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Tribal Warfare
12-19-2008, 06:16 PM
Is Thiggy The Future? (http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/is-thiggy-the-future.html)
December 19, 2008 - Bob Gretz |

Will the Chiefs get Thiggy With It come the 2009 season?

Or are we seeing the last starts of Tyler Thigpenís brief career as the No. 1 man in Kansas City?

Thatís just one of the many questions awaiting the teamís new general manager when he comes on board. Over and above whether or not the Chiefs should use their high draft status to take a quarterback early in the Ď09 NFL Draft is this question: does Thigpen have the stuff to be a productive and winning quarterback in this league?

Right now, the results are mixed. Thereís no question that Thigpen has made remarkable progress this season. Thereís also no question heís shown the ability to do many of the things required of a competent and productive starting quarterback.

His problem is that his team has not been successful. Itís unfortunate that these kind of stats land only on the plate of the quarterback, but thatís a fact of NFL life. Thigpen makes his 10th NFL start on Sunday against Miami. The Chiefs are 1-8 in the previous nine games. Obviously, thatís not good.

Itís also not good how the Chiefs have gotten to that 1-8 record with Thigpen at the helm. Theyíve had strong first half performances and poor second half production, especially the third quarter. There are reasons for the third quarter blues and you can read about them right here in a piece I wrote for kcchiefs.com.

But thereís another factor in the Chiefs inability to close the deal in these games, and thatís Thigpen.

Track his numbers through each quarter this season and itís a steady spiral downward in production and efficiency. Before we go further, here are the important numbers.
<table style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0"><tbody><tr style="background: black none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><td style="border-style: solid none solid solid; border-color: rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: 1pt medium 1pt 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> Quarter</td> <td style="border-style: solid none; border-color: rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> Passer

Rating
</td> <td style="border-style: solid none; border-color: rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> Comp.

%
</td> <td style="border-style: solid none; border-color: rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;">
TDs
</td> <td style="border-style: solid none; border-color: rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;">
INTs
</td> <td style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> Avg. Yrds/

Attempt
</td> </tr> <tr style="background: silver none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <td style="border-style: none none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;">First</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 108.5
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 65.7
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 4
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 0
</td> <td style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 7.63
</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-style: none none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;">Second</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 76.7
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 54
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 7
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 5
</td> <td style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 6.50
</td> </tr> <tr style="background: silver none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> <td style="border-style: none none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;">Third</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 70.9
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 55.1
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 1
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 1
</td> <td style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 5.76
</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border-style: none none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;">Fourth</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 62.8
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 51
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 3
</td> <td style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64); border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 3
</td> <td style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(64, 64, 64) rgb(64, 64, 64) -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding-left: 7px; padding-right: 7px;"> 4.97
</td></tr></tbody></table>

In the first quarter, Thigpenís passer rating of 108.5 ranks as the third best passer in the league, behind only Miamiís Chad Pennington (124.5) and Kyle Orton of Chicago (114.2).

But in the fourth quarter, Thigpenís rating falls all the way to 62.8, or more than 45 points. That ranks 28th in the league, well behind the NFL leader, Dallasí Tony Romo who has a 119.8 passer rating in the final period.

In the second quarter, Thigpen is 30th in the passer rating at 76.7 and in the third period heís 26th with his 70.9 rating.

The passer rating is a reflection of all the key statistics for a quarterback. Look at individual areas and the pattern with Thigpen is still there: fast starts, poor finishes.

Now, thatís not something that would seem unexpected for a young quarterback making his first nine NFL starts. Thatís especially true when you factor in how Thigpen came to have the starting job Ė with the top two quarterbacks losing their seasons to injuries Ė and the change in philosophy that has the Chiefs coaching staff making up this offense as they go along.

But compare Thigpenís passer ratings for each quarter to other quarterbacks also getting their first NFL starts in Ď08 and itís not a pretty picture. Here are the numbers
Quarter

Cassel

NE


Flacco

BAL


Rodgers

GBAY


Russell

OAK


Ryan

ATL


Thigpen

KC
First

91.7


67.4


91.4


79.1


103.4


108.5
Second

92.5


70.5


106.0


56.8


83.0


76.7
Third

89.8


82.1


86.5


72.3


79.4


70.9
Fourth

73.5


92.2


81.6


78.4


92.3


62.8

None of those inexperienced starters could match Thigpenís first-quarter play. All had four quarters that are better than Thigpenís play in the fourth quarter.

Look at the fourth quarter ratings for the two rookies: Flacco and Ryan. Both are a full 30 points better than Thigpen. Here are all the important numbers in the fourth quarter for all three quarterbacks:
Players

Passer

Rating


Comp

%




TDs




INTs


Avg. Yds/

Att.
Flacco

92.2


65.8


4


3


8.20
Ryan

92.3


60.0


4


1


7.33
Thigpen

62.8


51


3


3


4.97

Thereís no question that Flacco and Ryan play for better football teams than Thigpen does. Both Baltimore and Atlanta remain in the hunt for wildcard spots in the playoffs.

But are those teams there because of their quarterbacks, or have the quarterbacks benefitted from being on those teams?

That leads us to similar questions that will have to be answered about Thigpen. Is the downward spiral of his production from start to the finish of the game evidence of the lack of personnel around him? Does it come from his lack of experience? Or, is Thigpen not able to produce as the game goes along because he does not have skills required of a winning NFL quarterback.

Those questions make these final two games of the Ď08 season very important for Thigpen. He can reverse the trend and change the template that has developed in the last two months by producing in the second half of these games.

Flacco and Ryan may get the chance to prove themselves in the playoffs in January.

These next two games are Tyler Thigpenís playoffs.

Deberg_1990
12-19-2008, 06:18 PM
is Thigpen not able to produce as the game goes along because he does not have skills required of a winning NFL quarterback.




That

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2008, 06:23 PM
Great out of the gate, not much for stamina...

cdcox
12-19-2008, 06:45 PM
There’s no question that Thigpen has made remarkable progress this season.

I question this. We saw one terrible QB performance in the Atlanta game using a traditional pro set.

Out of the spread, he's done much better. But I don't see steady progression. He was surprisingly good in his first game out of the spread and has looked about the same since.

Did Thigpen magically get better between Atlanta and the latter games or was he basically that QB all along and just had a bad game in a set in which he was uncomfortable?

CoMoChief
12-19-2008, 06:54 PM
People here don't understand that it takes more than just one season to develope a QB

Croyle didn't work out so that set us back about a season if not more, and people here are antsy in their pantsy and want something now because they're not used to having a young QB and really it should be Croyles 3rd yr under center if all went to plan. Well it didn't and it backfired horribly and now were almost back to where we were last season except Thigpen actually showed some promise while playing, unlike Croyle, whos number of good passes can be counted on one hand.

He's gonna have ups and downs. But he's been the best QB so far since Green's been under center. He's done particularly well compared to most young QBs starting their first season.

Hell Eli sucked until just this last season, and to be honest isn't that great still IMO. His name gives him the recognition but really hes nothing more than a huge pussy. That team feeds off its defense and running game, something that Herm would kill for.

Give Thigpen a training camp and time to work with all WR's, give him a better Oline and another skilled positional weapon (WR). He can only get better. People think he's plateau'ing out are ****in morons. Christ he hasn't even played a full season under center yet and he's doing good for what he has to work with (horrid rt side Oline, poor running game). It takes time people.

****in christ.

cdcox
12-19-2008, 07:13 PM
People here don't understand that it takes more than just one season to develope a QB

Croyle didn't work out so that set us back about a season if not more, and people here are antsy in their pantsy and want something now because they're not used to having a young QB.

He's gonna have ups and downs. But he's been the best QB so far since Green's been under center. He's done particularly well compared to most young QBs starting their first season.

Hell Eli sucked until just this last season, and to be honest isn't that great still IMO. That team feeds off its defense and running game, something that Herm would kill for.

Give Thigpen a training camp and time to work with all WR's, give him a better Oline and another skilled positional weapon (WR). He can only get better. People think he's plateau'ing out are ****in morons. Christ he hasn't even played a full season under center yet and he's doing good for what he has to work with (horrid rt side Oline, poor running game). It takes time people.

****in christ.

There is a difference between saying he's plateaued out on one hand and that he hasn't improved that much this season on the other.

My position is that he might develop into a franchise QB, but that he probably won't. For one thing he doesn't fit any of the established patterns of QB development:

1) A guy that came out of nowhere, had IT from day one and lead a team to a SB (Brady, Warner).

2) A guy that has a raw something special from day one (almost always a high round draft choice) that takes a few years to develop into a true franchise QB. (Elway, Favre, the Mannings).

3) A raw guy that sits on the bench for a long time and slowly matures into a starter (Romo, Trent Green).

4) A star guy who does pretty darn good from day one (Marino, Roethlisberger)

He would be blazing the trail of being guy without phenominal physical tools, leadership skills, or knowledge of the position who comes out of no where, is thrust into the starter position before he's fully ready, and would survive all the pressures of being the starter while having these limitations, to develop into one of the league's best. I don't know of anyone who has taken that arc.

Mr. Laz
12-19-2008, 07:13 PM
i agree with como


(someone shoot me)



FFS Thigpen hasn't even had a REAL training camp yet

Mecca
12-19-2008, 07:16 PM
If you took Thigpen and put him back under center he'd probably look terrible would that then mean he's made no progress? Flipping up your offense to a college gimmick to make your QB look ok does not entail franchise guy.

Fruit Ninja
12-19-2008, 07:23 PM
Ryan and Rodgers were always the starters there. They were with the first team througout. Flacco and Cassel ran with the 2's and still got alot more then what Thigpen has.

He still has a way to go, but i want to see how he can do with a half decent oline. I dont know if we can judge him as the future yet. I want to see how he would from under center, but our right side of the Oline doesnt allow any QB to be successful as they suck that bad.


Anyways, whatever happens, i hope its the right choice.

Chief77
12-19-2008, 07:50 PM
I wish we could see more plays in the traditional behind center set up. If Thiggy has progressed any, he shoud be able to play better now than he did in Atlanta behind center.

ChiefsCountry
12-19-2008, 07:51 PM
More than likely he is not the future of this team.

TinyEvel
12-19-2008, 07:57 PM
Chiefs have scored an average of 27.6 points since Thiggy took over.

That's practically Arena ball!

And a HUGE difference from our first 6 games, where we scored an average of 12.5

Mr. Laz
12-19-2008, 08:25 PM
Chiefs have scored an average of 27.6 points since Thiggy took over.

That's practically Arena ball!

And a HUGE difference from our first 6 games, where we scored an average of 12.5
it's all a worthless gimmick that won't last /Mecca

penguinz
12-19-2008, 08:26 PM
We will acquire a potential QBotF in the off season.

Ebolapox
12-19-2008, 08:32 PM
I'm not against giving him a shot next season--but I'd REALLY like to somehow get a certain QB from georgia, letting him sit on the bench, and then turning thiggy into what he prolly really is, a good backup.

kstater
12-19-2008, 08:42 PM
Chiefs have scored an average of 27.6 points since Thiggy took over.

That's practically Arena ball!

And a HUGE difference from our first 6 games, where we scored an average of 12.5

I'd like to see how that's possible, considering they've only scored 27 or more three times all season. (Denver home 33(Huard), TB 27, Buffalo 31)

kstater
12-19-2008, 08:47 PM
FTR Tiny, you added up the points allowed on the Chiefs for the last 8 games.

mikey23545
12-19-2008, 08:47 PM
I can't believe how all the people claiming Thigpen has plateaued miss what I think is a huge factor in all of this - the loss of Bradley coincides with the supposed stagnation of the Chief's offense.

I think the loss of that threat in the passing game had a huge effect.

Buehler445
12-19-2008, 08:52 PM
I'm not going to be crushed if Thiggy ain't it at QB. I REALLY want him to be, but that is just to limit the ass-suckage of the team. I recognize that he probably won't be a solid QB.

But really, I think he gets some time next year or we get a washed up vet (Hoo freaking ray), because it's clear Croyle isn't the answer, and as long as he is not sucking or holding the offense back, we can get our QBoTF some quality pine time.

Jayhawkerman2001
12-19-2008, 08:54 PM
I'm just excited now because Carl has always been the worst evaluator of quarterbacks. Now that he is gone, I'd say go quarterback in the first round if the new GM is high on one. only way we can figure out if we have a good GM is to throw him into the fire when he first gets here, heh

chiefzilla1501
12-19-2008, 09:25 PM
Great out of the gate, not much for stamina...

I don't think it's an issue of stamina.

It's an issue of the Chiefs using a limited playbook that they basically wrote out of crayon on a napkin in midseason. Gailey can make creative offensive plays and packages in the first half to keep defenses off-guard, but by the second half, there just isn't enough meat in the playbook yet to keep that innovation going.

I don't think it has to do with Thigpen running out of steam or Gailey being outcoached. I think it has a lot to do with how new the scheme is.

Darth CarlSatan
12-19-2008, 09:37 PM
Okay, fuck Bob Gretz. Fuck, fuck, fuck that dumb, fat motherfucker from here to China.

I see through his ultra-weak shit; this article has NOTHING to do with Thigpen. It's a fucking Herm Bus-Chuck by proxy, and Gretz can suck my motherfucking dick for writing it.
HERMAN FUCKING EDWARDS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHIEFS PISS-POOR PLAY IN THE 2CND HALF, NOT TYLER THIGPEN.

We play football in the 1st, and then Herm's balls disappear in the locker room at half time.

Gretz:

You are the saddest sack of boot licking SHIT I have ever read. If the Chiefs or the Star hired Claythan to replace you, it would be a MONUMENTAL UPGRADE.

Your number one fan,
-DCS.

P.S. Fuck You.

Short Leash Hootie
12-19-2008, 09:42 PM
I question this. We saw one terrible QB performance in the Atlanta game using a traditional pro set.

Out of the spread, he's done much better. But I don't see steady progression. He was surprisingly good in his first game out of the spread and has looked about the same since.

Did Thigpen magically get better between Atlanta and the latter games or was he basically that QB all along and just had a bad game in a set in which he was uncomfortable?
the whole first half of the Tampa Bay game was pretty much out of a pro set...go back an watch it...he took way more snaps from behind center than he did from the shotgun.