serious handicap. To quantify it, many NFL QBs have gone from a 7 to a 9 on the accuracy scale, very few have made it from 5 to 9. Most of these high INT rookies referenced in this thread simply made poor decisions; that corrects itself with time. Thigpen, as often as not, will make the right decision and just make a poor throw.

I'd give him 1 year with a new QB coach to prove me wrong, but I'd have a quick hook.

alanm
12-08-2008, 04:45 PM
Stockholm Syndrome.ROFL

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 04:46 PM
90%? Where do you get that number from?

First round franchise QBs:
Big Ben, Peyton, Eli, Palmer, Cutler, Rivers, McNabb
Flacco, Ryan, Rodgers probably, but too soon to tell

Non first round franchise QBs:
Hasselbeck, Brady, Warner, Brees, Romo, Delhomme, Favre, Bulger

Even if you argue 1 or 2 or more of these players, the current result is still about 50-50.


But to get back on track, you have the arguments mixed up. You say that those who want to stick with Thigpen are too chicken shit to take a risk. And then you and a lot of other people talk about how first round picks are better % plays. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Thigpen supporters want to stick with Thigpen despite all the evidence that suggests a first round pick is a safer play, how does that equate to being chicken shit? The riskier proposition, to me, is to put the keys to the franchise in the hands of a 7th round pick. Given that most teams try to solve their QB problems through a first round QB, that to me seems to be the extremely conservative proposition. Does that make you chicken shit for not wanting to take a chance on a 7th rounder? I'm not asking that to be a dick. The argument just doesn't make sense to me and I've heard it so many times.

And another argument correction: to those who say "those who don't want to draft a first round pick don't want to do it because we've never done it before." We've also never groomed a 7th round pick QB and we've rarely ever groomed a young QB... PERIOD.

It would be very, very, very difficult to make a compelling argument that those who support Thigpen do so because they're afraid of change and afraid of risk. It's the exact opposite.

I judge a franchise QB differently than most. Some people think that if a guy is an entrenched starter he's a franchise guy, and maybe they're right.

What I should have said, and meant to say with that # was SB winning QBs.

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 04:50 PM
But you've still got me twisted. I say you take Stafford, or Bradford IF THEY'RE THERE.

You'd be a fool not to. Thigpen remains the starter, and gets the chance to prove he's the man. If he does, You've got your man. I didn't say there was no chance of him being the guy. Hell, I believe he just might be able to pull it off, but you don't pass on Stafford, just in case, because you can get good value for him, if it turns out you don't need him.

Edit: Going back, and reading my posts, I think I made it clear that you stick with Thigpen. What's with the reading comprehension around here?

beach tribe
12-08-2008, 04:52 PM
And now, a Moment Of Reality:

You are a fan.
I am a fan.
You and I will be taking NO risks, and more to the point; you and I will not be deciding SHIT about this Franchise.

Thank you, that is all.

You know what I mean.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 04:54 PM
But you've still got me twisted. I say you take Stafford IF HE'S THERE.

You'd be a fool not to. Thigpen remains the starter, and gets the chance to prove he's the man. If he does, You've got your man. I didn't say there was no chance of him being the guy. Hell, I believe he just might be able to pull it off, but you don't pass on Stafford, just in case, because you can get good value for him, if it turns out you don't need him.

I'm not a huge Stafford fan, but I don't have a problem with the Chiefs taking him.

I think a lot of people have been lumping Bradford into the argument and I'm just not convinced about him. The Chiefs need to bring in some quality insurance, but I think there are some that believe that only a first round QB will do. To me, Stafford is the only QB in this draft who even borders on can't-miss potential.

alanm
12-08-2008, 04:57 PM
again, we were competitive with him at the helm..that's the closest we've come to winning there in eight years..he drove them dowm within a yard of tying the game, after a penalty...i'm impressed with his confidence and ability to shake off the negatives..he's going through the growing pains of a young team and is making plays and gaining the trust of those around him.
And that's all you can ask for. Hell he's basically a rookie. Still a pup at 24.

MikeMaslowski
12-08-2008, 05:00 PM
For Herm to keep his job after next season he will have to draft a first round QB. (Depending on TT) After all he had all season to evaluate Thiggys talent. If he goes with him and he flops it will be Herms fault. If however he takes the draft a high QB road then he is safe. If the QB flops then at least he tried to boost the franchise. If he does ok then it gives Herm another season to develop the youngster.

I personally would like to see us pick up a pure pass rusher or figure out the LB situation...

DJ's left nut
12-08-2008, 05:17 PM
His accuracy scares me too. But keep in mind that accuracy is not the only component of a QB. While Cutler can put the ball on a rope better than Thigpen, Thigpen has the kind of mobility that guys like Cutler and Brady can never have. That gives a coaching staff a lot more options in their ability to bootleg him out, have him throw on the run, etc....

That's one of the reasons why I'm particularly intrigued with Thigpen. I realize he has flaws in his game right now, but those who discredit him for his accuracy are assuming that the only kind of passer in the NFL is a pure pocket passer. It's rare to find a QB who is an outstanding runner but also an accomplished passer. If Thigpen can continue to improve his passing ability, his ability as a dual threat becomes all the more dangerous. Big Ben and Romo are not particularly accurate QBs, but they're extremely elusive.

Vick and Young could have been ultra-dangerous QBs if they could have just learned how to throw the ball. Thigpen is more advanced than those two players are. That's a big reason why I think he has a much higher ceiling than some people give him credit for.

The ratio of 'mobile' SB winning QBs to 'accurate' SB winning QBs is so one-sided that I have to think there is a causal connection in there somewhere. Hell, I'll even look beyond SB winners to mere pro-bowlers. It's just not even close.

Mobility is a tie breaker at best, IMO. It what can make a QB go from good to great. Accuracy is absolutely, without question, the most important thing in an NFL QB. Mobility sits there with arm strength as something that is nice, but hardly necessary.

How many SBs did Mike Vick, Vince Young, Randall Cunningham, Fran Tarkenton....or any other scrambing QBs in the NFL ever win? The most mobile SB winning QB was Steve Young, who was arguably also the most accurate QB of the modern era.

Accuracy is what counts. If you don't have it, I don't care how mobile you are.

chiefzilla1501
12-08-2008, 06:00 PM
I never said there was any value in a mobile QB. I said there is tremendous value in a QB that can both run and pass well. Vick and Young were outstanding runners, but they were horrendous passers.

Big Ben is a QB who throws a decent ball, but nothing outstanding. But he is incredibly elusive. He's a pretty good QB who, by the way, is outstanding at moving his feet around. This is an entirely different mold of QB than a Vick/Young QB. This is a QB who wants to pass first, pass second, and usually uses his mobility to buy more time to throw the ball. Big Ben is not an overly accurate QB, but he buys a ridiculous amount of time because he's so impossible to tackle in the backfield.

Thigpen reminds me a lot of Big Ben. I've seen few plays where he has tried to tuck the ball and run as a last resort. He is usually looking to throw the ball. There are few players who have been able to provide a strong dual threat that Big Ben does. Thigpen's ability to run is not a huge strength in itself, but it's a huge strength if taht can be bundled with pretty good passing ability.


The ratio of 'mobile' SB winning QBs to 'accurate' SB winning QBs is so one-sided that I have to think there is a causal connection in there somewhere. Hell, I'll even look beyond SB winners to mere pro-bowlers. It's just not even close.

Mobility is a tie breaker at best, IMO. It what can make a QB go from good to great. Accuracy is absolutely, without question, the most important thing in an NFL QB. Mobility sits there with arm strength as something that is nice, but hardly necessary.

How many SBs did Mike Vick, Vince Young, Randall Cunningham, Fran Tarkenton....or any other scrambing QBs in the NFL ever win? The most mobile SB winning QB was Steve Young, who was arguably also the most accurate QB of the modern era.

Accuracy is what counts. If you don't have it, I don't care how mobile you are.

KChiefs1
12-08-2008, 06:09 PM
Round 1: DE/LB
Round 2: OL
Round 3: QB

DJ's left nut
12-08-2008, 06:15 PM
Thigpen's ability to run is not a huge strength in itself, but it's a huge strength if taht can be bundled with pretty good passing ability.

Then this is where we part ways.

I simply don't have much confidence him Thigpen's ability to develop 'pretty good passing ability' at least in relation to other NFL QBs.

Yes, he'll be able to throw a ball through a swinging tire more often than anyone I'll ever meet in my life, but I don't ever imagine he'll be even in the top 1/3 of the NFL in accuracy or yards per attempt due to his erratic arm (and the fact that he seems flat out bad on deep routes...something that doesn't really improve much). His accuracy on intermediate routes is as bad as anyone I've seen in the league this year. Somebody mentioned the TD to Gonzo, oh c'mon, that's a college level pass. He hit a massive target on an out route, it wasn't a difficult throw by NFL standards at all.

Having a mid-tier QB simply doesn't do much for me. As has already been stated in this thread, he's someone you keep around until you can replace him. His only hope is to show much improved accuracy. I'm willing to give him that chance next season, but I don't hold out much hope.

I want to like the kid, but I just don't see it happening.