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KCJohnny
12-23-2008, 06:17 AM
Chiefs Players: Don't Blame Herm (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AijPhYdv.AMxPUmtpMaOWCuK2bYF?slug=teamreports-2008-nfl-kan&prov=sportsxchange&type=team_report)


• Among the players lobbying for Herm Edwards’ retention as Chiefs coach was QB Tyler Thigpen (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8471/;_ylt=AoTKCtxsQAqRUpwNjbWiwcPsrZJ4), whom Edwards has identified as his anticipated starter in 2009 should he be around to make that decision.

“I hope we’re not playing for his job,” said Thigpen, who saw the Chiefs build the “Pistol” offense around his spread-quarterback abilities at midseason.

“We’ve had some tough ones this year, but I don’t think his job should be in jeopardy,” Thigpen added. “He’s done what he should have done this year. Don’t blame him at all. If anyone wants to say that, come take it up with me.”

• Added Pro Bowl G Brian Waters (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5349/;_ylt=An89QqFas4HGTGqy1hiH.oTsrZJ4), who was selected to his fourth Pro Bowl last week:

“Herm, without a shadow of a doubt, is the most resilient person in this organization. He understands the cards he was dealt when he got here (in 2006), and he understands what he has to deal with this season.

“If anybody leads by example, it’s him. He comes to work every day with the same energy, and he has not let this situation affect him one way or another. I don’t know of many coaches that could hold it together through the things we’ve had to go through for the past three years. I think a lot of coaches in that situation would be looking for the door.”


Reading the tea leaves, if Edwards is retained, Thiggy could be his guy. With Quinn Gray as a similarly styled athletic shotgun QB, the mold could be set for Pistol II. Chan Gailey is somehow omitted from the article, the true architect of the KC Pistol. I am wondering if Gailey's style of offense is ultimately welcome in Herm's scheme of maneuver. The low TOP figures (a mere 25 minutes last Sunday) and low rushing attempts (just 15 carries for RBs) are not BucBall.

I think that if Herm is retained (as some players seem to support) that Gailey should be given a blank check and maybe even some more weapons. Clearly, the emerging strength of the team is it's offense. Makes you wonder what a new GM/HC tandem might do with the Chiefs' roster...

:hmmm: (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AijPhYdv.AMxPUmtpMaOWCuK2bYF?slug=teamreports-2008-nfl-kan&prov=sportsxchange&type=team_report)

J Diddy
12-23-2008, 06:23 AM
Chiefs Players: Don't Blame Herm (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AijPhYdv.AMxPUmtpMaOWCuK2bYF?slug=teamreports-2008-nfl-kan&prov=sportsxchange&type=team_report)



Reading the tea leaves, if Edwards is retained, Thiggy could be his guy. With Quinn Gray as a similarly styled athletic shotgun QB, the mold could be set for Pistol II. Chan Gailey is somehow omitted from the article, the true architect of the KC Pistol. I am wondering if Gailey's style of offense is ultimately welcome in Herm's scheme of maneuver. The low TOP figures (a mere 25 minutes last Sunday) and low rushing attempts (just 15 carries for RBs) are not BucBall.

I think that if Herm is retained (as some players seem to support) that Gailey should be given a blank check and maybe even some more weapons. Clearly, the emerging strength of the team is it's offense.


unfortunately it's all for not if we don't overhaul the defensive staff

an adequate defense and this offense would be deadly.

KCJohnny
12-23-2008, 06:25 AM
unfortunately it's all for not if we don't overhaul the defensive staff

an adequate defense and this offense would be deadly.

I think we can get there from here. If Mr. Hunt gets up off of some of that $32 mil in cap money, we could buy a few good FAs and draft a MLB/DE that could be a gamer. I think defenses are a bit easier to turn around than offenses. I wish Gun could have devised his own scheme rather than running the Cover Who. But, I am a Cunningham homer. Gun could be the problem.

InChiefsHell
12-23-2008, 06:50 AM
In many cases, the players don't ever blame the coach. Hell, I remember a bunch of Huskers who were constantly defending Callahan...it's like Stockholm Syndrome. And when you have a bunch of young players, it's easy for them to fall into that spell. Herm is a good man, he's out there doing his best every day, and the players respect that. They are not the best eyes to use when talking about the performance of the head coach...hell, most of them don't know any other coach in the NFL, so they've got nothing to compare it too.

...guys like TG, (who I believe is pretty supportive of Herm as well), are just optimistic and positive by nature. You'll rarely hear them complain about things, and TG is usually uber-optimistic.

Dartgod
12-23-2008, 06:51 AM
4-12 and 2-13

Who should we blame?

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 06:53 AM
4-12 and 2-13

Who should we blame?

Obviously not Herm...DUH /idiot kcjohnny

Crush
12-23-2008, 06:56 AM
You cannot let the inmates run the asylum. Clark needs to fire his ass ASAP and end this ****ing travesty.

Dartgod
12-23-2008, 07:18 AM
You cannot let the inmates run the asylum. Clark needs to fire his ass ASAP and end this ****ing travesty.
Heh. Last time that happened we ended up with Frank Ganz as our head coach. :doh!:

BigChiefFan
12-23-2008, 07:22 AM
All is well in Herm land, where you can coach as shitty as the worst coaches in history, and still be endorsed by the imbecile chiefs fans.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 07:23 AM
m'eh - waters and thigpen are obviously not prepared to ever go to a superbowl, they're nothing but retards [/meccamist]

Bob Dole
12-23-2008, 07:26 AM
If Herm stays, Bob Dole fully expects him to blow up this offensive scheme the same way he insisted on blowing up Saunders' during his first season in KC. Bob Dole has no doubt that Herm is that pig-headed.

Tribal Warfare
12-23-2008, 07:26 AM
Yeah the Ppayers want Herm, they know where stand with him whether they have a job next season or not.

BigChiefFan
12-23-2008, 07:27 AM
Yeah the Ppayers want Herm, they know where stand with him whether they have a job next season or not.

Good point.

Agent V
12-23-2008, 07:29 AM
What are the players going to say? "Fire that doucebag!"?

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 07:33 AM
What are the players going to say? "Fire that doucebag!"?

No they are going to suck up so they can keep their jobs... Players love Club Herm for a reason...

MahiMike
12-23-2008, 07:47 AM
Don't you guys know by now that you can't trust anything these guys say? They're all politicians; players, coaches, GM's. What we really need is a mole. Doesn't anyone have a cousin that works as the towel boy in the locker room?

Deberg_1990
12-23-2008, 07:54 AM
In many cases, the players don't ever blame the coach. Hell, I remember a bunch of Huskers who were constantly defending Callahan...it's like Stockholm Syndrome. And when you have a bunch of young players, it's easy for them to fall into that spell. Herm is a good man, he's out there doing his best every day, and the players respect that. They are not the best eyes to use when talking about the performance of the head coach...hell, most of them don't know any other coach in the NFL, so they've got nothing to compare it too.

...guys like TG, (who I believe is pretty supportive of Herm as well), are just optimistic and positive by nature. You'll rarely hear them complain about things, and TG is usually uber-optimistic.


This....


By all acounts Herm is a good man. This is why its so hard for people to come down on him.

Dartgod
12-23-2008, 07:54 AM
Don't you guys know by now that you can't trust anything these guys say? They're all politicians; players, coaches, GM's. What we really need is a mole. Doesn't anyone have a cousin that works as the towel boy in the locker room?
No you've done it. You have exposed Nick Athan's source.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 07:56 AM
This....


By all acounts Herm is a good man. This is why its so hard for people to come down on him.

:spock:

This is a business, he isnt preforming up to NFL standards.... He might be a nice delusional guy, but we expect progress and development... He is epic failing in those areas...

KCJohnny
12-23-2008, 08:25 AM
Pretty disappointing to ascribe Stockhold Syndrome and political motivations to the players' endorsement of Herm. The only reason I changed my mind about Herm is that I was lucky enough to have breakfast with Brian Billick in FEB 08 while I was in Baghdad and he told us that Herm was deeply respected around the NFL as a quality, character leader and that the Chiefs were lucky to have him.

Now if if any of you knuckleheads have won a SB like coach Billick, please show me where he was wrong.

Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.

Dartgod
12-23-2008, 08:31 AM
...Herm was deeply respected around the NFL as a quality, character leader and that the Chiefs were lucky to have him.

I don't doubt his motivation and leadership skills. I do doubt his ability to coach an NFL team to the Super Bowl, however.

Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.Here we go...

Brock
12-23-2008, 08:34 AM
I don't care who the players like or want as a coach. The Giants used to hate Tom Coughlin, until he made them into superstars who never have to pay for another meal in NY.

Agent V
12-23-2008, 08:34 AM
Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.

What does that have to do with it?

Sure-Oz
12-23-2008, 08:37 AM
4-12 and 2-13 at this point.....there is no excuse...the man shouldn't be the HC of this team

SenselessChiefsFan
12-23-2008, 08:38 AM
Pretty disappointing to ascribe Stockhold Syndrome and political motivations to the players' endorsement of Herm. The only reason I changed my mind about Herm is that I was lucky enough to have breakfast with Brian Billick in FEB 08 while I was in Baghdad and he told us that Herm was deeply respected around the NFL as a quality, character leader and that the Chiefs were lucky to have him.

Now if if any of you knuckleheads have won a SB like coach Billick, please show me where he was wrong.

Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.

I have always said that it is truly odd that so many of the NFL coaches, players, and analysts truly respect Herm as a coach.... yet the fans here think he is the worst ever.

The difference is that they have experience with the NFL and can see the hand Herm was dealt.

Herm has only been allowed to rebuild one year. One. Sure, he has three drafts. And, oddly, those three drafts have yielded more talent than the seven drafts prior to it.

I don't expect Herm and the scouting department to be perfect. I just expect them to go about building the Chiefs the right way.

They have.

Of course the players endorse him. Of course coaches like Billick, Shannahan and Gruden have endorsed him. Of course guys like Phil Simms has endorsed him. Of course, several guys on the Jets have talked about how much better Herm was as a coach.

They all have a true knowlege base to make a decision.

I am as frustrated as the next guy about certain things regarding Herm Edwards. But, EVERY coach has strengths and weaknesses.

All the complaints about Herm were very similar to the complaints about Bill Belichick until he stumbled onto this guy Tom Brady in the sixth round.

SenselessChiefsFan
12-23-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't care who the players like or want as a coach. The Giants used to hate Tom Coughlin, until he made them into superstars who never have to pay for another meal in NY.

Oddly.... so did the fans. Hmmm. He was a much too conservative coach that was 'mediocre' at best.

Agent V
12-23-2008, 08:42 AM
This fanbase has some kind of obsession with holding on to EVERYTHING. Past and present, good or bad. Let the fuck go and let this team develop into something new we haven't seen before: a winner.

RustShack
12-23-2008, 08:43 AM
As soon as Herm is fired all the players will be on the "it was time for a change" "he just couldn't get it done" bandwagon. "our new coach is a better fit" "we have a better chance to get it done now". yada yada yada

They aren't going to bad mouth their current coach.

Brock
12-23-2008, 08:43 AM
Oddly.... so did the fans. Hmmm. He was a much too conservative coach that was 'mediocre' at best.

At least Coughlin knows what he's doing on the sidelines.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 08:45 AM
Pretty disappointing to ascribe Stockhold Syndrome and political motivations to the players' endorsement of Herm. The only reason I changed my mind about Herm is that I was lucky enough to have breakfast with Brian Billick in FEB 08 while I was in Baghdad and he told us that Herm was deeply respected around the NFL as a quality, character leader and that the Chiefs were lucky to have him.

Now if if any of you knuckleheads have won a SB like coach Billick, please show me where he was wrong.

Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.

Dude, we've heard the story. The fact BB doesn't trash the guy, doesn't make him a good coach. The fact that he's well respected does not make him a good coach. His win loss record tells the story....Period.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 08:47 AM
As soon as Herm is fired all the players will be on the "it was time for a change" "he just couldn't get it done" bandwagon. "our new coach is a better fit" "we have a better chance to get it done now". yada yada yada

They aren't going to bad mouth their current coach.

Ding Ding. As soon as he's fired they are going to return the bus chucking favor. Waters has already publicly questioned an area of Herm's approach.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 08:50 AM
As a VET KCJohnny, I will not stand behind you on this one... Herm is a marginal at best talent evaulator, pathetic X and O's coach and an overall douche bag that will never accept responsibility for his actions...

Funny how a man of the armed services with such integerity could stand behind and support someone who would sell his buddy out in a fox hole just to save his own skin, then blame it on the rest of the troops for letting him down...

Its sad KCJohnny, very sad...

Dartgod
12-23-2008, 08:51 AM
This thread has potential.

RedThat
12-23-2008, 08:51 AM
This is the way i see it,

what are the players, coaches, other analysts and executives around the league gonna say about Herm? That he sucks? That usually doesn't happen.

I think it's more about being professional then anything. And usually when the criticism does take place, a lot of times it's by an unidentified source.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 08:52 AM
Dude, we've heard the story. The fact BB doesn't trash the guy, doesn't make him a good coach. The fact that he's well respected does not make him a good coach. His win loss record tells the story....Period.


New GM keeps him or brings in someone new, I won't really care either way. I think herm is likeable and doing alot of good here, this year is remarkably different looking than last year. And the losses were based upon different things. So I don't, personally, say win or loss record is the only way to measure him, not after a these last two seasons, it's a tainted stat. IMO anyway.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 08:52 AM
KCJ I just have to say this as well. I;m sure when you met BB you introduced yourself as a Chiefs fan. So what do think he's going to say about our coach. Do you really think he's going to do anything but praise him? C'mon.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 08:54 AM
New GM keeps him or brings in someone new, I won't really care either way. I think herm is likeable and doing alot of good here, this year is remarkably different looking than last year. And the losses were based upon different things. So I don't, personally, say win or loss record is the only way to measure him, not after a these last two seasons, it's a tainted stat. IMO anyway.

When the record over a 2 yr span is that bad, it tells a lot. Not that his record should have been good, but a good caoch will find a way to win some of those close games. Herm's teams find ways to lose them.

RedThat
12-23-2008, 08:55 AM
I think Herm is a likable guy. And I think a lot of times Herms character has a tendency to overshadow who he is as a coach.

Kinda like that nice guy you hire on the job. Really likable kid, but, just horrible at doing their job. I think that best describes Herms in a nut shell.

chris
12-23-2008, 08:56 AM
Hey, you are making the MISTAKE of bringing LOGIC into this circle jerk hatred!!!!!

Nothing that is said on this site matters one bit in the decisions made at 1 Arrowhead Drive.

But these threads are good comedy.


I have always said that it is truly odd that so many of the NFL coaches, players, and analysts truly respect Herm as a coach.... yet the fans here think he is the worst ever.

The difference is that they have experience with the NFL and can see the hand Herm was dealt.

Herm has only been allowed to rebuild one year. One. Sure, he has three drafts. And, oddly, those three drafts have yielded more talent than the seven drafts prior to it.

I don't expect Herm and the scouting department to be perfect. I just expect them to go about building the Chiefs the right way.

They have.

Of course the players endorse him. Of course coaches like Billick, Shannahan and Gruden have endorsed him. Of course guys like Phil Simms has endorsed him. Of course, several guys on the Jets have talked about how much better Herm was as a coach.

They all have a true knowlege base to make a decision.

I am as frustrated as the next guy about certain things regarding Herm Edwards. But, EVERY coach has strengths and weaknesses.

All the complaints about Herm were very similar to the complaints about Bill Belichick until he stumbled onto this guy Tom Brady in the sixth round.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 08:57 AM
I think Herm is a likable guy. And I think a lot of times Herms character has a tendency to overshadow who he is as a coach.

Kinda like that nice guy you hire on the job. Really likable kid, but, just horrible at doing their job. I think that best describes Herms in a nut shell.

Totally agree. Hell, I got nothing against Herm. Other than the fact that I don't think he can take us where we need to go.

kcfanXIII
12-23-2008, 08:58 AM
to all herm apologists:
1. no half time adjustments, 8 games now have been lost by 7 points or less, all because of second half adjustments by the other team.

2. piss poor clock managment; this has plauged him throughout his coaching career.

3. coaching a brand of football that died with hair bands; i love defense as much as anybody, but you can't run a soft zone all the time. with the development of 3 rookie DBs this year, the chiefs should be running more man to man, to free up blitzers to help the pass rush. which in turn would help the DBs.

these three things alone are enough to make me wish for a new head coach. throw in some questionable draft picks, and less than average FA signings, and i begin to question his talent evaluation abilities as well. you can make as many excuses for the guy as you want, but if winning a superbowl is your ultimate goal, having a coach like herm edwards is the definition of neurosis.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 09:00 AM
As a VET KCJohnny, I will not stand behind you on this one... Herm is a marginal at best talent evaulator, pathetic X and O's coach and an overall douche bag that will never accept responsibility for his actions...

Funny how a man of the armed services with such integerity could stand behind and support someone who would sell his buddy out in a fox hole just to save his own skin, then blame it on the rest of the troops for letting him down...

Its sad KCJohnny, very sad...


I don't hate on KCJohnny for his overly opptimistic views, it's certainly a welcome change of all the hate around here. But my personal view on this comment is this;

As a general personal moral code - I don't like anything sports related to sincerely be compared to anything war related, an entirely different universe. A difference of such that it can not be properly communicated with words spoken lest with words typed on a BB.

with that, I offer no additional feedback to what he suggested as comparison nor your response to it.

Pestilence
12-23-2008, 09:00 AM
I have always said that it is truly odd that so many of the NFL coaches, players, and analysts truly respect Herm as a coach.... yet the fans here think he is the worst ever.

The difference is that they have experience with the NFL and can see the hand Herm was dealt.

Herm has only been allowed to rebuild one year. One. Sure, he has three drafts. And, oddly, those three drafts have yielded more talent than the seven drafts prior to it.

I don't expect Herm and the scouting department to be perfect. I just expect them to go about building the Chiefs the right way.

They have.

Of course the players endorse him. Of course coaches like Billick, Shannahan and Gruden have endorsed him. Of course guys like Phil Simms has endorsed him. Of course, several guys on the Jets have talked about how much better Herm was as a coach.

They all have a true knowlege base to make a decision.

I am as frustrated as the next guy about certain things regarding Herm Edwards. But, EVERY coach has strengths and weaknesses.

All the complaints about Herm were very similar to the complaints about Bill Belichick until he stumbled onto this guy Tom Brady in the sixth round.

No one is denying the fact that from a player's/coach's perspective....Herm is a likeable guy. What we're saying is that Herm is not a headcoach. He has poor game management skills and he has to have his "buddy" there to help with clock management.

Yes Herm has had 3 drafts and has brought in more talent than in the 7 years prior to him. Guess what? That's not that hard.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 09:06 AM
When the record over a 2 yr span is that bad, it tells a lot. Not that his record should have been good, but a good caoch will find a way to win some of those close games. Herm's teams find ways to lose them.


I understand that - but IMO its just a surface look. Last year sucked, it was more carl's way than herm's way (FA > Draft) - then this year seemed to flip that (draft > FA) and carl was being shown the door. I see changes with our football team that are positive and can be attributed to Herm.

I see those negatives like you do too, and most of that is his responsibility. 85-95% of it. So if the new GM wants him to go - it'll be ok. BUT if the new GM gets bought in and we see year two of a truely Herm plan, I'm ok with that too.

In fact, because I know this years players and see this years changes - I'm more interested to see that second plan of action play out, rather than start again for the third year in a row. But that may just be me.

RedThat
12-23-2008, 09:07 AM
to all herm apologists:
1. no half time adjustments, 8 games now have been lost by 7 points or less, all because of second half adjustments by the other team.

2. piss poor clock managment; this has plauged him throughout his coaching career.

3. coaching a brand of football that died with hair bands; i love defense as much as anybody, but you can't run a soft zone all the time. with the development of 3 rookie DBs this year, the chiefs should be running more man to man, to free up blitzers to help the pass rush. which in turn would help the DBs.

these three things alone are enough to make me wish for a new head coach. throw in some questionable draft picks, and less than average FA signings, and i begin to question his talent evaluation abilities as well. you can make as many excuses for the guy as you want, but if winning a superbowl is your ultimate goal, having a coach like herm edwards is the definition of neurosis.

AND I'd also like to add, poorly coached fundamentally. Bad tackling team the Chiefs are week in and week out. i love defense too, but if you can't tackle, your defense aint gonna be good. We were a bad blocking team for the majority of the time since hes been here. Thank goodness Gailey switched to the pistol offense that has helped out the blocking some. Bad blocking, bad scheming, coincedence QB's get killed.

Also, a bad strategist too. I'll never forget the game planning in that playoff against Indy. Ughh it was the most atrocious I've seen in my life.

KCJohnny
12-23-2008, 09:08 AM
I have always said that it is truly odd that so many of the NFL coaches, players, and analysts truly respect Herm as a coach.... yet the fans here think he is the worst ever.

The difference is that they have experience with the NFL and can see the hand Herm was dealt.

Herm has only been allowed to rebuild one year. One. Sure, he has three drafts. And, oddly, those three drafts have yielded more talent than the seven drafts prior to it.

I don't expect Herm and the scouting department to be perfect. I just expect them to go about building the Chiefs the right way.

They have.

Of course the players endorse him. Of course coaches like Billick, Shannahan and Gruden have endorsed him. Of course guys like Phil Simms has endorsed him. Of course, several guys on the Jets have talked about how much better Herm was as a coach.

They all have a true knowlege base to make a decision.

I am as frustrated as the next guy about certain things regarding Herm Edwards. But, EVERY coach has strengths and weaknesses.

All the complaints about Herm were very similar to the complaints about Bill Belichick until he stumbled onto this guy Tom Brady in the sixth round.

Exactly. Billick did not know me from Adam. It was a breakfast with 2-4 Soldiers present. I had no idea he was even there until I sat down with my military powdered eggs and recognized him. He could tell I was not seeking a "yes man, make the troops happy" answer.

Herm inherited a very tough situation with the Carl Peterson 20-yr plan. The coaches and players on the inside do not need this explained to them.

Otter
12-23-2008, 09:11 AM
This fanbase has some kind of obsession with holding on to EVERYTHING. Past and present, good or bad. Let the **** go and let this team develop into something new we haven't seen before: a winner.

Amen!

Seriously, let it go, move on. Herm is a Carl hire.

Half these guys still think a full back and TE should be the core of your offense.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 09:12 AM
I understand that - but IMO its just a surface look. Last year sucked, it was more carl's way than herm's way (FA > Draft) - then this year seemed to flip that (draft > FA) and carl was being shown the door. I see changes with our football team that are positive and can be attributed to Herm.

I see those negatives like you do too, and most of that is his responsibility. 85-95% of it. So if the new GM wants him to go - it'll be ok. BUT if the new GM gets bought in and we see year two of a truely Herm plan, I'm ok with that too.

In fact, because I know this years players and see this years changes - I'm more interested to see that second plan of action play out, rather than start again for the third year in a row. But that may just be me.

I see some good things he has done as well. It's not all negative in my mind, and I think we could see a big turn around next season, which is one of the reasons I want him gone now. I think he could get us to 8-8 next season, and that might earn him an extension, and that's what I don't want. I do not want him to get that extension, and then squander away the good young team that is being built with his horrible gameday coaching. I can envision us losing to an inferior team in the POs because of him. That's why it's best to axe him now, and hire someone who can take us to the promised land.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 09:12 AM
.
to all herm apologists:
1. no half time adjustments, 8 games now have been lost by 7 points or less, all because of second half adjustments by the other team. I disagree that this all falls on herm. HC plan for the year then the week. The half time adjustments fall more heavily on the coordinators and the players. I tend to lend toward Jopo's assessment on this - that the opposing players are more experience with adjustments, and are outplaying our rookies. Add to that all the changes, starting rookies at the first of the year are not the starting rookies at the end of the year. the rookie wheel is spinning at some postions. Hard to show improvement through that, yet we still have.

2. piss poor clock managment; this has plauged him throughout his coaching career. I offer no rebutal to this, certainly a weakness of his.

3. coaching a brand of football that died with hair bands; i love defense as much as anybody, but you can't run a soft zone all the time. with the development of 3 rookie DBs this year, the chiefs should be running more man to man, to free up blitzers to help the pass rush. which in turn would help the DBs. I don't like being nailed down to any one thing. He adjusted on Offense - that was good, he hasn't adjusted on D, that's bad.

these three things alone are enough to make me wish for a new head coach. throw in some questionable draft picks, and less than average FA signings, and i begin to question his talent evaluation abilities as well. you can make as many excuses for the guy as you want, but if winning a superbowl is your ultimate goal, having a coach like herm edwards is the definition of neurosis.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:18 AM
Exactly. Billick did not know me from Adam. It was a breakfast with 2-4 Soldiers present. I had no idea he was even there until I sat down with my military powdered eggs and recognized him. He could tell I was not seeking a "yes man, make the troops happy" answer.

Herm inherited a very tough situation with the Carl Peterson 20-yr plan. The coaches and players on the inside do not need this explained to them.

Poor Herm his is always the victim....

Hes never had a fair shake in the NFL, but was promoted way beyound his skill level...

It would be like KCJohnny going from an e5 or e6 to and O9.... Just isnt a good idea and innocent people would pay for that decision...

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 09:19 AM
Can we please leave the military out of this. One is game, the other is not.

King_Chief_Fan
12-23-2008, 09:20 AM
I have always said that it is truly odd that so many of the NFL coaches, players, and analysts truly respect Herm as a coach.... yet the fans here think he is the worst ever.

The difference is that they have experience with the NFL and can see the hand Herm was dealt.

Herm has only been allowed to rebuild one year. One. Sure, he has three drafts. And, oddly, those three drafts have yielded more talent than the seven drafts prior to it.

I don't expect Herm and the scouting department to be perfect. I just expect them to go about building the Chiefs the right way.

They have.

Of course the players endorse him. Of course coaches like Billick, Shannahan and Gruden have endorsed him. Of course guys like Phil Simms has endorsed him. Of course, several guys on the Jets have talked about how much better Herm was as a coach.

They all have a true knowlege base to make a decision.

I am as frustrated as the next guy about certain things regarding Herm Edwards. But, EVERY coach has strengths and weaknesses.

All the complaints about Herm were very similar to the complaints about Bill Belichick until he stumbled onto this guy Tom Brady in the sixth round.
of course some of the players want him back....their job is secure that way. You will have to give some proof about jets talking about how much better Herm was as a coach. Show the complaints about Belichick until Brady. You can't throw crap out there without proof. Chiefs been rebulding for two years.
This isn't about Herm's likeability, this is about his results. 6-26 says he is not much of a coach. THese results get people fired in the business world.

Otter
12-23-2008, 09:22 AM
Herm's worked with these guys for three years. Should it really be used as an argument in his favor that 2 players are endorsing him?

PS Germ, take note: “We’ve had some tough ones this year, but I don’t think his job should be in jeopardy,” Thigpen added. “He’s done what he should have done this year. Don’t blame him at all. If anyone wants to say that, come take it up with me.”

InChiefsHell
12-23-2008, 09:24 AM
to all herm apologists:
1. no half time adjustments, 8 games now have been lost by 7 points or less, all because of second half adjustments by the other team.

2. piss poor clock managment; this has plauged him throughout his coaching career.

3. coaching a brand of football that died with hair bands; i love defense as much as anybody, but you can't run a soft zone all the time. with the development of 3 rookie DBs this year, the chiefs should be running more man to man, to free up blitzers to help the pass rush. which in turn would help the DBs.

these three things alone are enough to make me wish for a new head coach. throw in some questionable draft picks, and less than average FA signings, and i begin to question his talent evaluation abilities as well. you can make as many excuses for the guy as you want, but if winning a superbowl is your ultimate goal, having a coach like herm edwards is the definition of neurosis.

WHAT THE HELL???! WHEN DID HAIR BANDS DIE??!??!?!!:cuss:

Agent V
12-23-2008, 09:27 AM
Can we please leave the military out of this. One is game, the other is not.

Exactly. The fact that it's being brought up is absolutely ridiculous. As if it strengthens an argument about FOOTBALL.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:28 AM
.

IF that is the case CC, then we are talking about a guy that can not lead by example or make adjustments or have his DC make any adjustments during the course of the game...

Problem is Herm was never a DC or anything other than a DB coach, He doesnt know how to make adjustments during a game...

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:28 AM
Can we please leave the military out of this. One is game, the other is not.

K my bad, I am going to be like Herm and blame KCJohnny for it...

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:30 AM
Herm's worked with these guys for three years. Should it really be used as an argument in his favor that 2 players are endorsing him?

PS Germ, take note: “We’ve had some tough ones this year, but I don’t think his job should be in jeopardy,” Thigpen added. “He’s done what he should have done this year. Don’t blame him at all. If anyone wants to say that, come take it up with me.”

Thigpen knows that a new GM, HC and OC might go in another direction, and his playing time could come to a quick end...

Fish
12-23-2008, 09:37 AM
I see some good things he has done as well. It's not all negative in my mind, and I think we could see a big turn around next season, which is one of the reasons I want him gone now. I think he could get us to 8-8 next season, and that might earn him an extension, and that's what I don't want. I do not want him to get that extension, and then squander away the good young team that is being built with his horrible gameday coaching. I can envision us losing to an inferior team in the POs because of him. That's why it's best to axe him now, and hire someone who can take us to the promised land.

This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

Dartgod
12-23-2008, 09:38 AM
I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl....
Print 'em!

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:39 AM
This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

I will protect you Herm! KC Fish to the rescue!

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa213/vampiretrickster/santiago_knight.jpg

FringeNC
12-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Why would a new GM retain Herm in his lame duck year? His other choice would be to extend Herm. Neither of the choices will be palatable to a new GM. When it was announced that Kuharich was not a candidate, Herm was effectively fired.

Brock
12-23-2008, 09:43 AM
This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

I think you'll get another season just like this one if Herm is brought back. That's why I don't want him brought back. He's a bad gameday coach.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:43 AM
Why would a new GM retain Herm in his lame duck year? His other choice would be to extend Herm. Neither of the choices will be palatable to a new GM. When it was announced that Kuharich was not a candidate, Herm was effectively fired.

Which has caused Herm to throw a temper tantrum so far... Already said he is not interested in working for a new GM and told his coaches to start looking for job...

Herm is a lame duck, Firing him on monday would be the best thing this franchise has done in 20 years.

SenselessChiefsFan
12-23-2008, 09:44 AM
of course some of the players want him back....their job is secure that way. You will have to give some proof about jets talking about how much better Herm was as a coach. Show the complaints about Belichick until Brady. You can't throw crap out there without proof. Chiefs been rebulding for two years.
This isn't about Herm's likeability, this is about his results. 6-26 says he is not much of a coach. THese results get people fired in the business world.

Foolish. These are premier athletes that care more about winning than job security. They don't want to be secure in a job for a team that is always losing.

Bellichick was fired in Cleveland. His offensive numbers were very similar to Herm's prior to finding Brady. Perhaps you aren't old enough to remember Belichick as the Browns head coach.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:44 AM
I think you'll get another season just like this one if Herm is brought back. That's why I don't want him brought back. He's a bad gameday coach.

Agree, it just further sets the development back even more.. Hell Herm and Gun cant even develop all the first day talent on the Dline...

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:46 AM
Foolish. These are premier athletes that care more about winning than job security. They don't want to be secure in a job for a team that is always losing.

Bellichick was fired in Cleveland. His offensive numbers were very similar to Herm's prior to finding Brady. Perhaps you aren't old enough to remember Belichick as the Browns head coach.

Dont care about Bellichick and the Browns, It will be years before Herm sees another HC job. He is gooing to have to prove himself as a DC somewhere in a few years... His mouth proves he can talk a big game, but his results fail his ego and mouth...

FringeNC
12-23-2008, 09:47 AM
Which has caused Herm to throw a temper tantrum so far... Already said he is not interested in working for a new GM and told his coaches to start looking for job...

Herm is a lame duck, Firing him on monday would be the best thing this franchise has done in 20 years.

I don't know. Carl did hire him, and give up a frickin draft pick for the rights to that clown. Firing Carl was a pretty good thing, too.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:48 AM
I don't know. Carl did hire him, and give up a frickin draft pick for the rights to that clown. Firing Carl was a pretty good thing, too.

Okay, I should of said second best thing to happen in 20 years...

That would of been more correct?

triple
12-23-2008, 09:49 AM
I think Herm is an average coach, except for those three hours sunday afternoon, during which he is the worst coach in the NFL

kcfanXIII
12-23-2008, 09:51 AM
this just in, herm throwing this thread under the bus.

ChiefsCountry
12-23-2008, 09:52 AM
I still think Herm should go the college route ala Carroll or Saban. He is player friendly, likes young guys, and wants total control. That is college coach to a T. Also alot of your coaching flaws can be over looked in college if you have top talent which I think Herm could recruit.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 09:54 AM
I still think Herm should go the college route ala Carroll or Saban. He is player friendly, likes young guys, and wants total control. That is college coach to a T. Also alot of your coaching flaws can be over looked in college if you have top talent which I think Herm could recruit.

hell yeah, send him to MU!

Fish
12-23-2008, 10:03 AM
I think you'll get another season just like this one if Herm is brought back. That's why I don't want him brought back. He's a bad gameday coach.

OK. I can understand that perfectly. But I still don't get the people who are afraid of Herm coming back and winning so many games that he might be kept around.

And I've always believed that "gameday coaching" from the head coach is overrated. It's a professional team. The head coach is there on gameday for motivation and guidance. That's why he's on the sideline and not upstairs watching the plays develop. The coordinators do that. They call the plays, and they have the ability to change the scheme when necessary. That doesn't resolve Herm of some of the gameday mistakes he's made, but I question whether a different coach in the same situation would have made any huge difference. When it comes down to it, the coach can say whatever he wants. But the players have to execute on the field. And no amount of coaching can force the players to execute. Without execution on the field, coaching in itself is helpless. And with a team this young, you're not going to have all the players executing well at the same time. It's part of being inexperienced.

Otter
12-23-2008, 10:04 AM
Why would a new GM retain Herm in his lame duck year? His other choice would be to extend Herm. Neither of the choices will be palatable to a new GM. When it was announced that Kuharich was not a candidate, Herm was effectively fired.

This is what I see happening. There will be a 'thanks, but no thanks' said behind closed doors and a 'Herm is great but we're going a different direction with our new GM' speech and merciful end for all of us.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 10:05 AM
This story is interesting. Apparently 95% of the Rams players want Haslett back next year as head coach.

Suffice to say players aren't too bright sometimes.


http://www.bnd.com/sports/story/589500.html

Haslett remains popular in the Rams' locker room. One veteran who asked to remain anonymous said that 95 percent of the players want Haslett back as head coach next season.

kcfanXIII
12-23-2008, 10:07 AM
merciful end for all of us.

this is what we are all hoping for.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 10:07 AM
I think you'll get another season just like this one if Herm is brought back. That's why I don't want him brought back. He's a bad gameday coach.


what mistake did he make this weekend, on the sideline - gameday.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 10:08 AM
OK. I can understand that perfectly. But I still don't get the people who are afraid of Herm coming back and winning so many games that he might be kept around.

And I've always believed that "gameday coaching" from the head coach is overrated. It's a professional team. The head coach is there on gameday for motivation and guidance. That's why he's on the sideline and not upstairs watching the plays develop. The coordinators do that. They call the plays, and they have the ability to change the scheme when necessary. That doesn't resolve Herm of some of the gameday mistakes he's made, but I question whether a different coach in the same situation would have made any huge difference. When it comes down to it, the coach can say whatever he wants. But the players have to execute on the field. And no amount of coaching can force the players to execute. Without execution on the field, coaching in itself is helpless. And with a team this young, you're not going to have all the players executing well at the same time. It's part of being inexperienced.

you are going to piss off the meccamists....

Brock
12-23-2008, 10:10 AM
what mistake did he make this weekend, on the sideline - gameday.

I don't know, I'm not basing my comments off of one game.

Fish
12-23-2008, 10:12 AM
what mistake did he make this weekend, on the sideline - gameday.

Or last weekend against Sad Diego. What mistake directly attributable to Herm made the difference in the game? This was asked last week, and nobody could provide an answer beyond "Herm sucks"....

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 10:13 AM
I don't know, I'm not basing my comments off of one game.


ok then, the last three games, or are you only going to base your opinion off of a couple games last year, when he F'ed the clock mangement.

Truth - he's not making the same "gameday" mistakes but he's still getting the blame for them, right?

+and again, I'm really only throwing off the lynch mob this site has turned into. If he goes, I won't be sad. I have said that I'm tired of all the start overs, three years running.

MikeMaslowski
12-23-2008, 10:16 AM
Suffice to say players aren't too bright sometimes.

sometimes they shoot themselves in the leg.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 10:18 AM
ok then, the last three games, or are you only going to base your opinion off of a couple games last year, when he F'ed the clock mangement.

Truth - he's not making the same "gameday" mistakes but he's still getting the blame for them, right?

+and again, I'm really only throwing off the lynch mob this site has turned into. If he goes, I won't be sad. I have said that I'm tired of all the start overs, three years running.

He has made some questionable decisions this year. Off the top of my head he had a couple of relatively short 4th downs and didn't go for them thus putting it in the defenses hand to win the game when they couldn't stop anybody all day long.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 10:19 AM
This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

I want to win a SUPER BOWL. Herm is a Marty clone, only he isn't HALF as good as Marty. I don't care about a PO appearance, or 1 PO win. I don't want a coach who makes the POs, and plays not to lose. I do not dislike Herm. I just don't have any faith in him winning a SB. How hard is that to understand? I'm sorry but unlike you, and Carl, I don't consider making the POs a success. There is only 1 winner every year, and I don't think Herm will ever be the last man standing. It's nothing personal.

Fish
12-23-2008, 10:20 AM
This story is interesting. Apparently 95% of the Rams players want Haslett back next year as head coach.

Suffice to say players aren't too bright sometimes.

Actually, that's one individual attempting to speak for 95% of his teammates.

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 10:24 AM
He has made some questionable decisions this year. Off the top of my head he had a couple of relatively short 4th downs and didn't go for them thus putting it in the defenses hand to win the game when they couldn't stop anybody all day long.

You miss my my point. Last year there were bigger questions, this year there are fewer, and no Herm hater want's to admit that. So the "horrible gameday coach" excuse carries little water.

He HAS had some bad days on that sideline, no question. And by the very nature of humanity - he's going to make other mistakes, everyone does. But when you can see improvements, then you don't keep bringing up the old mistakes. No relationship with work, spouse, family will ever be successful with that mentality.

-again, Herm stays or herm goes <>= to me, overall. Just pointing out other sides of the coin. If a new GM keeps him I'm ok with that, in fact more likely interested in the continuation of what started this year, but understand it if a new GM takes him out.

Otter
12-23-2008, 10:24 AM
ok then, the last three games, or are you only going to base your opinion off of a couple games last year, when he F'ed the clock mangement.

Truth - he's not making the same "gameday" mistakes but he's still getting the blame for them, right?

+and again, I'm really only throwing off the lynch mob this site has turned into. If he goes, I won't be sad. I have said that I'm tired of all the start overs, three years running.

What about those of us who just think his philosophy is outdated and don't like him because of it?

crazycoffey
12-23-2008, 10:28 AM
What about those of us who just think his philosophy is outdated and don't like him because of it?


You are entitled to your opinion. But how outdated is it really? just because it hasn't worked to date? It's remarkably similiar to the giants and the colts


:shrug:

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 10:30 AM
You miss my my point. Last year there were bigger questions, this year there are fewer, and no Herm hater want's to admit that. So the "horrible gameday coach" excuse carries little water.

He HAS had some bad days on that sideline, no question. And by the very nature of humanity - he's going to make other mistakes, everyone does. But when you can see improvements, then you don't keep bringing up the old mistakes. No relationship with work, spouse, family will ever be successful with that mentality.

-again, Herm stays or herm goes <>= to me, overall. Just pointing out other sides of the coin. If a new GM keeps him I'm ok with that, in fact more likely interested in the continuation of what started this year, but understand it if a new GM takes him out.

I consider not going for a short 4th down and thus costing us a win a pretty horrible decision. I remember yelling at the TV at the time what an idiot he was for putting the game in the D's hand. He has done this a couple of times this season.

But as far as the TO's go and stuff like that I haven't seen that bad side of Herm since he has been here except for the occasional incident. This year he has been a ton better with reviews that is for sure.

INMVHO the main reasons why Herm should be fired is his 14-27 record in 3 years and his inability to fix the D like he said he would.

WilliamTheIrish
12-23-2008, 10:30 AM
I don't care who the players like or want as a coach. The Giants used to hate Tom Coughlin, until he made them into superstars who never have to pay for another meal in NY.

Sometimes you have to go from taskmaster (Marty) to motivational/emotional guy (Dick), to player's coach (Herm) and back to taskmaster.

It happens all the time. And that time has come.

kcfanXIII
12-23-2008, 10:30 AM
Or last weekend against Sad Diego. What mistake directly attributable to Herm made the difference in the game? This was asked last week, and nobody could provide an answer beyond "Herm sucks"....


head coach is the one ultimatly responsible for wins and losses. they are in charge of game planning. if you blame the execution of the players, well, they're herm's players so again falls on him.

how many second half points have we scored in the last two weeks, or a better question is how many second half points have we given up all season. how many leads have slipped away? in indy in '06, how many times was LJ ran right up the center or guard's ass? why does he stick with the cover 2? (its well known cover 2 won't work without pass rush, and we traded that away.)

Fish
12-23-2008, 10:35 AM
I want to win a SUPER BOWL. Herm is a Marty clone, only he isn't HALF as good as Marty. I don't care about a PO appearance, or 1 PO win. I don't want a coach who makes the POs, and plays not to lose. I do not dislike Herm. I just don't have any faith in him winning a SB. How hard is that to understand? I'm sorry but unlike you, and Carl, I don't consider making the POs a success. There is only 1 winner every year, and I don't think Herm will ever be the last man standing. It's nothing personal.

This is literally word for word what used to be said about Cowher.... before he won the Superbowl. That's not a defense of Cowher(don't want him, don't want him), but an example of how impatient fans can be with a head coach.

I want to win a Superbowl too. I want that very badly. But it isn't simply a head coach that's holding this team back from winning a Superbowl. If that were the case, I would gladly agree with you. The team still needs pieces. And a new head coach isn't going to wave a magic wand and get us to the Superbowl more quickly. I think Herm is the right type of coach for a team in this phase of development. And if the new GM has a coach in mind with the same mindset for building a team, then bring him on in. That wouldn't disappoint me at all. I just don't want to lose the philosophy of building through the draft. I don't want to lose patience now, and make things worse. I understand that there are other coaches who would support a rebuild, but I know there are a lot more who would go in a different direction.

Fish
12-23-2008, 10:40 AM
I consider not going for a short 4th down and thus costing us a win a pretty horrible decision. I remember yelling at the TV at the time what an idiot he was for putting the game in the D's hand. He has done this a couple of times this season.

But as far as the TO's go and stuff like that I haven't seen that bad side of Herm since he has been here except for the occasional incident. This year he has been a ton better with reviews that is for sure.

INMVHO the main reasons why Herm should be fired is his 14-27 record in 3 years and his inability to fix the D like he said he would.

The 4th down calls are very questionable criticism. If they were called the same way each time, you might have a point. But we've tried some, and declined to try some. I've agreed with many more 4th down decisions this year than I've questioned. And I've seen the same trend in many other posters here...

DeezNutz
12-23-2008, 10:40 AM
what mistake did he make this weekend, on the sideline - gameday.

I agree that his game management/clock management "skills" are often wrongfully attacked.

There are two HUGE reasons why a coaching change is needed:

It's all about the performance of the D. #32 gets you the door, especially when this was your calling card when you took the job.

Couple this with putting too much of his (and the organization's) faith in Croyle, and he has to go.

StcChief
12-23-2008, 10:43 AM
well if GM is deciding on Herm....as Clark says we will likely be waiting awhile.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 10:44 AM
The 4th down calls are very questionable criticism. If they were called the same way each time, you might have a point. But we've tried some, and declined to try some. I've agreed with many more 4th down decisions this year than I've questioned. And I've seen the same trend in many other posters here...

There is no question he has gone for it more but that is because we only have won 2 games. He had a couple of instances earlier in the season and chose not to go for it and put the game on the D's shoulder when it was obvious they couldn't stop shit. What that tells me is if we were a .500 team he would hardly ever go for it.

There is no reason no to go for it when you are the 2nd worst team in the NFL because you have nothing to lose.

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 10:45 AM
This is literally word for word what used to be said about Cowher.... before he won the Superbowl. That's not a defense of Cowher(don't want him, don't want him), but an example of how impatient fans can be with a head coach.

I want to win a Superbowl too. I want that very badly. But it isn't simply a head coach that's holding this team back from winning a Superbowl. If that were the case, I would gladly agree with you. The team still needs pieces. And a new head coach isn't going to wave a magic wand and get us to the Superbowl more quickly. I think Herm is the right type of coach for a team in this phase of development. And if the new GM has a coach in mind with the same mindset for building a team, then bring him on in. That wouldn't disappoint me at all. I just don't want to lose the philosophy of building through the draft. I don't want to lose patience now, and make things worse. I understand that there are other coaches who would support a rebuild, but I know there are a lot more who would go in a different direction.
I think CLARK is ultimately the one who decided he wanted to build through the draft, and I don't see that changing with or without Herm, but I agree with just about everything you're saying. I just really don't have any faith in Herm. I'm just a football fan with an opinion though. I think Kuharich is the man that is ultimately going to build this team, and I't's going to take another coach to get our boys fitted for rings.

Kerberos
12-23-2008, 10:53 AM
Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.


"Charlie Don't Surf"?

Fish
12-23-2008, 10:53 AM
head coach is the one ultimatly responsible for wins and losses. they are in charge of game planning. if you blame the execution of the players, well, they're herm's players so again falls on him.

how many second half points have we scored in the last two weeks, or a better question is how many second half points have we given up all season. how many leads have slipped away? in indy in '06, how many times was LJ ran right up the center or guard's ass? why does he stick with the cover 2? (its well known cover 2 won't work without pass rush, and we traded that away.)

The coach is certainly responsible for wins and losses. But that has to come with some understanding of what the team makeup is, and the level of talent currently on the team. You have to factor in the team youth and inexperience. You could pick your favorite head coach and put him in charge of the youngest team in the league, and his record would be less than his coaching average. Lots of people point to the overall record as proof positive of failure, but you have to keep in mind what the expectations were before the season started. Most everyone saw what the team was going to be made of before the season started and picked us to win 0-5 games. Now our 2 wins are being held as justification for failure, even though it was seen as expected growing pains beforehand.

Second half point are a concern. But I see us doing the same things in the second half that we're doing in the first, and not executing them the same way. LJ is no longer running up the center's ass, so that has changed since last year. Cover 2 is a failure with this personnel, and a big negative on Herm's philosophy.

kcbubb
12-23-2008, 10:56 AM
This is literally word for word what used to be said about Cowher.... before he won the Superbowl. That's not a defense of Cowher(don't want him, don't want him), but an example of how impatient fans can be with a head coach.

I want to win a Superbowl too. I want that very badly. But it isn't simply a head coach that's holding this team back from winning a Superbowl. If that were the case, I would gladly agree with you. The team still needs pieces. And a new head coach isn't going to wave a magic wand and get us to the Superbowl more quickly. I think Herm is the right type of coach for a team in this phase of development. And if the new GM has a coach in mind with the same mindset for building a team, then bring him on in. That wouldn't disappoint me at all. I just don't want to lose the philosophy of building through the draft. I don't want to lose patience now, and make things worse. I understand that there are other coaches who would support a rebuild, but I know there are a lot more who would go in a different direction.

I agree! What about Tony Dungy??? Does Herm not remind anyone of Tony Dungy?

Brock
12-23-2008, 11:00 AM
I agree! What about Tony Dungy??? Does Herm not remind anyone of Tony Dungy?

Dungy has only had one losing season in his career. So no, not so much.

Fish
12-23-2008, 11:05 AM
There is no question he has gone for it more but that is because we only have won 2 games. He had a couple of instances earlier in the season and chose not to go for it and put the game on the D's shoulder when it was obvious they couldn't stop shit. What that tells me is if we were a .500 team he would hardly ever go for it.

There is no reason no to go for it when you are the 2nd worst team in the NFL because you have nothing to lose.

So there's no question he has gone for it more, because we only have won 2 games..... but we should go for it more because we are the 2nd worst team in the NFL?

beach tribe
12-23-2008, 11:06 AM
Second half point are a concern. But I see us doing the same things in the second half that we're doing in the first, and not executing them the same way. LJ is no longer running up the center's ass, so that has changed since last year. Cover 2 is a failure with this personnel, and a big negative on Herm's philosophy.
We ARE doing the same things in the second half as the 1st. The other teams are making halftime adjustments, and we are not, and have not ALL SEASON.

Fish
12-23-2008, 11:06 AM
I agree! What about Tony Dungy??? Does Herm not remind anyone of Tony Dungy?

No he doesn't. I understand they came from the same "tree". But I think it ended when they fell from the tree.

Ask me again in 10 years......

kcfanXIII
12-23-2008, 11:14 AM
The coach is certainly responsible for wins and losses. But that has to come with some understanding of what the team makeup is, and the level of talent currently on the team. You have to factor in the team youth and inexperience. You could pick your favorite head coach and put him in charge of the youngest team in the league, and his record would be less than his coaching average. Lots of people point to the overall record as proof positive of failure, but you have to keep in mind what the expectations were before the season started. Most everyone saw what the team was going to be made of before the season started and picked us to win 0-5 games. Now our 2 wins are being held as justification for failure, even though it was seen as expected growing pains beforehand.

Second half point are a concern. But I see us doing the same things in the second half that we're doing in the first, and not executing them the same way. LJ is no longer running up the center's ass, so that has changed since last year. Cover 2 is a failure with this personnel, and a big negative on Herm's philosophy.

overall record is not what i'm basing my argument off of. over the past two seasons, there has been no improvement from the players. break the last two seasons down into 4 game sections, and there should be improvement, one 4 game stretch to the next. say we were to start off 0-4. the following four games should be better, but if you break it down like this, there are an awful lot of 0-4's with a couple of 1-3's, showing little to no improvement. a good coach could coach even a young team to a better record than what herm has done with these chiefs, as i think there is some talent on this team.

kcbubb
12-23-2008, 11:17 AM
No he doesn't. I understand they came from the same "tree". But I think it ended when they fell from the tree.

Ask me again in 10 years......

do they not have the same coaching philosophy??? a lot their players are the same type of players too. Tony of course inherited Manning.

Fish
12-23-2008, 11:20 AM
overall record is not what i'm basing my argument off of. over the past two seasons, there has been no improvement from the players. break the last two seasons down into 4 game sections, and there should be improvement, one 4 game stretch to the next. say we were to start off 0-4. the following four games should be better, but if you break it down like this, there are an awful lot of 0-4's with a couple of 1-3's, showing little to no improvement. a good coach could coach even a young team to a better record than what herm has done with these chiefs, as i think there is some talent on this team.

If you haven't seen any improvement from the players then you're a damn fool.

And if overall record is not what you're basing your argument off of, then why do you go right into breaking the overall record down into increments for your support? It's still the overall record. You're still looking at the overall record, Ws and Ls, you're just breaking it up into smaller pieces. You're still looking for chronological improvement in wins and losses. You're equating improvement directly with the W-L record.

kcfanXIII
12-23-2008, 11:26 AM
If you haven't seen any improvement from the players then you're a damn fool.

And if overall record is not what you're basing your argument off of, then why do you go right into breaking the overall record down into increments for your support? It's still the overall record. You're still looking at the overall record, Ws and Ls, you're just breaking it up into smaller pieces. You're equating improvement directly with the W-L record.


really though, whats the point of improvement, if your not looking at w -l? if the cheifs were 6-25 over the last two seasons, with the majority of those wins coming late this season, that would mark improvement so the record wouldn't matter. breaking it down like i did would show improvment over time, if there were any. yes, i've seen some indidviual improvemnet, especially on offense, but we're back to where we were when herm took over, just younger. the makings of a great offense, with the #32 defense.

WilliamTheIrish
12-23-2008, 11:26 AM
For the record, I won't blame Herm. He was put in a no-win situation. Carl gave him the job, and the players. Herm chose to accept the job as it was presented.

My problem with Herm is I just don't think he's a good NFL head coach. Also, I want the new GM to name his own guy. We don't need to keep anything from this good ol' boy network that Carl built around him,to suit the players good feelings.

If Herm is lost as collateral damage, so be it.

DaneMcCloud
12-23-2008, 11:29 AM
His win loss record tells the story....Period.

No, it doesn't.

Was Dick Vermeil a shitty coach in Philadelphia for the first four years of his tenure? Was Vermeil a shitty coach in St. Louis his first two years?

I could go on and on and on around the league. Every situation is different. I don't think you'd find anyone working in the NFL that would compare Herm Edwards to coaches like Frank Gansz, Frank Kush, Richie Kotite, etc. Edwards may not be a great coach at this point but when given adequate players, he's certainly average or slightly above.

The Chiefs were in dire need of rebuilding in 2006, yet the front office decided to continue their same ways until 2008. You can't get blood from a turnip.

And anyone that expected more than 3 wins from a team that just traded its best player and is playing 17 rookies was fooling themselves.

DaneMcCloud
12-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Dungy has only had one losing season in his career. So no, not so much.

Dungy has had the privilege of working with Bill Polian and Rich McKay.

Herm got Carl Peterson and Terry Bradway (Peterson clone).

That's not quite the same.

Coach
12-23-2008, 11:32 AM
No, it doesn't.

Was Dick Vermeil a shitty coach in Philadelphia for the first four years of his tenure? Was Vermeil a shitty coach in St. Louis his first two years?

I could go on and on and on around the league. Every situation is different. I don't think you'd find anyone working in the NFL that would compare Herm Edwards to coaches like Frank Gansz, Frank Kush, Richie Kotite, etc. Edwards may not be a great coach at this point but when given adequate players, he's certainly average or slightly above.

The Chiefs were in dire need of rebuilding in 2006, yet the front office decided to continue their same ways until 2008. You can't get blood from a turnip.

And anyone that expected more than 3 wins from a team that just traded its best player and is playing 17 rookies was fooling themselves.

To be fair, this team could easily be 7-8 or 8-7 if they had a decent coaching staff, IMHO.

DaneMcCloud
12-23-2008, 11:38 AM
To be fair, this team could easily be 7-8 or 8-7 if they had a decent coaching staff, IMHO.

I don't see it that way.

Maybe if the right side of the offensive line wasn't pure and utter shit. And maybe if the Chiefs actually had a linebacking corp AND one true pass rushing defensive end.

To be quite honest, I don't even know how they've managed to be so close in so many games while lacking so much talent.

Coach
12-23-2008, 11:42 AM
I don't see it that way.

Maybe if the right side of the offensive line wasn't pure and utter shit. And maybe if the Chiefs actually had a linebacking corp AND one true pass rushing defensive end.

To be quite honest, I don't even know how they've managed to be so close in so many games while lacking so much talent.

I understand your opinion, and I respect that. The right side of the O-line is "questionable" at best to midly put it. However, if we had a defense, like you mentioned, it is possible. No argument here on the defense.

Yet, at the same time, everybody knows that Herm doesn't play to win the game. The Chiefs never had trouble being the aggressers in the first half of the game. Yet after halftime, they couldn't score. How much of this is attributed to coaching philosophy changing/adjustment? If the Chiefs had a decent coach who could manage the game clock a bit better, and doesn't go to a shell in the 2nd half, who knows where the Chiefs would be as of this point.

Fish
12-23-2008, 11:42 AM
To be fair, this team could easily be 7-8 or 8-7 if they had a decent coaching staff, IMHO.

And would that be better or worse for the franchise in the long run?

Honestly, you could argue that in a "do-over" with the exact same coaches this team could easily be 5-10 to 7-8....

8 games by less than 7 points is pretty unpredictable. It lends more criticism than support for the current coaching staff for sure, but the fact that we were "in" so many games is a positive no matter what.

Coach
12-23-2008, 11:45 AM
And would that be better or worse for the franchise in the long run?

Honestly, you could argue that in a "do-over" with the exact same coaches this team could easily be 5-10 to 7-8....

8 games by less than 7 points is pretty unpredictable. It lends more criticism than support for the current coaching staff for sure, but the fact that we were "in" so many games is a positive no matter what.

Well, it could be better or worse one way or another. Better that they are contending the AFC West with 17 or so new players on the roster, with the roster average age of 24. (Keep in mind, I'm just thinking off of my memory, so it may be off.)

Yet, the flip side, the current record that the Chiefs have ended Carl's reign, and possibly Herm's as well.

So I guess, in a way, it could be two positives, except some people could argue that the possible 8-7 record would have extended Carl and Herm.

And I agree on the "do-over" with the same coaches. I mean, Cleveland is a good example of this. Jacksonville is another (Although they did lose their DC, but the talent was there.) The NFL works in funny ways I guess.

DaneMcCloud
12-23-2008, 11:57 AM
I understand your opinion, and I respect that. The right side of the O-line is "questionable" at best to midly put it. However, if we had a defense, like you mentioned, it is possible. No argument here on the defense.

Yet, at the same time, everybody knows that Herm doesn't play to win the game. The Chiefs never had trouble being the aggressers in the first half of the game. Yet after halftime, they couldn't score. How much of this is attributed to coaching philosophy changing/adjustment? If the Chiefs had a decent coach who could manage the game clock a bit better, and doesn't go to a shell in the 2nd half, who knows where the Chiefs would be as of this point.

Again, I think it comes down to talent. It's true that the Chiefs scored 28 points in the first half and only 3 in the second. Put let's put aside the offense for a second. The defense has been pitiful. Giving up 38 points twice this season and not being able to hold leads. The Chiefs have tried since 2001 to rectify this defense with no success. The common denominator? Carl Peterson.

The Dick Vermeil/Al Saunders offense and the Chan Gailey offense has put the Chiefs in position to win more times than not. Yet, the defense never fails to hold. The offense has had just as much roster turnover (or more) during this decade yet the defense just won't improve.

If Herm's fate is to be fired, he's fired. But the bottom line is that the Chiefs need to acquire a playmaker on the defensive side of the ball AND hire coaches who create a scheme to make the current players more effective.

Otherwise, it won't matter who's the head coach. We'll still have the same results.

alanm
12-23-2008, 12:10 PM
When Herm gave the OK for his Asst's to seek employment elsewhere the writing was on the wall.
Herm is toast under a new GM.

Count Zarth
12-23-2008, 12:21 PM
Brainwashing at it's highest level.

Count Zarth
12-23-2008, 12:26 PM
On the flip side of the equation, when you have bums like Tamba Hali questioning the coaches, something is wrong.

Brian Waters also never says anything negative about the organization.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 01:52 PM
So there's no question he has gone for it more, because we only have won 2 games..... but we should go for it more because we are the 2nd worst team in the NFL?

What I am saying is we suck so Herm choosing not to be so conservative doesn't matter because there is nothing on the line.

I guarantee you if this team was fighting for a playoff spot Herm would go back into ultra-conservative mode and screw this team just like he did early in the season when he decided to put the game in the D's hands.

Does that make sense?

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 01:53 PM
And anyone that expected more than 3 wins from a team that just traded its best player and is playing 17 rookies was fooling themselves.

I guess the owner was fooling himself then because he is the one that said we need to be competing for a playoff spot.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 01:59 PM
For the record, I won't blame Herm. He was put in a no-win situation. Carl gave him the job, and the players. Herm chose to accept the job as it was presented.

My problem with Herm is I just don't think he's a good NFL head coach. Also, I want the new GM to name his own guy. We don't need to keep anything from this good ol' boy network that Carl built around him,to suit the players good feelings.

If Herm is lost as collateral damage, so be it.

Thank you, William. I know you've been tough on Herm, and this is exactly the kind of rational response I was looking for. It's amazing that so few people can even give that small amount of understanding.

Fish
12-23-2008, 02:05 PM
What I am saying is we suck so Herm choosing not to be so conservative doesn't matter because there is nothing on the line.

I guarantee you if this team was fighting for a playoff spot Herm would go back into ultra-conservative mode and screw this team just like he did early in the season when he decided to put the game in the D's hands.

Does that make sense?

Makes sense except for the part where you speak for what someone else might do...

But there is no rule anywhere that says you have to play differently when the odds are against you. Just because we're out of the playoffs doesn't mean we have to play like nothing matters.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 02:06 PM
I guess the owner was fooling himself then because he is the one that said we need to be competing for a playoff spot.

Surely you didn't think that with the roster we had that this was possible.

This was not a good roster. And most of that blame can be placed at the feet of Carl Peterson. Yes, the Chiefs have had three drafts between 2006-2008 to resolve that problem. But #1 - given reports of the power struggle in KC, it sounds like Peterson was overruling Herm on a lot of personnel decisions; and #2 - It is a huge expectation to expect a coach to completely turn around a team with only 3 years of draft picks (2 of those picks being #20 or lower) and no elite free agent acquisitions.

This is the absolute definition of trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 02:12 PM
Makes sense except for the part where you speak for what someone else might do...

But there is no rule anywhere that says you have to play differently when the odds are against you. Just because we're out of the playoffs doesn't mean we have to play like nothing matters.

You honestly believe that if the Chiefs were competing for a playoff spot Herm wouldn't go back into his conservative shell?

You and I both know he would because that is just who he is.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 02:14 PM
Surely you didn't think that with the roster we had that this was possible.

This was not a good roster. And most of that blame can be placed at the feet of Carl Peterson. Yes, the Chiefs have had three drafts between 2006-2008 to resolve that problem. But #1 - given reports of the power struggle in KC, it sounds like Peterson was overruling Herm on a lot of personnel decisions; and #2 - It is a huge expectation to expect a coach to completely turn around a team with only 3 years of draft picks (2 of those picks being #20 or lower) and no elite free agent acquisitions.

This is the absolute definition of trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

I didn't but the owner did and he is the one that made the statement.

Go back and read what he said earlier this year. He specifically said if this team doesn't compete for a playoff spot then there would be changes coming. So far he is sticking to his word.

King_Chief_Fan
12-23-2008, 02:14 PM
Surely you didn't think that with the roster we had that this was possible.

This was not a good roster. And most of that blame can be placed at the feet of Carl Peterson. Yes, the Chiefs have had three drafts between 2006-2008 to resolve that problem. But #1 - given reports of the power struggle in KC, it sounds like Peterson was overruling Herm on a lot of personnel decisions; and #2 - It is a huge expectation to expect a coach to completely turn around a team with only 3 years of draft picks (2 of those picks being #20 or lower) and no elite free agent acquisitions.

This is the absolute definition of trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

The bull shitter makes chicken shit

Fish
12-23-2008, 02:42 PM
You honestly believe that if the Chiefs were competing for a playoff spot Herm wouldn't go back into his conservative shell?

You and I both know he would because that is just who he is.

I don't agree with that idea at all. He's not going to change what they're doing because they're having success with it. If the offense is being productive, he's not going to change the offensive philosophy simply because "that is just who he is". Herm is dumb, but he's not that dumb.... If that were the case, then he never would have tried something different in the first place. He wouldn't have let Chan run the spread at all if he were indeed as stubborn as you say. He would have went down in flames clinging to over-conservative offense with a team that couldn't run it. Most Herm critics said he'd never run anything but the R2P2 offense, and they've been proven wrong.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 02:44 PM
The bull shitter makes chicken shit

This isn't about his public persona. This isn't about his ability to coach. We know that we don't like those things and I can't argue with anyone about those points.

This is the point about a rampant argument that Herm decimated this team and has done nothing to help this team rebuild. And there is too much indisputable evidence that he was handed a lemon and given very few resources to doing it and, from the sound of it, was held back by his GM from doing the things he needed to do.

There is a lot of good reason to hate and blame Herm Edwards. But the extent of the blame he gets for personnel problems ignores the huge pile of evidence that Peterson had a HUGE hand in it.

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 02:51 PM
I don't agree with that idea at all. He's not going to change what they're doing because they're having success with it. If the offense is being productive, he's not going to change the offensive philosophy simply because "that is just who he is". Herm is dumb, but he's not that dumb.... If that were the case, then he never would have tried something different in the first place. He wouldn't have let Chan run the spread at all if he were indeed as stubborn as you say. He would have went down in flames clinging to over-conservative offense with a team that couldn't run it. Most Herm critics said he'd never run anything but the R2P2 offense, and they've been proven wrong.

You could make the case that at the point that Tyler became the full-time starter the season was lost. They were 1-5 going to NY to play the Jets so they really had nothing to lose by changing it up.

If you look at how they ran the offense prior to the Jets game they ran R2P2.

But if anyone was going to get credit I would give it to Chan because this has his fingerprints all over it. When he was in Pittsburgh he did alot of different things to help Kordell.

raybec 4
12-23-2008, 03:00 PM
On the flip side of the equation, when you have bums like Tamba Hali questioning the coaches, something is wrong.

Brian Waters also never says anything negative about the organization.

I won't defend the coaching staff at all but Tamba Hali is a freakin turd. He should question his own talent and effort not the coaching staff. Yes they played him out of position but you would think that a first round draft pick's pure talent alone would keep him from completely disappearing for entire games.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 03:08 PM
You could make the case that at the point that Tyler became the full-time starter the season was lost. They were 1-5 going to NY to play the Jets so they really had nothing to lose by changing it up.

If you look at how they ran the offense prior to the Jets game they ran R2P2.

But if anyone was going to get credit I would give it to Chan because this has his fingerprints all over it. When he was in Pittsburgh he did alot of different things to help Kordell.

At the same time, his offensive approach was similar to Herm's R2P2. He always had a 1000+ yard rusher, but few QBs with more than 3,500 yards. Even Aikman.

Fish
12-23-2008, 03:11 PM
You could make the case that at the point that Tyler became the full-time starter the season was lost. They were 1-5 going to NY to play the Jets so they really had nothing to lose by changing it up.

If you look at how they ran the offense prior to the Jets game they ran R2P2.

But if anyone was going to get credit I would give it to Chan because this has his fingerprints all over it. When he was in Pittsburgh he did alot of different things to help Kordell.

They changed the offense because it wasn't working. Which still doesn't give any credence to your idea that they would change it back in spite of it's success.

And it doesn't matter when you think the season was lost. I strongly disagree that the team shared that idea. Regardless, that still doesn't change the fact that they changed from something that wasn't working, to something that works much much better. The head coach isn't going to switch back to a failed offense because he hates TDs. You can still hate Herm, but concentrate on things he's actually done instead of what your hatred tells you he might do........

dirk digler
12-23-2008, 03:36 PM
They changed the offense because it wasn't working. Which still doesn't give any credence to your idea that they would change it back in spite of it's success.

And it doesn't matter when you think the season was lost. I strongly disagree that the team shared that idea. Regardless, that still doesn't change the fact that they changed from something that wasn't working, to something that works much much better. The head coach isn't going to switch back to a failed offense because he hates TDs. You can still hate Herm, but concentrate on things he's actually done instead of what your hatred tells you he might do........

First, Fish I don't hate Herm he is a good guy just a horrible head coach.

Second, I find it funny that it took Herm 3 years and an embarrassing playoff loss to figure out that R2P2 doesn't work. We all know why they changed the offense. It was because Thigpen sucks when he is under center we witnessed first hand against Atlanta and then in spot duty in a few other games before he became the starter.

Third, it is my belief that they would immediately switch back to R2P2 if they had a QB that could play under center. Chiefzilla is correct when he says that Herm and Chan have similar philosophies on that.

I will give some credit for them changing it up but let's not fool ourselves that it came out of some sort of enlightened process. It was born out of necessity...period.

Fish
12-23-2008, 03:53 PM
First, Fish I don't hate Herm he is a good guy just a horrible head coach.

Second, I find it funny that it took Herm 3 years and an embarrassing playoff loss to figure out that R2P2 doesn't work. We all know why they changed the offense. It was because Thigpen sucks when he is under center we witnessed first hand against Atlanta and then in spot duty in a few other games before he became the starter.

Third, it is my belief that they would immediately switch back to R2P2 if they had a QB that could play under center. Chiefzilla is correct when he says that Herm and Chan have similar philosophies on that.

I will give some credit for them changing it up but let's not fool ourselves that it came out of some sort of enlightened process. It was born out of necessity...period.

I agree with most of that. But I don't think we'll ever go back to R2P2. Never as bad as what we saw in 06-07 anyway. We may end up taking a pocket passer and running more from under center, but I don't think we'll ever be back to that nastiness. I've seen too much creativity with the few tools we have now to think that a better QB and a few linemen could drag us down to R2P2 level. If we keep Thigpen, then we'll continue with some form of the spread. If we draft a first round traditional pocket passer, then that alone will bring the offense above R2P2 level.

And I don't care if it was born out of necessity. Many great things in the NFL come about that way.

Sully
12-23-2008, 04:19 PM
I wonder if Chiefs Planet was around back then, if there would've been Frank Gansz apologists?

Fruit Ninja
12-23-2008, 04:19 PM
I have said all along Herm isnt going anywhere until at least after the 09 season. I hope he's gone this year, but i dont see it.

Fruit Ninja
12-23-2008, 04:21 PM
And I don't care if it was born out of necessity. Many great things in the NFL come about that way.

Me either. If it works it works. You still need a defense and we do not have that. If you can score, i dont care how you score, but you have to play defense, bring a rock solid Defense and you have a chance to do great things in the season.

Mecca
12-23-2008, 04:23 PM
I have said all along Herm isnt going anywhere until at least after the 09 season. I hope he's gone this year, but i dont see it.

A new Gm is not keeping a guy who just went 2-22, Herm knows this, he's already calling the team "they".

Tribal Warfare
12-23-2008, 05:01 PM
I have said all along Herm isnt going anywhere until at least after the 09 season. I hope he's gone this year, but i dont see it.

Like Carl completing the entirety of his contract? Herm and Carl are attached at the hip, many have said that including some kcchiefs.com's own writers. If one goes down the other will get fired too.

KCChiefsFan88
12-23-2008, 05:20 PM
A new Gm is not keeping a guy who just went 2-22, Herm knows this, he's already calling the team "they".

Correct... the only way Herm is staying is if Clark Hunt madates that any GM who comes in has to keep Herm... Clark hasn't said that.

Herm tried to rebuild a franchise without first solidifying the foundation which is the QB, the offensive and defensive lines. That will be his ultimate nail in the coffin.

Mecca
12-23-2008, 05:23 PM
He tried with the defensive line and fucked up.

boogblaster
12-23-2008, 06:17 PM
Herm's check is already written ... Bonus and expences paid ... Hope the tears don't blind him from finding the bus door ....

RippedmyFlesh
12-24-2008, 09:07 AM
I don't care who the players like or want as a coach. The Giants used to hate Tom Coughlin, until he made them into superstars who never have to pay for another meal in NY.
Exactly.
I could care less how much the players like the club herm atmosphere.
Its like on the job if someone has a cushy boss, if a real go getter takes his place then people actually have to work hard.

Bowser
12-24-2008, 09:26 AM
It bears repeating - no GM worth a damn likely getting his first shot at the position is going to keep a coach that has gone 15-47 over the past three seasons, "deeply respected" or not.

Otter
12-24-2008, 09:36 AM
They changed the offense because it wasn't working. Which still doesn't give any credence to your idea that they would change it back in spite of it's success.

And it doesn't matter when you think the season was lost. I strongly disagree that the team shared that idea. Regardless, that still doesn't change the fact that they changed from something that wasn't working, to something that works much much better. The head coach isn't going to switch back to a failed offense because he hates TDs. You can still hate Herm, but concentrate on things he's actually done instead of what your hatred tells you he might do........

He's done. He went from bad to worse in 3 years. Here's a lollipop to help you get over it.

http://www.wonderbrains.com/images/products/l/lollipop-drum_1.jpg