The Salvation Market

[SHTSPRAYER]

Millions of people will be sitting in church pews over the next week. And many of them will be thinking about divine matters. But for those of you who find your mind drifting during the Sunday school's re-enactment of the nativity scene, I can offer something to ponder: the economics of religion.

Granted, there's nothing new about economists arguing that people respond to economic incentives--to costs and benefits--in religious matters as well as secular ones. However, when this analytical grid is placed over some great religious controversies, intriguing findings follow. Take one of Christianity's great battles: the Roman Catholic Church versus the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. I promise that even a little dip into The Marketplace of Christianity by Robert Ekelund Jr., Robert Hebert and Robert Tollison (hereafter EHT) will give you plenty of new insights.

Christianity became entrenched in the 4th century after Constantine gave it political and legal status. Fast-forward six centuries when the Roman Catholic Church had so extended and consolidated its market power that it became a sort of supranational government. More important, as EHT describe it, this medieval Church had become a monopolistic, bureaucratic firm engaged in rent-seeking.

Rent-seeking is key. (In economics, rent-seeking means using the political or bureaucratic process to secure economic advantage.) Indulgences and matrimonial dispensations are two powerful examples. Consider:

The chief product offered by the Roman Church was eternal salvation. But salvation wasn't assured by simple faith. Instead, salvation could be secured with the purchase of an indulgence. Indulgences, which were granted by the Pope, allowed the purchaser to reduce time spent in purgatory.

Sinners could buy a cheap pardon for 40 days or, if the situation and income merited, an expensive pardon for the reduction of hundreds of years. The selling of indulgences was an enormous revenue raiser for the Church (and so onerous that it drove Martin Luther into a frenzy.)

The Church was just as single-minded in its approach to extracting rents from the marriage market. As EHT observe, creating a dynastic family was a major way for people to accumulate wealth. So lots of marriages were among kinsfolk. But these marriages were governed by regulations on just how close the kinship ties could be--regulations that covered the gamut from siblings to seventh cousins.




http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/12/18/christianity-market-rents-oped-cx_sl_1219lee.html

[petegz28]

Amazing isn't it? I often ask, particularly of my catholic friends" why they spend so much money building a fancy church as opposed to a more humble facility and use the money to help those who need help?

Typically the answer I get is, "you have to build a place worthy of God". Which is hooey of course.

Seems to me that God, as I understand him\her\it from a Christian perspective would be more peeved about a fancy, multi-million $ church than if you pitched a tent and had your service?

After all, WTF could we possibly build that would ever be worthy of God? I thought we served God by serving each other? Not scamming the people out of millions and millions of $'s for the vanity of the church?

[SHTSPRAYER]

CONT:

In short, as a rent-seeking monopoly, the Roman Catholic Church was superb. Monopolies, however, are difficult to maintain. Not only do they require some political and/or military muscle but the more successful they are in amassing economic surplus, the greater the incentive for rival firms to invade their markets.

And when the Roman Church's rent extraction in the dispensation of salvation and the administration of justice went too far--when it wildly overcharged for these services--disaster followed. Adherents went over to its rival, Protestantism, which was a lower-cost dispenser of religious services; and, for their part, civil authorities were happy to find a new, cheaper provider of legal services.

There's no question that Protestantism offered a much lower-cost way to salvation. Indeed, salvation was a matter of faith, not purchase, and faith was a gift from God. No expensive indulgences necessary. Protestantism also lowered costs by offering freedom from regulations and rules. No more costly and time-consuming ceremonies like feast days, or pricey clerical vestments and church decorations, or money-eating cathedrals, or the maintenance of a giant priestly bureaucracy.

Simply put, the success of the Reformation was insured by the Roman Catholic Church's relentless pursuit of rents, which raised the price of the Church relative to Protestant churches. Or, as EHT observe: the Reformation "…amounted to a massive tax cut in terms of money and time committed to salvation-seeking.”

And here's one final thing to think about during the nativity re-enactment.

Christianity is a type of credence good. Its utility is pretty much impossible to assess--both before and after consumption. Since its major product is salvation, or a heavenly life-after-death, consumers must purchase this good on faith and without a guarantee the good will be delivered. This lack of verifiability prompts EHT to call Christianity a meta-credence good.

This sounds about right to me: You can't even return to earth to demand a refund if you end up in, um, hell.

[Brock]

Amazing isn't it? I often ask, particularly of my catholic friends" why they spend so much money building a fancy church as opposed to a more humble facility and use the money to help those who need help?

That isn't unique to the Catholic church.

[petegz28]

That isn't unique to the Catholic church.

I agree. Jsut generally speaking in my exerience anway, the overall number of catholic churches seem to be more elaborate than some of the rinky-dink baptist or other sect's church. But I will agree that other sects are no less guilty. And since most of my friends\family or catholic ....

But there are several Protestant(?) churches that are no less guilty around my area too.

[Jenson71]

Amazing isn't it? I often ask, particularly of my catholic friends" why they spend so much money building a fancy church as opposed to a more humble facility and use the money to help those who need help?

Typically the answer I get is, "you have to build a place worthy of God". Which is hooey of course.

Seems to me that God, as I understand him\her\it from a Christian perspective would be more peeved about a fancy, multi-million $ church than if you pitched a tent and had your service?

After all, WTF could we possibly build that would ever be worthy of God? I thought we served God by serving each other? Not scamming the people out of millions and millions of $'s for the vanity of the church?

You're just the gift that keeps on giving.

[petegz28]

You're just the gift that keeps on giving.

Is there a point here?

[Baby Lee]

Might I recommend 'Pillars of the Earth.'

[DaFace]

Amazing isn't it? I often ask, particularly of my catholic friends" why they spend so much money building a fancy church as opposed to a more humble facility and use the money to help those who need help?

Typically the answer I get is, "you have to build a place worthy of God". Which is hooey of course.

Seems to me that God, as I understand him\her\it from a Christian perspective would be more peeved about a fancy, multi-million $ church than if you pitched a tent and had your service?

After all, WTF could we possibly build that would ever be worthy of God? I thought we served God by serving each other? Not scamming the people out of millions and millions of $'s for the vanity of the church?

Neither my wife nor myself are particularly religious people, but she's much more spiritual than I am by far. She's near rabid when it comes to modern-day churches and how extravagant they are. She seems to feel about the same way you do.

The odd thing for me is that I feel the same way when it comes to modern-day churches, yet I love the architecture of old churches in Europe that were as extravagant for their time, if not more so, than today's churches.

[jidar]

Watching religious people bicker over their religions is like watching the Raiders playing the Broncos.

[petegz28]

Neither my wife nor myself are particularly religious people, but she's much more spiritual than I am by far. She's near rabid when it comes to modern-day churches and how extravagant they are. She seems to feel about the same way you do.

The odd thing for me is that I feel the same way when it comes to modern-day churches, yet I love the architecture of old churches in Europe that were as extravagant for their time, if not more so, than today's churches.

It just baffles me how some think they can buy their way to "heaven".

For example, when someone spends a ton of $'s to donate a statue of Mary, for example, to a church as opposed to donating to a charity in the name of the church.

To each their own I guess. :shrug:

[Cannibal]

Amazing isn't it? I often ask, particularly of my catholic friends" why they spend so much money building a fancy church as opposed to a more humble facility and use the money to help those who need help?

Typically the answer I get is, "you have to build a place worthy of God". Which is hooey of course.

Seems to me that God, as I understand him\her\it from a Christian perspective would be more peeved about a fancy, multi-million $ church than if you pitched a tent and had your service?

After all, WTF could we possibly build that would ever be worthy of God? I thought we served God by serving each other? Not scamming the people out of millions and millions of $'s for the vanity of the church?

Out of the 10 or so c()nt like attention grabbing posts of yours I've read the past couple of days, this is the one, and the only one I agree with. :thumb:

[Iowanian]

Peace be with you.

Merry Christmas from a member of the largest private charity organization on earth.

[Iowanian]

There is some serious mis-information blowing in the winter wind.

[VAChief]

Might I recommend 'Pillars of the Earth.'

Great book!

[Logical]

Anyone who thinks millions were not spent on those old catholic churchs spent no time in Holy Cross, Saint Francis Xavier, Redempterist and Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception among others.

[ClevelandBronco]

Amazing isn't it? I often ask, particularly of my catholic friends" why they spend so much money building a fancy church as opposed to a more humble facility and use the money to help those who need help?

And sometimes I wonder who really needs the help more. Is it the rich man or the poor man?

The sermon on the mount might give us some insight.

The wealthy man who questioned Jesus might give us a clue as well.

I know I'm lost because I believe. It's difficult to see far beyond that.

[GoChiefs]

This is one of the things I always respected about Jehovah's Witnesses. Most Kingdom Halls (lawl) are very conservative. Hell, no windows! No shit on the walls. Maybe a cheap painting. That's it.

[SHTSPRAYER]

I think in medieval times, the church was the main employer. Entire towns and even cities emerged around the building of a church.

This is interesting; Herod's Temple truly must have been a thing to behold:

http://www.intercontinentalcog.org/ICG_Galleries/photogallery33.shtml

[Adept Havelock]

Watching religious people bicker over their religions is like watching the Raiders playing the Broncos.

Augustine takes the handoff, and is met by Martin Luther in the hole! 1 yard loss on the play.

Wait...there's a flag on the play. Personal Foul on Leo X for illegal use of indulgences to overturn penalties not yet committed. 15 yards and loss of down.

[Stewie]

I've always thought the big churches were nothing but self-centered interests at work. It has nothing to do with serving God, but massaging egos.

A co-worker of mine was a contributor to the building of the St. Thomas Aquinas school at 114th and Pflumm. About 1/2 way through the construction he cut off his funds due to the fact that they kept asking for more and more crap to be added that had nothing to do with school/religion/church, but more for the "look at us" factor. It's all a waste of money, time, and resources. In fact, it's BS.

What's the difference between the man who prays in church and the man who prays on the golf course?

The man on the golf course means it.

[stevieray]

the building is just that...a building..the Church is the souls inside....

[SHTSPRAYER]

I've always thought the big churches were nothing but self-centered interests at work. It has nothing to do with serving God, but massaging egos.

A co-worker of mine was a contributor to the building of the St. Thomas Aquinas school at 114th and Pflumm. About 1/2 way through the construction he cut off his funds due to the fact that they kept asking for more and more crap to be added that had nothing to do with school/religion/church, but more for the "look at us" factor. It's all a waste of money, time, and resources. In fact, it's BS.

What's the difference between the man who prays in church and the man who prays on the golf course?

The man on the golf course means it.

So...

The more spartan, the more holy?

[whoman69]

I will agree that the Catholic church is not the only group that has been overextravagant in their churches. Televangelists IMO are the most guilty. Its all glitter to them, big business.

In the past the Catholic churches excesses have bitten them in the butt. Legend has it the reason that their priest were not allowed to marry is that married priest would leave their properties to their sons, thus depriving the church of their lands.

[bango]

And sometimes I wonder who really needs the help more. Is it the rich man or the poor man?

The sermon on the mount might give us some insight.

The wealthy man who questioned Jesus might give us a clue as well.

I know I'm lost because I believe. It's difficult to see far beyond that.

You are onto something. How many times did Jesus discuss how wealth was a roadblock to Heaven? It does not just have to be wealth. It can be anything that one consumes themself with. Wealth is just a great example of one of the major issues that one may have.

[petegz28]

Peace be with you.

Merry Christmas from a member of the largest private charity organization on earth.

Sorry if you are catholic and took offense. I did not mean to single out catholicism and I know it came off that way.

Also in fairness I do not want to discount the good the PEOPLE of the church do for others.

[patteeu]

Interesting OP, SHTSPRAYER. :thumb:

[Extra Point]

This is one of the things I always respected about Jehovah's Witnesses. Most Kingdom Halls (lawl) are very conservative. Hell, no windows! No shit on the walls. Maybe a cheap painting. That's it.


It's all in gas-money, shoe leather, the AWAKEs, and WATCHTOWERs.

[Iowanian]

I did not mean to single out catholicism and I know it came off that way.
.

Actually, you did. Just like all the other regular Catholic bashers, who overlook the multi-million dollar non-denominational megachurches with built in movie theaters, concert halls etc....


and whoman...the reason priests don't marry, is because they've devoted their lives to service to the lord, and are "married" to the church and God.

[Iowanian]

Would any of you wager if there are more Catholics/Christians serving the poorest and most needy people in all corners of the world or Athiests?

Who is putting their money where their mouth is on that front?

Which group typically risks its neck to feed, cloth, educate and medicate the most in need of the world? Who has the largest presence in Sudan?

[petegz28]

Actually, you did. Just like all the other regular Catholic bashers, who overlook the multi-million dollar non-denominational megachurches with built in movie theaters, concert halls etc....


and whoman...the reason priests don't marry, is because they've devoted their lives to service to the lord, and are "married" to the church and God.

Ok well then take offense. I tried to aplogize to you but ok. :evil:

[whoman69]

Actually, you did. Just like all the other regular Catholic bashers, who overlook the multi-million dollar non-denominational megachurches with built in movie theaters, concert halls etc....


and whoman...the reason priests don't marry, is because they've devoted their lives to service to the lord, and are "married" to the church and God.

I don't want to blast on a decision made by the church a thousand years ago, but priest were not always not allowed to marry. Its only after they started giving away church property that a change was made. Ofttimes things which seem steeped in ceremony today came about from practical concerns, like meatless Fridays coming from a meat shortage.

[Iowanian]

or traditions of Fasting...but whatever floats your boat.


I'm obviously not responsible for decisions made ten or twelve centuries ago, and I don't agree with everything the church says or does, but it does get old, repeatedly reading and hearing the bashing from non-Catholics.

Its almost as ironic as the women who say "Oh God" during sex, or the Aethists who use the Lord's name in vein in thread starters here, or people who get "offended" hearing or seeing something at Christmas time, like the word Christmas....who don't even believe in it in the first place.

[tooge]

or traditions of Fasting...but whatever floats your boat.


I'm obviously not responsible for decisions made ten or twelve centuries ago, and I don't agree with everything the church says or does, but it does get old, repeatedly reading and hearing the bashing from non-Catholics.

Its almost as ironic as the women who say "Oh God" during sex, or the Aethists who use the Lord's name in vein in thread starters here, or people who get "offended" hearing or seeing something at Christmas time, like the word Christmas....who don't even believe in it in the first place.

easy there mr. sensitive. I think the general idea of the discussion isn't "you catholics are all self righteous idiots". Rather, the original poster, and then a few others have simply stated what many (myself included) find odd about church in general, and particularly the catholic church. That is, that if you are ultra spiritual at home, and lead a good life and serve the lord, but fail to go to church and give up the 10%, then you are going to hell, or purgitory. that you are therefore somewhat less in favor in the eyes of the lord. Well, if tything makes you feel better, great for you. If building huge churches makes you feel better, great for you. The catholic church and all others do a great service to different charities, and for that they should be applauded. But don't try to act better for it. I give quite a bit of money to charity and it is not through church. Is that any less valid? I think that is the point of those you are arguing with.

[Jenson71]

easy there mr. sensitive. I think the general idea of the discussion isn't "you catholics are all self righteous idiots". Rather, the original poster, and then a few others have simply stated what many (myself included) find odd about church in general, and particularly the catholic church. That is, that if you are ultra spiritual at home, and lead a good life and serve the lord, but fail to go to church and give up the 10%, then you are going to hell, or purgitory. that you are therefore somewhat less in favor in the eyes of the lord. Well, if tything makes you feel better, great for you. If building huge churches makes you feel better, great for you. The catholic church and all others do a great service to different charities, and for that they should be applauded. But don't try to act better for it. I give quite a bit of money to charity and it is not through church. Is that any less valid? I think that is the point of those you are arguing with.

Nobody has said here that not going to Church is going to send you to Hell. And Catholics believe that all of us are going to Purgatory, to be cleansed of our sins before entering Heaven to be with God and all the Saints.

Building beautiful churches is not to make us feel better. That's entirely opposite of the point. It's not for our glory. It's not for our egos. It has everything to do with using our human talents, what God gave us, to build a place that can best honor God.

Communities and individuals spending their resources, time, and money to honor God? There was a time when people thought that was necessary and good.

[InChiefsHell]

I don't want to blast on a decision made by the church a thousand years ago, but priest were not always not allowed to marry. Its only after they started giving away church property that a change was made. Ofttimes things which seem steeped in ceremony today came about from practical concerns, like meatless Fridays coming from a meat shortage.

FWIW, I don't believe the prohibition of marriage happened for those reasons...(and by the way, there are married Catholic Priests in the world, in the Eastern Rites, but that's neither here nor there...) I was taught that the church basically found that having Priests who were married led to priests who had a lot of money and a lot of power, and the people they were serving were not happy with this. Being a Priest became a political thing. The lay person preferred the priests from the monestaries, because they had taken vows of chastity and poverty...basically they were not in the priest game for personal gain.

...or something like that. Always remember, there is a difference between Practices and Doctrines...practices like meatless Fridays, color of vestments (clothes for the priest) etc are practices, they can change at any time.

[tooge]

Nobody has said here that not going to Church is going to send you to Hell. And Catholics believe that all of us are going to Purgatory, to be cleansed of our sins before entering Heaven to be with God and all the Saints.

Building beautiful churches is not to make us feel better. That's entirely opposite of the point. It's not for our glory. It's not for our egos. It has everything to do with using our human talents, what God gave us, to build a place that can best honor God.

Communities and individuals spending their resources, time, and money to honor God? There was a time when people thought that was necessary and good.

It is wonderful to honor God. Wouldn't God rather see you gather in a tent with your community to worhip and use all the money you tythe to even further the charity causes that you champion?

[InChiefsHell]

Regarding nice buildings, it seems God Himself was down with that when Salomon built his temple...in fact IIRC most church buildings were to be made as nice as was possible. Do some churches go overboard...I'm not sure that's possible, though I understand the argument against it. "That money could go towards the poor...". Jesus Himself even said not to be angry with the woman for using expensive perfume on His feet, because the poor with be with us always...

...there is no amount of cheep churches that could save the poor from their lot. And as Iowanian said, the RCC is the worlds largest charity...we give plenty to the world's poor, nothing wrong with building a beautiful place to worship.

[patteeu]

easy there mr. sensitive. I think the general idea of the discussion isn't "you catholics are all self righteous idiots". Rather, the original poster, and then a few others have simply stated what many (myself included) find odd about church in general, and particularly the catholic church. That is, that if you are ultra spiritual at home, and lead a good life and serve the lord, but fail to go to church and give up the 10%, then you are going to hell, or purgitory. that you are therefore somewhat less in favor in the eyes of the lord. Well, if tything makes you feel better, great for you. If building huge churches makes you feel better, great for you. The catholic church and all others do a great service to different charities, and for that they should be applauded. But don't try to act better for it. I give quite a bit of money to charity and it is not through church. Is that any less valid? I think that is the point of those you are arguing with.

FWIW, I think the original poster is a Catholic.

[patteeu]

It is wonderful to honor God. Wouldn't God rather see you gather in a tent with your community to worhip and use all the money you tythe to even further the charity causes that you champion?

Wouldn't God rather see you build a house of worship that attracts the interest of people who need to be saved instead of worshiping in an off-putting, rundown shack? As desirable as it is to put food in the mouths of the hungry, the first job of the Church is to save souls.

Your last post seemed somewhat conciliatory even if it seemed clumsy and unintentionally offensive (as in the incorrect suggestion that the Catholic Church tells people they will go to hell if they don't tithe), but here you seem to want to push buttons in a passive aggressive manner.

[tooge]

Wouldn't God rather see you build a house of worship that attracts the interest of people who need to be saved instead of worshiping in an off-putting, rundown shack? As desirable as it is to put food in the mouths of the hungry, the first job of the Church is to save souls.

Your last post seemed somewhat conciliatory even if it seemed clumsy and unintentionally offensive (as in the incorrect suggestion that the Catholic Church tells people they will go to hell if they don't tithe), but here you seem to want to push buttons in a passive aggressive manner.

this isn't a composition class. Nor is it a lesson in debate. I was simply trying to put forth my opinion of what petegz and whoman were trying to say. In fact, I do go to church. I don't contribute money to the church regularly, but again, if a person does, and it makes them feel better, then great for them. I found it very interesting that the OP contained information that seemed to support petegz even if indirectly. I certainly wouldn't want to ever enter into a debate about religion as there can not be a clear winner as there are very few provable points on most issues. Hopefully this explanation isn't too clumsy for you.

[Jenson71]

It is wonderful to honor God. Wouldn't God rather see you gather in a tent with your community to worhip and use all the money you tythe to even further the charity causes that you champion?

Isn't it great you can do both (having the world's largest charity, and the world's most beautiful churches honoring God)?

[Sully]

Augustine takes the handoff, and is met by Martin Luther in the hole! 1 yard loss on the play.

Wait...there's a flag on the play. Personal Foul on Leo X for illegal use of indulgences to overturn penalties not yet committed. 15 yards and loss of down.

KEEP FUCKING DOUBTING ULRICH ZWINGLI!!!!!!

[SHTSPRAYER]

It's all in gas-money, shoe leather, the AWAKEs, and WATCHTOWERs.

They spend alot of money to ship those printouts all over the USA.

[Iowanian]

It is wonderful to honor God. Wouldn't God rather see you gather in a tent with your community to worhip and use all the money you tythe to even further the charity causes that you champion?


Jonas Nightingail didn't do it for me I guess.

[Adept Havelock]

Jonas Nightingail didn't do it for me I guess.

LMAO Great movie. :thumb:

[SHTSPRAYER]

FWIW, I think the original poster is a Catholic.

That is correct. ;)

I thought it was an intersting read. Catholic bashing doesn't bother me, as a matter of fact, it strengthens my convictions.

Like Jesus said "you point out the splinter in your neighbors eye, but cannot see the plank in your own eye".

[SHTSPRAYER]

It is wonderful to honor God. Wouldn't God rather see you gather in a tent with your community to worhip and use all the money you tythe to even further the charity causes that you champion?

Do you think Barack Obama would have joined Rev Wright's congregation if the sunday service was in a "tent"? Better yet, do you think B.O. would have "tythed" $25 K to ol' Rev Wright if the service was in a tent?

[Jilly]

I think this article proves different in a country where separation of church and state exists. The history of Christianity being tied to money has more to do with gov't then anything else in an ancient Roman society. Leaders of the church were in charge of Gov't or let's just say they had much influence over it...and so money had more to do with making sure the right religious leaders stayed in power.

But Today - in our country, I think there is a vast difference between the money the RC church spends on buildlings and the money Protestant churches spend on buildings. I believe the RC church is simply continuing a great tradition of developing sacred spaces in which to worship, the more ornate, the more sacred and there are some gorgeous spaces and they truly do lend themselves to a reverence and recognition of the Holy...much more so then walking into a 8000 square foot gym with theatrical lighting on a stage set with drums and mics. Protestant churches with multi million dollar buildings - six flags over Jesus - is what I tend to call them, do it, not so much for a worship of God but to attract a secular society...because their worldview is not so much about charity, but about saving souls....getting them there no matter what the cost.

[petegz28]

I think this article proves different in a country where separation of church and state exists. The history of Christianity being tied to money has more to do with gov't then anything else in an ancient Roman society. Leaders of the church were in charge of Gov't or let's just say they had much influence over it...and so money had more to do with making sure the right religious leaders stayed in power.

But Today - in our country, I think there is a vast difference between the money the RC church spends on buildlings and the money Protestant churches spend on buildings. I believe the RC church is simply continuing a great tradition of developing sacred spaces in which to worship, the more ornate, the more sacred and there are some gorgeous spaces and they truly do lend themselves to a reverence and recognition of the Holy...much more so then walking into a 8000 square foot gym with theatrical lighting on a stage set with drums and mics. Protestant churches with multi million dollar buildings - six flags over Jesus - is what I tend to call them, do it, not so much for a worship of God but to attract a secular society...because their worldview is not so much about charity, but about saving souls....getting them there no matter what the cost.

Six Flags Over Jesus!! ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

Oh man , that is just too funny!